Browse content similar to 13/11/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Afternoon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Abu Qatada or is released | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
from Long Marton jail after winning his case against deportation. Home | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
Secretary says she will appeal again. A long will this continue? | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
Women are being held back in the workplace by clapped-out rules, | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
says the Deputy Prime Minister as he announces that fathers will be | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
able to share parental leave. Starbucks executives tell MPs how | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
their UK businesses are struggling to make an meets foot -- to make | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
ends meet. And why cigarette papers could hold | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
the key to a peaceful future in Afghanistan. | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
Some people are gloomy about the prospect for political settlement | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
in 2014 when the troops leave but I am more optimistic for more Afghans | :01:29. | :01:37. | |
centric reasons. All that coming up in the next hour. And stepping up | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
to join us, crossbench peer and former head of the British Army, | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
General Richard Dannatt. Welcome back to the programme. Good to be | :01:46. | :01:54. | |
here. Starting with inflation, the UK's consumer price index rose | :01:54. | :02:01. | |
sharply to 2.7% in it sober up from 2.2% in the month before. -- in | :02:01. | :02:08. | |
October. That is a bigger league fan and economists expected. -- a | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
bigger leap than. It is worth putting these figures into context. | :02:12. | :02:20. | |
One year ago, CPI was running at 5%. Clearly, from where we were, we are | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
in a better position. It is disappointing to see inflation | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
rising. As the ONS has said, two factors led to this. Food costs in | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
particular, relating to the harvest, which was poor because of the | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
weather, and secondly tuition fees, which has been greater than | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
expected on the impact -- in terms of the impact on inflation. We are | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
joined by Stephanie Flanders. The Government is saying there is a | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
one-off jump because tuition fees are included in the index but as I | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
understand it, energy prices coming through for the winter are not | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
included. It is true it is part of the utility price rises, and that | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
is included in this number, which is one reason why it has risen. | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
There is an extra 0.3% Tchoutou that the increase in tuition fees. | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
There is also some food price inflation coming into the shops, | :03:22. | :03:30. | |
which we have seen influence the prices. There is no guarantee that | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
inflation will go back down again and there is expectation in the | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
City that the Monetary Policy Committee is going to have to put | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
up with inflation bouncing around a bit and maybe even going higher | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
than this in the next few months. They had hoped that it would be | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
heading firmly back to 2%. If the downward trend has come to a halt, | :03:49. | :03:58. | |
and this may not be a halt, what is the implication for government | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
economic policy? It means that the Bank of England may have less room | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
than we might have hoped to do more to stimulate the recovery. I know | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
that people were thinking that the last quarter may not show laughing | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
like the growth that we had seen in the last three months and that | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
there is the risk that the recovery might grind to a halt. The Monetary | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
Policy Committee may feel it has less room to do anything about that, | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
and in fact the monastery Policy Committee knew about this figure | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
last week when they met and this may be one reason why they did not | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
create more money through quantitative easing, to support the | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
recovery. It does not necessarily mean that we will stay at this | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
higher level. Most people expect inflation to be coming down. We are | :04:44. | :04:51. | |
not seeing domestic price pressure. University fees, food price | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
inflation, energy price inflation, but we're not seeing wages picking | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
up, and that may mean that they can keep interest rates very low but it | :05:00. | :05:09. | |
does limit their room for manoeuvre. Thank you very much. General, you | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
have a degree in economic history and do you care to comment? I think | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
what Stephanie said his right. Her last comment is very interesting. I | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
think the Bank will have less and room to manoeuvre because the | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
quantitative easing has had an effect on inflation. One thinks | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
that inflation rising is a bad thing but I think a bit of | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
inflation is important. Also, we should see interest rates coming up | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
which is good for savers, but not borrowers. It is time for our quiz. | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
As we know, Nadine Dorries is taking part in ITV's I'm a | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
Celebrity. Last night, she took part in the first bush tucker trial. | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
That is the name of the game. The public have voted for her to do | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
tonight's trial as well. But which of these people have said they have | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
voted for her to stay there and added that they have her voting No. | :06:04. | :06:12. | |
On speed dial? Was a David Cameron, George Osborne -- was it David | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
Cameron, George Osborne, Eric Pickles always mention? At the end | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
of the show, we will have the opportunity to give you the correct | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
answer. If you don't know, we will tell you | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
and give you her speed dial number as well. Within the last hour, Abu | :06:28. | :06:38. | |
:06:38. | :06:39. | ||
Qatada has been released from jail. There he is, pulling out in a taxi. | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
I wonder if the taxi driver knew who he was picking up. He has been | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
held there for deportation. He was supposed to be going to Jordan. | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
They have spent years trying to get in there but yesterday, the Special | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
Immigration Appeals Commission ruled that he could not be deported | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
to Jordan after all. Indeed, he would have to be released. Theresa | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
May has said she will appeal the decision but success is not | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
guaranteed. It could take months or years of further work, especially | :07:08. | :07:17. | |
for lawyers. Abu Qatada first arrived in Britain | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
from Jordan in 1993. In 1999, he was convicted in his absence on | :07:23. | :07:29. | |
terror charges in Jordan. After a series of arrests by UK police, the | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
Government first began deportation proceedings in 2005. But in 2008, a | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
court of Appeal ruled that sending him to Jordan would breach his | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
human rights because a court case would rely on evidence which had | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
been obtained through torture. In 2009, five law lords ruled that he | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
could be deported after all falling assurances from Jordan that he | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
would receive a fair trial. In 2012, the European Court of Human Rights | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
block that and despite further attempt by the Home Secretary to | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
overcome the problems, the British Special Immigration Appeals | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
Commission has now ruled that he should be released again. He will | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
be under a curfew for 16 hours a day and will be under restrictions | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
on whom he meets. Some estimates put the cost also their rooms at �5 | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
million a year. -- the cost of surveillance. Theresa May says she | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
will make a further appeal to try to get deportation back on track. | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
We are joined by Chris Bryant and by Geoffrey Robinson, human-rights | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
lawyer. Chris Bryant, the last government could not get rid of the | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
sky and this government cannot. Will we ever get rid of him? -- | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
read of this guy. I also. Part of the problem is that when James | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
Brokenshire was sent out to Jordan, he did not end up with a strong | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
enough set of reassurances and Theresa May's own visit did not | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
have enough on top of that. When she decided not to appeal the | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
decision, earlier this year, effectively as the court said this | :09:07. | :09:16. | |
week, the threshold for deportation rose. She has got quite a lot of | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
egg on her face. It is right to appeal. Is there something you want | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
to make party points over? Pupil failed to do it. It may be wrong to | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
send him back but that is a different issue. I do not think it | :09:29. | :09:36. | |
is wrong. I am not disputing that. I'm saying that this government | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
tenure Government have failed. Right -- rather than making party | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
points, maybe you should sit down and make a general policy. | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
offered to come to some kind of agreed position. But the difficulty | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
is we have the law and we have to meet the law. The thing the | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
Government did not do, when the writing was on the wall, and it was | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
very clear, we had to get absolutely solid, cast-iron | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
assurances from the Jordanians and that did not happen. But Geoffrey | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
Robertson, the Jordanians do not necessarily have to get that. They | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
are sovereign power and we seem to be getting into the situation where | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
we are now trying to write to the Jordanian criminal code. Well, | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
Theresa May has egg on her face because she told parliament she has | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
succeeded. Clearly, when cross- examination came in court, it | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
turned out she had failed. I think there is an argument that Abu | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
Qatada or has, a loathsome view -- there is an argument that he has a | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
lows than view and should not have been given asylum. That is | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
something to look at. There have been mistakes made by the | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
government along the way but ultimately, I think we can see Abu | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
Qatada getting out of his taxi today and feel a certain pride that | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
in very few other countries with this happen. We have independent | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
judges who, no matter how hysterical the Government is, no | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
matter how 99% of the public wanted to go, we to uphold the rule sloth. | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
This is what makes Great Britain great. -- the rule of law. I was | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
with you until you said you wanted me to be proud that he was getting | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
out in a taxi. It is not just that he has lows some views, lot of | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
people have laws and views. That is not the issue. Quite a few of them | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
come through the studio! Some of them are even presenters! | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
It is not about whether you like or dislike someone's used, it is about | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
whether their views are dangerous. Everybody has agreed that the way | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
this man has conducted and propounded his views is dangerous | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
to national security. The question is, we do not seem to have any | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
means of being able to bring a prosecution. The Jordanians want to | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
be helpful, and they have changed elements of the constitution but I | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
do not think of... Are you proud to be British when you see him getting | :12:02. | :12:10. | |
into the taxi? I think he is making an ass of us. I think two things, | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
if he has done things that we think are wrong, we should consider | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
charging him but that is unlikely to happen. Apparently the evidence | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
is not admissible. I think we should challenge of the apparently. | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
I think the other thing that is important, Jordan we have very good | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
relationships with and we are friends with them. We can trust | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
them and I think we should keep the dialogue going and suggest that | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
they might look closely at whether they will make a definitive | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
statement about not including evidence obtained under torture. | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
That may come at the appeal stage. As I understand it, one of the | :12:46. | :12:54. | |
original concerns was that he might be in danger. The Jordanians said | :12:54. | :13:02. | |
they looked at that, and to Theresa May thought they had got that | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
sorted, but the appeals court did not think it was cast-iron. Three | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
judges heard the evidence of an they cross examined it and they | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
decided that the evidence against him was very thin and that all it | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
was came from people who had been tortured. On that basis, Jordan had | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
not gone far enough. What should you do? It should go further to | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
exclude a law -- it pass a law to exclude evidence obtained during | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
torture and then Theresa May can try again. This is where I want to | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
make a very slightly partisan comment. Theresa May could have | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
known that in 2000 than 10 when she started making statements to the | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
House of Commons about it. -- in 2010. It was absolutely clear that | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
that would be necessary and we set it in Parliament. I do not think | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
she comes out of this well because I think she went there and sent to | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
junior minister. They came away with what they thought were easy | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
assurances but there should have banned the deal harder. Can I come | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
back your point? Many people do not understand why we have not been | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
able to bring charges to him. Because we have no evidence. | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
evidence is incredibly thin and the only evidence is obtained from | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
people who have been tortured. There is no way around that? Judges | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
are not Newsnight journalists, they do not make allegations without | :14:27. | :14:34. | |
evidence. That is where Newsnight went wrong. We are in the business | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
of prosecuting people on evidence that will stand up in court. And if | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
that is the case, there are takes the issue back to the Jordanians. | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
At the gig goes back into their court. Will they or will they not, | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
and I hope that they will consider it, change the law in a small way. | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
But this is the bit that... That is still in Theresa May's court. She | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
has to appease the courts and she needs to be very clear. First of | :15:05. | :15:12. | |
all, I think she needs to appeal. Or if there was judicial evidence... | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
A do-nothing she will succeed on appeal. There is a wider points to | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
get involved in, why should we have given him asylum in the first place | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
when he holds views that are fundamentally and violently anti- | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
democratic and racist? That is because of the reading of the | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
refugee Convention but in my view, we are not obliged, as some think, | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
to give people who are violent racists and sexists refuge here on | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
a permanent basis. We can give them temporary refuge if they are about | :15:46. | :15:56. | |
:15:56. | :15:58. | ||
It is about time you had a policy. Let me just bring you back, that is | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
an interesting context, let me try to tell you something you may be do | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
not know. King Abdullah is coming to London next week. I know that | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
because I was invited, I did not know until I was invited to a | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
lecture at the Policy Exchange, just round the corner next week. So | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
what should the British government say to the king now that he is | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
here? What should we try to require of them, keeping in mind that he | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
may say, look, we are a sovereign nation, we have done what we have | :16:28. | :16:34. | |
got to do? To be honest, thus far, they have proved themselves to be | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
as helpful as one could want, and what I do not understand is why the | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
Home Secretary did not come back with the goods, basically, because | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
I understand... She has got a chance this week. Yes, indeed. | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
think they should be lifted away from party politics. We all want to | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
see the back of Abu Qatada. We are a good friend of King Abdullah, we | :16:57. | :17:05. | |
need to say, if that is what you can you have signed the torture | :17:05. | :17:13. | |
Convention... Widened to go as far as that convention allows and have | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
pale against the reception of evidence obtained by torture? -- | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
why don't you go? And if the king is watching, we would like to | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
invite him to reply! He wants to know what the next director-general | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
is up to. I met him at a gym in Paris once. The next director- | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
general? The King of Jordan, you are obsessed with the BBC! I wanted | :17:39. | :17:46. | |
to point out this was a BBC Three programme until you mentioned it! - | :17:46. | :17:53. | |
- BBC-3. You are going to leave us now, but we thank you for joining | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
as, we are keeping you here, willingly, I hope. Geoffrey | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
Robertson, you are staying with us because one of the biggest | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
challenges facing President Obama is what to do about Iran. Tensions | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
have been running high over Tehran's nuclear programme, and | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
during the presidential elections Barack Obama said that negotiations | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
could not go on forever, adding that the clock is ticking. | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
Yesterday Iranian media reported that the regime has launched a | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
military drills across half the country. A spokesman said the | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
exercise would send out a strong warning to those who threaten Iran. | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
Their real military capabilities are disputed, and the accuracy of | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
these pictures cannot be confirmed, but it is clear that despite | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
sanctions, Tehran continues to develop its nuclear programme, and | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
Western nations believe it is aimed at developing weapons. Geoffrey | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
Robertson is still with us, and he argues that by spring of next year | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
President Obama will be under huge pressure to back an Israeli attack | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
on Iran and Britain will have to decide whether to support it. Is | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
there any doubt that Iran is trying to make a bomb? I don't think so. I | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
think the evidence is overwhelming that they have been trying to make | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
a bomb, frankly, since the Shah! He decided that they would ultimately | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
make a bomb, the Ayatollah when he got in said, no, this is a Western | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
weapon, so it is in for. But then Iraq started to use chemical | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
weapons on the Iranians, and they changed their mind. In 1985-86, | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
they hired this Pakistani bomb maker, and they have been trying, | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
edging their way towards a nuclear weapon, and they are probably | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
within one year. Netanyahu, who is likely to be re-elected in January, | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
and that is half the problem, thinks they should be attacked by | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
the spring or early summer. He has been threatening that for some time, | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
and we know that relations publicly between the Israeli premier and | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
President Obama are not, perhaps, what they might be. President Obama | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
certainly talked tough during the election, obviously he had to equal | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
Mitt Romney, but is there any appetite in America for any sort of | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
military action? The Jewish lobby have a great deal of influence. | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
President Obama said at the United Nations that there was a coalition, | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
he actually used the word coalition, and that is a signal for Britain, a | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
coalition that would stop Iran getting a nuclear weapon. Now, that | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
means that he will be brought in, I would have thought, to an attack, | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
and we will have the old Iraq debate about the legality at the | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
United Nations some time next year. It will be a re-run of Iraq, and | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
there is no doubt that under international law there is nothing | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
to stop Iran going nuclear. This is the problem. The Non-Proliferation | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
Treaty has broken down, North Korea has 12 nuclear weapons, Pakistan | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
has 110, and the Islamic extremists attacked an airbase and almost got | :21:05. | :21:14. | |
one. We are in a new area, we are out of the Cold War, we are out of | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
mutually assured destruction, and we are in a new area where nukes | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
are proliferating and something is going to go wrong unless we stop | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
them. Is it the right thing for America and President Obama to | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
threaten attacking the military and nuclear capability in Iran, or is | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
that not going to make the Iranians feel even more, you know, indignant | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
about what they are doing, and they will just pursue it anyway? I think | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
the Americans are right not to take the military option off the table, | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
but it is the one you do not want to use. Sanctions would appear to | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
be working rather more effectively and diplomatic dialogue, more so | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
than people previously thought. The worst case situation, and it is | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
interesting that the Iranians have put his propaganda film at, they | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
are trying to show their military capability is strong. Question, do | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
the Americans, the Israelis have the military capability | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
significantly to degrade their nuclear weapons capability? | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
Israelis do not on their own, do they? Who knows? But the wider | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
point is that we do not want to bomb Iran to stop them having a | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
bomb, and then wind up with a bomb Iran that has a bomb. Much better | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
to learn to live with and Iran with a bomb over time. Sanctions are not | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
working. They are making the public and the regime even more determined, | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
that is the evidence in my book. Diplomacy is not working. The | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
European Union people are being just simply strung along by the | :22:41. | :22:48. | |
Iranians. The problem with bombing which no-one realises, everyone | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
thinks it is going to be 10 people dead, but it is not. There are | :22:54. | :23:02. | |
5,000 people working at Natanz, 371 tons of uranium hex of chloride in | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
the places that are going to be bombed. Let that go up, let the | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
wind blow it across the city, and you have tens of thousands of | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
people who will die. Is Britain going to sign up for that? Very | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
briefly, then, if Britain is forced to take tides, whose side should | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
they back? Neither side, I do not think Britain should allow Diego | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
Garcia to be used, which it may well be forced up the island in | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
Indian Ocean. We should not allow up our facilities to be used. We | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
should be neutral, because it would be an unlawful attack. Geoffrey | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
Robertson, thank you very much. Can you sign the book and leave a copy | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
behind? Yes, of course! Not often you get something out of a lawyer, | :23:47. | :23:57. | |
is it? I definitely want it for free! It is not often that | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
multinational coffee chains inspire sympathy with us on the Daily | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
Politics, but one firm, I have got it here, told MPs yesterday that it | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
is struggling to make ends meet here in the UK and not doing nearly | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
as well as some of its competitors. I will not tell you which one it is, | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
but it has got bucks in its name. If not in its profit line, | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
according to the company, boom- boom! They are one of three | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
companies to appear before the Commons Public Accounts Committee, | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
where MPs were curious to know why they paid so little tax in the UK. | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
Let's see how well or badly they If you make losses in the UK, which | :24:41. | :24:49. | |
is what you are filing, over 15 years, what on earth are you doing | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
doing business here? We know that we must be in the UK to be a | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
successful global company. But you are losing money here! Why don't | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
you focus on the US, where you are making money? We have had | :25:03. | :25:09. | |
tremendous optimism... 15 years, you have given the UK business 15 | :25:09. | :25:16. | |
years, you are still making losses, and yet you are carrying on, if it | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
is true. I assure you it is true, it is very unfortunate, we are not | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
pleased about the financial importance. Everything we have said | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
is historically true. It does not ring true. It is hard to believe, | :25:30. | :25:37. | |
when I rushed down Victoria Street, and a double Paranal Karthi leaves | :25:37. | :25:47. | |
:25:47. | :25:47. | ||
you in such a bad way, for 14 years. -- .. Paranal Kotri. You have paid | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
1.6 million in corporation tax, you are either running the business | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
very badly, or there is a third of going on. This is the most | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
competitive market that we operate in. There is outstanding | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
competition, consumers have much choice, more choice for consumption | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
of coffee per capita than anywhere else in the world. Your entire | :26:09. | :26:16. | |
economic activity is here in the UK. I pay in pounds, it never comes off | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
my bank account in euros. Your entire activity is here, yet you | :26:21. | :26:27. | |
pay no tax year, and that really riles us. It riles us. Can I | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
clarify that? We do pay corporation tax... Tiny in relation to your | :26:33. | :26:40. | |
turnover. Tiny! The other thing I would also highlight is that we | :26:40. | :26:46. | |
have paid in excess of 100 million in payroll taxes in the last five | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
years, we have paid tens of millions in business rates in the | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
past five years... I have heard this argument already, so let me | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
kill it, because it makes me cross. So does every other business. | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
you to adopt a more robust business model where you work, God forbid, | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
making a profit... We are making a profit. A real profit, rather than | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
just part of a tax avoidance scheme. I have to say, we are paying the | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
tax we are required to under the law. We are not avoiding tax. | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
are avoiding tax! Would you leave, and if you left, if you had to pay | :27:27. | :27:34. | |
higher tax and make decent profits, where would you go? The issue of | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
your understanding is about, you know, if Google was a British | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
business, founded in Cambridge, we would be in a very different place | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
here, because the profitability would rightly suit with where the | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
technology and innovation happens. But Google is a US business, and | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
the activity that happens in the UK, even if you describe it as sales | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
activity, which is not exactly what we do, we could still get that | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
activity from the open market at the costs we are paying to the UK | :28:01. | :28:11. | |
:28:11. | :28:11. | ||
With me now, the Conservative MP Charley Hull thick, a former tax by, | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
and Kevin White, managing partner of deVere Group, a financial | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
advisory firm. -- Kevin L Beck, a former tax lawyer. Let us assume, | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
and we have no grounds for saying otherwise, that they are behaving | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
entirely legally, doing their tax returns with in the law. I put it | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
to you that companies with combined revenues of �3 billion only paying | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
corporation tax of �30 million, there is something wrong with the | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
system. Yeah, what they are doing is entirely legal. We have | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
established that. I think that the tax that they are paying is not an | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
awful lot, but they are within their rights to do it. That is not | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
what I am asking you. I am saying to you, if the system is taxing | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
revenues of 3 billion and ends up getting tax revenues of only 30 | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
million, there is something wrong with the tax system. It is a lower | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
rate of tax than I pay, and people on average income paid, that almost | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
everyone in the country. I agree, things need to be changed, and that | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
is the overall factor. What should be changed? You have got three | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
issues, a local issue, which is a UK tax issue, then the European and | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
global. Been global multinationals, do you go down the route of | :29:31. | :29:37. | |
escalating it to the G20,... OECD countries. Or do you look at | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
it in the UK? I think a possible solution is a turnover tax. You | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
cannot mitigate turnover, otherwise you are reducing sales, and you | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
cannot do that. A small proportion of turnover in each country would, | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
I think, be fair, transparent and ultimately where we want to get to. | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
Why do you think that our tax system, meant to be one of the most | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
sophisticated in the Western world, put it this way, when our viewers, | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
all of us are paying a lot of tax as individuals, a lot of people | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
have been tracked into the 40% band, people pay 20%, quite low down the | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
income scale, why is it that these companies making so much money pays | :30:18. | :30:27. | |
Two things have happened, the rise of the internet age, with companies | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
like Amazon trading from Luxembourg even though they are fulfilling in | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
the UK. The first thing we need to do is update tax presents. We need | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
to have laws that say the presence of Amazon is in the UK and they | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
should pay tax in the UK. Presumably they do have the | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
infrastructure. They must exist somewhere! | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
The manner was the former MD of Amazon UK is on the BBC executive | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
board. -- the man who was. If they had a UK MD, then they are in | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
Britain. Exactly right. If you buy a book from Amazon, they will say | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
you were buying it in Luxembourg and they fulfil from the UK. It is | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
a Royal Mail stamp that goes on it and it comes to you. It is counter- | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
intuitive that they should be able to say they are not here. What | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
constitutes having a presence in Luxembourg to justify that that is | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
where their tax and not here? their argument is that that is | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
where the place of sale takes place. That is what is wrong. It could be | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
a filing cabinet in Luxembourg. pretty much. Could that be done | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
easily? They are currently doing it. They are not working out of the | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
current laws. What I meant was, could the law be changed in what | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
our MP calls attacks presence to make them legally present for tax | :31:49. | :31:55. | |
purposes in Britain? I think the war can change. The politician and | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
the MPs have the power to do so and I think this is deflected from the | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
fact that they are abroad. The fact is, the reason why the companies | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
are able to do this is because over the years politicians of both | :32:10. | :32:20. | |
parties have made the tax code so complicated that you hire expensive | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
accountants and you can find 101 ways of not paying. That right. If | :32:25. | :32:32. | |
you knock out transfer pricing mark ups and deductions, you could | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
actually have a really low rate of tax, simple and strong. And that is | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
what I am advocating. And that would put you out of the job. | :32:41. | :32:49. | |
think it would. But there is more to financial planning than this. | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
Where are you on this, General? thing for us this veritable law and | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
the letters bowl-off. It is perfectly possible that these big | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
companies, that it can be predicted how much business they do and the | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
mechanism can be calculated. That is logical. The law must be | :33:10. | :33:17. | |
adjusted. Let's take Starbucks, it is on the report to be taxable | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
profit once in 15 years. -- it has only reported a taxable profit once | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
in 15 years. I am assuming that everyone watching this programme | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
thinks that is not credible. Credible, no. Legal, yes. But is it | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
that a right. That is what needs to change. Can we do it on a | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
unilateral basis? You mention that it has to be changed in three | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
places. If we do it alone, will that not just our businesses? | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
Starbucks cannot go elsewhere, or it can if it wants to, there are | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
plenty of other coffee shops. We could have a look at the entire | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
corporation tax regime and ask ourselves, can we have a simpler | :34:00. | :34:10. | |
:34:10. | :34:18. | ||
tax system? But your government, you went for tax simplification. | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
You promised it but in fact you have added several hundred more | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
pages to the Tax Guide that you inherited from Gordon Brown. There | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
is the question of counting pages. The more important question, | :34:31. | :34:40. | |
retinues. From 1997 until 2010, income tax revenues went up by 80%. | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
Corporation tax went up by 6%. What is happening has been happening for | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
one time and is a systemic issue that we need to call to account. | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
there any evidence the Government is going to do that? Will we see | :34:52. | :35:01. | |
any action in the autumn statement? I am campaigning on it. It is going | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
to take time and there is no quick fix. It will take years but people | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
need to be patient. This government has the ability to make a | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
difference. More years of tax free coffee profits. Hopefully not too | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
many. Briefly, will we see action in the United States? I hope we | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
will see moves in the right direction. The Deputy Prime | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
Minister is a man who takes being a father of three seriously. He has | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
reported to do the school run on a regular basis and cabinet meetings | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
had been rearranged around parenting. This morning, he | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
announced he is going to allow dads to share more parental leave with | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
their partner after the birth of their child. Where say we're going | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
to consult with businesses and make sure that mums and dads give the | :35:47. | :35:54. | |
right notice to employers. -- we are saying we're going to consult. | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
My view is that given that women are so important to our economic | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
success as a country, and it is often them who are bosses and have | :36:03. | :36:09. | |
particular expertise, giving them the flexibility to come back to | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
work earlier or to come back to work for a certain period of time | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
to complete a particular task, that would help employers rather than | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
hinder their own. We are joined by the Employment Relations Minister, | :36:22. | :36:29. | |
Jo Swinson. And Liz Gardiner, who works for the charity Working | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
Charities. What is your take on what has been announced? It is a | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
good news story on the flexible working reforms, which has a great | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
business success and good news for families. The right to request it, | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
not get it. There was nothing for business to fear. We hope that will | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
start to change workplace cultures. I think it is a good sign that the | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
Government has listened to concerns and has come up with a greater plan. | :37:01. | :37:07. | |
I do not understand, I thought that businesses already have to consider, | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
even on a voluntary basis, they had to look at requests for flexible | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
working. The federation for Small businesses says, of why do we have | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
to have this imposed upon business? The current right to request is | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
available to parents of certain ages. Extending that actually helps | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
to change the culture about the workplace, to be more in tune with | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
the 21st century at people can work remotely. Our present culture | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
Hearts back to the last century. This makes it easier. Any employee | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
that makes the request, that needs to be considered by the employer. | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
It could mean a practice that the mother who has just had a child | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
takes the first four months on -- months off, and then the father | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
takes a four months and then the mother has another month off. Do | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
you accept that that is hard? they want to chair -- to share the | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
lead -- share believe, they cannot do it concurrently at the moment. | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
They cannot do that at the moment. Also, they cannot break into | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
different walks. If mum goes back to work, she will lose the rest of | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
her return to league -- maternity leave, even if the employer wanted | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
to come back. Employers will have to agree the pattern if they want | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
to do it that way. But to give more choice to mums and dads to find a | :38:34. | :38:40. | |
solution that works. Having a child is difficult and stressful enough | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
without all of this additional stress. Does it go far enough? | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
Would you like to see the right to refuse taken away from firms? | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
think the benefit of the right to refuse is that it is a reasonable | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
right. It has been causing a quiet revolution in the workplace. What | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
is the evidence, and I keep seeing that it makes for a happier | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
workplace, but more productive as well. What is the evidence to | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
support that he Mac the House a strong business case. It leads to | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
reduce absenteeism and sickness. And reduce stress. We have done | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
some research that says there is positive correlation between people | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
flexible working and their performance, in the quality and | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
quantity of the work they produce. But there was a plan to give | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
fathers six weeks' paid paternity leave. How long has that been | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
shelved for? In the challenging economic circumstances, would | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
recognise that would mean an extension to the total time that | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
parents could take off and we thought that doing that did not | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
make most sense. That said, with the ability to share, fathers will | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
be able to have extra time off if that is what the family things | :39:52. | :40:00. | |
works for them. The shared parental leave is due to come in in 2015 and | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
once that is in place, the Government is tempted to review | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
that with the Topshop and extending the daddy month to have more | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
paternity only. But interesting that you think it is not right for | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
the time now. Is it even right to put any extra burden on business at | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
a time when the Government desperately wants businesses to | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
take on more people? That is why we are not extending the total time | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
that a couple can have out of the workplace. While employers | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
employing dance might have an issue, the correlation of that is that mum | :40:37. | :40:43. | |
is coming back to work sooner. There is an economic benefit. At | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
the end of the day, we will not get out of the recession that we're in | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
if we are not using all the talent in the workforce at the moment, too | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
many women do not have enough choice about their role in the | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
workplace. This flexibility will help that. Will it help business be | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
more productive? It is interesting to see where the evidence lies upon | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
the face of it, a would have thought that small businesses feel | :41:06. | :41:14. | |
quite challenged. If you only have a dozen employees, that could make | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
it quite difficult to get the company going. After all, the | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
bottom line is getting the economy going again and getting the country | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
back into a stronger position. And perhaps when we have done that we | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
can then enjoy some more or three arrangements to look after children. | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
That is what the Federation of Small Businesses has said. Let us | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
be clear, we cannot suddenly stop having 80 child because we are in a | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
recession. We need to find a way... Of the request was there for people | :41:46. | :41:54. | |
with children. In terms of requests, that is just be reasonable. In | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
terms of parental leave, there is no additional time off out of the | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
workplace, it is just about allowing mums and dads to choose | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
how to split it. It is not an extra burden but in fact it could help | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
businesses. There is more flexibility. If a mother wants to | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
come back and help or a Pacific -- on a specific client, that | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
flexibility is not currently there. Difficult to manage for a small | :42:21. | :42:29. | |
company or a medium-sized company. There will be very few families | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
that we're asking to take it -- that are taking a job and are they | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
coming and going. I think it is an option but what is the alternative? | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
This is the 21st century and the United maternity discrimination | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
happening in the workplace is also costing the UK a huge amount of my. | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
What is the alternative to match I think it is a perfectly reasonable | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
way to go forward but I think what has been announced allows the | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
request to be placed. If it was more than that and there | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
was pressure to employers to allow more time off, I think that would | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
be the wrong place to be. But I think it is something that we can | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
enjoy more was economy has got better. The idea it is, does that | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
make companies more efficient. It is a moot point. | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
British troops have been in Afghanistan for over 10 years. They | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
are due to leave in 2014 along with the American troops. But the truth | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
is, when the Americans leave, we have no choice whether to leave for | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
not. A lot of people are pessimistic about what will happen | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
in Afghanistan after words but rather than predicting a Taliban | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
takeover, the director of the Royal United Services Institute, | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
Professor Michael clerk, he has higher hopes for the country's | :43:46. | :43:56. | |
:43:56. | :43:57. | ||
future. In Afghanistan into this no one, in | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
the early part of the war, Afghan forces would often confronted other | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
as if they were about to fight. And the night before, people would pass | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
from one line to another with cigarette papers. Along the | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
cigarette papers were written little messages. In the morning, | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
the battle would not take place and some of the forces we eventuate. | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
Some of the sources -- some of the forces would disappear. The | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
cigarette papers say the battle. We might do better to remember this | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
when we get close to the deadline of military withdrawal. People are | :44:33. | :44:39. | |
starting to get nervous. Of course, Taliban leaders and Afghan warlords | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
were never going to a conference room in Geneva and the glossy it | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
for months on end about the fine details of a political settlement. | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
But as we get closer to 2014, they might well start going backwards | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
and forwards with political cigarette papers and that the 11th | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
hour, produce a political settlement on the future role | :44:58. | :45:05. | |
Afghanistan. Why do I think this? For one thing, Taliban commanders | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
to matter have will be fighting for 20 years. They have got a personal | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
battle almost -- battle honours are now they want a political pay-off. | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
They know that the Afghans will not thank them for plunging the company | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
into civil war and they have learned that they are pretty | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
unpopular. Lots of them fear that Taliban. They do not support them | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
even in the heartland of the South. Although they were never going to | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
run to negotiate with Hamid Karzai, they believe that they will they | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
cannot control the country they have earned the right to some | :45:34. | :45:43. | |
decisive say. Go into a room. It will probably go down to the wire | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
in 2014 and that will make us feel uncomfortable but we should not | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
mistake Afghan posturing for a lack of political nous. They understand | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
the value of cigarette papers. I have a pretty good idea if they | :45:55. | :46:05. | |
know when to start passing them Michael Clark joins us now, as does | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
Paul Flynn, and Richard Dannatt is still with us. What would success | :46:08. | :46:14. | |
in Afghanistan actually look like, bearing in mind many feel that the | :46:14. | :46:21. | |
current policy is failing? I think success now looks like some Afghan | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
negotiated future after 2014, so that whatever happens next is in | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
the hands of the Afghans themselves. It is not a future in which the | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
Taliban will not play a part, but it should be a future in which | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
there is no room for Al-Qaeda war- related groups anywhere in | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
Afghanistan. If there were a single attack on the West that seemed to | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
originate from an Al-Qaeda Group in the areas of Afghanistan, that | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
would look like strategic failure. Could you give any reassurance that | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
would not happen at the moment? If the original aim was to certainly | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
damage the Al-Qaeda network, if not destroy it altogether, and remove | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
the Taliban from power, have we achieved that? Well, yes, Al-Qaeda | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
is not in Afghanistan, the Taliban are not in any governmental sense, | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
but they will move back in in some way. Remember, the Taliban have no | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
love lost for Al-Qaeda. All of the indications are that the Taliban | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
know that they do not want to get involved with Al-Qaeda, those guys | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
are trouble. There is a fair chance that in thinking through a | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
political settlement, they will want to reassure the West that Al- | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
Qaeda have no place in Afghanistan. Present at like that, the Taliban's | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
options will be more limited as we approach 2014, that we will have | :47:36. | :47:43. | |
gained some success. There is a dose of reality in this, because | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
the wind that doesn't send so many young soldiers to die, and it was | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
repeated many times in the Commons, is that our people are going to | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
Afghanistan to protect us from a Taliban terrorist threat. This is | :47:56. | :48:05. | |
an untrue, it has always been a lie, and we know that Al-Qaeda were a | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
spent force many years ago. But we see ourselves in a very dangerous | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
situation, and more civilians died in August that almost any month | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
previously, 374. We had the attack on Camp Bastion, �200 million of | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
damage done to aeroplanes, and we have seen this awful phenomenon of | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
our soldiers not being killed in battle, being murdered by the | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
people who we are arming, financing and training, and I think this is | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
an optimistic view but realistic. The Taliban will be in control in | :48:39. | :48:45. | |
the 2015-16 in parts of Afghanistan. We went there, part of the reason | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
was to get rid of them, but we will have failed on so many counts. | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
is where the trust has gone, those attacks of Taliban dressed as | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
policemen or infiltrating into Afghan forces, that is what has | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
made people's faith of any success being impossible. Let us deal with | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
that narrowly. That is a tactical matter, albeit one with strategic | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
consequences. There I was the Taliban leadership, I would be | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
doing something pretty similar. Originally they took us on with | :49:17. | :49:23. | |
direct fire weapons, we killed a lot of them. They switched to IEDs, | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
very effective. We have been able to mitigate that affect, so they | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
have switched to another point of weakness, because we know our exit | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
strategy is for their security forces to take responsibility for | :49:36. | :49:42. | |
the country, so they have begun to erode the trust of us and of them. | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
It is a clever tactic, but it does not change the Big Issue, which is | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
the strategic issue that Michael Clark is talking about, that the | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
settlement was always going to be political. What we have done, just | :49:54. | :50:01. | |
to finish this point, and it has cost us 437 British lives since | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
2006 in the main, of course it has swept Al-Qaeda out of the country, | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
but it has given the Afghans a chance of a better future. That is | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
all we could have done. If they take their chance, that is great. | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
Every time an army exits, more people die when they pull out, and | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
the longer we stay there, the more British soldiers will have been | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
sacrificed. That is a sweeping generalisation, I do not accept | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
that. The Canadians and the Netherlands have pulled out with | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
their heads held high after making great sacrifices. We should be | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
doing the same. There is no purpose Dame there when we know that our | :50:38. | :50:44. | |
soldiers are exposed to greater danger than ever before. -- no | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
purpose staying there. If you say a political settlement is possible | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
and will come in those last few months before exit in 2014, why not | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
do it sooner? We cannot guarantee it will come, but the Taliban, we | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
know from contacts with their leaders and representatives, and a | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
number of us have tried to develop those contacts through friends and | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
friends of friends, we know they are looking towards the future. We | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
know that they do not believe they can control the country the way | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
they used to before 2001, but they believe the have their right to | :51:16. | :51:22. | |
save. They have taken a few things on board. They have produced an | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
education policy earlier this year. You can believe it or not, but the | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
fact is that the Taliban are relatively realistic, and they do | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
not want to plunge Afghanistan into another 20 years of civil war. We | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
may or may not be able to work with that, and it will be a rough ride, | :51:38. | :51:44. | |
because we do not have any direct negotiating credit with them. | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
got his information from informal talks. The distracted diplomacy, | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
you talk to people who talk to people, you create interesting | :51:52. | :52:02. | |
:52:02. | :52:04. | ||
distractions. -- it is tack true -- it is track two diplomacy. There | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
will be a political outcome, whether it is a settlement or not, | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
and it will be very Afghan. We are probably not going to be part of | :52:11. | :52:17. | |
that. Wouldn't you take any of that as having some sort of optimism? | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
The Taliban are running courts, collecting taxes. They know we are | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
going, they are preparing for us to go, but the truth is that we tried | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
to bury the awful reality that is there. I cannot read out in | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
parliament the names of the dead, I did in the past but it is forbidden | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
now. The bodies of the soldiers that comeback on no longer seen on | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
television, they are taken around the backstreets, and we tried to | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
deny the truth that we are sending young men to die, to serve a | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
politician's mistake. They are acting as human shields for | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
politicians' reputations, and we would like to believe they could be | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
a neat end to the war, this is a grand strategy, and it will all end | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
up happily ever after. It is not. It is going to be an awful mess. | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
would be tragic if there is civil war at the end, if at the end what | :53:09. | :53:14. | |
has happened is that allied forces have ended up training pub a whole | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
generation of Afghans who then end up fighting in a civil war. They | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
will not give their loyalty to an election rigging President. They | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
will not give their loyalty to us, to foreigners. They will go back to | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
their tribal loyalties, as Pascoes and Uzbeks. It is a pretty bleak | :53:34. | :53:40. | |
assessment. It is true. I think Michael's argument is a very fair | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
one, that they will be a political settlement. We might not like it, | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
but the Afghans are people at the end of the day. Do they want | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
another 25 years of civil war? History does prove otherwise. | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
will be a settlement made by political cigarette papers, they | :53:57. | :54:03. | |
will do a typically Afghan deal. went in there to clear Afghanistan, | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
438 British soldiers have died, and people will save for what if the | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
Taliban are controlling it? Thank you all very much. | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
News from Southwark Crown Court that discussion is taking place | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
where a jury has found former Labour MP Margaret Moran guilty of | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
fiddling expenses claims when she was an MP. Now, localism is one of | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
the coalition's buzzwords with Conservatives and Lib Dems | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
embracing it enthusiastically, and there is even a Localism Bill aimed | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
at enshrining new powers for local communities and law. Now the | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
Government's commitment to localism is being questioned. The growth and | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
infrastructure bill is up for discussion in the Commons today. It | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
aims to stimulate growth by giving more power to central government | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
over planning decisions. Who would have thought it? Actor and | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
presenter Griff Rhys Jones is also the president of Civic Voice, and | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
he has been touring Yorkshire over the past few days, getting to local | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
-- trying to get local people more involved in planning decisions. He | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
is concerned the new legislation makes it more difficult. He joins | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
us now from Leeds. Good to see you again. What are you doing in | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
Yorkshire? I am going around meeting various civic societies and | :55:16. | :55:22. | |
sort of encouraging people. I see. I hope you are succeeding! What do | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
you make of this? On the one hand the government says it wants more | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
localism, and on the other hand it says if we are going to get the | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
economy going, we have got to centralise things a bit. I think it | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
is rather disturbing, because there is no doubt that one can welcome | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
localism, one can welcome Mayo planning and a lot of things that | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
are going in to allow citizens, ordinary people to be more involved | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
in the planning decisions and to try to sort of put a wedge between | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
what seems to the local authorities and the centralised government and | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
big business tending to want to carve up city centres. And I think | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
what has been missed out of that, clearly, is a local boys, people | :56:03. | :56:11. | |
who live there. Sussex societies, they have a role to play. -- civic | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
societies. What seems to have happened is that somewhere along | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
the line, members of the Treasury and members of the Cabinet have | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
said, no, no, we have to have building and development willy- | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
nilly to get ourselves out of this economic downturn at the moment, | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
and so by giving them this power, you are encouraging them to stop | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
things happening. Eric Pickles has introduced a growth and | :56:37. | :56:42. | |
infrastructure bill which appears to ride roughshod over all those | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
intentions. Isn't it the fact of central government in Britain for | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
many years now that all governments are in favour of localism until the | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
locals do something that government does not like? Well, this Bill | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
seems to be enshrined in short term emergency measures, which might be | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
necessary to help us out of what is undoubtedly one of the series of | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
depressions that all capitalist societies go through and will at | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
one point we will see the light on the other side of the hill, but | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
while things are very low, it is apt to enshrine legislation which | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
will affect us for the next 30 years, until somebody changes it, | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
which seems to require that the Secretary of State can allow any of | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
his friends, anybody he wants, any political sponsors, to go ahead. | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
What is really worrying about his infrastructure built is that they | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
used to be referrals to the Secretary of State if you were | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
worried about power stations or schools or roads, but now it | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
absolutely says quite clearly business developments should also | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
have the right to appeal to the Secretary of State. Where does the | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
limit come? A very interesting tension, Griff Rhys Jones, thank | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
you for joining us, come back to see us when you get back to London, | :57:59. | :58:04. | |
good to have you on the programme. There is just time to get the | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
answer to the quiz. Remember that? We asked you which of these people | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
voted for Nadine Dorries to stay in the Australian jungle? They added | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
that they have no voting No. On speed dial! David Cameron, George | :58:19. | :58:25. | |
Osborne, Eric Pickles will Louise Mensch? I think it is Louise Mensch. | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
It is not, actually, it is Eric Pickles, who said he would be | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
phoning in every night to make sure she stays in the jungle. That is it | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
for today. Thank you to our guests, particularly Lord Dannatt. The One | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
O'Clock News is starting on BBC One. Parliament is in recess, no | :58:43. | :58:48. |