20/11/2012 Daily Politics


20/11/2012

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Afternoon, folks - welcome to The Daily Politics. Do you want to pay

:00:40.:00:42.

less for your energy? The Government wants you to, and this

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afternoon the Energy Secretary, Ed Davey, will unveil proposals which

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he hopes will simplify the system and reduce the complexity and price

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of energy deals. Countryside calling - if you can

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get a signal. We'll be quizzing the Environment Secretary, Owen

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Paterson, on rural concerns. How happy are you? The Government's

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first ever survey about Britain's well-being has been published, and

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believe it or not, we're a pretty cheeful lot.

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And from happiness to the bustle of Westminster. Yes, our

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parliamentarians are a busy lot - but would they ever job share?

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Believe it or not, one MP thinks it's exactly what they should be

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All that in the next hour. And with us for the duration today is the

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former editor of Country Life magazine Clive Aslet. Welcome to

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the programme. Now first this morning, let's talk about the

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Tories' new communications guru, the Australian strategist who

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helped Boris win office for a second term, Lynton Crosby. Because

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the former deputy chairman of the Conservative Party Lord Ashcroft

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has this morning being offering Mr Crosby some advice. Our political

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correspondent Carole Walker has more details. Carole - what advice

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has Lord Ashcroft offered? Well, we need to remember first of all, Jo,

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that Lord Ashcroft starts this advice by pointing out that he

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argued against having Lynton Crosby brought in to Conservative Central

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Office. Lord Ashcroft is concerned too much on the core vote. Lord

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Ashcroft is saying that it is very important pour the party to reach

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out, not just to consolidate, not to rely on Ed Miliband winning it

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for the Tories, not to write off the Liberal Democrats. And he goes

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on also to give some rather pointed advice at the end. You will

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remember that once the adviser becomes the story, he says, that is

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not a good thing. That is a reference to the fact that Lynton

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Crosby has already appeared on the front page of the Mail on Sunday,

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with allegations that he swore about Muslims during the election

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campaign for Boris Johnson, something which Mr Crosby says he

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does not recall. But he is a controversial figure, and Lord

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Ashcroft is clearly not entirely enthusiastic about his return to

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the Conservative fold. Do you think this advice will actually be taken?

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It is interesting. I think Lynton Crosby brings a particular skill,

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let's say, to election campaigns. He was in charge in 2005, when

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Michael Howard was the Tory leader, when he was accused of dog whistle

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politics, talking a lot about immigration, in the thought that

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this might play on people's fears. At the time he said it was an

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important issue, but I think Lynton Crosby will bring something of a

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focus to the Conservative Party campaign, but he is somebody who is

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known for his focus on some call Conservative principles. There will

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be others around him who will be arguing that the party needs to do

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much more to open up, to modernise, to reach out. And I think that is

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are likely to be a point of tension come the next general election

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campaign, especially as we do not yet know exactly how it is going to

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work out between him, George Osborne, who is in overall control,

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Grant Shapps, the party chairman, and several other senior characters

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who will be involved in this campaign. With us now is Tim

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Montgomerie, the editor of Conservative Home. Do you welcome

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this? I do, very much. This is a man with a lot of experience in

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Australia and London, a man who knows how campaigns are run. There

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are a lot of journalists who run campaigns, but Lynton Crosby's

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opinion is that those are not the ideal people to run campaigns. He

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chooses two or three big themes and makes sure the party focuses on

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them, which is usually the secret of winning elections. What about

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Number Ten Downing Street, is everybody behind this the Pope went

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-- this appointment? I did not know, but I think this is something David

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Cameron and George Osborne have wanted for quite some time. It was

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George Osborne initially who suggested that Lynton Crosby should

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go and help Boris Johnson, when he was first running for the Mayor of

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London. There is an important point made by Lord Ashcroft, which is

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that surely, to win the next election, you have got to look

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beyond the call vote. That is Lynton Crosby's talent, but is it

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going to limit the success of the Tory party if he does not look

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beyond that? People have misunderstood a lot of his

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qualities. Yes, Lynton Crosby has certain views, which might be more

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on the traditional side of politics, but that is not his main quality.

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What he has been recruited for is to run a campaign, to focus on the

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things that matter, to be disciplined. I do not think the

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Tories will suddenly revert to the kind of campaign that Michael

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Howard had in 2005. Actually, Lynton Crosby had quite little to

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do with that, he joined it just nine months before the election.

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All the campaign themes had largely been decided by Michael Howard.

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What Lynton Crosby will do will be to do a better job of making sure

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that the David Cameron message, which is not going to be

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revolutionised, is properly communicated to voters. This is

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incredibly good news for the Conservative Party. What about Lord

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Ashcroft, is he still a powerful figure? Absolutely. I have to say

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that partly because he is my proprietor. But one huge advantage

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which Michael Ashcroft brings is that he is a seasoned campaigner,

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but he also conducts some of the biggest opinion polls in British

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politics. He is more knowledgeable about what the average British

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voter is thinking than most people. When he says something, it is not

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just one businessman thinking aloud, it is very much grounded in an

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awful lot of market research. there could be some tension between

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the two men, and one thing Lord Ashcroft said was that he wanted to

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avoid a repeat of 2010, when the campaign was run by a range of

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people. You will still have Grant Shapps, George Osborne, Lord

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Ashcroft, Lynton Crosby... He says, there are as many ex-Lib Dem voters

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who might vote Tory as there are Tories who might switch to UKIP -

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do you agree with that? Yes, that is what the market research says.

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Surely disillusioned Lib Dem voters would be voting Labour? A lot of

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the opinion polling suggests that there are a lot of voters waiting

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to see whether the economic medicine but dish government is

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dispensing will work. -- that this government is dispensing. We have a

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character of the person inclined to vote Lib Dem, but the trick for

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this government is, if it succeeds economically, which will be Lord

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Ashcroft's main message, the competent delivery of economic

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progress, then we can begin to get voters from all of the main parties.

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Do you think the Government and the Conservatives particularly have

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focused too much on deficit reduction, and that beyond that,

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has not really spelt out clearly enough to voters what a

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Conservative-led government will do? This is one of the difficulties

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of coalition. In terms of the core vote, you might think it was rather

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a good idea. Certainly, we might be seeing that one of the big ideas of

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the last election is now rather unravelling, the idea of the ablest

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:09:03.:09:07.

candidates. -- A-list candidates. Even though the idea was to make

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the party look a bit more like the country at large. Yes, but I think

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it has left some people wondering who they are. I think that list has

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been mixed. Many of the most talented new members of the intake

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are the kind of people but give me hope in the future of the

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Conservative Party. They are incredibly talented. Perhaps the

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media have spotlighted some of the most controversial figures. But the

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talent is there for the future. The combination of David Cameron

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pushing more diversity and the membership pushing back a little

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bit, and insisting that only the cream of that list should be

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selected, has produced one of the most exciting Tory intakes in a

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generation. Do you agree with Lord Ashcroft that Ed Miliband could be

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as much of an electoral liability as Gordon Brown? That is difficult

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to say at this moment. One thing the Conservative strategists need

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to be careful about is not to demonise Ed Miliband. That is what

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Barack Obama did to Mitt Romney, and it is the reason why Mitt

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Romney won the first presidential debate, and made the race closer

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than it might have been, because he showed up and -- at that debate and

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was not the caricature he had been made out to be. If Ed Miliband

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turns up at that first debate and confounds how the Conservatives

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have presented him, that is dangerous. Michael Ashcroft's

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General point that we have to win the next general election with a

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positive case has to be right. what about when he says, the Tories

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need to keep the loyalists, win back the detractors and win over

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those who are only considering the party, well, that is everybody. It

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does not take an electoral genius to work that out. The difference is

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that Lord Ashcroft has found out exactly what those different groups

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are thinking. That is where the genius, if you like, comes in. But

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I don't think anybody is alert any illusions. To win the next election,

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it is going to take almost a miracle, because they could not win

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the last one under almost perfect electoral conditions. It will need

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all of the best brains in the party to work together. When you say, you

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rather welcome the idea of concentrating on the core vote,

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what are some of the things you would like to see? What would you

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say to David Cameron and George Osborne? I think voters would like

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to hear a very robust stance on Europe, I think they would be

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worried by the noises which have been coming out about planning, for

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example, which is something which is close to people's hearts. It is

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not necessarily to do with is a lot of money, but I think it would

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worry a lot of people. I think there is a feeling that it is very

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difficult for people who have worked hard and put their children

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through private school, for example, to get them into university. People

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would feel this is discriminating against the very people the Tories

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should be standing up for. wanted to ask another question --

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you wanted me to ask another question, didn't you? But I am not

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going to. Last month,. Stood up at PMQs and pledged to do something

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about energy pricing. His announcement knocked rather a lot

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of people, including his own Energy Secretary, for six. The saga was

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:12:40.:12:41.

completely -- was quickly dubbed combi-shambles. Last year the Prime

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Minister promised faithfully that he would take action to help people

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reduce their energy bills - can he tell the country how it is going?

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We have encouraged people to switch, which is one of the best ways to

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get your bills down, and like animals, which I am sure he will

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welcome, that we will be legislating so that energy

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companies have to give the lowest tariff to their customers,

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something Labour did not do in 13 years, even though the leader of

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the Labour Party actually could have done, because he had the job.

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So, how are the Department of Energy and the regular going to

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deliver on this pledge? The Lib Dem Energy Secretary will use an

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appearance before the Commons Select Committee to lay out his

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thinking on reforming tariff structures this afternoon. Instead

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of hundreds of different tariffs currently offered by energy

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suppliers, each company is expected to be allowed only four. Customers

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will be expected to be put on the cheapest rate for them. This,

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believes the Government, will meet the Prime Minister's pledge for

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them to have to give the lowest tariff. But will this put a hold to

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rising energy prices, or which just remove competition, and mean some

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people on the best deals end up paying more? I am joined now by the

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Shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint, as well as by Richard Lloyd.

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Richard, this is what you have been waiting for - are you pleased? It

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is part of what we have been waiting for, and it would be good

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news for most consumers, who currently sit on terrible, old,

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outdated, expensive tariffs, and are not moving around in the market.

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One in 10 people say they find the energy market clear enough to

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navigate around, but for the vast majority of people, who do not

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switch, sitting on expensive and outdated tariffs, being put by

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default on the best tariff would be good news. The question is, will

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that tariff Beechy, will it be affordable, will it be fair? Most

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consumers think what is going on in the energy market is completely

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under transparent. Are the generators selling power to the

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retailers at a price which has been rigged? They will have to do a lot

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more. How do you understand it is going to work? One envisages the

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idea that we are all on the lowest across, pretty well all on the same

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tariff - how can you guarantee that we will be paying less, if I am

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already on a pretty good deal, because I have been online and done

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my research? For people like you, there may be no gain. But for most

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people, who currently sit on these high-cost, and competitive tariffs,

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the impact on the new, default tariff, should save them some money

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in the short term. But they will stay with the same supplier. What

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this will not guarantee is that they can get the best deal in the

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market. The Government need to make it easier for people to switch from

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one supplier to another, to put competitive pressure on the

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suppliers. That will keep the default price down. In theory, it

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should work, but the backdrop is one of rising wholesale energy

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costs, with government policy costs adding to bills, so the general

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trend will probably still be prices going up. Caroline Flint, the

:15:53.:16:03.
:16:03.:16:05.

Government have pulled this off, The proposals, which there should

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be four tariffs. If you're buying gas, you have four tariffs,

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variable, fixed rate and maybe a green one as well and you can

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choose what else you want to do. The truth is with each of those

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there is one price. You can be on the cheapest but not the best deal.

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We've been saying, before we even get to the price setting at tariff

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stage, we have to make sure the market is competitive so we are

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sure that the tariffs we're being asked to choose are the fairest

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ones. What with last week and the all the talk and debate about how

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wholesale prices were allegedly being rigged, there's a concern

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about whether we're getting the best deal. This doesn't take us

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further forward because the Government has nothing to say about

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the energy market. It's a bit unfair to say it's not taking us

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forward. This is the start. This will simplify the tariff system.

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You welcome that obviously. Ofgem's proposals are one that's we support

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to simplify it. When David Cameron said we're going to force the

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energy companies to put people on the cheapest tariff. The truth is

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that's the one that is online. We know many older people aren't

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online because they can't engage with that technology. Is that true,

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Caroline is saying that you may get the cheapest tariff but not the

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best deal. Surely the cheapest is the best deal. It depends on

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whether you want to fix your tariff or go with a standard variable rate.

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It will be like the mortgage market. The simplicity and the ability for

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consumers to shop around that will keep prices in check. It remains to

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be seen whether the Government is going to go far enough to make it

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easy for customers to tell, at a glance, what is the cheapest price

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between suppliers as well as being put on the default cheapest tariff

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with the existing supplier. could have done this when you were

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in power. Ed Miliband could have done this. It is possible. At the

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time when David Cameron stood up in the Commons, we all thought, he's

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misspoken, but he's proved actually, to some extent, that you can

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achieve this. You can simplify the tariffs and perhaps get the price

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down for a lot more people. Labour didn't do that. Actually he hasn't,

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from what I understand, achieved what he said in the House of

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Commons, a few weeks ago. Basically, simplyifying the tariffs, everybody

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agrees with. That at the points in which the tariffs are set, if we're

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not convinced it's done in the most competitive way, then even though

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you may choose a tariff - let's be clear about this, within the

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tariffs there will only be one choice - it is the cheapest, but

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it's the only tariff. That's the trick that Cameron is trying to put

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across today. It doesn't assure the public that the way the market

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works and we did go into the last general election, saying the market

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needed reforming. What's your response to today's announce snplt

:18:58.:19:02.

I think the energy crisis has been predicted for such a long time,

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it's a shame we're in this position and it's taken so long to sort it

:19:06.:19:12.

out. As a consumer, simplicity will be a very good thing because it is

:19:12.:19:16.

baffling. The proposals seem to have come from Ofgem. They have

:19:16.:19:21.

brought the idea forward. You want to abolish Ofgem. Part of the

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proposal they put forward and other things they've done in the last

:19:24.:19:29.

year is catching up on the job they should have done some years ago. We

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do not believe, looking at last week for example, they were on the

:19:33.:19:39.

case in terms of concerns about the way wholesale prices were being

:19:39.:19:43.

fixed. It's also why we believe, actually, we should have a new

:19:43.:19:47.

regulator with the powers that when wholesale prices fall that is

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forced on the energy companies to pass on to bill payers. Do you

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agree? Whatever the regulate oris called, whatever it is about, it

:19:55.:19:59.

should be a consumer champion, in a market where we're completely

:20:00.:20:05.

outpowered by the energy giants. Has jom receive -- Ofgem failed in

:20:05.:20:09.

that? We're not pleased they've done everything they can for the

:20:09.:20:12.

consumer. They're starting to flex some muscle. Whatever it's called,

:20:12.:20:16.

it needs to be a pro-consumer watchdog on the side of the koust

:20:16.:20:20.

mer facing up to these energy giants. You'll have to sack

:20:20.:20:26.

hundreds of energy experts pay them off and they'll get rehired under a

:20:26.:20:31.

new regulator, why not just reform? I think everyone we agree that the

:20:31.:20:35.

esteem of this sector that it's very important to us as consumers

:20:35.:20:40.

but the economy as well has never been as such a low ebb. We think

:20:40.:20:43.

there has to be radical change, including an Energy Bill that

:20:43.:20:46.

introduces more competition, but also a tough new Energywatch dog

:20:46.:20:50.

that can command the confidence of the public and if that means change,

:20:50.:20:55.

that means change and we need to do that. More competition, more

:20:55.:21:01.

companies, mortarives, we go round in a circle to a SIStive that will

:21:01.:21:04.

be complicated. -- system that is complicated. We're acknowledging

:21:04.:21:08.

that the liberalised market isn't working, not working in the

:21:08.:21:12.

interest of consumers. I think the watchdog that scrutinises the way

:21:12.:21:16.

these rules are put into place and enforces them will need to be very,

:21:16.:21:21.

very tough on suppliers that have a track record of doing their best to

:21:21.:21:25.

confuse consumers, avoid them getting on the best price. How this

:21:25.:21:29.

is done is as important as the announcement We have six companies

:21:29.:21:33.

that dominate 99% of the market. None of the others can get in in

:21:33.:21:36.

the way it's structured at the moment. They generate energy, sell

:21:36.:21:41.

it to themselves and then on to us. You didn't get anywhere with it

:21:41.:21:44.

either. We went into the last election saying that had to change

:21:44.:21:49.

and we needed a different pool. There was a popular survey, three

:21:49.:21:52.

quarters said they believed, 74% of people thought energy companies

:21:52.:21:57.

should be stripped of the power to set prices entirely are Ofgem

:21:57.:22:00.

taking on the responsibility instead. Would you agree to that?

:22:00.:22:04.

Yes, I suppose that would be a very good idea if it reflected the

:22:04.:22:08.

wholesale price. I would like to know that the cost of the renewable

:22:08.:22:12.

obligations which are put on. People get very upset about the

:22:12.:22:18.

cost of renewables. We've talked endlessly about that being more

:22:18.:22:21.

transparent. Are you expecting an announcement on that as well?

:22:21.:22:25.

They're all over the shop on renewables with the Energy Minister

:22:25.:22:27.

anti-renewables and the Secretary of State in favour of them.

:22:27.:22:32.

terms of the bills, people don't know, do they? People don't. I

:22:32.:22:36.

think it's true that the suppliers should be forced to do much more to

:22:36.:22:40.

complain what is driving costs here. As Caroline said we've had

:22:40.:22:44.

speculation that it's been a rigged market. There's a lot of Government

:22:44.:22:48.

policy that's passed through to our bills. People don't know about that.

:22:48.:22:53.

There are two things that need to happen - one, the suppliers need to

:22:53.:22:56.

tell us in plain English, what we're paying for. Secondly, we need

:22:56.:23:00.

some confidence that the price we're paying is fair. That's why

:23:00.:23:04.

we've been saying to Number Ten, look, don't just move on how many

:23:04.:23:08.

tariffs are available, but you have to reassure consumers that the

:23:08.:23:11.

default price you're paying will be fair. That means you have to have

:23:11.:23:16.

an urgent review of what ends up in our bill. Thank you.

:23:16.:23:21.

To the countryside, ah, idyllic and wonderful. Or is it? Adam went to

:23:21.:23:31.

find out. About a fifth of the UK lives in

:23:31.:23:35.

areas like this, the village of Marnhull in rural Dorset. Most

:23:35.:23:39.

places in this part of the world have got some kind of link with

:23:39.:23:43.

Thomas Hardy. This place has got a really good one, because it's where

:23:43.:23:47.

Tess of the D'Urbervilles was born and bred. Let's go and find out

:23:47.:23:53.

what issues affect modern life in the countryside. They didn't dot

:23:53.:23:57.

milking like this in Tess's day. At Home Farm the big worry is the

:23:57.:24:04.

price of a pint. The price of this per litre would be 86p. The price

:24:04.:24:08.

of this is �1. This is very readily falling out of the sky at the

:24:08.:24:13.

moment and this takes a huge amount of production. The supermarkets

:24:13.:24:17.

obviously can use this as a loss leader. I think people perhaps

:24:17.:24:21.

don't understand quite the amount of work and effort that goes into

:24:21.:24:25.

producing milk. Back down in the village, I've found another problem,

:24:25.:24:31.

hello? Hello? Yes, that's right, the mobile phone signal here is

:24:31.:24:36.

absolutely rubbish. And that's priority number one for this Dorset

:24:36.:24:42.

resident, who's the new head of the Countryside Alliance. I used to be

:24:42.:24:46.

a soldier. I say half joking, you get a better signal in Helmand.

:24:46.:24:51.

That is really now unacceptable as is the lack of provision for rural

:24:51.:24:56.

broad band. The Government has a good rural Broadband going, but it

:24:56.:24:59.

needs speeding up and refining. Rural Broadband is key to rural

:24:59.:25:02.

business in the way that rural businesses work. The internet gives

:25:02.:25:06.

you so many opportunities that we haven't had before. One business

:25:06.:25:09.

here that doesn't need the internet is the Robin Hill Stores, run by

:25:09.:25:15.

husband and wife team Bob and Sue. So, what's on the minds of their

:25:15.:25:20.

regulars? It's the bus services, they're cutting them completely to

:25:20.:25:24.

certain areas, ie Salisbury, Dorchester and Yeovil. A lot of

:25:24.:25:28.

people rely on the bus services for a day out. While Sue is concerned

:25:28.:25:33.

about the dwindling number of Post Office services, they're asked to

:25:33.:25:37.

provide. For us, personally, that means that comes off our bottom

:25:37.:25:42.

line. We're paid on a commission basis. So the Government taking all

:25:42.:25:45.

these services or potentially taking the service as way from us

:25:45.:25:51.

means a cut in pay. That makes it difficult to sustain our store.

:25:51.:25:55.

Although there's one thing that several shoppers told me they were

:25:55.:25:59.

buying into - David Cameron's idea of the Big Society. People are

:26:00.:26:04.

willing to help themselves because it's not anonymous. We all know

:26:04.:26:09.

each other. We are small rb -- a small enough community that we can

:26:09.:26:14.

do things for each other. Often people lay blame when there's a lot

:26:14.:26:18.

they can do themselves. No amount of community spirit can solve the

:26:18.:26:24.

other problem gripping the village, sky high petrol prices. Marnhull

:26:24.:26:28.

might seem fairly well to do and the street names aren't run of the

:26:28.:26:32.

mill, but the issues you find here, you'll find nearly ever where in

:26:32.:26:38.

the countryside. And with us now is the Secretary of

:26:38.:26:42.

State for the environment and rural affairs Owen Paterson. Welcome to

:26:42.:26:45.

the Daily Politics. Is the countryside neglected? Absolutely

:26:45.:26:48.

not. For the first time in years, we've got ministers looking after

:26:48.:26:51.

the countryside, who all come from the countryside and really

:26:51.:26:56.

understand it. It will take time, but we've set up a lot of

:26:56.:26:59.

arrangements so we can work closely with the countryside. One of the

:26:59.:27:04.

first things I did was launch a big paiper in Cumbria making a complete

:27:04.:27:08.

commitment that Government policy would be countryside proofed, so

:27:08.:27:10.

countryside policies come through us to people who really understand

:27:10.:27:17.

it. I was born in the countryside. I've lived there all my life. I've

:27:17.:27:21.

represented north Shropshire for 15 years. Big statement. Big promise,

:27:21.:27:25.

are you convinced? We heard the problems, lack of Broadband,

:27:25.:27:29.

stopping rural business, lack of affordable housing. Well, it's

:27:29.:27:34.

great that Mr Paterson is so committed, but I think it's coming

:27:34.:27:38.

from a history which has not been so countryside friendly perhaps. A

:27:38.:27:41.

lot of people in the countryside for the reasons that you said feel

:27:42.:27:46.

rather neglected. I think it's not just ministers, though ministers

:27:46.:27:50.

have not always had such understanding, it's civil servants

:27:50.:27:54.

who tend to come from the south- east and think it's a nuisance.

:27:54.:27:58.

What is the raw deal about, what are they most upset about? There's

:27:58.:28:01.

a combination of things which aren't necessarily in the control

:28:01.:28:05.

of the Government, for example, high fuel prices make a very

:28:05.:28:08.

significant difference in the countryside because there's not

:28:08.:28:12.

much alternative. There are things which can be done, badgers is on

:28:12.:28:15.

hold. We mustn't talk about it I understand. Course you can, talk

:28:15.:28:21.

about whatever you like. But milk prices and for example, the state

:28:21.:28:26.

of trees, that is very tragic and people feel those things very

:28:26.:28:28.

strongly. Do you think the Government responded adequately or

:28:28.:28:34.

was it not a priority? I think they have responded quite well recently,

:28:34.:28:40.

but I think that the issue is that for example, when the Forestry

:28:40.:28:44.

Commission was under discussion a year ago, it wasn't very well

:28:44.:28:48.

handled. The -- they did the wrong thing. It wouldn't have mattered if

:28:48.:28:52.

the forest had been sold because the own irship isn't the issue.

:28:52.:28:59.

It's whether -- ownership isn't the issue. It's whether you have access.

:28:59.:29:01.

Those people should have been looking after the trees and these

:29:02.:29:06.

problems. That's the accusation that you've taken away the

:29:06.:29:10.

expertise from within DEFRA itself and that has contributed to the

:29:10.:29:14.

problem with ash die back. We put more money back into research on

:29:14.:29:20.

trees, but... I've only been there for two months. I know. If you look

:29:20.:29:24.

at the last few years, the trend has been the other way. Do you

:29:24.:29:29.

accept that? I've said publicically and I'll say it again, we have to

:29:29.:29:32.

completely change our attitude to trees in the forestry. We have to

:29:32.:29:36.

renew our whole policy because we know there are a number of very

:29:36.:29:43.

dangerous tree diseases out there. There's the larch tree disease and

:29:43.:29:48.

in the chestnuts. The Americans lots billions of chestnut trees.

:29:48.:29:53.

I'm not sure we can treat plant and tree products as a free, tradable

:29:53.:29:57.

commodity any more. We send seedlings to Holland and bring them

:29:57.:30:02.

back and plapbtd them here. I'm prepared for a radical look at how

:30:02.:30:06.

we handle our forestry and tree environment and the trade in those

:30:06.:30:10.

materials, which up to now, have been free. To go back to the point

:30:10.:30:13.

about people in the countryside and feeling that they have perhaps been

:30:13.:30:16.

neglected in the past. Government do things about the lack of

:30:16.:30:26.
:30:26.:30:29.

Broadband, the lack of public Having represented a rural area for

:30:29.:30:33.

15 years, one of the biggest problems I had was getting across

:30:33.:30:37.

to her but ministers, and civil servants... I would entirely agree

:30:37.:30:42.

with somebody who was on that kick just then - our rural broadband is

:30:42.:30:47.

absolutely fundamental. Improving that catapults every kind of rural

:30:47.:30:51.

activity, on a level playing field with people in the cities. It is

:30:51.:30:55.

not just businesses, it is about delivering health services, and

:30:55.:31:01.

also elderly people, who can be isolated. The first week I got in I

:31:01.:31:08.

went to Cumbria to launch a major initiative on broadband. We are

:31:08.:31:13.

spending half a billion pounds on broadband. The other comment,

:31:13.:31:17.

regarding the mobile phones, it does help to have a minister like

:31:17.:31:21.

me who is completely exasperated by the dire quality of our mobile

:31:21.:31:31.
:31:31.:31:31.

phone networks. I have had meetings with Maria Miller and Eric Pickles,

:31:31.:31:35.

we are quite determined to get this right. We are working extremely

:31:35.:31:39.

hard on it. But it does help to have ministers who have a gut

:31:39.:31:42.

feeling for this, who know how exasperated people are in the

:31:42.:31:48.

countryside. One thing about housing is the possible need to

:31:48.:31:52.

have big estates and high rise blocks, what about that in the

:31:52.:31:56.

countryside? I think actually in the countryside, it is often a case

:31:56.:32:00.

of quite small units, which can be difficult to get through planning.

:32:00.:32:05.

Quite often, once they have got through planning, the need has

:32:05.:32:11.

actually gone away, because people have moved. So, I think small is

:32:11.:32:13.

beautiful in the countryside, in terms of affordable housing. I

:32:13.:32:18.

think that is what is needed, rather than big estates. What do

:32:18.:32:21.

you think about the framework on planning from the Government?

:32:22.:32:24.

don't think it will make much difference to the issue I have just

:32:24.:32:29.

been speaking about, but I think it will make a big difference to the

:32:29.:32:32.

big infrastructure projects, which are not what people want.

:32:32.:32:36.

planning, we have allowed local people to come forward with local

:32:36.:32:40.

plans. I am clear, we cannot freeze the countryside, there has to be

:32:40.:32:46.

development. That affects our youngest people, just getting on

:32:46.:32:49.

the jobs ladder, who need affordable housing. I think we have

:32:49.:32:52.

done a great thing for the countryside, allowing development

:32:52.:32:58.

which is in tune with locals people's views and needs. Except,

:32:58.:33:03.

of course, there will be a case where central government can say,

:33:03.:33:07.

certain authorities are blocking plans, and you will be able to ride

:33:07.:33:11.

roughshod over those authorities. No, because the concept gives real

:33:11.:33:15.

power to local councillors. It comes up from the bottom. We have

:33:15.:33:20.

seen it already, it is working. of your targets was the radical

:33:20.:33:24.

reform of the agricultural policy in Europe - how can you hope to get

:33:24.:33:27.

that, including the fisheries policies? It is just not going to

:33:27.:33:32.

happen, Tony Blair tried it, how are you going to succeed? It is a

:33:33.:33:37.

long shot, because I am one of 27, which is one of the problems. You

:33:37.:33:42.

mentioned the fisheries policy - I came up with a fisheries policy

:33:42.:33:46.

when I was in opposition, to establish national local control.

:33:46.:33:51.

We have a coalition policy of reform of the CAP. The minister in

:33:51.:33:58.

charge has gone a long way, on one of the most contentious issues,

:33:58.:34:02.

which is the problem of discards, good, healthy fish being thrown

:34:02.:34:08.

away. Richard has done a fantastic job in our negotiations. It is

:34:08.:34:13.

complicated, it has been to the council, and it is now going to the

:34:13.:34:16.

European Parliament. We are looking to get a ban, which would be really

:34:16.:34:21.

good.. But you have set yourself that the eurozone could effectively

:34:21.:34:25.

create that inner core, then Britain would be permanently on the

:34:25.:34:31.

outside, permanently out voted on these issues. Well, actually, if

:34:31.:34:35.

you look at what Richard has done on the CAP, by working with like-

:34:35.:34:41.

minded allies, major progress has been made. It does not go as far as

:34:41.:34:47.

some of us would like, but it is a stark. Has the government policy on

:34:47.:34:53.

onshore wind farms changed? I do not to energy policy. You do in

:34:53.:34:58.

terms of the impact on the rural economy - has it changed? No. John

:34:58.:35:01.

Hayes has been clear that he is going to deliver a certain amount

:35:01.:35:05.

of policy for wind farms. I have been clear that there are

:35:05.:35:08.

appropriate places for certain kinds of energy and inappropriate

:35:08.:35:14.

places. It is horses for courses. In my part of the world, it is a

:35:14.:35:23.

stupid place to build wind farms, because of the trees. If there is

:35:23.:35:27.

no wind in your constituency, why are EDF in talks with Shropshire

:35:27.:35:32.

council over the possible placing of eight turbines? And you should

:35:32.:35:36.

see the number of letters I am getting at the moment opposing the

:35:36.:35:39.

establishment of even pipelines linking up possible wind farms

:35:39.:35:44.

which may be built in Wales. It is all hypothetical. People get

:35:44.:35:49.

absolutely incandescent about wind turbines, it is almost the thing

:35:49.:35:53.

which people feel most passionate about. But the windy places tend to

:35:53.:35:56.

be on the top of hills, and they tend to be the most beautiful parts

:35:56.:36:03.

of the countryside. I think what John Hayes said was that there was

:36:03.:36:07.

enough capacity to meet the target which has been set, but he has also

:36:07.:36:15.

quite rightly picked up. Made by Clive Aslet that building turbines

:36:15.:36:18.

in inappropriate places causes massive opposition, because these

:36:18.:36:23.

turbines do not generate much power. Wide end did Peter Lilley saying a

:36:23.:36:27.

secret report that he believed the Chancellor privately regretted all

:36:27.:36:36.

of the green commitments which had been made? -- why then? I cannot

:36:36.:36:40.

speak for what Peter Lilley said. I was hopefully last week, supporting

:36:40.:36:45.

British food. All I can say is, I do not to energy policy... But you

:36:45.:36:49.

to do the impact of it on the rural economy. Yes, and there have been

:36:49.:36:55.

quite clear that it is horses for courses. Some form of hydro power

:36:55.:36:59.

may be appropriate, as long as it works with the grain of nature and

:36:59.:37:04.

does not destroy fish stocks. But in inland counties, it is

:37:04.:37:08.

impossible to exaggerate the anger that there is at inappropriate

:37:08.:37:11.

installations of turbines, where there is not enough wind to justify

:37:11.:37:17.

it. Should the subsidies continue for onshore wind? I am not keen on

:37:17.:37:21.

subsidising anything. If these technologies are able to, they

:37:21.:37:28.

should stand on their own. I do the impact on the rural economy and

:37:28.:37:36.

environment. I think it is incredible that the renewable

:37:36.:37:41.

obligations mean that we import woodchip and logs with Bach on in

:37:41.:37:47.

order to put them into biomass power stations. What has been done

:37:47.:37:51.

to inspect that material to make sure it is not carrying treat

:37:51.:37:56.

diseases, I wonder? This was highlighted by Defra last year.

:37:56.:38:02.

set up this task force shortly after I came into a look at how we

:38:02.:38:07.

handle all plant and tree materials. I think part of his investigation

:38:07.:38:12.

will be looking at biomass. I am looking at a major and radical

:38:12.:38:16.

change at the way we handle all plant and tree products. Thank you

:38:16.:38:19.

very much for coming onto the programme. Well, according to the

:38:20.:38:22.

Government's first report on the quality of our lives, which

:38:22.:38:24.

incidentally is out today, people in rural areas shouldn't be

:38:25.:38:28.

whinging at all. The report found that the lives of people in rural

:38:28.:38:30.

Britain was significantly better than those who live in urban areas.

:38:31.:38:34.

Women tend to be happier than men. And people over 60 also tend to be

:38:34.:38:38.

happier. Oh, and if you live in the Outer Hebridies, Orkney or Shetland,

:38:38.:38:40.

you've apparently got life taped. Anyway, the man charged with

:38:40.:38:43.

overseeing the report is the former Cabinet Secretary Gus, now Lord,

:38:43.:38:47.

O'Donnell. I spoke to him earlier this morning and I began by asking

:38:47.:38:54.

him how happiness was measured. Well, happiness is something

:38:54.:38:58.

subjective, it is how you feel. We asked people how they were feeling,

:38:58.:39:04.

but it is not the only aspect of wellbeing. It is one aspect. We

:39:04.:39:08.

also want to measure people's life- expectancy, their health, aspects

:39:08.:39:11.

of basically whether they are having a good lie for not.

:39:11.:39:16.

obvious response is, in these straitened times, is this not just

:39:16.:39:20.

a waste of money? For somebody to say, if you have a job, you will be

:39:20.:39:25.

happier than if you are unemployed? Yes, but we measure success by the

:39:25.:39:31.

change in GDP - how stupid is that? Actually, in this downturn, GDP has

:39:31.:39:36.

fallen quite a lot, but employment has stayed quite high, so the

:39:36.:39:40.

impact on wellbeing is not as much as if you just looked at the GDP

:39:40.:39:45.

numbers. How can the Government make us feel happier, what policies

:39:45.:39:48.

can they passed? First of all, it can understand what it is that

:39:48.:39:52.

makes people feel better. In a sense, this is feeding back, we

:39:52.:39:57.

need to understand what it is that the public are unhappy about, what

:39:57.:40:01.

is really bad for their lives. For example, we know from all this

:40:01.:40:04.

research that commuting is something that people really

:40:04.:40:08.

dislike. There are things we can do about trying to emphasise and

:40:08.:40:13.

improve the quality of commuting. There are things like in macro

:40:13.:40:17.

policy thinking about different kinds of policies - how do you pick

:40:17.:40:25.

that one which keeps most people in jobs? Does this not also sound a

:40:25.:40:32.

bit statist? Do people want the Government to decide about their

:40:32.:40:37.

well-being? It is definitely not that. We are giving you the power.

:40:37.:40:41.

So far, the Government has been saying, here are the services we

:40:41.:40:45.

are going to deliver to you. But actually, we want to find out from

:40:45.:40:50.

you what really makes a difference. For example, in health services, we

:40:50.:40:53.

know that car parking charges really matter to people in

:40:53.:40:56.

hospitals. So, not just improving the quality of the Health Service,

:40:56.:41:02.

but all the ancillary things around it. You could argue that George

:41:02.:41:06.

Osborne's economic policy has been designed to satisfy the credit

:41:06.:41:12.

rating agencies - do you think that used to narrow? Well, the policy I

:41:12.:41:16.

hope is not being designed about credit rating agencies. That is

:41:16.:41:19.

what we hear from the Government all the time, that it is about

:41:19.:41:24.

having good credit, keeping interests -- interest rates low.

:41:24.:41:28.

Well, the credit rating agencies have not exactly got a fantastic

:41:28.:41:33.

record in this process, so I do not agree with that. We saw America had

:41:33.:41:37.

its credit rating dropped and its interest rates did not move at all.

:41:37.:41:41.

It is absolutely right that we try our best to maintain a good credit

:41:41.:41:45.

rating, but it is not the goal of policy. That should be trying to

:41:45.:41:50.

maximise will be in, it should have -- it should be about a recovery

:41:50.:41:54.

which is employment which, which gets us back on track and learnt

:41:54.:41:57.

the lessons of the financial crisis. The Civil Service will not be

:41:57.:42:01.

feeling very happy at the moment, with 1,000 jobs going in the

:42:01.:42:04.

Department of education - what would you say to them but that this

:42:04.:42:08.

process has been going on, the Civil Service has been at the

:42:08.:42:11.

forefront of contributing to the deficit reduction process. This has

:42:11.:42:15.

been tough. We do have the smallest Civil Service since the Second

:42:15.:42:21.

World War and the numbers are going down, as we improve efficiency.

:42:21.:42:25.

remaining ones are aware that they did not cause this problem, but

:42:25.:42:28.

they are playing their part to contribute towards it. I think

:42:28.:42:31.

they're doing a fantastic job. If you think of the fact that there

:42:31.:42:34.

was a lot less money, and they are improving services, what I would

:42:34.:42:38.

say to them is, this is a time when you have got the opportunity to

:42:38.:42:43.

innovate. Yes, there is no money, so we need to work incredibly hard,

:42:43.:42:48.

innovatively, with new ideas, to make sure that people who really

:42:48.:42:51.

depend on public services are not adversely affected by deficit-

:42:51.:42:56.

reduction. Do you agree, then, that the civil service is being

:42:56.:43:01.

undervalued? Massively undervalued. I am just about to go off to

:43:01.:43:06.

Singapore. I wish that our civil servants were paid in the same way

:43:06.:43:10.

that they are in Singapore, which is closer to market rates.

:43:10.:43:13.

Certainly I think our civil servants are undervalued. But when

:43:13.:43:17.

times are tight, a pink sepals servants know that we need to play

:43:17.:43:24.

our part. We are all in this together. -- I think that civil

:43:24.:43:30.

servants know that... But it is not just about jobs being lost, it is

:43:31.:43:35.

about rhetoric coming from government, saying that the Civil

:43:35.:43:38.

Service needs to harness the buccaneering spirit of war, the

:43:38.:43:41.

enemies of enterprise speech, characterising the Civil Service as

:43:41.:43:46.

a block on progress - are they being demonised? What I would say

:43:46.:43:50.

is, and the challenge I put back to the Prime Minister when he used

:43:50.:43:56.

that phrase was to say, OK, let's do this, so I set up something

:43:56.:43:59.

called I would take challenge, asking all businesses to tell us

:43:59.:44:03.

what red tape they wanted us to get rid of, and we will now push goes

:44:03.:44:07.

through, and we will see who of the block to this. Hopefully a lot will

:44:07.:44:10.

come from this. If it doesn't, it is either because businesses have

:44:10.:44:14.

not told us what is wrong, or it has been decided but the chicken

:44:14.:44:20.

that these are not the things to do. -- it has been decided politically

:44:20.:44:24.

that these are not the right things to do. I think David Cameron is

:44:24.:44:31.

trying to say, look, the past is not necessarily a good guide to the

:44:31.:44:34.

future. We need to be innovative, we need to take risks, we need a

:44:34.:44:38.

culture which says, if something goes wrong, that is fine. In the

:44:38.:44:42.

private sector, you try 10 projects, if six of them succeed, you are

:44:42.:44:48.

doing well. In the Civil Service, if we have four failures, we would

:44:48.:44:51.

have four hearings before the Public Accounts Committee. How many

:44:51.:44:55.

times have we talk about the Olympics and the success of the

:44:55.:44:59.

Olympics, and gone back to analyse the lessons of success as opposed

:44:59.:45:03.

to the lessons of failure?. Should the Cabinet Secretary be defending

:45:03.:45:07.

the civil-service more edge that he has a very difficult job. There is

:45:07.:45:11.

no-one better than me to say that because I was in it for six years.

:45:11.:45:14.

But you were not pleased about the enemies of enterprise speech, were

:45:14.:45:19.

you? No, I was not because I did not think it was true. Where things

:45:19.:45:24.

are true, and where the Civil Service can be faulted, is where in

:45:24.:45:27.

the past we have stuck with, this is the way we have always done it,

:45:27.:45:31.

it is the safe way of doing things. What I am trying to do, and my

:45:31.:45:35.

successors, is to change that mindset, to say, actually,

:45:35.:45:40.

innovation is fine, we will accept your failure, and let's hope the

:45:40.:45:44.

whole system will get into that mood of celebrating success and

:45:44.:45:54.
:45:54.:45:56.

learning from failure. Are you a I am. I have complete control over

:45:56.:45:59.

the allocation of my time at the moment. I spend a lot of time on

:45:59.:46:03.

exercise, outside. We know that matters a lot. Better than working

:46:04.:46:07.

in Government? I can come on the TV and say what I really think, which

:46:07.:46:12.

was a freedom I didn't have before. Yes, and is that liberating? It is,

:46:12.:46:17.

yes. I'm enjoying it. You see, the joys of being able to come on the

:46:18.:46:21.

Daily Politics. You've got that pleasure, of course, we have the

:46:21.:46:25.

pleasure of you. Do you think these things are worthwhile, a well being

:46:25.:46:29.

commission, a report into trying to allow Government to find out what

:46:29.:46:33.

makes people happy? As soon as you put something like well being into

:46:33.:46:38.

a report it looks ridiculous. It's easy to make fun of it. It's an

:46:38.:46:42.

idea that is rather good that David Cameron has come up with. But

:46:42.:46:46.

perhaps not as well communicated as it might have been rather like the

:46:46.:46:50.

Big Society. It's particularly important now, at a time when a lot

:46:50.:46:54.

of people feel trapped in a somewhat negative economic

:46:54.:46:57.

environment that we look at the things which actually do make

:46:57.:47:05.

people happy. Are you happy? happy. But I think that people are

:47:05.:47:08.

temperamentally happy or not. is the problem with the survey,

:47:08.:47:13.

you're either suss peptible to it or not. That's true. But it's

:47:13.:47:16.

interesting that people are on the whole happier in the countryside.

:47:16.:47:19.

They have less money on the whole. They have a lot of things they have

:47:19.:47:22.

to deal with. They feel part of a community and that's very important

:47:22.:47:27.

to people and also, the fact that, the point that Gus O'Donnell made

:47:27.:47:32.

that if you have control over your time, that's also very helpful.

:47:32.:47:35.

These things don't necessarily cost very much or may not be to do with

:47:35.:47:41.

money at all. Exactly what he said. Now here's a thought - should MPs

:47:41.:47:44.

job share? One MP think it's would be a rather good idea and is

:47:44.:47:48.

suggesting it to the House of Commons as I speak. Gyles spent the

:47:48.:47:51.

morning getting to the bottom of it. We live in a modern world. Plenty

:47:51.:47:58.

of people work parttime, but would it work for MPs? Well, there is a

:47:58.:48:01.

rule going through -- before MPs. There is a suggestion it might

:48:01.:48:05.

happen, at least a sensible debate about it. With me are two MPs,

:48:05.:48:09.

tpwhun favour and one, I think it's fair to say, who isn't. Meg, why is

:48:09.:48:14.

this not a daft idea? In other parts of any business people can

:48:14.:48:18.

choose to job share. You get two for the price of one, two people

:48:18.:48:21.

committed to working how to make that job work well together and

:48:21.:48:27.

balancing it with the rest of their lives. I am assuming you would have

:48:27.:48:30.

to be honest enough to say to the electorate, you would have to be

:48:30.:48:34.

elected as a job share, not oh, I fancy taking Time Out and bringing

:48:34.:48:38.

someone else in. Absolutely. Because of the nature of the job,

:48:38.:48:42.

you stand for election as a job share, complaining how you would

:48:42.:48:47.

share it, would you split it by days of the week, by topics and ho

:48:47.:48:51.

-- how to handle votes on difficult issues. In parts of the country I

:48:51.:48:55.

think the electorate would go for it. You once described this as

:48:55.:48:59.

bonkers. Why? Is this April fool's days? This is a crack pot idea.

:48:59.:49:03.

This is further demeaning Parliament. The job doesn't lend

:49:03.:49:08.

itself to job share. In a time when we're looking to have less elected

:49:08.:49:12.

Parliamentarians to have double the number by job sharing is crazy.

:49:12.:49:16.

Madness. You know it wouldn't be double because only a few would go

:49:16.:49:22.

for it. Do your staff know what's in your in tray, do your staff know

:49:22.:49:26.

what you're covering, why couldn't someone else know as well? At a

:49:26.:49:30.

time when we have less people voting than ever, to put two people

:49:30.:49:35.

forward and to say for a five-year period you're going to job share,

:49:35.:49:38.

how would you decide who would do what part of the job? I mean I want

:49:38.:49:44.

to see us woking longer hours at Westminster not less hours. I think

:49:44.:49:49.

the trend, enough is enough and to job share is the end. It's a

:49:49.:49:54.

peculiar idea in that you could think the same way about certain

:49:54.:49:59.

issues. On most issues people vote on the whip. In seven years in

:49:59.:50:02.

Parliament, there have been three, four occasions when there have been

:50:02.:50:07.

free votes on difficult issues, you would have to explain how you would

:50:07.:50:10.

decide thatened you get only one vote. You talk about doubling the

:50:10.:50:13.

numbers and cost, but you'd have two people sharing one office and

:50:13.:50:17.

one set of resources. There wouldn't be additional cost. What

:50:17.:50:21.

if one of you misbehaved? I think you'd have to again have a way of

:50:21.:50:28.

dealing with. It you would have to - I think two rational, sensible,

:50:28.:50:32.

professional people could sort it out. Job shares head of planning in

:50:32.:50:36.

a London borough. These are difficult jobs. You're shaking your

:50:36.:50:41.

head. We've all got big egos and for two people over five years not

:50:41.:50:48.

to change and not to fall out, this would be like a reality TV show.

:50:48.:50:52.

One of your colleagues stepped downforceing a by-election recently

:50:52.:50:56.

because they wanted to spend more time with their family. I'm not

:50:56.:51:00.

going to comment on a former colleague. They said they felt the

:51:00.:51:06.

pressure of family. Oh, for goodness sake. I think, you say for

:51:06.:51:09.

goodness sake, I had a flood of e- mails from women saying, you know

:51:09.:51:13.

if we want more real people in Parliament who understand and

:51:13.:51:17.

juggle real life, let's face it when we are in Westminster -

:51:17.:51:22.

isn't that sort of job. It could be. It's demeaning it. You are going to

:51:22.:51:29.

carry this on for a while. Just, do you think it could happen? It could.

:51:29.:51:33.

The option needs to be open. It would be a great thing. Prove it.

:51:33.:51:38.

I've got a bit of online research to do any way. Hand back to the

:51:38.:51:43.

studio. From college gene, from Gyles on his mobile and from David,

:51:43.:51:48.

back to you in the studio. OMG, she made it look too easy. I

:51:48.:51:52.

might be out of a job. Well done. Why couldn't there be a job share

:51:52.:51:57.

at Westminster? MPs should be able to manage that? It's difficult

:51:57.:52:00.

having a coalition between two parties and the idea of mini

:52:00.:52:06.

coalitions beggars belief. Why? There are so many other jobs that

:52:06.:52:10.

you could job share. Once you get over the initial how would it work,

:52:10.:52:16.

why wouldn't it agree? You would have to have complete agreement on

:52:16.:52:19.

every subject, which isn't possible. Because of the character of MPs

:52:19.:52:24.

people wouldn't agree. Yes. would need continuity. They would

:52:24.:52:27.

vote on the same issues at different times and they could vote

:52:27.:52:31.

different ways. No hands up for job sharing. Not for me. That hasn't

:52:31.:52:35.

passed in the studio. Now according to the Government's happiness

:52:35.:52:42.

survey, which we were talking about, money hasn't necessarily -- doesn't

:52:42.:52:44.

necessarily make you happy. With more of the super rich coming to

:52:44.:52:49.

live in the UK, you might have to watch out for a miserable mogul

:52:49.:52:53.

coming to live near you. The Mayor of London says we should welcome

:52:53.:52:57.

the rich and powerful with open arms, arguing that the more open

:52:57.:53:01.

our society to they and powerful the more dynamic and prosperous our

:53:01.:53:07.

economy will become, which was a major theme in his speech to the

:53:07.:53:11.

CBI yesterday. You should never underestimate the protean ability

:53:11.:53:15.

to find markets around the world. I never tire of telling you, you

:53:16.:53:22.

export bicycles to Holland, mosquito repellant to Brazil, TV

:53:22.:53:27.

antennas to Korea, tea to China, rice to India, Piers Morgan to

:53:27.:53:30.

America... LAUGHTER

:53:30.:53:35.

Not just cake to France, but I discovered the other day, we sell

:53:35.:53:40.

lavender perfume and lavender oil grown from south London lavender to

:53:40.:53:50.
:53:50.:53:50.

France. Parfum deBromley. If we can sell that, my friends, we can sell

:53:50.:53:54.

anything, can't we? That is the achievement and the result of the

:53:54.:53:59.

imagination of British business. Ever since London was founded in

:53:59.:54:07.

48AD by a bunch of pushy Italian immigrants, London has benefited

:54:07.:54:11.

from the consciousness that we are a great global city and we will win,

:54:11.:54:16.

if we think global and open ourselves to the worldment Boris

:54:16.:54:20.

Johnson, never knowingly understated. Joining us now is a

:54:20.:54:25.

person who co-incidentally has written about -- a book about

:54:25.:54:34.

autocrats. Cysta Freeland. How did such a small group of people take

:54:34.:54:41.

such a large part of the pie? one hand globalisation, the

:54:41.:54:45.

technology revolution, this really profound change is making it

:54:45.:54:49.

possible for people to earn bigger fortunes than ever before and to

:54:49.:54:53.

earn them very, very quickly. At the same time, we're seeing mill

:54:53.:54:56.

low class hollowed out. That's the big economic shift that we're

:54:56.:55:00.

seeing and all trying to come to terms with. What's caused that? I

:55:00.:55:04.

suppose generally there was a feeling that the middle class

:55:04.:55:06.

extended post-war, slowly but surely, more people became better

:55:07.:55:13.

off. You're now talking about the very, very top 0.1% talking off

:55:13.:55:19.

from the rest. Shooting off even as we're seeing median wages in --

:55:19.:55:23.

wages stagnate. Economists talk about this, British economists talk

:55:23.:55:27.

about the rise of the lovely and the Laosy jobs. It's this two-speed

:55:27.:55:33.

world. It really is. I think it's very intuitive. On the one hand

:55:33.:55:36.

globalisation. If you're running a business, producing something that

:55:36.:55:41.

is able to really take off, you can sell to the whole world instead of

:55:41.:55:48.

just to your country. We heard Boris Johnson talking about parfum

:55:48.:55:51.

de Bromley. Can you sell into a global market. If you're a winner

:55:51.:55:55.

in a field, that's great. Then the technology revolution, exact lit

:55:55.:56:00.

same thing, that first of all, for superstars like Lady GaGa she can

:56:00.:56:04.

sing to a global audience and not just a local one. If you were

:56:04.:56:08.

running, think about Facebook, one of the huge companies of our time,

:56:08.:56:12.

do you know how many people work there? No. Fewer than 5,000.

:56:13.:56:15.

Because technology has made that happen. It's a technology company

:56:15.:56:19.

and worth billions. You mentioned Lady GaGa and Facebook, Google, who

:56:19.:56:25.

else are we talking about? Who is a Plutocrat? The technology guys,

:56:25.:56:33.

finance, absolutely, and then the emerging markets, ultra-well airs,

:56:33.:56:38.

the -- Ultra-billionaires. He would say come on in. Is it the case that

:56:38.:56:41.

these Plutocrats pay lower tax than their cleaners. That was the

:56:41.:56:44.

rhetoric used by British politicians. It's a bit of rhetoric

:56:44.:56:51.

that you are hearing around the world. Wairn Buffet has been

:56:51.:56:57.

talking about his secretary pays taxes at a higher rate than he does

:56:57.:57:02.

and Mitt Romney had to disclose his tax returns, 14% effective tax rate.

:57:03.:57:06.

That's remarkable. In your view of the world and all the Plutocrats

:57:06.:57:09.

you know, do you think it's true this argument that money trickles

:57:09.:57:14.

down from the top that the reason we must welcome the uberrich is

:57:14.:57:19.

that they'll spend money and we'll benefit? Is that true? I think we

:57:20.:57:25.

will benefit but it's causing social afrpbgs at the same time. I

:57:25.:57:28.

wrote a book called the Edwardian country house. That's when the idea

:57:28.:57:33.

of the Plutocrat really first arose. I'm amazed that the world is

:57:33.:57:36.

reverting to what it was at the beginning of the Twentieth Century.

:57:36.:57:42.

Do you welcome it? No, I think these extremes of wealth are very

:57:42.:57:46.

disconcerting and it's not the British way. When I left university

:57:46.:57:49.

people had a spectrum of jobs they might choose and everybody would

:57:49.:57:53.

roughly live the same sort of life. That's no longer the case. It

:57:53.:57:56.

affects the choice my children make, for example. There are jobs up

:57:56.:58:01.

there and others down there. Can I jump in? Of course. The Edwardian

:58:01.:58:05.

comparison is fascinating and right on. What's so interesting is this

:58:05.:58:10.

has happened to us before. It happened in the 19th century when

:58:10.:58:14.

you had the Industrial Revolution, very similar actually, you know,

:58:15.:58:18.

huge turbulent economic change, some people doing extremely well.

:58:18.:58:23.

Some people did really badly. Whu think about it, it required this

:58:23.:58:28.

tremendous social and political accommodation. Two world wars, a

:58:28.:58:30.

Great Depression, Communist Revolutions in Russia and in China.

:58:30.:58:34.

It's a very big thing. And in response, we invented what is

:58:34.:58:38.

effectively modern society, right, the Wem fair state didn't exist

:58:38.:58:42.

before that. -- welfare. The conclusion of my book is really to

:58:42.:58:46.

point out to all of us, we are living in a similarly turbulent

:58:46.:58:51.

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