20/11/2012 Daily Politics


20/11/2012

Jo Coburn presents political news with guests Owen Paterson, Environment Secretary and Lord O'Donnell, former civil service head. What are the big concerns of countryside folk?


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Transcript


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Afternoon, folks - welcome to The Daily Politics. Do you want to pay

:00:40.:00:42.

less for your energy? The Government wants you to, and this

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afternoon the Energy Secretary, Ed Davey, will unveil proposals which

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he hopes will simplify the system and reduce the complexity and price

:00:48.:00:56.

of energy deals. Countryside calling - if you can

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get a signal. We'll be quizzing the Environment Secretary, Owen

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Paterson, on rural concerns. How happy are you? The Government's

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first ever survey about Britain's well-being has been published, and

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believe it or not, we're a pretty cheeful lot.

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And from happiness to the bustle of Westminster. Yes, our

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parliamentarians are a busy lot - but would they ever job share?

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Believe it or not, one MP thinks it's exactly what they should be

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All that in the next hour. And with us for the duration today is the

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former editor of Country Life magazine Clive Aslet. Welcome to

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the programme. Now first this morning, let's talk about the

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Tories' new communications guru, the Australian strategist who

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helped Boris win office for a second term, Lynton Crosby. Because

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the former deputy chairman of the Conservative Party Lord Ashcroft

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has this morning being offering Mr Crosby some advice. Our political

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correspondent Carole Walker has more details. Carole - what advice

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has Lord Ashcroft offered? Well, we need to remember first of all, Jo,

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that Lord Ashcroft starts this advice by pointing out that he

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argued against having Lynton Crosby brought in to Conservative Central

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Office. Lord Ashcroft is concerned too much on the core vote. Lord

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Ashcroft is saying that it is very important pour the party to reach

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out, not just to consolidate, not to rely on Ed Miliband winning it

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for the Tories, not to write off the Liberal Democrats. And he goes

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on also to give some rather pointed advice at the end. You will

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remember that once the adviser becomes the story, he says, that is

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not a good thing. That is a reference to the fact that Lynton

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Crosby has already appeared on the front page of the Mail on Sunday,

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with allegations that he swore about Muslims during the election

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campaign for Boris Johnson, something which Mr Crosby says he

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does not recall. But he is a controversial figure, and Lord

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Ashcroft is clearly not entirely enthusiastic about his return to

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the Conservative fold. Do you think this advice will actually be taken?

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It is interesting. I think Lynton Crosby brings a particular skill,

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let's say, to election campaigns. He was in charge in 2005, when

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Michael Howard was the Tory leader, when he was accused of dog whistle

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politics, talking a lot about immigration, in the thought that

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this might play on people's fears. At the time he said it was an

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important issue, but I think Lynton Crosby will bring something of a

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focus to the Conservative Party campaign, but he is somebody who is

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known for his focus on some call Conservative principles. There will

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be others around him who will be arguing that the party needs to do

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much more to open up, to modernise, to reach out. And I think that is

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are likely to be a point of tension come the next general election

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campaign, especially as we do not yet know exactly how it is going to

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work out between him, George Osborne, who is in overall control,

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Grant Shapps, the party chairman, and several other senior characters

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who will be involved in this campaign. With us now is Tim

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Montgomerie, the editor of Conservative Home. Do you welcome

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this? I do, very much. This is a man with a lot of experience in

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Australia and London, a man who knows how campaigns are run. There

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are a lot of journalists who run campaigns, but Lynton Crosby's

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opinion is that those are not the ideal people to run campaigns. He

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chooses two or three big themes and makes sure the party focuses on

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them, which is usually the secret of winning elections. What about

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Number Ten Downing Street, is everybody behind this the Pope went

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-- this appointment? I did not know, but I think this is something David

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Cameron and George Osborne have wanted for quite some time. It was

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George Osborne initially who suggested that Lynton Crosby should

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go and help Boris Johnson, when he was first running for the Mayor of

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London. There is an important point made by Lord Ashcroft, which is

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that surely, to win the next election, you have got to look

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beyond the call vote. That is Lynton Crosby's talent, but is it

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going to limit the success of the Tory party if he does not look

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beyond that? People have misunderstood a lot of his

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qualities. Yes, Lynton Crosby has certain views, which might be more

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on the traditional side of politics, but that is not his main quality.

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What he has been recruited for is to run a campaign, to focus on the

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things that matter, to be disciplined. I do not think the

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Tories will suddenly revert to the kind of campaign that Michael

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Howard had in 2005. Actually, Lynton Crosby had quite little to

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do with that, he joined it just nine months before the election.

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All the campaign themes had largely been decided by Michael Howard.

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What Lynton Crosby will do will be to do a better job of making sure

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that the David Cameron message, which is not going to be

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revolutionised, is properly communicated to voters. This is

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incredibly good news for the Conservative Party. What about Lord

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Ashcroft, is he still a powerful figure? Absolutely. I have to say

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that partly because he is my proprietor. But one huge advantage

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which Michael Ashcroft brings is that he is a seasoned campaigner,

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but he also conducts some of the biggest opinion polls in British

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politics. He is more knowledgeable about what the average British

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voter is thinking than most people. When he says something, it is not

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just one businessman thinking aloud, it is very much grounded in an

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awful lot of market research. there could be some tension between

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the two men, and one thing Lord Ashcroft said was that he wanted to

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avoid a repeat of 2010, when the campaign was run by a range of

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people. You will still have Grant Shapps, George Osborne, Lord

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Ashcroft, Lynton Crosby... He says, there are as many ex-Lib Dem voters

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who might vote Tory as there are Tories who might switch to UKIP -

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do you agree with that? Yes, that is what the market research says.

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Surely disillusioned Lib Dem voters would be voting Labour? A lot of

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the opinion polling suggests that there are a lot of voters waiting

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to see whether the economic medicine but dish government is

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dispensing will work. -- that this government is dispensing. We have a

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character of the person inclined to vote Lib Dem, but the trick for

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this government is, if it succeeds economically, which will be Lord

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Ashcroft's main message, the competent delivery of economic

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progress, then we can begin to get voters from all of the main parties.

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Do you think the Government and the Conservatives particularly have

:08:22.:08:25.

focused too much on deficit reduction, and that beyond that,

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has not really spelt out clearly enough to voters what a

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Conservative-led government will do? This is one of the difficulties

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of coalition. In terms of the core vote, you might think it was rather

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a good idea. Certainly, we might be seeing that one of the big ideas of

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the last election is now rather unravelling, the idea of the ablest

:08:53.:09:03.
:09:03.:09:07.

candidates. -- A-list candidates. Even though the idea was to make

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the party look a bit more like the country at large. Yes, but I think

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it has left some people wondering who they are. I think that list has

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been mixed. Many of the most talented new members of the intake

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are the kind of people but give me hope in the future of the

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Conservative Party. They are incredibly talented. Perhaps the

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media have spotlighted some of the most controversial figures. But the

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talent is there for the future. The combination of David Cameron

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pushing more diversity and the membership pushing back a little

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bit, and insisting that only the cream of that list should be

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selected, has produced one of the most exciting Tory intakes in a

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generation. Do you agree with Lord Ashcroft that Ed Miliband could be

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as much of an electoral liability as Gordon Brown? That is difficult

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to say at this moment. One thing the Conservative strategists need

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to be careful about is not to demonise Ed Miliband. That is what

:10:06.:10:11.

Barack Obama did to Mitt Romney, and it is the reason why Mitt

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Romney won the first presidential debate, and made the race closer

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than it might have been, because he showed up and -- at that debate and

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was not the caricature he had been made out to be. If Ed Miliband

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turns up at that first debate and confounds how the Conservatives

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have presented him, that is dangerous. Michael Ashcroft's

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General point that we have to win the next general election with a

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positive case has to be right. what about when he says, the Tories

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need to keep the loyalists, win back the detractors and win over

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those who are only considering the party, well, that is everybody. It

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does not take an electoral genius to work that out. The difference is

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that Lord Ashcroft has found out exactly what those different groups

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are thinking. That is where the genius, if you like, comes in. But

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I don't think anybody is alert any illusions. To win the next election,

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it is going to take almost a miracle, because they could not win

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the last one under almost perfect electoral conditions. It will need

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all of the best brains in the party to work together. When you say, you

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rather welcome the idea of concentrating on the core vote,

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what are some of the things you would like to see? What would you

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say to David Cameron and George Osborne? I think voters would like

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to hear a very robust stance on Europe, I think they would be

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worried by the noises which have been coming out about planning, for

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example, which is something which is close to people's hearts. It is

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not necessarily to do with is a lot of money, but I think it would

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worry a lot of people. I think there is a feeling that it is very

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difficult for people who have worked hard and put their children

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through private school, for example, to get them into university. People

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would feel this is discriminating against the very people the Tories

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should be standing up for. wanted to ask another question --

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you wanted me to ask another question, didn't you? But I am not

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going to. Last month,. Stood up at PMQs and pledged to do something

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about energy pricing. His announcement knocked rather a lot

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of people, including his own Energy Secretary, for six. The saga was

:12:30.:12:40.
:12:40.:12:41.

completely -- was quickly dubbed combi-shambles. Last year the Prime

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Minister promised faithfully that he would take action to help people

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reduce their energy bills - can he tell the country how it is going?

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We have encouraged people to switch, which is one of the best ways to

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get your bills down, and like animals, which I am sure he will

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welcome, that we will be legislating so that energy

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companies have to give the lowest tariff to their customers,

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something Labour did not do in 13 years, even though the leader of

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the Labour Party actually could have done, because he had the job.

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So, how are the Department of Energy and the regular going to

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deliver on this pledge? The Lib Dem Energy Secretary will use an

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appearance before the Commons Select Committee to lay out his

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thinking on reforming tariff structures this afternoon. Instead

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of hundreds of different tariffs currently offered by energy

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suppliers, each company is expected to be allowed only four. Customers

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will be expected to be put on the cheapest rate for them. This,

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believes the Government, will meet the Prime Minister's pledge for

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them to have to give the lowest tariff. But will this put a hold to

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rising energy prices, or which just remove competition, and mean some

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people on the best deals end up paying more? I am joined now by the

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Shadow Energy Secretary, Caroline Flint, as well as by Richard Lloyd.

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Richard, this is what you have been waiting for - are you pleased? It

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is part of what we have been waiting for, and it would be good

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news for most consumers, who currently sit on terrible, old,

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outdated, expensive tariffs, and are not moving around in the market.

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One in 10 people say they find the energy market clear enough to

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navigate around, but for the vast majority of people, who do not

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switch, sitting on expensive and outdated tariffs, being put by

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default on the best tariff would be good news. The question is, will

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that tariff Beechy, will it be affordable, will it be fair? Most

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consumers think what is going on in the energy market is completely

:14:40.:14:45.

under transparent. Are the generators selling power to the

:14:45.:14:49.

retailers at a price which has been rigged? They will have to do a lot

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more. How do you understand it is going to work? One envisages the

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idea that we are all on the lowest across, pretty well all on the same

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tariff - how can you guarantee that we will be paying less, if I am

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already on a pretty good deal, because I have been online and done

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my research? For people like you, there may be no gain. But for most

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people, who currently sit on these high-cost, and competitive tariffs,

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the impact on the new, default tariff, should save them some money

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in the short term. But they will stay with the same supplier. What

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this will not guarantee is that they can get the best deal in the

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market. The Government need to make it easier for people to switch from

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one supplier to another, to put competitive pressure on the

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suppliers. That will keep the default price down. In theory, it

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should work, but the backdrop is one of rising wholesale energy

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costs, with government policy costs adding to bills, so the general

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trend will probably still be prices going up. Caroline Flint, the

:15:53.:16:03.
:16:03.:16:05.

Government have pulled this off, The proposals, which there should

:16:05.:16:09.

be four tariffs. If you're buying gas, you have four tariffs,

:16:09.:16:12.

variable, fixed rate and maybe a green one as well and you can

:16:12.:16:16.

choose what else you want to do. The truth is with each of those

:16:16.:16:19.

there is one price. You can be on the cheapest but not the best deal.

:16:19.:16:24.

We've been saying, before we even get to the price setting at tariff

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stage, we have to make sure the market is competitive so we are

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sure that the tariffs we're being asked to choose are the fairest

:16:32.:16:37.

ones. What with last week and the all the talk and debate about how

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wholesale prices were allegedly being rigged, there's a concern

:16:39.:16:43.

about whether we're getting the best deal. This doesn't take us

:16:43.:16:46.

further forward because the Government has nothing to say about

:16:46.:16:50.

the energy market. It's a bit unfair to say it's not taking us

:16:50.:16:54.

forward. This is the start. This will simplify the tariff system.

:16:54.:17:02.

You welcome that obviously. Ofgem's proposals are one that's we support

:17:02.:17:05.

to simplify it. When David Cameron said we're going to force the

:17:05.:17:08.

energy companies to put people on the cheapest tariff. The truth is

:17:08.:17:12.

that's the one that is online. We know many older people aren't

:17:12.:17:17.

online because they can't engage with that technology. Is that true,

:17:17.:17:23.

Caroline is saying that you may get the cheapest tariff but not the

:17:23.:17:29.

best deal. Surely the cheapest is the best deal. It depends on

:17:29.:17:35.

whether you want to fix your tariff or go with a standard variable rate.

:17:35.:17:41.

It will be like the mortgage market. The simplicity and the ability for

:17:41.:17:44.

consumers to shop around that will keep prices in check. It remains to

:17:44.:17:48.

be seen whether the Government is going to go far enough to make it

:17:48.:17:52.

easy for customers to tell, at a glance, what is the cheapest price

:17:52.:17:56.

between suppliers as well as being put on the default cheapest tariff

:17:56.:17:59.

with the existing supplier. could have done this when you were

:17:59.:18:02.

in power. Ed Miliband could have done this. It is possible. At the

:18:02.:18:06.

time when David Cameron stood up in the Commons, we all thought, he's

:18:06.:18:10.

misspoken, but he's proved actually, to some extent, that you can

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achieve this. You can simplify the tariffs and perhaps get the price

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down for a lot more people. Labour didn't do that. Actually he hasn't,

:18:19.:18:22.

from what I understand, achieved what he said in the House of

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Commons, a few weeks ago. Basically, simplyifying the tariffs, everybody

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agrees with. That at the points in which the tariffs are set, if we're

:18:31.:18:36.

not convinced it's done in the most competitive way, then even though

:18:36.:18:39.

you may choose a tariff - let's be clear about this, within the

:18:40.:18:42.

tariffs there will only be one choice - it is the cheapest, but

:18:43.:18:47.

it's the only tariff. That's the trick that Cameron is trying to put

:18:47.:18:50.

across today. It doesn't assure the public that the way the market

:18:50.:18:55.

works and we did go into the last general election, saying the market

:18:55.:18:58.

needed reforming. What's your response to today's announce snplt

:18:58.:19:02.

I think the energy crisis has been predicted for such a long time,

:19:02.:19:06.

it's a shame we're in this position and it's taken so long to sort it

:19:06.:19:12.

out. As a consumer, simplicity will be a very good thing because it is

:19:12.:19:16.

baffling. The proposals seem to have come from Ofgem. They have

:19:16.:19:21.

brought the idea forward. You want to abolish Ofgem. Part of the

:19:21.:19:24.

proposal they put forward and other things they've done in the last

:19:24.:19:29.

year is catching up on the job they should have done some years ago. We

:19:29.:19:32.

do not believe, looking at last week for example, they were on the

:19:33.:19:39.

case in terms of concerns about the way wholesale prices were being

:19:39.:19:43.

fixed. It's also why we believe, actually, we should have a new

:19:43.:19:47.

regulator with the powers that when wholesale prices fall that is

:19:47.:19:51.

forced on the energy companies to pass on to bill payers. Do you

:19:52.:19:55.

agree? Whatever the regulate oris called, whatever it is about, it

:19:55.:19:59.

should be a consumer champion, in a market where we're completely

:20:00.:20:05.

outpowered by the energy giants. Has jom receive -- Ofgem failed in

:20:05.:20:09.

that? We're not pleased they've done everything they can for the

:20:09.:20:12.

consumer. They're starting to flex some muscle. Whatever it's called,

:20:12.:20:16.

it needs to be a pro-consumer watchdog on the side of the koust

:20:16.:20:20.

mer facing up to these energy giants. You'll have to sack

:20:20.:20:26.

hundreds of energy experts pay them off and they'll get rehired under a

:20:26.:20:31.

new regulator, why not just reform? I think everyone we agree that the

:20:31.:20:35.

esteem of this sector that it's very important to us as consumers

:20:35.:20:40.

but the economy as well has never been as such a low ebb. We think

:20:40.:20:43.

there has to be radical change, including an Energy Bill that

:20:43.:20:46.

introduces more competition, but also a tough new Energywatch dog

:20:46.:20:50.

that can command the confidence of the public and if that means change,

:20:50.:20:55.

that means change and we need to do that. More competition, more

:20:55.:21:01.

companies, mortarives, we go round in a circle to a SIStive that will

:21:01.:21:04.

be complicated. -- system that is complicated. We're acknowledging

:21:04.:21:08.

that the liberalised market isn't working, not working in the

:21:08.:21:12.

interest of consumers. I think the watchdog that scrutinises the way

:21:12.:21:16.

these rules are put into place and enforces them will need to be very,

:21:16.:21:21.

very tough on suppliers that have a track record of doing their best to

:21:21.:21:25.

confuse consumers, avoid them getting on the best price. How this

:21:25.:21:29.

is done is as important as the announcement We have six companies

:21:29.:21:33.

that dominate 99% of the market. None of the others can get in in

:21:33.:21:36.

the way it's structured at the moment. They generate energy, sell

:21:36.:21:41.

it to themselves and then on to us. You didn't get anywhere with it

:21:41.:21:44.

either. We went into the last election saying that had to change

:21:44.:21:49.

and we needed a different pool. There was a popular survey, three

:21:49.:21:52.

quarters said they believed, 74% of people thought energy companies

:21:52.:21:57.

should be stripped of the power to set prices entirely are Ofgem

:21:57.:22:00.

taking on the responsibility instead. Would you agree to that?

:22:00.:22:04.

Yes, I suppose that would be a very good idea if it reflected the

:22:04.:22:08.

wholesale price. I would like to know that the cost of the renewable

:22:08.:22:12.

obligations which are put on. People get very upset about the

:22:12.:22:18.

cost of renewables. We've talked endlessly about that being more

:22:18.:22:21.

transparent. Are you expecting an announcement on that as well?

:22:21.:22:25.

They're all over the shop on renewables with the Energy Minister

:22:25.:22:27.

anti-renewables and the Secretary of State in favour of them.

:22:27.:22:32.

terms of the bills, people don't know, do they? People don't. I

:22:32.:22:36.

think it's true that the suppliers should be forced to do much more to

:22:36.:22:40.

complain what is driving costs here. As Caroline said we've had

:22:40.:22:44.

speculation that it's been a rigged market. There's a lot of Government

:22:44.:22:48.

policy that's passed through to our bills. People don't know about that.

:22:48.:22:53.

There are two things that need to happen - one, the suppliers need to

:22:53.:22:56.

tell us in plain English, what we're paying for. Secondly, we need

:22:56.:23:00.

some confidence that the price we're paying is fair. That's why

:23:00.:23:04.

we've been saying to Number Ten, look, don't just move on how many

:23:04.:23:08.

tariffs are available, but you have to reassure consumers that the

:23:08.:23:11.

default price you're paying will be fair. That means you have to have

:23:11.:23:16.

an urgent review of what ends up in our bill. Thank you.

:23:16.:23:21.

To the countryside, ah, idyllic and wonderful. Or is it? Adam went to

:23:21.:23:31.

find out. About a fifth of the UK lives in

:23:31.:23:35.

areas like this, the village of Marnhull in rural Dorset. Most

:23:35.:23:39.

places in this part of the world have got some kind of link with

:23:39.:23:43.

Thomas Hardy. This place has got a really good one, because it's where

:23:43.:23:47.

Tess of the D'Urbervilles was born and bred. Let's go and find out

:23:47.:23:53.

what issues affect modern life in the countryside. They didn't dot

:23:53.:23:57.

milking like this in Tess's day. At Home Farm the big worry is the

:23:57.:24:04.

price of a pint. The price of this per litre would be 86p. The price

:24:04.:24:08.

of this is �1. This is very readily falling out of the sky at the

:24:08.:24:13.

moment and this takes a huge amount of production. The supermarkets

:24:13.:24:17.

obviously can use this as a loss leader. I think people perhaps

:24:17.:24:21.

don't understand quite the amount of work and effort that goes into

:24:21.:24:25.

producing milk. Back down in the village, I've found another problem,

:24:25.:24:31.

hello? Hello? Yes, that's right, the mobile phone signal here is

:24:31.:24:36.

absolutely rubbish. And that's priority number one for this Dorset

:24:36.:24:42.

resident, who's the new head of the Countryside Alliance. I used to be

:24:42.:24:46.

a soldier. I say half joking, you get a better signal in Helmand.

:24:46.:24:51.

That is really now unacceptable as is the lack of provision for rural

:24:51.:24:56.

broad band. The Government has a good rural Broadband going, but it

:24:56.:24:59.

needs speeding up and refining. Rural Broadband is key to rural

:24:59.:25:02.

business in the way that rural businesses work. The internet gives

:25:02.:25:06.

you so many opportunities that we haven't had before. One business

:25:06.:25:09.

here that doesn't need the internet is the Robin Hill Stores, run by

:25:09.:25:15.

husband and wife team Bob and Sue. So, what's on the minds of their

:25:15.:25:20.

regulars? It's the bus services, they're cutting them completely to

:25:20.:25:24.

certain areas, ie Salisbury, Dorchester and Yeovil. A lot of

:25:24.:25:28.

people rely on the bus services for a day out. While Sue is concerned

:25:28.:25:33.

about the dwindling number of Post Office services, they're asked to

:25:33.:25:37.

provide. For us, personally, that means that comes off our bottom

:25:37.:25:42.

line. We're paid on a commission basis. So the Government taking all

:25:42.:25:45.

these services or potentially taking the service as way from us

:25:45.:25:51.

means a cut in pay. That makes it difficult to sustain our store.

:25:51.:25:55.

Although there's one thing that several shoppers told me they were

:25:55.:25:59.

buying into - David Cameron's idea of the Big Society. People are

:26:00.:26:04.

willing to help themselves because it's not anonymous. We all know

:26:04.:26:09.

each other. We are small rb -- a small enough community that we can

:26:09.:26:14.

do things for each other. Often people lay blame when there's a lot

:26:14.:26:18.

they can do themselves. No amount of community spirit can solve the

:26:18.:26:24.

other problem gripping the village, sky high petrol prices. Marnhull

:26:24.:26:28.

might seem fairly well to do and the street names aren't run of the

:26:28.:26:32.

mill, but the issues you find here, you'll find nearly ever where in

:26:32.:26:38.

the countryside. And with us now is the Secretary of

:26:38.:26:42.

State for the environment and rural affairs Owen Paterson. Welcome to

:26:42.:26:45.

the Daily Politics. Is the countryside neglected? Absolutely

:26:45.:26:48.

not. For the first time in years, we've got ministers looking after

:26:48.:26:51.

the countryside, who all come from the countryside and really

:26:51.:26:56.

understand it. It will take time, but we've set up a lot of

:26:56.:26:59.

arrangements so we can work closely with the countryside. One of the

:26:59.:27:04.

first things I did was launch a big paiper in Cumbria making a complete

:27:04.:27:08.

commitment that Government policy would be countryside proofed, so

:27:08.:27:10.

countryside policies come through us to people who really understand

:27:10.:27:17.

it. I was born in the countryside. I've lived there all my life. I've

:27:17.:27:21.

represented north Shropshire for 15 years. Big statement. Big promise,

:27:21.:27:25.

are you convinced? We heard the problems, lack of Broadband,

:27:25.:27:29.

stopping rural business, lack of affordable housing. Well, it's

:27:29.:27:34.

great that Mr Paterson is so committed, but I think it's coming

:27:34.:27:38.

from a history which has not been so countryside friendly perhaps. A

:27:38.:27:41.

lot of people in the countryside for the reasons that you said feel

:27:42.:27:46.

rather neglected. I think it's not just ministers, though ministers

:27:46.:27:50.

have not always had such understanding, it's civil servants

:27:50.:27:54.

who tend to come from the south- east and think it's a nuisance.

:27:54.:27:58.

What is the raw deal about, what are they most upset about? There's

:27:58.:28:01.

a combination of things which aren't necessarily in the control

:28:01.:28:05.

of the Government, for example, high fuel prices make a very

:28:05.:28:08.

significant difference in the countryside because there's not

:28:08.:28:12.

much alternative. There are things which can be done, badgers is on

:28:12.:28:15.

hold. We mustn't talk about it I understand. Course you can, talk

:28:15.:28:21.

about whatever you like. But milk prices and for example, the state

:28:21.:28:26.

of trees, that is very tragic and people feel those things very

:28:26.:28:28.

strongly. Do you think the Government responded adequately or

:28:28.:28:34.

was it not a priority? I think they have responded quite well recently,

:28:34.:28:40.

but I think that the issue is that for example, when the Forestry

:28:40.:28:44.

Commission was under discussion a year ago, it wasn't very well

:28:44.:28:48.

handled. The -- they did the wrong thing. It wouldn't have mattered if

:28:48.:28:52.

the forest had been sold because the own irship isn't the issue.

:28:52.:28:59.

It's whether -- ownership isn't the issue. It's whether you have access.

:28:59.:29:01.

Those people should have been looking after the trees and these

:29:02.:29:06.

problems. That's the accusation that you've taken away the

:29:06.:29:10.

expertise from within DEFRA itself and that has contributed to the

:29:10.:29:14.

problem with ash die back. We put more money back into research on

:29:14.:29:20.

trees, but... I've only been there for two months. I know. If you look

:29:20.:29:24.

at the last few years, the trend has been the other way. Do you

:29:24.:29:29.

accept that? I've said publicically and I'll say it again, we have to

:29:29.:29:32.

completely change our attitude to trees in the forestry. We have to

:29:32.:29:36.

renew our whole policy because we know there are a number of very

:29:36.:29:43.

dangerous tree diseases out there. There's the larch tree disease and

:29:43.:29:48.

in the chestnuts. The Americans lots billions of chestnut trees.

:29:48.:29:53.

I'm not sure we can treat plant and tree products as a free, tradable

:29:53.:29:57.

commodity any more. We send seedlings to Holland and bring them

:29:57.:30:02.

back and plapbtd them here. I'm prepared for a radical look at how

:30:02.:30:06.

we handle our forestry and tree environment and the trade in those

:30:06.:30:10.

materials, which up to now, have been free. To go back to the point

:30:10.:30:13.

about people in the countryside and feeling that they have perhaps been

:30:13.:30:16.

neglected in the past. Government do things about the lack of

:30:16.:30:26.
:30:26.:30:29.

Broadband, the lack of public Having represented a rural area for

:30:29.:30:33.

15 years, one of the biggest problems I had was getting across

:30:33.:30:37.

to her but ministers, and civil servants... I would entirely agree

:30:37.:30:42.

with somebody who was on that kick just then - our rural broadband is

:30:42.:30:47.

absolutely fundamental. Improving that catapults every kind of rural

:30:47.:30:51.

activity, on a level playing field with people in the cities. It is

:30:51.:30:55.

not just businesses, it is about delivering health services, and

:30:55.:31:01.

also elderly people, who can be isolated. The first week I got in I

:31:01.:31:08.

went to Cumbria to launch a major initiative on broadband. We are

:31:08.:31:13.

spending half a billion pounds on broadband. The other comment,

:31:13.:31:17.

regarding the mobile phones, it does help to have a minister like

:31:17.:31:21.

me who is completely exasperated by the dire quality of our mobile

:31:21.:31:31.
:31:31.:31:31.

phone networks. I have had meetings with Maria Miller and Eric Pickles,

:31:31.:31:35.

we are quite determined to get this right. We are working extremely

:31:35.:31:39.

hard on it. But it does help to have ministers who have a gut

:31:39.:31:42.

feeling for this, who know how exasperated people are in the

:31:42.:31:48.

countryside. One thing about housing is the possible need to

:31:48.:31:52.

have big estates and high rise blocks, what about that in the

:31:52.:31:56.

countryside? I think actually in the countryside, it is often a case

:31:56.:32:00.

of quite small units, which can be difficult to get through planning.

:32:00.:32:05.

Quite often, once they have got through planning, the need has

:32:05.:32:11.

actually gone away, because people have moved. So, I think small is

:32:11.:32:13.

beautiful in the countryside, in terms of affordable housing. I

:32:13.:32:18.

think that is what is needed, rather than big estates. What do

:32:18.:32:21.

you think about the framework on planning from the Government?

:32:22.:32:24.

don't think it will make much difference to the issue I have just

:32:24.:32:29.

been speaking about, but I think it will make a big difference to the

:32:29.:32:32.

big infrastructure projects, which are not what people want.

:32:32.:32:36.

planning, we have allowed local people to come forward with local

:32:36.:32:40.

plans. I am clear, we cannot freeze the countryside, there has to be

:32:40.:32:46.

development. That affects our youngest people, just getting on

:32:46.:32:49.

the jobs ladder, who need affordable housing. I think we have

:32:49.:32:52.

done a great thing for the countryside, allowing development

:32:52.:32:58.

which is in tune with locals people's views and needs. Except,

:32:58.:33:03.

of course, there will be a case where central government can say,

:33:03.:33:07.

certain authorities are blocking plans, and you will be able to ride

:33:07.:33:11.

roughshod over those authorities. No, because the concept gives real

:33:11.:33:15.

power to local councillors. It comes up from the bottom. We have

:33:15.:33:20.

seen it already, it is working. of your targets was the radical

:33:20.:33:24.

reform of the agricultural policy in Europe - how can you hope to get

:33:24.:33:27.

that, including the fisheries policies? It is just not going to

:33:27.:33:32.

happen, Tony Blair tried it, how are you going to succeed? It is a

:33:33.:33:37.

long shot, because I am one of 27, which is one of the problems. You

:33:37.:33:42.

mentioned the fisheries policy - I came up with a fisheries policy

:33:42.:33:46.

when I was in opposition, to establish national local control.

:33:46.:33:51.

We have a coalition policy of reform of the CAP. The minister in

:33:51.:33:58.

charge has gone a long way, on one of the most contentious issues,

:33:58.:34:02.

which is the problem of discards, good, healthy fish being thrown

:34:02.:34:08.

away. Richard has done a fantastic job in our negotiations. It is

:34:08.:34:13.

complicated, it has been to the council, and it is now going to the

:34:13.:34:16.

European Parliament. We are looking to get a ban, which would be really

:34:16.:34:21.

good.. But you have set yourself that the eurozone could effectively

:34:21.:34:25.

create that inner core, then Britain would be permanently on the

:34:25.:34:31.

outside, permanently out voted on these issues. Well, actually, if

:34:31.:34:35.

you look at what Richard has done on the CAP, by working with like-

:34:35.:34:41.

minded allies, major progress has been made. It does not go as far as

:34:41.:34:47.

some of us would like, but it is a stark. Has the government policy on

:34:47.:34:53.

onshore wind farms changed? I do not to energy policy. You do in

:34:53.:34:58.

terms of the impact on the rural economy - has it changed? No. John

:34:58.:35:01.

Hayes has been clear that he is going to deliver a certain amount

:35:01.:35:05.

of policy for wind farms. I have been clear that there are

:35:05.:35:08.

appropriate places for certain kinds of energy and inappropriate

:35:08.:35:14.

places. It is horses for courses. In my part of the world, it is a

:35:14.:35:23.

stupid place to build wind farms, because of the trees. If there is

:35:23.:35:27.

no wind in your constituency, why are EDF in talks with Shropshire

:35:27.:35:32.

council over the possible placing of eight turbines? And you should

:35:32.:35:36.

see the number of letters I am getting at the moment opposing the

:35:36.:35:39.

establishment of even pipelines linking up possible wind farms

:35:39.:35:44.

which may be built in Wales. It is all hypothetical. People get

:35:44.:35:49.

absolutely incandescent about wind turbines, it is almost the thing

:35:49.:35:53.

which people feel most passionate about. But the windy places tend to

:35:53.:35:56.

be on the top of hills, and they tend to be the most beautiful parts

:35:56.:36:03.

of the countryside. I think what John Hayes said was that there was

:36:03.:36:07.

enough capacity to meet the target which has been set, but he has also

:36:07.:36:15.

quite rightly picked up. Made by Clive Aslet that building turbines

:36:15.:36:18.

in inappropriate places causes massive opposition, because these

:36:18.:36:23.

turbines do not generate much power. Wide end did Peter Lilley saying a

:36:23.:36:27.

secret report that he believed the Chancellor privately regretted all

:36:27.:36:36.

of the green commitments which had been made? -- why then? I cannot

:36:36.:36:40.

speak for what Peter Lilley said. I was hopefully last week, supporting

:36:40.:36:45.

British food. All I can say is, I do not to energy policy... But you

:36:45.:36:49.

to do the impact of it on the rural economy. Yes, and there have been

:36:49.:36:55.

quite clear that it is horses for courses. Some form of hydro power

:36:55.:36:59.

may be appropriate, as long as it works with the grain of nature and

:36:59.:37:04.

does not destroy fish stocks. But in inland counties, it is

:37:04.:37:08.

impossible to exaggerate the anger that there is at inappropriate

:37:08.:37:11.

installations of turbines, where there is not enough wind to justify

:37:11.:37:17.

it. Should the subsidies continue for onshore wind? I am not keen on

:37:17.:37:21.

subsidising anything. If these technologies are able to, they

:37:21.:37:28.

should stand on their own. I do the impact on the rural economy and

:37:28.:37:36.

environment. I think it is incredible that the renewable

:37:36.:37:41.

obligations mean that we import woodchip and logs with Bach on in

:37:41.:37:47.

order to put them into biomass power stations. What has been done

:37:47.:37:51.

to inspect that material to make sure it is not carrying treat

:37:51.:37:56.

diseases, I wonder? This was highlighted by Defra last year.

:37:56.:38:02.

set up this task force shortly after I came into a look at how we

:38:02.:38:07.

handle all plant and tree materials. I think part of his investigation

:38:07.:38:12.

will be looking at biomass. I am looking at a major and radical

:38:12.:38:16.

change at the way we handle all plant and tree products. Thank you

:38:16.:38:19.

very much for coming onto the programme. Well, according to the

:38:20.:38:22.

Government's first report on the quality of our lives, which

:38:22.:38:24.

incidentally is out today, people in rural areas shouldn't be

:38:25.:38:28.

whinging at all. The report found that the lives of people in rural

:38:28.:38:30.

Britain was significantly better than those who live in urban areas.

:38:31.:38:34.

Women tend to be happier than men. And people over 60 also tend to be

:38:34.:38:38.

happier. Oh, and if you live in the Outer Hebridies, Orkney or Shetland,

:38:38.:38:40.

you've apparently got life taped. Anyway, the man charged with

:38:40.:38:43.

overseeing the report is the former Cabinet Secretary Gus, now Lord,

:38:43.:38:47.

O'Donnell. I spoke to him earlier this morning and I began by asking

:38:47.:38:54.

him how happiness was measured. Well, happiness is something

:38:54.:38:58.

subjective, it is how you feel. We asked people how they were feeling,

:38:58.:39:04.

but it is not the only aspect of wellbeing. It is one aspect. We

:39:04.:39:08.

also want to measure people's life- expectancy, their health, aspects

:39:08.:39:11.

of basically whether they are having a good lie for not.

:39:11.:39:16.

obvious response is, in these straitened times, is this not just

:39:16.:39:20.

a waste of money? For somebody to say, if you have a job, you will be

:39:20.:39:25.

happier than if you are unemployed? Yes, but we measure success by the

:39:25.:39:31.

change in GDP - how stupid is that? Actually, in this downturn, GDP has

:39:31.:39:36.

fallen quite a lot, but employment has stayed quite high, so the

:39:36.:39:40.

impact on wellbeing is not as much as if you just looked at the GDP

:39:40.:39:45.

numbers. How can the Government make us feel happier, what policies

:39:45.:39:48.

can they passed? First of all, it can understand what it is that

:39:48.:39:52.

makes people feel better. In a sense, this is feeding back, we

:39:52.:39:57.

need to understand what it is that the public are unhappy about, what

:39:57.:40:01.

is really bad for their lives. For example, we know from all this

:40:01.:40:04.

research that commuting is something that people really

:40:04.:40:08.

dislike. There are things we can do about trying to emphasise and

:40:08.:40:13.

improve the quality of commuting. There are things like in macro

:40:13.:40:17.

policy thinking about different kinds of policies - how do you pick

:40:17.:40:25.

that one which keeps most people in jobs? Does this not also sound a

:40:25.:40:32.

bit statist? Do people want the Government to decide about their

:40:32.:40:37.

well-being? It is definitely not that. We are giving you the power.

:40:37.:40:41.

So far, the Government has been saying, here are the services we

:40:41.:40:45.

are going to deliver to you. But actually, we want to find out from

:40:45.:40:50.

you what really makes a difference. For example, in health services, we

:40:50.:40:53.

know that car parking charges really matter to people in

:40:53.:40:56.

hospitals. So, not just improving the quality of the Health Service,

:40:56.:41:02.

but all the ancillary things around it. You could argue that George

:41:02.:41:06.

Osborne's economic policy has been designed to satisfy the credit

:41:06.:41:12.

rating agencies - do you think that used to narrow? Well, the policy I

:41:12.:41:16.

hope is not being designed about credit rating agencies. That is

:41:16.:41:19.

what we hear from the Government all the time, that it is about

:41:19.:41:24.

having good credit, keeping interests -- interest rates low.

:41:24.:41:28.

Well, the credit rating agencies have not exactly got a fantastic

:41:28.:41:33.

record in this process, so I do not agree with that. We saw America had

:41:33.:41:37.

its credit rating dropped and its interest rates did not move at all.

:41:37.:41:41.

It is absolutely right that we try our best to maintain a good credit

:41:41.:41:45.

rating, but it is not the goal of policy. That should be trying to

:41:45.:41:50.

maximise will be in, it should have -- it should be about a recovery

:41:50.:41:54.

which is employment which, which gets us back on track and learnt

:41:54.:41:57.

the lessons of the financial crisis. The Civil Service will not be

:41:57.:42:01.

feeling very happy at the moment, with 1,000 jobs going in the

:42:01.:42:04.

Department of education - what would you say to them but that this

:42:04.:42:08.

process has been going on, the Civil Service has been at the

:42:08.:42:11.

forefront of contributing to the deficit reduction process. This has

:42:11.:42:15.

been tough. We do have the smallest Civil Service since the Second

:42:15.:42:21.

World War and the numbers are going down, as we improve efficiency.

:42:21.:42:25.

remaining ones are aware that they did not cause this problem, but

:42:25.:42:28.

they are playing their part to contribute towards it. I think

:42:28.:42:31.

they're doing a fantastic job. If you think of the fact that there

:42:31.:42:34.

was a lot less money, and they are improving services, what I would

:42:34.:42:38.

say to them is, this is a time when you have got the opportunity to

:42:38.:42:43.

innovate. Yes, there is no money, so we need to work incredibly hard,

:42:43.:42:48.

innovatively, with new ideas, to make sure that people who really

:42:48.:42:51.

depend on public services are not adversely affected by deficit-

:42:51.:42:56.

reduction. Do you agree, then, that the civil service is being

:42:56.:43:01.

undervalued? Massively undervalued. I am just about to go off to

:43:01.:43:06.

Singapore. I wish that our civil servants were paid in the same way

:43:06.:43:10.

that they are in Singapore, which is closer to market rates.

:43:10.:43:13.

Certainly I think our civil servants are undervalued. But when

:43:13.:43:17.

times are tight, a pink sepals servants know that we need to play

:43:17.:43:24.

our part. We are all in this together. -- I think that civil

:43:24.:43:30.

servants know that... But it is not just about jobs being lost, it is

:43:31.:43:35.

about rhetoric coming from government, saying that the Civil

:43:35.:43:38.

Service needs to harness the buccaneering spirit of war, the

:43:38.:43:41.

enemies of enterprise speech, characterising the Civil Service as

:43:41.:43:46.

a block on progress - are they being demonised? What I would say

:43:46.:43:50.

is, and the challenge I put back to the Prime Minister when he used

:43:50.:43:56.

that phrase was to say, OK, let's do this, so I set up something

:43:56.:43:59.

called I would take challenge, asking all businesses to tell us

:43:59.:44:03.

what red tape they wanted us to get rid of, and we will now push goes

:44:03.:44:07.

through, and we will see who of the block to this. Hopefully a lot will

:44:07.:44:10.

come from this. If it doesn't, it is either because businesses have

:44:10.:44:14.

not told us what is wrong, or it has been decided but the chicken

:44:14.:44:20.

that these are not the things to do. -- it has been decided politically

:44:20.:44:24.

that these are not the right things to do. I think David Cameron is

:44:24.:44:31.

trying to say, look, the past is not necessarily a good guide to the

:44:31.:44:34.

future. We need to be innovative, we need to take risks, we need a

:44:34.:44:38.

culture which says, if something goes wrong, that is fine. In the

:44:38.:44:42.

private sector, you try 10 projects, if six of them succeed, you are

:44:42.:44:48.

doing well. In the Civil Service, if we have four failures, we would

:44:48.:44:51.

have four hearings before the Public Accounts Committee. How many

:44:51.:44:55.

times have we talk about the Olympics and the success of the

:44:55.:44:59.

Olympics, and gone back to analyse the lessons of success as opposed

:44:59.:45:03.

to the lessons of failure?. Should the Cabinet Secretary be defending

:45:03.:45:07.

the civil-service more edge that he has a very difficult job. There is

:45:07.:45:11.

no-one better than me to say that because I was in it for six years.

:45:11.:45:14.

But you were not pleased about the enemies of enterprise speech, were

:45:14.:45:19.

you? No, I was not because I did not think it was true. Where things

:45:19.:45:24.

are true, and where the Civil Service can be faulted, is where in

:45:24.:45:27.

the past we have stuck with, this is the way we have always done it,

:45:27.:45:31.

it is the safe way of doing things. What I am trying to do, and my

:45:31.:45:35.

successors, is to change that mindset, to say, actually,

:45:35.:45:40.

innovation is fine, we will accept your failure, and let's hope the

:45:40.:45:44.

whole system will get into that mood of celebrating success and

:45:44.:45:54.
:45:54.:45:56.

learning from failure. Are you a I am. I have complete control over

:45:56.:45:59.

the allocation of my time at the moment. I spend a lot of time on

:45:59.:46:03.

exercise, outside. We know that matters a lot. Better than working

:46:04.:46:07.

in Government? I can come on the TV and say what I really think, which

:46:07.:46:12.

was a freedom I didn't have before. Yes, and is that liberating? It is,

:46:12.:46:17.

yes. I'm enjoying it. You see, the joys of being able to come on the

:46:18.:46:21.

Daily Politics. You've got that pleasure, of course, we have the

:46:21.:46:25.

pleasure of you. Do you think these things are worthwhile, a well being

:46:25.:46:29.

commission, a report into trying to allow Government to find out what

:46:29.:46:33.

makes people happy? As soon as you put something like well being into

:46:33.:46:38.

a report it looks ridiculous. It's easy to make fun of it. It's an

:46:38.:46:42.

idea that is rather good that David Cameron has come up with. But

:46:42.:46:46.

perhaps not as well communicated as it might have been rather like the

:46:46.:46:50.

Big Society. It's particularly important now, at a time when a lot

:46:50.:46:54.

of people feel trapped in a somewhat negative economic

:46:54.:46:57.

environment that we look at the things which actually do make

:46:57.:47:05.

people happy. Are you happy? happy. But I think that people are

:47:05.:47:08.

temperamentally happy or not. is the problem with the survey,

:47:08.:47:13.

you're either suss peptible to it or not. That's true. But it's

:47:13.:47:16.

interesting that people are on the whole happier in the countryside.

:47:16.:47:19.

They have less money on the whole. They have a lot of things they have

:47:19.:47:22.

to deal with. They feel part of a community and that's very important

:47:22.:47:27.

to people and also, the fact that, the point that Gus O'Donnell made

:47:27.:47:32.

that if you have control over your time, that's also very helpful.

:47:32.:47:35.

These things don't necessarily cost very much or may not be to do with

:47:35.:47:41.

money at all. Exactly what he said. Now here's a thought - should MPs

:47:41.:47:44.

job share? One MP think it's would be a rather good idea and is

:47:44.:47:48.

suggesting it to the House of Commons as I speak. Gyles spent the

:47:48.:47:51.

morning getting to the bottom of it. We live in a modern world. Plenty

:47:51.:47:58.

of people work parttime, but would it work for MPs? Well, there is a

:47:58.:48:01.

rule going through -- before MPs. There is a suggestion it might

:48:01.:48:05.

happen, at least a sensible debate about it. With me are two MPs,

:48:05.:48:09.

tpwhun favour and one, I think it's fair to say, who isn't. Meg, why is

:48:09.:48:14.

this not a daft idea? In other parts of any business people can

:48:14.:48:18.

choose to job share. You get two for the price of one, two people

:48:18.:48:21.

committed to working how to make that job work well together and

:48:21.:48:27.

balancing it with the rest of their lives. I am assuming you would have

:48:27.:48:30.

to be honest enough to say to the electorate, you would have to be

:48:30.:48:34.

elected as a job share, not oh, I fancy taking Time Out and bringing

:48:34.:48:38.

someone else in. Absolutely. Because of the nature of the job,

:48:38.:48:42.

you stand for election as a job share, complaining how you would

:48:42.:48:47.

share it, would you split it by days of the week, by topics and ho

:48:47.:48:51.

-- how to handle votes on difficult issues. In parts of the country I

:48:51.:48:55.

think the electorate would go for it. You once described this as

:48:55.:48:59.

bonkers. Why? Is this April fool's days? This is a crack pot idea.

:48:59.:49:03.

This is further demeaning Parliament. The job doesn't lend

:49:03.:49:08.

itself to job share. In a time when we're looking to have less elected

:49:08.:49:12.

Parliamentarians to have double the number by job sharing is crazy.

:49:12.:49:16.

Madness. You know it wouldn't be double because only a few would go

:49:16.:49:22.

for it. Do your staff know what's in your in tray, do your staff know

:49:22.:49:26.

what you're covering, why couldn't someone else know as well? At a

:49:26.:49:30.

time when we have less people voting than ever, to put two people

:49:30.:49:35.

forward and to say for a five-year period you're going to job share,

:49:35.:49:38.

how would you decide who would do what part of the job? I mean I want

:49:38.:49:44.

to see us woking longer hours at Westminster not less hours. I think

:49:44.:49:49.

the trend, enough is enough and to job share is the end. It's a

:49:49.:49:54.

peculiar idea in that you could think the same way about certain

:49:54.:49:59.

issues. On most issues people vote on the whip. In seven years in

:49:59.:50:02.

Parliament, there have been three, four occasions when there have been

:50:02.:50:07.

free votes on difficult issues, you would have to explain how you would

:50:07.:50:10.

decide thatened you get only one vote. You talk about doubling the

:50:10.:50:13.

numbers and cost, but you'd have two people sharing one office and

:50:13.:50:17.

one set of resources. There wouldn't be additional cost. What

:50:17.:50:21.

if one of you misbehaved? I think you'd have to again have a way of

:50:21.:50:28.

dealing with. It you would have to - I think two rational, sensible,

:50:28.:50:32.

professional people could sort it out. Job shares head of planning in

:50:32.:50:36.

a London borough. These are difficult jobs. You're shaking your

:50:36.:50:41.

head. We've all got big egos and for two people over five years not

:50:41.:50:48.

to change and not to fall out, this would be like a reality TV show.

:50:48.:50:52.

One of your colleagues stepped downforceing a by-election recently

:50:52.:50:56.

because they wanted to spend more time with their family. I'm not

:50:56.:51:00.

going to comment on a former colleague. They said they felt the

:51:00.:51:06.

pressure of family. Oh, for goodness sake. I think, you say for

:51:06.:51:09.

goodness sake, I had a flood of e- mails from women saying, you know

:51:09.:51:13.

if we want more real people in Parliament who understand and

:51:13.:51:17.

juggle real life, let's face it when we are in Westminster -

:51:17.:51:22.

isn't that sort of job. It could be. It's demeaning it. You are going to

:51:22.:51:29.

carry this on for a while. Just, do you think it could happen? It could.

:51:29.:51:33.

The option needs to be open. It would be a great thing. Prove it.

:51:33.:51:38.

I've got a bit of online research to do any way. Hand back to the

:51:38.:51:43.

studio. From college gene, from Gyles on his mobile and from David,

:51:43.:51:48.

back to you in the studio. OMG, she made it look too easy. I

:51:48.:51:52.

might be out of a job. Well done. Why couldn't there be a job share

:51:52.:51:57.

at Westminster? MPs should be able to manage that? It's difficult

:51:57.:52:00.

having a coalition between two parties and the idea of mini

:52:00.:52:06.

coalitions beggars belief. Why? There are so many other jobs that

:52:06.:52:10.

you could job share. Once you get over the initial how would it work,

:52:10.:52:16.

why wouldn't it agree? You would have to have complete agreement on

:52:16.:52:19.

every subject, which isn't possible. Because of the character of MPs

:52:19.:52:24.

people wouldn't agree. Yes. would need continuity. They would

:52:24.:52:27.

vote on the same issues at different times and they could vote

:52:27.:52:31.

different ways. No hands up for job sharing. Not for me. That hasn't

:52:31.:52:35.

passed in the studio. Now according to the Government's happiness

:52:35.:52:42.

survey, which we were talking about, money hasn't necessarily -- doesn't

:52:42.:52:44.

necessarily make you happy. With more of the super rich coming to

:52:44.:52:49.

live in the UK, you might have to watch out for a miserable mogul

:52:49.:52:53.

coming to live near you. The Mayor of London says we should welcome

:52:53.:52:57.

the rich and powerful with open arms, arguing that the more open

:52:57.:53:01.

our society to they and powerful the more dynamic and prosperous our

:53:01.:53:07.

economy will become, which was a major theme in his speech to the

:53:07.:53:11.

CBI yesterday. You should never underestimate the protean ability

:53:11.:53:15.

to find markets around the world. I never tire of telling you, you

:53:16.:53:22.

export bicycles to Holland, mosquito repellant to Brazil, TV

:53:22.:53:27.

antennas to Korea, tea to China, rice to India, Piers Morgan to

:53:27.:53:30.

America... LAUGHTER

:53:30.:53:35.

Not just cake to France, but I discovered the other day, we sell

:53:35.:53:40.

lavender perfume and lavender oil grown from south London lavender to

:53:40.:53:50.
:53:50.:53:50.

France. Parfum deBromley. If we can sell that, my friends, we can sell

:53:50.:53:54.

anything, can't we? That is the achievement and the result of the

:53:54.:53:59.

imagination of British business. Ever since London was founded in

:53:59.:54:07.

48AD by a bunch of pushy Italian immigrants, London has benefited

:54:07.:54:11.

from the consciousness that we are a great global city and we will win,

:54:11.:54:16.

if we think global and open ourselves to the worldment Boris

:54:16.:54:20.

Johnson, never knowingly understated. Joining us now is a

:54:20.:54:25.

person who co-incidentally has written about -- a book about

:54:25.:54:34.

autocrats. Cysta Freeland. How did such a small group of people take

:54:34.:54:41.

such a large part of the pie? one hand globalisation, the

:54:41.:54:45.

technology revolution, this really profound change is making it

:54:45.:54:49.

possible for people to earn bigger fortunes than ever before and to

:54:49.:54:53.

earn them very, very quickly. At the same time, we're seeing mill

:54:53.:54:56.

low class hollowed out. That's the big economic shift that we're

:54:56.:55:00.

seeing and all trying to come to terms with. What's caused that? I

:55:00.:55:04.

suppose generally there was a feeling that the middle class

:55:04.:55:06.

extended post-war, slowly but surely, more people became better

:55:07.:55:13.

off. You're now talking about the very, very top 0.1% talking off

:55:13.:55:19.

from the rest. Shooting off even as we're seeing median wages in --

:55:19.:55:23.

wages stagnate. Economists talk about this, British economists talk

:55:23.:55:27.

about the rise of the lovely and the Laosy jobs. It's this two-speed

:55:27.:55:33.

world. It really is. I think it's very intuitive. On the one hand

:55:33.:55:36.

globalisation. If you're running a business, producing something that

:55:36.:55:41.

is able to really take off, you can sell to the whole world instead of

:55:41.:55:48.

just to your country. We heard Boris Johnson talking about parfum

:55:48.:55:51.

de Bromley. Can you sell into a global market. If you're a winner

:55:51.:55:55.

in a field, that's great. Then the technology revolution, exact lit

:55:55.:56:00.

same thing, that first of all, for superstars like Lady GaGa she can

:56:00.:56:04.

sing to a global audience and not just a local one. If you were

:56:04.:56:08.

running, think about Facebook, one of the huge companies of our time,

:56:08.:56:12.

do you know how many people work there? No. Fewer than 5,000.

:56:13.:56:15.

Because technology has made that happen. It's a technology company

:56:15.:56:19.

and worth billions. You mentioned Lady GaGa and Facebook, Google, who

:56:19.:56:25.

else are we talking about? Who is a Plutocrat? The technology guys,

:56:25.:56:33.

finance, absolutely, and then the emerging markets, ultra-well airs,

:56:33.:56:38.

the -- Ultra-billionaires. He would say come on in. Is it the case that

:56:38.:56:41.

these Plutocrats pay lower tax than their cleaners. That was the

:56:41.:56:44.

rhetoric used by British politicians. It's a bit of rhetoric

:56:44.:56:51.

that you are hearing around the world. Wairn Buffet has been

:56:51.:56:57.

talking about his secretary pays taxes at a higher rate than he does

:56:57.:57:02.

and Mitt Romney had to disclose his tax returns, 14% effective tax rate.

:57:03.:57:06.

That's remarkable. In your view of the world and all the Plutocrats

:57:06.:57:09.

you know, do you think it's true this argument that money trickles

:57:09.:57:14.

down from the top that the reason we must welcome the uberrich is

:57:14.:57:19.

that they'll spend money and we'll benefit? Is that true? I think we

:57:20.:57:25.

will benefit but it's causing social afrpbgs at the same time. I

:57:25.:57:28.

wrote a book called the Edwardian country house. That's when the idea

:57:28.:57:33.

of the Plutocrat really first arose. I'm amazed that the world is

:57:33.:57:36.

reverting to what it was at the beginning of the Twentieth Century.

:57:36.:57:42.

Do you welcome it? No, I think these extremes of wealth are very

:57:42.:57:46.

disconcerting and it's not the British way. When I left university

:57:46.:57:49.

people had a spectrum of jobs they might choose and everybody would

:57:49.:57:53.

roughly live the same sort of life. That's no longer the case. It

:57:53.:57:56.

affects the choice my children make, for example. There are jobs up

:57:56.:58:01.

there and others down there. Can I jump in? Of course. The Edwardian

:58:01.:58:05.

comparison is fascinating and right on. What's so interesting is this

:58:05.:58:10.

has happened to us before. It happened in the 19th century when

:58:10.:58:14.

you had the Industrial Revolution, very similar actually, you know,

:58:15.:58:18.

huge turbulent economic change, some people doing extremely well.

:58:18.:58:23.

Some people did really badly. Whu think about it, it required this

:58:23.:58:28.

tremendous social and political accommodation. Two world wars, a

:58:28.:58:30.

Great Depression, Communist Revolutions in Russia and in China.

:58:30.:58:34.

It's a very big thing. And in response, we invented what is

:58:34.:58:38.

effectively modern society, right, the Wem fair state didn't exist

:58:38.:58:42.

before that. -- welfare. The conclusion of my book is really to

:58:42.:58:46.

point out to all of us, we are living in a similarly turbulent

:58:46.:58:51.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news and debate including what are the big concerns of people in the countryside? With Environment Secretary, Owen Paterson and former civil service head, Lord O'Donnell on measuring well being in the UK. And should MPs be able to share jobs?


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