22/11/2012 Daily Politics


22/11/2012

Andrew Neil presents the latest political news and debate, including the latest on the EU budget from Brussels and Strasbourg. Plus Dominic Raab on prisoner voting rights.


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Transcript


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Afternoon folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. It's show time in

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Brussels. Can David Cameron win a freeze in the European budget which

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his eurosceptic party will buy? We'll have the latest from the EU

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capital and debate his chances with politicians from across Europe.

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As the Justice Secretary unveils options for allowing prisoners the

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vote, has the Government gone far enough to satisfy the European

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Court of Human Rights. Are they even right to try?

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It's 70 years since this man launched a report that changed

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Britain for ever. But would father of the welfare state William

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Beveridge be spinning in his grave if he could see the state of

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welfare today? And ahead of Dave's big day in

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Europe, we uncover the real man All that in the next hour. With us

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for the duration, James O'Shaughnessy, former policy

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adviser to David Cameron, currently working on a new chain of academies

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:01:48.:01:51.

with Wellington Public School. More of that later. But first, the BBC

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News channel have reported that Tony Hall has been appointed the

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new director general of the BBC. I was always in favour of Tony Hall,

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of course, and supported him from the start, even when he wasn't in

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line for the job! He was barely out of his pram when I said he should

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be the DG of the BBC! He is the former head of BBC News, so he is

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not a new kid on the block, but for a long while he has been chief

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executive of the Royal Opera House. So a lot of sitting on our

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programme of from now on. He succeeds George Entwistle, who

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lasted only 55 days in the post. I assume that he will last longer.

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Chris Patten has found a replacement, and kind of gone

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outside, going outside the existing hierarchy to bring somebody Baku

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used to be in the hierarchy. It is very BBC that it is somebody who is

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currently outside the BBC... Clearly he has gone out and got his

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man, Tony Hall was not an original applicant for the job.

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understanding is he did not apply for the job in the round that Mr

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Entwistle won. So they have gone out and recruited somebody quickly,

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which I'm sure is a good thing for the stability of the BBC. I guess

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Chris Patten thought, I need to get somebody out with the current

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structure, but I also need somebody who does know a bit about the BBC.

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It is still a managerial leadership position and you're still editor in

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chief. In Tony Hall, they are hoping they have found somebody who

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has got credibility on both fronts. He has done a great job as a

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journalist and also running the Royal Opera House. Are you

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available to be the new boss of the Royal Opera House? Not yet!

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Anywhere, there we go, Tony all is the new director general of the BBC.

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It's show time in Brussels. David Cameron arrived there this morning

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looking for allies to freeze the EU budget for the next seven years at

:04:07.:04:11.

its current level. There are those other than Britain who also want a

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real-terms freeze, as the jargon has it. But many more want an

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increase, especially those who do well out of Brussels largesse.

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There is already talk of compromise but the Prime Minister is still

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talking tough. I am not happy at all. These are

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important negotiations, at a time and we are making difficult

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decisions at home over public spending, it is quite wrong for

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there to beat proposals for this increased extra spending in the EU.

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So we will be negotiating very hard for a good deal for Britain's

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taxpayers and to keep the British rebate. They always say that sort

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of thing when they arrive. I wonder what he is going to say when he

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leaves. Let's go to the man who knows! Mark a card for us. Where

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are we in this Budget process? are involved in here, with a day of

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bilateral, conversations between government leaders between the

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president of the council and President Barroso. First up was

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President -- David Cameron, who was supposed to go in there and present

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his position for 15 minutes. He was in there for 35 minutes. He was

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first up because Britain it is still seen as key. If you can

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strike a deal with the British, perhaps you will get others on side.

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Afterwards, we are hearing there is a long way to go. I should say that

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the president of the council thinks he has moved a long way towards the

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British position. His people are going around saying that what they

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have on the table already amounts to a cut. The British are saying,

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not so fast, they want a further reduction. That deal would also

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involve some reduction in the British rebate, and as far as the

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British are concerned, that is non- negotiable. Tell me this, if Mr

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Cameron is sticking to his line in the sand, which is a real-terms

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freeze, I know other countries do not want much of an increase or any

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increase in the Budget. But is there anybody in the EU feeling as

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strongly as Britain about a real- terms freeze, and no further?

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think there are people who feel as strongly as the British, that

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spending needs to be reined in. Whether they go as far as the

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British, whether they would be prepared to use their veto, we

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don't know. But certainly, the Swedish, the Dutch, they are

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equally adamant that there has to be a freeze, or at least a large

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reduction in EU spending. What we don't know is whether they are

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prepared to compromise. The attitude here is that the British

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position is understandable, but most other countries come here,

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laying out their position beforehand, and then they

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compromise. The feeling here is that David Cameron has boxed

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himself into a corner. He has said, this is what we want, we will use

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our veto if necessary, but now he is here, he will come under great

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pressure to compromise. Some of those natural allies he has got to

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have signalled they might be prepared to compromise more than

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the British. You have got a long day ahead of you! Thank you for

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joining us. What he has said I think is right, that the

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negotiating position of the British Prime Minister is also the position

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he must negotiate, he hasn't got much room to compromise. Not at all.

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Coming off the back of the vote in the House of Commons, which pushed

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for a stronger position, more of a cut, I don't think he has room to

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compromise, I don't dig he wants to. He has been clear and consistent

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throughout, which is to keep the rebate and push for real-terms

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freeze. The other thing to bear in mind is that this isn't the last

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point at which a position can be made. Brinkmanship is the classic

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work in Europe. They can have this meeting and find another option, it

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is likely that nothing will happen this time around. You have worked

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with the Prime Minister. There are some Tory backbenchers are now

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questioning his Eurosceptic credentials. In your view how Euro-

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sceptic is he? A I think he is a Euro-sceptic, not to the extent of

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some people in the party, who want to leave. He wants to see a

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reformed Europe, he thinks our place is in a reformed Europe, that

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is the message he is taking. I think it is extraordinary to be

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thinking of adding 100 billion extra Euros, at a time when every

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single government of the 27 is cutting costs, it does seem an

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extraordinary proposition. We will see what happens. They will be

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burning the midnight oil! 3 SERPS, that is what they call it. -- three

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shirts. Now, David Cameron says the

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prospect of giving prisoners the vote makes him "physically ill" -

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but legislation to be announced later today could do exactly that.

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The issue of giving prisoners the vote has been a problem for British

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governments of all persuasions since the European Court of Human

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Rights first ruled in 2004 that a In February, MPs voted by 234 to 22

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to keep the ban, in response to a proposal to give the vote to

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offenders sentenced to a custodial sentence of less than four years.

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The government indicated it would respect Parliament's wishes by

:09:56.:10:06.
:10:06.:10:08.

doing the minimum needed to comply. 4pm tomorrow is the deadline for

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Britain to respond to the court's latest order on the issue. So it is

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expected that this afternoon the Justice Secretary Chris Grayling

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will publish a draft Bill with offering MPs a range of options:

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Votes for prisoners imprisoned for up to four years, for up to six

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:10:35.:10:42.

It is that blanket ban that annoys the European Court of. I'm now

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joined by the Conservative MP Dominic Raab, and the Director of

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:10:55.:10:56.

the campaign Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti. Dominic Raab, let me

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come to you first. I just want to get the policy here. A spokesman

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for the Prime Minister said yesterday, "if people go to prison,

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they lose the right to vote, that is our policy." but today the

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government is introducing legislation that could change that

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policy, so what is the policy? think the policy is that ultimately

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the Prime Minister and the President of the Supreme Court have

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also made his point, it is for Parliament to make these decisions.

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There is a feeling this is being punted into the long grass.

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Ultimately parliament will have to decide between the range of options.

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I thought the government policy was that there should be no vote for

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prisoners. Since when did you have a policy when you offered an

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alternative to the policy? It is a reasonable point. Constitutionally,

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the answer is that the Prime Minister wants to allow Parliament

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to decide because ultimately it is for elected lawmakers to make the

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law of the land. It is clear that Prime Minister does not want to

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overturn the current band. Parliament but the way you did, --

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votes the way you did, what will you do? I think what will happen is

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the case will go back to the Strasbourg court, it will remain an

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and implemented ruling. It will go to the committee of ministers, who

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have been calling on Strasbourg to medal are less. There is no

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realistic chance of being kicked out of the Council of Europe, the

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worst we will get is a polite diplomatic rap on the knuckles.

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is very depressing to hear Dominic talking about flouting a court

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order. Because that is what we're talking about. Whether it is an

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international court, the local magistrates' court, identical

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majesty's government should pick and choose which court judgments to

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obey. Why should a kid I council estate obey the ASBO of the local

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magistrate if her Majesty's government want a baby this? There

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is so much room for manoeuvre. do you think should happen?

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personally support boats for all prisoners, because I don't know how

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you rehabilitate prisoners by saying they cannot vote. But the

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point is not now about prisoner voting any more, it is about

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whether we believe in the rule of law. I think the doublet to say, we

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will just ignore the court and we will not get kicked out of the

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Council of Europe, we might get kicked out one day. In the meantime,

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what kind of signal to we sent to Vladimir Putin... Do you think he

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is watching this? The Russian court floods that all the time. So this

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is the signal we are sending, it doesn't matter. My point to you is

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that we have never flattered the court before. The Russians have

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flouted it regularly, they are the biggest at doing that. Why would

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hours make any difference? I think that... I have heard in the past,

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in the days of Mr Blair, wanting to lock people up for 90 days, lock

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them up indefinitely without charge or trial, I heard Robert Mugabe's

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ministers saying, if you can do it in Britain, we can do it. It gives

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people a credibility that they do not deserve a for flouting

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international law. I think the point she is making his it is the

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job by ministers, they are bound to obey court rulings. You might not

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like the court ruling, made you shouldn't have signed up to it in

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the first place. You might not like the way it is going, but that is

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:15:02.:15:09.

It is precisely not what we signed up to. There is a big it issue. We

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can talk about prisoner voting. -- a big debt issue. What happens when

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you have this tribunal expanding? That is a legislative function.

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That is the attack on democracy. You cannot have democracy without

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the rule of law. Sometimes you need independent referees. This is now

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like the Supreme Court in America was in the 1960s. It is an activist

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court. It is making up its own rulings. There is no right to

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universal suffrage in the Convention of Human Rights. There

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is a right to participate in free elections. What the court rejected

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was a Victorian, blanket ban on prisoner voting. Convicted

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:16:14.:16:15.

prisoners. There is no blanket ban. You had your say, now it is my turn.

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I happen to believe in all prisoners voting. The court

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judgment could be implemented by something much more subtle and

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minimalist than that. Sometimes you do need to meet another institution

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halfway to keep democracy alive. you go to prison in this country,

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there is a blanket ban. If you are imprisoned for contempt of court

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boy fine default, you can vote. -- or a fine default. The point is,

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:16:57.:16:59.

there are lots of common sense compromise ways... Given that you

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are in favour of all prisoners getting the vote, what would the

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compromise be? The minimalist option offered in this Bill is that

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prisoners in for less than four months of... Six months, I think.

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Or people about to be released. Instead of having a fight with the

:17:20.:17:30.
:17:30.:17:31.

European Court, we wrote the convention largely, why don't we

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just agreed to six months? For most prisoners, there won't be an

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election in that time. People are about to be released from prison.

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The first point is, the six-month option would mean 5000 convicted

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criminals at least notionally getting the right to vote them in -

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- including many sexual offenders, violent offenders and homicide

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offenders. Many people would have a problem with that. She seems to

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think we are in a diplomatic haggle with the Strasbourg court. That is

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contrary to the rule of law. Either they are right or they are wrong.

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It is not applying the convention. Should you not come out? I support

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the convention. That is a nonsense position. When Britain signed up to

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the convention, we punted it 15 years later before we signed up to

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the court. There were huge concerns about the court. Have laws without

:18:41.:18:47.

a court to enforce them. That is an excellent position. The vast

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majority of international human rights conventions do not have a

:18:50.:18:53.

body enforcing them. I think the Supreme Court should have the last

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word on this. They said prisoner should not have a vote. What is the

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point in a British Supreme Court but does not have the last per --

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the last word? Do we sometimes listen to judgments with which we

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disagree? You have to do that as a citizen and a politician. It seems

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there is civil war going on. There is a way important point about

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sovereignty. It's the European Court has said this needs to happen,

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if a parliament is not prepared to pass anything and the Government is

:19:30.:19:35.

not prepared to do anything, how can anything happen? This is the

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crucial point. We made the European -- the European Court superior to

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Parliament. We said the European Court could judge the actions of

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the British Parliament against the principles embodied in the

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convention. We signed up to the convention. It requires a

:19:59.:20:03.

Parliament to make policy. About the Supreme Court in the US, there

:20:04.:20:09.

is a massive danger when High Court make rulings - policy decisions -

:20:09.:20:13.

without proper debate in a parliamentary democracy, in that

:20:13.:20:19.

kind of forum. That creates a culture. You are still seeing that

:20:19.:20:23.

ridden in American politics. My danger is you get big policy

:20:23.:20:29.

decisions made by judges who are not accountable, rather than

:20:29.:20:36.

politicians. That erodes trust in politics. We will come back to this.

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So, talking of Strasbourg, our very own Jo Coburn is there today. Why,

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you may ask? Well, it's that time when those crazy MEPs leave

:20:49.:20:53.

Brussels for a few days and head to the capital of Alsace at a cost of

:20:53.:21:01.

180 million euros a year. Who better to ask about David Cameron's

:21:01.:21:04.

attempt to trim the EU budget than Members of the European Parliament

:21:04.:21:14.
:21:14.:21:16.

who will, after all, have to agree any deal. Here's Jo. Negotiations

:21:16.:21:20.

are under way. The bargaining in Brussels between the European Union

:21:20.:21:25.

leaders. Even if they do agree a budget deal, and that is a big if,

:21:25.:21:30.

it has to be approved by Members of the European Parliament here in

:21:30.:21:34.

Strasbourg. The signs so far have not been great. With me to discuss

:21:34.:21:44.
:21:44.:21:47.

the prospects of success, are three MEPs. Richard, let's kick-off. What

:21:47.:21:53.

do you think the chances of success on a budget deal? 50/50. Is that

:21:53.:22:00.

better? Has had improved over the last few weeks? It is normal for

:22:00.:22:05.

negotiations at this stage. You will note that different parties,

:22:05.:22:09.

different countries are coming from very widely differing positions.

:22:09.:22:13.

There is a certain amount of grandstanding. We'll know we have

:22:13.:22:17.

to reach compromise at some stage. Will we reach it this time?

:22:17.:22:23.

Probably not. Sooner or later, we well. Are you are as optimistic for

:22:23.:22:31.

a deal over the next few days? not think so. Few countries are

:22:31.:22:36.

extremely far away from a compromise. We have managed to come

:22:36.:22:41.

together on different issues with different countries. Some countries

:22:41.:22:47.

on the size of the Budget and some on social policy. Everyone has a

:22:47.:22:51.

piece of cake. If they are wise enough to bring together a

:22:51.:22:55.

compromise career that would be excellent but I doubt it. Do you

:22:55.:23:05.
:23:05.:23:07.

doubt it? It will be very difficult. I think around 55%. He has said

:23:07.:23:12.

that everyone must compromise. If that is the case, all governments

:23:12.:23:17.

are ready to negotiate and find a compromise so we can come to a

:23:17.:23:20.

result. Do you think David Cameron will compromise in the sense that

:23:20.:23:25.

he will not necessarily stick to the real-terms freeze that he wants

:23:25.:23:32.

- that he will pay more? Some things are clearly defined. The

:23:32.:23:36.

United Kingdom is going to extreme lengths to deal with the budget

:23:36.:23:44.

deficit. People genuinely understand that. He will be

:23:44.:23:46.

explaining to other colleagues of European nations that we are having

:23:46.:23:52.

to lay-off nurses, policemen, give redundancy notices to soldiers and,

:23:52.:23:56.

at a time, when we're going to turn round and ask for more money for

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Europe. That is not acceptable. is that the red line in the sand?

:24:01.:24:06.

It is one area we will be negotiating hard fall. It is a

:24:06.:24:10.

multi-faceted thing and there are many angles to look at. He will not

:24:10.:24:15.

move on that. What is wrong with national governments same, we were

:24:15.:24:19.

not agree with increased spending in the EU when we're cutting

:24:19.:24:26.

budgets at home? It is about freezing spending. The British

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government wants to freeze them at some accounting figure. Free

:24:32.:24:36.

something that you have. Do not freeze something that does not

:24:36.:24:40.

exist any more. If we keep these levels until 2020, that is one

:24:40.:24:44.

thing. The problem will be that the European Union were not be able to

:24:44.:24:50.

achieve the political commitments in the same way it could. The

:24:50.:24:56.

budget is an instrument that is not the purpose. Britain is not going

:24:56.:25:00.

to get what it once was dug it can have a starting level but it will

:25:00.:25:05.

have to agree to something above a real-terms freeze. If I hope we're

:25:05.:25:10.

not getting too hung up on the figures. If you look at Britain and

:25:10.:25:15.

Germany, the difference is not great. It is about how you spend

:25:16.:25:20.

the money when you have got it. Priorities need to change to

:25:20.:25:25.

reflect the times we are in. Germany also wants the overall

:25:25.:25:28.

spending to come down. David Cameron and Angela Merkel wants the

:25:28.:25:37.

money to come down. We do like a freeze? The European Union has

:25:37.:25:42.

competences to fulfil. It has won new country, Croatia. A freeze

:25:43.:25:48.

would mean a decrease, in fact, because of these reasons. This has

:25:48.:25:52.

to be taken into account to come to a fair result. We should meet

:25:52.:25:59.

somewhere in the middle. Everyone has to move. Also the European

:25:59.:26:05.

Parliament needs to compromise. It means everyone has to move. Then we

:26:05.:26:11.

will make it will start to say we're not just cut, become to

:26:11.:26:15.

research, innovation questions, all those questions. That would be the

:26:15.:26:19.

easiest way. The problem for the UK government is the pressure David

:26:19.:26:25.

Cameron is under from his own party. Is the Conservative Party move into

:26:25.:26:30.

a position of better off out? would not think so. That is extreme

:26:30.:26:35.

territory to get yourself into. We have a clear message that we want

:26:35.:26:39.

to be in the European Union but we think spending priorities need to

:26:39.:26:44.

change. They need to take drastic action to restore the health of the

:26:44.:26:49.

euros. The recognise the steps they have to take. They are not going

:26:49.:26:54.

down that road. The world out there is changing around. If Europe wants

:26:54.:27:00.

to fall behind, that is something we wish to avoid. Many in the

:27:00.:27:04.

Conservative Party to support that view. Just recently in a vote in

:27:04.:27:08.

Parliament, many rebels sided with the idea of a cut in the Budget.

:27:08.:27:13.

Many think the relationship with Europe has to change. That is what

:27:13.:27:17.

the Prime Minister is saying. He has talked about a review of

:27:17.:27:22.

competencies and taking a hard line on the Budget. Do you think the UK

:27:22.:27:30.

is heading towards the exit door? The UK would not like to keep the

:27:30.:27:36.

budget - that is the decrees. This is the structure of the Budget. The

:27:36.:27:40.

UK veto will come because that budget is not well-structured and

:27:40.:27:50.
:27:50.:27:52.

the spending is not well directed. Just to say, for the EU expanding,

:27:52.:27:56.

this is 0.827 % of public expenditure. You will not save much

:27:56.:28:00.

money out of that. More than half the exports would go to the single

:28:00.:28:04.

market in Europe. The benefits are much larger than that. I would

:28:04.:28:10.

think twice. The way of spending is extremely important. We need to

:28:10.:28:15.

have the amounts for filling the policies. From the perspective of

:28:15.:28:19.

Germany, do you think the UK is heading out of the European Union -

:28:19.:28:25.

may be slowly - but that is the way they are heading? You always

:28:25.:28:30.

admired the British ability to be practical. I do not believe the

:28:30.:28:33.

minority in the Tory Party would win. We would like to have Britain

:28:33.:28:39.

in four lots of reasons. The place of Britain is in Europe and cities

:28:39.:28:43.

in the interests of Britain to be in Europe. Thank you very much.

:28:43.:28:51.

There was see how negotiations go over the next 36 hours. -- we will

:28:51.:28:55.

see. So, it's a big day for David Cameron but, after two and half

:28:55.:28:58.

years in the top job, how well do we really know the man himself?

:28:58.:29:01.

James O'Shaugnessy worked closely with the Prime Minister, first in

:29:01.:29:04.

Opposition then in then in Government. Before we ask him for

:29:04.:29:07.

his perspective on Cameron the man, here's Giles, who's been taking his

:29:07.:29:10.

own soundings. When you aspire to be, and then become Prime Minister,

:29:10.:29:14.

people ask, and probably have a right to ask who you are as a

:29:14.:29:17.

person. David Cameron hasn't been shy, early on we were invited to

:29:17.:29:19.

see him behind the scenes, but actually such insights are

:29:19.:29:26.

carefully managed. And it's his personality in so far as it shapes

:29:26.:29:29.

how he does his job that's of real interest. Before the election he'd

:29:30.:29:38.

explained his ambitions. I was there that night when David Cameron

:29:38.:29:44.

was asked why he wanted to be Prime Minister. His response was, I think

:29:44.:29:47.

there would be good at it. Critics say, the main point of what he's

:29:47.:29:51.

doing is that he wants to be Prime Minister and he wants the job for

:29:52.:29:55.

his own sake but he is not driven by a sense of mission of vision to

:29:55.:30:02.

change the country and lead it in a particular direction. I think he

:30:02.:30:07.

has that very English temperament about him that distrusts ideology.

:30:07.:30:11.

He thinks ideas have their place. He would not be a politician if he

:30:11.:30:16.

did not. He even distrust the harshness and absolutism of

:30:16.:30:21.

political ideology. That might explain why many of his critics

:30:21.:30:25.

have won the right of the party to fill their politics are forged from

:30:25.:30:31.

heart and belief, it not strategy. He is not a deeply ideological

:30:31.:30:35.

Thatcherite. He does have to deal with a coalition. He did have to

:30:35.:30:41.

deal in the past with a hostile media environment. I do not blame

:30:41.:30:47.

him for that. It got him into Number 10. He took with him a crowd

:30:47.:30:51.

of people who have long been personally and professionally loyal.

:30:51.:30:55.

One of the features of Cameron the man is that he tends to rely on

:30:55.:31:01.

people he has known for a very long time. It is rare for an outsider to

:31:01.:31:06.

be committed properly into the inner circle. Some people will see

:31:06.:31:11.

that as a strength. Critics will say, if you want a Prime Minister

:31:11.:31:15.

who is going to change things and get stuck in, he must sometimes be

:31:15.:31:21.

prepared to fire his friends. David Cameron has never really done that.

:31:21.:31:25.

I think Cameron is a man who does not suffer fools gladly. In my

:31:25.:31:30.

experience, he was fair but firm as a boss. If people are not up to the

:31:30.:31:35.

job, they won it pretty quickly. They say No. 10 reflects the

:31:35.:31:39.

character of the person at the top. That seems very true of this PM

:31:39.:31:43.

compared with other characters at the top of the party. Osborne likes

:31:43.:31:49.

the clean, sharp, clinical operation. Boris like delegating to

:31:49.:31:56.

people who he trusts. David Cameron does like a certain muddy mess - a

:31:56.:32:01.

certain lack of definition - is certain relaxed quality in the

:32:01.:32:05.

atmosphere. That seems to be part of he hears. Anyone's character can

:32:05.:32:11.

be analysed for strength and weakness. Some traits can be either.

:32:11.:32:15.

Nobody is perfect. It is just the stakes are much higher getting it

:32:15.:32:25.
:32:25.:32:27.

Let's come into what is happening at the moment in Brussels. How good

:32:27.:32:33.

is he at negotiating? How good are his negotiating skills? A think the

:32:33.:32:37.

coalition, the fact of the coalition, stands as a pretty good

:32:37.:32:41.

testament to those skills. He got what he wanted to get, which is to

:32:41.:32:48.

become Prime Minister and to form a stable government. I think he gets

:32:48.:32:54.

the kind of outcomes he wants. you foreseen that as an option, did

:32:54.:32:58.

he have a game plan for that, is that what unfolded after the

:32:58.:33:03.

election or did he make it up as he went along? I think there was a bit

:33:03.:33:07.

of both. If he worked at the polls throughout the campaign, it never

:33:07.:33:14.

looked like anybody would have a convincing majority. The Lib Dems

:33:14.:33:18.

were doing things -- well during things like the leadership debates.

:33:18.:33:22.

So clearly he was thinking of a what-if scenario, but you do not

:33:22.:33:29.

know how things will pan out. Having seen the position as it was,

:33:29.:33:34.

within 24 hours, he was making an open, comprehensive offered to the

:33:34.:33:40.

Lib Dems, and it was on the morning of that Friday. By the Tuesday,

:33:40.:33:45.

they were in government. In Europe, coalitions of can take weeks to

:33:45.:33:49.

come together, so that was extraordinary. He is not good on

:33:49.:33:55.

detail, say his critics. Very much not true. He has an incredible mind,

:33:55.:33:59.

and superb judgment, which is why I always thought he would be a good

:33:59.:34:04.

Prime Minister. He really does read all the briefs and is across the

:34:04.:34:08.

details? John Major always said he was proud to be. This idea of him

:34:08.:34:15.

slacking off is not true, he gets off -- get up incredibly early, he

:34:15.:34:20.

is across there are things he needs to be. What he has is a willingness

:34:21.:34:26.

to delegate to his cabinet ministers the broad bones of a

:34:26.:34:32.

programme, and trust them to get on with it. He looks in on them from

:34:32.:34:38.

time to time, where there are issues, he get deeply involved.

:34:38.:34:42.

said to have a bit of a temper in private, have you seen the rough

:34:42.:34:49.

end of that? I have never seen that. At the end, he doesn't really stand

:34:49.:34:54.

for anything, he is a managerial Conservative, when asked why he

:34:54.:34:58.

wanted to be Prime Minister, he didn't say because he wanted to

:34:58.:35:02.

create world peace or alleviate the condition of the people, along

:35:02.:35:06.

Disraeli lines, he said, I think I would be rather good at it. I am

:35:06.:35:10.

not sure he would say that was a complete description of why he

:35:10.:35:14.

wanted to be a Prime Minister, but I would say firstly, he is a

:35:14.:35:17.

classic conservative, not an ideologist, but look at his

:35:17.:35:23.

principles. Look at the stance he has taken on a gay marriage. One of

:35:23.:35:26.

the first things he said when he was running for the leadership of

:35:26.:35:30.

the Conservative Party was he believed in marriage for a man or

:35:30.:35:36.

woman, or a woman and a woman ought to man. I think he is consistent on

:35:36.:35:43.

the things he believes passionately in, and you have to judge him on

:35:43.:35:47.

what the government does, he is overseeing a government which has

:35:47.:35:53.

Ken Clarke in it, Iain Duncan Smith, William Hague, a huge range of

:35:53.:35:58.

talent across the party, that no Prime Minister has managed to unite

:35:59.:36:03.

for a long time. That is in itself an extraordinary achievement. They

:36:03.:36:10.

are doing a lot of things history would judge as being pretty radical.

:36:10.:36:17.

We have been joined by Mr -- viewers in Scotland. Our guest of

:36:17.:36:21.

the day is setting up not just one or two academies, but a whole chain

:36:21.:36:27.

of them, in conjunction with Wellington College. Before we hear

:36:27.:36:32.

about that, and his academies only take place in England, not in

:36:32.:36:36.

Scotland, let's recap on where we are with the government's flagship

:36:36.:36:40.

education policy. According to the Department for Education there are

:36:40.:36:45.

2,456 six academies open in England. The government says academies

:36:45.:36:47.

benefit from greater freedoms that innovate and raise standards,

:36:47.:36:56.

because they are free from local authority control. They can set

:36:56.:36:59.

their own pay and conditions for staff, have freedoms around the

:36:59.:37:02.

curriculum, as well as the ability to change the length of terms and

:37:02.:37:07.

school days. Now successful academies are setting up sister

:37:07.:37:12.

schools, creating so-called "chain academies". So far there are around

:37:12.:37:16.

48 academy chains covering nearly 350 academies. Critics claim

:37:16.:37:18.

academies are the privatisation of education, and that they benefit

:37:18.:37:24.

more affluent neighbourhoods with the extra money they receive. And

:37:24.:37:27.

today the National Audit Office has said a tenfold increase in the

:37:27.:37:29.

number of schools converting to academies has resulted in �1

:37:29.:37:32.

billion of extra costs - which the Department for Education was

:37:32.:37:42.
:37:42.:37:46.

unprepared for. Which I think is a polite way of saying it didn't have

:37:46.:37:50.

the money! James O'Shaughnessy is in the process of setting up a

:37:50.:37:56.

chain academy, and Alasdair Smith is from the Anti-Academies Alliance.

:37:56.:38:02.

I think we know his position! Give me the case for academies. They

:38:02.:38:08.

work, quite simply. The evidence we now seek for academy set up under

:38:08.:38:13.

Labour, so-called sponsored academies, Gwent and they take over

:38:13.:38:17.

failing school and improve it, they are on average perform better than

:38:17.:38:22.

schools that didn't go down that route. And Labour idea that this

:38:22.:38:28.

condition has picked up? Some work, some don't, that is the problem. It

:38:28.:38:34.

is not about an average. Some have been very successful, but some

:38:34.:38:38.

academies, the Basildon academies, these are academies in special

:38:38.:38:42.

measures. There is nothing magic about academies or sponsorship, and

:38:42.:38:47.

we have been sold a pass by both New Labour and the coalition that

:38:47.:38:52.

there is some kind of magic dust, it doesn't exist. You point by

:38:52.:38:56.

dismissing something on average, you cannot have a proper argument

:38:56.:39:01.

about anecdotes. You need to add value it at type of programme in

:39:01.:39:04.

all its forms and see that is more or less effective. It is true that

:39:04.:39:08.

there are academies at haven't worked, no one would disagree but

:39:08.:39:16.

that. Similarly, there are maintained schools that have done

:39:16.:39:17.

brilliantly and some that hadn't worked. But the LSC did a review of

:39:17.:39:21.

the sponsored academies that were set up under Labour and found that

:39:21.:39:24.

not only were they are performing better than schools that hadn't

:39:24.:39:28.

gone down that route, but they also brought benefits for neighbouring

:39:28.:39:35.

schools. So there was a competition effect that raised... A so it is

:39:35.:39:40.

really important not to say, they don't do a good job, but to

:39:40.:39:43.

evaluate the programmes are crossed the range. You say that is what the

:39:43.:39:49.

report says, it cannot identify... All the new Labour academies had

:39:49.:39:54.

with than �30 million of new buildings, generous transitional

:39:54.:39:57.

funding, changes in school leadership. It wasn't the academy

:39:57.:40:01.

status, it was the bricks and mortar, the changing in teaching

:40:01.:40:06.

and learning, in leadership. It is nothing about academy status. The

:40:06.:40:10.

evidence is that the London challenge has been the most sister

:40:10.:40:16.

-- successful form of school improvement, and much cheaper. So

:40:16.:40:20.

I'm happy to acknowledge some academies have been successful, but

:40:20.:40:24.

some of failing, and we can't tolerate that situation. We need to

:40:24.:40:27.

look at the school improvement system that works for every school.

:40:27.:40:32.

But quite a few comprehensives file, and we tolerate that. I don't think

:40:32.:40:37.

we do. We tolerated that for the best part of 20, 30 years. It

:40:37.:40:44.

wasn't until James Callaghan, in 1976, talked about the secret

:40:44.:40:49.

garden speech, when the public have an interest in what is going on in

:40:49.:40:53.

schools. What was going on then was appalling in many instances. No

:40:53.:40:58.

attempt to do things like children the basics. The long march back in

:40:59.:41:02.

favour of standards, that has happened under consecutive

:41:02.:41:06.

governments, find its latest expression in the Academy movement.

:41:06.:41:10.

The reason for that is in many cases, the secondary schools were

:41:10.:41:14.

able to throw off appalling local authorities he did nothing for them,

:41:14.:41:19.

who did worse than nothing, who dragged them down. They took the

:41:19.:41:23.

power of entrepreneurs to do something different. Some local

:41:23.:41:27.

authorities, Tower Hamlets, Camden in London, who have been

:41:27.:41:30.

fantastically successful. Just to say that the local authority model

:41:30.:41:34.

was bad because it didn't work in some places is nonsense, it is

:41:34.:41:39.

costing us a fortune. What would you do in those places? We need to

:41:39.:41:46.

beef up local authorities. You can look at examples like Alberta in

:41:46.:41:49.

Canada, where the local authority works in an effective way. There

:41:49.:41:54.

are lots of models of making them accountable. It is having a

:41:54.:42:01.

democratically accountable middle to here. Who is that? Sir Michael

:42:01.:42:07.

will trot, the chair of Ofsted! some academies are failing, why is

:42:07.:42:10.

that allowed to happen? It is a good question, one of the problems

:42:11.:42:16.

we are facing his there used to be 200 academies, and there are a

:42:16.:42:22.

handful of those below the accepted standard. It used to be the case

:42:22.:42:25.

that the DFE had a capacity to intervene in those and try and sort

:42:25.:42:34.

them out. We are now in a situation that there are 2500, and the

:42:34.:42:42.

question is, who is intervening, if you like? De chair of Ofsted is

:42:43.:42:46.

intending that they should start inspecting, not just all academies

:42:46.:42:50.

but Academy chains, and working out if they are good or not. I

:42:50.:42:53.

absolutely welcome back. I think anybody who believes in the

:42:53.:42:57.

programme needs to be transparent. Is it your view that everybody

:42:57.:43:01.

should go to a local authority comprehensive? I think everybody

:43:01.:43:08.

should go to a good local school. It is not about it been a

:43:08.:43:13.

comprehensive. Do you think there should be other state schools that

:43:13.:43:19.

are not local authority schools? think we need a good local school...

:43:19.:43:24.

That is not what I asked. Do you think they should be the sole

:43:24.:43:29.

providers? I think we need local, democratic accountability. If you

:43:29.:43:33.

look at systems like in Finland, there is a local authority system,

:43:33.:43:37.

but not the same as we are familiar with in here. You need to have a

:43:37.:43:44.

middle Tear, democratic accountability, planning, or cannot

:43:44.:43:50.

Collaboration, these are simple, technical things we need. We can

:43:50.:43:54.

get this without this headlong drive into privatisation. Hang on a

:43:54.:44:01.

minute, privatisation... We are running out of time. Legally, they

:44:01.:44:05.

are called exempt charities, they are charity is regretted by the DFE,

:44:05.:44:12.

taking issue share capital, they cannot even raise debt. Let's leave

:44:12.:44:22.
:44:22.:44:24.

it there, I'm afraid. Interesting original principles of the welfare

:44:24.:44:27.

state, where you have to pay in before you get the benefits, and

:44:27.:44:31.

with a renewed emphasis on individual responsibility. That is

:44:31.:44:36.

what a Conservative MP is arguing in a new pamphlet published today.

:44:36.:44:40.

We'll discuss his ideas in a moment, but first let me take you back to

:44:40.:44:43.

1942, when Sir William Beveridge laid out his plan for an all

:44:43.:44:53.
:44:53.:44:58.

Oxford has had the unusual experience with Sir William

:44:58.:45:02.

Beveridge working at the college producing a social document of

:45:02.:45:08.

revolutionary importance. He has put the immense store of economic

:45:08.:45:13.

learning, human sympathy and Social Administration, accumulated in her

:45:13.:45:17.

long life of service devoted to his fellow men. If adopted, no one in

:45:17.:45:25.

Britain who is willing to work will ever again suffer absolute want.

:45:25.:45:34.

This proposes first a unified social insurance system. By paying

:45:34.:45:41.

a single, weekly contribution, through one Insurance stamp,

:45:41.:45:50.

everyone will be able to get all the benefits that he or his family

:45:50.:45:56.

need. The Beveridge Report shows had to begin overthrowing the five

:45:56.:46:03.

giant evils. Pittsburgh as all too great effort. Much can be done to

:46:03.:46:10.

peace. -- it spurs us all. Men and women in the armed forces do not

:46:10.:46:15.

require more incentive to do their utmost but we must believe a fuller

:46:15.:46:23.

life and better Britain awaits us after the war. Commentary from a

:46:24.:46:27.

time when currently was not entirely neutral in what it said.

:46:27.:46:30.

And I am joined by Chris Skidmore, Conservative MP and author of his

:46:30.:46:34.

own report, A New Beveridge, which marks the 70th anniversary of the

:46:34.:46:36.

original, Liberal Democrat MP and chairman of his party's Beveridge

:46:36.:46:44.

Group, John Pugh, and the Labour MP, Lisa Nandy. Welcome to all. Lay out

:46:44.:46:52.

your soul. What is Beveridge mark two? If it set about creating a

:46:52.:46:58.

national minimum and the safety net. People had to contribute. The

:46:58.:47:01.

understood they were putting into the state. It was a contract

:47:01.:47:05.

between the individual and the state. The safety net has become

:47:05.:47:11.

too high. We have become 53 presentable people becoming net

:47:11.:47:16.

recipients of state benefits. 70 years on, we have a huge

:47:16.:47:21.

demographic challenge. The average life expectancy was 59. It is

:47:22.:47:27.

rising dramatically. The need to go back to the original principles in

:47:27.:47:31.

understanding that, if we want a welfare state sustainable for the

:47:31.:47:35.

21st century, we cannot go along the original model of the pre-war

:47:35.:47:40.

report. We need to adapt it. problems which are outlined, such

:47:40.:47:44.

as affordability and people taking advantage of the welfare state and

:47:44.:47:47.

not exercising personal responsibilities. They were

:47:47.:47:51.

highlighted in the day of Beveridge and wear a dress them. Chris is not

:47:51.:47:58.

coming up with any solutions to the problems. -- were addressed then.

:47:58.:48:04.

Chris is proposing something much more radical. Making them repay

:48:04.:48:14.
:48:14.:48:14.

their JSA. That is the jobseekers allowance. Reducing universal

:48:14.:48:18.

benefits. Beveridge understood very clearly that some element of

:48:18.:48:24.

universal benefit was essential. My worry is, if we go down that route,

:48:24.:48:28.

we Wallander with a more divided attitude on welfare there we have

:48:28.:48:38.
:48:38.:48:42.

currently got. -- we will go down a more divided route on welfare.

:48:42.:48:47.

we lost sight of the very important part of Beveridge - the

:48:47.:48:51.

contributory principle? Weather Report is helpful is he does

:48:51.:48:57.

resurrect the idea of national insurance and social security. --

:48:57.:49:02.

where the report is helpful. Ashlyn shares today is really another tax,

:49:02.:49:11.

isn't it? -- national insurance. What was important is full

:49:11.:49:14.

employment. Mine are absolutely desperate for work. The vast

:49:14.:49:19.

majority of the 2.5 million people unemployed in this country want to

:49:19.:49:23.

work. It seems odd to me that what you have proposed in this report is

:49:23.:49:27.

based on the idea that people do not want to work. Take the proposal

:49:27.:49:32.

you made about young people. You say a young person who has not

:49:32.:49:35.

contributed much to the system should take unemployment benefits

:49:35.:49:40.

as a loan. How does that help? It that young person does not want to

:49:40.:49:44.

work, how does it encourage them into work when they know they would

:49:44.:49:49.

be paying more back into the system inconsequence? For London 50,000

:49:49.:49:55.

young people are claiming benefits. That is �25 million a week. What we

:49:55.:49:58.

have lost and the welfare state is incentivising individuals to do the

:49:59.:50:02.

right thing. How does that incentivise the young person who

:50:02.:50:07.

does not want to work? The vast majority do and they are not the

:50:07.:50:12.

jobs. Why would paying more, when they're getting work, incentivise

:50:12.:50:17.

them to get work? misunderstanding that everybody

:50:17.:50:21.

belongs to a society where they put-in. If you have not paid the

:50:21.:50:26.

tax, you have to owed the money to the State. That should apply to

:50:26.:50:30.

student fees as well. With the situation of women - women who

:50:30.:50:34.

choose to take time out of work in order to have children and bring up

:50:34.:50:37.

those children - presumably would not be arguing they should be

:50:37.:50:43.

penalised because they put less into the system than men? Of course

:50:43.:50:46.

not. The coalition government has looked at flexible paternity leave

:50:46.:50:51.

and I agree with that. The broad point is, if we want to have a

:50:51.:50:55.

welfare state with good schools and good hospitals, there is only a

:50:55.:50:59.

certain limited amount of money. We have to ensure that where

:50:59.:51:02.

millionaires are claiming winter fuel allowance, Beveridge would

:51:02.:51:08.

have turned in his grave. What would beverage have thought of the

:51:08.:51:14.

criticism that what was a rigid sign to be a hand up in the bad

:51:14.:51:19.

times -- was originally designed to be a hand up in the bad times has

:51:19.:51:24.

become a lifestyle? Beveridge was acutely aware of the Victorian

:51:24.:51:27.

distinction between the undeserving and the deserving poor. There are

:51:27.:51:33.

such people. Some are poor despite their best means. Any welfare

:51:33.:51:41.

system has had difficult half of -- task of differentiating these two

:51:41.:51:48.

categories was dubbed this view of human nature, he described the

:51:48.:51:54.

British working public as some of the biggest idlers on the planet.

:51:54.:52:02.

Deduce say that? It said we are among the worst idlers. -- did you

:52:02.:52:06.

say that? We have a huge problem with productivity in the Western

:52:06.:52:10.

world. In the 21st century, the Rules of the game have changed and

:52:10.:52:15.

we must adapt. Where do you come in? Something interesting happened

:52:15.:52:20.

in the 1960s. We took about deserving and undeserving. Benefits

:52:20.:52:27.

were based on what is deserved to what you need. The difficulty that

:52:27.:52:31.

people on the left have, which has been exposed for what Chris has

:52:31.:52:35.

written today, when we hear the Labour Party talking about the can

:52:35.:52:40.

to be due principle, are we happy about getting themselves into a

:52:40.:52:43.

position where they can say to themselves that people who have not

:52:43.:52:47.

been earning - immigrant families - large immigrant families, you will

:52:47.:52:50.

get a larger rate of benefit and someone who has been hit a long

:52:51.:52:55.

time? When Beveridge came up with his support for a mass immigration

:52:55.:53:01.

was not an issue. There was a sense of, if you had been serving in the

:53:01.:53:05.

Army, working in factories and so on, we have had people without that

:53:05.:53:09.

record. I prepared to say to those people, you will have a lower

:53:09.:53:15.

standard of living where you will be in poverty because of having a

:53:15.:53:19.

differentiated benefit system. Labour Party must have a welfare

:53:19.:53:24.

reform policy by the next election. Absolutely. There are two things

:53:24.:53:27.

that are missing from this discussion. The best way to cut the

:53:27.:53:31.

welfare bill is to get people into work and stimulate the economy into

:53:31.:53:35.

creating jobs. The good way to do that, and take people out of the

:53:35.:53:41.

welfare system, is to make work pay. A huge number of the people that

:53:41.:53:45.

are being talked about art in it, receiving tax credits, will be

:53:45.:53:48.

receiving the universal credit because work, quite simply, does

:53:48.:53:52.

not pay. That has been a problem for a government minister as long

:53:52.:53:56.

as I had been covering politics. Is there traction him what you have

:53:56.:54:01.

been saying in the Conservative Party? People realise we are in

:54:01.:54:05.

desperate economic times are we must realise this is unsustainable

:54:05.:54:11.

and must move with the times. -- and we must realise. This is for

:54:11.:54:19.

the future. We must look at the future. It is the start of a great

:54:19.:54:23.

debate. Get out the turkey, get in front of the telly. No, we're not a

:54:23.:54:26.

month early for Christmas, today our American cousins are

:54:26.:54:35.

celebrating Thanksgiving. It is a great holiday. One thing Barack

:54:35.:54:38.

Obama will be feeling especially thankful for is his campaign's top

:54:38.:54:41.

notch private polling operation. It is widely credited with giving him

:54:41.:54:43.

a mathematical edge over Mitt Romney in last month's presidential

:54:43.:54:48.

And it's left Republican pollsters scratching their heads over how

:54:48.:54:54.

they managed to get their numbers so wrong. Adam's been meeting one

:54:54.:55:04.
:55:04.:55:06.

of them, Fox News favourite Frank Luntz. He has the immediate

:55:06.:55:11.

reaction. We have some of the most important people in America seated

:55:11.:55:19.

right here. For a glance has made his name folks sing -- filming

:55:19.:55:23.

televised focus groups. He said Mitt Romney would triumph in the

:55:23.:55:30.

popular vote. Barack Obama has empathy and Mitt Romney does not.

:55:30.:55:34.

He came across as a no-nonsense businessman that he did not

:55:34.:55:38.

understand the challenges. Barack Obama may not have been able to fix

:55:38.:55:44.

the problems but he proved he understood them. Some boffins did

:55:44.:55:47.

get the result right. The Republican polling establish what

:55:48.:55:56.

was also universally wrong. Why? establishment. You have to work out

:55:56.:56:01.

who will vote. Those that are supported Barack Obama turned out a

:56:01.:56:04.

much higher numbers than anyone expected. It is not just judging

:56:04.:56:13.

what people think, it is judging the intensity - the passion - the

:56:13.:56:17.

commitment of that thought. There are lessons for the pollsters but

:56:17.:56:23.

also for the politicians. Number one, whoever defines first wins the

:56:23.:56:29.

election. Number two, if you don't have a positive, proactive

:56:29.:56:35.

visionary approach, they will not vote for you. There is no not

:56:35.:56:38.

candidate X. They have to vote for someone and not just against

:56:38.:56:42.

someone. Their third is knowing who will they do making sure it will

:56:42.:56:52.
:56:52.:56:56.

supporters actually participate. -- the third is knowing who they will

:56:56.:57:03.

vote for. It is about understanding good difficult challenges of hard-

:57:03.:57:08.

working people. The challenge for Labour is not just to be critical.

:57:08.:57:13.

Critics don't just get votes, they need a positive alternative. The

:57:13.:57:20.

plan for the Lib Dems is to be relevant. You cannot win people

:57:20.:57:26.

over amnesty to something that is distinctive. You wrote the last

:57:27.:57:31.

Conservative manifesto. I bet the next one is pretty different.

:57:31.:57:36.

might not have so much in it. not think you will have a big

:57:36.:57:40.

society and I do not think you will be saying vote Ploo, go green. What

:57:40.:57:45.

do you think the thrust of it should be? We heard in the

:57:45.:57:49.

conference speech this year, deficit, welfare schools. Those of

:57:49.:57:54.

the big issues for him. He thinks layback are on the wrong side of

:57:54.:57:58.

all of those issues. That is what and see the manifesto been built

:57:58.:58:03.

around. They have a mountain to climb. Mr Obama could lose lots of

:58:03.:58:07.

votes and still win that your party has to gain a lot of votes. I do

:58:07.:58:15.

not think that has been turned by a sitting Prime Minister since 1955.

:58:15.:58:20.

Possibly. -- has been done. Two things give me confidence. The

:58:20.:58:27.

Prime Minister identifying strivers. It took a while. And Disraeli. And

:58:27.:58:30.

Blair indeed. What the Obama victory shows, is the campaign he

:58:30.:58:35.

would like to fight, Britain is on the bike track, do not turn back,

:58:35.:58:39.

can That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The One O'clock News is

:58:39.:58:44.

starting over on BBC One now. And I will be back here tonight for This

:58:44.:58:46.

Week with Anne Atkins talking women bishops, Richard Bacon on gossip

:58:46.:58:50.

and Ann Leslie looking back over the news of the week. So join me,

:58:50.:58:53.

Michael Portillo and Alan Johnson at 11:35am on BBC1. And I'll be

:58:53.:58:57.

Andrew Neil presents the latest political news and debate, including the latest on the EU budget from Brussels and Strasbourg. Plus Conservative MP Dominic Raab on the government's attempt to comply with the EU on prisoner voting rights. Also on the programme, the Prime Minister's former chief of staff on 'David Cameron the man'.


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