21/01/2013 Daily Politics


21/01/2013

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 21/01/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Westminster is as pretty as a picture under a blanket of snow

:00:10.:00:15.

today, but it takes more than a couple of inches of the white stuff

:00:15.:00:25.
:00:25.:00:52.

to stop the Daily Politics from It is certainly warmer inside!

:00:52.:01:00.

Coming up: From plebgate to plodgate, now Downing Street's most

:01:00.:01:04.

senior civil servant gets it in the neck. Was the former Chief Whip

:01:04.:01:07.

Andrew Mitchell the victim of rough justice?

:01:07.:01:10.

The Prime Minister warned that North African militants represent

:01:10.:01:16.

the next essential threat which could take years to of off -- and

:01:16.:01:20.

existential threat. The same big speech on Europe

:01:20.:01:24.

waiting to be delivered by the Prime Minister. After the long

:01:24.:01:30.

build-up, will anyone be satisfied. Let It Snow, Let It Snow, Let It

:01:30.:01:35.

Snow. It looks pretty, but could the transport chaos be putting the

:01:35.:01:40.

brakes on the UK economy? All that in the next hour, and with

:01:40.:01:44.

us for the first half is Ben Summerskill, chief executive of the

:01:44.:01:50.

gay rights organisation Stonewall. Welcome. Let's start with Obama's

:01:50.:01:53.

public an operation for his second term as president, which will take

:01:53.:01:58.

place later. Hundreds of thousands are expected for the event, which

:01:58.:02:04.

will feature music from pop stars, Parade, black-tie balls and tight

:02:04.:02:07.

security. He is expected to follow the recent edition of walking

:02:08.:02:16.

through the crowds fired least some of the way back. -- for at least.

:02:16.:02:19.

He was officially inaugurated in a small White House ceremony on

:02:20.:02:26.

Sunday, as the US constitution requires the President be sworn in

:02:26.:02:30.

by the 20th January. He bowed to preserve, protect and defend the

:02:30.:02:35.

constitution of the United States. What are your hopes for his second

:02:35.:02:45.
:02:45.:02:48.

term? I hope one of the things he will do it is embed Obama care. If

:02:48.:02:55.

you have a family in America, and I spent some time there, if you judge

:02:55.:02:58.

politicians on what you might call the thatcher Attlee test of whether

:02:58.:03:03.

they left something behind, making sure that 100 million people have

:03:03.:03:08.

health care who did not otherwise is a pretty huge achievement. I

:03:08.:03:12.

hope he will keep America and, consequently, the rest of us, out

:03:13.:03:18.

of war with Iran. And if you wanted some more stuff about hope and

:03:18.:03:24.

change, then possibly doing something at last about gun control,

:03:24.:03:27.

which is something where there is a lot of support from ordinary

:03:27.:03:32.

Americans. Let's look at gun- control. Do you think he will take

:03:32.:03:37.

on the gun lobby which is so powerful in America? My instinct,

:03:37.:03:41.

having seen the way he is setting out his stall, is that is what he

:03:41.:03:49.

might be thinking about. Will he succeed? I think he will probably

:03:49.:03:53.

get further than he might otherwise have -- otherwise have done. I was

:03:53.:03:57.

in New Hampshire at the time of the Connecticut shooting three or four

:03:58.:04:02.

weeks ago. People at home in America are starting to feel deeply

:04:02.:04:05.

uncomfortable and they are reflecting, which is perfectly

:04:05.:04:12.

reasonable, but the second announcement -- the Second

:04:12.:04:15.

Amendment was designed to give people the right to have a single

:04:15.:04:19.

ball rifle to protect them in the outback. It was not designed to

:04:19.:04:25.

give unstable teenagers the right to carry an AK-47. Is it a battle

:04:25.:04:29.

that you think he can make real progress on? You say attitudes may

:04:29.:04:34.

have changed in the living rooms across America, but they always do

:04:34.:04:40.

after an atrocity like this. Will it be enough to change any laws?

:04:40.:04:44.

think if he seeks to do it incrementally, so at the very least

:04:44.:04:51.

people start having to register in order to hold weapons like AK-47s,

:04:51.:04:55.

he will make significant progress. I don't think he will abolish the

:04:55.:04:57.

individual holding of weaponry altogether.

:04:58.:05:02.

A now it is time for away daily quiz. We are staying with re-

:05:02.:05:09.

inauguration. Which artist is performing? Is it Meatloaf, Beyonce,

:05:09.:05:14.

Psy of Gangnam Style fame or Lady GaGa? At the end of the show we

:05:14.:05:18.

will give you the correct answer. The Public Administration Committee

:05:18.:05:21.

has said the most senior civil servant in Jennings Street, Sir

:05:21.:05:26.

Jerry Hayward, failed to resolve key questions about the plebgate

:05:26.:05:31.

affair -- in Downing Street. Mr Mitchell allegedly called officers

:05:31.:05:36.

plebs in an altercation in December. He admits swearing but always says

:05:36.:05:42.

he did not use the words attributed to him. Doubts have subsequently

:05:42.:05:46.

been asked about -- past about the claims against him, including

:05:47.:05:51.

claims to his deputy allegedly written by a policeman posing as a

:05:51.:05:55.

member of the public. When the Prime Minister asked Jeremy Heywood

:05:55.:05:59.

to investigate the e-mails, he concluded they did not prove

:05:59.:06:04.

conclusive for reliable evidence against Mr Mitchell. At the Public

:06:04.:06:07.

Administration Committee, a cross- party group of MPs, say that Sir

:06:07.:06:11.

Jeremy should have pursued the matter further, saying he was

:06:11.:06:16.

surprised -- they were surprised that he did not seek to verify the

:06:16.:06:19.

authenticity of a document purported to be the police. --

:06:19.:06:24.

police log. They also think he should have advised the PM to refer

:06:24.:06:32.

the police account to the authorities. The report from the

:06:32.:06:35.

Public Administration Committee comes 11 days after MPs heard

:06:35.:06:38.

evidence from Sir Jeremy on the Mitchell affair. What I am

:06:38.:06:44.

wondering here is what actually happened? He did not occur to

:06:44.:06:47.

anyone that it would be possible they could be a massive fabrication

:06:47.:06:52.

at the time. -- it did not occur to anyone. Nobody thought it could

:06:52.:06:58.

happen. Is that part of what underpins the thinking? No, I think

:06:58.:07:01.

we accepted there were unanswered questions, including the

:07:01.:07:08.

possibility of a gigantic conspiracy, or small conspiracy. We

:07:08.:07:12.

decided, on balance, to let matters rest as they were, to stick by

:07:12.:07:17.

Andrew Mitchell, keep him in post and move on. With first is the

:07:17.:07:20.

chairman of the Public Administration Committee, Bernard

:07:20.:07:25.

Jenkin. What was the biggest mistake, Cameron's decision to ask

:07:25.:07:31.

Sir Jeremy to investigate all the investigation itself? We were keen

:07:31.:07:35.

to learn from this experience, asking the question are there

:07:35.:07:39.

lessons to learn from how this investigation is conducted, should

:07:39.:07:44.

it be done better and differently in the future? The committee I

:07:45.:07:49.

chair, in the previous parliament it recommended that the Prime

:07:49.:07:52.

Minister's adviser on ministerial interests should conduct these

:07:52.:07:56.

matters. The Civil Service says it is not for the Cabinet Secretary to

:07:56.:08:02.

enforce the code. Last summer we recommended he should be able to

:08:02.:08:06.

instigate his own investigations, the adviser, and the obvious truth

:08:06.:08:10.

is the Cabinet Secretary is not the right person to conduct this sort

:08:10.:08:15.

of inquiry, he is under enormous pressure of time. He does not

:08:15.:08:20.

necessarily have the skills. Inevitably, people will feel he is

:08:20.:08:25.

conflicted. Therefore automatically these inquiry should be run by the

:08:25.:08:29.

adviser and not the Cabinet Secretary. He was the wrong man for

:08:29.:08:33.

the job, which you have said, but that was up to David Cameron who

:08:33.:08:38.

appointed him? He obviously felt he was the right man for the job?

:08:38.:08:41.

There is a habit in Downing Street that somehow with something get

:08:41.:08:45.

referred to the adviser, then it is really ramping up and the minister

:08:45.:08:50.

has to be suspended. I understand all that. In the heat of the moment

:08:50.:08:54.

it is very easy to say things should have been done differently

:08:54.:08:58.

in retrospect, but this investigation failed to uncover the

:08:58.:09:02.

truth. There must be a better way of handling these investigations.

:09:03.:09:07.

You think Sir Alex Allan would have uncovered the truth? I don't know,

:09:07.:09:11.

but he is appointed for the purpose of conducting these investigations

:09:11.:09:16.

and it is far more likely he would give it his full-time, independent

:09:16.:09:21.

judgment likely he would get and that he would have commanded the

:09:21.:09:25.

public confidence necessary for such an investigation. Sir Jeremy

:09:25.:09:30.

Hay, the most senior civil servant in the country, does not inspire

:09:30.:09:34.

that confidence? His remit covers so many other things. Let's look at

:09:34.:09:40.

the weekend he has had. As well as dealing with the response to this

:09:40.:09:45.

report he has been dealing with the Algerian hostage crisis. The

:09:45.:09:50.

hangover of the non-EU speech which has to be handled later. All these

:09:50.:09:53.

things and many others are crowding on his time and putting him under

:09:53.:09:58.

enormous pressure. How is he meant to conduct a dispassionate

:09:58.:10:02.

investigation into the Andrew Mitchell fire at the same time? It

:10:02.:10:07.

is asking too much. Why has this Government repeatedly failed to act

:10:07.:10:11.

on your recommendation, and the previous government, too, to let

:10:11.:10:16.

Sir Alex Allan Duke -- do his job? We are still waiting for a

:10:16.:10:19.

government response to a recommendation we made 10 months

:10:19.:10:24.

ago, usually the deadline is two months. Prime ministers

:10:24.:10:27.

understandably do not want to lose control of things that have a

:10:27.:10:33.

bearing on how the Government is perceived. But the lesson of this

:10:33.:10:37.

is how much better it would have been for the Prime Minister and

:10:37.:10:41.

Cabinet Secretary if they handed his old that as a matter of course,

:10:41.:10:46.

that the adviser handled the investigation. Do you think it was

:10:46.:10:50.

not a good enough investigation by Sir Jeremy Heywood? It looks

:10:50.:10:55.

incomplete, but two things strike me about the issue. One is that I

:10:55.:10:58.

don't think plebgate played as badly in the country as people

:10:58.:11:04.

thought it did, because it was people you would expect trying to

:11:04.:11:07.

exploit it. And if people have prejudices about what MPs think

:11:07.:11:11.

about the voters they will have them anyway. I don't think that was

:11:12.:11:16.

assisted by the Christchurch MP referring to wait is in the House

:11:16.:11:22.

of Commons last week as servants. - - referring to waiters. I suspect

:11:22.:11:27.

that Bernard Jenkin will agree, and I have only picked this up socially

:11:27.:11:31.

from Conservative MPs, another thing really interesting is while

:11:31.:11:35.

there might be MPs who was Liberal Democrat and say they think the

:11:35.:11:39.

police might have made things up or framed people, there are

:11:39.:11:45.

Conservative MPs who are genuinely aghast at the very possibility that

:11:45.:11:50.

a police officer might have invented a claim about a government

:11:50.:11:55.

minister or, indeed, might have fabricated a complaint. Are you

:11:55.:12:00.

aghast? We have been very careful not to go that lot -- not to go

:12:00.:12:05.

there. It is not in our remit. bit like Sir Jeremy Heywood!

:12:05.:12:09.

might say that. The Home Affairs Select Committee is looking at this

:12:09.:12:15.

matter. But there is a criminal investigation in progress. And I

:12:15.:12:19.

think commenting too much on that might endanger a future trial.

:12:19.:12:24.

Absolutely. But I think it, subject to all the qualifications, it being

:12:24.:12:28.

a matter in progress, if this were found to be the case, I think the

:12:28.:12:33.

tectonic plates will shift slightly between the police and many

:12:33.:12:36.

Conservative backbenchers, who would have been instinctively quite

:12:36.:12:41.

supportive of them hitherto. remain instinctively supportive of

:12:41.:12:45.

the police. Their rotten apples in every barrel. Dealing with the

:12:45.:12:49.

diplomatic Protection Group, we are acutely aware that these people

:12:49.:12:53.

would throw themselves in front of a bullet for us, for you, for

:12:53.:12:59.

whoever happens to be standing there. Not for me. They would. I

:12:59.:13:03.

think talking to the police around the Palace who look after us, I

:13:03.:13:07.

have not discussed this with any of them, but I think a lot of them are

:13:07.:13:11.

aghast at what might or might not have happened. Thank you, Bernard.

:13:11.:13:16.

It has been more than four decades since the government of the day

:13:16.:13:20.

decriminalised homosexual acts in private between two men, and the

:13:20.:13:23.

gay rights movement has come up -- come a long way, with several

:13:23.:13:28.

ceremonies parts of everyday life. But it is not so long ago that

:13:28.:13:31.

newspapers thrived an outing gay MPs, and those kinds of stories

:13:31.:13:36.

about public figures still make the headlines. Has the taboo been

:13:36.:13:40.

lifted on being gay in public life? A public display of private life,

:13:40.:13:45.

the annual Gay pride march is a time where gay or lesbian people

:13:45.:13:50.

celebrate their sexuality. But what if you live a public life? How

:13:50.:13:55.

accepting has society come's become when it comes to politicians?

:13:55.:13:59.

much more acceptable than five years ago. David Cameron's

:13:59.:14:03.

government has a lot of work and it is a good atmosphere to be a gay

:14:04.:14:08.

politician. And before that Tony Blair's government and attitude

:14:08.:14:12.

towards gay ministers. It is still not easy, I think they still face

:14:12.:14:17.

more difficulties than heterosexual politicians, because their

:14:17.:14:21.

sexuality is deemed by some not to be the so-called norm. They're just

:14:21.:14:26.

over 20 are openly gay MPs. The first openly lesbian MP says that

:14:26.:14:28.

moves towards make a rights legislation over the past decade

:14:28.:14:34.

has been the result of changes in society. The last Labour government

:14:34.:14:38.

legislated for equal rights in so many areas for LGBT people. It has

:14:38.:14:42.

reflected a change which was already going on in people's

:14:42.:14:46.

attitudes and it has reinforced those attitudes. The gay rights

:14:46.:14:52.

activist teak -- activist Peter Tatchell complained of a senior

:14:52.:14:55.

camp bed mattress near campaign against him when he stood in an

:14:55.:15:01.

election in 1983. Their accusations of homophobia after the term a

:15:01.:15:05.

straight choice was used. The world may have moved on since then, but a

:15:05.:15:09.

study by the gay rights group Stonewall last year said that three

:15:09.:15:12.

in five people think there is public prejudice against gay,

:15:12.:15:16.

lesbian and bisexual people in Britain today. Just under two-

:15:16.:15:20.

thirds of those aged 18 to 29 SEP- there was homophobic bullying in

:15:20.:15:23.

their school and more than three- quarters of people felt that the

:15:23.:15:29.

media relied heavily on cliched stereotypes of gay, lesbian and

:15:29.:15:33.

bisexual people. In 2010, former cabinet minister David Laws was

:15:33.:15:37.

forced to reveal his sexuality during a row about his expenses

:15:37.:15:42.

leading to his resignation. But the author of a book about gay

:15:42.:15:46.

politicians and the press said that the media is changing. People like

:15:46.:15:50.

David Laws and Alan Duncan, while their sexuality is the subject of

:15:50.:15:54.

press coverage, it is more the issues behind it which are bigger,

:15:54.:15:59.

so expenses or being the first openly gay Tory MP. Those are

:15:59.:16:04.

bigger issues. Their sexuality is still an issue. Does geography

:16:04.:16:08.

affect perceptions? More than 20 years since she was first elected,

:16:08.:16:14.

Angela Eagle says not. When I came out in 1998 I think that I was

:16:14.:16:19.

probably the first woman, and I was also one of the first that was not

:16:19.:16:23.

a London member. It did not make any difference, you know? My

:16:23.:16:28.

constituents, thank goodness, judge me for who I was and the job I was

:16:28.:16:32.

doing rather than my sexual orientation. So attitudes are

:16:32.:16:41.

changing, but is that change Ben Summerskill of Stonewall is

:16:41.:16:45.

here, and we are joined by Ian Stewart. You would agree it is

:16:45.:16:50.

easier, is it not to be gay in public life these days? Oh, yes, if

:16:50.:16:54.

you look at when I first became interested and active in politics

:16:54.:16:58.

in the late 1980s, it was unquestionable for me to think

:16:58.:17:03.

about being open about who I was at that time, so we have made enormous

:17:03.:17:07.

progress in the last couple of decades. And as we saw in the

:17:07.:17:11.

interview, even in the last five years, there has been a step change.

:17:11.:17:15.

Why do you think that has been, particularly in the last five

:17:15.:17:19.

years? What has driven that step change? Well, I think there has

:17:20.:17:23.

been a sea-change in society, too. It is not just about

:17:23.:17:26.

representatives in public life, you think it has gone deeper than that?

:17:26.:17:31.

I think so, and the more people see people in all walks of life being

:17:31.:17:37.

open about their sexuality, and it not being an issue, you know, we

:17:37.:17:41.

are seeing more sports stars coming out, and they are not regarded for

:17:41.:17:48.

their sexuality, and there are still problems, areas where there

:17:48.:17:51.

is not enough progress, but the more we see role-models in all

:17:51.:17:58.

walks of life, the more, I think, society will change. Do think the

:17:58.:18:02.

public has a right to know their representatives' sexuality, or is

:18:02.:18:06.

it none of their business? someone wants to keep their private

:18:06.:18:09.

life entirely private, I think that is their matter. If they were

:18:09.:18:14.

starting to talk about family values, while keeping their

:18:14.:18:18.

sexuality secret, I think that is then an issue. But ultimately, I

:18:18.:18:22.

think it is up to each individual to decide for themselves. Do you

:18:22.:18:26.

agree with that, or do you think that public officials have a right

:18:26.:18:31.

to be open about their sexuality? think people have a right to be

:18:31.:18:35.

open about their sexuality. They also have a right not to be, and I

:18:35.:18:41.

think the point about what people say in public and a dissonance with

:18:41.:18:44.

what they might be doing in private, so people talk about family values

:18:44.:18:49.

but keep a mistress, that is a matter of public interest. But the

:18:49.:18:56.

important thing, too, is that across the piece in representation,

:18:56.:19:00.

the quality of politics is improved just occasionally when someone is

:19:00.:19:05.

able to stand up in relation to a particular piece of legislation and

:19:05.:19:10.

say, as someone gay, as someone black, as a woman, this is my lived

:19:10.:19:14.

experience of these issues. It improves the quality of politics,

:19:14.:19:18.

and that is why it is important. mean, traditionally, one might have

:19:18.:19:23.

been able to argue that Labour was a more natural home for gay voters.

:19:23.:19:28.

The thing that has changed now? what I hope is that gay issues are

:19:28.:19:33.

not party political. -- do you think. The Conservative Party,

:19:33.:19:37.

David Cameron has apologised for Section 28, and I think he was

:19:37.:19:42.

right to, not a proud period of my party's history. But what I want

:19:42.:19:46.

the debate to be now is how we tackle the remaining homophobia in

:19:46.:19:50.

schools and elsewhere, and that should not be, whether left-wing or

:19:50.:19:53.

right-wing, we should be looking at the evidence and coming up with

:19:53.:19:59.

sensible ideas. Actually, it is not pointing out that the Conservatives

:19:59.:20:02.

have more openly game of parliamentarians now that all the

:20:02.:20:07.

other parties but together. -- openly gay parliamentarians. There

:20:07.:20:13.

is no openly gay Liberal Democrat peer, only two MPs. So you would

:20:13.:20:17.

encourage people to come out. Absolutely, and on the whole,

:20:17.:20:21.

politicians who have done that say they feel more comfortable, but it

:20:21.:20:25.

is a sign of how the Conservative Party is changing that they are

:20:25.:20:28.

selecting these MPs right across Britain, not just in metropolitan

:20:28.:20:32.

areas. Let's talk about metropolitan areas, because Ian

:20:32.:20:36.

Stuart said that you felt society had changed, it was not just a

:20:36.:20:40.

public face against homophobia. What about attitudes outside of

:20:40.:20:45.

London? His there a geographical divide? I think it can be

:20:45.:20:50.

overestimated. One of the moments of the month of me, if I am

:20:50.:20:56.

permitted such a thing and this programme, was the Any Questions

:20:56.:21:01.

audience on Friday in Barnstaple being asked whether they supported

:21:01.:21:06.

equal marriage, and four out of five of them responded Yes. You

:21:06.:21:11.

know, that is in the heart are the middle Britain, and we are seeing

:21:11.:21:15.

MPs has selected by the Conservative Party, winnable seats,

:21:15.:21:19.

not just in Brighton, Bournemouth or the inner-city areas, but in

:21:19.:21:24.

Milton Keynes, in Pudsey. Glasgow? Yes, well last year the

:21:24.:21:27.

election of Ruth Davidson as election of the Scottish

:21:27.:21:30.

Conservatives, the first openly lesbian lead of any political party

:21:30.:21:34.

in the country, and I know from growing up in central Scotland in

:21:34.:21:39.

the 1980s, you know, that is a phenomenal change that has taken

:21:39.:21:43.

place in a relatively short period of time. What about in schools? You

:21:43.:21:46.

mentioned homophobia that might exist in the school playground. How

:21:46.:21:52.

big a problem is that? We said that Stonewall carried out last year

:21:52.:21:58.

found that 55% of secondary school pupils who identify as lesbian or

:21:58.:22:03.

gay are routinely bullied at school, and research into the experience of

:22:03.:22:08.

Teachers confirms that incidents of bullying, so it is still quite a

:22:08.:22:14.

serious issue. So, again, not wanting to be -- to labour the

:22:14.:22:19.

point on geography, is this across the country? Oh, yes, interestingly,

:22:19.:22:23.

that research is always sliced by region, and we did not see huge

:22:23.:22:29.

discrepancies between London and some parts of the country.

:22:29.:22:33.

Similarly, there are also schools, faith schools in rural areas, that

:22:33.:22:38.

are taking huge steps to tackle homophobic bullying at school, and

:22:38.:22:41.

fashionable comprehensives in metropolitan areas that are not.

:22:41.:22:46.

Thank you very much. How much do you know about the

:22:46.:22:49.

texts and internet messages of your children? You feel you have a right

:22:50.:22:54.

to check what they are sending and receiving on their mobiles or

:22:54.:22:57.

through social networking? According to David Cameron's new

:22:57.:23:01.

adviser on childhood, Claire Perry, parents should insist on seeing

:23:01.:23:04.

their kids' computer and phone exchanges. And she believes society

:23:04.:23:08.

has been complicit in allowing youngsters in appropriate contact

:23:08.:23:12.

with strangers. Well, the government is preparing to respond

:23:12.:23:16.

to a report, and she joins us from College Green. Thank you for

:23:16.:23:22.

standing out in the snow, I hope you're not freezing! No, all right.

:23:22.:23:26.

I have not been preparing a report, since I was appointed in his role,

:23:26.:23:30.

I have been responding to a lot of work that the government has been

:23:30.:23:33.

doing around the report that Reg Bailey prepared, and we will hear

:23:33.:23:37.

more about that next week. One of the things that was quite clear in

:23:37.:23:41.

all of the discussions we have been having on this issue for the last,

:23:41.:23:45.

I suppose, two years, really, is that parents have this feeling of

:23:45.:23:49.

powerlessness in their kids' lives. When we were growing up, if someone

:23:49.:23:52.

was phoning our houses or sending letters to the home, parents would

:23:52.:23:56.

feel they had a responsibility to intervene, that somehow we have

:23:56.:24:00.

ceded that responsibility and feel very nervous about getting involved

:24:00.:24:04.

in their online lives. I have got three children, this is not an easy

:24:04.:24:07.

thing to do, but I think it is right that parents should feel they

:24:07.:24:12.

have got a responsibility to get involved. We are usually paying for

:24:12.:24:15.

these mobile phone contracts and devices, we have a responsibility

:24:15.:24:19.

to monitor what is going on. Just before we continue, what about the

:24:19.:24:24.

issue of privacy? If you are a young gay person, you do not want

:24:24.:24:27.

your parents to know at that stage perhaps, do not want to have a

:24:27.:24:32.

little bit of privacy? There are often weighs four people in those

:24:32.:24:37.

circumstances to make contact with appropriate support systems, but I

:24:37.:24:40.

am old enough, I am in the departure lounge of life now!

:24:41.:24:46.

Hardly! I remember when you were put in detention for putting a note

:24:46.:24:49.

on a paper aeroplane that you sent across the classroom, let alone

:24:49.:24:56.

telephoning people from your desk. And I think it is perfectly proper,

:24:56.:25:01.

while children are still vulnerable, to be thinking quite hard about how

:25:01.:25:05.

they are contacting other people. What are you suggesting, Claire

:25:05.:25:11.

Perry, happens here? How are you going to know and encourage more

:25:11.:25:15.

parental supervision on this issue? I think if we go back to the

:25:15.:25:19.

recommendations of the Bailey Review, one of which was about

:25:19.:25:22.

having more family friendly access to the internet, and that is

:25:22.:25:25.

something that we have campaigned on, and indeed we are working on a

:25:25.:25:29.

process now to implement that with the big internet service providers.

:25:29.:25:33.

But I think it is almost educating parents, and thank you for covering

:25:33.:25:37.

this, because there has been a huge amount of interest in this, to say

:25:37.:25:40.

that actually you have got a responsibility, we cannot leave

:25:40.:25:44.

this up his cause of the government. We have all got to get involved,

:25:44.:25:49.

there is a partnership here, and you should feel he while on the

:25:49.:25:51.

front foot in your conversations with your children. You remember

:25:52.:25:55.

your horror when your mother threatened to read your diary? Of

:25:55.:25:58.

course, children should have privacy in Shard, but we have

:25:58.:26:04.

exposed them to a lot of third- party dangers. -- Chris Eakin

:26:04.:26:10.

childhood. Let's get back a bit of pair of Boris Bond's ability, we

:26:10.:26:17.

can all work together. -- a bit of parental responsibility.

:26:17.:26:20.

wanting to be too cynical, you could argue that is just common

:26:20.:26:23.

sense. You need to have government work done on something that most

:26:23.:26:28.

parents will agree with? I agree, and this is simply an expression, I

:26:28.:26:33.

think, of what is underpinning a lot of the work, which is we need a

:26:33.:26:37.

return to common sense, but with the focus of Number Ten and the

:26:37.:26:41.

Government and the Industry and parents getting involved, we would

:26:41.:26:45.

get to a place where Britain is the safest place to grow up as a child

:26:45.:26:49.

in an online world, and that is a good thing. Yes, we do not want to

:26:49.:26:53.

discourage people from becoming technically savvy, but I think that

:26:53.:26:57.

would be pretty hard, my kids are already way ahead of me. In terms

:26:57.:27:02.

of what the Government can do, a crackdown on raunchy music videos,

:27:02.:27:07.

children's access to lads' mags, what are you suggesting? These were

:27:07.:27:10.

front and centre in the Bailey report, and excellent progress has

:27:10.:27:16.

been made, but there is still things to be done. We were chatting

:27:17.:27:21.

people -- chatting about people not -- we were chatting about people

:27:21.:27:25.

watching fairly explicit music videos on MTV, and many others

:27:25.:27:29.

would like to see a proper age rating system, so that parents can

:27:30.:27:33.

choose what their kids are actually watching. The technology gets

:27:33.:27:38.

clever if you can embed those ratings in an online video, and

:27:38.:27:41.

family-friendly builders can pick them up and scream that material.

:27:41.:27:45.

All the technological solutions are there, we are finally focusing on

:27:45.:27:49.

this, and I think parents have a right of responsibility. You can

:27:49.:27:55.

always turn the internet off. People say, Mike kids are on the

:27:55.:28:03.

internet or might, you can switch it off. -- Mike kids. On that issue,

:28:03.:28:07.

the government is limited on what it can do here. Is it a question of

:28:07.:28:12.

holding back the tide? Raunchy music videos are everywhere, on the

:28:12.:28:15.

television, advertising on billboards, how are you going to

:28:15.:28:19.

stop your children being exposed to it? Acting sometimes it can be a

:28:19.:28:27.

question of taking an interest,. -- I think. We should not forget that

:28:27.:28:30.

mobile phones and social media can be used as a network for bullying.

:28:31.:28:35.

Schools have done a lot of work on that. Some of it is about

:28:35.:28:39.

discussing with young people and educating them. The other thing

:28:39.:28:43.

that is sometimes overlooked in his conversation which causes me very

:28:43.:28:47.

great anxiety is, at the same time as thinking about his use of

:28:47.:28:51.

sexualisation as sex, very little seems to be said about the violence

:28:51.:28:58.

that appears on so much readily accessible media, and probably

:28:58.:29:02.

young people are every bit as impressionable in that area as they

:29:02.:29:07.

are around sex, and we possibly need to do some better thinking

:29:08.:29:13.

about how that can be synthesised to make sure that it is reaching

:29:13.:29:19.

people of an appropriate age. Princess Diana, famously, took her

:29:19.:29:23.

children to a film for which they were under-age, and it was regarded

:29:23.:29:27.

as a little bit of a food. Well, that raises the question of whether

:29:27.:29:30.

we are thinking hard enough about these things in the first place.

:29:31.:29:40.

Thank you for being a guest of the Not everything stops when it snows.

:29:40.:29:44.

Not this programme, and we have a busy week in politics. President

:29:44.:29:48.

Obama begins his second term officially this afternoon with his

:29:48.:29:52.

public re-inauguration. The Prime Minister will make a statement in

:29:52.:29:56.

the House of Commons this afternoon on the hostage crisis in Algeria.

:29:56.:30:02.

On Wednesday we will get his long awaited speech on Europe. On Friday

:30:02.:30:06.

the GDP figures are out which could show that the economy is back in

:30:06.:30:11.

negative territory. Joining me now from snowy College

:30:11.:30:16.

Green are Helen Lewis, the deputy editor of the New Statesman, and

:30:16.:30:20.

Kieran Lewis of the -- and Kiran Stacey of the Financial Times.

:30:20.:30:23.

Three British hostages still unaccounted for, it seems the

:30:23.:30:28.

number of foreigners killed will almost certainly go up? Overnight

:30:28.:30:31.

we thought around 23 hostages or people in total may have been

:30:32.:30:37.

killed, the number is now looking much, much high as they go through

:30:37.:30:43.

the gas plant and see how heavy the damage was both to the hostages and

:30:43.:30:48.

hostage-takers. What about the rhetoric coming out of Number Ten?

:30:48.:30:52.

We have heard from David Cameron and William Hague. I mean the

:30:52.:30:56.

rhetoric in terms of how Britain should respond. William Hague has

:30:56.:31:00.

pointed to Somalia as an example of what might happen in Whalley and

:31:00.:31:07.

has said that Britain is not omnipotent, which is something we

:31:07.:31:11.

need to reminding of occasionally - - he has pointed to Somalia as an

:31:11.:31:21.
:31:21.:31:26.

example of what might have been in mania. -- Mali. We have heard about

:31:26.:31:31.

the next essential threat, there must be a global response? -- and

:31:31.:31:36.

existential threat? The Prime Minister has come -- compared the

:31:36.:31:40.

situation to that in Afghanistan and says it could take decades to

:31:40.:31:45.

sort out. What we will be doing there for decades is really unclear.

:31:45.:31:48.

Talking to defence officials yesterday they were talking about

:31:48.:31:53.

organising conferences and helping regimes, dealing with their own

:31:53.:31:56.

people. Organising conferences for the next 10 years will not clear

:31:56.:32:01.

Al-Qaeda out. The next question is whether we will have troops

:32:01.:32:05.

involved, as they have been in Afghanistan and large parts of the

:32:05.:32:11.

at least, in North Africa for the next 10 years. -- Afghanistan and

:32:11.:32:16.

large parts of the Middle East. long awaited speech is scheduled

:32:16.:32:21.

for Wednesday this week. Do you think it will be an anti-climax

:32:21.:32:25.

after all this time? It has to be, it has been months and months and

:32:25.:32:29.

months that we have been waiting for it. With it being heavily

:32:29.:32:35.

trailed in advance, I don't see what Cameron can save which will be

:32:35.:32:41.

exciting red meat to the Euro- sceptic wing of his party. But he

:32:41.:32:45.

is promising a referendum. It is too late, we have already been told

:32:45.:32:50.

that, he needs to offer something else! It has all been taken into

:32:50.:32:55.

account now, the backbenchers will want to see something else entirely.

:32:55.:33:00.

I have been told there will be some other kind of red meat, something

:33:00.:33:05.

else for Euro-sceptic backbenchers, but I struggle to see what it is.

:33:05.:33:11.

Any ideas? Anything short of rolling tanks into Brussels will be

:33:11.:33:17.

slightly anti-climactic. There is a simple lesson in terms of marching

:33:17.:33:23.

people to the top of the hill and massaging expectations. Helen, how

:33:23.:33:27.

likely do you think the latest GDP figures will show the economy has

:33:27.:33:36.

shrunk? Very likely. People are saying 0.3%, that does not

:33:36.:33:40.

technically put us in a triple dip but it puts us close to one, which

:33:40.:33:44.

is devastating for a government which has pinned its reputation on

:33:44.:33:48.

economic recovery, it will overshadow politics for the next

:33:48.:33:53.

couple of weeks. Kiran Stacey, in terms of the talk about a triple

:33:53.:33:58.

dip recession, it is dangerous territory for George Osborne?

:33:58.:34:04.

But he has become a real tough love chance and everything bounces off

:34:04.:34:12.

him.... Tough love Chancellor. He still seems to be OK. Labour are

:34:12.:34:17.

struggling to get a lead on the crucial test of economic competence.

:34:17.:34:20.

People generally believe that the Government is doing the right thing,

:34:20.:34:25.

even if it is not quite working it will work eventually and, besides,

:34:25.:34:30.

those Labour lot, we don't really trust them on the economy. So I

:34:30.:34:34.

think he has quite a lot of credit with voters and will do even if we

:34:34.:34:39.

are going to triple dip. Do you agree? Absolutely not. I think a

:34:39.:34:44.

lot of the changes this year will be felt in people's pockets, the

:34:44.:34:47.

austerity. We have had a squeeze a living standards for years and the

:34:47.:34:52.

worst pain has not happened yet. When it does, we will see whether

:34:52.:34:57.

he really is Teflon or not. When the UK loses its triple A credit

:34:57.:35:02.

rating, which almost certainly happen, George Osborne has made a

:35:02.:35:06.

huge deal out of the credit rating so that will be a massive blow to

:35:06.:35:11.

his credibility. Thank you both out in the snow. Get

:35:11.:35:17.

back inside. The Conservative MP and chairman of

:35:17.:35:22.

the Foreign Affairs Select Committee Richard Ottaway, a Labour

:35:22.:35:25.

MP and the former Lib Dem leader Ming Campbell joined me for the

:35:25.:35:30.

rest of the programme. Let's talk about Algeria and Mali. The Prime

:35:30.:35:34.

Minister yesterday warned that Islamic terrorism in the north and

:35:34.:35:37.

west of Africa was an ongoing threat which would take years to

:35:37.:35:42.

will become. This is a stark reminder once again off the threat

:35:42.:35:47.

we face from terrorism the world over. We have had successes in

:35:47.:35:51.

recent years in reducing the threat from some parts of the world, but

:35:51.:35:56.

the threat has grown, particularly in North Africa. This is a global

:35:56.:36:00.

threat which will require a global response. It will require a

:36:00.:36:05.

response which is about years, even decades, rather than months, and it

:36:05.:36:09.

requires a response that his patient and painstaking and tough

:36:09.:36:15.

but also intelligent, but above all has an absolutely iron resolve.

:36:15.:36:20.

Richard Ottaway, has he ramped up the rhetoric too much talking about

:36:20.:36:24.

a global threat needing a global response and that North African

:36:24.:36:29.

militants are existential threat, presumably to the West. I don't

:36:29.:36:33.

think so. If you look at the report of the 9/11 Commission after the

:36:33.:36:38.

Twin Towers attacks 12 years ago, they forecast that a growing

:36:38.:36:42.

population across the Middle East and North Africa would lead to

:36:42.:36:46.

social turbulence. I think what we have seen in the last few weeks,

:36:46.:36:50.

the social turbulence has arrived. Hundreds of millions of kids are

:36:50.:36:54.

out of work without proper jobs, no ambition or aspiration, and they

:36:54.:36:59.

are seduced by the jihadist militants. Actually if there is a

:36:59.:37:03.

challenge here now, it is one of they'd rather than military. The

:37:03.:37:09.

focus has to go on to how to redress the social turbulence we

:37:09.:37:17.

are seeing in the region. David Cameron made a loose comparison in

:37:17.:37:20.

the response, like the response he made in Afghanistan, up that there

:37:20.:37:25.

should be so military involvement. Do you think he will rule that out?

:37:25.:37:30.

I would be surprised if we saw blips on the ground. I think you'll

:37:30.:37:35.

see support and aid like we have in Mali, providing logistics support,

:37:35.:37:39.

I think that is what he will be saying this afternoon. Ming

:37:39.:37:44.

Campbell, what do you want to hear from David Campbell? More about

:37:44.:37:49.

tough but intelligent. When you are assessing the rhetoric, you have to

:37:49.:37:53.

listen to the whole of it. The Prime Minister has been in back-to-

:37:53.:38:00.

back meetings of COBRA for the last four days, it is inevitable that

:38:00.:38:04.

you will have a sense of relief, you might begin stronger and more

:38:04.:38:11.

dramatic terms. I think a lot will depend on the intelligence and

:38:11.:38:15.

foreign policy analysis. This is an area where the United Kingdom has

:38:15.:38:19.

not been particularly prominent for quite a long time, and in that

:38:19.:38:23.

respect we will have to work in close co-operation with the French,

:38:23.:38:27.

because they know this part of the world rather better than we do. I

:38:27.:38:35.

also hope that he will talk about operating, along with our lives. --

:38:35.:38:41.

along with allies. Have we been slow off the mark in dealing with

:38:41.:38:45.

the North African jihadist threat? We are still out of Afghanistan and

:38:45.:38:51.

will not be out of there until 2014, although there are suggestions, and

:38:51.:38:55.

Obama might talk about it today, that the Americans would come out

:38:55.:38:59.

earlier. We might then come out earlier two. We have a very

:38:59.:39:04.

substantial cuts to the defence budget, we are going from 98,000

:39:04.:39:09.

members of the army to 82,000. When people are talking about pits on

:39:09.:39:14.

the ground, it might not be choice, it might be a necessity -- bids on

:39:14.:39:22.

the ground. Gisela Stuart, bearing in mind the terms that David

:39:22.:39:26.

Cameron used, should we be providing a more robust response?

:39:26.:39:30.

Number 10 have reiterated there will be no combat role for British

:39:30.:39:33.

forces in Mali, but does the British Government need to be

:39:33.:39:39.

upping its game? It needs to say something this afternoon about the

:39:39.:39:44.

security of these workers working in oil and gas installations. But

:39:44.:39:49.

he needs to show a sense of how this happened. The first

:39:49.:39:52.

international arrest warrant for Osama Bin Laden was requested in

:39:52.:39:57.

the mid- 90s by Gaddafi. There has been an awareness in North Africa

:39:57.:40:01.

of a fundamental threat, which I think the West has ignored, to some

:40:01.:40:07.

extent. Secondly, how does he think the NATO Lycett allies will work

:40:07.:40:15.

together? It is the intelligent approach I am looking for, rather

:40:15.:40:20.

than tough language, which could be applied to any conflict. Richard,

:40:20.:40:24.

there is a difference between criminal gangs of Islamic militants

:40:24.:40:33.

and jihadi is, Mokhtar Belmokhtar was one of those. And also over-

:40:33.:40:37.

reacting and saying it is a global threat from Al-Qaeda. Should it be

:40:37.:40:40.

left more internally to some of the North African countries to deal

:40:40.:40:46.

with because there is a risk of escalating the conflict? A around

:40:46.:40:50.

the world, Al-Qaeda is being driven out of its traditional heartlands

:40:50.:40:57.

of Pakistan and Afghanistan and moving into Somalia, Algeria, Mali,

:40:57.:41:03.

Nigeria. It needs an international response. The effort lies primarily

:41:03.:41:05.

in intelligence, reassessment of the strategic role that the West

:41:05.:41:10.

will play. They have been driven out of Pakistan and Afghanistan in

:41:10.:41:16.

part because of drone attacks. That is why they have gone. Does it not

:41:16.:41:19.

need to be matched in the same way in these other parts of north and

:41:19.:41:24.

west Africa? They have been driven out but not destroyed. They moved

:41:24.:41:27.

to other countries where governments is weak in the hope of

:41:27.:41:30.

exploiting it. If you go through the Middle East, starting with

:41:30.:41:35.

Egypt, where the outcome of the most recent election as a matter of

:41:35.:41:39.

some dispute, going to Syria, where we don't know what the outcome is

:41:39.:41:44.

likely to be at all, in the Middle East there are lots of

:41:44.:41:47.

opportunities forced Dutch opera for instability and potential

:41:47.:41:50.

instability. If you just drive them from one country to another you are

:41:50.:41:54.

not dealing with the problem and you might be adding to the very

:41:54.:41:59.

instability in these countries. you think this is just a group of

:41:59.:42:05.

roaming criminals? They are criminals... It is money, drug

:42:05.:42:11.

running? It is cigarettes. Mokhtar Belmokhtar was making money out of

:42:11.:42:15.

illegal cigarettes. They are very important thing is not to call this

:42:15.:42:20.

a war. If you call it a war, you are using their language and

:42:20.:42:26.

adopting or endorsing their moral justification. Name mentioned Syria,

:42:26.:42:31.

but we have to be careful who we work with. -- Ming Campbell

:42:31.:42:37.

mentioned Syria. Some of the Syrian opposition needs to take a closer

:42:37.:42:45.

look... The Prime Minister himself, clearly being the left, one way or

:42:45.:42:48.

another, out of what was going on and what the Algerian government

:42:48.:42:54.

was doing, do you think David Cameron's language, and William

:42:54.:42:58.

Hague's, changed, in the way they were talking about the Algerians?

:42:58.:43:02.

For they were clearly frustrated at being excluded but I don't think it

:43:02.:43:05.

made much difference to the end result, they just wanted

:43:05.:43:08.

information, which is understandable. I think their

:43:09.:43:12.

response has been and continues to be pretty mature. I don't read

:43:12.:43:17.

anything into this. Let's turn to the Prime Minister's

:43:17.:43:22.

big speech on Europe. We have turned to it so awful lot of times!

:43:22.:43:26.

We have learned this morning we will get to hear what David Cameron

:43:26.:43:36.
:43:36.:43:37.

has to say on Wednesday, we hope! A UKIP MP joins us now. We have a

:43:37.:43:41.

vexed tracks from the speech, are you satisfied? -- we have extracts

:43:42.:43:47.

from the speech. I am looking forward to a firm commitment from

:43:47.:43:51.

David Cameron that he believes the British role remains within the

:43:51.:43:56.

European Union as a leading player. That will be the important part.

:43:56.:44:04.

an in-out referendum crucial to satisfy your colleagues? I think he

:44:04.:44:08.

quite clearly wants to give it his best shot at achieving a new

:44:08.:44:12.

relationship with the rest of Europe and, let's face it, the rest

:44:12.:44:17.

of Europe needs a new -- a new relationship with itself at the

:44:17.:44:21.

moment. And he will probably put back to the British people in a

:44:21.:44:25.

referendum. Will it satisfy some of your colleagues? Some of my

:44:25.:44:29.

colleagues would never be satisfied unless we were outside of the

:44:29.:44:33.

European Union. But I think it will satisfy the broad middle ground of

:44:33.:44:41.

the Conservative Party and Britain as a whole. David Cameron will move

:44:41.:44:43.

into your territory, taking away the reason for disaffected Tories

:44:43.:44:49.

to vote for you? The only referendum that would make any

:44:49.:44:53.

sense would be an in-out referendum very soon. He cannot renegotiate

:44:53.:44:57.

our relationship with the EU. If you are going to change that you

:44:58.:45:02.

need a new treaty with unanimous consent of the 27 member states, 28

:45:02.:45:07.

when Croatia joins. I think the whole thing as a Conservative Party

:45:07.:45:12.

con trick to try to get voters back onside before the 2014 Euro-

:45:12.:45:17.

elections and the general election in 2015. If he wants to renegotiate

:45:17.:45:21.

he can do that now and it would put him in a strong position if he

:45:21.:45:25.

renegotiated now and brought that before the general election, but he

:45:26.:45:31.

can't do that because it is not on offer. Richard Ottaway, it is a

:45:31.:45:37.

conservative con-trick? Rubbish. This is a very serious policy and

:45:37.:45:42.

UKIP obviously have their own agenda. We are not in a position to

:45:42.:45:45.

have a referendum anyway because there is not a majority in

:45:45.:45:50.

parliament that wants to have a referendum. A sensible, measured

:45:50.:45:55.

approach is the right way forward. There would be if the Liberal

:45:55.:45:59.

Democrats came on board. In 2010 make promised an earn-out

:45:59.:46:03.

referendum in their manifesto. Where has that on? If if further

:46:03.:46:09.

powers were to be transported to Brussels, and that is in the

:46:09.:46:12.

Conservative -- the coalition agreement. If further powers were

:46:13.:46:17.

transported to Brussels, there would be a referendum. In 2010 the

:46:18.:46:23.

Liberal Democrat said we will have a fundamental... I think you did!

:46:23.:46:27.

certainly did not campaign and it. The Liberal Democrats therefore

:46:27.:46:30.

remain committed to end in out referendum the next time a British

:46:30.:46:33.

government signs up to a fundamental change... The fact you

:46:33.:46:37.

are committed to end in out referendum, not just a referendum.

:46:37.:46:41.

Why has that changed? We have the coalition agreement. It is the

:46:41.:46:48.

measure of an agreement between the two parties. It is not a con trick,

:46:48.:46:52.

it is an effort to square a circle, to set us by Angela Merkel adopt

:46:52.:46:58.

the same time Gisela Stuart. The fact of the matter is... This is

:46:58.:47:04.

all my fault?! I am just pointing out how difficult it is. If you go

:47:04.:47:07.

into Europe and say we know there is a crisis in the eurozone, we

:47:07.:47:13.

know you need stability but we are not going to help unless you do a,

:47:13.:47:17.

b and c, you are likely to get a favourable response. If we say, we

:47:17.:47:21.

know there is a crisis, the stability of the eurozone is in our

:47:21.:47:25.

financial and economic interest, we will help. But, by the way, here

:47:25.:47:30.

are some other things we would like to consider. A you think there is a

:47:30.:47:40.
:47:40.:47:41.

good chance of repatriating powers? Should then be a referendum now?

:47:41.:47:46.

what is the question? The European Union will fundamentally change,

:47:46.:47:49.

those within the eurozone will have deeper integration, and that means

:47:49.:47:53.

those countries outside, including the UK, needs to look at how they

:47:53.:47:57.

relate to it. That is what can and ought to address, whereas he

:47:57.:48:01.

created... It will be interesting to see how he does, because he is

:48:01.:48:04.

giving a speech for internal party political reasons, not because he

:48:04.:48:08.

has got something useful to say, and unless you tell us what the out

:48:08.:48:14.

would mean, it really is a con, and he ought to address... How is it a

:48:14.:48:19.

con? She is saying that the outbid of the referendum is a con to the

:48:19.:48:25.

British people. The only thing that makes sense, is do you want to be

:48:25.:48:28.

part of the United States of Europe? That is where it is heading,

:48:29.:48:33.

it is almost there anyway. Do you want to reassert just status as an

:48:33.:48:37.

independent nation? There is no other choice on offer. You were

:48:37.:48:41.

talking about further powers being taken by the EU, and it is very

:48:41.:48:44.

difficult from my position in the parliament, where I see this

:48:44.:48:48.

legislation coming through, to see what powers they could still take.

:48:48.:48:53.

There's very little now that the House of Commons has power over.

:48:53.:48:58.

According to a German study in 2006, about 84% of our new laws come from

:48:58.:49:03.

the European Union, covering every aspect of national life. OK, let me

:49:03.:49:09.

put that to Gisela Stuart, that is the only choice. No, it is not. We

:49:09.:49:12.

will always have to have a relationship with our neighbours.

:49:12.:49:15.

But you could come out of the European Union had just be like

:49:15.:49:22.

Norway? But we are not Norway, we are the sixth largest... It is

:49:22.:49:26.

crazy, that is not the choice, but there is a fundamental question for

:49:26.:49:29.

those countries within the geography of Europe who will not

:49:30.:49:33.

join the single currency and how they will relate to each other and

:49:33.:49:38.

how they will relate to the core of Europe, and that is the work that

:49:38.:49:44.

camera needs to do. Let me explode the myth about Norway. It sits at

:49:44.:49:47.

side of the room when decisions are being taken, but in order to trade

:49:47.:49:52.

with... They still have access to the markets. It has to sign up to

:49:52.:49:55.

all the protocols, and edition, often forgotten, it has to

:49:55.:50:01.

contribute money to the European Union which, if scaled up, would be

:50:01.:50:06.

equivalent to �3.5 billion for the UK. So this notion that somehow

:50:06.:50:10.

Norway is a paradigm that we should aim for makes no sense whatsoever.

:50:10.:50:16.

It gives you obligations, but it does not give you openings. Gerard

:50:16.:50:19.

Butler, you are going to say something. We are much bigger and

:50:19.:50:24.

more powerful than Norway. Norway and Switzerland are not in the EU,

:50:24.:50:28.

they both have higher per-capita incomes than Britain. Switzerland

:50:28.:50:32.

did a study in 2006 on its possible relationship with the EU, and they

:50:32.:50:37.

worked out it would cost them six times more to actually be a member

:50:37.:50:41.

of the European Union than stay outside. Both of those countries to

:50:41.:50:45.

trade with the EU. Britain is a much bigger economy than they are.

:50:45.:50:49.

We could still trade with the EU and the rest of the world, but what

:50:49.:50:52.

is important is that Britain is a global trading nation, and we do

:50:52.:50:56.

not want to restrict ourselves just to the European Union. What should

:50:56.:51:03.

Ed Miliband be saying now? Something! At the moment there is a

:51:03.:51:07.

lot of prevarication from Labour in terms of what they would offer.

:51:07.:51:12.

and a half years away from a general election... No, it is no

:51:12.:51:17.

good, no... It is for the Government to propose. This beaches

:51:17.:51:20.

of David Cameron's choosing, and if he does not have something useful

:51:20.:51:24.

to say, he should not have talked it up. This is the same Labour

:51:24.:51:29.

Party that joined with the Euro- sceptics on the backbenches of the

:51:29.:51:34.

Conservative Party in order to defeat the Government's proposal

:51:34.:51:37.

about the budget of the European Union. If we are cutting everything

:51:37.:51:41.

including welfare, we cut this as well. This is an opportunity to say

:51:42.:51:46.

that and then say we are committed Europeans. We never have

:51:46.:51:49.

opportunism in politics, of course! Thank you very much.

:51:49.:51:53.

For easing weather and snow across many parts of the UK, have you

:51:53.:51:57.

noticed? It has brought transport to a standstill in some parts of

:51:57.:52:01.

the country. Nearly 5,000 schools have been closed and passengers are

:52:01.:52:09.

facing delays to journeys by road, Heathrow has cancelled more than 10

:52:09.:52:14.

design sign of its schedule, 187 fights, while flights at Leeds,

:52:14.:52:18.

Manchester and East Midlands have been suspended. -- more than 10% of

:52:18.:52:22.

its schedule. Jo main roads in North Yorkshire have been closed

:52:22.:52:30.

because of snow. -- two. Up to eight inches of snow is forecast to

:52:30.:52:34.

fall in some areas. West Yorkshire has been at the centre of today's

:52:34.:52:40.

snow for, and Ed Thomas is in Bradford. Ed, how did you get to

:52:40.:52:46.

where you are? With a lot of difficulty, but I did get here,

:52:46.:52:52.

that is the good thing! It has just started to slow down, the snow here,

:52:52.:52:56.

but this is the picture in West Yorkshire now, Bradford today. When

:52:56.:53:01.

people walk up on the street this morning, they saw all this no, and

:53:01.:53:05.

then they decided to go back to bed again. A lot of these cars have not

:53:05.:53:11.

moved today. This one behind he is a taxi, and this has had an impact

:53:11.:53:17.

on people's lives. -- behind me. This is how much snow as fallen in

:53:17.:53:21.

Bradford, not scientific, but it would give you some idea. I am told

:53:21.:53:24.

it is up to five inches. Four streets like this, it has meant a

:53:24.:53:29.

lot of people have had to stay indoors. Because of that, a lot of

:53:29.:53:34.

schools have closed in Yorkshire, over 750 have had to shut their

:53:34.:53:37.

doors to children, which has had an impact on people's lives because it

:53:37.:53:41.

stops parents from going to work. We can just about walk on the

:53:41.:53:46.

streets here, but take a look at the main A-roads. They are passable,

:53:46.:53:50.

they have been gritted by the local council, as have many across the

:53:50.:53:54.

North of England, and they are passable with care. This road takes

:53:54.:53:59.

you into Bradford from the M60 to in that direction, so it is looking

:53:59.:54:05.

OK on the main roads. -- the M62. The back roads are passable with

:54:05.:54:11.

care. Problems also at Manchester Airport, Leeds-Bradford, Robin Hood

:54:11.:54:16.

airport, delays and cancellations. On the trains, the East Coast

:54:16.:54:20.

mainline has delays of half an hour, as on the West Coast Main Line. We

:54:20.:54:23.

have had delays and that as well. It all goes to show that the snow

:54:23.:54:27.

is not the heaviest it has been in the North of England, but it is

:54:27.:54:31.

having any impact on people's lives. It is dying down here now, but more

:54:31.:54:36.

is expected later in the north-east of England and Scotland. Check your

:54:36.:54:41.

local weather forecast to see how it will affect you. Ed, thank you

:54:41.:54:45.

for telling us in! Keep warm and the safe. It seems that the roads

:54:45.:54:49.

have fared better this year, because for a few years we have had

:54:49.:54:53.

this kind of snow, but is this more efficient gritting, cars have been

:54:53.:54:58.

able to pass, the trains have not been too bad, but the transport

:54:58.:55:02.

network, is enough being done to make sure that it functions? I grew

:55:02.:55:07.

up in southern Bavaria, where this would not even...! What I would say

:55:07.:55:12.

is, yes, they are getting better, any driver should ring the nearest

:55:12.:55:16.

driving school and get themselves lessons in driving in these kind of

:55:16.:55:20.

conditions. The thing which strikes me, even when the roads have been

:55:20.:55:26.

gritted, drivers are not used to it, they start using... It is not the

:55:26.:55:29.

snow tyres, it is winter tyres, which are more effective if the

:55:29.:55:33.

temperature falls below seven degrees, one-fifth of the year.

:55:33.:55:39.

Your garage will store it for you of a winter, just to learn to drive.

:55:39.:55:44.

Ming Campbell, Heathrow, is it acceptable that an international

:55:44.:55:49.

airport flight Heathrow can cancel 190 flights, as it has done today,

:55:49.:55:54.

and hundreds over the weekend? took me 10 hours from the centre of

:55:54.:55:57.

Edinburgh to my flat in Pimlico yesterday, because I went to

:55:57.:56:01.

Edinburgh airport for a flight which continued to be described on

:56:01.:56:06.

the internet as leaving at 5 o'clock. I got there, I was still

:56:06.:56:10.

there at seven, when they said it was cancelled, and then through the

:56:10.:56:14.

good grace of the people I know, because I am a regular traveller, I

:56:14.:56:19.

was put on to another flight. Contacts! Eventually, we got to

:56:19.:56:24.

Gatwick, not even Heathrow, at just after 12 o'clock. And the point is,

:56:24.:56:28.

we know that this is going to happen at some stage. Why on earth

:56:29.:56:32.

are we ready? It is like one of the slow-moving car crashes, you can

:56:32.:56:36.

see what is going happen four days ahead, but nothing is done to avert

:56:36.:56:44.

it. Isn't the problem specifically at Heathrow? Gatwick fared better.

:56:44.:56:50.

Because his eyes at 97% capacity, I heard the woman from BAA saying we

:56:50.:56:54.

have a plane landing every 45 seconds, there is no room to

:56:54.:56:57.

manoeuvre, to space them out. Don't we need to do something about

:56:57.:57:04.

expansion? The debate about expansion, of course, is enormously

:57:04.:57:07.

controversial, Boris putting his all in... The Liberal Democrats

:57:07.:57:11.

ruling it out. At Heathrow. Shouldn't that be the international

:57:11.:57:16.

airport? I think we have to look at other opportunities. Of course, if

:57:16.:57:20.

you have other opportunities in respect of airports, you have got

:57:20.:57:24.

to have the fast links to the centre of London, which are

:57:24.:57:28.

complementary to that. What about the impact this is having on the

:57:28.:57:32.

economy? Well, it is bound to have an impact on the economy, and what

:57:32.:57:37.

is more... The government cannot afford that at this stage. If it is

:57:37.:57:41.

any consolation, I was in Moscow a few weeks ago, when they get snow

:57:41.:57:45.

all the time, and there was just as much chaos, notably shut, airports

:57:45.:57:53.

closed. Is that a justification? but the point is, stuff happens, Jo,

:57:53.:57:57.

we just get on with it. But we ought to be looking ahead, and

:57:57.:58:01.

there is a serious issue about capacity. We have had this sort of

:58:01.:58:05.

snow every year for the last few years, George Osborne blamed it for

:58:05.:58:08.

the lack of growth, and no doubt we will have a shrinking of the

:58:08.:58:12.

economy and it is going to happen again. Can we allow the weather to

:58:12.:58:16.

have that much of an impact? As we say, it happens, and we have to

:58:16.:58:20.

learn to live with it. You know, we are struggling with the economy, it

:58:20.:58:24.

is bumping along, as you were saying earlier, possibly going into

:58:24.:58:29.

a corrugated bottom. On a corrugated bottom, we will finish

:58:29.:58:37.

there! The answer to our quiz, he was performing at President Obama's

:58:37.:58:43.

ceremony? Who knows the answer? Beyonce! Well done, Richard Ottaway.

:58:43.:58:46.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS