23/01/2013 Daily Politics


23/01/2013

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Grant Shapps, Caroline Flint and Wayne Hemmingway. With analysis of David Cameron's speech on Europe and reaction from Charles Kennedy.


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us to settle this question about Good morning folks. Welcome to the

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Daily Politics. The Prime Minister promises an in and out out

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referendum on the European Union before 2018. But before that he

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will try to negotiate a better deal for Britain that he can say yes to.

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David Cameron argues the reform of the EU to make it more competitive

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and he says if we can negotiate such an agreement, he will campaign

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for Britain to stay in. We will bring you reaction to that speech

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from the worlds of politics and business and we have got Prime

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Minister's Questions live at noon. And have we got the news wrong?

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Designer Wayne Hemmingway makes a plea for more good news.

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On the whole, stories that could move mankind forward and impact on

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our lives don't get the exposure they deserve.

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Good news, it will never catch on! What happened to Martin Lewis. He

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argued for that. With us for the duration on this big day for

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British politics, two politicians. Shadow Energy Secretary and former

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Europe Minister, that's relevant, it is Caroline Flint and

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Conservative Party chairman, Grant Shapps. Welcome to you both. Thank

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you. Thank you.

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So if David Cameron is Prime Minister after the next general

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election, he says the British people will get a vote vote on

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whether we should remain members of the European Union by 2018, giving

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him time to negotiate the repatriation of major powers from

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Brussels back to Britain. The Prime Minister said in a speech in London

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this morning, delayed from last Friday because of the Algerian

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hostage crisis. Jo has the details. The Prime Minister said that he

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wanted the European Union and Britain's relationship to it to

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change. The EU interfierce too much in natural life. Powers should be

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repattry repattry -- repattry repatriated to the United Kingdom.

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The treaty commitment for all member states should be removed.

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Some countries might want to pursue further inger further integration,

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but Britain does not. David Cameron would seek to negotiate a new deal

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with Europe. He set out a rough timetable. Legislation will be

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drafted before the next election. If the Conservatives win an overall

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majority at the election, they will pass the new law in their first

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year in Government and the referendum itself will be held in

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the first-half of the Parliament by the beginning of 2018. He concluded

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by saying if he could renegotiate a new settlement, he would campaign

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to stay in the EU. That, he said, was the best path for Britain and

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for Europe. Let's have a listen to what Mr Cameron had to say.

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biggest danger to the European Union comes not from those who

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advocate change, but from those who denounce new thinking as heresy. In

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its long history, Europe has experience of her particulars who

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turned out to have a point. My point is this, more of the same

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will not secure a long-term future for the eurozone, more of the same

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will not see the European Union keeping pace with the new

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Powerhouse economies, more of the same will not bring the European

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Union closer to its citizens. More of the same will just produce more

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of the same. Less competitiveness, less growth, fewer jobs. Today

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public disillusionment with the EU is at an all time high and there

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are several reasons. People feel that the EU is heading in a

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direction that they never signed up to. They resent the interference in

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our national life life by what they see as unnecessary rules and

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regulation. They wondered what the point of it is? They ask why can't

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we have what we voted to join - a Common Market. Now some argue that

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the solution is therefore, to hold a straight in/out referendum now.

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Now, I understand the impatience of wanting to make that choice

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immediately, I don't believe that to make a decision at this moment

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is the right way forward either for Britain or for Europe as a whole. A

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vote today today between the status quo and leaving would be an

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entirely false choice. Now, while the EU is in flux, and when we

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don't know what the future holds and what sort of EU will emerge

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from this crisis is not the time to make such a momentous decision

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about the future of our country. It is wrong to ask people whether to

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stay or go before we have had a chance to put the relationship

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right. How can we sensibly answer the question - in or out? Without

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being able to answer the most basic question. What is it that we are

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choosing to be in or out of? So the next Conservative manifesto in 2015

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will ask for a mandate from the British people for a Conservative

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Government to negotiate a new settlement with our European

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partners in the next Parliament. It will be a relationship with the

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single market at its heart. And when we have negotiated that new

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settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a

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very simple in or out choice. To stay in the European Union on these

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new terms or to come out altogether. It will be an in/out referendum.

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Legislation will be drafted before the next election and if a

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Conservative Government is elected, we will introduce the enabling

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legislation and pass it by the end of that year. And we will complete

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this negotiation and hold this referendum within the first-half of

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the next Parliament. It is time for the British people to have their

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say. It is time for us to settle this question about Britain and

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Europe. Now, I understand the appeal of going it alone, of

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charting our own course, but it will be a decision we will have to

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take with cool heads. People on both side of the argument will need

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to avoid exaggerating their claims. Of course, Britain could make her

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own way in the world outside the EU if we chose to do so. So could any

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other member state, but the question we will have to ask

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ourselves, is that the best future for our country? We will have to

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weigh carefully where our true national interests lies.

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The Prime Minister speaking this morning. Joining Caroline Flint and

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Grant Shapps, the deputy leader of UKIP, Paul Nuttall and we are

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joined by the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Charles Kennedy.

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Welcome to you all. Grant gran, the Prime Minister -- Grant Shapps, the

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Prime Minister said if we can negotiate such an arrange m, I will

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campaign for it, with all my heart and soul to stay in. What happens

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if he can't? We know there has to be a negotiation in any case

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because you have got 17 countries within the eurozone who will

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require a different treaty in order to handle the political aspects of

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that closer union of currency. So in that case, they require our kind

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of involvement in order to produce that new treaty and that of course,

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is a negotiation into itself. So the idea that there could be no

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negotiation, I think... No, no, I didn't ask that. I asked what

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happens if he can't sufficient powers returned to Britain that he

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thinks worthwhile recommending. What would he do then? We will have

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a referendum. One step at a time. First of all, we are going to

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publish legislation in this Parliament that we will pass in the

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next Parliament. I know that. November 2017 we will have a

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referendum based on what ever has been negotiated by then. You are

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asking what will be negotiated? no, I'm saying if the Prime

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Minister feels at the end of the day, that he is not -- he has not

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got a big enough package of powers to recommend to the British people

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what does he do in the referendum? Does he say we should still stay in

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or we have got today's status quo, we should leave. What should he do?

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Rather than trying to estimate the end of the process, let's be clear

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about what the process is and know there will be a referendum. So

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either way, people will get to choose and decide. That's vital.

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The British people have been overlooked for too long.

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You are not answering the question. The Prime Minister didn't answer

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the question this morning either. But Michael Gove... The public will

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answer the question. So does that matter? No, no, we are going to

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have a referendum which does not have a package of repatriated

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powers, we want to know what the Prime Minister will say? We don't

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believe that will be the situation for the simple reason - well, it

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won't be because there will be a renegotiation in order for the euro

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countries to do what they want. We don't know what he wants out of

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The British people will decide and... You won't answer the

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question and the Prime Minister won't. Michael Gove told The Mail

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on Sunday, you are only serious if you threaten to leave. That's what

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he said. You are not serious, are you? Well, a referendum gives the

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British people the upper han. They are not doing the negotiations,

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you are, are you going to say to Europe, if we are do not get a

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sufficient package which I can go to the British people and say,

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"Vote to stay in." Will you say, we will leave? The answer is we don't

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believe we will be in that position... You don't know, do you?

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I can't see into the future. The process is simple. In the en, the

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British people will get to decide. We have said we want a campaign to

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be in, but on a new basis of renegotiation. It is impossible to

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end up in the position that you describe.

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Grant Shapps, none of this answers my question. But I know when I am

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beaten, Caroline Flint? There will be some negotiation because there

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is clearly... So we are agreed...? Hang on a second. The truth is

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David Cameron, it is an important speech today for all of us in the

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country, politicians and the public, said we will have a referendum by

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the end of 2017, but it is on the basis of what we don't know is

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going to be his, if you like, negotiating platform of what he

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will decide, if I don't get this and if I don't get that, I will be

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saying yes or no. It is an unknown where we are going now. It creates

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uncertainty and in terms of building bridges, Andrew, in order

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to get any changes, we have to get, you have to get agreement by all 27

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member states. I don't think this is thought through about how we are

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going to negotiate. If it is true, as the Prime Minister says, that he

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would like to stay in the European Union.

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If you don't want a in/out referendum, vote Labour?

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position is we do not believe today, if we were in Government today,

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Andrew and we have been asked if we would have a referendum, our

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position is today where we stand as a country, it is not in this

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country's interests to have an in/out referendum.

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If you don't want a referendum on the EU, vote Labour? We are saying

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that... Is that right? We are saying, actually we are saying

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today we don't think it is right to spend the next five years.

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You will not give the British people... I condition tell you what

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the situation is going to be -- I can't tell you what the situation

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is going to be at the next election when these changes go on in Europe.

:12:37.:12:47.
:12:47.:12:47.

You criticised him for not being able to tell me. If we were asked

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do we think we should enter into discussions about an in/out

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referendum. I can't tell you what the European Union situation will

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be in two or three years time and in those circumstances we are not

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ruling out, but we are saying it is a distraction.

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You might offer an in/out referendum in the 2015 election?

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You don't rule that out? We cannot rule in or out if you like the

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possibility of having one in the future. What I'm saying... We have

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supported in Parliament, legislation, we have got

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legislation which says if there is a transfer.. You voted against it?

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No, we didn't. No, we didn't. I have it here. No, no, I have got

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your voteling record here. You voted against it.

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We thought Parliament should decide. We did not vote against it. The

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truth is, hang on, hang on. We have got law on the books that says if

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there is a transfer of of powers there should be a referendum. It is

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our law. Charles Kennedy and Paul Nuttall.

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Charles Kennedy, your party was having a petition demanding an

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in/out referendum. You must be pleased this morning? I have got

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long form on this. Because I was in favour of a referendum and voted in

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the House of Commons when I was a European spokesman back at the time

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of Maastricht all those years ago. I always felt that, I felt we

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should have had a referendum on Europe 25 years ago to try and

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lance this boil. We never have. Where we are now, is first of all,

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the one thing that is clear and it is only within the last ten days

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that Ed Miliband has made this all party despite what has been said,

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that that as a result of what we insisted in Government, the

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coalition Government, you have got a law on the statute book that says

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the future Prime Minister or Government negotiate a treaty at

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European Union level which involves more powers going from the UK to

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Brussels. There has got to be a referendum. So whatever the outcome

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of the election, all parties accept that and that is a guarantee.

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that's not an in slr out referendum. Your party at one stage was

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gathering a petition for an in/out referendum. You must be pleased, we

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Are we? The Prime Minister is not even able to answer question number

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one. Can you answer mind? My answer to you is that he is not putting

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forward an in-out referendum. He is saying if he is elected he will

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begin a process of renegotiation, the outcome of which he does not

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know, but he will put the outcome to the British people. That seems

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to me as clear as mud. I thought you wanted and in out referendum?

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When you have a referendum on Europe, as I hope we do one day,

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and there is a legal mechanism now it there is a future treaty.

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that is not in out. We know it is rather like the wording of the

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question to be put to the Scots. Everyone knows the question, are

:16:01.:16:05.

you for fundamentally against Europe? That is the argument and

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what it will become. I think this is very ill judged from the Prime

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Minister's point of view. What is the point of view Kip after today?

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-- UKIP after today. This is as clear as mud. If you want the

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reason why we have to be here, listen to these three. Because we

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do not know. If UKIP did not exist and it was not bowling where it was,

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the Prime Minister may not have -- would not have done this. That may

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or may not have been, but the Conservatives are the only party

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offering this. Will you run candidates in the Conservative

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marginals? I think we should. could result in Labour winning the

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marginal? It is hypothetical. You have the President of the European

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Commission, the President of the European Council, the President of

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France, the former Belgian Prime Minister, they have all said that

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negotiation is not on the table. But it is even more hypothetical

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that you would ever win an election so your only hope of an in out

:17:06.:17:09.

referendum is for the Conservatives to get an overall majority at the

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next election. You may not think it is a good enough promise but it is

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your only hope because you are not going to do it. Surely the point is,

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in the Liberal Democrat and Conservative manifestos, there were

:17:22.:17:30.

clear promises for referendum. There was no referendum promise.

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There was. You're mistaken. There was not. There was. No, I can tell

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you as a fact, there was not. The Lisbon Treaty had already passed.

:17:41.:17:48.

Cameron give a cast-iron guarantee. Just to be factually correct,...

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had already broken the cast-iron guarantee. For me because Lisbon

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was already past. We voted against it. -- only because. If you cannot

:17:58.:18:02.

be trusted on that, how can you be trusted on this? He gave a cast-

:18:02.:18:06.

iron guarantee that there would be a referendum on Lisbon. He broke it

:18:06.:18:11.

as soon as they passed. It had already been broken. This is about

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the Conservatives and UKIP politics. Cameron is running scared and

:18:17.:18:22.

worried about UKIP voters. Prime Minister has said this is a

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red line for any future coalition, Charles Kennedy, not that you would

:18:28.:18:35.

suspect the Lib Dems to promote it, but that he would proceed to do it,

:18:35.:18:39.

you would expect the coalition partners to abstain to allow the

:18:39.:18:42.

referendum to happen. Will the Lib Dems go along with that orders at

:18:42.:18:49.

about the possibility of a lid on coalition? -- or does that rule out

:18:49.:18:52.

the possibility of a Liberal Democrats conservative coalition.

:18:53.:18:57.

On the assumption that they would need another coalition. I could not

:18:57.:19:01.

see us signing up to that, myself, quite frankly. I can only speak for

:19:01.:19:09.

myself, because we're talking hypothetical. I think the preamble

:19:09.:19:15.

to the question reveals the immense amount of questions that David

:19:15.:19:18.

Cameron has raised for himself in this position. As opposed to

:19:18.:19:24.

providing answers with this contribution. He is now into all

:19:24.:19:28.

these hypothetical about the possible outcomes of an election, a

:19:28.:19:32.

possible coalition negotiation, Possebon negotiations in Europe and

:19:32.:19:36.

a possible referendum. He is going to have a hell of a time getting

:19:36.:19:38.

through three weeks of an election campaign without putting flesh on

:19:38.:19:44.

those bones. We will let you go, Charles Kennedy. I would suggest

:19:44.:19:47.

that our viewers may think that all four of you have a lot of questions

:19:47.:19:51.

to answer after this morning. It is not getting any clearer. Let

:19:51.:19:54.

us get reaction from the Eurosceptic Conservative

:19:54.:19:59.

backbencher, Mark Pritchard. Was it a good speech? It was. It was well

:19:59.:20:04.

considered, for for one clever in many ways. All credit to the Prime

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Minister. David Cameron is the first British Prime Minister to

:20:07.:20:10.

offer the British people a referendum in that format decades.

:20:10.:20:18.

It is also with an in-out option. That is considerable progress. I

:20:18.:20:22.

pay tribute to him today. He did not make it clear what is

:20:22.:20:25.

negotiating stance would be if he did not get the negotiating a deal

:20:25.:20:29.

that he wanted. Are you presuming that he would then campaign to pull

:20:29.:20:34.

Britain out? I would not presume to read his mind. Would you like to

:20:34.:20:38.

have heard? I think you raised an important question. There are

:20:38.:20:41.

challenges in the speech, not least whether Europe would allow us to

:20:41.:20:44.

repatriate powers back. Certainly there are noises out of Brussels

:20:44.:20:48.

and Paris this morning suggesting that they are reluctant to do so.

:20:48.:20:56.

That means that, yes, the question that door to the Prime Minister

:20:56.:21:01.

will be, "Prime Minister, which way would you campaign of the powers

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are not coming back?" so there are challenges ahead. For people like

:21:04.:21:09.

myself, who have voted for a referendum for many years ahead --

:21:09.:21:14.

past, with many other members are not left Parliament, we have come a

:21:14.:21:19.

long way. There is a consensus within the British Conservative

:21:19.:21:21.

parliamentary party. I think you are right to point out the

:21:21.:21:27.

challenges are now for the Lib Dems and the Labour Party. I think they

:21:27.:21:30.

will change their position by the time of the next election but my

:21:30.:21:35.

job is to give full support for the Prime Minister. He might be calling

:21:35.:21:39.

for a more competitive, more flexible and democratic Europe.

:21:39.:21:45.

That is a big shout. Lot of people would agree with that. -- In your

:21:45.:21:52.

eyes, what is a renegotiated the go -- renegotiated relationship?

:21:52.:21:58.

flexible, more competitive. And the more democratic Europe. But I think

:21:58.:22:02.

one of the other challengers for the next five years, does that mean

:22:02.:22:10.

that, to quote the Prime Minister, a does that mean more of the same?

:22:10.:22:14.

There are issues around border controls, whether we can start to

:22:14.:22:18.

repatriate social and employment laws and powers, trying to reduce

:22:18.:22:23.

the number of regulations. Europe may be uncompetitive. Britain

:22:23.:22:27.

should not continue to be not as competitive as it could be for the

:22:27.:22:32.

next five years. So why you supporting, would you like those

:22:32.:22:40.

powers repatriated? You agree fresh data's manifesto, an emergency

:22:40.:22:45.

brake from any legislation that affects financial services, the

:22:45.:22:50.

same with existing EU criminal- justice measures and policing. Are

:22:50.:22:54.

those you read lines? I would not call them that. Has a long shopping

:22:54.:23:00.

list and I think the fresh Start group has done an excellent job of

:23:00.:23:03.

setting out some of the areas that we would like to see returning to

:23:03.:23:06.

British sovereignty. There are challenges. The comments coming out

:23:06.:23:10.

of Europe within the last few hours, it does not bode well. But the

:23:10.:23:13.

Prime Minister is right to say that it does not mean we do not show

:23:13.:23:16.

leadership and it does not mean that we do not set out to achieve

:23:16.:23:23.

the very best for Britain. A better deal for Britain. I think it is my

:23:23.:23:28.

job to support the Prime Minister. Whilst saying that any strategy on

:23:28.:23:33.

Europe should be realistic and achievable, time will tell whether

:23:33.:23:37.

it is unrealistic or achievable. And you want those negotiations to

:23:37.:23:41.

start immediately? I do not think we should have more of the same for

:23:41.:23:49.

five years. I do nothing that is acceptable for British business and

:23:49.:23:54.

it does not help our competitors. We are being shackled by

:23:54.:23:59.

regulations and red tape and bureaucracy from Europe. Yes,

:23:59.:24:01.

support the Prime Minister but let's not wait for five years to

:24:01.:24:07.

get on and do some of the stuff. Also, if Europe is saying no to

:24:07.:24:12.

repatriating powers, we need to be more flexible with the timetable of

:24:12.:24:17.

when the referendum comes about. Finally, will this speech stock of

:24:17.:24:26.

the rise of UKIP? I think it will dent them. -- stop the rise. I

:24:26.:24:30.

think UKIP are now in a position where they will hopefully be able

:24:30.:24:34.

to support the Conservative party position. Otherwise they are going

:24:34.:24:38.

to help the Labour Party and even if the Labour Party moved to a

:24:38.:24:41.

referendum commitment manifesto, which I think they will, I think

:24:41.:24:45.

the commitment will be more fake or weaker than the strong commitment

:24:45.:24:50.

the Prime Minister has made today. -- more vague. Grant Shapps, Mark

:24:50.:24:54.

Pritchard has set out that it will be unacceptable to some of his

:24:54.:24:57.

colleagues if the strategy for negotiation does not start

:24:57.:25:00.

immediately. For a start, the interesting thing about this speech

:25:00.:25:03.

is that it unite the Conservative Party. The more interesting part of

:25:03.:25:07.

it is that I think it unites the country, who feel that things have

:25:07.:25:11.

moved a long way since the 1970s. He is said it will not be

:25:11.:25:15.

acceptable to wait five years. for some people it will never be an

:25:15.:25:19.

agreement that will be acceptable. They want to get out. Some people

:25:19.:25:22.

will have to produce but that is fine. The important thing, you

:25:22.:25:28.

cannot deny the debate is out there. People are talking about this in

:25:28.:25:34.

the streets. They want to have a proper choice. For the first time,

:25:34.:25:37.

the first time in decades, they know that this question will be put

:25:37.:25:40.

to them and they will have a proper choice. It is great that we can

:25:40.:25:44.

have the debate. David Cameron has not made it clear. What is the

:25:44.:25:48.

basis on which she will support voting yes or no in five years'

:25:48.:25:56.

time? There is plenty of time for the debate. But you have to build

:25:56.:25:59.

bridges. We know we will be on this. You want to sign up to everything

:25:59.:26:03.

that comes your way. You give away a lot of powers. That is ridiculous.

:26:03.:26:09.

He says it will dent the increases that you have made, Paul. He is

:26:09.:26:13.

confident that it will dent your rise? It will do the opposite. He

:26:13.:26:17.

is taking the debate on to our turf but is not going far enough towards

:26:17.:26:21.

the views of the British party -- British public. We will go on and

:26:21.:26:24.

win the European elections next year. He has made sure that Europe

:26:24.:26:27.

will be the centre point of the general election in 2015. We're

:26:27.:26:36.

happy about that. The French Foreign Minister, let's imagine

:26:36.:26:39.

Europe is a football club but you join but once you're in, you cannot

:26:39.:26:45.

say, "Let's play rugby". But actually, that is exactly how rugby

:26:45.:26:54.

started! Can you smell something whiffy? Perhaps a bouquet of rotten

:26:54.:27:04.
:27:04.:27:04.

eggs, a soupcon? But there are something strained wafting across

:27:04.:27:07.

the Channel. There is something from Europe that we cannot opt out

:27:07.:27:12.

of. According to today's papers, Le Stink has been attributed to a

:27:12.:27:17.

harmless but smelly leak from a factory in northern France. Is

:27:17.:27:20.

there nothing these Europeans will not stoop to? It is getting up the

:27:20.:27:25.

collective noses of the great British public, but at least on the

:27:25.:27:27.

south-east coast anywhere. At a time like this we would like to

:27:27.:27:30.

reassure you as a public service broadcaster we will endeavour to be

:27:30.:27:35.

fragrant at all times and aromatic, or at least three from olfactory

:27:35.:27:44.

unpleasantness. -- 3. I think the scriptwriters were loaded

:27:44.:27:47.

dictionary this morning! On the contrary, you can have this sweet

:27:47.:27:51.

smelling objet d'art arriving in your home, perfumed with flavourful

:27:51.:27:55.

Romans from Darjeeling, Ceylon or, in your case, your local POW shop.

:27:55.:28:00.

It is not to be sniffed at. Will you need to do is listen to us.

:28:00.:28:10.
:28:10.:28:11.

-- pound shop. Let's see if you can # Welcome to the cheap seats,

:28:11.:28:21.
:28:21.:28:35.

welcome to the cheap seats, welcome # Love, Love, Love, Love all your

:28:35.:28:45.
:28:45.:28:50.

You want to be citizens of the European Union? No! The Danes don't

:28:50.:28:58.

either. In the name of the present and in the name of the future, we

:28:58.:29:08.
:29:08.:29:22.

And to be in with a chance of winning a Daily Politics mug, send

:29:22.:29:30.

your answer to a special e-mail address: You can see the terms and

:29:30.:29:36.

conditions on our website: Coming up to midday.

:29:36.:29:42.

Let's have a look at Big Ben. There it is. Prime Minister's Questions

:29:42.:29:46.

just coming up shortly. It is chiming already. We are running

:29:46.:29:53.

late. Nick Robinson is with us. I'm told that the Prime Minister was

:29:53.:29:54.

cheered by backbenches -- backbenchers when he walked into

:29:54.:29:59.

the Commons. I expect he will be cheered when he stands up again.

:29:59.:30:03.

They think, the Conservatives, but they have got Labour on the run.

:30:03.:30:07.

Labour's hope is that the string of Tories that you have seen going

:30:07.:30:10.

through the studio today, is a return to the days of John Major

:30:10.:30:15.

were the Tories talk to each other about Europe. And the great British

:30:15.:30:20.

public say, "Excuse me, what about us?" I think this will be noisy and

:30:20.:30:25.

aggressive, because you are seeing today one of the defining questions

:30:25.:30:28.

of the next general election and the next five years in British

:30:28.:30:32.

politics. Who wins this argument between Cameron and Miliband will

:30:32.:30:36.

determine, quite possibly, who the next Prime Minister is. He has no

:30:36.:30:41.

choice but to go on Europe. He has to, but he will not tell us that he

:30:41.:30:46.

will back a referendum. Let's go Thank you, thank you Mr Speaker. Mr

:30:46.:30:56.
:30:56.:30:56.

Speaker... Before answering the honourable

:30:56.:30:59.

gentleman's question, I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in

:30:59.:31:02.

paying tribute to Kingsman Robert Shaw, 1st Battalion the Duke of

:31:02.:31:04.

Lancaster's Regiment. He died in The Queen Elizabeth Hospital in

:31:04.:31:06.

Birmingham last Wednesday as a result of wounds he sustained in

:31:06.:31:10.

Afghanistan. He gave his life for the safety of the British people

:31:10.:31:14.

and his brave contribution must never be forgotten. Our condolences

:31:14.:31:19.

are with his loved ones. Mr Speaker, this morning I had meet meetings

:31:19.:31:22.

with ministerial colleagues and I shall have further much meetings

:31:22.:31:25.

today. I am sure the whole House and the

:31:25.:31:35.
:31:35.:31:45.

whole country would want to associate themselves with the the

:31:45.:31:49.

comments associated kingsman Robert Shaw. Why is there such a gap

:31:49.:31:52.

between what the Prime Minister says and what the Prime Minister

:31:52.:31:56.

does? I think the honourable gentleman

:31:56.:32:00.

asks an important question and I do not deny for one second that we

:32:00.:32:04.

have had to take difficult decisions about defence spending in

:32:04.:32:09.

our country. At �33 billion a year, we have the fourth largest defence

:32:09.:32:12.

budget anywhere in the world and I think it is very important that we

:32:12.:32:17.

make sure that we have the right scale and shape of armed forces and

:32:17.:32:24.

they have the right capability. That's why we are investing in

:32:24.:32:28.

drones and investing more in key intelligence capabilities and

:32:28.:32:32.

making sure we have the aircraft to make sure we have highly mobile

:32:32.:32:35.

armed forces. I am proud of what our armed forces do and because we

:32:35.:32:40.

are balancing their budget, they will be better equipped for the

:32:40.:32:44.

future. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. 68

:32:44.:32:54.

years ago this Sunday the Nazi camp was liberated as we mark Holocaust

:32:54.:32:57.

Memorial Day will the Prime Minister commit to ensuring young

:32:57.:33:00.

people always have the opportunity to learn about what took place

:33:00.:33:09.

during the darkest period in our history and will he commend the

:33:09.:33:14.

work of the Holocaust Education Trust.

:33:14.:33:19.

In praising the Holocaust Education Trust. A brilliant charity and

:33:19.:33:23.

organisation that makes sure young children get the opportunity to go

:33:23.:33:26.

and see the places where the terrible events of the Holocaust

:33:26.:33:31.

took place. I had the privilege this week of meeting with the

:33:32.:33:35.

Holocaust survivor whose story was truly her owic and truly

:33:35.:33:43.

heartbreaking, but who in her 90s is making this case so future

:33:43.:33:50.

generations will learn. We should learn about happened in Rwanda, in

:33:50.:33:54.

Bosnia and Cambodia and elsewhere, there is too much prejudice and

:33:54.:34:00.

persecution in our world. THE SPEAKER: Ed Miliband.

:34:00.:34:04.

Mr Speaker... Mr Speaker, can I join the Prime Minister in paying

:34:04.:34:14.
:34:14.:34:17.

tribute to kingsman David Robert Shaw of the Duke of Lancaster's

:34:17.:34:26.

Regiment. Mr Speaker, can the Prime Minister guarantee if he gets nis

:34:26.:34:30.

in/out referendum -- his in/out referendum he will be campaigning

:34:30.:34:35.

to stay in? This argument, this entire argument is about what is in

:34:35.:34:40.

the natural interests of Britain. We want a European Union that is

:34:40.:34:44.

more open, more flexible, more competitive. Not just good for

:34:44.:34:50.

Britain, but good for Europe too. I don't think that was quite a

:34:50.:34:55.

complete answer to my question, Mr Speaker. Let's see if we can press

:34:55.:35:01.

him a bit further about how he is going to vote. Is he saying that if

:35:01.:35:08.

he doesn't achieve his negotiating strategy he will recommend, the

:35:08.:35:11.

part-time chancellor can just hang on a minute, is he saying if he

:35:11.:35:15.

doesn't achieve his negotiating strategy, he will recommend Britain

:35:15.:35:20.

leaves the European Union? Well, first of all, he is accepting

:35:20.:35:27.

the premise that the Conservatives will win the next election. And

:35:27.:35:30.

interestingly, and interestingly, not raising the fact that the

:35:30.:35:36.

unemployment figures are down once again today. Employment is up by

:35:36.:35:41.

90,000 this quarter. And the rate of job growth last year was the

:35:41.:35:46.

fastest since 199, but I answered - - 199, but I answered his question

:35:46.:35:50.

clearly, I want to see a strong Britain in a reformed Europe. We

:35:50.:35:54.

want to reset the relationship. We will hold that referendum. We will

:35:54.:35:57.

recommend that resettlement to the British people. But the question

:35:57.:36:03.

now is for him - has he got a a clue what he would do?

:36:04.:36:13.
:36:14.:36:14.

Mr Speaker he had - well, the clue is in the title, Prime Minister's

:36:14.:36:16.

Questions, he is supposed to be answering the questions! Now, he

:36:16.:36:24.

had six months to think about this. It is not too much to ask. The

:36:24.:36:28.

right honourable member for Rushcliffe he would say that he

:36:28.:36:32.

would vote yes in a referendum. The Children's Secretary, who is hiding

:36:32.:36:38.

away down there, he has briefed that he wants us to leave the

:36:38.:36:42.

European Union and I am just asking the Prime Minister a straight

:36:42.:36:46.

question - in the referendum can he guarantee that he will vote yes in

:36:46.:36:51.

an in/out referendum? Yes, I support Britain's membership of a

:36:51.:36:58.

reformed European Union. You don't only - only the Leader of the

:36:58.:37:01.

Opposition would go into negotiations expecting to fail. We

:37:01.:37:05.

go into negotiations knowing what is best for Britain, but let me put

:37:05.:37:11.

it to him again. We now have a very clear approach. A renegotiation and

:37:11.:37:16.

then a referendum. What is his answer? Let me tell him. He is

:37:16.:37:19.

meant to lead the Opposition and you can't fight something with

:37:19.:37:24.

nothing. Mr Speaker, I say first of all, the

:37:24.:37:28.

reason the people behind him are cheering is not because they want

:37:28.:37:34.

to vote yes in a in/out referendum, it is because they want to vote no.

:37:34.:37:39.

Now, look, he still hasn't answered the question. He still hasn't

:37:39.:37:44.

answered the question. Let's put it another way and give him another

:37:44.:37:47.

chance. We know from his speech this morning that he wants to go

:37:47.:37:51.

off and negotiate for fairness and flexibility and motherhood and

:37:51.:37:58.

apple pie in Europe, can he name one thing, just one thing, that if

:37:59.:38:01.

he doesn't get, he will recommend leaving the European Union?

:38:01.:38:06.

I don't want Britain to leave the European Union. I want Britain to

:38:07.:38:11.

reform the European Union. We have set out the whole areas where we

:38:11.:38:15.

want... THE SPEAKER: Members are shouting

:38:15.:38:17.

their heads off at the Prime Minister. They must desist. Let's

:38:17.:38:18.

hear the answers. The Prime Minister.

:38:18.:38:23.

We have been very clear about what we want to see change. The whole

:38:23.:38:29.

series of areas social legislation, employment legislation,

:38:29.:38:32.

environmental legislation where Europe has gone too far and we need

:38:32.:38:37.

to properly safeguard the single market. We want to make sure that

:38:37.:38:40.

ever closer union done apply to the United Kingdom. These are the

:38:40.:38:46.

things that we are fighting for, but let me put it to him again. We

:38:46.:38:49.

want a renegotiation and a referendum. What does he want? Or

:38:49.:38:56.

doesn't he know? So Mr Speak Mr Speaker, four hours

:38:56.:38:59.

since the big speech, he can't answer the most basic question of

:38:59.:39:07.

all! Whether He is for yes or whether he

:39:07.:39:15.

is for no? And why can't he answer is it Mr Speaker? Why can't he say

:39:15.:39:18.

he will vote yes in a referendum? Because he is frightened of the

:39:18.:39:21.

people behind him and the only thing that's changed is a few few

:39:22.:39:25.

months ago, when he said he was against an in/out referendum is not

:39:25.:39:29.

the situation in Europe, but the situation in the Tory Party. Why

:39:29.:39:33.

doesn't he admit it? He has been driven to it, not by the national

:39:33.:39:37.

interests, but dragged to it by his party.

:39:37.:39:43.

The most basic question of all is do you want a referendum? I do.

:39:43.:39:48.

Does he? Our position is no, we don't want

:39:48.:39:56.

an in/out referendum. My position is precisely the same

:39:56.:40:02.

as his position when we voted together, yeah, when we voted

:40:02.:40:07.

together, when we voted together in October 2011 against an in/out

:40:07.:40:11.

referendum. My position has not changed, it is his position that

:40:11.:40:15.

has changed Mr Speaker. And here is the truth. Six months

:40:15.:40:19.

of planning a speech on a referendum, he can't even tell us

:40:20.:40:29.
:40:30.:40:37.

whether it is a yes or no? THE SPEAKER: I said a moment ago

:40:37.:40:39.

that members shouldn't shout their heads off at the Prime Minister,

:40:39.:40:41.

neither should members shout their heads off at the Leader of the

:40:41.:40:44.

Opposition and the questions must and they will be heard. Mr Ed

:40:44.:40:46.

Miliband. Mr Speaker, he is going to put Britain through years of

:40:46.:40:49.

uncertainty and take a gamble with our economy. He is running scared

:40:49.:40:52.

of UKIP. He has given in to his party and he can't deliver for

:40:52.:40:58.

Britain. I have politely to say to the right honourable gentleman, his

:40:58.:41:03.

whole argument about there being uncertainty is undermined by the

:41:03.:41:08.

fact that he cannot answer whether he wants a referendum or not. Can I

:41:08.:41:13.

give him a little bit of advice? He needs to go away, get a policy,

:41:13.:41:18.

come back and tell us what it is. Meantime, our approach is what the

:41:18.:41:20.

British people want, it is right for business, it is right for our

:41:20.:41:30.

economy and we will fight for it in the years ahead.

:41:30.:41:35.

Mr Speaker, around the world world 170 million people, children under

:41:35.:41:40.

the age of five are stunted so malnourished that it affected their

:41:40.:41:43.

physical and possibly their cognitive development. The world

:41:43.:41:48.

has enough food for everyone. As leading NGOs like Save The Children

:41:49.:41:52.

launch a major campaign against malnutrition, will the Prime

:41:52.:41:56.

Minister tell us what action the UK will be taking during its

:41:56.:42:02.

presidency of the G8? My honourable friend is right to raise this issue

:42:02.:42:07.

particularly as we chair the G8 and because some of the leading non-

:42:07.:42:10.

Governmental organisations launched this campaign today. Above all,

:42:10.:42:16.

what Britain will be doing is meeting the commitment we made. A

:42:16.:42:20.

commitment that we have made that we have kept whereas many other

:42:20.:42:22.

countries have broken their promises and we will be using that

:42:22.:42:28.

money to make sure that we focus on the issues of malnutrition and

:42:28.:42:31.

stunting because it is not acceptable that there is so many

:42:31.:42:35.

millions of families in the world that go hungry every day and every

:42:35.:42:39.

night. Mr Speaker the British automotive

:42:39.:42:43.

industry a world-class success story. 82% of the cars we produce,

:42:43.:42:48.

we export. Key is inward investment and key to inward investment is

:42:48.:42:52.

continuing membership of the European Union. Has the Prime

:42:52.:42:56.

Minister heard the growing voices of concern being expressed from

:42:56.:43:01.

within the industry over the prolonged ung uncertainty his

:43:01.:43:05.

speech this morning will cre kate? Does he -- create? Does he begin to

:43:06.:43:13.

recognise the damage he might do to our economy and to a sector

:43:13.:43:17.

employing millions of British workers? It is very welcome for the

:43:17.:43:24.

first time since the 1970s, Britain is a net exporter of cars. That is

:43:24.:43:27.

something to celebrate, but I don't agree with him about what he says

:43:27.:43:31.

about business. This morning, you see, the Institute of Directors,

:43:32.:43:37.

the Director-General of the CBIi, the the Federation of Small

:43:37.:43:39.

Businesses, all coming out and saying this is the right approach.

:43:39.:43:42.

Let's get a good deal for Britain. Let's reform Europe and make it

:43:42.:43:45.

more open and competitive and let's put the choice to the British

:43:45.:43:50.

people in a referendum. I welcome the Prime Minister's

:43:50.:43:56.

answer and support for ending hunger. Does he recognise the

:43:56.:44:01.

importance of the route causes of hunger? The land grabs, the use of

:44:01.:44:05.

land for biofuels and the need to make sure that investment in these

:44:05.:44:10.

countries is suitably transparent? Will he use the G8 to to seek

:44:10.:44:13.

action on these causes? honourable friend is right to raise

:44:13.:44:18.

this and I think because Britain is meeting its promises in terms of

:44:18.:44:22.

the money for aid, we are best placed to make the arguments about

:44:22.:44:26.

what I call the golden thread that are all the things that help move

:44:26.:44:29.

move countries from poverty to wealth. Making sure there is a

:44:29.:44:32.

proper rule of law, accountable, a free press, property rights and we

:44:32.:44:38.

will be making the argument in the G8. We need greater transparency

:44:38.:44:44.

about land ownership, and greater transparency about companies and

:44:44.:44:48.

greater transparency about tax. Can the Prime Minister confirm his

:44:48.:44:53.

is the first Government for 30 years, not to offer hard-pressed

:44:53.:44:57.

consumers a Government funded energy efficiency scheme following

:44:57.:45:06.

the closure of Warm Front last Because scheme is many times the

:45:06.:45:12.

size of that scheme. Warm front helped 80,000 families a year. Our

:45:12.:45:17.

scheme could help to hundred and 30,000 families here so it is

:45:17.:45:23.

potentially a better scheme. -- 230,000 families a year. What

:45:23.:45:28.

assessment as the Prime Minister made of unemployment in my

:45:28.:45:32.

constituency, and in particular what assessment has made of that

:45:32.:45:37.

there being more or women in work than ever before? The point de

:45:37.:45:40.

honourable gentleman makes is absolutely right. There are more

:45:40.:45:43.

people employed in the private sector than ever before, and more

:45:43.:45:47.

women employed in our country than ever before. When you look at the

:45:47.:45:50.

unemployment figures that have come out today, what is remarkable is

:45:50.:45:54.

that employment is up in almost every region and unemployment is

:45:54.:45:59.

down in almost every region. There is a lot more to do but clearly

:45:59.:46:02.

over 500,000 new jobs in the private sector last year, the

:46:02.:46:06.

fastest job creation rate since 1989, I think this shows that we

:46:06.:46:13.

are on the right track. Does the Prime Minister believe it is fair

:46:13.:46:16.

the press and City Council, one of the areas of highest deprivation

:46:16.:46:21.

and poverty in the country should receive a 12% cut in government

:46:21.:46:25.

funding when his own West Oxfordshire district council

:46:25.:46:28.

receives only a 1% cut? Will the Prime Minister look at this again

:46:28.:46:34.

and give Preston a fairer deal? And what I would say to the honourable

:46:34.:46:37.

gentleman is that of course local government across the board is

:46:37.:46:41.

facing a difficult funding settlement. I do not hide from that

:46:41.:46:47.

but the figures are as follows. The area Formula Grand per head in his

:46:47.:46:53.

constituency is �501, but in my constituency it is �320. I

:46:54.:46:56.

completely accept that needs are greater in different parts of the

:46:56.:47:00.

country and that is why figures are different, but I think the figures

:47:00.:47:06.

speak for themselves. May I congratulate my right

:47:06.:47:14.

honourable friend on a landmark speech. Demonstrating serious

:47:14.:47:17.

leadership of our country and leadership on the important issue

:47:17.:47:23.

of Europe. Can I invite my Right Honourable Friend to agree with me

:47:23.:47:26.

on this issue, that it is not simply the United Kingdom which is

:47:26.:47:30.

seeking to renegotiate the treaties, there is a serious imperative on

:47:30.:47:34.

those members of the Eurozone who have introduced this disastrous

:47:34.:47:37.

single currency policy into Europe which has caused economic chaos.

:47:37.:47:43.

They are the ones in need of Treacy re- negotiation, not just us.

:47:43.:47:46.

thank my right honourable friend for what he says. The point he

:47:46.:47:50.

makes is correct. There is a big change taking place in Europe

:47:50.:47:54.

because of the reforms necessary to deal with the single currency. That

:47:54.:47:58.

is why treaty change and change in Europe is coming. There is also

:47:58.:48:01.

already a big debate in Britain about our role in Europe and I

:48:01.:48:04.

think that politicians have a choice. You either walked towards

:48:04.:48:08.

that and try to shake that choice and get a good deal for Britain and

:48:08.:48:12.

make changes that will benefit all of Europe or you stick your head in

:48:12.:48:15.

the sand as the party opposite is doing and hope the whole thing will

:48:15.:48:20.

go away. Why is it the Prime Minister thinks that Scotland's

:48:20.:48:27.

referendum process is too long, but he thinks his five year process is

:48:27.:48:31.

fine. --? The it is a very easy answer which is that the Scottish

:48:31.:48:34.

nationalists, in my view, misguidedly, want to leave the

:48:34.:48:40.

United Kingdom as it is. I will be arguing right across the House that

:48:40.:48:44.

Scotland should stay in the United Kingdom. I want to see a change

:48:44.:48:51.

Europe. Then we asked the people. - - changed Europe. It is a busy

:48:52.:48:55.

morning, and I'm sure the Prime Minister will have seen today's

:48:55.:48:58.

report from the Department of communities and local government

:48:58.:49:01.

highlighting the huge savings that could be made from turning around

:49:01.:49:06.

the country's most troubled families, such as the �224 million

:49:06.:49:11.

saved by councils in Greater Manchester, acquitting to 32,000

:49:11.:49:14.

per family. They asked the Prime Minister what he is doing to ensure

:49:14.:49:20.

these lessons are made use of across the country? I do not

:49:20.:49:23.

understand why people are trying to shout down what should be a cross-

:49:23.:49:27.

party initiative to try and deal with the most troubled families in

:49:27.:49:32.

our country. There is one council that actually spent up to 20% of

:49:32.:49:36.

its budget on just 3% of its families. This is a problem

:49:36.:49:40.

affecting all local authorities across the country and I commend

:49:40.:49:43.

the approach that the Communities Secretary is taking to bring

:49:43.:49:47.

together local councils and work out how we can help these families

:49:47.:49:54.

solve their problems and reduce a major impact on taxpayers as well.

:49:54.:50:00.

The Government's welfare bill will plunge 200,000 extra children into

:50:00.:50:04.

poverty. Children in places like Liverpool are already suffering.

:50:04.:50:08.

Yet the Government wants to make the poor go away by redefining

:50:08.:50:11.

poverty. Does the Prime Minister really think he is going to get

:50:11.:50:17.

away with this? What I would say it is that actually the introduction

:50:17.:50:20.

of universal credit will reduce the number of children living in

:50:20.:50:26.

relative income poverty by around 250,000. Those are the figures. On

:50:26.:50:31.

the issue of welfare, we face a clear choice. Given that in-work

:50:31.:50:35.

benefits have gone up by 20% over the last five years compared with a

:50:35.:50:38.

10% increase in wages, we believe it is right that benefits should

:50:39.:50:43.

not continue to go up ahead of wages. I know from what Labour have

:50:43.:50:47.

done this week, great sound of fury, voting against the Bill, saying it

:50:47.:50:52.

is wrong but completely refusing to reverse it. That is the policy

:50:52.:50:57.

vacuum that we face from the party opposite.

:50:57.:51:00.

By a given a keen interest in the single market's of the Prime

:51:00.:51:04.

Minister, will look at mortgage limits restricting legal work to a

:51:04.:51:08.

small number of larger firms and depriving local practices of the

:51:08.:51:15.

work that keeps them at the heart of local businesses?

:51:15.:51:19.

We do want to see a competitive market in financial services and in

:51:19.:51:22.

conveyancing. I pick it is a major issue in our economy to get a

:51:22.:51:28.

mortgage market moving. There are good signs that credit conditions

:51:28.:51:32.

are easing, but we need to make sure they are easing for people who

:51:32.:51:35.

are trying to buy their first flat and their first home who do not

:51:35.:51:38.

have a big deposit and a lot of help from the Bank of mum and dad.

:51:38.:51:45.

We need to make sure we're on their side. In answer to the member for

:51:45.:51:51.

Scunthorpe, the Prime Minister justified these very large cuts in

:51:51.:51:55.

defence spending with 5000 troops being sacked right now on the basis

:51:55.:52:00.

that he had to face some difficult decisions on expenditure. But those

:52:00.:52:05.

decisions were made in 2010. The security risk facing this country

:52:05.:52:12.

is now much worse. As he himself has abolished in many of his own --

:52:12.:52:18.

and many of his honourable friends feared. Given those threats, is

:52:18.:52:22.

there not an overwhelming case for looking again at the Strategic

:52:22.:52:24.

Defence Review and ensuring that our troops have the numbers needed

:52:24.:52:29.

to justify our defence? I think the honourable gentleman makes a

:52:29.:52:33.

serious point. The point about the defence reviews is that they are

:52:33.:52:35.

every five years and so there will be the opportunity to look over

:52:35.:52:40.

again. What I would say to him about the level of risk, and that

:52:40.:52:44.

made this point in my statement on Monday, is that the risks are

:52:44.:52:50.

changing. We face the biggest risk from the Afghanistan area, but the

:52:50.:52:55.

proportion of the risks we face has declined. So we are able to use

:52:55.:52:59.

resources, as we drove down in Afghanistan, to cope with the other

:52:59.:53:03.

risks. But the overall point is absolutely dead yes, we're going to

:53:03.:53:07.

have a smaller regular army, although the extra reserves will

:53:07.:53:11.

mean that overall level of our army hardly changes. But they will be

:53:11.:53:15.

better-equipped, more capable, more mobile, more capable of dealing

:53:15.:53:22.

with the modern threats that we face. Can I congratulate the Prime

:53:22.:53:28.

Minister on his speech on Europe this morning? As Prime Minister has

:53:28.:53:31.

a history of going into bat for Britain and the party opposite has

:53:31.:53:37.

a history of going in and surrendering. Can I ask the Prime

:53:38.:53:41.

Minister, is not a big difference between that side and this that

:53:41.:53:46.

this side trusts the people and that side wants to deny them a say?

:53:46.:53:51.

I think my friend back makes a very important point. Frankly, the

:53:51.:53:55.

British public have seen a treaty after treaty introduced to this

:53:56.:54:04.

house, passing powers from Westminster to Brussels, and they

:54:04.:54:07.

see a big change taking place because of the Eurozone. That is

:54:07.:54:11.

why I think it is right to resettle Our relationship with Europe and

:54:11.:54:21.
:54:21.:54:25.

then trust the people. Recent revelations show that serious abuse

:54:25.:54:28.

of powers involving blacklisting continues with the involvement of

:54:29.:54:33.

the police and security services. Will the Prime Minister order an

:54:33.:54:37.

immediate investigation into the scandal that has ruined and

:54:37.:54:41.

continues to run the lives of many hard-working men, women and their

:54:41.:54:48.

families? -- ruin the lives. I know the opposition will be raising this

:54:48.:54:53.

issue today in the debate and blacklisting is a completely and --

:54:54.:54:57.

a completely unacceptable practice. I think of the previous Government

:54:57.:55:00.

was right to make it unlawful and we have seen no evidence that the

:55:01.:55:06.

regulations are not doing their job. The company responsible was shut

:55:06.:55:10.

down in 2009, but let me say that a welcome the frankness that Labour

:55:10.:55:17.

are using on -- on opposition day debate to investigate something

:55:17.:55:24.

that went wrong while there were in office. My honourable friend

:55:24.:55:26.

insists on five excellent principles, including democracy

:55:26.:55:32.

based on national parliaments and Sue project's ever-closer union.

:55:32.:55:35.

Other member states want to go ahead with more integration and are

:55:35.:55:40.

demanding it. Last year, on the fiscal compact, they ignored his

:55:40.:55:45.

veto and went ahead, irrespective of the rules of the European Union.

:55:45.:55:49.

Will my right honourable friend tell us what will happen if by next

:55:49.:55:53.

spring they insist on going ahead with their own intended the poor

:55:53.:55:59.

souls -- intended proposals and what will he do in response? Can I

:55:59.:56:05.

thank my honourable friend for what he says? I think the Eurozone

:56:05.:56:09.

countries need to make changes to the European Union. They are

:56:09.:56:15.

changing the union to fix the currency. That is what Jose Manuel

:56:15.:56:23.

Barroso's report is about. I think that this, frankly, gives us the

:56:23.:56:27.

opportunity and the right to argue that for those countries that are

:56:27.:56:30.

not in the Eurozone and, frankly, I believe are never going to join the

:56:30.:56:34.

Eurozone, but there are changes that we would like, not just for

:56:34.:56:37.

ourselves but for a more open, competitive and flexible Europe.

:56:37.:56:41.

There is going to be change in Europe. The Eurozone countries need

:56:41.:56:45.

to make changes but we should not back off from pushing forward our

:56:45.:56:54.

agenda. Is the Prime Minister aware that there can be nothing more

:56:54.:57:02.

gruesome than to see him getting out of austerity riddled Britain to

:57:02.:57:12.
:57:12.:57:17.

wine and dine at Davos with several hundred at millionaires who helped

:57:17.:57:24.

to create the crash? Does it confirm the theory that if you want

:57:24.:57:29.

to identify the posh boys, look at the company you keep?! A seem to

:57:29.:57:32.

remember that last year I ran into the leader of the opposition but I

:57:32.:57:35.

will leave that to one side. To be fair, I think when he sees the

:57:36.:57:40.

speech I will be making, which will be arguing that we need greater

:57:40.:57:44.

transparency over tax, greater responsibility over tax avoidance

:57:44.:57:47.

and tax evasion issues, greater transparency about companies and

:57:47.:57:52.

land issues, he may even find there are some of the things that I'm

:57:52.:58:02.

going to say that he might agree with.

:58:02.:58:04.

Will be Prime Minister cut through the relevant arguments coming from

:58:04.:58:07.

the other side of the house and give a very simple message to the

:58:07.:58:11.

British people that if we have a Conservative government after the

:58:11.:58:16.

next election, they will have their say in a referendum on Europe. If

:58:16.:58:18.

we do not have a Conservative government, we will not have a

:58:18.:58:23.

referendum. My honourable friend makes a good point. I believe it is

:58:23.:58:27.

right to resettle a relationship with Europe, to make it more open,

:58:27.:58:31.

more competitive, more flexible, to make us feel more or -- to make us

:58:31.:58:34.

feel more comfortable inside that union and give the British people

:58:34.:58:41.

the referendum they deserve. the Prime Minister confirm that 3.4

:58:41.:58:46.

million families with someone who is disabled will be worse off as a

:58:46.:58:50.

result of his benefit rating cap? Why is he making life more

:58:50.:58:56.

difficult for these families? of all, Disability Living Allowance

:58:56.:59:01.

is not included in the cap and it is not related to people's income,

:59:01.:59:06.

it is actually related to people's needs. If you look as a whole at

:59:06.:59:09.

what we're doing with the disability living allowance,

:59:09.:59:13.

overall the amount of money we are spending on disability is going to

:59:13.:59:21.

go up and knock down. My right honourable friend's admiration for

:59:21.:59:26.

the economic and political wisdom of Lord Heseltine is well known. In

:59:27.:59:31.

the light of his speech this morning, will he consider inviting

:59:31.:59:35.

Lord Heseltine to conduct an inquiry into the consequences for

:59:35.:59:39.

the United Kingdom if we lose the EU -- if we leave the European

:59:39.:59:45.

Union? I always listen closely to what Michael Heseltine says and I

:59:45.:59:50.

am a huge fan of his plans for an industrial strategy. On the issue

:59:50.:59:54.

of Europe, we have not always agreed. He was a leading proponent

:59:54.:59:56.

of Britain joining the single currency and I have always been

:59:56.:00:02.

opposed to that. Of -- on the issue of the referendum, I remind my

:00:02.:00:04.

honourable friend that an in/out referendum was very much part of

:00:04.:00:10.

his manifesto in the last election. In the interests of collision

:00:10.:00:19.

harmony, I think we will leave that to one side.

:00:19.:00:25.

A Swansea constituent of mine with a chronic medical condition tells

:00:26.:00:30.

made but he has just �20 a week to spend on food and clothing after

:00:30.:00:35.

paying his utility bills. After April, after the welfare cuts, he

:00:35.:00:40.

will have just �2 a day. If the Prime Minister believes that we are

:00:41.:00:45.

all in it together, will be agreed to review the impact on the very

:00:45.:00:48.

poorest of the welfare cuts, so that the sacrifice of my

:00:48.:00:53.

constituents are in line with us on? I will look closely at what the

:00:53.:00:59.

honourable gentleman says. Let me just makes the point that if you

:00:59.:01:04.

compare 2013 with 2010 in terms of the level of benefits, it is worth

:01:04.:01:09.

making the point that an unemployed person on jobseeker's allowance is

:01:09.:01:13.

getting �325 more this year than in 2010. A couple on jobseeker's

:01:13.:01:20.

allowance, �500 more. And out of work mother, �420 more. What are

:01:20.:01:25.

the opposition trying to week after week is paint a picture that we

:01:25.:01:32.

have unfairly cut welfare. It is simply not true. Order. Mr Richard

:01:32.:01:37.

Fuller. Health inequality in the country is persistent and damaging

:01:37.:01:42.

and recently the Department of Health announced a 5.5% increase in

:01:42.:01:45.

their allocation to local authorities for public health

:01:45.:01:49.

responsibilities and a 10% increase for Bedford. Does the Prime

:01:49.:01:54.

Minister agree that these funds will go a long way to help tap --

:01:54.:01:58.

help tackle long term health inequalities? I think my friend

:01:58.:02:05.

back makes an important point. For many years, public health funds

:02:05.:02:11.

were raided to deal with problems in the NHS, because we increase the

:02:11.:02:16.

budget. We have run France -- we have ring-fenced some of this, so

:02:16.:02:26.
:02:26.:02:28.

that we can tackle some of these problems. The house has heard that

:02:28.:02:31.

the Prime Minister is looking forward to meeting people from

:02:31.:02:38.

national and international banks. When will you visit a Foodbank?

:02:38.:02:44.

me praise what food banks do in this country. I will point out that

:02:44.:02:48.

the use of the banks has increased 10 times under the last Labour

:02:48.:02:57.

government. He will the Prime Minister join me in paying tribute

:02:57.:03:00.

to the athletes who took part in the British transplant Games?

:03:00.:03:04.

Linked to that, well he encourage people to register for organ

:03:04.:03:14.
:03:14.:03:15.

donation which will help save lives? I pay tribute to all of

:03:15.:03:25.
:03:25.:03:51.

those who took part. He is right to Let me make the point that the

:03:51.:03:54.

reason we have to make the cuts is because of the mess left by her

:03:54.:04:02.

government. When it comes to helping the disabled and the

:04:02.:04:10.

vulnerable, this government... Crispin Blunt. By Pitt the Younger

:04:10.:04:13.

said that Europe was not to be saved by any single man.

:04:14.:04:19.

He went on to predict that England it would save Europe by her example.

:04:19.:04:23.

Will my right honourable friend be aware that I believe he is in

:04:23.:04:25.

danger of contradicting what impaired because his example today

:04:25.:04:29.

and his exertions over the next four years stand the best possible

:04:29.:04:35.

chance of rescuing the European Union for Europe and Britain.

:04:35.:04:39.

thank my friend back for what he says. He makes an important point,

:04:39.:04:44.

which is at the -- that the agenda is not simply saying that this is

:04:44.:04:47.

what Britain wants and if we do not get it, we will leave, it is an

:04:47.:04:51.

agenda that is good for the European Union. We face a

:04:51.:04:55.

competitiveness challenge from the countries in the south and east. We

:04:55.:04:59.

have to accept that Europe is not working properly. It is adding to

:04:59.:05:02.

the costs of business and regulation. We need to change that,

:05:02.:05:12.
:05:12.:05:12.

not just for our sake but for the So Prime Minister's Questions comes

:05:12.:05:16.

to an end and Europe dominated the exchanges. Ed Miliband showing once

:05:16.:05:22.

again that he always watches the Daily Politics before he goes into

:05:22.:05:26.

the chamber. He took the same line that I was taking with Grant Shapps

:05:26.:05:32.

as to what would happen if we don't get a deal. Will Mr, Mr Cameron say

:05:32.:05:36.

we should leave the European Union? The Leader of the Opposition had

:05:36.:05:39.

about as much success with the Prime Minister as I had with the

:05:39.:05:44.

chairman of the Conservative Party. Mr Cameron snapped back that what

:05:44.:05:47.

was Labour's real position on the referendum. They didn't know if

:05:47.:05:53.

they were for or against one. However, Mr Miliband replied there

:05:53.:05:59.

that he said no, we don't want an in/out referendum. He said, "We

:06:00.:06:04.

haven't changed our mind." So can I ask you Caroline Flint again, the

:06:04.:06:10.

question I began with before PMQs, if you don't want an in/out

:06:10.:06:16.

referendum, vote Labour? We think our interests are better served

:06:16.:06:19.

inside the European Union so we don't support an in/out referendum.

:06:19.:06:24.

Do we think there should be reform in the European Union? Yes, we do,

:06:24.:06:28.

but we don't support an in/out referendum. There are too many ifs

:06:29.:06:32.

about what Europe will look like next year and the year after, but

:06:32.:06:37.

what Cameron caused by his speech today is a huge amount of

:06:37.:06:41.

uncertainty that cannot be in our interests at a time when we need

:06:41.:06:48.

economic recovery. So we will go into the 015 election, with the --

:06:48.:06:54.

2015 election with the Conservatives promising an in/out

:06:54.:06:57.

referendum and Labour not? reason why we don't believe in an

:06:57.:07:01.

in/out referendum because we don't know what Europe will look like

:07:01.:07:04.

next year or the year after that. The priority has to be about

:07:04.:07:09.

getting jobs and growth across the European Union and in Britain and

:07:09.:07:14.

this is a distraction. Have you just fallen into a trap

:07:14.:07:21.

that the Tories created for you? You seem less certain before PMQs

:07:21.:07:26.

than after. You have had your marching orders. I said last week

:07:26.:07:29.

on Question Time that we did not support an in/out referendum and

:07:29.:07:33.

I'm saying it today and I have said the reasons why because we we we do

:07:33.:07:37.

not believe it is in the national interests and the problem we have

:07:37.:07:40.

got is Cameron is following his party interests rather than a

:07:40.:07:43.

bigger picture issue which is Britain.

:07:43.:07:46.

Perish the thought that a pliical leader would -- political leader

:07:46.:07:50.

would follow his party interest. It will never catch on! Thank you for

:07:50.:07:56.

clarifying that. Let's go to what our viewers made of PMQs. Yes, some

:07:56.:08:01.

interesting e-mails. One viewer said David Cameron looks like a

:08:01.:08:08.

fool announcing a a proposed referendum. Steve in Exeter, the

:08:08.:08:13.

Tory Party ignoring the rest of us., "It was Pathetic last time under

:08:13.:08:19.

John Major and it is just as pathetic now." Chris says, "We

:08:19.:08:23.

don't want a referendum words uttered by Ed Miliband and words

:08:23.:08:29.

which will return to haunt him in the next general election

:08:29.:08:34.

campaign." Ian whitely said, "Ian did better than expected. However

:08:34.:08:39.

saying we don't want an referendum is an own goal and guaranteed that

:08:39.:08:44.

the Tories will give him a pasting other it.". The politics of this

:08:44.:08:46.

are interesting for the Prime Minister because there is a number

:08:46.:08:53.

of reasons I think he has gone down this road. One is he hopes to ditch

:08:53.:09:03.
:09:03.:09:05.

UKIP. Secondly, he hopes it destabilises Labour and it is

:09:05.:09:09.

popular with his own side. If you look at what happened before PMQs

:09:09.:09:18.

when the Prime Minister entered the chamber.

:09:18.:09:28.

CHEERING I have never known I was so popular

:09:28.:09:32.

Mr Speaker! Well, you are not!

:09:32.:09:35.

We will see how long that lasts. The cheers for the Prime Minister

:09:35.:09:41.

from his own side. The Lib Dems were quiet about it. Where do we go

:09:41.:09:46.

from here? LAUGHTER

:09:46.:09:50.

We keep talking about it for a long time. I will tell you where. The

:09:50.:09:52.

the Conservatives say they have got something they can campaign about

:09:52.:09:56.

and they think that they have got Labour in a trap by saying that

:09:56.:10:01.

they are against a referendum and to my surprise not leaving wriggle

:10:02.:10:05.

room. That Ed Miliband decided not to back a referendum is not a

:10:05.:10:09.

surprise. He said to James Landale on Sunday morning on the Breakfast

:10:09.:10:13.

sofa, he said it leading up to this. What surprised me was that he

:10:13.:10:17.

didn't leave himself any wriggle room at all that just before 2015

:10:17.:10:23.

he could say, "Well, since the Germans are saying we have a treaty

:10:23.:10:27.

change, I now accept." he doesn't appear to have left himself that

:10:27.:10:37.
:10:37.:10:37.

space. The Tories will celebrate. Orchd, Orchd -- on the other hand,

:10:37.:10:43.

the what are you promising to renegotiate? What are your

:10:43.:10:47.

benchmarks for success, Prime Minister? Because we don't really

:10:47.:10:52.

trust you on this, his own party don't trust him on this issue, he

:10:52.:10:56.

would like this written down in our manifesto so you can't change your

:10:56.:10:58.

mind after the election. The question that I asked the Prime

:10:59.:11:02.

Minister at the news conference, that Ed Miliband asked at the news

:11:02.:11:06.

conference, you asked the party chairman, which is - what if you

:11:06.:11:09.

don't get the deal that you say you want? The Prime Minister did give

:11:09.:11:14.

an answer to be fair. It was a curious and by tsar nature of P --

:11:14.:11:21.

bizarre nature where Ed Miliband said he-given an -- he hadn't given

:11:21.:11:25.

an idea and David Cameron said Ed Miliband hadn't begin an answer

:11:25.:11:29.

when he had. If David Cameron goes in and effectively says, "Look, I

:11:29.:11:34.

am going to vote yes come what may." Euro-sceptics will say you

:11:34.:11:38.

have got no negotiating hand. What will happen in the capitals of

:11:38.:11:42.

Europe, they will say, "You have lost your nerve. We know you will

:11:42.:11:47.

vote yes. Reread the opinion polls are in favour and they are moving

:11:47.:11:53.

in that direction, we will give you something." Harold Wilson got

:11:53.:11:58.

something in 1975, but it won't be enough to satisfy those people who

:11:58.:12:01.

are cross with Europe. Harold Wilson had the press cheer

:12:01.:12:05.

leading for him to stay in last time including the Tory press. This

:12:05.:12:15.

won happen this time. While watching PMQsI had little elves go

:12:15.:12:19.

into into Downing Street and they have they have e-mailed to say

:12:19.:12:23.

there are indications from Downing Street to say if Europe does not

:12:23.:12:27.

take your bid for renegotiation seriously, the Prime Minister may

:12:27.:12:32.

have to say, we leave. What's revealing about that point,

:12:32.:12:36.

Andrew is the Prime Minister was asked that question directly by me

:12:36.:12:43.

and before me by Andy Bell of Channel 5, he did not say that. You

:12:43.:12:46.

asked the chairman of the Conservative Party and he didn't

:12:46.:12:52.

reply. He was asked three times on the floor of House of Commons, he

:12:52.:12:58.

didn't say it. But the moles can say what they like. The elves have

:12:58.:13:02.

done good work. I have spent the last two weeks

:13:02.:13:07.

trying to get a definitive answer from Labour on whether they would

:13:07.:13:16.

have an in/out referendum. We got it from Mr Miliband and we had it

:13:16.:13:19.

from Caroline Flint. This is the way you will end up going, isn't

:13:19.:13:24.

it? My little elves caught a straw in the wind.

:13:24.:13:32.

I will check the elves health. are out!

:13:32.:13:37.

We need more information on your elves!

:13:37.:13:40.

I want to challenge one thing, you are trying to get going or people

:13:40.:13:44.

are trying to get going the idea that political leaders only make

:13:44.:13:47.

speeches in the interests of their political parties. If that were

:13:47.:13:51.

true and this this wasn't about the future of Britain and Britain's

:13:51.:13:54.

relationship with Europe, how would you explain the Conservative Party

:13:54.:13:58.

against its own political interests, campaigning to keep Scotland in the

:13:58.:14:01.

United Kingdom? The truth is, we don't always do things which are in

:14:01.:14:05.

the party's interests. We believe that that keeping Scotland in the

:14:05.:14:07.

United Kingdom is in the United Kingdom's interests and we believe

:14:07.:14:11.

that keeping Britain in a reformed Europe is in the United Kingdom's

:14:11.:14:14.

interests and it is about what the people of this country want and

:14:14.:14:18.

giving people a choice. It makes the point that you don't always,

:14:18.:14:22.

that political parties... What would success look like to David

:14:22.:14:26.

Cameron? The issue that will dominate discussion from now until

:14:26.:14:33.

2015. I know... We are going to move on. We are not going to leave

:14:33.:14:37.

Europe altogether, however, but Nick Robinson is sadly going to

:14:37.:14:46.

leave us. Not forever. Find out who the elves are.

:14:46.:14:50.

They have to do something when they are not making Christmas gifts.

:14:50.:14:55.

Do you fin the news depressing you further? Not on this programme!

:14:55.:14:59.

George Osborne might like it if journalists focus more on job

:14:59.:15:08.

creation than job losses. The designer Wayne Hemmingway

:15:08.:15:12.

visited the BBC's new newsroom at Broadcasting House to tell us why

:15:12.:15:22.
:15:22.:15:33.

journalists should do more to This week according to some

:15:33.:15:36.

research, it is supposed to be the most miserable week of the year,

:15:36.:15:40.

peak with blue Monday. So perhaps it is time to reflect at why the

:15:40.:15:45.

main News Channels seem to help us concentrate on bad news stories and

:15:45.:15:50.

a seedier side of life. According to the BBC, three of the top ten

:15:50.:15:53.

most followed stories of 2012 were about flooding.

:15:53.:15:57.

At number seven, were the floods in September. As the heavy rain

:15:58.:16:02.

continued to fall, the inevitable happened. At number three, were the

:16:02.:16:06.

floods in July. At number two, were the floods in

:16:06.:16:11.

November. Of the other seven, two involved

:16:12.:16:17.

the murder of children, but another was the sinking of a cruise ship

:16:17.:16:21.

with multiple fatalities. And all the time has been the misery of

:16:21.:16:25.

Syria without any real developments for months and little hope. There

:16:26.:16:29.

can be no denying that these are are stories that need telling, but

:16:29.:16:33.

what bothers me is on the whole, stories that could move mankind

:16:33.:16:38.

forward and impact on our lives don't get the exposure they deserve.

:16:38.:16:42.

Here is a couple of stories you might have missed.

:16:42.:16:47.

In Japan, scientists managed to create eggs from mice stem cells,

:16:47.:16:54.

raising hope of a cure for human infer tilt. The US journal Science

:16:54.:16:59.

said it was one of the most important breakthroughs.

:16:59.:17:05.

A a bicycle has been developed from cardboard.

:17:05.:17:09.

If you search the internet for good news stories, there are various

:17:09.:17:15.

websites that that address this, but they don't do it justicement

:17:15.:17:19.

perhaps we need fewer crime correspondents and fewer war

:17:19.:17:24.

reporters and that way we might encourage people to go out and

:17:25.:17:30.

achieve more and put a smile on at on the faces of the people at its

:17:30.:17:35.

bus stop. Wayne Hemmingway joins us now. You complain about flood

:17:35.:17:40.

stories and you talked about Syria, but if seems to be -- but it seems

:17:40.:17:45.

to be what the public wants? Do the public want to see a reporter stood

:17:45.:17:49.

in their wellies with an umbrella up saying it is snowing. We know it

:17:49.:17:55.

is snowing! They do like it, you see. It is like saying that

:17:55.:18:00.

everybody likes, that tabloids sell more than broadsheets. If that's

:18:00.:18:05.

fed to people all the time, that's what they want. Surely we have got

:18:05.:18:08.

to look at things that make us happy sometimes rather than think,

:18:08.:18:14.

"I am glad I am inside in the warmth. Or I am glad I am not in

:18:14.:18:18.

that country." It it all seems to be crass and to me it seems to be

:18:18.:18:21.

getting worse. Right. One would say in the news

:18:21.:18:27.

business that those are our and finally stories. Some of the

:18:27.:18:30.

stories that lift the news and you are saying you would like more of

:18:31.:18:34.

that? And finally seems like something that Trevor McDonald

:18:34.:18:40.

would have done in the 70s or 80s. How often do you see Will Gompertz

:18:40.:18:44.

is a good good reporter. And it feels like you might as well be

:18:45.:18:49.

saying, "Here we have a light hearted story from Will about the

:18:49.:18:55.

arts." The creative industries are the second biggest driver of the UK

:18:55.:19:00.

industry. It is worth the design industry alone is worth �35 billion

:19:00.:19:05.

and when you make the creative industries, music, art, design, TV

:19:05.:19:10.

and media and it is �37 billion.. Caroline Flint do you think it is

:19:11.:19:14.

too negative? There has been a sea change in terms of some technology

:19:14.:19:19.

stories and some creative stories coming in more forcefully in the

:19:19.:19:28.

Sometimes, there is an imbalance. I think of the Olympics, and the

:19:28.:19:32.

human stories about volunteering. It is not the people are saying

:19:32.:19:35.

they want to be cushioned in a suite world where everything is

:19:35.:19:38.

right but a think people want to have some hope about what we can do

:19:39.:19:41.

it in our communities when we come together. There was a great story

:19:41.:19:45.

the other week about a breakthrough in terms of preventing breast

:19:45.:19:48.

cancer. Again, I think people want to get a balance between the things

:19:48.:19:54.

that happen. It is not about protecting politicians, there are

:19:54.:19:57.

stories out there in communities which says something about how

:19:57.:20:03.

people can find solutions. And it is about job creations. I saw that

:20:03.:20:10.

breast cancer story on the BBC. Stories about job creation, today...

:20:10.:20:16.

Lemmy make his point. There has been a big job creation story today.

:20:16.:20:20.

By and we have reported it. public will like to know that it

:20:20.:20:25.

was on the run -- running order for today's programme at one point but

:20:25.:20:28.

it dropped off. The positive news gets drowned out. It is because the

:20:28.:20:32.

Prime Minister made the most significant speech of the collision.

:20:32.:20:36.

He drowned out his own good news. There is a dangerous thing

:20:36.:20:39.

underneath this. If we do not talk about great scientific discoveries,

:20:39.:20:44.

young people are not encouraged to become scientists. If we talk about

:20:44.:20:49.

art and design, the second-biggest private of the economy, as a story

:20:49.:20:55.

for the end of the programme, we dismiss it. The renewable energy

:20:55.:20:58.

stories are always negative. It is all was against wind farms.

:20:58.:21:02.

going to give you an opportunity, Caroline Flint and Grant Shapps, to

:21:02.:21:06.

say something nice about each other. Say something nice about the

:21:06.:21:09.

Conservative Party. Conservative Party, it is good to

:21:09.:21:13.

have democratic politics in the UK but I think -- and I think we

:21:13.:21:16.

should think ourselves lucky that we can resolve things at the ballot

:21:16.:21:19.

box and not through other means. Say something nice about the Labour

:21:19.:21:27.

Party. I agree with Caroline Flint. Actually, on a small political -- I

:21:27.:21:31.

have just done a small spot or Channel 4 are saying that all

:21:31.:21:34.

politicians across a spectrum work hard for their constituents. That

:21:34.:21:36.

applies to politicians for all parties and we are fortunate to

:21:36.:21:42.

live in a democracy where we basically work together on more --

:21:42.:21:46.

on most staff. You're only here but the clashes. Great that we got that

:21:46.:21:50.

on today. By that is enough of all that stuff.

:21:50.:21:55.

It will never catch on. Returning to Europe, we have not discussed

:21:55.:21:58.

that for a four minutes or so. David Cameron did a big speech on

:21:58.:22:01.

Europe this morning and in a moment we will get business reactions, but

:22:01.:22:08.

first, here is the German Foreign Minister firing a warning shot.

:22:08.:22:14.

With such decisive issues, as the future of our common currency, we

:22:14.:22:21.

do not need less, but more integration. We share the vision of

:22:21.:22:30.

a better Europe. We need a new commitment to the principle of

:22:30.:22:39.

solidarity. Not all but everything must be decided in Brussels by

:22:39.:22:43.

Brussels. We differentiate but cherry-picking is not an option.

:22:43.:22:46.

And that was the German Foreign Minister making a statement on the

:22:46.:22:51.

day when it was announced that Britain is now Germany's biggest

:22:51.:22:57.

global trade partner. We have just overtaken France. The Trade and

:22:57.:23:04.

between the countries has soared to 153 billion euros. -- trade and

:23:04.:23:07.

business between the countries. There we go, Anglo-German business

:23:07.:23:11.

is stronger than ever and overtaking the French. Daniel

:23:11.:23:19.

Hodson is a former Chief Executive for the City institution, Liffe.

:23:19.:23:26.

And Roland Rudd is from Business for New Europe. The Prime Minister

:23:26.:23:30.

is promising to try and get some deep-seated reforms on Europe, some

:23:30.:23:34.

of which will benefit all of Europe and some specifically Britain. Then

:23:34.:23:40.

he will put that results to the British people and he hopes to stay

:23:40.:23:45.

in on this basis. What is wrong with that? Well, I like a lot of it.

:23:45.:23:48.

I like the fact that he wants to put competitiveness at the heart of

:23:49.:23:53.

the European strategy and that, rather than full integration, is

:23:53.:23:56.

what is important. I think you'll find that the French and Germans

:23:56.:24:01.

are not that keen on the new treaty. I like his talk about a single

:24:01.:24:06.

market council. We used to have an internal market council and it

:24:06.:24:16.
:24:16.:24:16.

emerged into a competitive ness Council. All his vision is good. My

:24:16.:24:20.

concern is we are placed into limbo land by the referendum pledge, the

:24:20.:24:23.

in/out pledge that could take place in five years' time. Most people

:24:23.:24:29.

and things three years away, so five years is a long time and it

:24:29.:24:31.

creates a huge amount of uncertainty. It is unsettling for

:24:31.:24:36.

business. That is the bit I would have preferred not to have heard.

:24:36.:24:41.

But rather than the first half, which I think is very encouraging.

:24:41.:24:45.

It is unsettling for business? is, but there are opportunities to

:24:45.:24:50.

accelerate the process. First of all, from the point of view of the

:24:50.:24:55.

People's pledge, which I represent, this is an encouraging move. We do

:24:55.:24:59.

not think it goes far enough. We think it is interesting to hear Ed

:24:59.:25:03.

Miliband's pronouncement in the House. Certainly, we will be

:25:03.:25:07.

working to try to get greater certainty on the Labour position.

:25:07.:25:12.

Were you want you that we would like for Labour to be in favour of

:25:12.:25:17.

the referendum. But the Labour leader said explicitly that he is

:25:17.:25:22.

not going to do that. That is true, but the point is that we have 20

:25:22.:25:30.

MPs off all shades -- of all shades signed up for pledge. And we

:25:30.:25:36.

believe that there are many more who will sign the pledge. There are

:25:36.:25:40.

indications this morning that there will be considerable pressure on

:25:40.:25:45.

the Labour side. Do you want an in/out referendum now? No, but we

:25:45.:25:49.

want to make sure that the campaign is going to be long and drawn out,

:25:49.:25:56.

but that it is a campaign which starts now. Based on what? In terms

:25:56.:25:58.

of David Cameron and the negotiations, people have a right

:25:58.:26:02.

to know the programme of change that he will go forward on. And

:26:02.:26:08.

therefore, what does success look like, to prevent an in/out

:26:08.:26:11.

referendum or enable the Prime Minister to come clean about how he

:26:11.:26:16.

will vote. That is not there at the moment. Going back to Roland Rudd,

:26:16.:26:22.

decent again -- you said we were last on the programme that you did

:26:22.:26:26.

not think the French and Germans want to have any more integration.

:26:26.:26:34.

Francois Hollande and Angela Merkel agreed last night to unveil a new

:26:34.:26:37.

programme of fiscal and monetary integration in May of this year in

:26:37.:26:43.

time for the June council. It is true that they want to see the

:26:43.:26:46.

progress they have made on stabilising the euro continue. And

:26:46.:26:50.

we will see other measures throughout the year that underpin

:26:50.:26:55.

that stability. You must not forget, one year ago at this conference

:26:55.:26:59.

people were saying, when will the euro break-up? Now it is conceived

:26:59.:27:06.

wisdom that it will be fine. It has passed a worse. -- past its worst.

:27:06.:27:12.

Angela Merkel is calling Mr Holland Francois. That is so close they are,

:27:12.:27:18.

first name terms. I think it is a much better relationship. Over the

:27:18.:27:22.

weekend, the French Foreign Secretary said that we're going to

:27:22.:27:26.

see more measures to ensure that the relationship continues. They do

:27:26.:27:29.

not necessarily want another treaty change for some we will see about

:27:29.:27:34.

that. Roland Rudd, thank you for joining us. Very briefly, would you

:27:34.:27:38.

be happy to see repatriation of powers? Do you think we should stay

:27:38.:27:44.

in? What I say is that I want an in/out referendum. We know that it

:27:44.:27:48.

but answer my question. The answer is as Caroline says. We need to

:27:48.:27:51.

know where the line in the sand is. It is part of a process taking

:27:51.:27:55.

place now. Well, we begun a programme without getting answers

:27:55.:27:58.

so why should we end it differently?

:27:59.:28:02.

And Astrid was the clue to our Guess The Year contest, but did you

:28:02.:28:07.

remember when it happened? -- Maastricht was the clue.

:28:07.:28:13.

Yes, it was 1992. Press the buzzer.

:28:13.:28:20.

Clive Brown of Cheshire. Well done. OK, that is it. Thank you to all

:28:20.:28:25.

our guests and special thanks to a our two guests who have been here

:28:25.:28:30.

throughout. The One o'clock News will be starting on BBC One but we

:28:30.:28:33.

will be on at 12:15pm tomorrow, slightly later because of the

:28:33.:28:38.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn are joined by Conservative party chairman, Grant Shapps and shadow energy secretary, Caroline Flint. Plus the latest analysis of David Cameron's big speech on Europe with reaction from former Liberal Democrat leader, Charles Kennedy. Also on the programme, fashion designer, Wayne Hemmingway on why we need some good news. The Guess the Year competition closes at 12.30 during the live broadcast of this programme.


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