30/01/2013 Daily Politics


30/01/2013

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with live coverage of Prime Minister's Questions and the latest political news and debate. With Conservative MP Mark Harper and Labour MP Chris Leslie.


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LineFromTo

Morning, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Are we heading for mission creep in North Africa? The Prime Minister

:00:41.:00:44.

flies to Algeria after PMQs today. Yesterday, the government announced

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that hundreds of British troops are going to the region to support the

:00:47.:00:53.

French-led forces who are trying to drive Islamists from northern Mali.

:00:53.:00:56.

Alex Salmond wants to pop the question. But what should the

:00:56.:01:01.

question be? We'll be talking referendum semantics.

:01:01.:01:05.

Shock news. The streets of Britain are not paved with gold. We'll be

:01:05.:01:09.

asking how you deter migrants from Bulgaria and Romania.

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And defeating homophobia. The human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell

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tells us how we should tackle the so-called Muslim patrols of East

:01:16.:01:26.
:01:26.:01:26.

London. Victimisation of Muslim people is wrong, so, too, is the

:01:26.:01:36.
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victimisation of gay people. It should be Islamist, I'm not sure

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he pronounced it correctly? On Tuesday it both ways? -- can't you

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say it both ways? All that and more coming up in the next 90 minutes of

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Great British TV, and joining us for the duration are two Great

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British MPs. Representing one of the ancient woodlands of England,

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the Forest of Dean, it's the Immigration Minister Mark Harper.

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And representing part of the ancient city of Nottingham, famed

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for its links to Robin Hood and last year named transport city of

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the year, Labour Treasury spokesman Chris Leslie. Welcome to you both.

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What is transport city of the year? We have trams... Manchester has

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trams. In it is very green unsustainable. I like Nottingham.

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Some good promotion for the City of Nottingham!

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Now, David Cameron is to visit Algeria later today in the wake of

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the hostage crisis, and he's going to be talking about the importance

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of that country in what he's called a generational struggle against al-

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Qaeda in North Africa. Yesterday we learned that the UK is sending 330

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military personnel to neighbouring Mali and other West African

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countries to support French forces and to help train the Malian army.

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Number 10 is emphasising that troops will not have a combat role,

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and will be there temporarily. One MP who's warned we could be sucked

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into another long-running conflict is Labour's Paul Flynn, he's with

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us now. Before I come to you, Paul, Mark Harper, the Prime Minister

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said there would be tens of troops, it is now hundreds? There up to 40

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troops to be part of the EU training mission, a headquarters or

:03:18.:03:23.

training role. The extra troops announced yesterday, we will look

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at providing up to 200 troops to do training for the Anglophone West

:03:29.:03:34.

African countries that are putting together a force. Again, that is a

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training role. Who will protect those military personnel out there?

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We have said we are looking at providing up to 200, one of the

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things being worked through is the details now, there will be talks

:03:49.:03:51.

with the deputy national security adviser and the other countries in

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the region to thrash out details. It has not been confirmed that

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French troops will be doing the protection? Our troops will not

:04:01.:04:06.

have to protect our advisers? troops will be there in a training

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role, my understanding is we will not be in a protection role. Should

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we be there? I think so. Looking at that region, look at what happened

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in Algeria. There were British and other European nationals working,

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they were threatened and, sadly, some lost their lives because of

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terrorists operating in part of the area where the state did not have

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controlled. We were affected, whether we like it or not. Algeria

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is a big economy, a big gas producer, it is important we have

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proper security. Surely you don't object to the fact that Britain is

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offering a support role in a region where British personnel, Brits

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working in the region, could be threatened? It all sounds very

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plausible and seductive, very much as in 2006. We were told our

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soldiers would only be in Helmand province for a couple of years, do

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some reconstruction, no shots would be fired. At that time we had lost

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two thought it -- soldiers in combat, having been in Afghanistan

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for five years, now it is 440. There is this continuous bloodshed

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in Africa and we will be sucked into another war and the public are,

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rightly, wary. We have been in two wars, 179 troops lost in Iraq to

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replace one rotten government with another, and 440 troops have died

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in Afghanistan and at the end we will possibly have a return to

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Taliban rule. Are you saying no support staff to go there from

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Britain? I think this is one war which is nothing whatsoever to do

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with us. It was right to go to Sierra Leone and Kosovo as well, I

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think. We can't let -- pretend we are the policemen for the world and

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whisk billions of pounds and lives. Some of those conflicts have gone

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on for 20 years, in the Congo and Sudan. We can't pretend we have a

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responsibility and it is ludicrous to suggest that the people fighting

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in Mali are Al-Qaeda. They are Nationalists with a particular

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agenda. We will appear to have a victory but they will disappear

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into the population and come back as terrorists. Chris Leslie, do you

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agree with the worry about mission creep? You have to be clear about

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what this deployment is and what its terms are. Paul has a point...

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It was fairly clearly set out to... It is very easy to get into these

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situations and very difficult to know what the exit would be. These

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are so far non-combat training roles, that is a very good

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contribution. That does not mean there is no risk involved. You have

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to ask the questions about who will be safeguarding those troops, the

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people involved in this. From an opposition point of view we need to

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ask very searching questions of the Government. How far will your

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support go? Are you saying that that's it, the numbers that have

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gone out now in terms of support, Labour won't go any further?

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Hearing revelations about the situation and almost a daily basis

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now. I don't agree with Paul entirely, he takes a very

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principled view on some of these things, historically, in relation

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to other conflicts. From time to time, Major developed countries

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have a responsibility to safeguard the rest of the international

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community. That said, we have to be crystal clear about our role and

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also have an eye on the exit. years ago I wrote to Tony Blair and

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said if we going to the war in Iraq, without solving the

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Israeli/Palestine problem, we will inflame Muslim opinion through the

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world, and that is what we have done. But we are not doing this by

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ourselves. We en masse acting as the world's policeman, this is part

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of an international operation. -- we are not acting as the world's

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policeman. It will be supported by the UN and the EU. It could go on

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for a long time, couldn't it? is Britain playing a leadership

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role with our partners. The Prime Minister's point was clear. The

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idea that Britain and our personnel are safer by just abdicating

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responsibility and saying it is nothing to do with us, that is a

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false option. That is what it was said about Afghanistan, Gordon

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Brown said that all the time, it makes the streets safe a year.

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we had not gone into Afghanistan, Marjah mat. Doing nothing is a

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choice you have to make. You can't just say we will pull up the

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drawbridge and nothing in the rest of the world will affect us.

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Afghanistan has been going back to the 13th century. Prime Minister's

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love to be war leaders - Thatcher loved it, Blair loved it, so does

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Cameron. I think that is unfair. Prime ministers have to take

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difficult decisions about putting soldiers in harm's way and about

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people who might have to lose their life. I don't think any Prime

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Minister relishes committing troops to military action. We do it where

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we think it is essential for the national interest. That is what

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David Cameron said. None of these featured in the Strategic Defence

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Review. We are in a situation where the government are being driven by

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their fiscal austerity plans, that is affecting our capability.

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can't predict these things, though. No, but you need a certain amount

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of flexibility in our defence forces to cope with unforeseen

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eventualities. Should there be a vote on our involvement in Mali at

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all? The Foreign Secretary told me a fortnight ago that there would be

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a debate and a vote in Parliament, and they ignored that. The Prime

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Minister has been very opened, he made a statement about what

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happened in Nigeria. At the moment we are doing a training role, we

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will have to see how things... There is a strong feeling

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throughout the Commons that this is a war too far. On that note, we

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will end it, thank you. The people living in Scotland will get a vote

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in late 2014 to decide if they want to leave the United Kingdom and

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become an independent state. Sounds a simple enough proposition, but

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the exact wording of the question has become a matter of political

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You'd think it would be a simple matter, but as any pollster will

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tell you, it's not just what you ask, it's how you ask it. The

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question Alex Salmond wants to ask the Scottish electorate is, do you

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agree that Scotland should be an independent country? But today the

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body that regulates voting and party funding, the Electoral

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Commission, has said that this question is leading. Instead it

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suggests that the question should be, should Scotland be an

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independent country? However, the Electoral Commission has no legal

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power to enforce its ruling and in the end it will be the Scottish

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Parliament, with its nationalist majority, which will have the final

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say. However, the SNP Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has said

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that her government would have to find a very good reason to ignore

:11:28.:11:38.
:11:38.:11:40.

the Commission's advice. Joining us now from ICM Research,

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we have an expert on how to ask a question. They ask even more than

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me, every year, and probably get more answers! Welcome, Martin Boon.

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Questions, I am right in thinking that how they are phrased can make

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a difference to the outcome of a referendum? I think there is some

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evidence suggesting that. There was a very influential piece of work

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done by Lord Ashcroft at this time last year in which he tested three

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versions of a potential Scottish referendum question, and there was

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an eight point movements depending on which version was used. The way

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that you phrase individual questions can have a material

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impact on the outcome. Electoral Commission looked at the

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proposed question, I think it was proposed by the Scottish

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nationalists, which was, do you agree that Scotland should be

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independent? They want that changed too, should Scotland be

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independent? What is the significance of the difference?

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think the commission should be commended on their decision. I

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think there were many voices, including my own, which criticised

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the original Scottish question simply because it excluded two

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words, or disagree? To my mind, that made the question fail the

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test of being fair and balanced. The commission have looked at

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different versions of the question and have come up with a

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recommendation. It seems to me to be very clear, it is a short, it

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would be difficult to take a view from a technical perspective that

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many people could be confused by what it is trying to get through. I

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think it passes all the tests that a researcher would apply to a good

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question wording. Other examples from around the world are of a

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referendum in which the outcome was determined to by the manner of the

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question? I'm not an expert in referendums from other countries,

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you'd probably need to talk to an academic about that, but I think it

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has been the case that many referendums have been criticised

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for the questions used. I don't doubt, without having material

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evidence, but I don't doubt that outcomes have been at least

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partially influenced by a bad question framing.

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Find you very much Martin. Let's go now to Edinburgh and to Annabelle

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Ewing, a member of the Scottish parliament and a member of the

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referendum committee of the Scottish Parliament. Welcome. Do

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you accept these findings? Absolutely. We are absolutely

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delighted with the findings, including on the question, should

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Scotland be an independent country, yes or no? I think it could not be

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more straightforward a question, we are delighted with the findings

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today of the Electoral Commission. It is not the question you proposed,

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but you are delighted? It is a refining of the question that we

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had proposed, our initial question has been tested, the electoral

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commission have refined that and we are delighted with the final

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conclusion recommendation which is, should Scotland be an independent

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country, yes or no? We are delighted. The commission said your

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original question was leading and not neutral. I understand what they

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said was that it was a fair question, it was easily understood,

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and there was no evidence of any deliberate intention of partiality,

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but nevertheless they felt that the question they have now recommended,

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should Scotland be an independent country, yes or no, was a fair and

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straightforward question. We are absolutely delighted to accept that.

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Are you just putting a brave face on this? It is not the question you

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wanted. I am delighted with the question, should Scotland be an

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independent country, yes or no? I think it is very straightforward. I

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will mention that the electoral commission recommended that there

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be discussions as to what would happen in the event of a vote

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either yes or no, and in the event of a "yes" vote there should be a

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clear process agreed as to transition talks and so forth with

:16:10.:16:14.

the UK government. That was a recommendation today. Another

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recommendation that the SNP are very happy to accept. I think it

:16:18.:16:28.
:16:28.:16:36.

now begs the question, what is the We are happy to accept all the key

:16:36.:16:40.

recommendations. We wanted a level playing field on the spending limit,

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and that has been recommended by the Electoral Commission. We had

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concerns about spending restraint, particularly in these difficult

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economic times, but we are happy that the Electoral Commission has

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recommended a level playing field in terms of spending limits. We are

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happy to accept that recommendation and the other recommendations. The

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question now is, will the UK government to do the same? Could

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you explain to our viewers, how is it that since Alex Salmond has

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launched the yester independence campaign in May, the support for

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the union has gone through the roof? Well, it would depend what

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pull you were looking at. Every poll. The Sunday Times poll... I

:17:29.:17:33.

can't think of a single poll, could you name a single respectable poll

:17:33.:17:43.
:17:43.:17:44.

since May that has shown support for a referendum has arisen? G&T

:17:44.:17:50.

independence movement did not -- the anti independence movement did

:17:50.:17:57.

not achieve above 50% in that poll. We now need to put forward the

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arguments for Scotland controlling her own affairs. It would be a

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debate won on the arguments. We have the arguments on our side, and

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I am confident that we will gain the support of the people of

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Scotland in the referendum in response to the question, should

:18:15.:18:18.

Scotland be an independent country? And on the issue of substance,

:18:18.:18:23.

which is Scotland's position in the European Union, but any Yes vote in

:18:23.:18:27.

a referendum, do you now accept, contrary to what your party had

:18:27.:18:32.

been claimed until late last year, that it is by no means a foregone

:18:32.:18:39.

conclusion that Scotland would automatically stayed in the EU?

:18:39.:18:41.

light of the Prime Minister's announcement last week on that

:18:41.:18:45.

issue, we have seen that the only way for Scotland to be assured of

:18:45.:18:49.

remaining a member state of the European Union is to vote Yes in

:18:49.:18:55.

the referendum. But that was not my question, as you well know. Your

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party told us that there was no question that if Scotland went

:19:00.:19:04.

independent, it would automatically stay in the European Union. No

:19:04.:19:08.

debate, no problem. Do you now accept that that was not true and

:19:08.:19:13.

that there is at the very least a major question mark over Scotland's

:19:13.:19:18.

status, post-independence? It has always been clear that Scotland

:19:18.:19:22.

would negotiate its terms as an independent member state of the EU

:19:22.:19:28.

from the basis of being currently a member state. We have been part of

:19:28.:19:34.

the European Union for 40 years. But you are not a member state.

:19:34.:19:39.

Scotland is not a member state of the European Union.

:19:39.:19:44.

Mr Barroso, the president, will not see you. Has he seen you yet in

:19:44.:19:51.

Edinburgh to talk to you? Scotland is of course part of a member state.

:19:51.:19:56.

But you want to change that! have been part of the European

:19:56.:20:03.

Union for some 40 years. As for the president of the commission, they

:20:03.:20:07.

have made it clear this week that they don't take a particular view

:20:07.:20:11.

on Scotland at the moment, because no request for an opinion has been

:20:11.:20:15.

made by the current member state government, the UK. We have made it

:20:15.:20:19.

clear that we would be happy to make a joint approach to the

:20:19.:20:22.

European Commission with the UK government to obtain a legal

:20:22.:20:26.

opinion, but the UK government had refused to do that. It is a

:20:26.:20:30.

question you should put to them. And I will, but it is also because

:20:30.:20:35.

Mr Barroso will not see you. He and the foreign minister of Spain have

:20:35.:20:38.

said, if you go independent and you want to be a member of the EU, get

:20:39.:20:44.

to the back of the queue. Having worked in Brussels for many years,

:20:44.:20:48.

I don't think that is how it would pan out. We are remember of the

:20:48.:20:58.

European Union. But you are not a member of the European Union.

:20:58.:21:04.

Scotland is not a member. territory of Scotland is part of

:21:04.:21:12.

the European Union. That is because it is part of the United Kingdom,

:21:12.:21:19.

and you want to change that. That is the reason for your referendum.

:21:19.:21:22.

Well, it is clear in terms of what is happening south of the border

:21:22.:21:25.

that the only certainty on this issue is for the people of Scotland

:21:25.:21:30.

to vote yes, because otherwise, there is a danger that the

:21:30.:21:33.

political machinations south of the border will take Scotland out of

:21:33.:21:38.

the European Union. I think most Scots would prefer to be inside the

:21:38.:21:42.

club rather than outside, and that is a position which will become

:21:42.:21:48.

clearer in the months ahead. It is always good to be in the club.

:21:48.:21:51.

Let me ask you, why doesn't the British Government go to Brussels

:21:52.:21:56.

on Mr Barroso's invitation and establish this once and for all?

:21:56.:22:02.

What would the legal position of Scotland B, post-independence?

:22:02.:22:07.

think it is clear. It is clear that Scotland would not be a member

:22:07.:22:11.

state. It would have to apply. Annabel did not want to go there

:22:11.:22:15.

because if it applies, it would have to join the euro and it would

:22:15.:22:19.

have to join the Schengen regime. That would mean we would have DA

:22:19.:22:22.

border controls and immigration controls between England and

:22:22.:22:32.
:22:32.:22:32.

Scotland, which would be in nobody's interest. The Scots could

:22:32.:22:40.

not negotiate. They would have to negotiate that like all member

:22:40.:22:45.

states? It is a complicated issue. Some legal authorities say Scotland

:22:45.:22:51.

should and would remain part of the EU without a separate negotiation.

:22:51.:22:55.

A letter from Mr Barroso is not enough. Is it not incumbent on the

:22:55.:22:58.

British Government to go to Brussels, raised it with the legal

:22:58.:23:03.

authorities and get a definitive opinion? No, I think it is the

:23:03.:23:07.

Scottish government that wants to have an independent Scotland. It is

:23:07.:23:12.

up to them to explain what would happen. But Brussels will not talk

:23:12.:23:15.

to them because they are not a nation state member. You are.

:23:15.:23:19.

need to set out what they think would happen if there was a yes

:23:19.:23:22.

vote in the referendum and the people of Scotland decided to be

:23:22.:23:27.

independent. It is for them to answer these questions. A but

:23:27.:23:31.

Brussels will not speak to them. will set out what we think the

:23:31.:23:36.

benefits of Scotland being part of the UK are. She can't answer those

:23:36.:23:41.

questions. Are you happy with the question now? Are well, they have

:23:41.:23:45.

to accept the Electoral Commission's view. You can't be a

:23:45.:23:52.

referee and a player in the campaign. But it is a bit of a slap

:23:52.:23:57.

in the face for the SNP. But she was delighted.

:23:57.:24:01.

A knowledge of history is everything, according to Mark

:24:01.:24:05.

Harper's team at the Home Office. They have just revised the UK

:24:05.:24:12.

citizenship test to focus on what they call Britain's greats. Nelson,

:24:12.:24:16.

Churchill, Pippa Middleton. So can you integrate yourself into British

:24:17.:24:21.

society by answering our own political history test? Yes, it is

:24:21.:24:25.

time for guess the year again. Our prize is more valuable than a mere

:24:25.:24:30.

British passport, more worthy than a work permit. And Our Price is

:24:31.:24:34.

more patriotic. What could be more traditional than a beverage utensil

:24:34.:24:40.

from Britain's finest institution, the BBC, filled with Britain's

:24:40.:24:45.

finest Wood, invention, T. No matter that the Chinese claim to

:24:45.:24:50.

have got there first. It is the drink that built an empire, and you

:24:50.:24:54.

can be part of our great island story and so are but a thousand

:24:54.:24:58.

years of history, one sip at a time. But only if you passed the Daily

:24:58.:25:04.

Politics citizenship test, otherwise known as guess the year.

:25:04.:25:09.

We will remind you how to enter in a minute, but let's see if you can

:25:09.:25:19.
:25:19.:25:24.

It is an insult to the unemployed to suggest that a man who doesn't

:25:24.:25:34.
:25:34.:25:34.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 51 seconds

:25:34.:26:25.

have a job is likely to break the To be in with a chance of winning a

:26:25.:26:30.

Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special quiz e-mail

:26:30.:26:35.

address. You concede the full terms and conditions for guess the year

:26:35.:26:44.

on our website. It is coming up to midday. Let's

:26:44.:26:54.
:26:54.:26:54.

look at Big Ben. Our studio clock is usually wrong! Prime Minister's

:26:54.:26:58.

Questions are on their way. The BBC's deputy political editor is

:26:58.:27:03.

here, fresh from his starring role in the Marshall. David Cameron is

:27:03.:27:08.

off to Africa after PMQs. First, let's take a gander at this little

:27:08.:27:17.

number from the Taiwanese outfit, Next Media Animation.

:27:17.:27:21.

Tory leaders are dissatisfied with David Cameron's leadership and the

:27:21.:27:25.

drubbing the Conservative Party is taking in the polls. According to

:27:25.:27:32.

media reports, millionaire MP Adam has sensed an opportunity and is

:27:32.:27:42.
:27:42.:27:49.

putting too at David Cameron. -- plotting to oust David Cameron.

:27:49.:27:53.

A vote of no confidence would require support from 46 party

:27:54.:28:03.
:28:04.:28:12.

Is there an unannounced third candidate? Does anyone in Taiwan

:28:12.:28:22.
:28:22.:28:23.

know what that was about? They are quite obsessed. Why can we at the

:28:23.:28:27.

BBC not afford graphics like that? Instead, it is like Blue Peter 30

:28:27.:28:32.

years ago here. Nothing wrong with Blue Peter. I have got a Blue Peter

:28:32.:28:39.

badge. Is there a stalking horse? will not answer that until you tell

:28:39.:28:44.

me what you have a Blue Peter badge for? I gave an interview to Blue

:28:44.:28:49.

Peter ones, and they gave me a badge instead of a fee. I and who

:28:49.:28:57.

did the interview, the dog? there a stalking horse? There are

:28:57.:29:01.

Conservative MPs who are unhappy with David Cameron. Many of them

:29:01.:29:04.

have been unhappy with him for a long time and are thinking about

:29:04.:29:09.

what may or may not happened after 2015. The new fact is that there is

:29:09.:29:13.

a growing number of MPs who are beginning to think it is possible

:29:13.:29:17.

the Conservative Party might not win the next general election. They

:29:17.:29:20.

are coming together and thinking about what might happen after 2015,

:29:20.:29:25.

so people are jockeying for position. If I understand that Mr

:29:25.:29:32.

Cameron is not a good block with favours among the Tory backbenchers.

:29:32.:29:36.

But with the referendum speech, he made them happier than they have

:29:36.:29:40.

been for a long while. So why would anybody announce a threat to his

:29:40.:29:44.

leadership just when he has done something they have been desperate

:29:44.:29:50.

for him to do for ages? It seems an inopportune moment. Even the

:29:50.:29:53.

closest supporters of the calendar would have meant that last weekend

:29:53.:30:01.

was not the best moment for this to become public. That is what we call

:30:01.:30:08.

British understatement. However, the argument is this. When David

:30:08.:30:11.

Cameron ceases to be leader of the Conservative Party, they don't want

:30:11.:30:17.

it to be an automatic Boris Sheerin. They want a potential candidate

:30:17.:30:21.

from the back benches who is not tainted by coalition, who is not an

:30:21.:30:25.

Old Etonian, who has a good rags- to-riches narrative. That is my

:30:25.:30:33.

strongest pitch for what some MPs believe. But why it Adam, who has

:30:33.:30:39.

never been in the Cabinet and is unknown in the country. Why has it

:30:39.:30:43.

coalesced around him? We are talking a small group of people

:30:43.:30:53.
:30:53.:30:55.

here. A handful is the best description. I think the reason it

:30:55.:31:01.

has come around him is because he ticks those boxes. He is not

:31:01.:31:06.

coalition, he has a rags-to-riches narrative story. I hate to use this

:31:06.:31:11.

phrase, but some people do - the colour of his skin, there are

:31:11.:31:21.
:31:21.:31:24.

references to Obama and all those I had meetings with ministerial

:31:24.:31:27.

colleagues and others, and in addition to my duties in the house

:31:27.:31:29.

I will have further such meetings today.

:31:29.:31:34.

Is it right that a mother in my constituency may not, because of

:31:34.:31:40.

his Government's bedroom tax confirmed by his minister, be able

:31:40.:31:45.

to provide for her son serving in the armed forces a whole MORI

:31:45.:31:49.

bedroom when he returns? reforms to housing benefit we are

:31:49.:31:53.

putting in place, and I would gladly look at the case that the

:31:53.:31:56.

honourable lady says, but the reforms we are putting in place

:31:56.:32:01.

have a very clear principle at their heart. There are many people

:32:01.:32:04.

and thought -- in private rented accommodation who do not have

:32:04.:32:09.

Housing Benefit, who cannot afford extra bedrooms, we need to get

:32:09.:32:14.

control of housing benefit. We are spending �23 billion on housing

:32:14.:32:20.

benefit and we have to get that under control.

:32:20.:32:24.

Does my right honourable friend welcome today's news that

:32:24.:32:30.

university applications for UK universities are up 3.5% this year,

:32:30.:32:35.

their highest ever level for disadvantaged students as well?

:32:35.:32:39.

makes a very important point about the figures released this morning.

:32:39.:32:44.

After all of the concerns expressed about the new way of paying for

:32:44.:32:47.

university finance reducing the number of students applying to

:32:47.:32:52.

university, the number of 18 year- olds has gone up and it is now

:32:52.:32:57.

level with where it was in 2011, which is higher than any year under

:32:57.:33:05.

the last Labour government. Miliband!

:33:05.:33:09.

In October, the Prime Minister told me that when it came to the economy,

:33:09.:33:14.

I quote, the good news will keep coming. After last week's growth

:33:14.:33:19.

figures it obviously has not. What is his excuse this time? A as the

:33:19.:33:22.

right honourable gentleman nose, GDP in the third quarter of last

:33:22.:33:29.

year went up by 0.9%, and as forecast by the Office of budget

:33:29.:33:32.

runs -- Office of Budget Responsibility 8 fell in the 4th

:33:32.:33:38.

quarter by 0.3%. Only Honourable Members opposite could it cheer for

:33:38.:33:41.

that news. I think that honourable gentleman should listen to the

:33:41.:33:45.

Governor of the Bank of England who said, our economy is recovering

:33:45.:33:50.

more slowly than we might wish, but we are moving in the right

:33:50.:33:56.

direction. The fall in unemployment numbers clearly backs that up.

:33:56.:34:00.

an extraordinarily complacent answer from the Prime Minister. Let

:34:00.:34:05.

us understand the scale of his failure on growth. They told us in

:34:05.:34:11.

autumn 2010 mad by now the economy would have grown by over 5%. Can

:34:11.:34:16.

the Prime Minister tell us by how much the economy has actually grown

:34:16.:34:20.

since then? There is nothing complacent about this Government,

:34:20.:34:24.

that is why we are cutting corporation tax, investing in

:34:24.:34:32.

enterprise zones, a million ends up -- internships have started. -- a

:34:32.:34:36.

million apprenticeships have started. There will be 1 million

:34:36.:34:40.

new private sector jobs. In the last year alone, half a million

:34:41.:34:46.

private sector jobs, the fastest rate of job creation since 1989. Do

:34:46.:34:50.

we need to do more to get the banks lending and businesses investing?

:34:50.:34:57.

Yes, and under this Government we will. Just for once, why doesn't he

:34:57.:35:01.

give a straight answer to a straight question? Growth was not

:35:01.:35:06.

5%, as he forecast, but the part- time Chancellor is about to give

:35:06.:35:10.

him some advice, I have to say to the part-time Chancellor you should

:35:10.:35:14.

spend more time worrying about our economy and less time worrying

:35:14.:35:19.

about diverting high-speed rail routes away from his constituency.

:35:19.:35:26.

We have had Flat lining... He shakes his head, but what does his

:35:26.:35:36.
:35:36.:35:38.

council leader say? Your MP... Ennis, you are a distinguished,

:35:38.:35:42.

practising barrister. You wouldn't have behaved like that in the

:35:42.:35:48.

courts, don't behave like that in this chamber. Calm yourself and be

:35:48.:35:58.
:35:58.:35:58.

quiet, ma'am. Mr Ed Miliband. Growth was not 5% but 0.4%, and a

:35:58.:36:02.

Flat lining economy means that living standards are falling. His

:36:02.:36:07.

excuse is that other countries have done worse than us, can he confirm

:36:07.:36:12.

that since the spending review more than two years ago, out of 20 major

:36:12.:36:19.

G20 economies, Britain has been 18th out of 20 for growth? On high-

:36:19.:36:24.

speed rail, which goes right through the middle of the

:36:24.:36:27.

Chancellor's constituency, we are proud of the fact that this

:36:27.:36:31.

Government has taken the decision to invest, just as this Government

:36:31.:36:35.

is building CrossRail, the biggest construction plan anywhere in

:36:35.:36:42.

Europe. He asks about other European economies, the fact is if

:36:42.:36:47.

you listen to the European Union, the OECD or the IMF, they all point

:36:47.:36:51.

out that Britain will have the fastest growth of any major economy

:36:51.:36:56.

in Europe this year. I have to last, what is his plan? It is a three-

:36:56.:37:01.

point plan - more spending, more borrowing, more debt, exactly the

:37:01.:37:05.

things that got us into this mess in the first place. We have got

:37:05.:37:10.

used to that kind of answer from the Prime Minister. He promises a

:37:10.:37:15.

better tomorrow and tomorrow never comes. That is the reality. He

:37:15.:37:20.

could not deny the fact that we are 18th out of 20 countries, worse

:37:20.:37:26.

than the USA, Canada, Germany, France. That is because of his

:37:26.:37:30.

decisions. Last week the chief economist of the IMF said this, if

:37:30.:37:35.

things look bad at the beginning of 2013, which they do, and he was

:37:35.:37:39.

talking about the UK, then there should be a reassessment of fiscal

:37:39.:37:45.

policy. After two years of no growth, can the Prime Minister tell

:37:45.:37:49.

us whether he thinks he should do anything differently in the next

:37:49.:37:54.

two years? First of all, I would say he should listen to the

:37:54.:38:00.

managing director of the IMF, who said this: When I think back myself

:38:00.:38:07.

to make 2010 when the UK deficit was a 20% - when you were in

:38:07.:38:12.

Arthur's! - and I tried to imagine what the situation would be like

:38:12.:38:14.

today it knows such fiscal consolidation programme had been

:38:14.:38:20.

decided, I shiver. That is what the IMF says about the plans of the

:38:20.:38:25.

last Labour government. He raises the issue of growth. Order. It is

:38:26.:38:29.

not acceptable to shouts down either the Prime Minister or the

:38:29.:38:32.

leader of the opposition, and the public have a very low opinion of

:38:32.:38:37.

that kind of behaviour. Let's hear the questions and the answers.

:38:37.:38:43.

Prime Minister. He raises the issue of America and American Growth, the

:38:43.:38:46.

fact is that I our recession was longer and deeper than the

:38:46.:38:50.

recession in America. The biggest banking bust was not an American

:38:50.:38:56.

bank, it was a British bank. He may want to talk about tomorrow because

:38:56.:38:59.

he does not want to talk about yesterday when the two people

:38:59.:39:03.

responsible for the regulation of the banks and the performance of

:39:03.:39:06.

the economy are sitting right there on the opposition benches.

:39:06.:39:12.

Once again, a completely incomprehensible answer, Mr Speaker.

:39:12.:39:16.

Basically, the answer you did not want to give is that it is more of

:39:16.:39:21.

the same, more of the same. That is not working. He mentions borrowing,

:39:21.:39:27.

he is borrowing �212 billion more than he promised. Last week he told

:39:27.:39:32.

the country in a party political broadcast that he was, I quote,

:39:32.:39:39.

paying down Britain's debts. But the debt is rising and he has

:39:39.:39:43.

borrowed �7.2 billion more so far this year compared to last year.

:39:43.:39:48.

One to just admit it is hurting but it just is not working? -- one to

:39:48.:39:54.

just admit? If he thinks there is a problem with borrowing, why does he

:39:54.:39:59.

want to borrow more? The Institute for Fiscal Studies says that

:39:59.:40:05.

Labour's plans would basically adds �200 billion to Britain's borrowing.

:40:05.:40:09.

He has made absolutely no apology for the mess they made of the

:40:09.:40:13.

economy, his whole message to the British people is give the car keys

:40:13.:40:17.

back to the people who crashed the car in the first place. They didn't

:40:17.:40:21.

regulate the banks, they built up the debts, we are clearing up the

:40:21.:40:29.

mess that he made! He is borrowing for failure, that is the reality.

:40:29.:40:33.

And he is borrowing more for failure, that is the reality of his

:40:33.:40:37.

record will stop here is the truth, they said they would balance the

:40:37.:40:42.

books, they hadn't. They said there would be growth, there isn't. They

:40:42.:40:47.

said Britain is out of the danger zone, it is not. Hasn't you run out

:40:47.:40:51.

of excuses for the fact that, on his watch, because of his decisions,

:40:51.:40:57.

this is the slowest recovery for 100 years? He talks about failure,

:40:57.:41:00.

we are dealing with year after year of failure from the party opposite.

:41:00.:41:05.

They did not regulate the banks, they built up the debts, they had a

:41:05.:41:09.

totally unbalanced economy. What is happening under this Government is

:41:09.:41:14.

a million private sector jobs, unemployment down, the fastest rate

:41:14.:41:19.

of business creation in recent history, we are clearing up the

:41:19.:41:22.

mess they made. They are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past

:41:22.:41:26.

because they have not learned the lessons, which is why the British

:41:26.:41:30.

public will never trust them with the economy again. Mr Andrew

:41:30.:41:35.

Griffiths! Like the Prime Minister, I want to

:41:35.:41:43.

see a fresh settlement in Europe. German beer drinkers pay 13 times

:41:43.:41:47.

more duty than British drinkers, Spanish drinkers... British

:41:47.:41:51.

drinkers pay nine times more duty than Spanish drinkers and 10 times

:41:51.:41:58.

more than Italian drinkers. Will he take the Chancellor for a pint and

:41:58.:42:03.

do something for British pubs and British publicans? My honourable

:42:03.:42:09.

friend quite rightly speaks up for Burton, and I remember visiting

:42:09.:42:13.

that great brewery with him during the last election. I am sure the

:42:13.:42:17.

Chancellor will have listened very carefully to what he said. It is

:42:17.:42:21.

very important we also tried to support the pub trade in our

:42:21.:42:26.

country, and the government has plans for that as well.

:42:26.:42:31.

Thousands of my Blackpool constituents in poorly insulated

:42:31.:42:34.

homes fear sky-high cold-weather bills. The Government Green deal

:42:34.:42:39.

has 7% interest charges with only five households signed up for it.

:42:39.:42:47.

How has the Prime Minister achieve this fiasco? I hope he will welcome

:42:47.:42:50.

the Green deal, it gives house holds the opportunity to cut bills

:42:50.:42:55.

and costs without absolutely no upfront costs. He should be

:42:55.:43:01.

encouraging his constituents to do that. It has only just begun. The

:43:01.:43:06.

energy company obligation also provides the opportunity to help

:43:06.:43:10.

insulate some 230,000 homes to be compared with 80,000 under Warm

:43:10.:43:14.

Front. Instead of talking down these schemes, he should encourage

:43:14.:43:21.

his constituents to take them up. Mr Adrian Sanders. Two men have

:43:21.:43:25.

drowned in stormy seas off Torquay in separate incidents this week,

:43:25.:43:29.

despite best efforts of brave lifeboat crews and the co-

:43:29.:43:33.

ordination of the coastguard. How can the Prime Minister reassure

:43:33.:43:36.

local fishermen, who pay significant amounts of duty on

:43:36.:43:41.

taxes on their patch, that if the coastguard station is closed, the

:43:41.:43:47.

risks they take will not increase? He makes an important point, and it

:43:47.:43:51.

is a good moment to pay tribute to the closed garden to the incredible

:43:51.:43:56.

work, the very difficult and dangerous work, that they do. It

:43:57.:44:01.

has not been about reducing the number of boats are active stations,

:44:01.:44:04.

it is about the co-ordination centres and where they are best

:44:04.:44:12.

located. That is an important point to make. Dave Watts. Why is it the

:44:12.:44:15.

case that the Prime Minister is frightened to go and visit a food

:44:15.:44:20.

bag? Could it be that if he visited one he would see the heartless

:44:20.:44:26.

Britain that he is creating? Only after there was discussing with the

:44:26.:44:31.

person who runs the foodbank in my constituencies, which I will be

:44:31.:44:36.

visiting very shortly. He pointed out to me it was established five

:44:36.:44:39.

years ago and it is worth remembering that food bank used

:44:39.:44:45.

went up 10 times under the last Labour government. I think instead

:44:45.:44:48.

of criticising people who run third banks we should be thanking them

:44:48.:44:55.

for the work they do. I am sure the Prime Minister will

:44:55.:44:59.

join me in praising all those who work in the search and rescue

:44:59.:45:04.

Service. Can I ask the Prime Minister to intervene personally in

:45:04.:45:08.

our battle to save the Portland search-and-rescue helicopter and

:45:08.:45:13.

ask his ministers to come down to Dorset to listen to those who work

:45:13.:45:17.

in his life savings service before it is cut? Repeated requests have

:45:17.:45:22.

so far been ignored and I would have four-day visit would be the

:45:22.:45:32.
:45:32.:45:41.

This is a good opportunity to pay tribute to the search and rescue

:45:41.:45:47.

services across the country. Hour reforms aimed to improve response

:45:47.:45:51.

times by 20%. I am sure the ministers will listen to what he

:45:51.:45:58.

said. Prime minister, since you came into office, unemployment in

:45:58.:46:03.

Dumfries and Galloway has risen by over 15% and youth unemployment has

:46:03.:46:08.

risen by 9%. My right honourable friend has made reference to your

:46:08.:46:14.

words in respect of "good news will keep coming". Would the Prime

:46:14.:46:18.

Minister be good enough to explain to a house and my constituents

:46:18.:46:22.

exactly what is his definition of good news, especially in view of

:46:22.:46:28.

the economy that shrank at the end of last year, and that that will

:46:28.:46:32.

lead to further economic failure? If you look at Scotland, in

:46:32.:46:38.

Scotland unemployment has fallen by 14,000 this quarter. It has fallen

:46:38.:46:41.

by 10,000 since the general election. The number of people

:46:41.:46:50.

employed in Scotland has gone up. We have raised the tax thresholds,

:46:50.:46:53.

so 180,000 people in Scotland have been taken out of income tax

:46:53.:47:01.

altogether. There is more to do, but that represents progress.

:47:01.:47:04.

Syria, it is now clear that the Syrian people would be better off

:47:04.:47:09.

if China and Russia had not blocked effective action authorised by the

:47:09.:47:12.

United Nations. Can my right honourable friend say what we are

:47:12.:47:17.

doing to try to help the people of Syria? My right honourable friend

:47:17.:47:20.

the International Development Secretary has visited the Syrian

:47:20.:47:25.

border and senior refugee camps for herself. I believe Britain is the

:47:25.:47:28.

second-largest donor for aid and help into those refugee camps. He

:47:28.:47:32.

is right to say that one of the biggest things that could happen is

:47:32.:47:36.

for the Chinese and Russians to reconsider their positions and

:47:36.:47:39.

recognise that transition at the top of Syria would be good for the

:47:39.:47:43.

whole of that part of the world, and good for Russia as well. We

:47:43.:47:46.

should work with the opposition groups in Syria to put pressure on

:47:46.:47:51.

the regime, not least through sanctions, and also provide aid and

:47:51.:47:57.

help for those who are fleeing it. There is a school of technology

:47:57.:48:01.

that serves a growing population in some of the most deprived wards in

:48:01.:48:05.

the country. It is dilapidated and in need of replacement. Will the

:48:05.:48:08.

Prime Minister acknowledge that the real reason for the latest delay in

:48:08.:48:14.

the proposed PFI funded scheme in my constituency and others is

:48:14.:48:17.

because the banks, who have continued to pay themselves huge

:48:18.:48:23.

bonuses, refused to lend the money on the 25 year term demanded by his

:48:23.:48:28.

Education Secretary? Will he speak in plain language, may be in Latin,

:48:28.:48:38.

to the Education Secretary? We need a new school. I will leave the

:48:38.:48:41.

Latin to the mayor of London, but I will certainly have a word with the

:48:41.:48:46.

Education Secretary. If you look at school capital budgets as a whole,

:48:46.:48:51.

they are equivalent to what the previous Labour government did in

:48:51.:48:54.

its early terms. In terms of the banks, the funding for lending

:48:54.:48:58.

scheme from the Bank of England, the evidence shows that that is

:48:58.:49:02.

having an effect on lowering interest rates. We are reforming

:49:02.:49:06.

PFI, but we are also offering infrastructure guarantees, which

:49:06.:49:10.

the Treasury has never done before, to help projects go ahead.

:49:10.:49:14.

nothing is more important in early years education than the people

:49:14.:49:18.

delivering it. Does the Prime Minister agree that raising the bar

:49:18.:49:22.

and elevating their status will add prestige to the profession and give

:49:22.:49:26.

children the best possible start in life? Are my honourable friend is

:49:26.:49:30.

right. I pay tribute to what the Department of Education at produce

:49:30.:49:34.

yesterday in terms of a series of proposals to expand the

:49:34.:49:39.

availability and affordability of child care, while also making sure

:49:39.:49:43.

there is a quality offer that. If we look across Europe and see

:49:43.:49:46.

countries that have very good and affordable childcare, there are

:49:46.:49:51.

lessons we can learn. To those who say that changing the ratios are

:49:51.:49:55.

wrong, look at the ratios in countries like Denmark or France.

:49:55.:49:59.

We are coming into line with those, and we can provide more affordable

:49:59.:50:02.

childcare so that people who want to work are able to because they

:50:02.:50:08.

can find the child care they need. The British government has today

:50:08.:50:12.

accepted the proposals of the Electoral Commission in relation to

:50:12.:50:16.

the independence referendum. Amongst those recommendations is

:50:16.:50:18.

that the UK government and the Scottish government should jointly

:50:18.:50:23.

agreed to clarify what process will follow the referendum for either

:50:23.:50:28.

outcome. Given that the UK Government and Labour Party have

:50:28.:50:31.

called for the full acceptance of the Electoral Commission

:50:31.:50:34.

recommendations, will the Prime Minister today give a commitment to

:50:34.:50:36.

work with the Scottish government in advance of the referendum to

:50:36.:50:44.

come up with this joint position? welcome the fact that the SNP have

:50:44.:50:48.

accepted what the Electoral Commission found. They were worried

:50:48.:50:51.

that it was a biased question. So it is good that they have accepted

:50:51.:50:55.

that. Of course we will work with the Scottish government in

:50:55.:51:01.

providing information, but we will not pre- negotiate Scotland's exit

:51:01.:51:09.

from the UK. It is his party that wants to break up the UK, and it is

:51:09.:51:17.

for his party to make the case. Would my right honourable friend

:51:17.:51:22.

confirm that the 2 million plus surge in net immigration under the

:51:22.:51:28.

last Labour government has resulted in severe housing shortages,

:51:28.:51:33.

critical overstretch in our infrastructure and one household in

:51:33.:51:39.

20 who don't speak English? Would he agree with me that it is in the

:51:39.:51:44.

interests of all British citizens that we get a grip on our borders?

:51:45.:51:48.

My honourable friend is right. If you take up the last decade, net

:51:48.:51:54.

migration to the UK was running at over 200,000 a year, 2 million a

:51:54.:51:58.

cross a decade. That is the equivalent of two cities the size

:51:58.:52:02.

of Birmingham. It was too far and too high and the last government

:52:02.:52:07.

bears a huge responsibility for not taking responsible decisions. We

:52:07.:52:13.

are dealing with bogus colleges and bogus students, and the level of

:52:13.:52:17.

net migration has come down by a quarter. We need to do more in

:52:17.:52:21.

terms of making sure that while we welcome people who want to come

:52:21.:52:24.

here and work from within the European Union, we take a tougher

:52:24.:52:29.

approach to make sure people are not abusing our benefit system. The

:52:29.:52:35.

immigration minister is working on this issue. Last week, the Prime

:52:35.:52:41.

Minister described blacklisting as an unacceptable practice. Why is he

:52:41.:52:45.

still blacklisting food banks by refusing to have the decency to

:52:45.:52:53.

visit food banks to listen... To actually speed? The other side may

:52:53.:52:58.

find it funny, but thousands of families don't. Will the Prime

:52:58.:53:01.

Minister visits a food bank to actually speak to the people who

:53:01.:53:07.

use them? Maybe we need to modernise the system so that if you

:53:07.:53:13.

get a whip's question, you can get it on a tablet or an iPad so that

:53:13.:53:16.

you can change it as Question Time proceeds. I look forward to having

:53:16.:53:19.

those discussions with the people who operate food banks and those

:53:19.:53:24.

who use them. Use of them grew ten times under the Labour government,

:53:24.:53:27.

and instead of attacking them, we should praise the people who give

:53:27.:53:33.

their time to work in these organisations. After a huge

:53:33.:53:38.

community campaign, a hospital in Kendal was identified as the site

:53:38.:53:43.

for a new radiotherapy unit. In order to deliver this vital service,

:53:43.:53:47.

we need flexibility over the tariff for radiotherapy factions. Would

:53:47.:53:52.

the Prime Minister meet me to see how we can achieve this?

:53:52.:53:55.

honourable gentleman makes an important point about the tariff

:53:55.:53:59.

and changes to the terror. I will arrange for him to meet with the

:53:59.:54:04.

Health Secretary to discuss this. I know from visits to Cumbria how

:54:04.:54:11.

important the hospital he mentions is to local people. This week's

:54:11.:54:16.

announcement on the second phase of HS2 was welcomed in Manchester and

:54:16.:54:23.

the whole of the north of England. But if this project is really going

:54:23.:54:27.

to make an impact on the North- South divide, wouldn't it make

:54:27.:54:35.

sense to have won a hybrid bill, and built north to south as well as

:54:35.:54:39.

south to north? I am glad there is an all party welcomes for high-

:54:39.:54:44.

speed rail. It is important that we get this done. The best way of

:54:44.:54:49.

delivering the legislation, the leader of the house will come

:54:49.:54:52.

forward with our plans at the appropriate time. I worry that if

:54:52.:54:56.

you change the plans for building the bridge, you delay the overall

:54:56.:55:01.

project. My concern is that it is going too slowly. Last week, Graham

:55:01.:55:05.

goblin was convicted in cost of dangerous driving and causing the

:55:05.:55:09.

death of my much-respected constituent, Paul stock, while

:55:09.:55:13.

disqualified, and insured and speeding. Mr goblin has previous

:55:13.:55:16.

convictions for driving without insurance and while disqualified.

:55:16.:55:21.

He said he was not subject to the laws of our land. The current

:55:21.:55:26.

maximum sentence for this crime is two years. My constituent's widow

:55:26.:55:30.

believes it is time for Parliament to recognise the danger caused by a

:55:30.:55:34.

serial disqualified drivers, and to increase the maximum sentence for

:55:34.:55:38.

dangerous driving. Would my right honourable friend asked the Justice

:55:38.:55:43.

Secretary to look urgently at both these issues? For a right

:55:43.:55:46.

honourable friend can tell from the response around the house that this

:55:46.:55:53.

concern is shared widely. And at around the country. The previous

:55:53.:55:56.

government and this Government both worked to try and increase the

:55:56.:56:00.

penalties associated with drivers who have ended up killing people

:56:00.:56:03.

through their recklessness and carelessness. I will arrange for

:56:03.:56:08.

him to meet with the Justice Secretary. It is important that we

:56:08.:56:14.

give our courts a sense that when there are appalling crimes, they

:56:14.:56:20.

can take exemplary action. That is important in a justice system.

:56:20.:56:25.

the subject of food safety, can the Prime Minister confirm that traces

:56:25.:56:29.

of stalking horse have been found in the Conservative party food

:56:29.:56:39.
:56:39.:56:44.

Somewhere in my briefing, I had some very complicated information

:56:44.:56:48.

about the danger of particular drugs for horses entering the food

:56:48.:56:54.

chain. He threw me completely with that ingenious pivot! The

:56:54.:56:57.

Conservative Party has always stood for people who want to work hard

:56:57.:57:02.

and get on. I am glad or that all of those behind me take that

:57:02.:57:12.
:57:12.:57:19.

seriously. As my right honourable friend sets forth on his specific

:57:19.:57:27.

mission to Algeria, will he, with his great historical knowledge,

:57:27.:57:33.

bear in mind that when Philippe sent his eldest son to a Algeria in

:57:33.:57:43.
:57:43.:57:43.

the 1840s Mac, on a similar venture, it took a century, massive

:57:43.:57:47.

casualties, the overthrow of the Third Republic and the genius of

:57:47.:57:52.

General de Gaulle to get the French army back out of the North African

:57:52.:58:01.

desert? Order! I think we want to hear the

:58:01.:58:07.

Prime Minister's answer to this question. I can reassure my right

:58:07.:58:10.

honourable friend, I am only planning to visit Algiers rather

:58:10.:58:13.

than anything else, but I am sure the events to which he referred, if

:58:13.:58:17.

he had put that in an urgent question, he would have got a

:58:17.:58:27.
:58:27.:58:36.

Last week, the Prime Minister said he was paying down Britain's debt,

:58:36.:58:42.

but on his watch, it will go up by �600 billion. Will he take the

:58:42.:58:48.

opportunity to correct the record? We have got the deficit down by a

:58:48.:58:52.

quarter. To get on top of your debts, you have to get on top of

:58:52.:58:57.

the deficit. That is stage one. But it is worth reminding ourselves why

:58:57.:59:02.

we are having to do this in the first place. Who was it who racked

:59:02.:59:07.

up the debts? Who racked up the deficit? Who gave us the biggest

:59:07.:59:13.

deficit of any country virtually anywhere in the world? It was the

:59:13.:59:19.

Government he supported. If the Prime Minister agrees that a

:59:19.:59:22.

shortage of engineering skills is one of the greatest avoidable

:59:22.:59:25.

threats to our prosperity and security and that the participation

:59:25.:59:29.

rate of women in engineering is scandalously low, will he

:59:29.:59:32.

encouraged his colleagues to look favourably on my bill to inspire

:59:32.:59:35.

young people to take on the challenging and well-paid careers

:59:35.:59:39.

in engineering, whether it is graduates or apprentices? I will

:59:39.:59:43.

certainly look carefully at the bill that my honourable friend puts

:59:43.:59:49.

forward. In the recent UCAS data released today, an encouraging sign

:59:49.:59:53.

is that the number of people studying engineering and computer

:59:53.:59:57.

science has gone up radically as an early sign that the steps that have

:59:57.:00:00.

been taken over recent years by governments of all parties to try

:00:00.:00:06.

and raise the status of engineering are beginning to have an effect.

:00:06.:00:11.

His government has just introduced two new taxes which will cost

:00:11.:00:18.

people wanting to build their own home between 25 and �35,000 per

:00:18.:00:23.

family. Why is he choosing to put a block on the aspirations of young

:00:23.:00:28.

people who want to build their own home? Were we are encouraging

:00:28.:00:31.

people to build their own home and buy their own home, not least by

:00:31.:00:35.

the reform of the planning system that has seen the planning guidance

:00:35.:00:41.

go from 1000 pages to 50 pages. That is why we also encourage the

:00:41.:00:45.

right to buy. If honourable member has opposite one to help, they

:00:45.:00:48.

might want to talk to the Labour authorities that continually

:00:48.:00:54.

blocked people from buying their council housing association homes.

:00:54.:00:59.

Would my right honourable friend wish to congratulate and

:00:59.:01:03.

engineering company in my constituency, who have taken

:01:03.:01:06.

advantage of the capital allowances announced in the autumn statement

:01:06.:01:13.

and purchased a �1.3 million machine that will create six new

:01:13.:01:18.

jobs and a number of components for Jaguar cars that was destined for

:01:18.:01:24.

the forest? I certainly don't my friend bhangra in welcoming that

:01:24.:01:27.

investment. The campaign he has launched in Burnley did have an

:01:27.:01:32.

effect in bringing forward these proposals on capital allowances. It

:01:33.:01:36.

is clear that a lot of businesses do have money locked up in their

:01:36.:01:40.

balance sheets that we want to see invested, and these allowances are

:01:40.:01:43.

good way of encouraging businesses to bring forward that sort of

:01:43.:01:50.

investment. David Bresnan is severely disabled and has a medical

:01:50.:01:56.

need for an extra room in his home. Why is the Government he leads

:01:56.:02:01.

taking �776 a year away from him in order to pay for a tax cut for the

:02:01.:02:08.

richest? We put in place a �13 million discretionary fund to help

:02:09.:02:14.

in particular cases like the one he raises. But we have an overall

:02:14.:02:20.

situation where the housing benefit budget is �23 billion. That is only

:02:20.:02:23.

�10 billion less than their entire defence budget. It is not good

:02:23.:02:28.

enough for members opposite to oppose welfare cut after welfare

:02:28.:02:32.

cut to propose welfare spend after welfare spend while they realise

:02:32.:02:38.

that we are dealing with the mess they left. Does the Prime Minister

:02:38.:02:42.

agree that when the leader of the opposition talks about the economy,

:02:42.:02:46.

he sounds just like a Victorian undertaker looking forward to a

:02:46.:02:52.

hard winter? And does he not accept that you cannot get out of a debt

:02:52.:02:56.

crisis by borrowing more money? honourable friend makes a good

:02:56.:03:03.

point. The economy we inherited was completely unbalanced. It was based

:03:03.:03:09.

on housing, finance, government spending and immigration. Those

:03:09.:03:13.

were four incredibly unstable pillars for sustained economic

:03:13.:03:19.

growth. We have had to do a major recovery operation. It is still

:03:19.:03:24.

under way, but you can see, in the new jobs created, in the private

:03:24.:03:28.

sector businesses expanding, that we are making progress. George

:03:28.:03:38.
:03:38.:03:40.

Galloway. Following yesterday's announcement, will the Prime

:03:40.:03:45.

Minister Adam bright for the house the key differences between the

:03:45.:03:49.

hand chopping, throat-cutting jihadists fighting the dictatorship

:03:49.:03:57.

in Mali that we are now to help to kill, and the equally bloodthirsty

:03:57.:04:04.

jihadists that we are giving money, material, political and diplomatic

:04:04.:04:08.

support to in Syria? Has the Prime Minister read Franken stein, and

:04:08.:04:14.

did he read it to the end? Well, some things come and go, but one

:04:14.:04:17.

thing is certain - wherever there is a brutal Arab dictator in the

:04:17.:04:26.

world, he will have the support of the honourable gentleman! Order!

:04:26.:04:36.
:04:36.:04:41.

Last but not least, Craig Whittaker. We can definitely do without them.

:04:41.:04:44.

Will the Prime Minister tell the House whether he will be taking

:04:44.:04:49.

seriously the Liberal Democrat ministers who are queueing up today

:04:49.:04:53.

to resign their posts after voting against the Government in last

:04:53.:04:57.

night's vote? Clearly there is a profound disagreement about this

:04:57.:05:02.

issue. I would say to everyone in the House of Commons who voted for

:05:02.:05:06.

a nova sized house of Commons and unequal constituency boundaries

:05:06.:05:10.

that are both costly and unfair, they will have to justify that to

:05:10.:05:20.
:05:20.:05:25.

That has dominated by the usual meat and drink of the economy,

:05:25.:05:30.

growth, the deficit and so on, between Mr Miliband and Mr Cameron.

:05:30.:05:38.

We did not predict they would do that, we were too busy talking

:05:38.:05:44.

about his stalking horse to the Tory leadership. The Prime Minister

:05:44.:05:49.

was teased about that particular stalking horse. Not the most

:05:49.:05:56.

interesting of PMQs. Harriet Harman, sitting beside the leader of the

:05:56.:06:01.

opposition, started tweeting about a campaign she is on to try to save

:06:01.:06:07.

a hospital. If they didn't find it boring, how did you?

:06:07.:06:13.

They didn't say so if they did. It was all on the economy. Clare says

:06:13.:06:16.

I don't think one single Miliband question was answered. David

:06:16.:06:20.

Cameron might not realise but as soon as he gets on to the banging

:06:20.:06:24.

on about Labour's thoughts, people stop listening. The Tories have

:06:24.:06:29.

trashed the recovery, the debt and the deficit, and I know they are

:06:29.:06:35.

rising, unlike David Cameron. One viewer said it was the

:06:35.:06:38.

strongest performance from Ed Miliband on the economy for a while,

:06:38.:06:43.

but another said that Miliband chose the wrong theme, his

:06:43.:06:48.

questions were labelled and his attempt to embarrass the Chancellor

:06:48.:06:55.

was ill-timed and badly executed. Es has lots of easy targets, the

:06:55.:07:00.

Lib Dem ministers, the economy in triple dip recession, yet he seems

:07:00.:07:04.

unable are finding a short, sharp punchline. If he can't do well now

:07:04.:07:09.

he will never be any use in the job. And this one to finish off with,

:07:09.:07:14.

love to go up -- love to James Landale, Wenders's Nick Robinson

:07:14.:07:24.
:07:24.:07:26.

retire?! That was from Mrs Landale! Let's come back to this stalking

:07:26.:07:33.

horse. All this stuff has been in the paper about Adam a free day, is

:07:34.:07:40.

he behind that or rather people behind him behind that?

:07:40.:07:44.

understanding is that the chain of events was that it emerged somehow,

:07:44.:07:52.

we don't know precisely how, and wants a bit of it emerged then his

:07:52.:07:57.

camp, if I can call them that, a handful of MPs made a tactical

:07:57.:08:01.

decision that if it was going public it might as well be fully

:08:01.:08:06.

cocked, not half-cocked. They got some details about the approach

:08:06.:08:11.

they might take. That is how it got out. Whether it is the right

:08:11.:08:17.

strategy I will leave to others to judge. To be honest, I didn't take

:08:17.:08:23.

it seriously even though it was in three Sunday papers, and yet I have

:08:23.:08:29.

read an excellent newsletter, I am sure we all read it, he has

:08:29.:08:37.

appointed a PR person, a press officer...? I know that one

:08:37.:08:41.

journalist has been approached in the past to see if they can help

:08:41.:08:46.

write some speeches and things? What we are talking about his after

:08:46.:08:51.

2015, we are not talking about any pre-emptive strike, it is about

:08:51.:08:57.

what will happen afterwards. He is the MP for Windsor, Wright, a self-

:08:57.:09:02.

made businessman, he has been very successful, he entered Parliament

:09:02.:09:06.

in 2005, he has been there for a while, but some people say he has

:09:06.:09:14.

disappeared without trace, he has not made much impact? There are

:09:14.:09:18.

many, many Conservative MPs who agree entirely with that, they

:09:18.:09:22.

think the idea is ludicrous. Your microphone has gone off, I am told.

:09:22.:09:27.

It has fallen off. Many people said he has disappeared without trace,

:09:27.:09:34.

he has not made an impact in Parliament that he was expected to?

:09:34.:09:39.

Most care that it -- Conservative MPs would agree, they found the

:09:39.:09:44.

idea of him potentially being leader ludicrous, but they did not

:09:44.:09:48.

to find a ludicrous that next time around it should be an

:09:48.:09:53.

establishment shoo-in, there should be a candidate from the backbenches.

:09:53.:09:57.

My guess is that there will be a very large field, next time around,

:09:57.:10:02.

of many people, some of them more plausible than others. What do you

:10:03.:10:08.

make of this? It is very strange. I think the Taiwanese animation we

:10:08.:10:15.

saw is the level of seriousness that it deserves. The Prime

:10:15.:10:20.

Minister out polls the Conservative Party, he is very popular, he is

:10:20.:10:23.

demonstrating clear leadership on issues like defence and foreign

:10:23.:10:27.

party, he will lead the party into the election which every

:10:27.:10:32.

Conservative MP should be focused on winning, getting a majority

:10:32.:10:35.

Conservative government. I am confident he will be Prime Minister

:10:35.:10:39.

of a majority Conservative government in 2015. The famine was

:10:39.:10:43.

making his big pitch with the European intervention last week and

:10:43.:10:46.

you must be absolutely furious. He was putting a brave face on it

:10:47.:10:50.

today, but his whole weekend was ringed with this potential

:10:50.:10:54.

leadership coming out into the open. People will think this is a turning

:10:54.:11:01.

point. It is people talking about the Prime Minister's weakness and

:11:01.:11:06.

vulnerability. People will now think there is no smoke without

:11:06.:11:14.

fire when it comes to division and weakness and... Are you in any

:11:14.:11:18.

doubt, really, that Mr Cameron will lead the Conservatives into the

:11:18.:11:24.

next election? I suspect you will, but it does him no favours to have

:11:24.:11:28.

these much more Alban... It used to be the case that stalking horses

:11:28.:11:33.

were few and far between, to have this so soon and out in the Open is

:11:33.:11:37.

unprecedented. The counter conspiracy theory is that when you

:11:37.:11:40.

are in a position of strength, you have given a big speech on Europe,

:11:40.:11:45.

you have more command, that is the moment that you start naming people

:11:45.:11:49.

who might be presumptuous enough to think they might replace you.

:11:49.:11:53.

We will leave it there in case those stalking horses end up in

:11:53.:12:00.

Tesco burgers! Allegedly. Is it just allegedly?! My legal adviser

:12:00.:12:05.

will deal with all inquiries. In recent weeks, videos have appeared

:12:05.:12:09.

on the internet showing people in the London borough of Tower Hamlets

:12:09.:12:12.

being subjected to abuse and told they should get out of a Muslim

:12:12.:12:16.

area. The actions of these so- called patrols has been widely

:12:16.:12:18.

condemned by the local Muslim community. For our soapbox this

:12:18.:12:21.

week, human rights campaigner Peter Tatchell has been out on the

:12:21.:12:24.

streets of Whitechapel. His report begins with language that may

:12:24.:12:31.

offend some viewers. You are walking through a Muslim

:12:31.:12:37.

area dress like a fag, mate. You need to get out of here. The words

:12:37.:12:42.

of a tiny band of self proclaimed Muslim vigilantes in East London.

:12:42.:12:47.

They allegedly seek to enforce Sharia law by harassing men who

:12:47.:12:55.

seem to be gay... This is a Muslim area. Women deemed to be dressed

:12:55.:13:00.

immodestly and people seen drinking alcohol. No alcohol is allowed.

:13:00.:13:10.
:13:10.:13:15.

main victims of these bullies were local Muslims.

:13:15.:13:19.

These so-called patrols took place in these streets, where diverse

:13:19.:13:24.

communities, for the most part, co- exist without trouble. The

:13:25.:13:28.

condemnation from the Muslim community has been swift and

:13:28.:13:32.

commendable. In one sermon delivered in East London Mosque,

:13:32.:13:37.

the vigilantes were denounced as complete bigots who had contravened

:13:37.:13:41.

rather than enforced Islamic law. There has also been criticism from

:13:41.:13:47.

the Muslim Council of Britain. Now the challenge to Muslim

:13:47.:13:51.

organisations is to show their commitment to equality by closing

:13:51.:13:57.

their draws to homophobic hate preachers and by supporting an end

:13:57.:14:02.

to the ban on same-sex marriage. Most Muslim people do not seek to

:14:02.:14:06.

impose their personal beliefs on others. While they may not approve

:14:06.:14:12.

of homosexuality or gay marriage, equally, they do not approve of

:14:12.:14:17.

homophobia, nor do they believe the law should discriminate against gay

:14:17.:14:24.

people. For them, discrimination is not a Muslim value.

:14:24.:14:27.

Although homophobia and Islamaphobia are different, the gay

:14:27.:14:33.

and Muslim communities share a parallel experience of prejudice,

:14:33.:14:37.

discrimination and hate crime. Victimisation of Muslim people is

:14:37.:14:42.

wrong, so, too, is the victimisation of gay people. We

:14:42.:14:47.

have a common interest in working together to create a more tolerant

:14:47.:14:57.
:14:57.:14:57.

and just society. Equality for all, hatred of Phnom. -- hatred of none.

:14:57.:15:02.

Peter Tatchell joins us in the studio, along with the Faith and

:15:02.:15:06.

Communities Minister Baroness Warsi. Is it right to say that women --

:15:06.:15:09.

that Muslims are more commonly the victims rather than perpetrators of

:15:09.:15:13.

harassment? Yes, and these vigilantes are predominantly

:15:13.:15:19.

tackling fellow Muslims, we should stand against these bullies.

:15:19.:15:23.

there any truth in the suggestion that there is a wider issue of

:15:23.:15:28.

homophobia and, perhaps, even sexism among British Muslims?

:15:28.:15:32.

think I must congratulate the organisations who came out and

:15:33.:15:36.

condemned this. It is pleasing and heartening for me to see so many

:15:36.:15:40.

organisations come out and condemn this so clearly. But what was said

:15:40.:15:45.

at the end of Peter's video, this is an issue which both communities

:15:45.:15:50.

have to face together. I have said on many occasions is the strength

:15:50.:15:55.

is when a white person says racism is wrong, a straight person says

:15:55.:15:59.

homophobia is wrong, and when a non-Muslim person says Islamaphobia

:15:59.:16:04.

is wrong. But what about homophobia? Do you think it is a

:16:04.:16:07.

bigger problem, perhaps, for British Muslims than in the wider

:16:07.:16:11.

community? There is a challenge with a lots of these communities

:16:11.:16:19.

about how we'd discuss the issue of homosexuality. -- with a lot of

:16:19.:16:23.

these communities. Personal religious belief has to be

:16:23.:16:27.

separated from discrimination, homophobia and the law of the land.

:16:27.:16:31.

The more we can make that argument that of course, people of faith can

:16:31.:16:34.

have a fake position on how they view homosexuality or

:16:34.:16:40.

heterosexuality, they must openly condemn homophobia. What is your

:16:40.:16:43.

anecdotal experience you have heard in terms of attitudes within the

:16:43.:16:46.

British Muslim community towards things like when they are talking

:16:46.:16:52.

about homophobia and sexism? Muslim community is not uniquely

:16:52.:16:56.

homophobic or sexist, there are some in that community like all

:16:56.:17:00.

others. Some polls indicate there may be high levels of homophobia

:17:00.:17:05.

and sexism in some sections of the Muslim community, but not all, by a

:17:05.:17:09.

long shot. I find disappointing that the Muslim Council of Britain

:17:09.:17:13.

in 2008, after many years of dialogue I had with them, agreed

:17:13.:17:17.

that from that moment onwards they would not support discriminates to

:17:17.:17:21.

off. They could not approve of homosexuality but they would not

:17:21.:17:24.

support laws discriminating against gay people, yet the day they are

:17:24.:17:27.

working with Christian fundamentalists to oppose equal

:17:27.:17:34.

civil marriage. I am really sorry that they have taken that stands. I

:17:34.:17:38.

accept their right to disagree with gay marriage, but as Baroness Warsi

:17:38.:17:48.
:17:48.:17:56.

said I don't think it is right to Peter is right that many faith

:17:56.:18:00.

communities have concerns about the position the Government is taking,

:18:00.:18:04.

and it is right for us to have a dialogue. I have said openly that

:18:04.:18:07.

providing we have the right safeguards in place so that no

:18:07.:18:11.

faith institution will be forced to conduct same-sex married within

:18:11.:18:17.

their religious institutions, they the positions or faith communities

:18:17.:18:21.

can then move forward and say, we have a theological position, but we

:18:21.:18:26.

have a position in terms of the law of the land. The two have to be

:18:26.:18:30.

separated. Moving on to the gangs that were shown in those films,

:18:30.:18:35.

what needs to be done? Firstly, the community itself has to condemn

:18:35.:18:39.

this. I was delighted from the outset that local mosques and

:18:39.:18:45.

community groups condemned it. They are appalling. If you watch the

:18:45.:18:50.

YouTube clips of them, late at night, in the dark, approaching a

:18:50.:18:54.

woman, criticising her dress, criticising alcohol, we have a

:18:54.:19:00.

police force and a set of laws in this country. They are the same for

:19:00.:19:03.

everybody. We do not need vigilantes on our streets behaving

:19:03.:19:08.

in that way. It is right that the police have made arrests. They need

:19:08.:19:13.

to be made an example of. One of the concerns from the Quilliam

:19:13.:19:18.

Foundation think-tank, they have said they fear that these incidents

:19:18.:19:23.

could increase. Do you agree? don't think these incidents are

:19:23.:19:27.

isolated. I have had reports over many years that in parts of east

:19:28.:19:32.

London, local Muslims have been harassed by fundamentalist Muslims

:19:32.:19:37.

within their own community, trying to enforce strict dress codes, bans

:19:37.:19:41.

on alcohol and severe harassment of men and women either known to be

:19:41.:19:46.

gay or perceived to be gay. That has been going on for a long time

:19:46.:19:50.

and I don't think sufficient action has been taken. But I am delighted

:19:50.:19:53.

that a representative of the Muslim Council of Britain has condemned

:19:53.:19:58.

this particular patrol. Do you think this is a sign of things to

:19:58.:20:03.

come? I don't agree. I think the picture painted is quite

:20:03.:20:08.

sensationalist. I agree with what Peter has said, that there are

:20:08.:20:14.

pockets of people - I faced it in Luton - I turned up and they told

:20:14.:20:20.

me I should have been dressed with my face covered. There are usually

:20:20.:20:24.

about half a dozen egotistical, attention-seeking no jobs, the only

:20:24.:20:31.

way to describe them, who will come together. But they represent nobody.

:20:31.:20:35.

But it is threatening. That is why it has to be challenged. The police

:20:35.:20:39.

have to be educated to make sure they deal with this. One of the

:20:39.:20:43.

biggest criticisms until now has been that the community does not

:20:43.:20:48.

come out and say, not in my name. With this incident - I think the

:20:48.:20:55.

police can do more, when I was egg in Luton and threatened by these

:20:55.:20:58.

individuals, officers came up to me and said, you do realise they have

:20:58.:21:01.

a right to protest? And I said, that is fine, but I have just been

:21:01.:21:06.

harassed and bullied by a set of idiots and I would like more

:21:06.:21:11.

response done that! From my experience, I have been attacked in

:21:12.:21:15.

east London on three occasions by people will have professed to be

:21:15.:21:19.

Islamic fundamentalists who have used quotes from the Koran to

:21:19.:21:23.

physically assault me and abuse me because I am gay. I am not

:21:23.:21:26.

suggesting that is a widespread view, but I have had personal

:21:26.:21:31.

experience of it and I know many other day people, particularly gay

:21:31.:21:35.

Muslims in east London, who are terrified of being discovered by

:21:35.:21:39.

these extremists. And when I went to East London last year to support

:21:39.:21:43.

the Muslim community against the EDL, I was physically threatened by

:21:43.:21:47.

a small group of fanatics. Thankfully, some Muslims Kate to my

:21:48.:21:52.

defence. So it is not a universally bleak picture. Have a will you vote

:21:52.:21:56.

on gay marriage? Providing I can get the legal safeguards which I

:21:56.:22:00.

have been speaking to Maria Miller about and providing the faith

:22:00.:22:06.

communities on the right page, I will be voting for gay marriage.

:22:06.:22:10.

Now to immigration. If you are watching this programme in Bulgaria

:22:10.:22:14.

and Romania, and we know many of you do, the immigration minister

:22:14.:22:18.

here, Mark Harper, is keen to point out that the streets of Britain are

:22:18.:22:22.

not paved with gold, contrary to popular opinion. According to

:22:22.:22:25.

reports earlier this week, the Government is so worried about a

:22:25.:22:29.

possible influx of migrants from the two countries that it is

:22:29.:22:33.

considering a negative advertising campaign in an effort to keep

:22:33.:22:43.
:22:43.:22:44.

people away. Surely not? Welcome to Great Britain. Home to

:22:44.:22:54.
:22:54.:23:19.

great weather. Great shopping. And you are guaranteed a great

:23:19.:23:29.
:23:29.:23:31.

welcome. Britain - sure you wouldn't rather go to France?

:23:31.:23:35.

Well, if that doesn't put you off coming, nothing will. Is it true

:23:35.:23:38.

that you are going to make adverts to deter the Bulgarians and

:23:39.:23:43.

Romanians from coming to Britain? would not believe everything you

:23:43.:23:47.

read in the papers. What we are actually up to is what the Prime

:23:47.:23:50.

Minister talked about at Prime Minister's Questions. I am chairing

:23:50.:23:55.

a committee of ministers across government to look at what people

:23:55.:23:59.

who come to this country, both those who come legally and

:23:59.:24:03.

illegally, how easy it is to access public services and make sure we

:24:03.:24:08.

are not seen as a soft touch. That does not just apply to Romania and

:24:08.:24:13.

Bulgaria, it applies to everyone. Are you considering devising ways

:24:13.:24:17.

of deterring Romanians and Bulgarians from coming here?

:24:17.:24:21.

not in the way that was characterised in that video. If

:24:21.:24:26.

people from Bulgaria and Romania come here and work and contribute,

:24:26.:24:31.

we don't want people coming to this country who just use it to claim

:24:31.:24:40.

benefits and live off the state. But before I come on to that, are

:24:40.:24:45.

you considering devising ways of deterring them from coming in the

:24:45.:24:49.

first place? We want to make sure people have an accurate view of

:24:49.:24:53.

what the deal is here. It is not a soft touch for benefits. So you

:24:54.:25:00.

are? We will not do stuff like that. Will you take out ads in Bulgaria

:25:00.:25:06.

and Romania? Were have not even thought about it. But you might?

:25:06.:25:10.

are doing the serious work of looking what our rules are for

:25:10.:25:15.

access to public services, benefits. We have started at work. I have no

:25:16.:25:19.

specific announcements to give you today on your programme. I will

:25:19.:25:28.

announce it in Parliament first. But we are doing serious work.

:25:28.:25:33.

have not quite answered what I was asking, but let me move on. If a

:25:33.:25:38.

Romanian or Bulgarian comes to this country to work, whether they get

:25:38.:25:42.

worker or not is another matter, but they come to live here - do

:25:42.:25:46.

they have automatic access to the NHS? At the moment, if somebody

:25:47.:25:50.

comes here to work, they can access the health service on the same

:25:50.:25:55.

basis as someone who lives here. We are considering whether that is

:25:55.:26:00.

right. Under the European rules, if you come here, you are not supposed

:26:00.:26:05.

to be a burden on our health service. The NHS is a national

:26:05.:26:10.

service, not a national one. So we are looking to see if we have

:26:10.:26:13.

sufficient protections in place. Her but as things stand, if they

:26:13.:26:18.

come, they can access the NHS on the same basis as you all right?

:26:18.:26:21.

For if you come here to work and you pay National Insurance

:26:21.:26:25.

contributions, you have access to the NHS. If they get a job when

:26:25.:26:32.

they come here, but it is quite a low-paid job, as they tend to be,

:26:32.:26:36.

as they take jobs we don't like doing or minimum-wage jobs, are

:26:36.:26:42.

they entitled to in-work benefits from the get go? He depends. If

:26:42.:26:46.

they are in work and paying National Insurance contributions,

:26:46.:26:51.

they will become eligible for contributory benefits. A will they

:26:51.:26:55.

become eligible for working tax credit? Will they get child

:26:55.:27:00.

benefit? That depends whether you have a National Insurance

:27:00.:27:06.

contribution record. If you do, yes, you are entitled to it. We are

:27:06.:27:10.

looking at not just what our rules are, which are quite tough, it is

:27:10.:27:13.

looking at what our rules are compared to why European neighbours

:27:13.:27:18.

to make sure that if someone is making a choice about where they

:27:18.:27:22.

come and what they get from the state, we want to make sure we are

:27:22.:27:27.

not the easiest country. Sam is like there are a lot of reasons for

:27:27.:27:30.

coming. You asked an interesting question interviewing Eric Pickles

:27:30.:27:34.

a few weeks ago about what the numbers will be. I suspect that the

:27:34.:27:38.

Government have actually got a projection. They always estimate

:27:38.:27:44.

when these transitional controls come out. And yet we need freedom

:27:44.:27:47.

of information questions to find out what they are. So can I

:27:47.:27:51.

respectfully ask, what is the figure? I have been very

:27:51.:27:55.

straightforward. The government is not in the business of making

:27:55.:28:01.

speculative forecasts. You were. You can do a Freedom of Information

:28:01.:28:09.

request. Eric Pickles said he had a figure, but he did not believe it.

:28:09.:28:14.

But you should project what the impact will be. Our independent

:28:14.:28:17.

advisory committee looked at this and said trying to come up with a

:28:17.:28:22.

forecast is not sensible. There are so many variables. But they got it

:28:22.:28:29.

right. Labour got it wrong. We have run out of time. In guess the year,

:28:29.:28:39.
:28:39.:28:44.

what was the year? 1985. Richard Waddington from Romania... No,

:28:44.:28:49.

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn with live coverage of Prime Minister's Questions and the latest political news and debate, with Conservative MP Mark Harper and Labour MP Chris Leslie. The Guess the Year competition closes at 12.30pm during the live broadcast of this programme.


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