12/02/2013 Daily Politics


12/02/2013

Jo Coburn is joined by businesswoman Nicola Horlick to discuss the big political stories of the day.


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LineFromTo

Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. They press

:00:41.:00:45.

regulator established by Royal Charter, will it be enough to

:00:45.:00:49.

prevent another phone hacking type scandal? The Government publishes

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proposals this afternoon. Barclays slims down its investment

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banking operations and says they are clamping down on bonuses, but

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has the City culture changed? Up to 1200 die as a result of poor

:01:04.:01:08.

care in Stafford Hospital. There has been a 2000 page report, but

:01:08.:01:14.

why has no one resigned? House of Cards is back on our

:01:14.:01:19.

screens. Its author, Michael Dobbs, joins us live - but is it as good

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with an American accent? You might very well think that, I couldn't

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possibly comment. All that in the next hour. With us

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for the programme is the businesswoman Nicola Horlick,

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welcome. First today, University graduate

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Cait Reilly has won her Court of Appeal claimed that requiring her

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to work for free at a Poundland discounts caught -- store was

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unlawful. Three judges in London ruled that the regulations under

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which most of the Government back- to-work schemes were created do not

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comply with the law and has quashed them. A few minutes ago, Cait

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Reilly's solicitor spoke about it. We can speak to our political

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correspondent. How damaging is this for the back-to-work schemes?

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are playing this down, saying they will table new regulations so they

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comply with the law, but the table like -- the solicitor outside the

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court who has just won this case says it is a huge setback for the

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Department of Work and Pensions, that there is confusion within the

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department and she has raised the possibility that thousands of

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people who have had benefits docked for not complying with these

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schemes will have to have that money paid back. We have had

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reaction from the Employment Minister, he says the court has

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backed the Government right to require people to take part in the

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programmes which will help get them back to work, he says it is

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ridiculous to call it forced Labour. This has not been ruled unlawful on

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the grounds of the compulsion. The judges have backed the Government,

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saying they can run these schemes. The problem is with the regulations

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they have not explained enough about the sanctions, about the

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detail of these programmes, in Parliament. So it has gone beyond

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what Parliament originally approved, that is why the Government says it

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will rewrite regulations. Does this mean that somebody in the position

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of Cait Reilly, who is already working for free somewhere, which

:03:24.:03:28.

you could call work experience, will not be forced to go into a

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government back-to-work scheme at Poundland, for example? The whole

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point of this is a back-to-work scheme, it is supposed to give

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people an extra skill to help them get into the workplace. I suppose

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that was part of the problem, this woman was already doing voluntary

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work in a museum, she was a graduate. She says she is not above

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working in a supermarket, she does that part-time, but she felt it was

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wrong that she was taken away from looking at -- looking for work and

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another voluntary job to do a job in Poundland, which she felt would

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not lead to employment. A Work and Pensions Select Committee has

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looked into this and that is their problem. They do not have the

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problem with the compulsion, but you have to have a scheme which

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will give people extra skills which may lead to employment, otherwise

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there is no point. Nicola Horlick, in principle, do you support the

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idea that the Government can require young people in this

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particular case to take up unpaid work experience or lose benefits?

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do actually support that. I think they have to make sure that the

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work is suitable for the person and their qualifications. That is what

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this lady was arguing against an seems to have won on. I don't think

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it is appropriate to stick a graduate in Poundland when she

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might want to do museum work long term and was already volunteering

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in a museum. I think the Government needs to get a whole lot of

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companies to sign up to provide work experience. I do it all the

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time, I allow graduates to work with us for a couple of weeks or

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maybe even longer in order to have something to put on their CV. That

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can be formalised. There are all sorts of charitable organisations

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trying to do this, but having some formality and linking it to

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benefits, I don't think that is a bad idea. It is important for

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people to have things on their CV in order to get into employment.

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But if companies, or the right sort of companies, don't come forward

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with the right sort of work experience...? I think they will.

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Most people in positions of power in the workplace wants to help,

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because everybody knows there is a major issue with youth unemployment

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and we don't wanted to get to the proportions that today's inns, say,

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Spain. One of the problems with making people work longer before

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they can draw their pensions is that people at the other Wrens,

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coming out of university, are trying to get into the workplace

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and it is very hard. They need to distinguish themselves, in order to

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do that they need work experience. What about the issue of being paid?

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The argument was that any work experience is better than sitting

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at home, but if you will not be paid...? You are being paid a

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benefit, that is the thing. There have been so many debates over the

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years with the workfare concept, which in areas of the United States

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they have not introduced, and quite successfully. I think there is

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nothing wrong with the idea of workfare, so long as it is

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organised in the right way and people are getting the right sort

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of experience. Of somebody wants to be a plumber, why not send them

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along to somebody who will train them or give them experience so

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they know what being a plumber is like?

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If this afternoon, the Government is expected to outline the measures

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it thinks are necessary to prevent a repeat of the press excesses

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leading to the phone hacking scandal. Lord Justice Leveson

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published his long awaited 2000 page report at the end of November

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last year, declaring that the press had wreaked havoc with the lives of

:07:07.:07:12.

ordinary people. Lord Leveson said that the pressured continue to be

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self-regulated but there should be a new press standards body created

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by the Industry, complete with new code of conduct. Crucially, he said

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it should be backed by legislation. It is whether to have the statutory

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underpinning that has split the political parties. David Cameron

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and many in his party opposed to Parliament legislating to regulate

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the press, preferring a Royal Charter. This is a way of setting

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up a body as a single legal entity, and once it is established it can't

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be amended by parliament, which legislation could be. At the time

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Leveson was published, Nick Clegg indicated some specific concerns

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about Ofcom's role as the Independent verify of the new

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watchdog. Labour said they supported the central

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recommendations made in the report and published a draft bill to prove

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it could be done. Has David Cameron managed to bring out below back --

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Ed Miliband onside and bring a consensus around the Royal Charter.

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Natalie Fenton of the campaigning group Hacked Off joins me now. Can

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you tell us what the government responses are? The Royal Charter

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looks like it has tried to implement some of Leveson, but has

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not done so very well. It would seem, and I have not seen the final

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version so why can't comment in great detail, it would seem that it

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does not fulfilled the requirement of Leveson to be independent and

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effective. That meant independence from politicians and press, and

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effective in terms of delivering protection and redress for the

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public as well as safeguarding protection for the integrity of

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journalists. It seems like the Royal Charter does not deliver on

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those crucial accounts. As I understand it, royal charters are

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legally binding documents that can set out powers, rules and other

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responsibilities of a body, so why can't it deliver, in broad terms,

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what Leveson was saying? something is Independent it

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literally can't have interference from the industry and politicians.

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If you are going to set up a body with industry and put into who will

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be the chair, who will be on the board, that is really problematic -

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- something with industry input. Royal charters are designed to be

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independent of the industry that they are there to regulate.

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seems that the chair of the appointments panel will be selected

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by parliament... Actually, not by Parliament, by ministers. It will

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simply be appointed. The other people on the appointments panel,

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one of them will be there to represent the interests of the

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industry. The whole idea of the appointments panel is that it does

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not represent the interests of industry at all, it is there to be

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entirely independent. What do you fear if this is what will be

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established, this royal charter with representation from ministers

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and the industry? Sadly, it looks like the industry has persuaded the

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Government to do their bidding. That introduces a major problem for

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us and for victims. If that is the way it proceed without any further

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amendment, we simply can't support it at all. Do you think Lord

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Justice Leveson would agree with you that these proposals are the

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wrong way to go? He would absolutely agree with us. The

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majority of these recommendations are breached in this Royal Charter.

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What do you make of the Government are not introducing this with great

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fanfare? I think the whole process has been rather undemocratic. There

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has been very little consultation over the whole Royal Charter. They

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were talking to hacked off for a little while and then they stopped

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talking to us, they started talking to the press, but it should have

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been in the public domain, they should have been public

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concentration's consultation on how this Royal Charter functions. It

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has been announced without any consultation and there could be a

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bid to force it through in that form. Natalie Fenton, thank you.

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Conservative peer Lord Balad and Liberal Democrat MP John Hemming

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joined me. Do you share Natalie's fears that this is a stitch-up

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behind closed doors and will not establish any of the

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recommendations that Lord Justice Leveson put forward? My concern is

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to keep the politicians' hands of things like the regulatory code.

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There is a problem with statute, it puts politicians in charge of the

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regulatory code. This is not statute in that sense. A Royal

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Charter is potentially worse. Because it is within the gift of

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the Privy Council, which is more controlled by the Government than

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the Queen, we face a bigger problem with the Royal Charter than statute,

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potentially. Do you think phone hacking could happen again under

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eight Royal Charter? The phone hacking scandal was about the

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police not prosecuting criminal offences and sweeping them under

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the carpet as being unimportant. I am not sure myself why Lord Leveson

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solves a problem which is a failure of the police. What do you think

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about a royal charter if, as Natalie Fenton said, it is a

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stitch-up, a compromise in order to get the newspaper industry on

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boards and avoid statute in the way that David Cameron says he was

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worried about? Is it the perfect compromise? I think it is about the

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worst solution of a lot. Let me just tell you very briefly what the

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guidance says about royal charters. Once incorporated by Royal Charter,

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a body surrenders significant aspects of control of its internal

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affairs to the Privy Council. This effectively means a significant

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degree of government regulation of the affairs of a body. So

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government regulation, nobody can change it apart from the Government.

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John may have reservations about what Lord Leveson was proposing,

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but I would have thought it is nothing compared to the

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reservations he will have. I think you are right. This just hand over

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to the Government... To give you an example, the BBC a Royal Charter is

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the Royal Charter of the BBC. We had a long, long debate about his

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in the House of Lords, we made proposals about the management

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structure at the top of the BBC where everyone agreed with us that

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there was nothing anyone could do about it because it depended upon

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what the Government decided, and the Government decided against us.

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What do you want to see? Leveson. In its entirety? Yes. I think there

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has been a, frankly, hysterical reaction to Leveson, because all it

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is saying is we should have a body which the press will set up and we

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should have a checking mechanism which would have to be set out by

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statute. But if I may make this last point, on the Royal Charter,

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as far as I understand it it will need legislation to make it work.

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Quite well all the opposition to legislation goes at that point, I'm

:14:41.:14:51.
:14:51.:15:03.

It puts politicians in control. The recognition process specify his

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what is acceptable press code. shouldn't they be accountable in

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the end to something? What is wrong with that? The question is why the

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press should be more accountable to Parliament and anyone else. Why

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those people whose job it is to look at what politicians are doing

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wrong, should be more accountable. If you look at the pressure that

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was put on the Daily Telegraph to not look at something, that

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demonstrates not putting politicians in control. The press

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have gone overboard and they have abused their position and as was

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being said before by Hacked Off there were lots of people out there

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whose rights have been trashed. police failed to prosecute criminal

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offences. It is not that, it is the culture. The culture inside the

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newspapers to allow that to happen is the problem. Let's come back to

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that main principle which is the excesses of the press, the Last

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chance Saloon, that something had to be done. Do you agree with that?

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I agree very much with what Lord Powell has said. They abused their

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power. They can destroy people's reputations within minutes. People

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were left, individuals, to fight them through the courts, by which

:16:45.:16:50.

time all the damage has been done. Of course it is vital to protect

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freedom of speech, but it has to be responsible freedom of speech. For

:16:56.:17:01.

some reason in this country it had got out of control. We have an

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unusual situation in this area in that people with wealth can

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suddenly by a newspaper and start influencing what that newspapers

:17:09.:17:14.

said and that has to be controlled. I think it has to be independently

:17:14.:17:20.

monitored. Self regulation clearly did not work. But if you set up a

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regulatory body which is either in statute or by Royal Charter, is

:17:24.:17:27.

there a fear that editors of newspapers would have to ring

:17:27.:17:32.

members of that body when they want to run a story like expenses in

:17:32.:17:38.

order to check they are going to be allowed to do so? No, they would

:17:38.:17:42.

employ lawyers as they do now to look at the story to decide whether

:17:42.:17:47.

or not it complies with regulations. But rather than having to waste

:17:47.:17:50.

enormous amounts of money on lawyers you should be able to

:17:50.:17:56.

quickly get resolution. That is vital. Now if you want to stop

:17:56.:18:01.

something, you can go and get an injunction, but after that there is

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a great big legal process. You have got to prove that you were right to

:18:06.:18:12.

get that injunction. Your position of not having any press regulation

:18:12.:18:19.

in that sense... The law is still there. We have failures in our

:18:19.:18:23.

legal system which is not accessible to ordinary people. That

:18:23.:18:30.

is the big problem. We need to stop the big problems. We have just made

:18:30.:18:35.

a proposal in the House of Lords on exactly that. The issues are ones

:18:35.:18:40.

that if we are saying you can only have freedom of speech and less it

:18:40.:18:45.

is responsible, there are great dangers of putting the politicians

:18:45.:18:51.

through ministerial order. Leveson said to change statute requires

:18:51.:18:57.

another statute, but that is not true. Both of you seem to disagree

:18:57.:19:02.

with your party leaders on this issue. Yes, we both disagree.

:19:02.:19:08.

are you going to do? I was the first person who raised in

:19:08.:19:12.

Parliament the scandal and app remained consistent look out.

:19:12.:19:17.

are you going to say to David Cameron? What I am saying to you

:19:17.:19:23.

now have. I am not suddenly going to change my view on this. Reform

:19:23.:19:29.

is well overdue, 70 years overdue some would think. What is being

:19:29.:19:33.

proposed by Leveson is a very moderate reform and infinitely

:19:33.:19:39.

better than a royal charter. It is a year since the Government put in

:19:39.:19:44.

place its changes to the NHS's struck Jeff in England. The

:19:44.:19:49.

original proposals caused such a furore they had to be modified. But

:19:49.:19:53.

has a package of reforms eventually passed made any difference?

:19:53.:19:57.

There was a time when Andrew Lansley and the Government's health

:19:57.:20:04.

reforms were not every day news, but news every day. Then a year ago

:20:04.:20:09.

the legislation that had angered many and confused some sympathetic

:20:09.:20:14.

to reform passed and suddenly the news. Away. What is actually

:20:14.:20:19.

happening? What can we see? Critics claim reform is stalling because

:20:19.:20:23.

the plans were designed for a country that had public money,

:20:23.:20:26.

others that they are adapting and progressing even more creatively

:20:27.:20:32.

because of the economic climate. These reforms were a big risk,

:20:32.:20:37.

absolutely enormous. Whether things were have bedded down in a couple

:20:37.:20:43.

of years' time, it is too early to say. Quite apart from hospitals are

:20:43.:20:47.

designed for the 21st century the Government wanted to design an NHS

:20:47.:20:54.

that was fit for the 21st century. But as politicians you have only

:20:54.:20:59.

got five years for us as consumers to really notice a difference.

:20:59.:21:04.

was a tough passage of legislation, there were arguments, arguments

:21:04.:21:08.

within and between the Government and outside groups. What you will

:21:08.:21:14.

see this here is patience starting to see what the actual reality is

:21:14.:21:21.

of that for them. That reality comes foremost in April as GPs

:21:21.:21:24.

offer more information about what treatments are available to

:21:24.:21:29.

patients, more choice of where you can go to get it, and what you can

:21:29.:21:35.

get. But there is still that nagging issue of money. The NHS is

:21:35.:21:41.

a huge organisation. It is spending �300 million every day. It is like

:21:41.:21:46.

a big super tanker in some way. If you can get in the way of it and

:21:46.:21:51.

try and push it, but it ploughs on, and it will take some time before

:21:51.:21:56.

these things to come through and take some time before us who I

:21:57.:22:01.

study it to notice it. The reason why it has gone quiet is a couple

:22:01.:22:04.

of hundred 1000 people are reapplying for jobs because it has

:22:04.:22:09.

been an enormous a shake-up. The good news is that what these

:22:09.:22:13.

reforms have done is they have put the GPs on to the front foot and

:22:13.:22:16.

put them in a position where they are much more interested in

:22:16.:22:21.

prevention and keeping people out of hospital. But an awful lot of

:22:21.:22:25.

the infrastructure around them is in chaos at the moment. Add to that

:22:25.:22:29.

the new findings coming from the King's band that NHS finance

:22:29.:22:33.

managers have some very gloomy predictions for the year ahead, and

:22:33.:22:38.

the fact that most of us do not ascribe a good experience at the

:22:38.:22:43.

doctor's to Government reforms and the question that by 2015 the NHS

:22:43.:22:47.

has changed for the better will become harder to diagnose.

:22:47.:22:53.

I enjoyed by the shadow health minister Andrew Gwynne and the

:22:53.:22:57.

Conservative MP and she beat Philip Lee and Nicola Horlick is still

:22:57.:23:01.

here. In your position have you noticed any difference from the

:23:01.:23:06.

reforms? Not yet and I am not sure they really will be, especially if

:23:06.:23:11.

you have got a district set-up like we have in Hampshire. I do not

:23:11.:23:15.

think there is going to be a great deal of difference. In some ways

:23:15.:23:20.

that is a missed opportunity. The reforms have been watered down and

:23:21.:23:24.

all that is happening is a reshuffle of personnel who I going

:23:25.:23:30.

to be working for different organisations with different names.

:23:30.:23:35.

Of all that pain for not much difference? Indeed and I have some

:23:35.:23:40.

sympathy with that position. Things that you see in the news at the

:23:40.:23:43.

moment like Stafford Hospital is not to do with the change of

:23:43.:23:48.

commissioning. Commissioning in general terms was a positive move

:23:48.:23:52.

because you are putting things into the hands of the clinicians, but

:23:52.:23:57.

where I would agree is the challenge facing us now is one of

:23:57.:24:01.

structure and how we pay for it. But I thought the structure was

:24:01.:24:05.

supposed to have been changed by it all these top-down reforms that

:24:05.:24:11.

were criticised. Primary care structure. But has it been worth

:24:11.:24:17.

it? I think in time yes, it will have been worth it, but my concern

:24:17.:24:22.

is the capital cost means we cannot deal with the situations alike in

:24:22.:24:25.

Hampshire and in my patch in Berkshire. That is where I get

:24:25.:24:30.

frustrated. That is what matters to the punters and the constituents,

:24:30.:24:34.

they want these hospitals in their area to look after them. And that

:24:34.:24:40.

means closing others. You want to see bad hospitals close? It is

:24:40.:24:44.

inevitable we are going to have fewer acute sites in the future.

:24:44.:24:49.

And we should. All the research shows is that you need a population

:24:49.:24:54.

of at least 500,000 in order to provide things like radiotherapy.

:24:54.:24:59.

Some hospitals should close. there are MPs who have agreed with

:24:59.:25:05.

that, but then will we ever see an MP standing outside a hospital that

:25:05.:25:12.

is going to be closed saying, yes it should be closed, constituents.

:25:12.:25:18.

You are talking to me. You have done that. Yes, I have produced a

:25:18.:25:22.

report suggesting we need to merge acute trusts in my area which

:25:22.:25:28.

involved the closure of a side that has served my constituency. I will

:25:28.:25:32.

defend that site if they do not have a bigger plan, but I think it

:25:32.:25:35.

is in the best interest of my constituents to have a

:25:35.:25:40.

consolidation. That is a novel approach. Before the last general

:25:40.:25:44.

election we embarked on a programme of reconfiguration precisely for

:25:44.:25:48.

the reasons that have been out line because sometimes they deliver

:25:48.:25:53.

better health care outcomes and we had the then shadow Health

:25:53.:25:58.

Secretary, Andrew Lansley, and David Cameron, the leader of the

:25:58.:26:02.

opposition, appearing outside every hospital that was going to be

:26:02.:26:07.

downgraded. But Labour politicians have done that as well. Let me come

:26:07.:26:12.

to you in terms of which pits the now of the reforms would you

:26:12.:26:17.

reverse? We would repeal the Health and Social Care Act, but we are not

:26:17.:26:23.

going to embark on another top down a reorganisation. Is that not what

:26:23.:26:29.

would happen if you were to try and repeal the Act? No, and I hate to

:26:29.:26:34.

sound technical, but the actor is in three parts. Part one was about

:26:34.:26:37.

the Secretary of State's powers and we would re introduce the

:26:37.:26:44.

responsibility of the Secretary of State for the NHS. Part three was

:26:44.:26:48.

about competition and we would introduce the NHS as the preferred

:26:48.:26:54.

provider. Part two was about restructuring. Do you like the

:26:54.:26:59.

sound of that? I do not want another restructuring, but what is

:26:59.:27:02.

really important, and it is very difficult in this economic

:27:02.:27:08.

situation, it is to have money available for infrastructure. If

:27:08.:27:12.

you close a hospital, you want to create a new hospital that can

:27:12.:27:17.

accommodate more patients. The worst would be mergers which would

:27:17.:27:20.

involve bussing people around different sites. It is like when we

:27:20.:27:25.

got rid of grammar schools and secondary moderns. It is difficult

:27:25.:27:30.

to make that work. What we really need is a national plan for the NHS

:27:30.:27:36.

where we work out where we need our hospitals and capital injection and

:27:36.:27:41.

we need to build some new, acute care hospitals. Can I come to the

:27:41.:27:46.

proposals put forward by Andy Burnham, the idea of allowing local

:27:46.:27:51.

authorities to commission care. Why is that a good idea? What we want

:27:51.:27:57.

is whole person care. We want to stop the kind of mentality that has

:27:57.:28:03.

been part and parcel of our health care system where... It would

:28:03.:28:08.

politicise the commissioning of care. What we want to do is to

:28:08.:28:13.

ensure that the acute services, the primary care services through the

:28:13.:28:17.

clinical commissioning groups and the public health functions and the

:28:17.:28:22.

adult's social care all come together and in that way people

:28:22.:28:26.

approached the NHS as a single service rather than it being

:28:26.:28:31.

fragmented as it is at present. Would you like local authorities to

:28:31.:28:39.

commission care rather than GPs? Why not? The problem with

:28:39.:28:43.

commissioning, health care is very complex and quite a sophisticated

:28:43.:28:48.

business. When I look at hospitals, and this applies primarily to the

:28:48.:28:52.

previous Government, but I know my Government has done it, introducing

:28:52.:28:57.

a market in hospitals does not make any sense. If you have a heart

:28:57.:29:03.

attack, you want to go to the best hospital. You cannot compete to

:29:03.:29:08.

apply for that. There is a need for a national plan for acute and

:29:08.:29:13.

emergency care because you need to be able to look at the map and the

:29:13.:29:18.

demographics. I have requested this and said, this is what we need and

:29:18.:29:22.

I am getting nowhere. I have even spoken to colleagues on your side

:29:22.:29:26.

of the house. The problem is you are disconnecting and you are

:29:26.:29:29.

giving it to people who fundamentally do not understand

:29:29.:29:33.

health care and that would be problematic. We have to stop it

:29:33.:29:39.

there. This morning, MPs have been hearing evidence from Robert

:29:39.:29:43.

Francis who wrote the report into what went wrong at Mid

:29:43.:29:46.

Staffordshire NHS Trust where it is thought there were up to 1200

:29:47.:29:51.

additional deaths due to poor care. He was asked whether the current

:29:51.:30:01.
:30:01.:30:07.

chief executive of the NHS should It is not accurate to say nobody

:30:07.:30:13.

has resigned. At Foundation Trust level, those primarily responsible

:30:13.:30:17.

for the care of patients in the trust are no longer there, and I

:30:17.:30:21.

have made comments about the circumstances in which some of them

:30:21.:30:25.

left. That was the foundation for my recommendations in relation to

:30:25.:30:32.

fitness for office. I don't think it is right for me to comment. It

:30:32.:30:36.

is not far inquiry chairman to say what people should do following an

:30:36.:30:41.

inquiry, it is for them and those who employ them to consider the

:30:41.:30:46.

report. Frankly, that is the sort of question which should be

:30:46.:30:55.

addressed to them, not me. They are coming! LAUGHTER.

:30:55.:30:59.

It is incredible that they have been no major prosecutions, that

:30:59.:31:05.

nobody has been sacked. Should they be? Yes, absolutely. I am

:31:05.:31:09.

flabbergasted, to be honest, by the tone of the report. I have not read

:31:09.:31:14.

the whole report, just the executive summary. One section says

:31:14.:31:17.

that individuals and organisations are not responsible for their

:31:18.:31:21.

actions within a negative culture. That is the Nuremberg defence. I am

:31:22.:31:25.

sorry, if that action makes an impact on somebody's life, that

:31:25.:31:30.

person dies, they should be held responsible. If they are too

:31:30.:31:35.

stressed, as I gather the CEO was, why are we paying them a six-figure

:31:35.:31:45.

sum? Was it right to promote Sir David Nicholson? No. I fail to see

:31:45.:31:49.

how you can when this man was responsible, as I understand it,

:31:49.:31:52.

for the Strategic Health Authority at the time. I struggle with this

:31:52.:31:57.

because so much wrong was done. The details of what happened are

:31:57.:32:01.

atrocious and I fear it may be happening in other trusts, maybe

:32:01.:32:05.

not to the same degree. To not hold people responsible for this type of

:32:05.:32:10.

behaviour is disgraceful. Do you agree? I think people need to be

:32:10.:32:14.

held to account. They are paid quite large sums of money to do a

:32:14.:32:18.

job, quite clearly the job was not done properly, but there are much,

:32:18.:32:22.

much wider issues. It is very difficult at the moment for acute

:32:22.:32:27.

care hospitals to function. If I walk around our hospitals, the

:32:27.:32:31.

average age of the patients is probably about 85 years old, and

:32:31.:32:35.

many of them are not releasing Keane have to be in an acute care

:32:35.:32:38.

hospital but not well enough to go home, there was no one at home to

:32:38.:32:42.

look after them. -- many of them are not really sick enough to be in

:32:42.:32:47.

an acute care hospitals. We need some sort of step down facility to

:32:47.:32:52.

get these people out of acute care hospitals. We need to look very

:32:52.:32:55.

carefully at the Francis Report and take the recommendations extremely

:32:55.:33:00.

seriously. The danger is there will be knee-jerk reactions, one is that

:33:00.:33:04.

we go back to business as usual and say the NHS is operating perfectly

:33:04.:33:10.

well... Nobody is saying that and nobody is advocating that. This

:33:10.:33:13.

happened on Labour's watch, thousands of people died who did

:33:13.:33:20.

not have to and Labour presided over the whole period. Andy Burnham

:33:20.:33:25.

instructed France's to commission the first reports, and as I say we

:33:26.:33:29.

need to look very seriously at the recommendations in this Francis

:33:29.:33:33.

Report. What I would say is that the other reaction that I think

:33:33.:33:38.

would be wrong from the Francis Report is to completely trashed the

:33:38.:33:41.

NHS and completely trashed the professionals, clinicians and

:33:41.:33:46.

nurses working in the NHS. Things have gone very badly wrong at

:33:46.:33:48.

Stafford Hospital and we need to look very carefully at what has

:33:48.:33:54.

gone wrong. Was it a lack of accountability in the Mid-

:33:54.:33:58.

Staffordshire Trust, a lack of supervision, a problem of

:33:58.:34:02.

governance? Coup was to blame? think there has been chronic

:34:02.:34:07.

mismanagement at every level... the managers should resign or be

:34:07.:34:11.

prosecuted? Absolutely they are accountable for their actions,

:34:11.:34:17.

there Hospital, they should really look very carefully at what the

:34:17.:34:22.

Francis Report has said went wrong. If a hospital is to operate

:34:22.:34:24.

properly you need a good relationship between clinicians and

:34:24.:34:29.

managers, there clearly was not that correct chemistry going on

:34:29.:34:34.

between those individuals in that organisation. It is all very well

:34:34.:34:37.

blaming the management, but doctors and nurses surely could tell if

:34:37.:34:43.

people were being mistreated, or should have said something at the

:34:43.:34:49.

time? Aren't they equally to blame? Of course. The tenure of the

:34:49.:34:52.

executive summary is that somehow you can construct systems to make

:34:52.:34:57.

human beings, system so perfect nobody needs to be good, to quote T

:34:57.:35:02.

S Eliot. Ultimately, you are human or you're not. I would say the

:35:02.:35:06.

culture introduced by the previous administration of targets,

:35:06.:35:09.

delivering financial targets which you could print and an election

:35:09.:35:14.

card pledge, leads to the inhumane care provided. To try to suggest

:35:14.:35:17.

that somehow the Labour government... I am not saying they

:35:17.:35:20.

meant to do this, but to suggest that the culture you introduced was

:35:21.:35:26.

not part of the problem, I think, is wrong. Do you think it was an

:35:26.:35:30.

unseen consequence? I think, and Andy Burnham has acknowledged...

:35:30.:35:34.

The targets were wrong? Targets are not wrong, they have brought down

:35:34.:35:39.

waiting times, they have brought down... And the cover up -- current

:35:39.:35:43.

government uses them as well. The problem at Mid Staffordshire

:35:43.:35:47.

and possibly one or two other trusts has been the implementation,

:35:47.:35:51.

they treated patients as numbers, they brought in a tick box approach.

:35:51.:35:58.

We need to go back to treating patients as people with real needs.

:35:58.:36:02.

Stafford and that trust were serving 230,000 people. When Nicola

:36:03.:36:07.

is right, the hospital is struggling to provide the acute and

:36:07.:36:11.

emergency care. For the nurses and doctors is is extremely difficult

:36:11.:36:13.

to provide the care if your hospital does not have the

:36:13.:36:17.

facilities, the staffing or whatever. It feeds back into what

:36:17.:36:26.

we said previously, we have too many acute hospital sites. Do you

:36:26.:36:33.

engage at board level?... At day wards level? Our board go around

:36:33.:36:38.

and our governors do mystery shopper checks, they will suddenly

:36:38.:36:40.

appear and inspect commodes in the ward and make sure it is clean,

:36:41.:36:45.

talk to the patients, ask them about their experience. Say you

:36:45.:36:49.

have a ward with 15 very old people, half of whom are suffering from

:36:49.:36:53.

severe dementia, and the trolley arrives at lunchtime with 15 hot

:36:53.:36:57.

meals and you have three nurses and it takes half-an-hour to feed each

:36:57.:37:02.

patient, how on earth are they meant to cope? It is

:37:02.:37:06.

extraordinarily difficult, even in the best hospitals. Our nurses are

:37:06.:37:10.

all fantastic and working night and day to get this right. So we need

:37:10.:37:15.

to spend more money to employ more staff? Absolutely. One of the

:37:15.:37:17.

things that the Francis Report identified was that at Mid-

:37:18.:37:21.

Staffordshire, at a time of real growth in the NHS, there were

:37:21.:37:25.

staffing problems. It happened at a time when so much money was going

:37:25.:37:31.

into the NHS. And record numbers of nurses, we have lost 5000 on the

:37:31.:37:35.

watch of this government. We have 14 trusts being investigated for

:37:35.:37:40.

mortality rates. As a time when in the last 10 years you did, you

:37:40.:37:44.

doubled the spend. If it was simply about spending money, it would be

:37:44.:37:48.

easy. You have to be very careful looking at mortality rates. We have

:37:48.:37:52.

a culture where people go to hospital to die a lot of the time,

:37:52.:37:57.

50% of people die in hospital, partly because relatives move away,

:37:57.:38:00.

there is nobody to care for them and they are dumped in a hospital

:38:00.:38:06.

to die, which is terrible. It comes back to the social care issue.

:38:06.:38:09.

afraid I will have to leave it there, thank you, gentlemen, for

:38:09.:38:13.

joining us. Is the culture in our banking

:38:13.:38:18.

industry changing? The chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland appeared

:38:18.:38:20.

before the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards yesterday and

:38:20.:38:25.

said Stephen Hester, the chief executive, is modestly paid. Just a

:38:25.:38:30.

you know, his annual packages around �7.8 million. I don't think

:38:30.:38:35.

it is hyperbole to say that he is dealing with a challenging and

:38:35.:38:43.

demanding jobs. RBS was the biggest banking firm in the world. Stephen

:38:43.:38:48.

took it on at an exceptionally difficult time. He has also, in his

:38:48.:38:53.

four years in charge, been paid well below the market rate for a

:38:53.:38:58.

job in world banking. Nicola, is he being paid well below

:38:58.:39:02.

the market rate, Stephen has to? Probably, but the question is

:39:02.:39:07.

whether the market rate is the right rate. We have seen huge

:39:07.:39:10.

inflation in banking salaries and bonuses. We have been infected by

:39:10.:39:14.

what was going on in the States, we had these longer than telephone-

:39:14.:39:18.

number salaries. Headhunting started to go global and we are

:39:18.:39:21.

saying, you need somebody from an American investment bank to come

:39:21.:39:26.

over and run this British bank. As a result, salaries have gone up and

:39:26.:39:30.

up and up. In the old days, what we hadn't the banks was you would be

:39:30.:39:35.

paid a relatively small amount in terms of your actual salary and

:39:35.:39:39.

then the bonus depended on how the bank did. A portion of the bank

:39:39.:39:44.

profits, usually around 20%, would be set aside to cover bonuses. I

:39:44.:39:48.

think we have lost that link and people have contractual right to

:39:48.:39:53.

very large sums. If you look at Stephen Hester and what he has done

:39:53.:39:58.

in terms of, as they would argue, transforming the bank, and it has

:39:58.:40:03.

gone global, how can one bank or British-based banks be the ones

:40:03.:40:08.

paying hat -- paying far below the market rate if that is the case?

:40:08.:40:12.

think Stephen felt that you very much had to forgo bonuses and so on

:40:12.:40:16.

previously because there was a real spotlight on him and what was going

:40:16.:40:20.

on. The truth of the matter is he has done a very good job. I should

:40:20.:40:25.

declare an interest, I have known him since we were 18, we were at

:40:25.:40:29.

university and he is an old friend. But looking at it is passionately

:40:29.:40:34.

and objectively, he has done a very good job for us, actually, the

:40:34.:40:39.

public who, in effect, on that bank. If you don't pay and the market

:40:39.:40:43.

rate, will you go off and do something else? Isn't that just a

:40:43.:40:48.

myth? I don't know. I think he feels a real sense of

:40:48.:40:51.

responsibility and a desire to sort it out, he probably wouldn't walk

:40:51.:40:56.

away, but that is for the board to decide. They have to make that

:40:56.:41:02.

judgment. What he potentially walk away and leave them in the lurch?

:41:02.:41:05.

Bonuses are one thing, but there was also news coming from a

:41:05.:41:09.

slightly different quarter, Barclays Bank, this morning, they

:41:09.:41:12.

are axing jobs in their investment banking division and reducing the

:41:12.:41:17.

amount available to pay bonuses. Chief Executive Antony Jenkins has

:41:17.:41:22.

waived his own bonus this year and suggests that the culture at the

:41:22.:41:26.

Bank, mired in the LIBOR scandal, was changing. It is about building

:41:26.:41:29.

a better Barclays, what we call the go to a bank. It is about running

:41:30.:41:34.

it in line with our purpose and values but also about delivering

:41:34.:41:38.

great returns for shareholders, that is the plan we are laying out.

:41:38.:41:42.

Do you believe Antony Jenkins? He says the culture has changed, he

:41:42.:41:47.

waived his bonus last year. Symbolic and financially real, in

:41:47.:41:50.

that sense. But if they are starting from Ground Zero, can they

:41:50.:41:57.

do it? I think he is a genuine person who does want to change the

:41:57.:42:01.

culture of Barclays. But it is like a supertanker, it is an enormous

:42:01.:42:05.

organisation, you cannot change it literally overnight, but I believe

:42:05.:42:09.

him when he says he wants to attempt to change the culture. I

:42:09.:42:13.

sometimes think that maybe this is to do with the fact that we don't

:42:13.:42:18.

have wards any more, to any great extent. All the testosterone is

:42:18.:42:22.

thrown into the City, that is the battleground, and the rewards are

:42:22.:42:26.

these excessive salaries and bonuses. I think you need to

:42:26.:42:30.

temperate, calm it down, stop people behaving in this incredibly

:42:30.:42:34.

irresponsible manner which has caused as enormous problems. We are

:42:34.:42:38.

going to see the results of everything what -- which went wrong

:42:38.:42:42.

in 2007 for decades, there does not seem to be light at the end of the

:42:42.:42:47.

tunnel currently. Many people would argue that banks should be punished

:42:47.:42:52.

further. But in the way that Antony Jenkins -- Antony Jenkins has set

:42:52.:42:58.

out, you could argue that what is so dramatic about Goldman Sachs

:42:58.:43:03.

getting rid of 10% every year to get rid of the dead wood, so are

:43:03.:43:08.

they making dramatic steps? There is a hire-and-fire culture in these

:43:08.:43:11.

organisations and they have these cults on a regular basis, the

:43:11.:43:18.

workforce goes up and down pretty rapidly. -- they have these culls.

:43:18.:43:22.

But it is about the culture, how they do business and whether it is

:43:22.:43:25.

ethical. Investment banks are one thing, high-street banks are

:43:25.:43:30.

completely different. Barclays is a hybrid bank. One of the issues we

:43:30.:43:33.

have at the moment is that banks are not giving money to businesses,

:43:33.:43:39.

not lending to any great extent. They will enter a third seed

:43:39.:43:44.

company... Not a small business. The majority of businesses in this

:43:44.:43:47.

country of small businesses and they cannot borrow, we really need

:43:47.:43:52.

to focus on that. From the point of view of Barclays, I am not

:43:52.:43:55.

particularly concerned with the investment banking side, I'm

:43:55.:43:58.

concerned about the High Street. Thank you.

:43:58.:44:02.

Who are Britain's most powerful women? Other than the ones in this

:44:02.:44:07.

studio, of course! Radio 4 think they know and have unveiled the 100

:44:07.:44:11.

women who have made the Woman's Hour Power List. One of the judges,

:44:11.:44:18.

Oona King, joins me. Who got the top three slip -- slots? It is

:44:18.:44:23.

unbelievable, the Queen won, can you believe it(!) But it was only

:44:23.:44:28.

this last week that she went to number one. In the top 20 we have

:44:28.:44:33.

thanked them, then we have put the rest, the following 80, they are

:44:33.:44:38.

just an alphabetical order, it is a bit too hard! We have also done it

:44:38.:44:44.

in terms of groups like politics, arts, culture etc. It was really

:44:44.:44:48.

interesting, the discussion between soft power and hard power. I am

:44:49.:44:53.

more at the heart power end, but those women who really influence us

:44:53.:44:57.

with the ability to make another generation listen, we must take

:44:57.:45:02.

them into account. The criteria, between hard and soft power, what

:45:02.:45:06.

other things did you look at in terms of the most powerful and

:45:06.:45:10.

influential women? We had to be sure we went excluding whole groups.

:45:10.:45:14.

I have no idea who the most powerful women are in terms of

:45:14.:45:18.

engineering or genetic research in science, we had to take expert

:45:18.:45:21.

advice and be careful when we looked at business, are we taking

:45:22.:45:27.

into account the turnover in terms of shares, what sort of matrix are

:45:27.:45:30.

we using to measure the power? But what comes out from the list, the

:45:30.:45:36.

key message, his first day that it is not as diverse as we might

:45:36.:45:41.

wanted to be. -- his first the that it is not as diverse. I am not just

:45:41.:45:46.

talking about ethnicity, although seven out of 100 are from ethnic

:45:46.:45:50.

minority backgrounds, but also social diversity and class and how

:45:50.:45:54.

women managed to break the glass ceiling. It seems as though we have

:45:54.:45:58.

not made Joe boot made as much progress as we would help. But

:45:58.:46:02.

looking down the list, you will not recognise many names of some of

:46:02.:46:06.

these women because they have huge power and influence but they are

:46:06.:46:10.

not in immediate talking about the froth that might come along here

:46:10.:46:14.

and there, they are at an underlying level talking about how

:46:14.:46:19.

things -- changing how things happen in Britain. Which women did

:46:19.:46:23.

well in politics? You would expect the Home Secretary to be there, she

:46:23.:46:28.

was number two, on the other side of politics there are people like

:46:28.:46:32.

Harriet Harman and people like Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP deputy

:46:32.:46:39.

from Scotland to. There are women that did not make the list who use

:46:40.:46:43.

social media in a way, for instance, in politics that in a few years'

:46:43.:46:47.

time will very much have them on the list, people like Stella

:46:47.:46:51.

Creasey, who has done impressive things by reaching out far beyond

:46:51.:46:55.

the usual range that politicians can reach out to people with,

:46:55.:47:00.

people like Gloria Del Piero. I think we will have a different

:47:00.:47:03.

looking list and it will be even more different outside politics,

:47:03.:47:08.

where social media has made the transition between hard power and

:47:08.:47:18.
:47:18.:47:27.

You can see the full list on the women's our website. So, women can

:47:27.:47:32.

have it all, but what about men? What about in the domestic sphere?

:47:32.:47:41.

How accepting his society of men who look after, cook and clean?

:47:41.:47:44.

Michael Reeves is giving a lecture tonight about The Symmetrical

:47:44.:47:51.

Family. Where men and women have an equal opportunity to go to work and

:47:51.:47:57.

earn money, or an equal opportunity to stay at home and raise children.

:47:57.:48:02.

We leave behind the gender roles that we attach to men, that we have

:48:02.:48:06.

mostly managed to leave behind that we attach to women. We are halfway

:48:06.:48:15.

in a sense that we have seen the conversation we had just had and

:48:15.:48:18.

the conversation earlier about how much there was too much

:48:18.:48:23.

testosterone in the city. Saying that you are a career man or in

:48:23.:48:28.

working father might sound a bit weird, and until it does not sound

:48:28.:48:36.

weird, means we cannot have absolute equality. You cannot have

:48:36.:48:39.

equality unless men changed as well. It is interesting looking at it

:48:39.:48:44.

instead of women pushing at the glass ceiling we have got will

:48:44.:48:47.

almost encourage men to be proud of taking a more central role at home.

:48:47.:48:53.

What do you say to that? Things have changed dramatically and men

:48:53.:48:57.

do an awful lot more in the home than they used to. I do not think

:48:57.:49:04.

they did terribly much with babies a few decades ago as now they are

:49:04.:49:09.

prepared to change nappies these days. I have come across a few men

:49:09.:49:13.

who have stayed at home and looked after the family, but quite often

:49:13.:49:18.

they get frustrated and eventually return to the workplace. I think

:49:18.:49:22.

men are programmed to go and hunt and gather and women are programmed

:49:22.:49:28.

to stay at home and nurture to an extent. Often what happens is were

:49:28.:49:32.

meant work and still go and buy the food and do the cooking and do the

:49:32.:49:36.

cleaning. Actually, women end up doing both and are completely

:49:36.:49:42.

frazzled and exhausted. That is one outcome, they end up working a

:49:42.:49:46.

double shift and end up being exhausted. I think those attitudes

:49:46.:49:51.

are the problem. If we say men are programmed to go and hunt and

:49:51.:49:55.

gather and women are programmed to look after kids, then we should

:49:55.:50:00.

accept that the pay gap will be here forever. You'll get a gap in

:50:00.:50:07.

boardrooms. I am just asking is it possible? I do not think it is a

:50:07.:50:12.

cultural thing. I think it is mostly a cultural challenge. For

:50:12.:50:16.

example, the Government has said it will make almost all maternity

:50:16.:50:22.

leave transferable between men and women. But men cannot breast-feed.

:50:22.:50:27.

That is right, but maybe they can make some decisions in the first

:50:27.:50:33.

six months. We leave it to them to decide, but you are right it is

:50:33.:50:38.

mostly cultural. The US military are put in women on the front line.

:50:38.:50:42.

We have had a women Prime Minister and we have completely changed

:50:42.:50:49.

about the way women are in society. I meant up for this? I think some

:50:50.:50:53.

art and some I not, like the feminist somewhere ahead of the

:50:53.:51:01.

curve and others needed to be convinced. But there are more women

:51:01.:51:04.

graduating from British universities than men, so it seems

:51:04.:51:08.

to be entirely unsustainable to have a labour market based on the

:51:08.:51:12.

idea that that is the man's World and something has to give. It is

:51:12.:51:17.

either exhausted women, badly raised children or up real gender

:51:17.:51:23.

equality. You say you would like to see more men to get on that role.

:51:23.:51:27.

What could Government do to encourage it? Well, child care is a

:51:27.:51:32.

major issue, the cost of it, so I am not sure it men should have to

:51:32.:51:35.

stay at home and look after children. We should be investing

:51:35.:51:41.

more in childcare. My PA has just been on maternity leave and her

:51:41.:51:45.

husband is a film-maker and she is a PA, and they both want to work,

:51:45.:51:48.

but they cannot afford more than three days a week of childcare and

:51:48.:51:54.

she is having to work less. That is true for so many people. If you add

:51:54.:51:58.

in the cost of getting to work. A lot of people cannot afford to live

:51:59.:52:02.

in central London, and then it becomes economic for people to work.

:52:02.:52:07.

Child care is a major issue. It is not just a matter of who stays at

:52:07.:52:12.

home to look after the children. I think both should be able to go out

:52:12.:52:16.

and work and both should have an economic future and we as a society

:52:16.:52:20.

should have a better way of looking after children. There is nothing

:52:20.:52:24.

preventing men from doing this. There is nothing preventing men

:52:24.:52:31.

from engaging more at home, is there? Currently women can take a

:52:31.:52:35.

year off in maternity and men can take two weeks of, so there is a

:52:35.:52:43.

very big a symmetry in legal rights to take time off. The recent

:52:43.:52:50.

Government announced men could attend antenatal clinics. I am not

:52:50.:52:54.

claiming some conspiracy against men, but we need to recognise the

:52:54.:52:58.

assumptions about the role of men are still there. Child care is

:52:59.:53:02.

important and the Government is doing more on that, but I do not

:53:02.:53:07.

think the way to gender equality is for women to work the way men have

:53:07.:53:10.

always done and sub-contract the child-rearing to others. We are

:53:10.:53:15.

looking for something a bit better than that. Are you old enough to

:53:15.:53:20.

remember the political drama series house of cards? It's not an

:53:20.:53:25.

ambitious Francis Urquhart played by Ian Richardson try and find his

:53:25.:53:29.

way up the political greasy pole. It has now been adapted for an

:53:29.:53:34.

American audience with Kevin Spacey taking the lead role as an American

:53:34.:53:38.

Democrat Frank Underwood. We will be speaking to the author Michael

:53:38.:53:42.

Dobbs who is an executive producer on the new series. Let's remind

:53:42.:53:46.

ourselves of the original drama and also take a look at Kevin Spacey in

:53:47.:53:56.
:53:57.:54:03.

action. Don't you see I had to do it. How could I have ever trusted

:54:03.:54:13.
:54:13.:54:15.

her? You might very well think that I could not possibly comment.

:54:15.:54:21.

exactly may I help you? You must know the administration's

:54:21.:54:31.
:54:31.:54:31.

legislated agenda. I'm May. Will you tell me? What will your guess

:54:31.:54:38.

be? In migration, tax reform is not sexy enough, it is education,

:54:38.:54:44.

everyone can get behind children. Is that education? You might very

:54:44.:54:48.

well think that, I could not possibly comment. That

:54:48.:54:53.

unforgettable phrase. The author of the House of Cards, Michael Dobbs,

:54:53.:54:58.

is here with us now. Have they kept true to the original version? Have

:54:58.:55:05.

you kept true to the original version? It is treated the spirit.

:55:05.:55:09.

But the Americans have have poured so much money into it. It is a

:55:09.:55:15.

superb series. In 13 hours it does not even get as far as the BBC's

:55:15.:55:19.

original four hours, so it goes into new territory, but plays

:55:19.:55:24.

wonderful homage to the original. Everybody there, the directors and

:55:24.:55:28.

the writers, they were all inspired by that brilliant original series.

:55:28.:55:34.

I cannot we forget Ian Richardson playing Francis Urquhart, I did not

:55:34.:55:38.

think anybody would be able to match that look and that crushing

:55:38.:55:48.

comment. Does he? Kevin Spacey? feel as if I should give -- be

:55:48.:55:53.

given a gold medal. Yes, how did you get Kevin Spacey? He plays in a

:55:53.:55:59.

different way. Ian had some pretty camp humour. Kevin Spacey is much

:55:59.:56:06.

darker. But he was pretty dark. but this is much darker. This is

:56:06.:56:12.

the west wing for where waltz. He has just come off a global tour of

:56:12.:56:18.

Richard the Third and it is like he was using that as his training for

:56:18.:56:23.

this. Shakespeare's and Berlin into his new role. What was it like

:56:23.:56:27.

adapting it from a British political system into the American

:56:27.:56:31.

political system at which is different? It is different, but it

:56:31.:56:38.

is the same. They have whips there, but they have more power, more

:56:38.:56:43.

money and bought interests. It gives a whip even more possibility

:56:43.:56:48.

of manipulation. It is not about Britain and America, it is about

:56:48.:56:52.

power and people. I am not comparing myself to Shakespeare,

:56:52.:56:56.

but it is what Shakespeare it knew and understood. It is not about

:56:56.:56:59.

systems, it is about people and what motivates them and where they

:56:59.:57:05.

go wrong. Did you watched the original series? Yes, I loved the

:57:05.:57:10.

original. I will definitely download it and watch it. I think

:57:10.:57:16.

Kevin Spacey is a very good villain. He is very good at chilling roles.

:57:17.:57:22.

He is not just a television actor. He took the Old Vic Theatre from

:57:22.:57:27.

where it was going to be turned into a theme bar and has made it

:57:27.:57:31.

one of the great cultural forces of today. He has all that quality

:57:31.:57:37.

which he pours into this series. Clyde could you not keep the name

:57:37.:57:46.

Urquhart? They could not possibly pronounce it. Do you think there is

:57:46.:57:50.

always a real-life Francis Urquhart behind the scenes politically?

:57:50.:57:54.

only people I have ever upset as far as I am aware in politics are

:57:54.:57:59.

those who have come up to me and have said was Francis Urquhart me?

:57:59.:58:05.

I had said, No It was not you, and they go away totally crestfallen.

:58:05.:58:09.

That is all for today. Thank you to Nicola Horlick for being our guest

:58:09.:58:13.

today. The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One. Andrew

:58:13.:58:18.

and I will be here tomorrow at 11:30am. We will leave you with

:58:18.:58:22.

some of the highlights of the annual parliamentary pancake race

:58:22.:58:27.

which was run this morning. MPs took on teams from the House of

:58:27.:58:31.

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