Browse content similar to 12/02/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. They press | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
regulator established by Royal Charter, will it be enough to | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
prevent another phone hacking type scandal? The Government publishes | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
proposals this afternoon. Barclays slims down its investment | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
banking operations and says they are clamping down on bonuses, but | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
has the City culture changed? Up to 1200 die as a result of poor | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
care in Stafford Hospital. There has been a 2000 page report, but | :01:08. | :01:14. | |
why has no one resigned? House of Cards is back on our | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
screens. Its author, Michael Dobbs, joins us live - but is it as good | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
with an American accent? You might very well think that, I couldn't | :01:23. | :01:30. | |
possibly comment. All that in the next hour. With us | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
for the programme is the businesswoman Nicola Horlick, | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
welcome. First today, University graduate | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
Cait Reilly has won her Court of Appeal claimed that requiring her | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
to work for free at a Poundland discounts caught -- store was | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
unlawful. Three judges in London ruled that the regulations under | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
which most of the Government back- to-work schemes were created do not | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
comply with the law and has quashed them. A few minutes ago, Cait | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
Reilly's solicitor spoke about it. We can speak to our political | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
correspondent. How damaging is this for the back-to-work schemes? | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
are playing this down, saying they will table new regulations so they | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
comply with the law, but the table like -- the solicitor outside the | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
court who has just won this case says it is a huge setback for the | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
Department of Work and Pensions, that there is confusion within the | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
department and she has raised the possibility that thousands of | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
people who have had benefits docked for not complying with these | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
schemes will have to have that money paid back. We have had | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
reaction from the Employment Minister, he says the court has | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
backed the Government right to require people to take part in the | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
programmes which will help get them back to work, he says it is | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
ridiculous to call it forced Labour. This has not been ruled unlawful on | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
the grounds of the compulsion. The judges have backed the Government, | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
saying they can run these schemes. The problem is with the regulations | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
they have not explained enough about the sanctions, about the | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
detail of these programmes, in Parliament. So it has gone beyond | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
what Parliament originally approved, that is why the Government says it | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
will rewrite regulations. Does this mean that somebody in the position | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
of Cait Reilly, who is already working for free somewhere, which | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
you could call work experience, will not be forced to go into a | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
government back-to-work scheme at Poundland, for example? The whole | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
point of this is a back-to-work scheme, it is supposed to give | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
people an extra skill to help them get into the workplace. I suppose | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
that was part of the problem, this woman was already doing voluntary | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
work in a museum, she was a graduate. She says she is not above | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
working in a supermarket, she does that part-time, but she felt it was | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
wrong that she was taken away from looking at -- looking for work and | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
another voluntary job to do a job in Poundland, which she felt would | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
not lead to employment. A Work and Pensions Select Committee has | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
looked into this and that is their problem. They do not have the | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
problem with the compulsion, but you have to have a scheme which | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
will give people extra skills which may lead to employment, otherwise | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
there is no point. Nicola Horlick, in principle, do you support the | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
idea that the Government can require young people in this | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
particular case to take up unpaid work experience or lose benefits? | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
do actually support that. I think they have to make sure that the | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
work is suitable for the person and their qualifications. That is what | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
this lady was arguing against an seems to have won on. I don't think | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
it is appropriate to stick a graduate in Poundland when she | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
might want to do museum work long term and was already volunteering | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
in a museum. I think the Government needs to get a whole lot of | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
companies to sign up to provide work experience. I do it all the | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
time, I allow graduates to work with us for a couple of weeks or | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
maybe even longer in order to have something to put on their CV. That | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
can be formalised. There are all sorts of charitable organisations | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
trying to do this, but having some formality and linking it to | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
benefits, I don't think that is a bad idea. It is important for | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
people to have things on their CV in order to get into employment. | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
But if companies, or the right sort of companies, don't come forward | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
with the right sort of work experience...? I think they will. | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
Most people in positions of power in the workplace wants to help, | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
because everybody knows there is a major issue with youth unemployment | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
and we don't wanted to get to the proportions that today's inns, say, | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
Spain. One of the problems with making people work longer before | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
they can draw their pensions is that people at the other Wrens, | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
coming out of university, are trying to get into the workplace | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
and it is very hard. They need to distinguish themselves, in order to | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
do that they need work experience. What about the issue of being paid? | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
The argument was that any work experience is better than sitting | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
at home, but if you will not be paid...? You are being paid a | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
benefit, that is the thing. There have been so many debates over the | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
years with the workfare concept, which in areas of the United States | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
they have not introduced, and quite successfully. I think there is | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
nothing wrong with the idea of workfare, so long as it is | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
organised in the right way and people are getting the right sort | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
of experience. Of somebody wants to be a plumber, why not send them | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
along to somebody who will train them or give them experience so | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
they know what being a plumber is like? | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
If this afternoon, the Government is expected to outline the measures | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
it thinks are necessary to prevent a repeat of the press excesses | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
leading to the phone hacking scandal. Lord Justice Leveson | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
published his long awaited 2000 page report at the end of November | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
last year, declaring that the press had wreaked havoc with the lives of | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
ordinary people. Lord Leveson said that the pressured continue to be | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
self-regulated but there should be a new press standards body created | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
by the Industry, complete with new code of conduct. Crucially, he said | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
it should be backed by legislation. It is whether to have the statutory | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
underpinning that has split the political parties. David Cameron | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
and many in his party opposed to Parliament legislating to regulate | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
the press, preferring a Royal Charter. This is a way of setting | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
up a body as a single legal entity, and once it is established it can't | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
be amended by parliament, which legislation could be. At the time | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
Leveson was published, Nick Clegg indicated some specific concerns | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
about Ofcom's role as the Independent verify of the new | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
watchdog. Labour said they supported the central | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
recommendations made in the report and published a draft bill to prove | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
it could be done. Has David Cameron managed to bring out below back -- | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
Ed Miliband onside and bring a consensus around the Royal Charter. | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
Natalie Fenton of the campaigning group Hacked Off joins me now. Can | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
you tell us what the government responses are? The Royal Charter | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
looks like it has tried to implement some of Leveson, but has | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
not done so very well. It would seem, and I have not seen the final | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
version so why can't comment in great detail, it would seem that it | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
does not fulfilled the requirement of Leveson to be independent and | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
effective. That meant independence from politicians and press, and | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
effective in terms of delivering protection and redress for the | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
public as well as safeguarding protection for the integrity of | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
journalists. It seems like the Royal Charter does not deliver on | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
those crucial accounts. As I understand it, royal charters are | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
legally binding documents that can set out powers, rules and other | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
responsibilities of a body, so why can't it deliver, in broad terms, | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
what Leveson was saying? something is Independent it | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
literally can't have interference from the industry and politicians. | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
If you are going to set up a body with industry and put into who will | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
be the chair, who will be on the board, that is really problematic - | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
- something with industry input. Royal charters are designed to be | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
independent of the industry that they are there to regulate. | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
seems that the chair of the appointments panel will be selected | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
by parliament... Actually, not by Parliament, by ministers. It will | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
simply be appointed. The other people on the appointments panel, | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
one of them will be there to represent the interests of the | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
industry. The whole idea of the appointments panel is that it does | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
not represent the interests of industry at all, it is there to be | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
entirely independent. What do you fear if this is what will be | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
established, this royal charter with representation from ministers | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
and the industry? Sadly, it looks like the industry has persuaded the | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
Government to do their bidding. That introduces a major problem for | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
us and for victims. If that is the way it proceed without any further | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
amendment, we simply can't support it at all. Do you think Lord | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
Justice Leveson would agree with you that these proposals are the | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
wrong way to go? He would absolutely agree with us. The | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
majority of these recommendations are breached in this Royal Charter. | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
What do you make of the Government are not introducing this with great | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
fanfare? I think the whole process has been rather undemocratic. There | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
has been very little consultation over the whole Royal Charter. They | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
were talking to hacked off for a little while and then they stopped | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
talking to us, they started talking to the press, but it should have | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
been in the public domain, they should have been public | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
concentration's consultation on how this Royal Charter functions. It | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
has been announced without any consultation and there could be a | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
bid to force it through in that form. Natalie Fenton, thank you. | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
Conservative peer Lord Balad and Liberal Democrat MP John Hemming | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
joined me. Do you share Natalie's fears that this is a stitch-up | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
behind closed doors and will not establish any of the | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
recommendations that Lord Justice Leveson put forward? My concern is | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
to keep the politicians' hands of things like the regulatory code. | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
There is a problem with statute, it puts politicians in charge of the | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
regulatory code. This is not statute in that sense. A Royal | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
Charter is potentially worse. Because it is within the gift of | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
the Privy Council, which is more controlled by the Government than | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
the Queen, we face a bigger problem with the Royal Charter than statute, | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
potentially. Do you think phone hacking could happen again under | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
eight Royal Charter? The phone hacking scandal was about the | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
police not prosecuting criminal offences and sweeping them under | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
the carpet as being unimportant. I am not sure myself why Lord Leveson | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
solves a problem which is a failure of the police. What do you think | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
about a royal charter if, as Natalie Fenton said, it is a | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
stitch-up, a compromise in order to get the newspaper industry on | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
boards and avoid statute in the way that David Cameron says he was | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
worried about? Is it the perfect compromise? I think it is about the | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
worst solution of a lot. Let me just tell you very briefly what the | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
guidance says about royal charters. Once incorporated by Royal Charter, | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
a body surrenders significant aspects of control of its internal | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
affairs to the Privy Council. This effectively means a significant | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
degree of government regulation of the affairs of a body. So | :13:17. | :13:25. | |
government regulation, nobody can change it apart from the Government. | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
John may have reservations about what Lord Leveson was proposing, | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
but I would have thought it is nothing compared to the | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
reservations he will have. I think you are right. This just hand over | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
to the Government... To give you an example, the BBC a Royal Charter is | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
the Royal Charter of the BBC. We had a long, long debate about his | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
in the House of Lords, we made proposals about the management | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
structure at the top of the BBC where everyone agreed with us that | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
there was nothing anyone could do about it because it depended upon | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
what the Government decided, and the Government decided against us. | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
What do you want to see? Leveson. In its entirety? Yes. I think there | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
has been a, frankly, hysterical reaction to Leveson, because all it | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
is saying is we should have a body which the press will set up and we | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
should have a checking mechanism which would have to be set out by | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
statute. But if I may make this last point, on the Royal Charter, | :14:30. | :14:37. | |
as far as I understand it it will need legislation to make it work. | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
Quite well all the opposition to legislation goes at that point, I'm | :14:41. | :14:51. | |
:14:51. | :15:03. | ||
It puts politicians in control. The recognition process specify his | :15:03. | :15:10. | |
what is acceptable press code. shouldn't they be accountable in | :15:10. | :15:17. | |
the end to something? What is wrong with that? The question is why the | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
press should be more accountable to Parliament and anyone else. Why | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
those people whose job it is to look at what politicians are doing | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
wrong, should be more accountable. If you look at the pressure that | :15:30. | :15:39. | |
was put on the Daily Telegraph to not look at something, that | :15:39. | :15:49. | |
demonstrates not putting politicians in control. The press | :15:49. | :15:58. | |
have gone overboard and they have abused their position and as was | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
being said before by Hacked Off there were lots of people out there | :16:02. | :16:10. | |
whose rights have been trashed. police failed to prosecute criminal | :16:10. | :16:17. | |
offences. It is not that, it is the culture. The culture inside the | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
newspapers to allow that to happen is the problem. Let's come back to | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
that main principle which is the excesses of the press, the Last | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
chance Saloon, that something had to be done. Do you agree with that? | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
I agree very much with what Lord Powell has said. They abused their | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
power. They can destroy people's reputations within minutes. People | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
were left, individuals, to fight them through the courts, by which | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
time all the damage has been done. Of course it is vital to protect | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
freedom of speech, but it has to be responsible freedom of speech. For | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
some reason in this country it had got out of control. We have an | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
unusual situation in this area in that people with wealth can | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
suddenly by a newspaper and start influencing what that newspapers | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
said and that has to be controlled. I think it has to be independently | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
monitored. Self regulation clearly did not work. But if you set up a | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
regulatory body which is either in statute or by Royal Charter, is | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
there a fear that editors of newspapers would have to ring | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
members of that body when they want to run a story like expenses in | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
order to check they are going to be allowed to do so? No, they would | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
employ lawyers as they do now to look at the story to decide whether | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
or not it complies with regulations. But rather than having to waste | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
enormous amounts of money on lawyers you should be able to | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
quickly get resolution. That is vital. Now if you want to stop | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
something, you can go and get an injunction, but after that there is | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
a great big legal process. You have got to prove that you were right to | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
get that injunction. Your position of not having any press regulation | :18:12. | :18:19. | |
in that sense... The law is still there. We have failures in our | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
legal system which is not accessible to ordinary people. That | :18:23. | :18:30. | |
is the big problem. We need to stop the big problems. We have just made | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
a proposal in the House of Lords on exactly that. The issues are ones | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
that if we are saying you can only have freedom of speech and less it | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
is responsible, there are great dangers of putting the politicians | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
through ministerial order. Leveson said to change statute requires | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
another statute, but that is not true. Both of you seem to disagree | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
with your party leaders on this issue. Yes, we both disagree. | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
are you going to do? I was the first person who raised in | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
Parliament the scandal and app remained consistent look out. | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
are you going to say to David Cameron? What I am saying to you | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
now have. I am not suddenly going to change my view on this. Reform | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
is well overdue, 70 years overdue some would think. What is being | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
proposed by Leveson is a very moderate reform and infinitely | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
better than a royal charter. It is a year since the Government put in | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
place its changes to the NHS's struck Jeff in England. The | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
original proposals caused such a furore they had to be modified. But | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
has a package of reforms eventually passed made any difference? | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
There was a time when Andrew Lansley and the Government's health | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
reforms were not every day news, but news every day. Then a year ago | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
the legislation that had angered many and confused some sympathetic | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
to reform passed and suddenly the news. Away. What is actually | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
happening? What can we see? Critics claim reform is stalling because | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
the plans were designed for a country that had public money, | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
others that they are adapting and progressing even more creatively | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
because of the economic climate. These reforms were a big risk, | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
absolutely enormous. Whether things were have bedded down in a couple | :20:37. | :20:43. | |
of years' time, it is too early to say. Quite apart from hospitals are | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
designed for the 21st century the Government wanted to design an NHS | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
that was fit for the 21st century. But as politicians you have only | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
got five years for us as consumers to really notice a difference. | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
was a tough passage of legislation, there were arguments, arguments | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
within and between the Government and outside groups. What you will | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
see this here is patience starting to see what the actual reality is | :21:14. | :21:21. | |
of that for them. That reality comes foremost in April as GPs | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
offer more information about what treatments are available to | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
patients, more choice of where you can go to get it, and what you can | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
get. But there is still that nagging issue of money. The NHS is | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
a huge organisation. It is spending �300 million every day. It is like | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
a big super tanker in some way. If you can get in the way of it and | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
try and push it, but it ploughs on, and it will take some time before | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
these things to come through and take some time before us who I | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
study it to notice it. The reason why it has gone quiet is a couple | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
of hundred 1000 people are reapplying for jobs because it has | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
been an enormous a shake-up. The good news is that what these | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
reforms have done is they have put the GPs on to the front foot and | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
put them in a position where they are much more interested in | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
prevention and keeping people out of hospital. But an awful lot of | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
the infrastructure around them is in chaos at the moment. Add to that | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
the new findings coming from the King's band that NHS finance | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
managers have some very gloomy predictions for the year ahead, and | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
the fact that most of us do not ascribe a good experience at the | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
doctor's to Government reforms and the question that by 2015 the NHS | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
has changed for the better will become harder to diagnose. | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
I enjoyed by the shadow health minister Andrew Gwynne and the | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
Conservative MP and she beat Philip Lee and Nicola Horlick is still | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
here. In your position have you noticed any difference from the | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
reforms? Not yet and I am not sure they really will be, especially if | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
you have got a district set-up like we have in Hampshire. I do not | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
think there is going to be a great deal of difference. In some ways | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
that is a missed opportunity. The reforms have been watered down and | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
all that is happening is a reshuffle of personnel who I going | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
to be working for different organisations with different names. | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
Of all that pain for not much difference? Indeed and I have some | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
sympathy with that position. Things that you see in the news at the | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
moment like Stafford Hospital is not to do with the change of | :23:43. | :23:48. | |
commissioning. Commissioning in general terms was a positive move | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
because you are putting things into the hands of the clinicians, but | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
where I would agree is the challenge facing us now is one of | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
structure and how we pay for it. But I thought the structure was | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
supposed to have been changed by it all these top-down reforms that | :24:05. | :24:11. | |
were criticised. Primary care structure. But has it been worth | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
it? I think in time yes, it will have been worth it, but my concern | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
is the capital cost means we cannot deal with the situations alike in | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
Hampshire and in my patch in Berkshire. That is where I get | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
frustrated. That is what matters to the punters and the constituents, | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
they want these hospitals in their area to look after them. And that | :24:34. | :24:40. | |
means closing others. You want to see bad hospitals close? It is | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
inevitable we are going to have fewer acute sites in the future. | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
And we should. All the research shows is that you need a population | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
of at least 500,000 in order to provide things like radiotherapy. | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
Some hospitals should close. there are MPs who have agreed with | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
that, but then will we ever see an MP standing outside a hospital that | :25:05. | :25:12. | |
is going to be closed saying, yes it should be closed, constituents. | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
You are talking to me. You have done that. Yes, I have produced a | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
report suggesting we need to merge acute trusts in my area which | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
involved the closure of a side that has served my constituency. I will | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
defend that site if they do not have a bigger plan, but I think it | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
is in the best interest of my constituents to have a | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
consolidation. That is a novel approach. Before the last general | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
election we embarked on a programme of reconfiguration precisely for | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
the reasons that have been out line because sometimes they deliver | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
better health care outcomes and we had the then shadow Health | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
Secretary, Andrew Lansley, and David Cameron, the leader of the | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
opposition, appearing outside every hospital that was going to be | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
downgraded. But Labour politicians have done that as well. Let me come | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
to you in terms of which pits the now of the reforms would you | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
reverse? We would repeal the Health and Social Care Act, but we are not | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
going to embark on another top down a reorganisation. Is that not what | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
would happen if you were to try and repeal the Act? No, and I hate to | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
sound technical, but the actor is in three parts. Part one was about | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
the Secretary of State's powers and we would re introduce the | :26:37. | :26:44. | |
responsibility of the Secretary of State for the NHS. Part three was | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
about competition and we would introduce the NHS as the preferred | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
provider. Part two was about restructuring. Do you like the | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
sound of that? I do not want another restructuring, but what is | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
really important, and it is very difficult in this economic | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
situation, it is to have money available for infrastructure. If | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
you close a hospital, you want to create a new hospital that can | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
accommodate more patients. The worst would be mergers which would | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
involve bussing people around different sites. It is like when we | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
got rid of grammar schools and secondary moderns. It is difficult | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
to make that work. What we really need is a national plan for the NHS | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
where we work out where we need our hospitals and capital injection and | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
we need to build some new, acute care hospitals. Can I come to the | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
proposals put forward by Andy Burnham, the idea of allowing local | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
authorities to commission care. Why is that a good idea? What we want | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
is whole person care. We want to stop the kind of mentality that has | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
been part and parcel of our health care system where... It would | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
politicise the commissioning of care. What we want to do is to | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
ensure that the acute services, the primary care services through the | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
clinical commissioning groups and the public health functions and the | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
adult's social care all come together and in that way people | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
approached the NHS as a single service rather than it being | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
fragmented as it is at present. Would you like local authorities to | :28:31. | :28:39. | |
commission care rather than GPs? Why not? The problem with | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
commissioning, health care is very complex and quite a sophisticated | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
business. When I look at hospitals, and this applies primarily to the | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
previous Government, but I know my Government has done it, introducing | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
a market in hospitals does not make any sense. If you have a heart | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
attack, you want to go to the best hospital. You cannot compete to | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
apply for that. There is a need for a national plan for acute and | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
emergency care because you need to be able to look at the map and the | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
demographics. I have requested this and said, this is what we need and | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
I am getting nowhere. I have even spoken to colleagues on your side | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
of the house. The problem is you are disconnecting and you are | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
giving it to people who fundamentally do not understand | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
health care and that would be problematic. We have to stop it | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
there. This morning, MPs have been hearing evidence from Robert | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
Francis who wrote the report into what went wrong at Mid | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
Staffordshire NHS Trust where it is thought there were up to 1200 | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
additional deaths due to poor care. He was asked whether the current | :29:51. | :30:01. | |
:30:01. | :30:07. | ||
chief executive of the NHS should It is not accurate to say nobody | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
has resigned. At Foundation Trust level, those primarily responsible | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
for the care of patients in the trust are no longer there, and I | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
have made comments about the circumstances in which some of them | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
left. That was the foundation for my recommendations in relation to | :30:25. | :30:32. | |
fitness for office. I don't think it is right for me to comment. It | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
is not far inquiry chairman to say what people should do following an | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
inquiry, it is for them and those who employ them to consider the | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
report. Frankly, that is the sort of question which should be | :30:46. | :30:55. | |
addressed to them, not me. They are coming! LAUGHTER. | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
It is incredible that they have been no major prosecutions, that | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
nobody has been sacked. Should they be? Yes, absolutely. I am | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
flabbergasted, to be honest, by the tone of the report. I have not read | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
the whole report, just the executive summary. One section says | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
that individuals and organisations are not responsible for their | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
actions within a negative culture. That is the Nuremberg defence. I am | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
sorry, if that action makes an impact on somebody's life, that | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
person dies, they should be held responsible. If they are too | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
stressed, as I gather the CEO was, why are we paying them a six-figure | :31:35. | :31:45. | |
sum? Was it right to promote Sir David Nicholson? No. I fail to see | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
how you can when this man was responsible, as I understand it, | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
for the Strategic Health Authority at the time. I struggle with this | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
because so much wrong was done. The details of what happened are | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
atrocious and I fear it may be happening in other trusts, maybe | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
not to the same degree. To not hold people responsible for this type of | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
behaviour is disgraceful. Do you agree? I think people need to be | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
held to account. They are paid quite large sums of money to do a | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
job, quite clearly the job was not done properly, but there are much, | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
much wider issues. It is very difficult at the moment for acute | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
care hospitals to function. If I walk around our hospitals, the | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
average age of the patients is probably about 85 years old, and | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
many of them are not releasing Keane have to be in an acute care | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
hospital but not well enough to go home, there was no one at home to | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
look after them. -- many of them are not really sick enough to be in | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
an acute care hospitals. We need some sort of step down facility to | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
get these people out of acute care hospitals. We need to look very | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
carefully at the Francis Report and take the recommendations extremely | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
seriously. The danger is there will be knee-jerk reactions, one is that | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
we go back to business as usual and say the NHS is operating perfectly | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
well... Nobody is saying that and nobody is advocating that. This | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
happened on Labour's watch, thousands of people died who did | :33:13. | :33:20. | |
not have to and Labour presided over the whole period. Andy Burnham | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
instructed France's to commission the first reports, and as I say we | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
need to look very seriously at the recommendations in this Francis | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
Report. What I would say is that the other reaction that I think | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
would be wrong from the Francis Report is to completely trashed the | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
NHS and completely trashed the professionals, clinicians and | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
nurses working in the NHS. Things have gone very badly wrong at | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
Stafford Hospital and we need to look very carefully at what has | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
gone wrong. Was it a lack of accountability in the Mid- | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
Staffordshire Trust, a lack of supervision, a problem of | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
governance? Coup was to blame? think there has been chronic | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
mismanagement at every level... the managers should resign or be | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
prosecuted? Absolutely they are accountable for their actions, | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
there Hospital, they should really look very carefully at what the | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
Francis Report has said went wrong. If a hospital is to operate | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
properly you need a good relationship between clinicians and | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
managers, there clearly was not that correct chemistry going on | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
between those individuals in that organisation. It is all very well | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
blaming the management, but doctors and nurses surely could tell if | :34:37. | :34:43. | |
people were being mistreated, or should have said something at the | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
time? Aren't they equally to blame? Of course. The tenure of the | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
executive summary is that somehow you can construct systems to make | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
human beings, system so perfect nobody needs to be good, to quote T | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
S Eliot. Ultimately, you are human or you're not. I would say the | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
culture introduced by the previous administration of targets, | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
delivering financial targets which you could print and an election | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
card pledge, leads to the inhumane care provided. To try to suggest | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
that somehow the Labour government... I am not saying they | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
meant to do this, but to suggest that the culture you introduced was | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
not part of the problem, I think, is wrong. Do you think it was an | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
unseen consequence? I think, and Andy Burnham has acknowledged... | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
The targets were wrong? Targets are not wrong, they have brought down | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
waiting times, they have brought down... And the cover up -- current | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
government uses them as well. The problem at Mid Staffordshire | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
and possibly one or two other trusts has been the implementation, | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
they treated patients as numbers, they brought in a tick box approach. | :35:51. | :35:58. | |
We need to go back to treating patients as people with real needs. | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
Stafford and that trust were serving 230,000 people. When Nicola | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
is right, the hospital is struggling to provide the acute and | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
emergency care. For the nurses and doctors is is extremely difficult | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
to provide the care if your hospital does not have the | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
facilities, the staffing or whatever. It feeds back into what | :36:17. | :36:26. | |
we said previously, we have too many acute hospital sites. Do you | :36:26. | :36:33. | |
engage at board level?... At day wards level? Our board go around | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
and our governors do mystery shopper checks, they will suddenly | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
appear and inspect commodes in the ward and make sure it is clean, | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
talk to the patients, ask them about their experience. Say you | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
have a ward with 15 very old people, half of whom are suffering from | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
severe dementia, and the trolley arrives at lunchtime with 15 hot | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
meals and you have three nurses and it takes half-an-hour to feed each | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
patient, how on earth are they meant to cope? It is | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
extraordinarily difficult, even in the best hospitals. Our nurses are | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
all fantastic and working night and day to get this right. So we need | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
to spend more money to employ more staff? Absolutely. One of the | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
things that the Francis Report identified was that at Mid- | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
Staffordshire, at a time of real growth in the NHS, there were | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
staffing problems. It happened at a time when so much money was going | :37:25. | :37:31. | |
into the NHS. And record numbers of nurses, we have lost 5000 on the | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
watch of this government. We have 14 trusts being investigated for | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
mortality rates. As a time when in the last 10 years you did, you | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
doubled the spend. If it was simply about spending money, it would be | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
easy. You have to be very careful looking at mortality rates. We have | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
a culture where people go to hospital to die a lot of the time, | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
50% of people die in hospital, partly because relatives move away, | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
there is nobody to care for them and they are dumped in a hospital | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
to die, which is terrible. It comes back to the social care issue. | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
afraid I will have to leave it there, thank you, gentlemen, for | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
joining us. Is the culture in our banking | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
industry changing? The chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland appeared | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
before the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards yesterday and | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
said Stephen Hester, the chief executive, is modestly paid. Just a | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
you know, his annual packages around �7.8 million. I don't think | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
it is hyperbole to say that he is dealing with a challenging and | :38:35. | :38:43. | |
demanding jobs. RBS was the biggest banking firm in the world. Stephen | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
took it on at an exceptionally difficult time. He has also, in his | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
four years in charge, been paid well below the market rate for a | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
job in world banking. Nicola, is he being paid well below | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
the market rate, Stephen has to? Probably, but the question is | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
whether the market rate is the right rate. We have seen huge | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
inflation in banking salaries and bonuses. We have been infected by | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
what was going on in the States, we had these longer than telephone- | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
number salaries. Headhunting started to go global and we are | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
saying, you need somebody from an American investment bank to come | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
over and run this British bank. As a result, salaries have gone up and | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
up and up. In the old days, what we hadn't the banks was you would be | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
paid a relatively small amount in terms of your actual salary and | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
then the bonus depended on how the bank did. A portion of the bank | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
profits, usually around 20%, would be set aside to cover bonuses. I | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
think we have lost that link and people have contractual right to | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
very large sums. If you look at Stephen Hester and what he has done | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
in terms of, as they would argue, transforming the bank, and it has | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
gone global, how can one bank or British-based banks be the ones | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
paying hat -- paying far below the market rate if that is the case? | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
think Stephen felt that you very much had to forgo bonuses and so on | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
previously because there was a real spotlight on him and what was going | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
on. The truth of the matter is he has done a very good job. I should | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
declare an interest, I have known him since we were 18, we were at | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
university and he is an old friend. But looking at it is passionately | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
and objectively, he has done a very good job for us, actually, the | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
public who, in effect, on that bank. If you don't pay and the market | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
rate, will you go off and do something else? Isn't that just a | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
myth? I don't know. I think he feels a real sense of | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
responsibility and a desire to sort it out, he probably wouldn't walk | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
away, but that is for the board to decide. They have to make that | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
judgment. What he potentially walk away and leave them in the lurch? | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
Bonuses are one thing, but there was also news coming from a | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
slightly different quarter, Barclays Bank, this morning, they | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
are axing jobs in their investment banking division and reducing the | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
amount available to pay bonuses. Chief Executive Antony Jenkins has | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
waived his own bonus this year and suggests that the culture at the | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
Bank, mired in the LIBOR scandal, was changing. It is about building | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
a better Barclays, what we call the go to a bank. It is about running | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
it in line with our purpose and values but also about delivering | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
great returns for shareholders, that is the plan we are laying out. | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
Do you believe Antony Jenkins? He says the culture has changed, he | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
waived his bonus last year. Symbolic and financially real, in | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
that sense. But if they are starting from Ground Zero, can they | :41:50. | :41:57. | |
do it? I think he is a genuine person who does want to change the | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
culture of Barclays. But it is like a supertanker, it is an enormous | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
organisation, you cannot change it literally overnight, but I believe | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
him when he says he wants to attempt to change the culture. I | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
sometimes think that maybe this is to do with the fact that we don't | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
have wards any more, to any great extent. All the testosterone is | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
thrown into the City, that is the battleground, and the rewards are | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
these excessive salaries and bonuses. I think you need to | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
temperate, calm it down, stop people behaving in this incredibly | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
irresponsible manner which has caused as enormous problems. We are | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
going to see the results of everything what -- which went wrong | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
in 2007 for decades, there does not seem to be light at the end of the | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
tunnel currently. Many people would argue that banks should be punished | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
further. But in the way that Antony Jenkins -- Antony Jenkins has set | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
out, you could argue that what is so dramatic about Goldman Sachs | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
getting rid of 10% every year to get rid of the dead wood, so are | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
they making dramatic steps? There is a hire-and-fire culture in these | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
organisations and they have these cults on a regular basis, the | :43:11. | :43:18. | |
workforce goes up and down pretty rapidly. -- they have these culls. | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
But it is about the culture, how they do business and whether it is | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
ethical. Investment banks are one thing, high-street banks are | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
completely different. Barclays is a hybrid bank. One of the issues we | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
have at the moment is that banks are not giving money to businesses, | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
not lending to any great extent. They will enter a third seed | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
company... Not a small business. The majority of businesses in this | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
country of small businesses and they cannot borrow, we really need | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
to focus on that. From the point of view of Barclays, I am not | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
particularly concerned with the investment banking side, I'm | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
concerned about the High Street. Thank you. | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
Who are Britain's most powerful women? Other than the ones in this | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
studio, of course! Radio 4 think they know and have unveiled the 100 | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
women who have made the Woman's Hour Power List. One of the judges, | :44:11. | :44:18. | |
Oona King, joins me. Who got the top three slip -- slots? It is | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
unbelievable, the Queen won, can you believe it(!) But it was only | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
this last week that she went to number one. In the top 20 we have | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
thanked them, then we have put the rest, the following 80, they are | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
just an alphabetical order, it is a bit too hard! We have also done it | :44:38. | :44:44. | |
in terms of groups like politics, arts, culture etc. It was really | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
interesting, the discussion between soft power and hard power. I am | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
more at the heart power end, but those women who really influence us | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
with the ability to make another generation listen, we must take | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
them into account. The criteria, between hard and soft power, what | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
other things did you look at in terms of the most powerful and | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
influential women? We had to be sure we went excluding whole groups. | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
I have no idea who the most powerful women are in terms of | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
engineering or genetic research in science, we had to take expert | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
advice and be careful when we looked at business, are we taking | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
into account the turnover in terms of shares, what sort of matrix are | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
we using to measure the power? But what comes out from the list, the | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
key message, his first day that it is not as diverse as we might | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
wanted to be. -- his first the that it is not as diverse. I am not just | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
talking about ethnicity, although seven out of 100 are from ethnic | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
minority backgrounds, but also social diversity and class and how | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
women managed to break the glass ceiling. It seems as though we have | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
not made Joe boot made as much progress as we would help. But | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
looking down the list, you will not recognise many names of some of | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
these women because they have huge power and influence but they are | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
not in immediate talking about the froth that might come along here | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
and there, they are at an underlying level talking about how | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
things -- changing how things happen in Britain. Which women did | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
well in politics? You would expect the Home Secretary to be there, she | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
was number two, on the other side of politics there are people like | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
Harriet Harman and people like Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP deputy | :46:32. | :46:39. | |
from Scotland to. There are women that did not make the list who use | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
social media in a way, for instance, in politics that in a few years' | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
time will very much have them on the list, people like Stella | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
Creasey, who has done impressive things by reaching out far beyond | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
the usual range that politicians can reach out to people with, | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
people like Gloria Del Piero. I think we will have a different | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
looking list and it will be even more different outside politics, | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
where social media has made the transition between hard power and | :47:08. | :47:18. | |
:47:18. | :47:27. | ||
You can see the full list on the women's our website. So, women can | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
have it all, but what about men? What about in the domestic sphere? | :47:32. | :47:41. | |
How accepting his society of men who look after, cook and clean? | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
Michael Reeves is giving a lecture tonight about The Symmetrical | :47:44. | :47:51. | |
Family. Where men and women have an equal opportunity to go to work and | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
earn money, or an equal opportunity to stay at home and raise children. | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
We leave behind the gender roles that we attach to men, that we have | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
mostly managed to leave behind that we attach to women. We are halfway | :48:06. | :48:15. | |
in a sense that we have seen the conversation we had just had and | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
the conversation earlier about how much there was too much | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
testosterone in the city. Saying that you are a career man or in | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
working father might sound a bit weird, and until it does not sound | :48:28. | :48:36. | |
weird, means we cannot have absolute equality. You cannot have | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
equality unless men changed as well. It is interesting looking at it | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
instead of women pushing at the glass ceiling we have got will | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
almost encourage men to be proud of taking a more central role at home. | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
What do you say to that? Things have changed dramatically and men | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
do an awful lot more in the home than they used to. I do not think | :48:57. | :49:04. | |
they did terribly much with babies a few decades ago as now they are | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
prepared to change nappies these days. I have come across a few men | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
who have stayed at home and looked after the family, but quite often | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
they get frustrated and eventually return to the workplace. I think | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
men are programmed to go and hunt and gather and women are programmed | :49:22. | :49:28. | |
to stay at home and nurture to an extent. Often what happens is were | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
meant work and still go and buy the food and do the cooking and do the | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
cleaning. Actually, women end up doing both and are completely | :49:36. | :49:42. | |
frazzled and exhausted. That is one outcome, they end up working a | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
double shift and end up being exhausted. I think those attitudes | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
are the problem. If we say men are programmed to go and hunt and | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
gather and women are programmed to look after kids, then we should | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
accept that the pay gap will be here forever. You'll get a gap in | :50:00. | :50:07. | |
boardrooms. I am just asking is it possible? I do not think it is a | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
cultural thing. I think it is mostly a cultural challenge. For | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
example, the Government has said it will make almost all maternity | :50:16. | :50:22. | |
leave transferable between men and women. But men cannot breast-feed. | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
That is right, but maybe they can make some decisions in the first | :50:27. | :50:33. | |
six months. We leave it to them to decide, but you are right it is | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
mostly cultural. The US military are put in women on the front line. | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
We have had a women Prime Minister and we have completely changed | :50:42. | :50:49. | |
about the way women are in society. I meant up for this? I think some | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
art and some I not, like the feminist somewhere ahead of the | :50:53. | :51:01. | |
curve and others needed to be convinced. But there are more women | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
graduating from British universities than men, so it seems | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
to be entirely unsustainable to have a labour market based on the | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
idea that that is the man's World and something has to give. It is | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
either exhausted women, badly raised children or up real gender | :51:17. | :51:23. | |
equality. You say you would like to see more men to get on that role. | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
What could Government do to encourage it? Well, child care is a | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
major issue, the cost of it, so I am not sure it men should have to | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
stay at home and look after children. We should be investing | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
more in childcare. My PA has just been on maternity leave and her | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
husband is a film-maker and she is a PA, and they both want to work, | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
but they cannot afford more than three days a week of childcare and | :51:48. | :51:54. | |
she is having to work less. That is true for so many people. If you add | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
in the cost of getting to work. A lot of people cannot afford to live | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
in central London, and then it becomes economic for people to work. | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
Child care is a major issue. It is not just a matter of who stays at | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
home to look after the children. I think both should be able to go out | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
and work and both should have an economic future and we as a society | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
should have a better way of looking after children. There is nothing | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
preventing men from doing this. There is nothing preventing men | :52:24. | :52:31. | |
from engaging more at home, is there? Currently women can take a | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
year off in maternity and men can take two weeks of, so there is a | :52:35. | :52:43. | |
very big a symmetry in legal rights to take time off. The recent | :52:43. | :52:50. | |
Government announced men could attend antenatal clinics. I am not | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
claiming some conspiracy against men, but we need to recognise the | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
assumptions about the role of men are still there. Child care is | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
important and the Government is doing more on that, but I do not | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
think the way to gender equality is for women to work the way men have | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
always done and sub-contract the child-rearing to others. We are | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
looking for something a bit better than that. Are you old enough to | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
remember the political drama series house of cards? It's not an | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
ambitious Francis Urquhart played by Ian Richardson try and find his | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
way up the political greasy pole. It has now been adapted for an | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
American audience with Kevin Spacey taking the lead role as an American | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
Democrat Frank Underwood. We will be speaking to the author Michael | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
Dobbs who is an executive producer on the new series. Let's remind | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
ourselves of the original drama and also take a look at Kevin Spacey in | :53:47. | :53:56. | |
:53:57. | :54:03. | ||
action. Don't you see I had to do it. How could I have ever trusted | :54:03. | :54:13. | |
:54:13. | :54:15. | ||
her? You might very well think that I could not possibly comment. | :54:15. | :54:21. | |
exactly may I help you? You must know the administration's | :54:21. | :54:31. | |
:54:31. | :54:31. | ||
legislated agenda. I'm May. Will you tell me? What will your guess | :54:31. | :54:38. | |
be? In migration, tax reform is not sexy enough, it is education, | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
everyone can get behind children. Is that education? You might very | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
well think that, I could not possibly comment. That | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
unforgettable phrase. The author of the House of Cards, Michael Dobbs, | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
is here with us now. Have they kept true to the original version? Have | :54:58. | :55:05. | |
you kept true to the original version? It is treated the spirit. | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
But the Americans have have poured so much money into it. It is a | :55:09. | :55:15. | |
superb series. In 13 hours it does not even get as far as the BBC's | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
original four hours, so it goes into new territory, but plays | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
wonderful homage to the original. Everybody there, the directors and | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
the writers, they were all inspired by that brilliant original series. | :55:28. | :55:34. | |
I cannot we forget Ian Richardson playing Francis Urquhart, I did not | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
think anybody would be able to match that look and that crushing | :55:38. | :55:48. | |
comment. Does he? Kevin Spacey? feel as if I should give -- be | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
given a gold medal. Yes, how did you get Kevin Spacey? He plays in a | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
different way. Ian had some pretty camp humour. Kevin Spacey is much | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
darker. But he was pretty dark. but this is much darker. This is | :56:06. | :56:12. | |
the west wing for where waltz. He has just come off a global tour of | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
Richard the Third and it is like he was using that as his training for | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
this. Shakespeare's and Berlin into his new role. What was it like | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
adapting it from a British political system into the American | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
political system at which is different? It is different, but it | :56:31. | :56:38. | |
is the same. They have whips there, but they have more power, more | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
money and bought interests. It gives a whip even more possibility | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
of manipulation. It is not about Britain and America, it is about | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
power and people. I am not comparing myself to Shakespeare, | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
but it is what Shakespeare it knew and understood. It is not about | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
systems, it is about people and what motivates them and where they | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
go wrong. Did you watched the original series? Yes, I loved the | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
original. I will definitely download it and watch it. I think | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
Kevin Spacey is a very good villain. He is very good at chilling roles. | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
He is not just a television actor. He took the Old Vic Theatre from | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
where it was going to be turned into a theme bar and has made it | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
one of the great cultural forces of today. He has all that quality | :57:31. | :57:37. | |
which he pours into this series. Clyde could you not keep the name | :57:37. | :57:46. | |
Urquhart? They could not possibly pronounce it. Do you think there is | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
always a real-life Francis Urquhart behind the scenes politically? | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
only people I have ever upset as far as I am aware in politics are | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
those who have come up to me and have said was Francis Urquhart me? | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
I had said, No It was not you, and they go away totally crestfallen. | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
That is all for today. Thank you to Nicola Horlick for being our guest | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
today. The One o'clock News is starting over on BBC One. Andrew | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
and I will be here tomorrow at 11:30am. We will leave you with | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
some of the highlights of the annual parliamentary pancake race | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
which was run this morning. MPs took on teams from the House of | :58:27. | :58:31. |