14/02/2013 Daily Politics


14/02/2013

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by Conservative peer Lord Heseltine to discuss Ed Miliband's speech on the economy as well as all the latest political news and debate.


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Welcome to The Daily Politics. Horsemeat infected with the anti-

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inflammatory butte has entered the food chain. The food standards

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agency has revealed that in the last few hours. We will bring you

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the latest. Labour make their pitch for the squeezed middle, saying

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they would hit the rich with a mansion tax and reintroduce the 10p

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starting rate of tax. Will be speaking live to the Shadow

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Chancellor. How many Bulgarians and Romanians will come to Britain when

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employment restrictions are lifted later this year? The government now

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admits they do have some figures, they just won't tell us. And it is

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50 years since Harold Wilson became Labour leader, but it seems some

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things don't change. They want to see this country standing. They are

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getting a little tired of seeing Britain pushed around. Harold

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Wilson's very romantic view. Jo and I will spend Valentine's Night

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tonight watching five hours on the Parliament channel, that's how

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romantic we are! All of that coming up in the next hour. With us for

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the duration, the golden oldie of the year. Only one of the many

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accolades that has gone to Michael Heseltine. The horsemeat scandal

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canters on, so do all the bad jokes. This morning, the chair of the

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Commons environment select committee has accused the FSA have

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been caught on the back foot. Ministers were in the chamber this

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morning to tell MPs of the results of the latest test. We can talk now

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to our health correspondent, Fergus Walsh. What people will want to

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know, is it safe to eat processed meat? The issue this morning is

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about beauty in a horsemeat. I've come from a briefing at DEFRA,

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where they have revealed that they've checked 206 horse carcasses

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and found that eight tested positive for the drug. Horsemeat,

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there are five abattoirs in the UK which are licensed to slaughter

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horses. About 9000 horses are exported every year. They found

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that eight were positive for phenylbutazone. Six were sent to

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France and may have entered the food chain. Whether or not any of

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those ended up in processed foods that ended up back on tables in the

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UK, well, we don't know. But the really interesting issue is some

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officials at the Chief Medical Officer's office have worked out

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how much you'd have to eat to get one dose of phenylbutazone. You'd

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have to eat between 500 to 600 horse burgers in a day to get a

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single human does of it. That would suggest a health safety risk is

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vanishingly small. That's an awful lot of burgers you'd have to eat.

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So are the government saying to the public, we are not taking processed

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meat off the shelves and are not going to ban imports from other

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countries? Absolutely. The government has been saying from the

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start that this is a food fraud, Amis labelling issue rather than a

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food safety issue. Obviously consumers are understandably

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suspicious if they can't trust what is on the labels. Is that stuff in

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their safe? So far, the evidence would seem to suggest that in terms

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of food safety there is not an issue here, not a serious issue.

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Although it's worth pointing out that processed food, eating lots of

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processed, cheap lasagne and Polonaise is not particularly good

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for your health and the long term. It does have a known increased risk

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of cancers. You really should be trying to steer clear of processed

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meat in the first place. The issue is trust. And whether or not the

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public is suspicious while tests are still ongoing. These are just

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the results from the first sets of tests on these carcasses. Should

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the government at an earlier stage have said, we are going to take

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more dramatic action, perhaps taken processed food off the shelves?

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don't think they should. The last point your commentator made, that

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burgers on not that good for your health and the longer term. Excuse

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me, are all these high salt, high- fat foods good for one's health?

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His smoking good for one's health? There are a whole range of issues

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that come in this category, in an advanced society balances have to

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be struck. I don't have any personal knowledge of this

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particular situation, although I do know that phenylbutazone is used to

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Amelia make pain in horses and sentenced -- certain circumstances.

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I listened to the food standards agency spokesman talking about a

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comprehensive range of cheques they have introduced. There's always a

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weak link in any change. Again, talking to a major retailer about

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the problem, he explained there are so many people in the chain of all

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these supply processors that trying to get 100 % certainty is extremely

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difficult. But isn't that the problem, people will feel they

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don't know what is in the food that they are buying because of the weak

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link you have just outlined? I'm in favour, as the government is in

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favour and the European authorities are in favour and the FSA are in

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favour, of trying to get that sorted out. But what I don't think,

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on any evidence I've seen, is that we have a panic, national scare on

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our hands. D you think the government has handled it well up

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until now? I think they'd been perfectly sensible, calm and

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balanced. We've been through these scares before. Take them seriously

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but, in my experience, none of them have proved to be anything like the

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scale of the headline which first attended their announcement. If you

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ate 600 hamburgers, you have a lot more to worry about than

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phenylbutazone. Something would get too long before that! A few weeks

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ago on the Sunday politics, I interviewed Eric Pickles, the

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Community's Secretary. I asked him how Britain's communities might be

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affected by an influx of Romanians and Bulgarians when restrictions on

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their ability to move across the EU, including into the UK, are lifted

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at the end of this year. Have you done any preliminary work on the

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implications for our housing demand as a result of this extra

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immigration? I know what number of borrowers are doing it. Have you?

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We have been looking into it. is the consequence, how many are

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you planning for? That's not something that I think would be

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helpful in terms of going through the numbers just yet. Why? Because

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I think you'd have to have a degree of confidence in terms of the

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numbers before I publicly state it. Inevitably what he said led to a

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Freedom of Information request. His department had told me that the

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figures Mr Pickles refers to do exist. Some reports had said they

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haven't been any at all. Let's get the latest from our correspondent.

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The request was from the New Statesman. Some ministers telling

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us these figures don't exist. Mr Pickles telling me that they do.

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He's just not going to tell us. What's the truth? It's all a bit

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confusing. Home Office ministers have been telling the House of

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Commons. The Home Office is clear, they say the figures on to there.

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The New Statesman and Labour both submitted Freedom of Information

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requests. Labour was pretty clear in a text of theirs, asking for an

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assessment of potential immigration from Romania and Bulgaria. As you

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mentioned, the communities department came back and said they

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did have that information but that they might not release it under

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freedom of information rules that allow them not to do so. I'm told

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by one source that figures, although it's not quite clear which

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figures, were discussed at a cabinet, a home affairs cabinet

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committee meeting. I can tell you for a fact that there is an

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independent assessment of the impact of this immigration. That

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has been produced independently for the Foreign Office. I'm told it has

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been knocking around white hope for some time. A draft was being read

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in the Foreign Office as long as a month or so ago. But that does not

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contain figures. It will not say a certain number of Romanians and

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Bulgarians expected, so it is still something of a mystery. The Home

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Office says there are no such figures. The Department of

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communities says it does have that information. All of this against

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the backdrop that when Labour tried to forecast how many new people

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would come over when the rules were changed, they got it disastrously,

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hugely and massively Bron. It is on that long list of things that Ed

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Miliband thinks that the former Labour government got one.

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According to the communities department, they verified what Mr

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Pickles told me, that there are some estimates of how many may come

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here but they are just not going to tell us. Is that the simple reply?

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They have been formally asked for the assessment of potential

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immigration from Romania and Bulgaria in a Freedom of

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Information letter. And in a response... Do they have it and are

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not going to tell us? They say, we hold it but we might not tell you

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under an exemption. On the face of it, it doesn't sit easily with what

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the Home Office says. None of this is going to make the questions go

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away about what Mr Pickles was thinking of when he had a chat with

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you. If these figures do exist, I'll come to whether they are any

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use in a minute, but if they do exist, should they be made public?

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The two issues are linked. Supposing they are rubbish. Should

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you produce a lot of figures which you don't think have any validity,

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get some headlines would create scares, or should you simply say,

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nobody knows. Nobody knew last time... They got it hopelessly

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wrong. But they know that now, Whitehall knows that, the

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government machine knows that. Their forward and they make more of

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an effort to get them rather more accurate this time? What I think

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they would do is to try and put in place machinery in order to make

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sure they anticipate the flows and tried to make sure they come within

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the targets that they've set. They've got time to do that. These

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targets, however you work it, they are but 2014. As a minister, and

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this is why I have great sympathy for Eric's point, because he knows

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that some London boroughs have been working on these figures, so he's

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got some figures from perhaps a few London boroughs. But as a minister,

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you can say to officials, look, what do you think? They will do

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their best. It is their best good enough, can it be good enough? And

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should you be forced, if you get presented with figures which are

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somebody's opinion, someone with a slide rule making calculations are,

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they may be right there may be wrong, should you be forced to put

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that information in the public domain when you yourself as a

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Minister regard it as highly doubtful, whether it's based on

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Loch? I think it's perfectly legitimate for a minister to save

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you don't know the answers to these questions. So why not going to put

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out scare stories which will be grossly exaggerated by the media

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and the parliamentary opposition. I'm shocked that you have revealed

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to the British people today that they still use slide rules in

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Whitehall. Look, this is the interesting thing. I don't they use

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in Whitehall because ministers get bits of paper with conclusions.

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do the assessments then? If ministers are so cynical about it...

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It would be perfectly fair to do an assessment which says, look, there

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could be this number, they could be that number. No one knows where it

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is. But it gives you, as a minister, an indication that you should be

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thinking about this problem, because they could be one, not

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there will be. The Prime Minister clearly thinks it's going to be a

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problem because he's asked his ministers to look at ways of

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restricting welfare benefits to the people who come in, housing, health

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services. The Prime Minister is dealing with the situation in the

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round. But he called a meeting, we know this because Downing Street

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briefed us, sparked by the prospect of Romanians and Bulgarians coming

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here at the end of the year. you have to see that in the context

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of the Government's immigration programmes, which are already

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getting down the number of immigrants. They are targeting to

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come down significantly further, including the Bulgarians and

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Romanians. But surely it would go up against the whole spirit of the

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European Union to have any restrictions on those coming in,

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who are full European Union members. Real politics. You can't have

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unbridled immigration without ministers being involved in the

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contrast than conflict. But Green movement of labour is a fundamental

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tenet, so how could you stop it? You can try to make sure I good

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information, if there are no jobs, their housing, no social... You can

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let people know that. The second thing about the whole Bulgarian and

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Romanian thing, there may be some people coming, and in some cases we

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might need them, if they got engineers then send them fast would

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be my advice, but there's the whole of Europe they may go to. There's

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probably more jobs in Germany than here. If you start looking at the

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number of these people who are going to leave their country, why

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assume they're coming here? I'm not, I'm saying if they want to come

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here, as part of our membership of the EU, we have no way of stopping

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them. As an obligation we let them in. Yes, I understand the policies.

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Equally, there are ways in which government, by education,

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advertisement, knowledge, local information... Don't come to

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Britain, we are rubbish! No, just we don't have a job for you.

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having a job in Britain may be better than not having a job in

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Bulgaria. But you've got to make sure they don't come for social

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security reasons. Under European rules they are entitled to. They

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are almost certainly more generous than their own. We can be sure of

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that. This is politics, you've got to deal with it, you've got to deal

:16:19.:16:29.
:16:29.:16:31.

with the public opinion David Cameron's speech last month

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on Britain's relationship with the EU was seen as one of the defining

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moments of his premiership. Its commitment to a referendum on a new

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deal with Europe delighted the Euro-sceptic wing of his party. But

:16:43.:16:47.

a new group of Conservative MPs launches today and are using the

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other part of the speech, the prime minister's commitment to the EU, as

:16:52.:16:54.

a rallying cry for the pro-European wing of the party to finally find

:16:54.:17:02.

its voice. All Conservatives agree on far more

:17:02.:17:10.

things in the European Union than we ever debate. Kenneth Clarke

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believes in fighting for Britain in Europe. Two men who could have led

:17:14.:17:17.

the Tory party, passionately arguing the case for Britain in

:17:17.:17:22.

Europe. A generation later, the present incumbent, trying to lead a

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party which increasingly looks like it could be heading in the opposite

:17:26.:17:30.

direction. There was a time when the Tory party was full of big

:17:30.:17:35.

beasts roaring the case for Europe. These days, it is the Euro-sceptics

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making all the noise and they may cause the withdrawal from the EU.

:17:41.:17:45.

But there are still Conservative MPs who think Europe is a good

:17:45.:17:48.

thing. They have been keeping their heads down, but now they are ready

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to rumble. We feel strongly that our voice has not been heard for

:17:53.:17:57.

many years. There are new people who have come into Parliament who

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want to ensure that we have a stronger focus. So we are setting

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up a group called the European Mainstream. It will be looking at

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ensuring that the Prime Minister's speech, the Bloomberg speech, is

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taking forward, and that the tone he struck will be sustained within

:18:19.:18:25.

the parliamentary party. The at Bloomberg speech was cheered to the

:18:25.:18:29.

rafters by Euro-sceptics, but the pro-Europeans were also inspired by

:18:29.:18:33.

David Cameron's commitment to the EU? How many of them are there?

:18:33.:18:37.

the past, only 20% of the party would be prepared to stick their

:18:37.:18:41.

head over the parapet. But after the Bloomberg speech, you will see

:18:41.:18:45.

more people coming out. I suspect there is actually a majority in

:18:45.:18:50.

favour of continuing membership of the EU. Here is one of them, Ben

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Wallace, Ken Clarke's parliamentary aide. He is ready to take on the

:18:55.:19:00.

party Euro-sceptics. They are good at getting their message across. I

:19:00.:19:03.

do not think it is accurate. They are clever at making the case that

:19:03.:19:07.

it is always somebody over the horizon's fault. We need to

:19:07.:19:12.

challenge that and say, you are wrong. We need to let the public

:19:12.:19:15.

make a clear decision based on the facts we put before them. The last

:19:16.:19:20.

Tory prime minister had a word for the other lot, one we can't use on

:19:20.:19:25.

a family show. But why have the pro-European wing of the

:19:25.:19:28.

Conservative Party let the Euro- sceptics drive the debate so far?

:19:28.:19:32.

With you have an emphatic Euro- sceptic calling for us to leave the

:19:32.:19:35.

European Union, it is wearing to get involved in an argument with

:19:35.:19:40.

him. But it has now got serious. This is a group of people who have

:19:40.:19:43.

arrived on the battlefield to are going to argue the case for

:19:43.:19:46.

continuing membership of the European Union. I believe

:19:46.:19:51.

progressively, we will be heard more and will win. Just as the

:19:51.:19:54.

Euro-sceptics welcome David Cameron's commitment to a

:19:54.:19:58.

referendum, European Mainstream will hold on to his promise to

:19:58.:20:02.

attempt to reform the EU from within. The wood we walk away from

:20:02.:20:04.

any other international organisation because the

:20:04.:20:08.

relationship was not absolutely as we would like? Relationships are

:20:08.:20:13.

difficult internationally. It needs courage, a brave vision and

:20:13.:20:17.

determination to get what we need for this country within Europe.

:20:18.:20:21.

Europe has done for even the most iconic of Tory leaders. To avoid

:20:21.:20:25.

the same fate, David Cameron must appease both sides in a fight which

:20:25.:20:29.

may be about to get more finely balanced.

:20:29.:20:33.

Joining me are two backbench Conservative MPs, Laura Sandys, we

:20:33.:20:37.

saw in the film, and Conor Burns, and Lord Heseltine is still with us.

:20:38.:20:43.

Laura Sandys, what exactly will the group do? Well, as the Prime

:20:43.:20:48.

Minister outlined, we need a clear vision for Europe. And that is with

:20:48.:20:52.

Britain at the heart of Europe. In the last six months, we have

:20:52.:20:55.

already achieved, whether it be the Chancellor making a case when it

:20:55.:21:01.

comes to banking decoration or last week, with the Prime Minister

:21:01.:21:06.

reducing the budget, we underestimate our voice in Europe.

:21:06.:21:09.

We as Conservatives, who have a clear view about Britain in Europe,

:21:10.:21:14.

want to make that case. You say your view is European Mainstream.

:21:14.:21:18.

But arguably, you could say that the dominant voice in the

:21:18.:21:26.

Conservative Party is Euro-sceptic. Would you agree? There are many

:21:26.:21:32.

views, but what we have had in the past is a passive pro-European

:21:32.:21:36.

voice. I would accuse myself of being complacent in many ways in

:21:36.:21:41.

making the case for Britain within Europe. That is now starting to

:21:41.:21:46.

emerge. We have a clear objective of a referendum, and I think you

:21:46.:21:50.

will see more Conservatives making the case for our role and

:21:50.:21:54.

leadership within Europe. But 30 MPs out of 304 Conservative MPs is

:21:55.:21:59.

about 10%. There are about 100 supporters of the fresh Start group,

:22:00.:22:04.

with that list of demands to be repatriated. So yours is still not

:22:04.:22:10.

be popular position within the party. I think it is growing, and

:22:10.:22:13.

it is 30 backbench Members of Parliament. If you look at

:22:13.:22:16.

ministers, you will see people who have been exposed to Europe who

:22:16.:22:21.

have achieved two things in Europe and would be of our view. Do you

:22:21.:22:25.

feel threatened by this new group emerging? Not in the slightest. I

:22:25.:22:28.

feel excited that we are having a debate about the future direction

:22:28.:22:33.

of Europe and Britain's place in it. The Prime Minister showed that far

:22:33.:22:39.

from being the heir to Blair, he was the heir to Bruges, the speech

:22:39.:22:43.

that Mrs Thatcher made. Europe is changing because of the failure of

:22:43.:22:46.

the single currency and France and Germany getting closer together.

:22:46.:22:49.

That will change Britain's relationship with the other

:22:50.:22:53.

countries. If David Cameron fails to negotiate a new deal that is

:22:53.:22:57.

good for Britain, you would advocate pulling out of the EU?

:22:57.:23:01.

do not think the Prime Minister will fail. The budget negotiations

:23:01.:23:09.

show that the dynamic is changing. The House of Commons sent a clear

:23:09.:23:12.

message. The Prime Minister achieved the cut in the Budget that

:23:12.:23:17.

people said he could not blow. there is a risk. If he can't

:23:17.:23:21.

renegotiate the deal, will you advocate that Britain pulls out of

:23:21.:23:25.

the EU? There is a risk to any negotiation. Michael Heseltine

:23:25.:23:31.

warned us that it would be calamitous not are going the single

:23:31.:23:36.

currency. Thank goodness we didn't. What would you say to those Euro-

:23:36.:23:39.

sceptics who say Britain should look for the exit if a deal cannot

:23:39.:23:43.

be renegotiated? There is nothing new in this European debate, and

:23:43.:23:47.

there are no new arguments. All the arguments I have listened to are

:23:47.:23:50.

the same ones I have listened to since the '50s. Except that there

:23:50.:23:59.

is an offer now that you can vote to come out. But the Prime Minister

:24:00.:24:05.

will argue to stay in, as will the other parties. And that will be the

:24:05.:24:09.

outcome. John Major has made a brilliant speech today in which he

:24:09.:24:18.

outlines the detail of the argument. It is good news about the battle

:24:18.:24:23.

being joined. And the official Conservative position, I think,

:24:23.:24:28.

will be one of support for broad European membership. If there was a

:24:28.:24:33.

symbolic event of the last few weeks, it was the fact that the

:24:33.:24:40.

prime minister, rightly, said, we will not increase the budget. That

:24:41.:24:44.

meant that the national leaders, not the commission, made a decision

:24:44.:24:49.

as to what should happen. That is the reality of Europe, and that is

:24:49.:24:54.

the point I have always believed. Britain is in Europe for Britain's

:24:54.:24:59.

self-interest. Howard you rage David Cameron's chances in terms of

:24:59.:25:04.

repatriating the long list -- how would you rate David Cameron's

:25:04.:25:08.

chances in terms of repatriating the list of demands? I have not

:25:08.:25:14.

seen the list of demands. But any demands? Many have said we cannot

:25:14.:25:24.
:25:24.:25:26.

have a pick and mix membership. it is Alan Carr. It always has been.

:25:26.:25:33.

-- it is and a carte menu. I can remember when the French were not

:25:33.:25:41.

members of NATO. Europe has always taken a pick-and-mix position. My

:25:41.:25:45.

view has always been that it is in Britain's self-interest to

:25:45.:25:49.

influence what happens on the Continent, so we have to be part of

:25:49.:25:53.

its institutions. And threatening an exit is a good part of that

:25:53.:25:59.

strategy? That is not the Prime Minister's strategy. John Major

:25:59.:26:03.

dealt with is clearly in his speech. The Prime Minister said, we want to

:26:03.:26:08.

stay in, but we need to change things. He has done one with the

:26:08.:26:11.

Budget. I could name other things he could put on the agenda. A Laura

:26:11.:26:17.

Sandys, when it comes to the call for repatriating powers, do you

:26:17.:26:21.

think, that if Britain fails to get those, we should still stay in the

:26:21.:26:26.

EU? The point is that Europe is not static, it is moving all the time.

:26:26.:26:31.

These deals are done on a daily basis. When re-engage with other

:26:31.:26:35.

countries and build alliances, we can make it happen for our national

:26:35.:26:42.

interest. I think actually, Michael, things have changed. The rest of

:26:42.:26:47.

the world is organising in regional bodies, whether that be south-east

:26:47.:26:51.

Asia, East Africa, West Africa. If we are not part of Europe, we are

:26:51.:26:58.

at the bottom of the list when it comes to trade negotiations and

:26:58.:27:03.

international engagement. I agree with that, but what you saw with

:27:04.:27:08.

Mrs Merkel on the budget, is that we have a new form of realpolitik

:27:08.:27:12.

in Europe. They want us to stay, but they understand that the

:27:12.:27:17.

relationship must change. That is why I am confident that the Prime

:27:17.:27:20.

Minister will get what he asks for and will be able to put the case

:27:20.:27:24.

for changing on the basis of a changed relationship with Europe

:27:24.:27:27.

and be successful. What about the group within the Conservative Party

:27:27.:27:30.

who will not be satisfied with that? They feel that the

:27:30.:27:35.

Conservative Party should need some sort of exit from the EU, that we

:27:35.:27:39.

would be better outside. How does David Cameron deal with such a loud

:27:39.:27:44.

voice in the Conservative Party? They are a loud voice, but a small

:27:44.:27:47.

number. The Prime Minister has to negotiate a better arrangement for

:27:47.:27:50.

Britain within Europe. He will bring the majority of the

:27:50.:27:54.

Conservative Party with him if he does that. The dynamic has now

:27:54.:27:57.

changed. We should not underestimate the significance of

:27:57.:28:02.

the Prime Minister going in and achieving that budget cut. It will

:28:02.:28:07.

change the nature of the relationship.

:28:07.:28:13.

Bismarck * realpolitik. You would not get that on Question Time.

:28:13.:28:16.

Among the powers the Government would like to wrest back from the

:28:16.:28:19.

EU are some of the 130 European crime and policing measures we are

:28:19.:28:24.

currently subject to. Yesterday, the Lords EU committee questioned

:28:24.:28:26.

the Home Secretary and the Justice Secretary about their plans for

:28:26.:28:34.

those opt-outs and what support they had for them.

:28:34.:28:40.

The Government put in their evidence. Dominic RADA was in

:28:40.:28:45.

support of the government. And there was the United Kingdom

:28:45.:28:49.

Independence Party. That is the total of those who support the

:28:49.:28:54.

government. All the others are against your proposal. Are you

:28:54.:29:00.

troubled by this? It is not the case, in the discussions we have

:29:00.:29:05.

had, that those parties are saying that every measure with in this

:29:05.:29:10.

list are ones that we have to opt back into and therefore should not

:29:10.:29:14.

go down the route of opting out. The of course we were having

:29:14.:29:19.

discussions about how useful certain measures are and what

:29:19.:29:22.

alternatives would exist if we did opt out of certain measures. Could

:29:22.:29:27.

we achieve the same names in other ways? By bilateral discussions?

:29:27.:29:33.

Potentially. There are areas where practical co-operation takes place

:29:33.:29:38.

today, not on the basis of a piece of EU legislation. Which measures

:29:39.:29:44.

do you say are directly detrimental to the interests of the UK?

:29:44.:29:54.
:29:54.:30:03.

All of these are still subject to negotiation. The discussions that

:30:03.:30:07.

are taking place with other member states and the commission are not

:30:07.:30:10.

at the level of us got into a list of items and saying, this one and

:30:10.:30:15.

that one. We are developing the process we have to go through. We

:30:15.:30:19.

are having those conversations. But we have to produce ourselves,

:30:19.:30:23.

before we get involved in a serious set of the decisions about the list,

:30:23.:30:27.

we will have to complete our own decision-making process. I'm afraid

:30:27.:30:31.

I can't give you a firm indication as to when we can basenji with such

:30:31.:30:38.

a list. Are you telling me you don't know what kind of lists?

:30:38.:30:41.

government has yet to take a final decision about what is on its

:30:41.:30:49.

initial list. The Justice Secretary and the Home Secretary before a

:30:49.:30:54.

Lords committee. We've got Michael Heseltine with us. 130 of these

:30:54.:30:58.

measures, and as I understand it become as a package, you have to

:30:58.:31:01.

get out of all of them, you can't just cherry-pick. Would this, in

:31:01.:31:07.

your view, ha Mark Bower ability to deal with crime across European

:31:07.:31:13.

laws? No, this is a technical issue. You have to opt out of the whole

:31:13.:31:17.

lot in order to start looking at what you want back-in. If you

:31:17.:31:23.

wanted to opt back into 139 of them, you still have to opt out of the

:31:23.:31:29.

140. It's a really technical thing. The issue, you then ask the

:31:29.:31:33.

substantive question - what our self-interest? Detecting crime,

:31:33.:31:39.

catching criminals. I'm not party to any of these dialogues but my

:31:39.:31:42.

certain knowledge is that the government will be sitting there

:31:42.:31:48.

and saying, how do each of these 140 help us in co-operation with

:31:48.:31:53.

our European colleagues to make the place say four or more lawful? My

:31:53.:31:58.

guess is they will come up with a conclusion that crime today is

:31:58.:32:02.

International, that criminals are overseas and that you've got to be

:32:02.:32:07.

able to get at them. Are we able to say, all right, we are coming out

:32:07.:32:11.

of the lot and then we will choose... Yes, we'll come back into

:32:11.:32:18.

that one and that one and that one. You can negotiate that. So the

:32:18.:32:24.

Commission could say, actually, you can't. My guess is it won't be the

:32:24.:32:29.

commission. This is not the Commission. This is ministers,

:32:29.:32:34.

sovereign, elected ministers making these decisions. They think it is

:32:34.:32:37.

churlish a bus to cherry-pick and therefore not be very helpful.

:32:37.:32:41.

might. But they've made themselves have a system where things could be

:32:41.:32:47.

improved. The Labour leader, Ed Miliband, has just finished making

:32:47.:32:55.

a speech in Bedford. With the 0NS, the Office for National Statistics,

:32:55.:32:58.

figures released this week showing that British workers are now

:32:58.:33:03.

earning no more in real terms than they did 10 years ago, and Labour

:33:03.:33:06.

are 12 points ahead in the latest opinion polls over the

:33:06.:33:10.

Conservatives, the Labour lead firming up in recent weeks. Have

:33:10.:33:13.

they therefore now got a winning message on living standards?

:33:13.:33:18.

Ed Miliband is promising to make the 2015 general election in living

:33:18.:33:21.

standards election. Asking people whether they feel better off than

:33:21.:33:24.

they did when the coalition government came to power. And

:33:24.:33:28.

trying to appeal to the squeezed metal. Yesterday, the Governor of

:33:28.:33:32.

the Bank of England said there was cause for optimism and that a

:33:32.:33:36.

recovery is in sight. But he warned that inflation was likely to remain

:33:36.:33:40.

stubbornly above its 2% target rate, putting further pressure on

:33:40.:33:44.

household budgets. The Governor pointed the finger at the

:33:44.:33:47.

government policies, saying that increases in university tuition

:33:47.:33:50.

fees and domestic energy bills are going to make it harder to bring

:33:50.:33:55.

inflation down. So Ed Miliband has chosen this moment to go to Bedford,

:33:55.:33:59.

the sight of Harold Macmillan's famous "we've never had it so good"

:33:59.:34:03.

speech, to argue that now voters are worrying they will never have

:34:03.:34:09.

it so good again. A one-nation Labour government led by me well

:34:09.:34:13.

put a fairer tax system at the heart of its new priorities. It is

:34:13.:34:18.

a crucial part of how we build an economy where everyone can play

:34:18.:34:24.

their part. A One Nation Labour Budget next month would lay the

:34:24.:34:28.

foundations for a recovery made by the many Qabun not just a few at

:34:28.:34:34.

the top of society. And let me tell you about one crucial choice we

:34:34.:34:38.

would make, it's different from this government and different from

:34:38.:34:43.

the last government. We will tax houses worth over �2 million. And

:34:43.:34:49.

we will use the money to cut taxes for working people. We will put

:34:49.:34:53.

right a mistake made by Gordon Brown in the last Labour government.

:34:53.:35:00.

We would use the money raised by a mansion tax to reintroduce a lower

:35:00.:35:04.

10p starting rate of tax. With the size of the band depending on the

:35:04.:35:11.

amount raised. This would benefit 25 million basic rate tax payers.

:35:12.:35:16.

And it would move Labour on from the past and put Labour way it

:35:16.:35:23.

should always have been. On the side of working people. The shadow

:35:23.:35:31.

chancellor, Ed Balls, joins us now from Bedford. Tell me, is the

:35:31.:35:36.

mansion tax a manifesto commitment? I think it is a very clear signal

:35:36.:35:39.

from us today that this is what we intend to do in government. You

:35:39.:35:43.

know that we've had a very clear rule, that we are not going to make

:35:44.:35:48.

our manifesto decisions until our manifesto. You only have to see

:35:48.:35:54.

George Osborne this week finally dropping a commitment he made in

:35:54.:35:58.

2007 on inheritance tax to know the dangers on hard manifesto

:35:58.:36:01.

commitments made two years before. We will not make commitments until

:36:01.:36:06.

the manifesto. The question you are asking is, does Labour want in

:36:06.:36:10.

government to reintroduce the 10p tax rate paid for by the Match

:36:10.:36:13.

Attax? Yes, they should do it now. In government we would do it now

:36:13.:36:17.

when it's what we want to do after the next election. At the risk of

:36:17.:36:21.

spelling out the obvious, you are not in Parliament at the moment.

:36:21.:36:26.

Are you pledging... Are you pledging to introduce a mansion tax

:36:26.:36:33.

if Labour is elected in 2015? answered the question very clearly.

:36:33.:36:38.

Pledges and manifestos wait until closer to the election. We are not

:36:38.:36:43.

going to make the mistake of past oppositions and make cast-iron

:36:43.:36:47.

pledges on tax spending until the manifesto. But we want to do this,

:36:47.:36:52.

we intend to do it, it's our plan to do it. In government we would do

:36:52.:36:56.

it now. If we had a manifesto it would be there. We intend to have

:36:56.:37:01.

this in our programme for the next government. Is the new starting

:37:01.:37:05.

rate of tax the manifesto commitment? Is the new 10p rate a

:37:06.:37:11.

manifesto commitment? As I said, we are saying today we want to put

:37:11.:37:17.

right the mistake of 20 -- 2007. We want to reinstate the 10p tax rate.

:37:17.:37:21.

We think that is fair and would help the economy and working people.

:37:21.:37:26.

We think it contrasts with David Cameron's top rate tax cut. We want

:37:26.:37:30.

to do this in government. We want to do this in government. We are

:37:30.:37:35.

going to wait until our manifesto until the manifesto. But we want in

:37:35.:37:39.

government in 2015 or sooner, to have a man to tax on properties

:37:39.:37:43.

above �2 million, to pay for a new starting rate of tax at 10p. When

:37:43.:37:49.

you were at the Treasury, you looked at the mansion tax and

:37:49.:37:55.

rejected it several times. Why, what's changed your mind? I'm not

:37:55.:38:01.

sure whether we ever looked in detail at the mansion tax. I'm not

:38:01.:38:06.

sure if that is right. I'm trying to think back to those days. We

:38:06.:38:10.

rate stamp duty on high-value properties. But the idea of a

:38:10.:38:15.

mansion tax on the value was first proposed by the Liberal Democrats

:38:15.:38:18.

in the 2010 manifesto. We said last year a number of times that we'd

:38:18.:38:22.

like to do that. I've got some shadow Treasury work going on

:38:23.:38:26.

looking at that. I've said that Vince Cable and George Osborne,

:38:26.:38:30.

we'd like to work with you to do it. George Osborne has ruled it out at

:38:30.:38:33.

the Liberal Democrats still have it in play, but it's what we are

:38:33.:38:37.

working on. We think if you went for properties above �2 million,

:38:37.:38:44.

which is sensible and, by the way, half of them, about 70,000, they

:38:44.:38:48.

are second homes, not main residences, we think you could

:38:48.:38:53.

raise, the look or Democrats said 1.7 billion, which the IFS said was

:38:53.:38:57.

reasonable, I think it would be closer to 2 billion now. If we were

:38:57.:39:04.

to use 2 billion now for a mansion tax, that would allow us to do

:39:04.:39:08.

close to �1,000.10 pence tax band for basic rate taxpayers, that

:39:08.:39:12.

wouldn't apply to higher rate taxpayers. 25 million taxpayers

:39:12.:39:19.

would get the benefit of the 10p tax cut from Labour. And that would

:39:19.:39:24.

amount to an extra �2 a week. Is that what Labour means, being on

:39:24.:39:30.

the side of the working poor? said, don't do the top rate of tax,

:39:30.:39:37.

don't hit working families with a tax credits cap. It's �2 a week.

:39:37.:39:42.

Andrew, �2 a week may for you not be a huge amount. For struggling

:39:42.:39:46.

families at the moment, seeing their Petroc, their bills up, with

:39:46.:39:53.

all people in work going to food banks, are really struggling, any

:39:53.:40:02.

help is worth having. But that's it, �2 a week. To be honest, I think

:40:02.:40:12.
:40:12.:40:12.

you'd be unwise to skier. -- smear. You can either answer yes or no.

:40:12.:40:16.

gave you a very clear answer. �2 billion from the mansion tax would

:40:16.:40:26.

allow you to do �1,000... Up to almost �1,000, 10p band, 10 % on

:40:26.:40:31.

�1,000 would give you about �100 a year, �2 a week. It is a clear

:40:31.:40:35.

signal from Labour that our tax- cutting priorities, and of course

:40:35.:40:39.

we'd like to do more if we could, would be focused on middle and

:40:39.:40:42.

lower income families. We would not be cutting the top rate of income

:40:42.:40:47.

tax, that is David Cameron's idea. We want to start from hard-working

:40:47.:40:52.

families. When you were a Treasury minister, Labour abolished the 10p

:40:52.:40:58.

rate. Why have you changed your mind? We were all part of a

:40:58.:41:03.

government which did this, and therefore we all defended it... I

:41:03.:41:07.

was in the Treasury and I have defended it. As I've said to you

:41:07.:41:11.

during this programme since, both Ed Miliband and I said to Gordon

:41:11.:41:15.

Brown at the time it was the wrong thing to do, a mistake. But he was

:41:15.:41:19.

the Chancellor and he made that decision. He thought by cutting 10p,

:41:19.:41:22.

he would be able to cut the basic rate and people would understand

:41:22.:41:27.

that. As he discovered and, to be honest, George Osborne has

:41:27.:41:31.

discovered in the last year, trying to play off one group of working

:41:31.:41:35.

families against another, the strivers and the shirkers, that

:41:35.:41:39.

backfires. It backfired badly for Labour because people didn't see

:41:39.:41:43.

the basic rate cut... You'd told Gordon Brown, don't do it -

:41:43.:41:51.

correct? Yes. His closest adviser in these matters and he ignored you.

:41:51.:41:59.

Yes. Why didn't you resign in protest at this attack on the

:41:59.:42:05.

working poor? At that time there was a debate about the 10p tax cut,

:42:05.:42:10.

the basic rate tax cut, tax credits went up to compensate. There was an

:42:10.:42:13.

attempt to put together a package to prevent the losers. It didn't

:42:14.:42:19.

work. We said to Gordon Brown that it wasn't going to work. Not only

:42:19.:42:23.

did we get that wrong, but we're going to reinstate it. The thing in

:42:23.:42:27.

politics is, can you admit when you make big mistakes? We are saying

:42:27.:42:35.

let's change it now. Labour are saying change it for the future.

:42:35.:42:40.

Another question, it's also not to spend the same money twice. In

:42:40.:42:46.

March of last year you told Nick Robinson that the proceeds of any

:42:46.:42:49.

mention tax would be used to reverse the cuts to tax credits.

:42:49.:42:54.

Now you are saying it will be used to introduce a 10p rate. What's it

:42:54.:43:00.

to be and are you spending the money twice? No. I have to say,

:43:00.:43:03.

today the Conservative Party are obviously pretty desperate with

:43:03.:43:07.

their attempt to come up with these flaws. I did an interview with Nick

:43:07.:43:11.

Robinson. I said, we would like to have a mountain tracks. We would

:43:11.:43:15.

work with the Liberal Democrats or the Tories on it. If they wanted to

:43:15.:43:19.

use that for cutting the top rate of tax, no way. But we said if they

:43:19.:43:23.

were to make a proposal, for example to help working families by

:43:23.:43:27.

cutting taxes, like tax credits or any others, we would support them.

:43:27.:43:32.

We made no proposal at that time for any tax cuts, including tax

:43:32.:43:39.

credits. And today we are saying use it for the 10p rate. They are

:43:39.:43:44.

not tax credits. Let me ask you this, will you need to do, will the

:43:44.:43:49.

Manton tax be part of a general council tax re-evaluation? --

:43:49.:43:56.

mansion tax. It depends how you do it. There's a range of options. We

:43:56.:44:01.

are working on the different options. We would need to find a

:44:01.:44:04.

way to get that valuation and applied the tax in a way which is

:44:04.:44:09.

sensible and fair and cost- effective. It's something we are

:44:09.:44:12.

working on. I've offered to go and have cross-party talks with the

:44:12.:44:16.

Liberal Democrats and the Tories, to try and find a way in which we

:44:16.:44:21.

can do this. It can definitely be done. George Osborne set his face

:44:21.:44:25.

against that. The Liberal Democrats are more open. If they want to join

:44:25.:44:29.

our discussions, that would be great. In politics, you should that

:44:29.:44:32.

make your big mistakes. George Osborne is making big mistakes on

:44:32.:44:36.

the economy at the moment, flatlined ing at the top rate of

:44:36.:44:42.

tax. If I was interviewing Mr Osborne I would ask him about his

:44:42.:44:49.

mistakes, but I've Got You and then running out of time. It seems to me

:44:49.:44:52.

you'd decided how to spend the proceeds of the mansion tax but you

:44:52.:44:56.

haven't got any idea get how you are going to raise it. Do you

:44:56.:45:01.

accept that if there is a council tax re-evaluation, everybody's

:45:01.:45:06.

council tax could go up? There's a range of different ways in which

:45:06.:45:08.

you could do this. We've been working and looking at the

:45:09.:45:13.

different options. It can definitely be done. There is work-

:45:13.:45:19.

in-progress, but we could raise 1.7 to �2 billion on the Manton tax to

:45:19.:45:26.

cut the 10p. -- mansion tax. We are still working on that. We'd like to

:45:26.:45:29.

work with the government if they wanted to. If George Osborne would

:45:29.:45:38.

finally, the programme... It's your idea, you tell us. Why would to

:45:38.:45:48.
:45:48.:45:57.

come on your programme? -- why Joining us is the Liberal Democrat

:45:57.:46:02.

peer Susan Kramer. The next government will be decided by the

:46:02.:46:07.

voters. On mansion tax, we are always pleased when somebody

:46:07.:46:13.

finally comes on side. As you know, it was in Power 2010 manifesto. We

:46:13.:46:16.

would like the current government to take this on board and implement

:46:16.:46:22.

it. One of my arguments with Ed Balls is, he will apparently used

:46:22.:46:27.

this to cut at the lowest rate of income tax. But what we have been

:46:27.:46:35.

doing in government is raise the starting point of tax. So people

:46:35.:46:42.

who are on standard rates are now some �600-�700 better off. As

:46:42.:46:45.

Liberal Democrats, we would want to keep raising VAT threshold until

:46:45.:46:52.

you get to the minimum-wage. That is much more significant than the

:46:52.:46:56.

programme Ed Balls discussed. we know there are talks going on

:46:56.:46:58.

between senior Liberal Democrats and Labour about the future. There

:46:58.:47:04.

would have to be, as we don't know what will happen post 2015. Would

:47:04.:47:08.

you like to go into coalition with a party now that is stating clearly,

:47:08.:47:13.

we will introduce a mansion tax, the exact policy the Liberal

:47:13.:47:18.

Democrats have been talking about? We will fight for our policies. We

:47:18.:47:23.

have a lot of areas where we agreed a coalition agreement. There are

:47:24.:47:27.

crucial things like raising the starting point of tax, something

:47:27.:47:31.

Labour never looked at. It has been a revolutionary approach with a

:47:31.:47:36.

real impact not just on the people taken out of tax, 3 million, but

:47:36.:47:43.

everybody else on the standard rate. What the Government looks like is a

:47:43.:47:49.

decision for voters. Help us where Ed Balls could not help us - how

:47:49.:47:54.

would it work? Would you have to do a full evaluation? We looked at

:47:54.:47:57.

doing it as a separate tax, precisely because of the issues you

:47:57.:48:01.

raced. It is complex to try and approach it through the council tax

:48:01.:48:07.

mechanism. But we are willing to look at workable solutions. So you

:48:07.:48:12.

still can't tell us how you would do it? Andrew, you know perfectly

:48:12.:48:18.

well that there is a viable way to do this. That is to do it as a

:48:18.:48:26.

separate tax. How would that work? To be honest with you, it is a long

:48:26.:48:30.

time since I have read the detail. But I can refer you to all our

:48:30.:48:36.

website. But this is central to party policy, and you come on this

:48:36.:48:41.

programme and can't explain it? That is an insult to the viewers.

:48:41.:48:45.

At least Ed Balls has the excuse that he has only just thought of

:48:45.:48:49.

the idea. You thought of it years ago and you still can't tell us?

:48:49.:48:55.

call me guilty for not knowing the granular detail. But I will tell

:48:55.:49:00.

you the fundamental principles. We had a mansion tax in 2010. We have

:49:00.:49:04.

stood by that and are pressing for it and the current government.

:49:04.:49:08.

people will be worried about a full re-evaluation. Which is why we have

:49:08.:49:12.

chosen not to go in that direction. My God Heseltine, the Conservatives

:49:12.:49:17.

have a problem now -- Michael Heseltine, the Conservatives have a

:49:17.:49:23.

problem in terms of standards of living. In 2015, people will be

:49:23.:49:28.

asked whether they feel better off than in 2010, and even the Governor

:49:28.:49:32.

of the Bank of England said we will not. How do the Tories combat that?

:49:32.:49:38.

I can't remember an election going back to the '50s in which living

:49:38.:49:41.

standards were not the determining factor. So are trying to say we

:49:41.:49:45.

will fight an election on living standards is simply to say they are

:49:45.:49:51.

going to fight an election. being able to say, backed up by the

:49:51.:49:56.

fact that wages have not come up with inflation, it will be

:49:56.:50:00.

difficult. I have also read the Governor's speech, and we all know

:50:00.:50:04.

there is a great deal of uncertainty. We have an economic

:50:04.:50:14.
:50:14.:50:15.

crisis. But this programme is interesting. As a pre- one to the

:50:15.:50:18.

full 2015 election, you have an architect of the crisis, the guy

:50:18.:50:23.

who sat with Gordon Brown, creating the mess. Under croppers -- under

:50:23.:50:27.

cross-examination from Andrew, simple questions, there were no

:50:27.:50:32.

answers, except one. We will have a mansion tax. That is easy, because

:50:32.:50:36.

it is rich people and no one cares. They mention a mansion tax because

:50:36.:50:40.

they are fighting a by-election when they want to roads from the

:50:40.:50:44.

Lib Dems. Overnight, they have picked one of the Lib Dem policies.

:50:44.:50:47.

But you have still not answered this question about what the Tory

:50:47.:50:55.

line will be. I will tell you. We have saved the national economy.

:50:55.:50:59.

Even if people are worse off? you really want to put the

:50:59.:51:03.

architects of the disaster are back in the driving seat? Do you really

:51:03.:51:07.

think that Ed Balls, who could not answer the questions, he would not

:51:07.:51:11.

even tell you whether it was a certain policy, do you really think

:51:11.:51:15.

that that guy has got a grip on how we deal with the worst modern

:51:15.:51:22.

economic crisis we have ever been through? This programme was a real

:51:22.:51:28.

one, or a pre- rom-com of 2015. That is why David Cameron will win.

:51:28.:51:34.

What would the Liberal Democrat answer be to that? Ed Miliband

:51:34.:51:38.

would say living standards it still feel lower to voters than they were

:51:38.:51:43.

in 2010, and it is a result of the coalition government. Voters are

:51:43.:51:48.

not so easily fooled. They have had five years of austerity, with the

:51:48.:51:52.

promise of more austerity. And the Lib Dems themselves have said we

:51:52.:51:56.

will have a few more years of austerity. The because it is

:51:56.:51:59.

important to not create false rainbows. He the Labour Party say

:51:59.:52:03.

there will be austerity as well. But they will argue that under

:52:03.:52:08.

their policies, are rightly or wrongly, they would not be in this

:52:08.:52:14.

position. By have they got us into this position. You have to accept

:52:14.:52:20.

that the crisis we have was not just some meteor from the collapse

:52:20.:52:23.

of the financial system, it was an underlying crash of our entire

:52:23.:52:27.

economy, very much fuelled by the spend and borrow a pattern to which

:52:27.:52:31.

Ed Balls is still addicted. interestingly, the Poles are now,

:52:31.:52:36.

for the first time, beginning to show that Ed Balls and Ed Miliband,

:52:36.:52:40.

are beginning to level with George Osborne and David Cameron in terms

:52:40.:52:47.

of trust over the economy. It this was normal politics, the coalition

:52:47.:52:51.

government would be 20 to 25 points behind in the mid-term blues of any

:52:51.:52:57.

government. Actually, they are 10 or 11 points behind. Unemployment

:52:57.:53:03.

is falling. The economy is probably on the turn, and there are another

:53:03.:53:09.

two years before the election. All right, before I have a turn!

:53:10.:53:14.

You have had a few. Now, what day is today? No, not

:53:14.:53:18.

that one. We don't go in for that mushy love stuff at the Daily

:53:18.:53:23.

Politics. Today is actually the 50th anniversary of two-time Prime

:53:23.:53:26.

Minister Harold Wilson becoming leader of the Labour Party. The

:53:26.:53:32.

following year, in 1964, he won, by a small majority, the first of four

:53:32.:53:36.

elections. He was arguably the first prime minister of the

:53:36.:53:40.

television era, so much so that the Tories panicked in 1964 and said,

:53:40.:53:44.

we need a leader who knows how to do TV as well. Tonight, BBC

:53:44.:53:47.

Parliament are dedicating an evening of programmes to the man

:53:47.:53:53.

who once described himself as an optimist, but an optimist who

:53:53.:54:03.
:54:03.:54:16.

carries a raincoat. Here is a REPORTER: Mr Wilson, many wonder

:54:16.:54:20.

whether you would make a good Prime Minister. What issues do you think

:54:20.:54:25.

are uppermost in their minds? think the first thing is that they

:54:25.:54:29.

want to see this country standing in the world restored. They are

:54:29.:54:35.

getting tired of seeing Britain pushed around. The Liverpool crowd

:54:35.:54:38.

has a sharp eye and a distinctive voice for victory. But early on

:54:38.:54:47.

Friday morning, they were convinced their man had won. What kind of

:54:47.:54:53.

Prime Minister do you most admire? A number of those I admire were

:54:53.:54:57.

wartime prime ministers, such as Churchill. And in certain aspects,

:54:57.:55:03.

Lloyd George. Among the peacetime ones, I was always impressed by

:55:03.:55:13.
:55:13.:55:19.

Robert Peel, especially his great Those were the days when first-

:55:19.:55:22.

class seats on British Rail were very comfortable. Joining me,

:55:22.:55:27.

Bernard Donoughue, who was head of Wilson's Downing Street policy unit

:55:27.:55:32.

during the 1970s. In 1963, when Labour chose Harold Wilson as their

:55:32.:55:39.

leader, it was a watershed. The previous Labour leaders like Hugh

:55:39.:55:43.

Gaitskell had been public-school Oxbridge types. They were not that

:55:43.:55:46.

different from the Macmillans of the Tory side. But here was this

:55:46.:55:51.

chap with a pipe and a Yorkshire accent, grammar-school boy. It was

:55:52.:55:58.

a new era. Absolut Klee. Harold was classless. Well, he was really

:55:58.:56:05.

middle-class, but he was not clearly of the ruling class. He was

:56:05.:56:10.

provincial, from the north. Completely meritocratic. This was

:56:10.:56:16.

one of his strengths. To the public, they felt they could identify with

:56:16.:56:24.

him. He was not from the old ruling regime. And of course, after him,

:56:24.:56:32.

the Conservatives followed this and did the same. Very much the same

:56:32.:56:38.

point could be made about Ted Heath. And John Major. And Margaret,

:56:38.:56:44.

actually. And he was prime minister during the most significant part of

:56:44.:56:48.

the '60s, if you accept that the '60s did not really start until

:56:48.:56:56.

1963. Then he came back in the early '70s with the Ted Heath

:56:56.:57:02.

interregnum. But looking back, is he regarded as a great prime

:57:02.:57:07.

minister or a disappointment? regarded as a great political

:57:07.:57:12.

leader and party manager. And he is regarded much more highly in the

:57:12.:57:17.

Labour Party than in the country at large. I think he raised

:57:17.:57:22.

expectations too high before he came into power of being able to

:57:22.:57:26.

modernise Britain in his own image. Of course, he was not able to do

:57:26.:57:30.

that. It was an impossible task, and he suffered from raising

:57:30.:57:35.

expectations too high, to the point where many people came to say after

:57:35.:57:39.

he went that he achieved nothing has Prime Minister. That is totally

:57:39.:57:44.

untrue. In terms of transforming the social values of the country

:57:44.:57:52.

and changing the laws, legalising homosexuality, abolishing theatre

:57:52.:57:57.

censorship, abolishing hanging, dealing with gender inequality and

:57:57.:58:02.

racial inequality, he achieved a lot. But not as much as he led

:58:02.:58:08.

people to believe he would. Do you miss him? I miss his style and the

:58:08.:58:14.

fun of being with him. There are other negative sides to him. Is it

:58:14.:58:18.

true that he had brandy and cigars in public and the pipe and the beer

:58:18.:58:23.

were for public? Not always. But he certainly smoked his pipe a lot in

:58:23.:58:29.

public. I never saw him smoke it in private. It was very useful,

:58:29.:58:32.

because if you asked him a difficult question, he would light

:58:32.:58:36.

his pipe and blow a lot of smoke. You can enjoy a whole evening of

:58:36.:58:39.

programmes looking back at your life and times of Harold Wilson

:58:39.:58:42.

tonight on BBC Parliament from 6 o'clock. That is it for today.

:58:42.:58:46.

Thanks to all our guests, especially Lord Heseltine. The One

:58:46.:58:51.

Jo Coburn and Andrew Neil are joined by Conservative peer Lord Heseltine to discuss Ed Miliband's speech on the economy as well as all the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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