23/04/2013 Daily Politics


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Politics. It has not quite been the Battle of Bannockburn, the the SNP


and Treasury spent this morning at war over the pound. George Osborne


warned the Scottish Nationalists they would have to give up control


of key elements of the economy to keep using the pound, should they


gain independence. The SNP accused him of scaremongering.


It is St George's Day, we will be looking at the English Democrats'


local election campaign. She did not want to read it or know


what people said about her. The authorised biography of Margaret


Thatcher is published today. We will be speaking to its author, Charles


Moore. Who says there is no important


Parliamentary business going on? One MP wants a debate on the timing of


the FA Cup Final! All that in the next hour. With this


for the duration is Foreign Office Minister Baroness Warsi. Welcome to


the programme. Let's talk about terror. Following


the bombing in Boston last week, the Canadian authorities say they have


foiled an Al-Qaeda supported terrorist attacks. In Madrid, the


Spanish authorities say they have arrested two suspected members of


Al-Qaeda who they claim have a similar profile to these suspects in


the recent attacks in Boston. Our extra precautions being taken here?


We are on a constant state of alert. We have a substantial threat. It is


something we are constantly aware of. When situations around the


world, such as Boston and Canada, happened, we become more aware of


the threat and the necessary precautions are taken. On the basis


of what you have said, that we are on constant alert, should be


security services funding be cut further? I will not debate what may


be the outcome of budgetary negotiations in the years to come...


Would it be safe in the current state we are in? The security of our


citizens will never be put at risk, whatever the economic climate. The


security services direct tremendous job. We hear about the occasions,


sadly, when things go wrong, but they are keeping us safe. I know


from David Cameron all the way through the government, they will


always make sure they are properly supported. That sounds like there


will not be cuts. I will not in gauge in a discussion that might


take part between colleagues and the Chancellor, but we will never put


the security of citizens here or abroad at risk because of austerity.


Do you think it is irresponsible of MI5 and MI6 to warn, as has been


reported in the papers, that Great Britain would be vulnerable to a


terrorist attack if security funding is cut? This is an ongoing thing


which has happened for a number of weeks. Quite sadly, I think, it has


been played out in the media. Different departments have to have


these discussions with the Treasury at the relevant time is when these


decisions are taken about budgets. I am sorry if that sounds like I am


repeating myself, the reality is that both abroad and at home, the


security services play an incredibly crucial and vital role which is


hugely supported. Many public statements have been made by the


Prime Minister, the Home Secretary, the Foreign Secretary, as to the


value we place on their work. They will always be properly supported.


You have Jewish diction, if you like, for affairs in Afghanistan --


you have jurisdiction. Is around ready to take over responsibility?


think so. I was in Helmand a few months ago and saw for myself how


local policing was done by the local forces. More and more of the country


is protected by Afghan National Security forces. We are still there


in a training and support capacity. There lots of training -- there are


lots of issues around the world. But up and down the country, you can see


they are taking over the security of their country.


Now it is time for our daily quiz. What entertainment is provided for


members of the House of Lords when they have to stay for late-night


votes? Is it burlesque dance classes, film screenings, open my


comedy nights or stitch and bitch clubs? At the end of the show,


hopefully side will give us the right answer.


In 1707, Scotland and England merged their currencies. Will 2014 be the


year it comes to an end? The UK Chancellor of the Exchequer warned


this morning that it was unlikely that Scotland's 5 million citizens


could keep the pound if they voted for independence. Speaking to


Glasgow business leaders this morning, George Osborne said that


Glasgow would face an uncertain financial future, with England,


Wales and Northern Ireland are likely to want a currency zone with


their newly divorced neighbours. He said it could -- one MP said a


currency zone could work in the interests of all involved, but this


is what George Osborne said. would 58 million citizens give away


some of their sovereignty over monetary and potentially other


economic policies to 5 million people in another state? Before the


rest of the UK could ever agree to enter a formal currency union, any


further you -- any further UK Chancellor of the Exchequer would


have to provide a British people with a clear and compelling and said


to the question of sovereignty. The SNP asserts that it would be in


everyone's interest for an independent Scotland to keep the


pound is part of a eurozone style sterling's own. But a report we are


publishing today shows that is not the case. Let's stop speculating and


look at the evidence. Would the rest of the UK family agreed to take that


risk? Could a situation where an independent Scotland and the rest of


the UK share the pound and the Bank of England be made to work?


Frankly, it is unlikely. There is real -- real doubt about the and to


these questions. In other words, the only way to be sure to keep the


pound as the Scottish currency is to stay in the United Kingdom.


We are now joined by the SNP Treasury spokesman at Westminster,


Stewart Hosie, and the former Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling, who is


in Edinburgh and is leading the BETTER together -- Better Together


campaign. Was Scotland forced out of sterling,


the additional business costs for businesses in Northern Ireland,


Wales and England would be substantial. There is no need.


Scotland brings a great deal to the currency table, there is a �40


billion contribution in balancing trade terms with gas and oil. It


would not make sense for George Osborne or Alistair Darling to run


around England explaining why they wanted to shred the currency to make


a political point? If you like the pound so much, why are you going for


independence? The union is about more than currency, it is tax and


spending decisions which every UK Chancellor takes on the behalf of


Scotland. We think the big tax and spending decisions should be taken


in Scotland on behalf of Scottish people to meet the needs of the


Scottish people, while sharing a currency which make sense for


everybody. Alistair Darling, can a currency union be made to work?


things have to happen, you have to get the agreement of the other


country to join it, that is not guaranteed, as we see. Secondly, you


have to submit to something of a straitjacket, as we see in the


Eurozone, where both parties agree on budget, tax, spending and so on.


Thinking about it, the pound is the bedrock of our economy, it is a


thing about jobs and pensions depend upon. What is becoming clear today


is that despite the fact that the nationals have asserted there will


be a currency union, they have not spoken to anyone else, they cannot


guarantee it and they cannot guarantee the pound. That is the


case if there is no currency union or you can't agreed the terms and


conditions, you are driven back to one of two options, you either use


the currency in the same way that Panama uses the US dollar, which


would be ruinous for the Scottish financial services industry because


you would have no central bank, or you are driven to issuing your own


separate new Scottish currency in the most turbulent times we have


ever seen, something I noticed that the Scottish finance minister, John


Swinney, conspicuously failed to rule out twice this morning when


asked about it. Nationalist policy is being made up on the hoof, rather


like the European Union money said it was automatic, it is not true,


they said we could rejoin NATO automatically, that is not true,


they can't guarantee currency union. As we have heard from George


Osborne, the rest of the UK does not sound like it wants it. I am sure


that George Osborne and Alistair Darling will say these things to


make it sound dreadfully difficult until we get to the referendum. At


that point, if there is a yes vote calm minds will come together.


Alistair Darling has described this as logical and desirable. He also


said that currency is the bedrock, it is the bedrock of trade, which is


why we want to keep it. We do not understand why Alistair would not


want to be in that. You wanted to join the euro at some stage, now you


don't, understandably, because it is in crisis, why do you want a new


monetary union between Scotland and England and, if you like, replicate


what has happened with the Eurozone and expect the UK to take on the


risk without close political union? I have explained why it is in


everyone's best interest. The idea that you have to have political


union to have a currency union is not true. With Belgium and


Luxembourg, it did not lead to political union, nor did it lead to


tax harmonisation. Are you prepared to accept the constraints that would


be put on new if you were part of the currency? Are you prepared to


have your budget look that at Westminster before Holyrood?


recognise that for a currency pact. But the stability pact would apply


to both parts of the union, not just Scotland. There would have to be


constraints to make sure that nothing got out of hand. Alistair


Darling, it is clear the government tactic is to make this as difficult


as possible because they don't want it, that is understandable. Can they


stop it? Can the government say no? Two of course you can, for a


currency union to work, both sides have to be willing partners. Stewart


Hosie hit on the problem, both sides would have to agree that they moved


to a situation where their budgets were approved by a foreign country,


which is what they would be at the time. It is no wonder that the rest


of the UK might say, we never voted for this, nobody asked us about it.


Stewart Hosie says this is something that has been raised in the course


of the campaign, he is asking us to take a massive gamble in believing


that, firstly, there will be a currency union and, secondly, the


terms and conditions would be acceptable to Scotland or the rest


of the UK. You can't guarantee that. I believe that the pound is


important for trade, I believe that the UK as a whole has done well and


will continue to do well. That is so long as we stay part of the mighty


kingdom, we are better and stronger together. If you choose to leave the


UK there are consequences, the Nationalists are trying to hide that


from people in Scotland and the rest of the UK because they cannot


guarantee. Alistair Darling, if the SNP, as Stewart Hosie has said, get


a clear mandate for independence, is it democratically viable for


Westminster to say we are not even going to discuss the idea of a


currency union? If Scotland votes for independence and it has a


democratic right to do so if that is what the majority choose, we are


voting to leave the rest of the UK. After that, we decide what we are


going to do. We can ask for a currency union but maybe the other


side to not want to play, or the terms and conditions might be such


that you have such budgetary restrictions that you do not have


independence at all. A currency union takes you to an economic and


then a political union. Or if the currency unit does not work -- the


currency union does not work or you do not like it, you are either left


with using sterling, and heaven help the financial services industry in


Scotland if they had no central bank, or you set out on an uncharted


course with your own currency. This is Scotland's decision, I am


Scottish, sitting in the capital of Scotland, I do not want to see my


country gambled with. I want to ensure the best possible option for


my country, which is why I think we are better and stronger together.


What is your Plan B in the event of no currency union, added sounds


increasingly like that will not happen? I disagree.What is your


Plan B? There will be a lot of hysterical stuff said by the no


campaign in the run up to September. You keep a currency union which


works, you keep it to reduce columns -- transaction cost is, you do not


shred the currency by taking �40 billion just to make a political


point in the run-up to the referendum. Alastair is wrong. Of


course they will be strident and assertive, of course they will say


it is dreadfully difficult. What about economic question the


financial markets are not just going to take on trust the


creditworthiness of an independent Scotland? They will not just say,


you are right, we trust you, it will be fine. When you go into a currency


union, Alistair Darling is talking about that risk to the British


economy as it stands. I think it would be far better to have a


sensible discussion about the markets, about guilt assurance in


Scotland. It is right that the credit aid gin seas may say that


Scotland has no history of those issues, but given the Scottish


economy is in a better position than the UK, with a lower deficit, lower


net debt, better in employment and higher growth, the underlying


economic's means that there is no certainty at all that Scotland would


have higher borrowing costs, which is the scare story the no campaign


I'm in favour of what we have at the moment where we have the United


Kingdom, where we have the two economies working well together.


The question before us and before people in Scotland is whether or


not you want to break that up. What the Nationalists are asking us to


do is to vote to separate, leave the UK, but by the way, we want to


get back into an arrangement with the currency. It's similar -- it


won't wash. You're right to ask Stewart Hosie and the Nationalists


what is plan B, because if you can't get the currency union or the


terms are unacceptable because they're putting controls over your


budgets and so on, as we see in the eurozone, what is your plan B? Are


we going have a new currency? That is going into uncharted water. Most


people in Scotland would want nothing to do with. It the pound


matters to us, for our jobs and our savings, pension tooz. Which is why


we want to keep it. Why do you want to leave the UK in the first place?


The union is about more than just currency. It's about George Osborne


with an austerity budget, with a trillion pound deficit, with the


deficit approaching 100% of GDP and with decisions like the bedroom tax


being taken not in the interests of Scottish people. It's about all the


other tax and spend decisions not just the currency. As both of us


know, we are not voting for the next Government for the next five


years. You are voting for something that could last for 300 years.


You're asking us to take a gamble. You know, the SNP is the party that


told us they had a legal opinion that said we'd automatically get


into the European Union. It turned out to be complete nonsense. Now


they're trying to bluster their way through an argument that is central


to the credibility and it's been blown apart. Thank you very much.


You have the final word on this. What do you say to Stewart Hosie?


What I say is that it was important to raise the issue of the debate on


independence, but now is when the real debate starts, the reasonable,


practical, pragmatic approach to what that means in reality. What


Alistair Darling has said is correct. Can you raise the


overarching issue of we want independence, but it will boil down


to the real practical measures and how it will impact upon Scotland.


Unfortunately, the answers are not clear from the SNP as to what that


will mean for the Scottish people. Thank you very much.


The local elections are over a week away and what with it being St


George's Day and all that we thought, who better to nail their


patriotic colours to the mast than the English Democrats. The party


was unveiled in 2002, after Robin Tilbrook's English National Party


merged with other paertsz. Their policy for a creation of a devolves


English Parliament. It's not clear how many members the party has.


Robin Tilbrook claims it's around 3,000. In the May elections they


are fielding 39 candidates with 23 of them standing in Kent. They're


putting up three district councillors. Their biggest achieve


to date is when Peter Davies won Doncaster in 2009. He resigned from


the party in February concerned with the number of people joining


from the British National Party. The leader of the English Democrats,


Robin Tilbrook is with us. Welcome to the programme. Davies zaif


Davies the mayor of Doncaster resigned from the party concerned


about the number of former BNP members joining the party. Was he


right? No, the number of the people joining from the BNP is fairly


small. It happened a year or so ago. It was old news any way. Peter, on


the other hand, is somebody who is now an ex-sul porter of six parties


and he is one of those people that is quite difficult to work with. He


glorifies in the title of being the maverick mayor. You're pleased he's


gone? We think we have a better candidate standing. We are getting


a very good response from people in Doncaster. I'm hopeful we will win


again. Do you stand by your comments thaw made at the 10th


annual conference in Leicester in September 2011, the BNP supporters


are joining us. They will help us become a credible party. We need


not be too defensive. I think that's right. You just said there


weren't that many BNP joining the party, are there? What numbers are


we talking about? Out of about 3,000 members that we've got,


probably about 200 or 300 who are ex-BNP. That doesn't worry you at


all? No, as long as they are genuine converts to what we are


talking about, I'm not bothered about it. Does it worry you? If 10%


of my membership was an ex-extreme right-wing party it would worry me.


The concerns that Peter Davies has raised have been raised by a number


of organisations. There are a lot of NGOs and third-sector


organisation who's work in the area of monitoring extreme right-wing


movements. This has been happening for a number of years, as the BNP


has lost support, much of the hard core supporters have drifted into


other parties. Converted to the policies of the English Democrats?


Look, you know, however much people convert, if 10 mers of the -- 10%


of the party membership are ex- members of an extreme party that


should worry you. You were somebody who was talking about joining


Labour, weren't you? That's a complete nonsense. The fact is that


people are able to change their mind and they should be allowed to,


within reason. What we're looking at is a situation where people are


becoming more and more concerned about English national identity.


The census from 2011 show that something like 70% of people in


England consider themself English. 60% of those said they were English


only. English national identity is the issue that's rising up the


political spectrum. It is important that there should be a moderate,


sensible English Nationalist Party to represent that view. We are that


party. Many people are incredibly proud of being English. The patron


saint, St George's Day, who we're celebrating today, St George was of


Palestinian origin. He wasn't a white man from the shires. He was


Greek. He was half Greek and half Palestinian. Therefore, I think you


know the kind of people you are attracting from the British


National Party are exactly the kind of people who would see anybody who


was not white as not acceptable. Salute nonsense. We have stood non-


white candidates. We're happy to do so. We are happy to have people


join us who are genuine converts to our party. Any sensible party would


do so. The Conservative Party, undoubtedly has people in it who


are ex-BNP as well. Labour has at least two Councillor who's are ex-


BNP activists, in one case a person who was a BNP Councillor. It's a


ridiculous point to say you shouldn't allow people to change


their minds. This is politics, this is grown-up politics. People change


their minds. It's perfectly fair and reasonable to do so. Is it a


failure of mainstream parties as well that actually, the English


Democrats are taking an issue that is important in many people's minds


and hasn't been dealt with in terms of patriotism, in terms of English


identity. The Conservative Party has failed to address it.


wouldn't agree with that at all. If you look at everything that we've


been doing and what the Department for Communities and Local


Government have been doing, we're flying the flag today. I draped


myself in a Union flag when we celebrated the Royal Wedding and it


went to the Olympics. You don't need to be nasty and extreme right-


wing to be patriotic. I'm deeply patriotic. I'm proud of being


English. I'm proud of being a Yorkshire woman. I don't feel the


need to sign up to some of the views of the British National Party


to do that. To drape your self-in the Union Jack shows the confusion.


The Union Jack is not an emblem of England. I never said it was.It's


an emblem of being English. I was proud of being English. St George's


Day, according to the BBC website, St George was from Turkey. We won't


get into a discussion. It's now Turkey. 500 years later he was


martyred in 303. How are you celebrating? Well, standard, good


old fashioned roast beef and I'm geeing to be thoroughly enjoying


the day. I have my rose... Should it be a bank holiday? Yes, we're


only the party campaigning for it to be a bank holiday. Obviously


what we want is a proper celebration of England's national


day. Are you celebrating? Of course I am. I celebrate being English


every single day. I don't need to put a badge on to say I'm English.


Thank you very much. Now, our guest of the day is also minister for


faith and communities and looks to highlights problems relating to


attacks and discrimination against ethnic communities. Does


Islamophobia pass the dinner-table test? Baroness Warsi went out to


see for herself. I'm here at theality ring ham


Islamic Cultural Centre. This building was an unused chapel. It


was bought by the Muslim community and now provides essential services


for local communities. This is a progressive, open, confident,


successful community. It has great relations with the local churches,


with synagogues and other faithes. But despite that, it still doesn't


stop them being subjected to anti- Muslim hatred and anti-Muslim


attacks. Welcome. I see you brought the sunshine with you. I did, I


brought it over the Pennines. I was shown around the centre and


explained what had happened here. How many attacks have you had on


the centre? We had about ten to 12 attacks. Those windows were smashed,


windows on both sides of the hall smashed. In the past graffiti was


put on both halls and been set on fire. Having said all that, we have


very good relationship with our neighbours. They keep an eye on the


centre. Just for the sake of one or two bad apples, we don't want to


tarnish the whole community over these attacks. Sadly, however,


these sorts of attacks are not just limited to religious buildings.


They are taking place across the country and are blighting victims'


daily lives. Women have had veils torn from their heads. Children


have been physically assaulted at school. And families have been


continually targeted, some even driven from their homes. Matthew


Goodwin is an academic from the University of Nottingham. He's


conducted research into the area of extremism. His work has shown that


this problem is under reported. Compared to other forms of


prejudice, Andy Semitism, racism, those kind of --ant Semitism,


racism, those kind of prejudices, it's 2013 and we only just have a


system in place to monitor attacks against Muslim communities.


Alongside that, there's a bigger challenge going on here. That's a


large reservoir of public hostility towards British Muslim communities,


49%, almost one out of every two citizens rejected the idea that


Muslims were compatible with the British way of life. Two years ago,


I said that Islamophobia had passed the dinner-table test. What I meant


by that was that unfortunately, anti-Muslim sentiment was found in


the most civilised of settings. Two years on, evidence supports that


statement. But the good news is that Government is finally dealing


with the issue and it's now a priority.


The experience here in this quiet, leafy suburb shows anti-Muslim


attacks can happen any time, any place. As I've said before, an


attack on one community is an attack on all of us. We must rise


against this intolerance and bigotry and together, we must stamp


We're joined now by Professor Ted Cantle who works with iCoCo who


works with community cohesion and author of the Cantle Report.


Welcome to the programme. Would you agree there is a problem with


Muslim hate crimes? Very definitely. There's been a very big increase.


As was explained in your piece there. And Muslims are far more


likely than any other group to say they've experienced prejudice. So


there's no doubt about that. What about the way the Muslim community


community as if it was one community. The vast majority of


Muslims in Britain are not associated with terrorism or any of


this agenda. We have to be very clear, this is a small section.


Sayeeda Warsi, how is the government dealing with this? We set up the


cross government group on anti-Muslim hatred which brings


together civil servants from all government departments who would


have an interest and have to deal with this issue. We have also funded


-- funded a project which is monitoring anti-muscle attacks. This


effectively monitors online hatred, it is for people to report


anti-Muslim attacks. It is working with mosques, myself, and the


secretary of state Eric Pickles, we went to every mosque in the UK, we


talked about what opportunities they were, how they could report, how


victim support would step in. Professor Ted Cantle, does the


government have the right approach? Unfortunately, I think it doesn't.


It is important to identify hate crime against Muslims, to set up a


special initiative is very dangerous, it just perpetuates the


situation we have had. Yesterday I was on BBC Radio Sheffield talking


about hate crime against the Roma community. This morning I was on LBC


talking about racist attacks on the London Underground. The more we


single out the Muslim community for special treatment the more, I think,


ironically, we are making matters worse. We have to see hate crime


more generally, including those with special needs, subject to the most


vicious hate crime recently, and make sure we are tackling this as


one community, not as a series of specialist groups? So the government


approach is counter-productive? have a lot of time for Ted, I


remember him when we were dealing with the fallout from the Bradford


riots. But I think his understanding is fundamentally flawed. There are


very specific challenges that we as a country face. Wider Muslim


community specifically, why not hate -- hate crime against different


communities? We had a cross government working group on


anti-Semitism, it still exists and it has been hugely successful.


looking at Muslim hatred we did not feel the need to reinvent wheel, but


to look at something which worked. If you look at these statistics for


disaggregated religious hate crime, hate crime as a whole, but which


communities most being impacted, almost 60 % of religious hate crime


is directed towards the dish muslin community. I think it is worse than


that, this government is developing initiatives singling out separate


communities. We are giving money to church groups, Christian


communities, Muslim communities, and presiding over the explosion of


faith schools for Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jewish people, even


evangelical Christians. Is it any wonder that children are growing up


with prejudiced views when they are separated almost at birth? We have


to end the way in which we have Balkanised our education system. I


don't see that this government is trying to create an integrated


society. Faith schools have led to segregation, in the view of


Professor Ted Cantle? Is it right to faith school -- to have faith


schools which in some cases... Educationally, of course, people


believe they are successful, but do they reinforce separation between


communities? I don't think so, I think in some areas they provide the


only form of a decent, strong education. The push that Michael


Gove has had on academies and free schools, in many areas... Does it


reinforce separate the spit in communities? I have seen faith


schools in action. Talking about the British Muslim community, the amount


of faith state schools which are Muslim faith schools is probably in


single digits. Compared that to the number of... Why did your government


take the duty to promote community cohesion in schools out of the


Ofsted regime? The one thing that was going on in schools which was


helping schools from different backgrounds get together has been


removed from the Ofsted regime. Schools are no longer taking this


seriously, and all the cohesion resources at local level in


voluntary sector bodies have been cut back so that, really, there is


nothing going on with regards to integration, and we are about to


face a new wave, probably, of Romanian and Bulgarian migration,


which will not be as big as people say but we are not preparing for


integration in the way the government said it would. Answer the


question on a huge and being taken out of Ofsted? There was a juicy,


that did not necessarily mean it was happening in schools. -- there was a


GT. I would say that any school with a diverse range of pupils would be


considering dealing with issues of inter-faith relations, community


cohesion, as part of what the headteacher would set as it vision.


We are not a prescriptive government, just because you have a


tick box which says we have a duty of community cohesion and we have


take that, that does not mean it is happening. We have moved away from


the site load approach, single group funding. Let's have a meeting and


tell you about what we are really doing. You to have a meeting, then


come back to the programme. Thank you very much. Last night the House


of Lords voted to outlaw caste discrimination amongst Asians,


something which has been proclaimed as a big step.


The government said it had set up an education programme to tackle caste


discrimination, but Piers said that this was not enough and the law had


to be changed. Here is a flavour of the debate.


We believe that the time is already overdue for it to be stated that


discrimination on caste in the public sphere, like any other -- any


other discrimination, is not acceptable. It is contrary to the


culture and values of our society and should be seen to be illegal.


The government has come a long way in thinking about this. We part


company because we believe that we need to pass this amendment is now,


we need to get the legislation on the statute book and we need to then


resolve the issues that flow from that. That is why we are supporting


Lord Harry's game. -- supporting Lord Harris again. There needs to be


action to address this problem. The government is prepared to act, we


need to make sure we do this in the right way and that we consider all


the issues before we act and not afterwards. For that reason, I hope


very much that the noble and reverend Lord is able to withdraw


his amendment in the house and that he accepts the motion put forward.


We believe it is very important to make it quite clear that legislation


is necessary to protect people. I feel we have had such a serious


debate tonight and the issues have been so thoroughly debated that it


is right that the opinion of this house should be tested.


Joining us as Barry Gardiner MP, chair of Labour friends of India.


Why can't the government support legislation to outlaw caste


discrimination? This debate started whilst I was in opposition. I took


the equalities act through on behalf of the opposition. Labour were in a


very different position, they did not think there was evidence to


bring it in place, I said, let's keep a power... Did you vote for the


legislation? I said that we should retain this power so that in the


future when we had the evidence, we should bring it back into


legislation. Since then, there has been researched and as to the extent


of caste discrimination. How how far would it take place in the private


sphere? I feel that further work needs to be done to ensure we start


looking at the evidence, look at how we can protect these communities.


There are real issues in relation to people who feel they are


discriminated against, because they are perceived in a community as


being lesser human beings. That has to be dealt with. Why didn't you


vote? Legislation has two vote. -- legislation has two work. Baroness


Warsi didn't quite represent her position three years ago in that


way. Three years ago she quoted from a report saying that the Labour


government was not going far enough, the Labour Government said that we


should wait, we should conduct research and give a period of


reflection to make sure that when we did exercise the power in secondary


legislation to put caste in as a protected characteristic, that it


would be done in the right way. For three years she has been in


government and no consultation has taken place. Baroness Thornton, who


has been wonderful, she paid huge tribute to Lord Howe is, Baroness


Thornton has listened more in three weeks than your government has in


three years. As a result, you have had to back from your position and


the government has announced that within two months it be lamenting


precisely what the Labour Government said should happen in a few years


time. There will be people watching who will say that surely this is a


no-brainer. Why shouldn't people be protected from caste discrimination


in the UK? I completely agree. former lawyer, let me say, I want a


situation where you provide real protection for people in real lives.


Why can't it because -- be part of the equality act and work as


effectively as it does for others? have spent lots of time listening to


communities from within the Hindu and Sikh community, some who are for


and some who are against, some say that putting it on the statute books


will not deal with what happens in private spheres, quiet


discrimination and intra- community issues. If we can go with what the


government has said it will do, it has said it will bring in through


secondary legislation this Parliament within two months. I pay


tribute to the Association of Hindu organisations which met with shadow


ministers over the past few weeks, with somebody who has brilliantly


represented the views of the community. The point being made by


Sayeeda Warsi is that if it is happening privately... It is not


about a private sphere, Baroness Warsi knows this very well. She has


deliberately clouded the issue. It is very specific legislation and it


is about the provision of services and employment law. As a former


barrister you should have got your facts right, you clouded the issue


by pretending otherwise. To answer your question, the one about what


other ways in which this can be properly implemented, the first


thing is not to do what the government said and have a big


programme of education about caste. Caste is a diminishing issue in the


community in this country, everybody except that. Everybody except that


there is tiny, tiny discrimination, but that everybody is entitled to


redress under the law if they are discriminated against. We don't want


people to be monitored for caste, to register and record their caste. The


community was deeply concerned about that. The government has not


listened. Could there be a U-turn? The government are looking at it


today. I would say that we are actually on the same page. We both


protect people from caste discrimination. , you might like to


say that, but we are not. Are the unions blocking public


service reform? Giles is on the green with one man who thinks they


are, and one man who thinks they are not. I have got Paul Nowak, the


assistant general secretary of the TUC, and Dr Sean Worth, from Policy


Exchange. You seem to suggest there are more people using public


services, less money coming in. You want a revolution in delivery, what


is that? You are right about the challenges, demand is going up and


money is not, we need to bring in innovation and the best possible


providers. You need to give people what they want, a lot more choice,


information and more different providers delivering services.


more private companies... It does not matter. People want protection.


If providers are coming in they want to make sure they are not profiteers


looking for a fast buck, that the services will be there. I have been


saying that there is a hardening sense of militancy in the trade


union movement running the public sector, we need to make sure that


emergency services are protected at all costs. Not being allowed to


strike, which is where you are kicking the hornets nest? I can't


imagine the TUC buying that. But around half of the people surveyed


said they don't mind who provides the service, as long as it is


maintained? It is about opening up public services to the market, more


private sector involvement. It is a bizarre report when tens of billions


of pounds are being taken out of public spending and communities are


under pressure, public services have been decimated right across the


country. And on the day that the public accounts committee has


criticised the government for wasting millions on the academies


programme. For all of public services, Policy Exchange... Does It


Actually Matter? We Just Want Our Services Provided. People Want Good


Quality Public Services That They Can Trust. The Public Says They


Trust The Public Sector To Deliver That. Trade union surveys on this


subject are the only ones which have ever been published. The audit


commission, the public sector and private companies, very clear,


people don't care who is doing the admin, they want very good services.


Policy exchange care. You are not involved in the debate. You work for


a lobby group which represents companies delivering private


healthcare services. At the end of the day, this is about getting the


best bang for the buck for the taxpayer, delivering quality public


services. The idea that the public sector is inherently better is not


You worked in Number Ten, you don't any more. I've heard it from


backbenchers, Steve Hilton is gone, Tim Chatwin has gone. People are


leaving Number Ten. Is it because like you they want to do things and


they think the Government is not going to do them? I worked in


politics for many years before going into Government. I left for


personal reasons. They're all leaving for personal reasons?


They're looking for challenges. The Government needs to hire more


political people right across because there is such a big agenda


to push through. Are you sure it's not because they think this isn't


going to last? Coalition is not as dynamic and idealistic as a


majority Government, obviously. It's certainly not why I left


working in politics. I can't speak for anyone else. Gentlemen, thank


you very much. That's the debate. Can I see it will carry on until


2015. Thank you very much. Now it comes


in two volumes, the first of which is out today. It costs �30 although


I'm told if you shop around you can buy it for less. The book shop


Waterstone's says it's the second most pre-ordered biography of the


year so far. What am I talking about, well the authorised


biography of Baroness Thatcher. It's written by Charles Moore who


we'll talk to in a moment. First, here's a bit about it. It was


conceived in 1997, but it had a number of crucial conditions


attached to it. The book was to be published only after Baroness


Thatcher's death. She never wanted to read it. She didn't want to know


what the people who contributed to it thought of her. Charles Moore


had access to thousands of pages of private and Government papers. And


to the lady herself, with whom he conducted numerous interviews. Is


it any good? Let's ask the man who wrote it, that might be a biased


view. It's very heavy. Was it liberating for you when you were


conducting all the interviews and doing the research, knowing that


she was never going to read it? Very liberating. It was a condition


she laid down from the first, which I was relieved about. I had talked


to people who had written buy yoing Fiz of living politicianed and they


are breathing down their neck and wanting to say wasn't it clever


here and why not say this. Mrs Thatcher said it can't appear in my


lifetime and I'm not allowed to read it, but you have complete


access to everything you could want. Huge responsibility. Huge


responsibility, but a great relief and the extraordinary thing was it


really did surprise me was she never did try to ask me what I was


saying. She didn't change her mind and started to probe you? Not even


one little tiny bit. I was really surprised and delighted because it


meant I could get on with proper work. I feared I would have an


argument where she was wanting the book to be something, never.


Literally never. How would you describe the book then, when you


say she might have influenced it to be something, what do you mean?


Often people want everything to be nice about them, but also they want


to preach a particular message. Neither of those things was I ever,


erm, I'm trying to write and I've written, I think, proper history


for the first time. This is beyond all the Poe legalic, which raged


around her for years and years. Of course, I take account of the Poe


legalic, but I want it to be -- polemic, but I want a stand in


history Andreasen a mixture of a private woman, who I see much more


of through this material than anyone else and the public deeds.


Does it contradict much of what's been written about her beforehand?


It doesn't exactly contradict, but it hugely amplifies and qualifies.


For example, she's a conviction politician. We all know that. But


she's also very, very cautious and a very cunning politician. This


comes up much more strongly by the study of her work. Then of course,


there's the whole aspect of her private life and her youth, which


is very little known. Yes, I mean it's interesting because I've been


reading up some of the notes about it and there were things clearly


that I didn't know about the relationship with her sister, for


example, what was that like? sister was four years older, that's


her only sibling. She was less academic than Margaret. Mural, who


I met was a very strong character, stronger than Margaret. Really?!


Very formidable. Right!Because Margaret said please, everything


can be seen, Muriel showed me letters that Margaret had written


her in her youth. Were they close? Yes, at that time. They maintained


good res. -- Relations. They reveal the whole of her youth from her


school days, through Oxford, early work and her boyfriends. And her


marriage and her children. So they're absolutely, and her love of


clothes and films and things like that. So, for example, three


boyfriends that nobody's ever heard of. To be honest which Mrs Thatcher


most of the time denied. Really? But did admit to me. Who were they?


One who called Tony Bray. A farmer called Willie Cullen, who she


passed over to her sister and who married Muriel. Then there's a Dr


Called Robert Henderson. Very little if anything has been said


about them. Tony Bray nothing before, nothing whatever. A tiny


bit has been said about Willie Cullen and Dr Henderson. What about


her mother. This is slightly obscure. I think it wasn't very


good. Margaret wanted to grow away from her mother. This is known,


what I think is less known is that she very much wanted to grow away


from her farther. We know how much she admired her father, and this is


true. She had a provincial life and she wanted to get into the big


world and quite a lot of letters in the book where the father is


clearly upset that he's not seeing enough of Margaret because Margaret


is getting on with life. I'm sure one reason that Margaret expressed


such loyalty to him when she became famous was that she felt guilty.


Any revelations? In the early life there's this whole the young woman,


the emotional side and the love. In the political life, I think there's


the how did she do it. There's a marvellously interesting memoir she


wrote of the Falklands. She hardly kept a record of anything. She kept


a private record of the Falklands War which she wrote a year after it


happened. Where you see the extraordinary intensity of emotion


and the cin yesterdayible risks involved in it all. -- Are you


looking forward to it? I am disappointed I didn't bring a copy


for Charles to sign while he's here. I will do it for you. It's


fantastic in the way you describe. It I haven't read any of it yet,


but I think the human being behind the politician is what really


interests me because ultimately, I think as politicians we are so


caricatured and demonised and presented in a certain way, to be


able to step away from that and say who was the person and what rooted


her. And who also was the woman. It's interesting and important her


sex. It makes it more interesting than the average politician.


had a very strong relationship with Denis Thatcher. What will her


children think of the book? They've helped me throughout and been very


kind. I hope they'll enjoy it. It's always a bit difficult reading


about your own mother, but I hope they enjoy it. Just quickly to you,


Margaret Thatcher has been criticised for not doing enough to


help other women break the glass ceiling, as a Muslim woman, you sit


in Cabinet, do you think that is part of your role too, to help


other women break through? Long before I came into politics, I used


to, I probably shouldn't say this on national TV, I was constantly


concerned I would be before a tribunal because I went out of my


way to make sure I created opportunities for women. I think


people like to promote and support people who are actually in their


own frame. That's why you see so many men immediately turning to men


when they look for promotion or people to bring into an


organisation. Soy think every woman has an obligation and


responsibility to say, you know, give somebody a go. Charles Moore,


thank you very much. Time before we go to cross to College Green and


talk to John Leech, who has tabled a Parliamentary motion about


something very important. What are you calling for? A change in the


time when the FA Cup final is on, because the FA Cup final this year


is going to be at 5.15pm, which will mean a lot of Wigan fans and


Manchester City fans are not going to be able to return home on the


last train. For the future we want to make sure that the FA Cup gets


its prominence back and is as a stand-alone if fixture on a


Saturday afternoon ot 3pm so everyone can watch it and the fan


kz get home in time after. It can't be changed for this time, it's too


late. It's certainly too late for this year. But for the future we


can make sure some lessons are learned and that fans in the North


West, let's hope that lots of North West clubs are getting to the FA


Cup final year after year, we need to make sure they'll be able to get


back after the game late at night. At the moment, because the FA Cup


final is being held on days when there are other league fixtures,


it's being avoided from 3pm, so that as many fans can watch as


possible. Of course, there are then implications for the fans trying to


return home. Do people care enough these days about the FA Cup for it


to be on a special day or to have it to itself? You tell that to the


25,000-odd Wigan fans that have never been to an FA Cup final


before and you tell that to the 25,000 City fans that will be going


to Wembley for the second time for the FA Cup final in the last three


years. And who do you support?I'm a season ticket holder at


Manchester City. Are you worried people will be distracted bit


Premier League, which you haven't won? Well, unfortunately, the best


team won it this season. The best team won it last season as well.


Hopefully next season it will be a City versus United curtain raiser


for the Charity Shield and then City will go on to win the


championship next year. Would you like to congratulate Manchester


United? Slightly through gritted teeth, but I suppose they have been


the best team this season. Well done. You did it. Thank you very


much for joining us from College Green. Now there's just time to


find out the answer to our quiz. What entertainment if needed is


provide for the members of the House of Lords when they have to


stay for late-night votes. Film screenings, open mic, comedy nights


or Stitch 'n Bitch clubs? From the note I got round it was a movie, I


think we had Skyfall on last time. I think we had Julian Fellowes


talking about Downton Abbey. Why do you need entertainment? I don't


have the time to be entertained. These are late nights, people are


there for a long time in the evening. It passes the time for


people who are waiting for votes. I have the privilege of a huge red


box, soy don't have the opportunity to take part. So you didn't watch


the film, you're not watching the film? I couldn't bear watching


Skyfall with my colleagues. That's all for today. Thanks to my against,


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