23/04/2013 Daily Politics


23/04/2013

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Baroness Warsi and Margaret Thatcher's biographer Charles Moore.


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Politics. It has not quite been the Battle of Bannockburn, the the SNP

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and Treasury spent this morning at war over the pound. George Osborne

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warned the Scottish Nationalists they would have to give up control

:00:54.:00:59.

of key elements of the economy to keep using the pound, should they

:00:59.:01:03.

gain independence. The SNP accused him of scaremongering.

:01:03.:01:08.

It is St George's Day, we will be looking at the English Democrats'

:01:08.:01:12.

local election campaign. She did not want to read it or know

:01:12.:01:16.

what people said about her. The authorised biography of Margaret

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Thatcher is published today. We will be speaking to its author, Charles

:01:20.:01:24.

Moore. Who says there is no important

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Parliamentary business going on? One MP wants a debate on the timing of

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the FA Cup Final! All that in the next hour. With this

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for the duration is Foreign Office Minister Baroness Warsi. Welcome to

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the programme. Let's talk about terror. Following

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the bombing in Boston last week, the Canadian authorities say they have

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foiled an Al-Qaeda supported terrorist attacks. In Madrid, the

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Spanish authorities say they have arrested two suspected members of

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Al-Qaeda who they claim have a similar profile to these suspects in

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the recent attacks in Boston. Our extra precautions being taken here?

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We are on a constant state of alert. We have a substantial threat. It is

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something we are constantly aware of. When situations around the

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world, such as Boston and Canada, happened, we become more aware of

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the threat and the necessary precautions are taken. On the basis

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of what you have said, that we are on constant alert, should be

:02:31.:02:35.

security services funding be cut further? I will not debate what may

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be the outcome of budgetary negotiations in the years to come...

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Would it be safe in the current state we are in? The security of our

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citizens will never be put at risk, whatever the economic climate. The

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security services direct tremendous job. We hear about the occasions,

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sadly, when things go wrong, but they are keeping us safe. I know

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from David Cameron all the way through the government, they will

:03:03.:03:07.

always make sure they are properly supported. That sounds like there

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will not be cuts. I will not in gauge in a discussion that might

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take part between colleagues and the Chancellor, but we will never put

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the security of citizens here or abroad at risk because of austerity.

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Do you think it is irresponsible of MI5 and MI6 to warn, as has been

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reported in the papers, that Great Britain would be vulnerable to a

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terrorist attack if security funding is cut? This is an ongoing thing

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which has happened for a number of weeks. Quite sadly, I think, it has

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been played out in the media. Different departments have to have

:03:43.:03:47.

these discussions with the Treasury at the relevant time is when these

:03:47.:03:51.

decisions are taken about budgets. I am sorry if that sounds like I am

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repeating myself, the reality is that both abroad and at home, the

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security services play an incredibly crucial and vital role which is

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hugely supported. Many public statements have been made by the

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Prime Minister, the Home Secretary, the Foreign Secretary, as to the

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value we place on their work. They will always be properly supported.

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You have Jewish diction, if you like, for affairs in Afghanistan --

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you have jurisdiction. Is around ready to take over responsibility?

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think so. I was in Helmand a few months ago and saw for myself how

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local policing was done by the local forces. More and more of the country

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is protected by Afghan National Security forces. We are still there

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in a training and support capacity. There lots of training -- there are

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lots of issues around the world. But up and down the country, you can see

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they are taking over the security of their country.

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Now it is time for our daily quiz. What entertainment is provided for

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members of the House of Lords when they have to stay for late-night

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votes? Is it burlesque dance classes, film screenings, open my

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comedy nights or stitch and bitch clubs? At the end of the show,

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hopefully side will give us the right answer.

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In 1707, Scotland and England merged their currencies. Will 2014 be the

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year it comes to an end? The UK Chancellor of the Exchequer warned

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this morning that it was unlikely that Scotland's 5 million citizens

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could keep the pound if they voted for independence. Speaking to

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Glasgow business leaders this morning, George Osborne said that

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Glasgow would face an uncertain financial future, with England,

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Wales and Northern Ireland are likely to want a currency zone with

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their newly divorced neighbours. He said it could -- one MP said a

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currency zone could work in the interests of all involved, but this

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is what George Osborne said. would 58 million citizens give away

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some of their sovereignty over monetary and potentially other

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economic policies to 5 million people in another state? Before the

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rest of the UK could ever agree to enter a formal currency union, any

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further you -- any further UK Chancellor of the Exchequer would

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have to provide a British people with a clear and compelling and said

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to the question of sovereignty. The SNP asserts that it would be in

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everyone's interest for an independent Scotland to keep the

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pound is part of a eurozone style sterling's own. But a report we are

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publishing today shows that is not the case. Let's stop speculating and

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look at the evidence. Would the rest of the UK family agreed to take that

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risk? Could a situation where an independent Scotland and the rest of

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the UK share the pound and the Bank of England be made to work?

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Frankly, it is unlikely. There is real -- real doubt about the and to

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these questions. In other words, the only way to be sure to keep the

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pound as the Scottish currency is to stay in the United Kingdom.

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We are now joined by the SNP Treasury spokesman at Westminster,

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Stewart Hosie, and the former Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling, who is

:07:31.:07:41.
:07:41.:07:44.

in Edinburgh and is leading the BETTER together -- Better Together

:07:44.:07:52.

campaign. Was Scotland forced out of sterling,

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the additional business costs for businesses in Northern Ireland,

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Wales and England would be substantial. There is no need.

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Scotland brings a great deal to the currency table, there is a �40

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billion contribution in balancing trade terms with gas and oil. It

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would not make sense for George Osborne or Alistair Darling to run

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around England explaining why they wanted to shred the currency to make

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a political point? If you like the pound so much, why are you going for

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independence? The union is about more than currency, it is tax and

:08:27.:08:31.

spending decisions which every UK Chancellor takes on the behalf of

:08:31.:08:36.

Scotland. We think the big tax and spending decisions should be taken

:08:36.:08:39.

in Scotland on behalf of Scottish people to meet the needs of the

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Scottish people, while sharing a currency which make sense for

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everybody. Alistair Darling, can a currency union be made to work?

:08:49.:08:52.

things have to happen, you have to get the agreement of the other

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country to join it, that is not guaranteed, as we see. Secondly, you

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have to submit to something of a straitjacket, as we see in the

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Eurozone, where both parties agree on budget, tax, spending and so on.

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Thinking about it, the pound is the bedrock of our economy, it is a

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thing about jobs and pensions depend upon. What is becoming clear today

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is that despite the fact that the nationals have asserted there will

:09:21.:09:26.

be a currency union, they have not spoken to anyone else, they cannot

:09:26.:09:30.

guarantee it and they cannot guarantee the pound. That is the

:09:30.:09:35.

case if there is no currency union or you can't agreed the terms and

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conditions, you are driven back to one of two options, you either use

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the currency in the same way that Panama uses the US dollar, which

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would be ruinous for the Scottish financial services industry because

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you would have no central bank, or you are driven to issuing your own

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separate new Scottish currency in the most turbulent times we have

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ever seen, something I noticed that the Scottish finance minister, John

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Swinney, conspicuously failed to rule out twice this morning when

:10:02.:10:09.

asked about it. Nationalist policy is being made up on the hoof, rather

:10:09.:10:13.

like the European Union money said it was automatic, it is not true,

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they said we could rejoin NATO automatically, that is not true,

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they can't guarantee currency union. As we have heard from George

:10:22.:10:27.

Osborne, the rest of the UK does not sound like it wants it. I am sure

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that George Osborne and Alistair Darling will say these things to

:10:31.:10:35.

make it sound dreadfully difficult until we get to the referendum. At

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that point, if there is a yes vote calm minds will come together.

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Alistair Darling has described this as logical and desirable. He also

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said that currency is the bedrock, it is the bedrock of trade, which is

:10:52.:10:56.

why we want to keep it. We do not understand why Alistair would not

:10:56.:11:01.

want to be in that. You wanted to join the euro at some stage, now you

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don't, understandably, because it is in crisis, why do you want a new

:11:07.:11:11.

monetary union between Scotland and England and, if you like, replicate

:11:11.:11:15.

what has happened with the Eurozone and expect the UK to take on the

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risk without close political union? I have explained why it is in

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everyone's best interest. The idea that you have to have political

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union to have a currency union is not true. With Belgium and

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Luxembourg, it did not lead to political union, nor did it lead to

:11:37.:11:41.

tax harmonisation. Are you prepared to accept the constraints that would

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be put on new if you were part of the currency? Are you prepared to

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have your budget look that at Westminster before Holyrood?

:11:52.:12:01.

recognise that for a currency pact. But the stability pact would apply

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to both parts of the union, not just Scotland. There would have to be

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constraints to make sure that nothing got out of hand. Alistair

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Darling, it is clear the government tactic is to make this as difficult

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as possible because they don't want it, that is understandable. Can they

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stop it? Can the government say no? Two of course you can, for a

:12:26.:12:32.

currency union to work, both sides have to be willing partners. Stewart

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Hosie hit on the problem, both sides would have to agree that they moved

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to a situation where their budgets were approved by a foreign country,

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which is what they would be at the time. It is no wonder that the rest

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of the UK might say, we never voted for this, nobody asked us about it.

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Stewart Hosie says this is something that has been raised in the course

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of the campaign, he is asking us to take a massive gamble in believing

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that, firstly, there will be a currency union and, secondly, the

:13:04.:13:06.

terms and conditions would be acceptable to Scotland or the rest

:13:06.:13:11.

of the UK. You can't guarantee that. I believe that the pound is

:13:11.:13:15.

important for trade, I believe that the UK as a whole has done well and

:13:15.:13:20.

will continue to do well. That is so long as we stay part of the mighty

:13:20.:13:26.

kingdom, we are better and stronger together. If you choose to leave the

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UK there are consequences, the Nationalists are trying to hide that

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from people in Scotland and the rest of the UK because they cannot

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guarantee. Alistair Darling, if the SNP, as Stewart Hosie has said, get

:13:41.:13:46.

a clear mandate for independence, is it democratically viable for

:13:46.:13:49.

Westminster to say we are not even going to discuss the idea of a

:13:49.:13:55.

currency union? If Scotland votes for independence and it has a

:13:55.:13:59.

democratic right to do so if that is what the majority choose, we are

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voting to leave the rest of the UK. After that, we decide what we are

:14:03.:14:08.

going to do. We can ask for a currency union but maybe the other

:14:08.:14:13.

side to not want to play, or the terms and conditions might be such

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that you have such budgetary restrictions that you do not have

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independence at all. A currency union takes you to an economic and

:14:20.:14:25.

then a political union. Or if the currency unit does not work -- the

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currency union does not work or you do not like it, you are either left

:14:30.:14:35.

with using sterling, and heaven help the financial services industry in

:14:35.:14:40.

Scotland if they had no central bank, or you set out on an uncharted

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course with your own currency. This is Scotland's decision, I am

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Scottish, sitting in the capital of Scotland, I do not want to see my

:14:48.:14:52.

country gambled with. I want to ensure the best possible option for

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my country, which is why I think we are better and stronger together.

:14:56.:15:00.

What is your Plan B in the event of no currency union, added sounds

:15:00.:15:04.

increasingly like that will not happen? I disagree.What is your

:15:04.:15:10.

Plan B? There will be a lot of hysterical stuff said by the no

:15:10.:15:14.

campaign in the run up to September. You keep a currency union which

:15:14.:15:20.

works, you keep it to reduce columns -- transaction cost is, you do not

:15:21.:15:26.

shred the currency by taking �40 billion just to make a political

:15:26.:15:31.

point in the run-up to the referendum. Alastair is wrong. Of

:15:31.:15:35.

course they will be strident and assertive, of course they will say

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it is dreadfully difficult. What about economic question the

:15:37.:15:43.

financial markets are not just going to take on trust the

:15:43.:15:46.

creditworthiness of an independent Scotland? They will not just say,

:15:46.:15:51.

you are right, we trust you, it will be fine. When you go into a currency

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union, Alistair Darling is talking about that risk to the British

:15:55.:15:58.

economy as it stands. I think it would be far better to have a

:15:58.:16:03.

sensible discussion about the markets, about guilt assurance in

:16:03.:16:09.

Scotland. It is right that the credit aid gin seas may say that

:16:09.:16:15.

Scotland has no history of those issues, but given the Scottish

:16:15.:16:20.

economy is in a better position than the UK, with a lower deficit, lower

:16:20.:16:23.

net debt, better in employment and higher growth, the underlying

:16:23.:16:27.

economic's means that there is no certainty at all that Scotland would

:16:27.:16:32.

have higher borrowing costs, which is the scare story the no campaign

:16:32.:16:42.
:16:42.:16:47.

I'm in favour of what we have at the moment where we have the United

:16:47.:16:52.

Kingdom, where we have the two economies working well together.

:16:52.:16:54.

The question before us and before people in Scotland is whether or

:16:54.:16:58.

not you want to break that up. What the Nationalists are asking us to

:16:58.:17:02.

do is to vote to separate, leave the UK, but by the way, we want to

:17:02.:17:07.

get back into an arrangement with the currency. It's similar -- it

:17:07.:17:11.

won't wash. You're right to ask Stewart Hosie and the Nationalists

:17:11.:17:15.

what is plan B, because if you can't get the currency union or the

:17:15.:17:18.

terms are unacceptable because they're putting controls over your

:17:18.:17:22.

budgets and so on, as we see in the eurozone, what is your plan B? Are

:17:23.:17:28.

we going have a new currency? That is going into uncharted water. Most

:17:28.:17:31.

people in Scotland would want nothing to do with. It the pound

:17:31.:17:36.

matters to us, for our jobs and our savings, pension tooz. Which is why

:17:36.:17:40.

we want to keep it. Why do you want to leave the UK in the first place?

:17:40.:17:45.

The union is about more than just currency. It's about George Osborne

:17:45.:17:50.

with an austerity budget, with a trillion pound deficit, with the

:17:50.:17:54.

deficit approaching 100% of GDP and with decisions like the bedroom tax

:17:54.:17:57.

being taken not in the interests of Scottish people. It's about all the

:17:57.:18:01.

other tax and spend decisions not just the currency. As both of us

:18:01.:18:05.

know, we are not voting for the next Government for the next five

:18:05.:18:09.

years. You are voting for something that could last for 300 years.

:18:09.:18:13.

You're asking us to take a gamble. You know, the SNP is the party that

:18:13.:18:17.

told us they had a legal opinion that said we'd automatically get

:18:17.:18:20.

into the European Union. It turned out to be complete nonsense. Now

:18:20.:18:25.

they're trying to bluster their way through an argument that is central

:18:25.:18:28.

to the credibility and it's been blown apart. Thank you very much.

:18:28.:18:33.

You have the final word on this. What do you say to Stewart Hosie?

:18:33.:18:37.

What I say is that it was important to raise the issue of the debate on

:18:37.:18:42.

independence, but now is when the real debate starts, the reasonable,

:18:42.:18:46.

practical, pragmatic approach to what that means in reality. What

:18:46.:18:50.

Alistair Darling has said is correct. Can you raise the

:18:50.:18:53.

overarching issue of we want independence, but it will boil down

:18:53.:18:57.

to the real practical measures and how it will impact upon Scotland.

:18:57.:19:01.

Unfortunately, the answers are not clear from the SNP as to what that

:19:01.:19:04.

will mean for the Scottish people. Thank you very much.

:19:04.:19:09.

The local elections are over a week away and what with it being St

:19:09.:19:12.

George's Day and all that we thought, who better to nail their

:19:12.:19:15.

patriotic colours to the mast than the English Democrats. The party

:19:15.:19:24.

was unveiled in 2002, after Robin Tilbrook's English National Party

:19:24.:19:28.

merged with other paertsz. Their policy for a creation of a devolves

:19:28.:19:32.

English Parliament. It's not clear how many members the party has.

:19:32.:19:36.

Robin Tilbrook claims it's around 3,000. In the May elections they

:19:36.:19:41.

are fielding 39 candidates with 23 of them standing in Kent. They're

:19:41.:19:45.

putting up three district councillors. Their biggest achieve

:19:45.:19:50.

to date is when Peter Davies won Doncaster in 2009. He resigned from

:19:51.:19:53.

the party in February concerned with the number of people joining

:19:53.:19:56.

from the British National Party. The leader of the English Democrats,

:19:56.:20:00.

Robin Tilbrook is with us. Welcome to the programme. Davies zaif

:20:00.:20:04.

Davies the mayor of Doncaster resigned from the party concerned

:20:04.:20:09.

about the number of former BNP members joining the party. Was he

:20:09.:20:15.

right? No, the number of the people joining from the BNP is fairly

:20:15.:20:19.

small. It happened a year or so ago. It was old news any way. Peter, on

:20:19.:20:24.

the other hand, is somebody who is now an ex-sul porter of six parties

:20:24.:20:28.

and he is one of those people that is quite difficult to work with. He

:20:28.:20:33.

glorifies in the title of being the maverick mayor. You're pleased he's

:20:33.:20:37.

gone? We think we have a better candidate standing. We are getting

:20:37.:20:41.

a very good response from people in Doncaster. I'm hopeful we will win

:20:41.:20:45.

again. Do you stand by your comments thaw made at the 10th

:20:45.:20:50.

annual conference in Leicester in September 2011, the BNP supporters

:20:50.:20:57.

are joining us. They will help us become a credible party. We need

:20:57.:21:01.

not be too defensive. I think that's right. You just said there

:21:01.:21:05.

weren't that many BNP joining the party, are there? What numbers are

:21:05.:21:10.

we talking about? Out of about 3,000 members that we've got,

:21:10.:21:15.

probably about 200 or 300 who are ex-BNP. That doesn't worry you at

:21:15.:21:19.

all? No, as long as they are genuine converts to what we are

:21:19.:21:24.

talking about, I'm not bothered about it. Does it worry you? If 10%

:21:24.:21:29.

of my membership was an ex-extreme right-wing party it would worry me.

:21:29.:21:32.

The concerns that Peter Davies has raised have been raised by a number

:21:32.:21:36.

of organisations. There are a lot of NGOs and third-sector

:21:36.:21:42.

organisation who's work in the area of monitoring extreme right-wing

:21:42.:21:46.

movements. This has been happening for a number of years, as the BNP

:21:46.:21:50.

has lost support, much of the hard core supporters have drifted into

:21:50.:21:54.

other parties. Converted to the policies of the English Democrats?

:21:54.:22:01.

Look, you know, however much people convert, if 10 mers of the -- 10%

:22:01.:22:06.

of the party membership are ex- members of an extreme party that

:22:06.:22:11.

should worry you. You were somebody who was talking about joining

:22:11.:22:16.

Labour, weren't you? That's a complete nonsense. The fact is that

:22:16.:22:21.

people are able to change their mind and they should be allowed to,

:22:21.:22:25.

within reason. What we're looking at is a situation where people are

:22:25.:22:31.

becoming more and more concerned about English national identity.

:22:31.:22:37.

The census from 2011 show that something like 70% of people in

:22:37.:22:41.

England consider themself English. 60% of those said they were English

:22:41.:22:45.

only. English national identity is the issue that's rising up the

:22:45.:22:50.

political spectrum. It is important that there should be a moderate,

:22:50.:22:52.

sensible English Nationalist Party to represent that view. We are that

:22:52.:22:57.

party. Many people are incredibly proud of being English. The patron

:22:57.:23:03.

saint, St George's Day, who we're celebrating today, St George was of

:23:03.:23:08.

Palestinian origin. He wasn't a white man from the shires. He was

:23:08.:23:14.

Greek. He was half Greek and half Palestinian. Therefore, I think you

:23:14.:23:17.

know the kind of people you are attracting from the British

:23:17.:23:20.

National Party are exactly the kind of people who would see anybody who

:23:20.:23:26.

was not white as not acceptable. Salute nonsense. We have stood non-

:23:26.:23:29.

white candidates. We're happy to do so. We are happy to have people

:23:29.:23:34.

join us who are genuine converts to our party. Any sensible party would

:23:34.:23:38.

do so. The Conservative Party, undoubtedly has people in it who

:23:38.:23:44.

are ex-BNP as well. Labour has at least two Councillor who's are ex-

:23:44.:23:48.

BNP activists, in one case a person who was a BNP Councillor. It's a

:23:48.:23:51.

ridiculous point to say you shouldn't allow people to change

:23:51.:23:55.

their minds. This is politics, this is grown-up politics. People change

:23:55.:23:59.

their minds. It's perfectly fair and reasonable to do so. Is it a

:23:59.:24:02.

failure of mainstream parties as well that actually, the English

:24:02.:24:06.

Democrats are taking an issue that is important in many people's minds

:24:06.:24:10.

and hasn't been dealt with in terms of patriotism, in terms of English

:24:10.:24:13.

identity. The Conservative Party has failed to address it.

:24:13.:24:17.

wouldn't agree with that at all. If you look at everything that we've

:24:17.:24:20.

been doing and what the Department for Communities and Local

:24:20.:24:24.

Government have been doing, we're flying the flag today. I draped

:24:24.:24:27.

myself in a Union flag when we celebrated the Royal Wedding and it

:24:27.:24:31.

went to the Olympics. You don't need to be nasty and extreme right-

:24:31.:24:35.

wing to be patriotic. I'm deeply patriotic. I'm proud of being

:24:35.:24:38.

English. I'm proud of being a Yorkshire woman. I don't feel the

:24:38.:24:41.

need to sign up to some of the views of the British National Party

:24:41.:24:47.

to do that. To drape your self-in the Union Jack shows the confusion.

:24:47.:24:53.

The Union Jack is not an emblem of England. I never said it was.It's

:24:53.:25:00.

an emblem of being English. I was proud of being English. St George's

:25:00.:25:04.

Day, according to the BBC website, St George was from Turkey. We won't

:25:04.:25:08.

get into a discussion. It's now Turkey. 500 years later he was

:25:08.:25:14.

martyred in 303. How are you celebrating? Well, standard, good

:25:14.:25:17.

old fashioned roast beef and I'm geeing to be thoroughly enjoying

:25:17.:25:24.

the day. I have my rose... Should it be a bank holiday? Yes, we're

:25:24.:25:28.

only the party campaigning for it to be a bank holiday. Obviously

:25:28.:25:31.

what we want is a proper celebration of England's national

:25:31.:25:35.

day. Are you celebrating? Of course I am. I celebrate being English

:25:35.:25:39.

every single day. I don't need to put a badge on to say I'm English.

:25:39.:25:45.

Thank you very much. Now, our guest of the day is also minister for

:25:45.:25:51.

faith and communities and looks to highlights problems relating to

:25:51.:25:54.

attacks and discrimination against ethnic communities. Does

:25:54.:25:58.

Islamophobia pass the dinner-table test? Baroness Warsi went out to

:25:58.:26:08.
:26:08.:26:11.

see for herself. I'm here at theality ring ham

:26:11.:26:15.

Islamic Cultural Centre. This building was an unused chapel. It

:26:15.:26:19.

was bought by the Muslim community and now provides essential services

:26:19.:26:26.

for local communities. This is a progressive, open, confident,

:26:26.:26:29.

successful community. It has great relations with the local churches,

:26:29.:26:34.

with synagogues and other faithes. But despite that, it still doesn't

:26:34.:26:37.

stop them being subjected to anti- Muslim hatred and anti-Muslim

:26:37.:26:46.

attacks. Welcome. I see you brought the sunshine with you. I did, I

:26:46.:26:52.

brought it over the Pennines. I was shown around the centre and

:26:52.:26:57.

explained what had happened here. How many attacks have you had on

:26:57.:27:01.

the centre? We had about ten to 12 attacks. Those windows were smashed,

:27:01.:27:05.

windows on both sides of the hall smashed. In the past graffiti was

:27:05.:27:09.

put on both halls and been set on fire. Having said all that, we have

:27:09.:27:12.

very good relationship with our neighbours. They keep an eye on the

:27:12.:27:18.

centre. Just for the sake of one or two bad apples, we don't want to

:27:18.:27:22.

tarnish the whole community over these attacks. Sadly, however,

:27:22.:27:26.

these sorts of attacks are not just limited to religious buildings.

:27:26.:27:30.

They are taking place across the country and are blighting victims'

:27:30.:27:34.

daily lives. Women have had veils torn from their heads. Children

:27:34.:27:39.

have been physically assaulted at school. And families have been

:27:39.:27:45.

continually targeted, some even driven from their homes. Matthew

:27:45.:27:47.

Goodwin is an academic from the University of Nottingham. He's

:27:47.:27:52.

conducted research into the area of extremism. His work has shown that

:27:52.:27:57.

this problem is under reported. Compared to other forms of

:27:58.:28:03.

prejudice, Andy Semitism, racism, those kind of --ant Semitism,

:28:03.:28:09.

racism, those kind of prejudices, it's 2013 and we only just have a

:28:09.:28:11.

system in place to monitor attacks against Muslim communities.

:28:11.:28:15.

Alongside that, there's a bigger challenge going on here. That's a

:28:15.:28:19.

large reservoir of public hostility towards British Muslim communities,

:28:19.:28:24.

49%, almost one out of every two citizens rejected the idea that

:28:24.:28:27.

Muslims were compatible with the British way of life. Two years ago,

:28:28.:28:31.

I said that Islamophobia had passed the dinner-table test. What I meant

:28:32.:28:36.

by that was that unfortunately, anti-Muslim sentiment was found in

:28:36.:28:40.

the most civilised of settings. Two years on, evidence supports that

:28:40.:28:45.

statement. But the good news is that Government is finally dealing

:28:45.:28:52.

with the issue and it's now a priority.

:28:52.:28:59.

The experience here in this quiet, leafy suburb shows anti-Muslim

:28:59.:29:04.

attacks can happen any time, any place. As I've said before, an

:29:04.:29:10.

attack on one community is an attack on all of us. We must rise

:29:10.:29:14.

against this intolerance and bigotry and together, we must stamp

:29:14.:29:24.
:29:24.:29:28.

We're joined now by Professor Ted Cantle who works with iCoCo who

:29:28.:29:31.

works with community cohesion and author of the Cantle Report.

:29:31.:29:34.

Welcome to the programme. Would you agree there is a problem with

:29:34.:29:40.

Muslim hate crimes? Very definitely. There's been a very big increase.

:29:40.:29:44.

As was explained in your piece there. And Muslims are far more

:29:44.:29:47.

likely than any other group to say they've experienced prejudice. So

:29:47.:29:52.

there's no doubt about that. What about the way the Muslim community

:29:52.:30:02.
:30:02.:30:08.

community as if it was one community. The vast majority of

:30:08.:30:12.

Muslims in Britain are not associated with terrorism or any of

:30:12.:30:17.

this agenda. We have to be very clear, this is a small section.

:30:17.:30:22.

Sayeeda Warsi, how is the government dealing with this? We set up the

:30:22.:30:25.

cross government group on anti-Muslim hatred which brings

:30:25.:30:28.

together civil servants from all government departments who would

:30:28.:30:33.

have an interest and have to deal with this issue. We have also funded

:30:33.:30:40.

-- funded a project which is monitoring anti-muscle attacks. This

:30:41.:30:45.

effectively monitors online hatred, it is for people to report

:30:45.:30:50.

anti-Muslim attacks. It is working with mosques, myself, and the

:30:50.:30:57.

secretary of state Eric Pickles, we went to every mosque in the UK, we

:30:57.:31:00.

talked about what opportunities they were, how they could report, how

:31:01.:31:06.

victim support would step in. Professor Ted Cantle, does the

:31:06.:31:11.

government have the right approach? Unfortunately, I think it doesn't.

:31:11.:31:16.

It is important to identify hate crime against Muslims, to set up a

:31:16.:31:21.

special initiative is very dangerous, it just perpetuates the

:31:21.:31:26.

situation we have had. Yesterday I was on BBC Radio Sheffield talking

:31:26.:31:32.

about hate crime against the Roma community. This morning I was on LBC

:31:32.:31:36.

talking about racist attacks on the London Underground. The more we

:31:36.:31:39.

single out the Muslim community for special treatment the more, I think,

:31:39.:31:46.

ironically, we are making matters worse. We have to see hate crime

:31:46.:31:50.

more generally, including those with special needs, subject to the most

:31:50.:31:54.

vicious hate crime recently, and make sure we are tackling this as

:31:54.:32:01.

one community, not as a series of specialist groups? So the government

:32:01.:32:04.

approach is counter-productive? have a lot of time for Ted, I

:32:04.:32:08.

remember him when we were dealing with the fallout from the Bradford

:32:08.:32:14.

riots. But I think his understanding is fundamentally flawed. There are

:32:14.:32:21.

very specific challenges that we as a country face. Wider Muslim

:32:21.:32:25.

community specifically, why not hate -- hate crime against different

:32:25.:32:30.

communities? We had a cross government working group on

:32:30.:32:35.

anti-Semitism, it still exists and it has been hugely successful.

:32:35.:32:40.

looking at Muslim hatred we did not feel the need to reinvent wheel, but

:32:40.:32:45.

to look at something which worked. If you look at these statistics for

:32:45.:32:49.

disaggregated religious hate crime, hate crime as a whole, but which

:32:49.:32:54.

communities most being impacted, almost 60 % of religious hate crime

:32:54.:32:59.

is directed towards the dish muslin community. I think it is worse than

:32:59.:33:03.

that, this government is developing initiatives singling out separate

:33:03.:33:08.

communities. We are giving money to church groups, Christian

:33:08.:33:12.

communities, Muslim communities, and presiding over the explosion of

:33:12.:33:18.

faith schools for Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jewish people, even

:33:18.:33:23.

evangelical Christians. Is it any wonder that children are growing up

:33:23.:33:28.

with prejudiced views when they are separated almost at birth? We have

:33:28.:33:34.

to end the way in which we have Balkanised our education system. I

:33:34.:33:39.

don't see that this government is trying to create an integrated

:33:39.:33:43.

society. Faith schools have led to segregation, in the view of

:33:43.:33:50.

Professor Ted Cantle? Is it right to faith school -- to have faith

:33:50.:33:54.

schools which in some cases... Educationally, of course, people

:33:54.:34:00.

believe they are successful, but do they reinforce separation between

:34:00.:34:03.

communities? I don't think so, I think in some areas they provide the

:34:03.:34:09.

only form of a decent, strong education. The push that Michael

:34:09.:34:17.

Gove has had on academies and free schools, in many areas... Does it

:34:17.:34:21.

reinforce separate the spit in communities? I have seen faith

:34:21.:34:26.

schools in action. Talking about the British Muslim community, the amount

:34:26.:34:32.

of faith state schools which are Muslim faith schools is probably in

:34:32.:34:38.

single digits. Compared that to the number of... Why did your government

:34:38.:34:42.

take the duty to promote community cohesion in schools out of the

:34:42.:34:46.

Ofsted regime? The one thing that was going on in schools which was

:34:46.:34:50.

helping schools from different backgrounds get together has been

:34:50.:34:54.

removed from the Ofsted regime. Schools are no longer taking this

:34:54.:34:58.

seriously, and all the cohesion resources at local level in

:34:58.:35:02.

voluntary sector bodies have been cut back so that, really, there is

:35:02.:35:06.

nothing going on with regards to integration, and we are about to

:35:06.:35:11.

face a new wave, probably, of Romanian and Bulgarian migration,

:35:11.:35:15.

which will not be as big as people say but we are not preparing for

:35:15.:35:20.

integration in the way the government said it would. Answer the

:35:20.:35:30.
:35:30.:35:31.

question on a huge and being taken out of Ofsted? There was a juicy,

:35:31.:35:35.

that did not necessarily mean it was happening in schools. -- there was a

:35:35.:35:42.

GT. I would say that any school with a diverse range of pupils would be

:35:42.:35:46.

considering dealing with issues of inter-faith relations, community

:35:46.:35:51.

cohesion, as part of what the headteacher would set as it vision.

:35:51.:35:55.

We are not a prescriptive government, just because you have a

:35:55.:35:59.

tick box which says we have a duty of community cohesion and we have

:35:59.:36:04.

take that, that does not mean it is happening. We have moved away from

:36:04.:36:09.

the site load approach, single group funding. Let's have a meeting and

:36:09.:36:13.

tell you about what we are really doing. You to have a meeting, then

:36:13.:36:21.

come back to the programme. Thank you very much. Last night the House

:36:21.:36:24.

of Lords voted to outlaw caste discrimination amongst Asians,

:36:24.:36:29.

something which has been proclaimed as a big step.

:36:29.:36:37.

The government said it had set up an education programme to tackle caste

:36:37.:36:40.

discrimination, but Piers said that this was not enough and the law had

:36:40.:36:46.

to be changed. Here is a flavour of the debate.

:36:46.:36:55.

We believe that the time is already overdue for it to be stated that

:36:55.:36:59.

discrimination on caste in the public sphere, like any other -- any

:36:59.:37:05.

other discrimination, is not acceptable. It is contrary to the

:37:05.:37:10.

culture and values of our society and should be seen to be illegal.

:37:10.:37:15.

The government has come a long way in thinking about this. We part

:37:15.:37:20.

company because we believe that we need to pass this amendment is now,

:37:20.:37:28.

we need to get the legislation on the statute book and we need to then

:37:28.:37:32.

resolve the issues that flow from that. That is why we are supporting

:37:32.:37:42.
:37:42.:37:43.

Lord Harry's game. -- supporting Lord Harris again. There needs to be

:37:43.:37:50.

action to address this problem. The government is prepared to act, we

:37:50.:37:53.

need to make sure we do this in the right way and that we consider all

:37:53.:37:58.

the issues before we act and not afterwards. For that reason, I hope

:37:58.:38:04.

very much that the noble and reverend Lord is able to withdraw

:38:04.:38:09.

his amendment in the house and that he accepts the motion put forward.

:38:09.:38:14.

We believe it is very important to make it quite clear that legislation

:38:14.:38:18.

is necessary to protect people. I feel we have had such a serious

:38:18.:38:22.

debate tonight and the issues have been so thoroughly debated that it

:38:22.:38:29.

is right that the opinion of this house should be tested.

:38:29.:38:37.

Joining us as Barry Gardiner MP, chair of Labour friends of India.

:38:37.:38:41.

Why can't the government support legislation to outlaw caste

:38:41.:38:47.

discrimination? This debate started whilst I was in opposition. I took

:38:47.:38:52.

the equalities act through on behalf of the opposition. Labour were in a

:38:52.:38:55.

very different position, they did not think there was evidence to

:38:55.:39:01.

bring it in place, I said, let's keep a power... Did you vote for the

:39:01.:39:06.

legislation? I said that we should retain this power so that in the

:39:06.:39:10.

future when we had the evidence, we should bring it back into

:39:10.:39:15.

legislation. Since then, there has been researched and as to the extent

:39:15.:39:25.

of caste discrimination. How how far would it take place in the private

:39:25.:39:31.

sphere? I feel that further work needs to be done to ensure we start

:39:31.:39:36.

looking at the evidence, look at how we can protect these communities.

:39:36.:39:39.

There are real issues in relation to people who feel they are

:39:39.:39:45.

discriminated against, because they are perceived in a community as

:39:45.:39:51.

being lesser human beings. That has to be dealt with. Why didn't you

:39:51.:40:01.
:40:01.:40:01.

vote? Legislation has two vote. -- legislation has two work. Baroness

:40:02.:40:04.

Warsi didn't quite represent her position three years ago in that

:40:04.:40:09.

way. Three years ago she quoted from a report saying that the Labour

:40:09.:40:12.

government was not going far enough, the Labour Government said that we

:40:13.:40:17.

should wait, we should conduct research and give a period of

:40:17.:40:21.

reflection to make sure that when we did exercise the power in secondary

:40:21.:40:25.

legislation to put caste in as a protected characteristic, that it

:40:25.:40:32.

would be done in the right way. For three years she has been in

:40:32.:40:34.

government and no consultation has taken place. Baroness Thornton, who

:40:34.:40:44.
:40:44.:40:45.

has been wonderful, she paid huge tribute to Lord Howe is, Baroness

:40:45.:40:48.

Thornton has listened more in three weeks than your government has in

:40:48.:40:52.

three years. As a result, you have had to back from your position and

:40:52.:40:56.

the government has announced that within two months it be lamenting

:40:56.:40:59.

precisely what the Labour Government said should happen in a few years

:40:59.:41:05.

time. There will be people watching who will say that surely this is a

:41:05.:41:10.

no-brainer. Why shouldn't people be protected from caste discrimination

:41:10.:41:18.

in the UK? I completely agree. former lawyer, let me say, I want a

:41:18.:41:23.

situation where you provide real protection for people in real lives.

:41:23.:41:29.

Why can't it because -- be part of the equality act and work as

:41:29.:41:37.

effectively as it does for others? have spent lots of time listening to

:41:37.:41:43.

communities from within the Hindu and Sikh community, some who are for

:41:43.:41:48.

and some who are against, some say that putting it on the statute books

:41:48.:41:52.

will not deal with what happens in private spheres, quiet

:41:53.:41:58.

discrimination and intra- community issues. If we can go with what the

:41:58.:42:02.

government has said it will do, it has said it will bring in through

:42:02.:42:09.

secondary legislation this Parliament within two months. I pay

:42:09.:42:15.

tribute to the Association of Hindu organisations which met with shadow

:42:15.:42:21.

ministers over the past few weeks, with somebody who has brilliantly

:42:21.:42:25.

represented the views of the community. The point being made by

:42:25.:42:31.

Sayeeda Warsi is that if it is happening privately... It is not

:42:31.:42:35.

about a private sphere, Baroness Warsi knows this very well. She has

:42:35.:42:39.

deliberately clouded the issue. It is very specific legislation and it

:42:40.:42:44.

is about the provision of services and employment law. As a former

:42:44.:42:48.

barrister you should have got your facts right, you clouded the issue

:42:48.:42:54.

by pretending otherwise. To answer your question, the one about what

:42:54.:42:57.

other ways in which this can be properly implemented, the first

:42:57.:43:01.

thing is not to do what the government said and have a big

:43:01.:43:06.

programme of education about caste. Caste is a diminishing issue in the

:43:06.:43:13.

community in this country, everybody except that. Everybody except that

:43:13.:43:17.

there is tiny, tiny discrimination, but that everybody is entitled to

:43:18.:43:21.

redress under the law if they are discriminated against. We don't want

:43:21.:43:28.

people to be monitored for caste, to register and record their caste. The

:43:28.:43:31.

community was deeply concerned about that. The government has not

:43:31.:43:36.

listened. Could there be a U-turn? The government are looking at it

:43:36.:43:45.

today. I would say that we are actually on the same page. We both

:43:46.:43:49.

protect people from caste discrimination. , you might like to

:43:49.:43:54.

say that, but we are not. Are the unions blocking public

:43:54.:43:58.

service reform? Giles is on the green with one man who thinks they

:43:58.:44:03.

are, and one man who thinks they are not. I have got Paul Nowak, the

:44:03.:44:13.
:44:13.:44:13.

assistant general secretary of the TUC, and Dr Sean Worth, from Policy

:44:13.:44:17.

Exchange. You seem to suggest there are more people using public

:44:17.:44:22.

services, less money coming in. You want a revolution in delivery, what

:44:23.:44:27.

is that? You are right about the challenges, demand is going up and

:44:27.:44:30.

money is not, we need to bring in innovation and the best possible

:44:30.:44:35.

providers. You need to give people what they want, a lot more choice,

:44:35.:44:41.

information and more different providers delivering services.

:44:41.:44:47.

more private companies... It does not matter. People want protection.

:44:47.:44:50.

If providers are coming in they want to make sure they are not profiteers

:44:51.:44:55.

looking for a fast buck, that the services will be there. I have been

:44:55.:44:59.

saying that there is a hardening sense of militancy in the trade

:44:59.:45:03.

union movement running the public sector, we need to make sure that

:45:03.:45:06.

emergency services are protected at all costs. Not being allowed to

:45:06.:45:11.

strike, which is where you are kicking the hornets nest? I can't

:45:12.:45:16.

imagine the TUC buying that. But around half of the people surveyed

:45:16.:45:22.

said they don't mind who provides the service, as long as it is

:45:22.:45:27.

maintained? It is about opening up public services to the market, more

:45:27.:45:31.

private sector involvement. It is a bizarre report when tens of billions

:45:31.:45:34.

of pounds are being taken out of public spending and communities are

:45:34.:45:39.

under pressure, public services have been decimated right across the

:45:39.:45:42.

country. And on the day that the public accounts committee has

:45:42.:45:46.

criticised the government for wasting millions on the academies

:45:46.:45:56.
:45:56.:46:00.

programme. For all of public services, Policy Exchange... Does It

:46:00.:46:07.

Actually Matter? We Just Want Our Services Provided. People Want Good

:46:07.:46:11.

Quality Public Services That They Can Trust. The Public Says They

:46:11.:46:21.
:46:21.:46:21.

Trust The Public Sector To Deliver That. Trade union surveys on this

:46:21.:46:26.

subject are the only ones which have ever been published. The audit

:46:26.:46:31.

commission, the public sector and private companies, very clear,

:46:31.:46:37.

people don't care who is doing the admin, they want very good services.

:46:37.:46:47.
:46:47.:46:47.

Policy exchange care. You are not involved in the debate. You work for

:46:48.:46:51.

a lobby group which represents companies delivering private

:46:51.:46:54.

healthcare services. At the end of the day, this is about getting the

:46:54.:46:58.

best bang for the buck for the taxpayer, delivering quality public

:46:58.:47:03.

services. The idea that the public sector is inherently better is not

:47:03.:47:13.
:47:13.:47:15.

You worked in Number Ten, you don't any more. I've heard it from

:47:15.:47:20.

backbenchers, Steve Hilton is gone, Tim Chatwin has gone. People are

:47:20.:47:23.

leaving Number Ten. Is it because like you they want to do things and

:47:23.:47:28.

they think the Government is not going to do them? I worked in

:47:28.:47:32.

politics for many years before going into Government. I left for

:47:33.:47:35.

personal reasons. They're all leaving for personal reasons?

:47:35.:47:38.

They're looking for challenges. The Government needs to hire more

:47:38.:47:41.

political people right across because there is such a big agenda

:47:41.:47:45.

to push through. Are you sure it's not because they think this isn't

:47:45.:47:52.

going to last? Coalition is not as dynamic and idealistic as a

:47:52.:47:55.

majority Government, obviously. It's certainly not why I left

:47:55.:47:58.

working in politics. I can't speak for anyone else. Gentlemen, thank

:47:58.:48:02.

you very much. That's the debate. Can I see it will carry on until

:48:02.:48:06.

2015. Thank you very much. Now it comes

:48:06.:48:11.

in two volumes, the first of which is out today. It costs �30 although

:48:11.:48:16.

I'm told if you shop around you can buy it for less. The book shop

:48:16.:48:19.

Waterstone's says it's the second most pre-ordered biography of the

:48:19.:48:23.

year so far. What am I talking about, well the authorised

:48:23.:48:28.

biography of Baroness Thatcher. It's written by Charles Moore who

:48:28.:48:33.

we'll talk to in a moment. First, here's a bit about it. It was

:48:33.:48:36.

conceived in 1997, but it had a number of crucial conditions

:48:36.:48:40.

attached to it. The book was to be published only after Baroness

:48:40.:48:44.

Thatcher's death. She never wanted to read it. She didn't want to know

:48:44.:48:49.

what the people who contributed to it thought of her. Charles Moore

:48:49.:48:55.

had access to thousands of pages of private and Government papers. And

:48:55.:48:59.

to the lady herself, with whom he conducted numerous interviews. Is

:48:59.:49:04.

it any good? Let's ask the man who wrote it, that might be a biased

:49:04.:49:10.

view. It's very heavy. Was it liberating for you when you were

:49:10.:49:12.

conducting all the interviews and doing the research, knowing that

:49:12.:49:17.

she was never going to read it? Very liberating. It was a condition

:49:17.:49:21.

she laid down from the first, which I was relieved about. I had talked

:49:21.:49:25.

to people who had written buy yoing Fiz of living politicianed and they

:49:25.:49:30.

are breathing down their neck and wanting to say wasn't it clever

:49:30.:49:35.

here and why not say this. Mrs Thatcher said it can't appear in my

:49:35.:49:39.

lifetime and I'm not allowed to read it, but you have complete

:49:39.:49:43.

access to everything you could want. Huge responsibility. Huge

:49:43.:49:47.

responsibility, but a great relief and the extraordinary thing was it

:49:47.:49:51.

really did surprise me was she never did try to ask me what I was

:49:51.:49:55.

saying. She didn't change her mind and started to probe you? Not even

:49:55.:49:59.

one little tiny bit. I was really surprised and delighted because it

:49:59.:50:02.

meant I could get on with proper work. I feared I would have an

:50:02.:50:06.

argument where she was wanting the book to be something, never.

:50:06.:50:10.

Literally never. How would you describe the book then, when you

:50:10.:50:14.

say she might have influenced it to be something, what do you mean?

:50:14.:50:17.

Often people want everything to be nice about them, but also they want

:50:17.:50:22.

to preach a particular message. Neither of those things was I ever,

:50:22.:50:27.

erm, I'm trying to write and I've written, I think, proper history

:50:27.:50:31.

for the first time. This is beyond all the Poe legalic, which raged

:50:31.:50:35.

around her for years and years. Of course, I take account of the Poe

:50:35.:50:42.

legalic, but I want it to be -- polemic, but I want a stand in

:50:42.:50:46.

history Andreasen a mixture of a private woman, who I see much more

:50:46.:50:50.

of through this material than anyone else and the public deeds.

:50:50.:50:54.

Does it contradict much of what's been written about her beforehand?

:50:54.:50:59.

It doesn't exactly contradict, but it hugely amplifies and qualifies.

:50:59.:51:02.

For example, she's a conviction politician. We all know that. But

:51:02.:51:07.

she's also very, very cautious and a very cunning politician. This

:51:07.:51:11.

comes up much more strongly by the study of her work. Then of course,

:51:11.:51:13.

there's the whole aspect of her private life and her youth, which

:51:13.:51:17.

is very little known. Yes, I mean it's interesting because I've been

:51:17.:51:20.

reading up some of the notes about it and there were things clearly

:51:20.:51:23.

that I didn't know about the relationship with her sister, for

:51:23.:51:27.

example, what was that like? sister was four years older, that's

:51:27.:51:36.

her only sibling. She was less academic than Margaret. Mural, who

:51:36.:51:41.

I met was a very strong character, stronger than Margaret. Really?!

:51:41.:51:51.
:51:51.:51:53.

Very formidable. Right!Because Margaret said please, everything

:51:53.:51:57.

can be seen, Muriel showed me letters that Margaret had written

:51:57.:52:02.

her in her youth. Were they close? Yes, at that time. They maintained

:52:02.:52:11.

good res. -- Relations. They reveal the whole of her youth from her

:52:11.:52:15.

school days, through Oxford, early work and her boyfriends. And her

:52:15.:52:19.

marriage and her children. So they're absolutely, and her love of

:52:19.:52:23.

clothes and films and things like that. So, for example, three

:52:23.:52:28.

boyfriends that nobody's ever heard of. To be honest which Mrs Thatcher

:52:28.:52:32.

most of the time denied. Really? But did admit to me. Who were they?

:52:32.:52:37.

One who called Tony Bray. A farmer called Willie Cullen, who she

:52:37.:52:44.

passed over to her sister and who married Muriel. Then there's a Dr

:52:44.:52:48.

Called Robert Henderson. Very little if anything has been said

:52:48.:52:54.

about them. Tony Bray nothing before, nothing whatever. A tiny

:52:54.:52:58.

bit has been said about Willie Cullen and Dr Henderson. What about

:52:58.:53:03.

her mother. This is slightly obscure. I think it wasn't very

:53:03.:53:07.

good. Margaret wanted to grow away from her mother. This is known,

:53:07.:53:11.

what I think is less known is that she very much wanted to grow away

:53:11.:53:15.

from her farther. We know how much she admired her father, and this is

:53:16.:53:20.

true. She had a provincial life and she wanted to get into the big

:53:20.:53:23.

world and quite a lot of letters in the book where the father is

:53:24.:53:26.

clearly upset that he's not seeing enough of Margaret because Margaret

:53:26.:53:31.

is getting on with life. I'm sure one reason that Margaret expressed

:53:32.:53:38.

such loyalty to him when she became famous was that she felt guilty.

:53:38.:53:41.

Any revelations? In the early life there's this whole the young woman,

:53:41.:53:45.

the emotional side and the love. In the political life, I think there's

:53:45.:53:50.

the how did she do it. There's a marvellously interesting memoir she

:53:50.:53:53.

wrote of the Falklands. She hardly kept a record of anything. She kept

:53:54.:53:59.

a private record of the Falklands War which she wrote a year after it

:53:59.:54:02.

happened. Where you see the extraordinary intensity of emotion

:54:02.:54:09.

and the cin yesterdayible risks involved in it all. -- Are you

:54:09.:54:13.

looking forward to it? I am disappointed I didn't bring a copy

:54:13.:54:17.

for Charles to sign while he's here. I will do it for you. It's

:54:17.:54:20.

fantastic in the way you describe. It I haven't read any of it yet,

:54:20.:54:24.

but I think the human being behind the politician is what really

:54:24.:54:28.

interests me because ultimately, I think as politicians we are so

:54:28.:54:32.

caricatured and demonised and presented in a certain way, to be

:54:32.:54:36.

able to step away from that and say who was the person and what rooted

:54:36.:54:41.

her. And who also was the woman. It's interesting and important her

:54:41.:54:44.

sex. It makes it more interesting than the average politician.

:54:45.:54:48.

had a very strong relationship with Denis Thatcher. What will her

:54:48.:54:51.

children think of the book? They've helped me throughout and been very

:54:51.:54:55.

kind. I hope they'll enjoy it. It's always a bit difficult reading

:54:55.:55:01.

about your own mother, but I hope they enjoy it. Just quickly to you,

:55:01.:55:04.

Margaret Thatcher has been criticised for not doing enough to

:55:04.:55:07.

help other women break the glass ceiling, as a Muslim woman, you sit

:55:07.:55:11.

in Cabinet, do you think that is part of your role too, to help

:55:11.:55:15.

other women break through? Long before I came into politics, I used

:55:15.:55:20.

to, I probably shouldn't say this on national TV, I was constantly

:55:20.:55:23.

concerned I would be before a tribunal because I went out of my

:55:23.:55:26.

way to make sure I created opportunities for women. I think

:55:26.:55:29.

people like to promote and support people who are actually in their

:55:29.:55:33.

own frame. That's why you see so many men immediately turning to men

:55:33.:55:36.

when they look for promotion or people to bring into an

:55:36.:55:39.

organisation. Soy think every woman has an obligation and

:55:39.:55:43.

responsibility to say, you know, give somebody a go. Charles Moore,

:55:43.:55:48.

thank you very much. Time before we go to cross to College Green and

:55:48.:55:52.

talk to John Leech, who has tabled a Parliamentary motion about

:55:52.:55:56.

something very important. What are you calling for? A change in the

:55:56.:56:02.

time when the FA Cup final is on, because the FA Cup final this year

:56:02.:56:07.

is going to be at 5.15pm, which will mean a lot of Wigan fans and

:56:07.:56:10.

Manchester City fans are not going to be able to return home on the

:56:10.:56:15.

last train. For the future we want to make sure that the FA Cup gets

:56:15.:56:19.

its prominence back and is as a stand-alone if fixture on a

:56:19.:56:22.

Saturday afternoon ot 3pm so everyone can watch it and the fan

:56:22.:56:27.

kz get home in time after. It can't be changed for this time, it's too

:56:27.:56:30.

late. It's certainly too late for this year. But for the future we

:56:30.:56:33.

can make sure some lessons are learned and that fans in the North

:56:33.:56:37.

West, let's hope that lots of North West clubs are getting to the FA

:56:37.:56:41.

Cup final year after year, we need to make sure they'll be able to get

:56:41.:56:45.

back after the game late at night. At the moment, because the FA Cup

:56:45.:56:48.

final is being held on days when there are other league fixtures,

:56:48.:56:53.

it's being avoided from 3pm, so that as many fans can watch as

:56:53.:56:57.

possible. Of course, there are then implications for the fans trying to

:56:57.:57:02.

return home. Do people care enough these days about the FA Cup for it

:57:02.:57:07.

to be on a special day or to have it to itself? You tell that to the

:57:07.:57:11.

25,000-odd Wigan fans that have never been to an FA Cup final

:57:11.:57:15.

before and you tell that to the 25,000 City fans that will be going

:57:15.:57:18.

to Wembley for the second time for the FA Cup final in the last three

:57:18.:57:23.

years. And who do you support?I'm a season ticket holder at

:57:23.:57:26.

Manchester City. Are you worried people will be distracted bit

:57:26.:57:29.

Premier League, which you haven't won? Well, unfortunately, the best

:57:29.:57:33.

team won it this season. The best team won it last season as well.

:57:33.:57:39.

Hopefully next season it will be a City versus United curtain raiser

:57:39.:57:42.

for the Charity Shield and then City will go on to win the

:57:42.:57:45.

championship next year. Would you like to congratulate Manchester

:57:45.:57:49.

United? Slightly through gritted teeth, but I suppose they have been

:57:49.:57:53.

the best team this season. Well done. You did it. Thank you very

:57:53.:57:56.

much for joining us from College Green. Now there's just time to

:57:56.:58:00.

find out the answer to our quiz. What entertainment if needed is

:58:00.:58:03.

provide for the members of the House of Lords when they have to

:58:03.:58:10.

stay for late-night votes. Film screenings, open mic, comedy nights

:58:10.:58:15.

or Stitch 'n Bitch clubs? From the note I got round it was a movie, I

:58:15.:58:22.

think we had Skyfall on last time. I think we had Julian Fellowes

:58:22.:58:26.

talking about Downton Abbey. Why do you need entertainment? I don't

:58:26.:58:29.

have the time to be entertained. These are late nights, people are

:58:29.:58:33.

there for a long time in the evening. It passes the time for

:58:33.:58:37.

people who are waiting for votes. I have the privilege of a huge red

:58:37.:58:42.

box, soy don't have the opportunity to take part. So you didn't watch

:58:42.:58:47.

the film, you're not watching the film? I couldn't bear watching

:58:47.:58:51.

Skyfall with my colleagues. That's all for today. Thanks to my against,

:58:51.:58:54.

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