Browse content similar to 14/05/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Daily Politics. The prime minister gives the order for a draft bill | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
enabling an in-out referendum on Europe, but it has almost no chance | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
of becoming law, so will it be enough to say to the appetite of the | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
Tory backbenches? They are not happy about the | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
prospect of this either. What trouble will the gay marriage bill | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
run into when it returns to the Commons next week? | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
Strivers and shirkers dash as the political rhetoric hots up, what | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
does Britain really think about welfare benefits? | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
And we will ask why politicians put themselves through this. Over the | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
last few months, I have spent a long time trying to work hard on the | :01:19. | :01:29. | |
:01:29. | :01:30. | ||
National Health Service. All that in the next 60 minutes. And | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
cheers, not jeers, please, because joining me for the whole programme | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
today is former Conservative MP and Times commentator Matthew Parris. | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
When is a draft Bill ordered by the prime minister not a government | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
Bill? When it is a bill enabling and in-out referendum on Europe in the | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
teeth of opposition from your coalition partners. The Conservative | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
leadership expects the bill to be picked by one of their backbench | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
MPs. There should be plenty of willing volunteers. And introduced | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
as a private members bill. Let's get more from our political | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
correspondent. Take us through the process of what is being proposed | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
here by the leadership? Just because the prime minister is the prime | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
minister, it does not mean he can get his way on stuff. So when he | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
gave his big speech about Europe in January, he was not able to say we | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
would renegotiate and have a referendum before the election | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
because those pesky Lib Dems would not let him. He could not promise a | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
bill in government time to guarantee a referendum after an election, even | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
if you take the principle that a bill could guarantee that something | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
happened after an election, because again, the Lib Dems would not allow | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
the government time for it. But when the draft bill that he mentioned in | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
his speech did not turn up in the Queen's Speech, some of his | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
backbenchers were not happy, put down this amendment, and started the | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
process we have seen which began with number ten saying how relaxed | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
they were and appears to have ended with them proposing printing a draft | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
bill this afternoon which they will then have to find a willing | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
backbencher who does well in the ballot to introduce into Parliament, | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
which even then is highly unlikely to become law, because it is very | :03:13. | :03:20. | |
easy to stop. So will it satisfy the back who are going to vote in favour | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
of this amendment, regretting the absence of some sort of European | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
legislation in the Queen's Speech? Depends which backbencher you speak | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
to. Douglas Carswell, a prominent Euro-sceptic, has addressed this | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
issue that people say about the Euro-sceptics, that they are never | :03:38. | :03:45. | |
satisfied. He says he is happy. There is peace between the prime | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
minister and Douglas Carswell. But John Barron, who is behind this | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
amendment, is not. He has urged the prime minister to have the courage | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
to back this amendment. He wants the prime minister to have the courage | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
to back an amendment in effect rubbishing the prime minister's | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
programme for government. It is unlikely that he will do that, not | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
least because he will not be the country. The prime minister is in | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
America at the moment. He has been in the Oval Office with the leader | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
of the free world, to use a disputed term. And what are we doing? Banging | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
on about Europe. He wanted to stop that sort of thing. He did indeed. | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
With us now Chris Heaton-Harris, one of a group of Conservative MPs | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
involved in discussions with other European countries about reforming | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
the EU, and Labour MP Keith Vaz, who wants his party to back a | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
referendum. We also hoped to be joined by a Liberal Democrat, but | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
none of their 57 MPs was available. Matthew Parris, how does this make | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
the Tory party look 's dreadful. thought your correspondent's | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
analysis was flawless, but it will all be completely lost on most | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
voters. And some of us. The voters just see the Tories Rowling about | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
Europe again. I cannot understand why elements within the Conservative | :05:06. | :05:13. | |
Party want to drag it into what can only be damaging to the party's | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
electoral chances. You don't need a political commentator here today, | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
you need a psychiatrist to talk about what is happening to parts of | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
the Conservative Party. That is not exactly a vote of confidence, is it? | :05:26. | :05:33. | |
I obviously disagree. The Parliamentary party is remarkably | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
united over where we have come from and where we are now, with the prime | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
minister's speech at Bloomberg and now a draft Bill. If you can get | :05:42. | :05:49. | |
people across the Conservative Party to agree, the prime minister is a | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
good uniting factor. People will remember that the Conservative Party | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
will give the British people a referendum. And Keith Vaz, it is on | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
that important point where Labour falls down, because Chris is right | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
dash whatever else it does, it does underline a commitment to an in-out | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
referendum, albeit in 2017, which neither Labour nor the Liberal | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
Democrats are promising. I can only speak for myself, not the leader of | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
the Labour Party, although Ed Miliband has made it clear that it | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
is a question of timing. He has not ruled it out forever. I believe we | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
should have a referendum now. I don't think we need to wait. I think | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
the case has been made on one side or the other. The British people | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
need to have a choice, and we need to land this boil. So you are closer | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
to David Cameron than anyone in the Labour leadership? For the reasons | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
that Matthew has outlined, this could drag on for four years. I have | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
been at these summits as Minister for Europe. I know how difficult it | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
is for the prime minister and Minister is to have discussions with | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
continental colleagues. This has been an MEP, he knows how slowly | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
Europe works. It is important to land the boil. We should have this | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
referendum before or at the next general election, and just get on | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
with it. I don't think four years of negotiations will make any | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
difference. The quicker we do it, the better. My job as a humble | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
backbencher is to try and gently persuade Ed Miliband. Have you got | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
any chance of persuading him? have not rung me yet. But I hope | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
that over the next few months, we will have a gentle debate about | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
this. But you are closer to Chris Heaton-Harris and David Cameron on | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
this issue than you are too Ed Miliband. I have always been closer | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
to Chris on this issue. We both believe it is important that the | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
choice should be given to the British people. Let them decide. | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
Whatever the result, if it is a yes, we stay in. If it is a no, we come | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
out. Will you vote for the amendment? I will not vote for the | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
amendment, because it says we should have legislation for a referendum in | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
the future. But that is closer than Ed Miliband. I will not be voting | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
against the amendment, because we should have a discussion about this. | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
At the moment, my position is that we should abstain. Chris | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
Heaton-Harris, if there were a referendum tomorrow, which way would | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
you vote? There will not be one tomorrow, but if there were, I would | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
be campaigning to come out. But I believe we need to have a | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
renegotiation. There are lots of good reasons why we have a Eurozone | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
that is coming together in political union, 17 countries which will be | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
able to outvote the UK at the end of this year. That could have massive | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
implications for our access to the single market. We need legal | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
safeguards to stop that. You don't think the electorate trust David | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
Cameron's word? I do think they will trust him, and even more now with | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
this bill. Because they did not trust him enough beforehand. That is | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
why it is necessary to have this draft will? The county council | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
elections showed that enough people were happy with the prime | :09:13. | :09:20. | |
minister's view on this. And many of them were happy with what UKIP were | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
saying. That is why there are these shenanigans over Europe, because of | :09:24. | :09:31. | |
fear of UKIP. That is not true. The prime minister did not mention the | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
fact that there would be a bill in his speech earlier in the year. | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
did not come out yesterday. I believe this was prepared some time | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
ago, and it was ready to be published. They decided not to have | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
negotiations with the Liberal Democrats, even though it was | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
Liberal Democrat policy just a few years ago to have an in-out | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
referendum. I am thinking of the ordinary voter listening to this | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
conversation. What is a paving bill? Referendum in four years? All the | :10:02. | :10:10. | |
electorate here is blah blah blah, Tories Rowling. -- Rowling. If Keith | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
Vaz's suggest were to be taken up and we had a snap referendum now on | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
in or out, do you think the Tory Euro-sceptics would be satisfied? | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
They would immediately say no, they are trying to bounce us into a | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
referendum. People need to put this to the electorate. It does not need | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
to be a snap referendum and you do not need a long campaign. Michael | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
Gove has already said he would vote no. I would vote yes, because I | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
believe the best way to reform is from within the European Union. | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
would vote to stay with the status quo? Because the best way to reform | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
is from within. How do you think the electorate would vote? I think they | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
would vote yes, because the three party leaders would all be on the | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
same platform. It would be catastrophic if Britain came out of | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
the European Union in a referendum at this moment. Do you agree that it | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
would be catastrophic? If we were to leave the EU? Not at all, otherwise | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
I would not think it would be a good idea. You want renegotiation, so you | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
believe that staying within a reformed EU is a good idea. | :11:17. | :11:24. | |
Absolutely, but as it stands now, we have all sorts of issues on access | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
to the single market and working practices may you could list a whole | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
gambit of things that need to be changed. But David Cameron promised | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
a referendum. Don't you see the damage that you and some of your | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
colleagues are now doing to any impression of unity that the party | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
needs to take into the next election? I see a bunch of pundits | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
talking about something that is not there. There is a whole group of | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
Conservative MPs from left to right that I united. You have an amendment | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
to the Queen's Speech regretting the absence of any legislation. You have | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
calls for a man the tree -- mandatory referendum now, and you | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
have the Tory leadership publishing a draft bill for paving legislation, | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
which many people are not sure what that means. And you have others | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
calling for Britain to leave the EU now because renegotiation is | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
pointless. That is a united party? They are all the nuances of the same | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
thing, which is that we need a better relationship now, or we might | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
have to leave in the future. Is it politically the right place for Ed | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
Miliband to be in, to almost be ruling out a referendum? He said not | :12:31. | :12:41. | |
:12:41. | :12:42. | ||
now. Not in 2017. So in effect, no referendum. Politically, is that | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
wrong? At the end of the day, all the political parties will have to | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
sign up to offering the British electorate a referendum. This issue | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
cannot go on dominating our politics year after year. We have a | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
Conservative government now. This is not the biggest issue in the world, | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
but it is taking up time. The best way to deal with it is to have a | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
referendum. All three major political parties will have to sign | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
up to one, I think. Ed Miliband does not want a referendum on the | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
European Union, but he may be forced to agree to one unless the | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
Conservative Party manages to pull itself to pieces between now and the | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
next general election. Some of you, Douglas, are doing your best to do | :13:25. | :13:35. | |
:13:35. | :13:38. | ||
that. Not Douglas! Let's go to the issue of terror in the party apart. | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
We saw it before over Maastricht. You could argue about the nuances of | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
where everyone is standing, but there is still a risk that the | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
perception in the voting public is, what is going on? We don't | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
understand. It is clearer when we listen to UKIP. It is clear that the | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
only party with chants of delivering a referendum to the UK on their | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
relationship with Europe is the Conservative Party. That is a good | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
message for Conservative MPs to get behind. The fact that we now have a | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
paving Bill adds an extra level of proof, if it were needed, that we | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
can head in this direction. How did you think the media would talk this | :14:23. | :14:33. | |
:14:33. | :14:33. | ||
up? But Matthew, why are we not being allowed to discuss this issue | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
and put it to the British public? I can't understand your objection to a | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
referendum that would allow the issue to be settled one way or the | :14:39. | :14:47. | |
other. The Labour Party offered a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
That offer did not have to be brought to fruition because of what | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
happened in France. There is legislation which says we have to | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
have a referendum if there is major treaty change. I have no objection | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
to a referendum now, except that the let's stay in vote would win it and | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
I would not have been a proper discussion beforehand. I have no | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
objection to David Cameron's proposals for a referendum. I am | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
speaking as a Conservative, thinking it is important that the | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
Conservative Party wins direct election, and Chris, what you are | :15:17. | :15:27. | |
doing is not helping. I disagree. The minister has spelt out in his | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
speech his policies. How much of an impact has UKIP had on what is going | :15:33. | :15:40. | |
on now? It has had a huge impact on the more nervous Conservative MPs. I | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
think they will take the wrong lesson from it. They will think that | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
if they get closer to UKIP, people will like them or, instead of | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
thinking UKIP is winning the argument. UKIP is important, but we | :15:53. | :16:03. | |
:16:03. | :16:07. | ||
have to answer their arguments, not move closer. There was a huge spike | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
in UKIP support, you do, you tackle UKIP by having the conversation on | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
tissues that count, which is immigration, which could easily be | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
in my case windfarms and Europe as well. Europe is a by product of | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
this. I agree with Chris and Matthew. A bit of consensus at the | :16:26. | :16:33. | |
end? In the East Midlands they said kill Roy sill ing was going to | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
change the course of British politics and it didn't happen. | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
you for joining u we will talk end Leslie about Europe for the next few | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
days. So, the coalition whips have had their work cut out to keep their | :16:45. | :16:52. | |
troops in line, but just how rebellious are the MPs? Phil Cowley | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
has been tallying the transgressions for his new book. The last session | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
of Parliament saw rebellions in 61 Parliamentary votes. That is a | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
rebellion in more nan quarter of all the votes taken. But it is not the | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
most rebellious on record. That prize goes to yes, Mr Cameron's | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
first session as Prime Minister, when there was a rebellion in 44% of | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
votes. The high levels for any post-war Prime Minister. | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
So far, 185 of the Government's MPs have rebelled since the general | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
election, and Professor coulis is here in the studio. Welcome to the | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
programme. You could say things are looking up for David Cameron this | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
year? They are looking up, if you just take the numbers, and I would | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
never advice anyone just to take the number, one of the reasons there has | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
been a drop from the last session there was a huge House of Lords | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
shaped hole in the legislative programme. Had the Government | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
managed to get that bill programmed and take it through, there would | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
have been dozens more and we would be talking about the same level of | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
rebellion; even the drop you have seen is to a level that is still | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
high for a post-war Government. comparing it to previous | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
administration, how rebellious are the Government's MPs? One of the | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
most rebellious sessions in the pre-war era, for example, I can find | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
only one Conservative session which is Edward Heath's session, which saw | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
a higher level of rebellion. You are talking one of the most rebellious | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
session, that is true if you split it down into Conservatives and | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
Liberal Democrats. One would automatically assume it is because | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
they are in a coalition? Normally one of the deals with coalition | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
Government is if we do a deal to govern together, we have to deliver | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
MPs to support the programme, because otherwise there is no point | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
in being in the coalition. So one of the norms of coalition Government is | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
that where you have coalitions you normally have low levels of dissent, | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
we seem to be doing things differently. It has bucked the | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
trend. Are you surprised? I wonder whether this spike if it is a spike, | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
in rebellions, is part of a long-term trend since the Second | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
World War or just a feature of the Government? This is a trend that has | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
begun for the last 20 or 30 year, MPs are much more independent | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
minded, the period where they were really plieant to whips is the | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
immediate post-war period. The '40s and 50, you begin in the late 60s | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
and 70s to see MPs becoming more rebellious. The 2001 Parliament is | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
the record breaking and this is on course, despite the drop to be the | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
most rebellious in the post-war era, it is a long-term trend. The whips | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
need another war in other words! 1997, presumably, I mean you would | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
assume where there was a landslide people might feel freer to rebel, | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
but that is not necessarily the case, the discipline was obviously | :19:46. | :19:53. | |
there in 1997. There is a big difference between 97 and 2010. In | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
997 when Labour come in after that long period in opposition, there is | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
rock solid opposition and I interviewed a lot of Labour MP, they | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
would say things they were unhappy about, the line is we don't want to | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
go into opposition, we will keep quiet. That broke down after 2001 | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
and they started to kick and kick heavily. You don't have anything | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
like the same self discipline at the moment on the Conservative or | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
Liberal Democrat benches. Presumably for administrations with small | :20:21. | :20:28. | |
majority, there is the emtakes to rebel because you can have a big | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
impact on legislation It depends where it comes in the cycle. Matthew | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
rebelled very early on in his career, and look where it got him! | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
But, you know, if you look at what happened to John Major after 1992, | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
if there a period where MPs get used to breling they can't change | :20:47. | :20:53. | |
behaviour. There are two reasons why a backbencher may rebel or two | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
different justifications amay give themselves, one is the Government | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
has a huge majority and so it doesn't matter, I can express my | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
view and nobody will be hurt, but the other of course, is that when | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
the Government has a small majority, well, I could make a difference, | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
but, if the Government has a small majority, the whips can say do you | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
it does matter, you are going to cause a lot of trouble, so the | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
pressure increases This is a government with a big majority. | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
sort of things are they defying the whips over? It depend which party. | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
There is a difference between Conservative and Liberal Democrat | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
rebellion, half of Liberal Democrat rebellions are on social policy, | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
about 40% from memory of Conservative rebellions are on | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
constitutional policy and a chunk, one in five are on Europe. The | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
problem for the Europe ones is Europe ones are double the size of | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
the others. Although interestingly, of course, if you don't bother whips | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
MPs as there is going to be a free vote, ministers will be be allowed | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
to abstain in the amendment to the Queen speeches, it is not a | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
rebellion The only reason they are doing that is because they know the | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
rebellion would be huge, you have to go back to 1946, to find an example | :22:03. | :22:12. | |
of Government MPs moving an amendment to their own Queen's | :22:12. | :22:13. | |
Speech and being willing to rebel in number this is unprecedented stuff. | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
I can't find any examples of a gove say saying do what you want on the | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
Queen's Speech. Is this a good thing they are a rebellious lot? It can go | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
too far when team work breaks down and it may be about do that now, but | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
on the whole, I think Members of Parliament are voicing their own | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
opinions, it is a good thing, but within limits. I was looking from | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
the sort of political science point of view, you must have difficulty in | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
how to categorize rebellions that don't happen, because the rebellion | :22:46. | :22:53. | |
was going to be so big... Or pulled the legislation or conceded huge | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
ground, that is the big problem, nobody should look at the figures | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
and say they indication influence, there can be considerable influence | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
with no rebellions and that is because the Government is giving | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
way. Now, there will be no rebellion on gay marriage when it returns to | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
the Commons next week, because as we have been discussing the Government | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
have promised a free vote on the issue. That doesn't Mina | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
Conservative backbench dissent won't cause David Cameron trouble on a | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
policy he has chosen to champion and opposition will come from other | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
quarters too, when the gay marriage bill reaches the Lords. Here is the | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
former Archbishop of Canterbury speaking in the upper House last | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
week Of particular concern to many is the bewilderment caused bier a | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
law concerning same-sex marriage, which would change the face of | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
society and family with no mandate, or even a proper debate. | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
Of particular concern at this point in the bill's passage, is for the | :23:48. | :23:55. | |
first time, the way in which the proposals effectively | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
institutionalise competing views of marriage in our society. Rather than | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
promote promoting social cohesion this will lead to greater social | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
fragmentation, far from ending the so-called battle of a marriage, | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
these proposals will formalise it, and exacerbate it. | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
And the Conservative MP David were rows, the aide to the Environment | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
Secretary Owen Paterson is here now. You are calling for a referendum on | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
this issue, what is your justification for that? It is | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
because we, there is not a clear mandate for change, ordinary lit | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
would come within a main party manifesto and it wasn't in my of the | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
main part ties manifesto, it is the significance of the change. It isn't | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
just a tidying up of marriage law, it is a significant change that need | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
to be dealt with carefully, proper scrutiny and if it needs to happen, | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
it needs to happen building a consensus, the position of a | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
Conservative Party which is divided is reflected in the country. | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
Referendums normally are reserved for major constitutional change, not | :25:02. | :25:08. | |
social change, do you accept that has but it has constitutional | :25:08. | :25:14. | |
implications as well. Mr Burrows says he wants a consensus, but I | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
don't think a consensus would be possible. I very much doubt whether | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
anything would persuade you to be in favour of gay marriage. I know | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
nothing would persuade me to be against it. You have to have a vote | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
in end. I wouldn't fear a referendum, because I no doubt at | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
all that gay marriage would pass a popular referendum. Absolutely no | :25:33. | :25:40. | |
doubt at all. But I wonder about this principle that you have a | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
friend when something wasn't in the manifesto, we are going to bring in | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
charges for immigrants health charges until they start earning, | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
that wasn't in the manifesto, do you want a referendum on that You have | :25:52. | :25:59. | |
to accept the issue of gay marriage has been in the nation you must | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
allow, obviously a referendum is hot just about the voter, it is about | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
the national debate. It is good enough for the US, it should be good | :26:07. | :26:16. | |
enough for us. We have had a debate in the media but not one that allows | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
considered discussion of what is a vital institution, that reflects | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
concerns of church, state and all individuals of all faiths, surely we | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
should allow time to have that debate and put it... You don't want | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
a debate, you want to defeat the measure So it is a vehicle you want | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
to use it as a vehicle, to defeat a measure you don't like? It would be, | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
it would be affect the commencement of this bill, but I am concerned | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
about that as well as trying to ensure we have freedom of speech, | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
properly protect and surely the Government should be able to accept | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
that. It has been controversial, what is your evidence for saying | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
that it is so controversial in the nation, that it deserves a | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
referendum? It is controversial for certain parts of the population but | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
MPs voted in favour by a huge majority, didn't they, of 225 and a | :27:05. | :27:12. | |
poll by ICM but public support at 62% compared to 31% against. I | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
suggest Matthew is right. If you had a referendum it would pass the test | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
We would have to have a proper debate. It depends, with opinion | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
polls, if you say that civil partnerships give effective legal | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
rights, then do you want to support gay marriage, it goes up to 70% of | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
people who are against. Just ask people are you in favour of gay | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
marriage or not? That is one where you get a clear majority. People | :27:42. | :27:48. | |
over 50 or 60 tend to be against it. People under it tend to ask what the | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
fuss is about I am under 50 myself. And you look it. The case we found | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
in the bill, the lack of the voice of of the reputation, has been | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
profound in the scrutiny. That is of concern we will make a change | :28:03. | :28:11. | |
without hearing properly from them. From who? BME.Who are BME From | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
black majority church, from Hindu, Sikh, we didn't hear any evidence | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
from them, in the public evidence session, that is a real concern, | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
they are concerned. It crosses the divides, ethnic divides. Black | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
andation people have every right to express their opinion in many ways | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
to do it, but I don't think that you stop a measure, just because one | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
section of the community is predominantly against it We don't go | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
ahead without properly considering with care, communities, interests, | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
the word said by Lord Carey were ones that said scrutiny has been | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
pushed there consultation, it would move the goal posts from trying to | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
separate civil and religious marriages to these proposals. It's a | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
big change. We should have a brother debate about that, and allow it to | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
come to a public vote. This Government isn't proposing any | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
church will be forced to conduct same-sex marriage, there will be | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
protections put in place, so is there any evidence people's | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
religious freedoms will be compromised? We have to recognise | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
the issue of marriage is not just about the marriage ceremony. We are | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
not just talking about that here. The issue of marriage is how people | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
express it, how they have it as basis as charities doing marriage | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
preparation, hiring a haul from a Local Authority, teaching about it | :29:30. | :29:38. | |
in school, expressing the views of employer, we have found examples of | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
that, and I want to ensure on the face of it we are protecting not | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
just the church ceremonies but for people's views. I am in favour of | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
that and the bill will give protection to church ceremony, as | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
for freedom to express opinion, in a sense that is a different issue, but | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
I don't think, I don't think those people who are e unhappy ant gay | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
marriage have been in any sense gagged during this debate. We seem | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
to have heard endlessly from you all The hostility, the threats and you | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
will know yourself, this generates. Hostility to you? And the rest of it | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
and even for myself proposing we should have amendment enshrining | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
freedom of speech, the hostility on social media to myself, even for | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
suggesting that. We should allow protection for people allow | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
allowing... You should have broad shoulders, you are a member of | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
Parliament and members who have spoken out in favour of gay marriage | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
have had to put up with hostility too. People feel strongly about it | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
He got demoted from his job and he has to rely on the Equality Act. | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
Allow people the extra probing e-- protection, they won't be | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
discriminated against. How much dissent do you think there will be | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
when this comes back to the Commons? There will be I would say at least | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
the same dissent in the same majority who are against, there will | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
be people who have abstained who want to see additional protections | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
that go I don't know whatted happens in the church premise, to issues of | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
freedom of speech. People want to see extra assurance, the government | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
through the 13 it issings of the bill didn't make any amendments in | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
that regard. They spoke warmly and positively but nothing on the face | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
of the bill. There is one question again about UKIP and its uninfluence | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
in the last set of election, the local elections and also many grass | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
roots Tories have expressed concern about this. Is that something that | :31:32. | :31:41. | |
perhaps the leadership should be listening to? It could listen, but | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
in the end it has to reject that view. Good old UKIP. They are in | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
favour of a room where people can smoke in pubs, but not a room where | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
people can have gay marriage. Their view of individual liberty is | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
extremely selective. This will pass the Lords easily. It will pass into | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
law easily, and in five or ten years time, you will feel a bit rueful | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
that you got yourself on the wrong side of a social change. I think I | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
am on the right side of the argument in favour of marriage. But do you | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
think in a few years time, in society, it will be regarded in the | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
same way as civil partnerships, just something that happens? We have come | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
to recognise and respect civil partnerships. Would you have voted | :32:27. | :32:37. | |
for them? The position is that we will look back and see whether this | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
has strengthened marriage. I am in favour of marriage as well, but I | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
want a broader... Surely there is more we should be concentrating on | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
which is in our Queen's Speech, rather than getting distracted by | :32:48. | :32:56. | |
this. What is your reaction to David Cameron's proposal for this draft | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
bill on Europe? It is excellent news. It makes it crystal clear | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
whether Palin it is coming from -- where the prime minister is coming | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
from in ensuring that we will have a referendum. And how will you vote on | :33:12. | :33:19. | |
the amendment? I will be supporting Thank you very much. Now, strivers | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
and shirkers. Hard-working families and benefit cheats. The rhetorical | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
temperature on welfare has risen in recent years, and a report out today | :33:28. | :33:35. | |
from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation suggests that our attitudes have | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
been hardening, too. In 1994, 15% of the public thought people lived in | :33:37. | :33:43. | |
need because of laziness or lack of willpower. In 2010, that figure has | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
risen to 23%. And the report says the explanation for the change in | :33:47. | :33:54. | |
attitudes seems to lie amongst Labour supporters. In 1987, 20 1% of | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
Labour supporters said welfare recipients were undeserving, | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
compared with 31% in 2011, an increase of 10%. And there was an | :34:02. | :34:08. | |
increase from 16% to 46% over the same period in the number of Labour | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
voters saying that the welfare state encourages dependency. We are joined | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
now by Julia Unwin, chief executive of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation | :34:17. | :34:24. | |
and the Shadow implement minister, Stephen Timms. Julia Unwin, we have | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
had economic uncertainty before, so why have attitudes hardened so much | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
during this recession? What has changed? It is striking that in | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
previous recessions, people have expressed more sympathy. They have | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
no more people who have lost their jobs. It has come closer to them. In | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
this recession, in part because of the rhetoric you were describing, | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
but also because people have lost confidence in the welfare system to | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
support them, they express this hostility. But they express | :34:52. | :35:01. | |
hostility to the welfare system. But not to the recipients? Much less to | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
the recipients. People said there was a real problem with child | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
poverty. They have little confidence in any government of any colour to | :35:08. | :35:15. | |
fix it. So in response, what does Labour have to do? Does it need to | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
influence the debate to make people more sympathetic to benefit payments | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
and recipients, or does Labour need to adjust its policy to look | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
tougher? I don't think it is about sympathy or looking tough, it is | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
about making the right moves so that people don't live in poverty. The | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
welfare system is only one part of that. Unless we have jobs paying the | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
right sort of money, people will remain poor and the cost to us as a | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
country of that are astronomic. We cannot afford to have another | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
generation growing up in poverty. We believe any incoming government | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
needs to address housing, jobs, skills, education, as well as | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
ensuring that you have a reliable welfare system for those who can't | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
work. What is your view towards the universal credit, this complete | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
overhaul of the system that the government claims will make it more | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
targeted to people who need it and will ensure that there are not, to | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
use the rhetoric, people shirking and picking benefits they don't | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
deserve? We support the notion of universal credit. The idea of some | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
providing benefits must be the right thing to do. The idea that you bring | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
it all together in one place is an important step forward. We worry | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
about the way it is being implemented and all the other things | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
being done at the same time. And we particularly worry about all of this | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
happening in a falling, insecure and dangerous labour market in which | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
jobs are temporary, poorly paid and offer no progression. Stephen Timms, | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
do you think more people are living on benefit as a result of laziness | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
or lack of willpower? I am not sure the numbers are any greater than | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
they ever have been. There are two macro problems here which are | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
undermining confidence in the system. One is that the system is | :37:01. | :37:09. | |
supposed to encourage people into work and help them into jobs. The | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
other is that people who pay into the system although working lives | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
and then need help too often find there is not help when they require | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
it. What sort of people are those? I am thinking of people perhaps in | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
their 50s who have worked their whole adult lives, running into a | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
health problem and having to give up work as a result, and then they find | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
out there is only one year's worth of funding available to them, and | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
the amount is far lower than they thought it would be. That is | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
weakening confidence in the system. But do you accept that you as | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
politicians have played into the portrayal and the rhetoric that has | :37:45. | :37:55. | |
been used to talk about the welfare debate that has not helped? Labour | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
policies have promoted individual responsibility. But I am talking | :37:58. | :38:08. | |
:38:08. | :38:08. | ||
about the rhetoric used by politicians. Well, you are right. We | :38:08. | :38:09. | |
have promoted individual responsibility over the last 20 | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
years. Julia is making the point that that is reflected in the way | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
Labour views have changed. Why is there a perception that Labour is | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
soft on welfare? I don't think that is a fair perception. But it is what | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
the polling shows, that Labour is not seen as being tough enough in | :38:25. | :38:32. | |
terms of welfare and the people who receive it. In government, we | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
actually made the system much better, but there is more to be | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
done. That is why we have our jobs guarantee policy at the moment, | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
where we say everybody is entitled to the offer of a job, but once | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
offered, they will be required to take it up. Do you think the | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
government has succeeded in changing the debate on welfare and have | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
managed to champion the idea that it will be tougher in future to get | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
welfare? I think it is the other way round. All parties have noticed a | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
hardening in public attitudes. they have responded to it? They have | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
responded. And we should consider the possibility that the public are | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
right, that there has been growing abuse of the benefit system. When | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
the more stringent tests for what used to be called is a bloody | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
benefit were brought in recently, there was a huge drop in people | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
claiming it. But there are also many people claiming that there will be | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
awful in justice is done to people who will genuinely need it in their | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
lives and may not be able to get it. Around the margins of any system, | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
there will always be injustices. But there is a public perception that | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
the bar should be raised a bit, and I think the public may be right. I | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
can see that the Conservative Party has understood that and I believe | :39:43. | :39:51. | |
the Labour Party has, too. What about the misconception by many | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
people about where the bulk of money on benefit is actually spent? Half | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
of it is on pensions. And then at least another quarter is on people | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
who are in work. That is the point I want to make. The vast majority goes | :40:02. | :40:09. | |
on pensions. And most people think that is appropriate. Indeed, most | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
people are shocked by how little money is received on pensions. They | :40:12. | :40:18. | |
are also shocked by how many families receiving benefits where | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
someone is in poverty, somebody is going to work. We are right that we | :40:23. | :40:32. | |
a system that is not working. We can't walk away from provision for | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
people who are not in work. Are you saying the parties are doing that? | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
am not saying that, but we need a system in which people have | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
confidence. The previous system did not do that. We are now going for | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
what I have described as a gamble with universal credit. We have to | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
hope it works, because the price paid by people who fall through the | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
gaps will be very high. How else do you bring the welfare bill down? | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
have to create jobs which pay enough to enable people to work without | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
using benefits. But do you think the tax credit system championed by | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
Gordon Brown as chancellor and prime minister actually created dependency | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
in itself, that it was not enough to get a job that paid you a living | :41:18. | :41:24. | |
wage, you had to rely on handouts from the state in order to survive? | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
The handouts came because people were not getting a living wage. They | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
were working for very low wages, paying high rents, and the | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
completion of those two put our benefits bill up to a level that is | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
unacceptable. So in the end, it was a false economy having such an | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
intricate and edit system. At one of the results was a big increase in | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
the number of lone parents working, which is a big game for the economy | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
and society. We need the system to help people into work. You are right | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
about pensions. I shall be approaching the time I get a pension | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
at the next general election, but I don't think any party should repeat | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
the pledge the Conservative Party made not to touch pensions. Do you | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
agree with that? I think we will have to look at all these things, | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
given continuing austerity beyond the next election. But Labour have | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
not said that yet, so do you think Labour should look again at | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
universal benefits to pensioners? will have to look at a range of | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
things, and that is one of them. the weekend, Peter Mandelson said | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
the Labour government in 2004 were sending out such parties for people | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
to come to work in this country. Then yesterday, he said, we have to | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
realise that the entry of migrants to the labour market is hard for | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
people entering the labour market to get jobs or keep jobs. Does | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
Labour's immigration policy have something to answer for? He was in | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
the government at the time. He says it did create that sort of | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
dependency. We are numbers of the European Union. Sending out such | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
parties for people to come to work? I certainly did not send out any | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
search parties. There are big challenges. I agree with Julia that | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
we need to find ways of raising the levels of income in work to tackle | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
the problem of in work poverty. is 30 years since your experience | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
when you were unable to live successfully on benefits. When was | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
that? That was the television in 1981. I tried living on �26 74 week | :43:30. | :43:38. | |
near Newcastle. And you did not manage it. I didn't. But I decided | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
to go with the flow. But you think the government has got the right | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
level now, both in terms of pitching it to the public, whose attitudes | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
are hardening? There is no right level for benefits. It will always | :43:52. | :43:58. | |
be hard to live on benefits. What I hate about unemployment is the way | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
it breaks people's spirits. People need to feel they have a purpose. It | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
does not matter what level of benefits they are getting. And they | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
need employment of the right sort. Currently, our labour market | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
provides jobs with zero hours contracts, no security. That is no | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
way to build a life. Thank you very much. Now, it is more | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
than five years since the start of the global financial crisis, and we | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
have all spent a lot of that time try to work out who to blame. Was it | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
the bankers, the economists or the politicians who led Britain into the | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
longest slump in living memory? A new series on BBC Two called Bankers | :44:35. | :44:42. | |
has been looking at what went wrong. Rules and regulations were designed | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
to enable the City to grow, and both Conservative and new Labour | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
government is appreciated the value and tax revenue that the bankers | :44:48. | :44:55. | |
brought in. The financial sector was growing at an average of 6% a year, | :44:56. | :45:04. | |
twice as fast as the wider economy. Lunch? Can't even spell it, but it | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
virtually went out of the window. There was so much money to be made, | :45:08. | :45:15. | |
so much of an opportunity. There is probably a disturbing, sometimes | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
admirable aspect of human nature that we just enjoy a party. | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
You can watch the next episode tomorrow on BBC 2000 at 9.00. One | :45:26. | :45:34. | |
man has has been thinking hard about who went wrong is the former Labour | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
MP who has written a book called Progressive Capitalism. Welcome back | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
welcome to the programme. Your book is highly critical of the financial | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
system and there have been other critic, you say the markets became | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
too focussed on take wealth, why did no-one, including the. Go of which | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
you were a member notice? Think they is a very fundamental question, and | :45:54. | :46:01. | |
the answer is we were all sold on this idea of the liberal market | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
economics that this was the answer, it seemed to get us out of real | :46:06. | :46:13. | |
problems in the '60s and 70s, when we were faced with stagflation, and | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
everything seemed to be toing very well, in the years I was -- to be | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
going very well. In my own case it was only when I came out of | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
Government that was once again allowed to talk to people in the | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
financial world, and I sat down with financial advisers and they said | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
there is real problems occurring now. But in Government did you not | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
talk to people in the financial world who are saying, this cannot go | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
on? I don't think they were saying that, they were saying this is | :46:41. | :46:48. | |
great, we are doing very well, I didn't, because all my investments | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
were blind trust, and any idea I might meet with a financial person | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
was out of the question. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it. | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
Certainly no-one, or no-one that I can recall, who was saying at the | :47:00. | :47:06. | |
time in any of the party, let's stop the party rolling, the credit boom | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
is going to go on and all, what we need now is lots more regulation, to | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
make sure the bankers are going to be behave themselves, no-one was | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
calling for that were they? We were all sold on this idea, and we | :47:18. | :47:24. | |
thought that was right, in the same way in the 30 years before that, we | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
all thought Keynesian economics and planning was a good thing. | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
intervention is what should be happening, in terms of financial | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
regulation and trying to take a more interventionist view? You put the | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
word intervention because you want to make it sound sinister and awful. | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
No! What I am talking about is we had three major, three or four major | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
institutional failures which caused a monetary boom, to really collapse. | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
We need to put those things right. Your idea of Progressive Capitalism | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
seems to be very much the way Ed Miliband is thinking, yet you are | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
very critical of him? You say... is different. What I am saying is | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
you need to define what is the role of the state in the economy. We have | :48:10. | :48:17. | |
defined that, over the last 30 years, as there would be no role. | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
Governments should stay out of it. We saw some really major | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
institutional failure, and government has to create it will | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
right conditions, in terms of corporate governance, the balance | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
sheet of banks and others. Isn't that what Ed Miliband has been | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
talking about? He has talked about ending the fast buck culture, about | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
having a role for the state, in terms of looking or regulating the | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
economy. Banks are subject to a raft of new rules. David Cameron has | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
talked about socially responsible capitalism. Do you not think the | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
problem is being addressed and dealt with? No. These are fine words, but | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
you need to translate them, into clear policy, for example, the | :49:00. | :49:06. | |
question of what the balance sheet of banks should be like. We are | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
debating 3-# % equity, that is absurd. It should be something close | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
to 20%. All we will see... Then they will stop lending all together. | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
have to phase this in because of that, the idea we have solved any of | :49:21. | :49:27. | |
the problems of derivatives of bank balance sheets is farcical. You are | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
a member of the Labour Party. Who in the Labour Party is there to carry | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
this torch, if it is not going to be Ed Miliband? I think there are a lot | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
of bright people there and you can even hope than Ed Miliband will be | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
the one of the people who carries this torch. I think the problem has | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
been with both political party, there hasn't been an all terntive | :49:49. | :49:55. | |
political economy. -- parties. We have begun to realise the nigh owe | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
liberal one is wrong but no-one is putting forward and alteshtive, | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
which is why I have writ then book. Ed Miliband isn't doing that either? | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
I don't think any of the political leaders are. I don't think they | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
understand that we have got to move away from what was the kind of | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
received opinion over 30 years, and move to something new. What do you | :50:15. | :50:23. | |
think of him? I said that I, on the time, I thought he was average. What | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
I said was... Pretty damningI said all three political leaders are | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
Avram, if there is anyone out there in your world, who would like to | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
argue that David Cameron Nick Clegg or Ed Miliband are more than | :50:38. | :50:46. | |
average, in the same category as Margaret Thatcher or Tony Blair... | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
Speaking from my newspaper if you tell a newspaper that three people | :50:49. | :50:55. | |
are average, we are entitled to assume you do think Ed Miliband is | :50:55. | :51:01. | |
average. I do. Equally think that average is in this context is used | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
to describe all three political leaders, and that none of them are | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
of the calibre of Tony Blair or Margaret Thatcher, in leadership. Do | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
you agree with that? You have stopped giving financial support to | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
the Labour Party? That is a rather different eschew which has to do | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
with the fact I now have two job, one in the institute of Government | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
and Chancellor of came bridge, and I like to keep them out of the thick | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
and thrust and parry of party political situation. In your book | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
you say you part funded Labour bah because you didn't want it to be | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
solely funded by the trade union, since Ed Miliband has come to power, | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
leading the Labour Party, 80% of the party's money does come from Labour. | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
It sounds like they need you What I also said was I don't like the | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
situation, where 80% of the money for the Conservative Party is coming | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
from financial people, and I think the British public would support | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
what was put forward, as a very sensible thing, on professional, | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
standards in public life, which is we should have state funding of | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
party, so party leaders are not dependent on particular groups of | :52:08. | :52:14. | |
people. And what about the average comment? Do you agree with David | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
that the three current leaders are average compared to Margaret | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
Thatcher and Tony Blair? I think different times call for different | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
types of leadership. At the moment I don't think a Margaret Thatcher | :52:26. | :52:32. | |
would be the right person. I like David Cameron's conciliate tristyle. | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
Like the way he thinks before he acts, I want to believe that there | :52:36. | :52:42. | |
are limits, to how far he will go, and I am still clinging on to that | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
belief, but it has been a difficult few days. You would think it was a | :52:47. | :52:54. | |
good sign to have a situation where ministers are allowed to abstain on | :52:54. | :53:00. | |
the Queen's Speech? It is not satisfactory It cannot be. I agree. | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
Do you feel like being booed today? What a bizarre question! You could | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
do worse than to head down to bourment with the Police | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
Federation's annual conference is kicking off. Theresa May and Jack | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
Straw have been on the receiving end of police heckles in the past but it | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
is not the only bear pit for politician, being booed by hundreds | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
wouldn't be most people's idea of fun so why do they put themselves | :53:24. | :53:32. | |
through it? Fist, do you remember these cringeworthy scenes? | :53:32. | :53:38. | |
Over the last few months I have spent working hard on the National | :53:38. | :53:46. | |
Health Service. Yes, well, you don't remember it, I do, because I spent | :53:46. | :53:56. | |
:53:56. | :54:18. | ||
18 years in opposition fighting it. nursing director, and of trust | :54:18. | :54:28. | |
:54:28. | :54:43. | ||
boards is to listen to you when you Why do they put themselves through | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
it? Lucy Beresford is here, and of course Matthew Parris is still with | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
us. Why do they do it to themselves? They are partly playing a game and | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
they want to be seen to be humble, reaching out in the current phrase, | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
to people who they know, don't share their belief, but politicians are | :55:03. | :55:10. | |
nothing, if not narcissistic and there is this huge addiction to | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
almost a zeal to try and convert people who, it is one thing to | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
preach to a party conference where you hope at least one or two people | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
will share your views but if you go somewhere where you know they don't | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
approve of you, what could be more glorifying than to walk off that | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
stage to triumphant cheers. Is that the truth? The thrill of trying to | :55:32. | :55:39. | |
get people to come to your point of view? There is an element I I think | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
desire for publicity of showing off, everybody who goes into politics, I | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
was not exempt from that. There is one thing worse than a whole lot of | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
people booing you and that would be an empty hall, people who were not | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
interested in you. I think they like the attention, they prefer it to be | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
favourable, if it is unfavourable, that is better than no attention at | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
all. Ministers are grown up, you don't go into politics if you are a | :56:04. | :56:11. | |
fading flower. Do they feel bad? Psychologically do they feel bad? | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
all want positive affirmation, you would want to receive claps and | :56:14. | :56:20. | |
cheer, but as Matthew said, in a way, to not be talked about, | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
ignored, would make your ego shrivel and these are people who are | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
performer, this the what they want. They want the audience and whether | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
it is the audience in the hall, or the audience subsequently on the | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
news bulletin, it is all the oxygen that fuels their life as a | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
politician. And I think too, if you are a minister, it is a feather in | :56:40. | :56:45. | |
your cap, and it is a sign you are doing something right, if these | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
ghastly professional organisations and trade unions begin to boo you, | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
it is standing up to vested interests like that I think is the | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
mark of a good minister, I think you can console yourself you are doing | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
something right. Thing on thing you can console yourself is the group | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
dynamic, to say, it is one thing to be heckled by a very very brave | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
person, who comes up to you in the street, and really has a go, but if | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
you are standing in a hall, and one or two people start the slow hand | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
clap or booing, then you could probably count that as just group | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
dynamics of a sort of vaguely hysterical kind, if they were on | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
their own, if they met you in a lift they won't be so brave. What is the | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
best way to deal with it? You are trying to say your piece, you are | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
trying to appeal to whoever it is, nurses, police officers, and people | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
just don't want to hear it or think they you are being unfair, what is | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
the best way of dealing with it? have to desigh what proportion of | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
the hall is on your side. If most are on your side and and there is a | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
small group, you can by a clever response to a heck, win people your | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
way, but once you have sensed the mood of the meeting is against you, | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
the best thing to do is to take no notice and plough on, as though it | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
wasn't happening. Is that right? don't know, you have to acknowledge | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
it, you have to respect that to show them you are listening, and that is | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
what politicians are meant to do, but you must never get angry you | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
must never show you are riled. The problem with one that happened with | :58:17. | :58:26. | |
Tony Blair, was he so- didn't expect it He did not see that coming. It | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
was that level of complacency that did for him. A bit quickly, is Lucy | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
the lady, the psychotherapist to come and help the tomorrow over | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
Europe? I wish you would tell me what has gone wrong. They are | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
tearing themselves apart. That is another conversation you can have in | :58:39. | :58:45. | |
the privacy outside the studio. Thanks to our guest guests, the one | :58:45. | :58:49. |