21/06/2013 Daily Politics


21/06/2013

Andrew Neil with the latest political stories looking at the effects of immigration to the UK, school leavers' skills, and the closure of the Government's UFO desk.


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Politics. Is economic growth being backed by a workforce without the

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skills needed, including basic numerous sea and literacy? That is

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what British businesses. What has gone wrong? It is Ed Miliband 's big

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idea but I bet you were wondering what pre-distribution actually

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means. You have come to the right place! Let the wonkathon begin!

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London is the place for me... It is 65 years since HMS Windrush arrived

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with the first wave of West Indian immigrants. We will debate where

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multiculturalism went right and wrong. And do you believe in strange

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little men from other than its? -- other planets? We have one live in

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the studio! Lembit Opik will be here to talk about UFOs.

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All that in the next hour. Who better to discuss it all than the

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Captain Kirk and Mr Spock of Westminster punditry. You can decide

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which is which! I am talking about the Daily Mail 's Andrew Pierce and

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Carla Buzasi from the Huffington Post. You got that right!Let's

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start with the scandal over the cover-up of the deaths of 16 babies

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and two mothers at Furness General Hospital 's maternity unit in

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Cumbria. This morning the Health Secretary said he had little

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confidence in the work of the care quality commission, the CQC, the

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body that is supposed to regulate the health service and make sure

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they do their job. He thought it needed to undergo big changes.

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have these awful deaths in that hospital in Morecambe Bay is awful

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enough, but then the very body whose job it is to speak up for the

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public, speak up for patients, to be involved in covering it up, is

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totally unacceptable. I think we do have to pause for a moment and

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recognise that if we didn't have this new management at the CQC,

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coming in with a new broom, we wouldn't have this independent

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report, we wouldn't have the names in the public arena. There is a huge

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job to do to restore public confidence. He didn't mince his

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words. You wonder if the Secretary of State would take such a line like

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that, maybe he should just abolish the whole thing and start again? We

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are in a difficult position. Lives have been lost, babies lives, the

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general public is understandably upset. You need a statement like

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that, you need to feel someone is going to do something about it. You

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would end up with another body, may be the same people doing the same

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thing. They need to fix this and move on and ensure that if tragedies

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like this occur, people will be held to account. Things can go wrong in

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hospitals, we all understand that, but two things seem to have happened

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here. A lot went wrong at this hospital, too often. And the people

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that we, the taxpayers, paid to monitor these things, to step in,

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make sure it doesn't happen again, they did not do their job and they

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covered up the fact they hadn't done their job. They gave this hospital a

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clean goal of health. extraordinary thing is the cover-up.

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This week the banking commission recommended a new criminal charge

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for bankers who are guilty of reckless conduct. We can all think

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of a feud bankers who perhaps should have been charged with that. Isn't

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it time that this approach was brought into the NHS, which is a

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life or death industry? Years now, terrible things have been going

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wrong, we saw it in Stafford, where 1200 people died needlessly. Sir

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David Nicholson is now the Chief Executive of the NHS, you has not

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been held to account. I think Jeremy Hunt should go further and get the

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law officers to look at what sort of criminal sanction can be introduced

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into the NHS. A lot of people see this as another example of the

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divide between the governing elite and ordinary people, this is a

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country where we have bankers who can money-laundering the Mexican

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cartels drugs money, create a financial crash that leaves millions

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unemployed, we have health service bureaucrats who don't do their job

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even when lives are at stake and nobody goes to jail. There is also

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an issue here, there is a salary thing, the bankers want to line

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their pockets and everyday people 's savings are not worth worrying

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about. By the standards of everybody else, these Chief Executive 's are

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earning a lot. And she has a pension of 1.35 million, gold-plated public

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sector pension which you couldn't get in the private sector. Do you

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think this undermines the British love affair with the NHS? I don't

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think so. That is a broad brush stroke, this is one hospital, they

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have been other hospitals where they have been horrific incidents.

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have been told at mid Staffordshire was not untypical. We have been told

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the British public still wants to use the NHS... I wonder if that is

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partly because their expectations are too low for a start, and

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secondly, that until recently, this CQC which has not done its job

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properly, but as Alan Johnson pointed out last night in this

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studio, until about 2000 we had nothing monitoring what was going on

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at all, we didn't really know. last time I was on the show we were

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talking about the number of complaints, that was mainly about

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GPs. That had gone up, the reason seems to have been because we have

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made it easier for people to complain. My parents generation,

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which was the first to enjoy the NHS, were so grateful because they

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had lived through the 20s and 30s, they wouldn't really think of

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complaining. If anything went wrong, it was their fault. They have been

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several generations since then, generations who now think that

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complaining is their right and of course it is. We have been told by

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successive governments, they are spending ever-increasing amounts of

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our money. Millions of millions of pounds of money has been spent on

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gagging orders in the NHS, gagging whistleblowers, which is a scandal,

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because they are trying to raise concern with what is going wrong in

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hospitals and they have been suppressed with taxpayers money,

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legally. There is a lot to go on here. I want to ask you, what is

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your favourite political buzzword? Crowd sourcing? That Heidi Parenti,

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omnishambles? What shame none of you mentioned the current phrase in

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Labour circles, which is pre-distribution. It is an idea

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dreamt up by Ed Miliband 's new intellectual guru, Jacob Hacker. It

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is a way of redesigning what the government does when you don't want

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to spend any more money or raise A conference in Oxford, 2012. The

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leader of the Labour Party meets an academic called Professor Jacob

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Hacker. He is sceptical of an economic system that lets the rich

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get richer and pays off the rest with benefits and tax credits.

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it has left them in is a position of having to mop up after the market

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when things go bad, either do redistribute to make sure that

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middle and working class people have enough income and adequate benefits,

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or to clean up after financial crises. The answer?

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Pre-distribution. A fairly similar -- simple idea, that inequality can

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be prevented before it even starts. Historically, the most important and

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effective things the state has done has been through pre-distribution,

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sanitation standards that protected public health, setting the standards

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that allowed Labour to -- labour movements to form. It can't just

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involve the government endlessly stepping in after the market deck

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has been built. We need to get the deck stacked a little bit in the

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favour of the people. It is a thread that runs through many of his

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biggest fans, like Ed Miliband. The idea that employers should be

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encouraged to pay a living wage which is higher than the minimum

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wage, so that business shares responsibility for the issues of

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income along with the government. But there is someone who isn't

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buying, David Cameron, who ridiculed Richard Bhushan last year. --

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redistribution. His recommendation is we spend an extra 200 billion and

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borrow an extra 200 billion in this Parliament. But in the work I have

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done, I have discovered his new book. It is published ) is to need

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of the press and it is called, the road to nowhere. We joke in the use

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of the best thing that can happen to a progressive is you are attacked in

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the Wall Street Journal. The best thing in the UK is you get attacked

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by conservative Prime Minister. His next appointment is he's off to

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Parliament to see if Miller band. -- Ed Miliband.

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We're joined by a former adviser to new Labour. Tell us, give us a

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simple explanation, short and simple, of pre-distribution.

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idea of prudish to be shown is added into the back of the jobs market in

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Britain has become hideously in equal -- pre-distribution. Tax

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credits are unsustainable so we have to make work, jobs and the labour

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market much fairer. For example, the best example that has been developed

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is the minimum wage has made some improvements in terms of making jobs

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fairer for people but the minimum wage, particularly in areas like

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London, is far too low. So the idea of a living wage is that we have

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higher minimums to which people are entitled, which makes the jobs they

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do fairer. It is an issue that speaks... A few years ago that was

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called London weighting. If you particular profession, he led a

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national salary but if you worked in London where the costs of living was

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higher, you got London weighting, a bit more to account for that.

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role sorts of ways in which governments step in to make things

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fairer, but the issue that is speaking to is the fact that despite

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lots of changes in benefits in the last 15 years or so, we still have a

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situation where insignificant parts of the country you will have a

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household with two income earners, going to work every day will working

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long hours, which is not adequate to keep them and their family in

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reasonable conditions. The notion of pre-distribution is looking at

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different ways of making the outcome fairer. The last Labour government

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favours tax credits and the minimum wage, so is this really --

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repudiation of that approach? an interested critique of some of

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the policy measures that were introduced by the previous

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government. One of the measures was to introduce a huge number of tax

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credits designed to subsidise low wages. There is a recognition that

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that approach has become unsustainable for a number of

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reasons. Wages were simply not improving in time, real wages were

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actually decreasing for a significant proportion of the

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working population, but also, since the financial crisis, the amount of

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public money available to spend on these measures is falling, so we

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cannot rely on the government to keep stepping in. Except Labour has

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not imposed any cuts. The recent speeches by Ed Miliband and Ed balls

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have signified that Labour is going to... They didn't mention tax

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credits. The reason why wages have not kept pace with rice is and why

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real wages have been static, if not falling in some cases, it is a

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Western world phenomenon, it is true in the Eurozone and the US. The

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reasons behind it are complex that they are a huge macroeconomic

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reasons. There has been a shift from Labour to capital, Cheryl profits

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has risen substantially, share of wages has fallen. These are big

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changes which any Labour government would want to address although they

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all continued under the last Labour government. But I'm not sure if

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pre-distribution is not a mouse taking on an elephant. That is one

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aspect, but there are big structural changes which have driven the kinds

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of inequalities we have seen in countries like the UK. One aspect

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has to be about education and skills, all governments in the last

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30 years have talked about the importance of making the

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distribution of skills fairer, but we have a long way to go into and of

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addressing the needs of low skilled workers. Another aspect of this

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debate, in terms of changing structural attribution, is

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increasing the supply of well-paid, high-quality jobs in the UK economy,

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addressing issues like the manufacturing industry. The previous

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governor did not have a good record on that. So the point is that in

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Russian to pre-distribution, it is not just about addressing wages in

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the labour market, it is about the the doorstep of the big society.

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That bad? I am afraid so.You are seeing it is like the big society in

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that nobody knows what it means. They haven't a clue. I was talking

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to members in portcullis house when this came out and they were shaking

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their heads in disbelief saying, he is too much of a nerd. At the heart

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it is a good idea but the problem with political philosophies is how

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do you educate the average man and woman to what it means to them. You

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can't put predistribution on a pamphlet when you are campaigning

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for the next election. If you have a great idea, fantastic. But what will

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that manifest itself for the average person? What is the answer?If I

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knew that, I would be doing that job. Rather than minimum wage, I am

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struggling to see what Labour gets out of this. Administered wages

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should be related to the economic circumstances of the region, and

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that is only a reflection of what the Tories say about welfare

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benefits. If you are nursing in Durham you should not have the same

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wage as a nurse in Kensington. Is this, Labour has a problem in the

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polls at the moment. It is a head but not by a a lot and Labour

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strategists are worried that the league is not robust. If the economy

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is going to start picking up, they are even in more trouble. They need

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something that says, vote for me. This team does not think this is it.

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This team is not yet convinced. Andrew is right that predistribution

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is a terrible buzzword. Probably makes very little impact on most

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voters. You need a new word!The question is what is the underlying

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:17:55.:17:55.

policy programme. You have addressed the issue of wages. I think there

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are big issues about the school system and industrial policy, to use

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government to improve the quality and supply of jobs. Political

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parties have grappled with that. Since the end of the Second World

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War. This is not a search for novelty for the sake of novelty. It

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is making sure ideas have an impact. The big society has been a failure.

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The previous government did talk about this idea but did not

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implement what that meant. The final question to do with perception

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:18:41.:18:41.

rather than substance of what you have been talking about. The public

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already think that Ed Miliband is a bit of a Westminster policy wonk.

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Don't they reinforce everybody's worst fears? The big test is does

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the government have the ideas and policies to make a success of

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government? I am sure we could invent a much more voter friendly

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concept than the notion of predistribution but the point is,

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does the future Labour government have the ideas to make a

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difference? That is underlining test. That is true whether you call

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it predistribution or not. Indeed. Thank you. Pleasure.Next week

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Chancellor Osborne will set out his spending review which will take

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departmental spending through the period of the next election in 2015

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:19:36.:19:36.

and into 2016. The election is in May and that he runs until 2016.

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Jeffrey, sorry, I mean George, is looking for a further �11.5 billion

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from most departments to cover the extra borrowing he's had to

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:19:54.:20:06.

undertake over the last three years. This morning, the ONS released their

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latest borrowing figures and Hugh Pym's been looking at them and joins

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us now. The Chancellor has been saying

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consistently that the deficit was coming down year by year. It looked

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as if it would happen by the skin of his teeth and that is what the

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estimates showed but the latest figures from the office of National

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statistics show that borrowing was up slightly in 2012 than 2011. The

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Treasury are saying they have revised down 2011, they borrowed

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less and that is good news. Labour as you can imagine are seeing the

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whole narrative has been about deficit reduction and borrowing was

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up. That is embarrassing for the Chancellor.

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They are dancing on the head of a pin. This is a small difference

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between two huge numbers and they are the residue of another two even

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bigger numbers. For most people, the fact is the deficit was the same

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last year as it was the year before. Isn't that the truth?

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And probably this financial year as well. Yes. �120 billion flat. No

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messing around. The borrowing picture is flat. 120 billion,

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unchanged over three years, quite a lot of money. That is where you are.

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Playing around with hundreds of millions does not amount to much.

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But when you talk about reducing the deficit and borrowing has gone up a

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bit, that does raise some questions. It is the same for three years. You

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could set deficit reduction has stalled. But the main -- May figures

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look a bit better. I understand that is partly because of a shed load of

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money has arrived from Switzerland. Yes. The figures for May, the

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Chancellor borrowed 12.5 billion rather than 15.5 the previous year,

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so down a bit. Once you strip out lots of factors like the Royal mail

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pension fund that I will not bore you with. He got �3 million as a

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result of deals with the Swiss tax authorities to get more money out of

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British people with accounts in Switzerland. That is a one-off

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though. But yes, the figures for May were helped by the Swiss factor.

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Given that his deficit reduction plan has clearly stored and could be

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for three years, I suppose the one thing he may be optimistic about is

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if these signs are brought and he does not use green shoots, he says

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the economy is healing, if these signs are right and we get more

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growth, the deficit will resume its downward trajectory?

:23:14.:23:22.

Indeed. Growth and more growth than he predicted means more tax revenues

:23:22.:23:25.

coming in, lower spending on benefits and the deficit coming

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down. That is what he is hoping for. The three years, including this

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current year, were flat. He will hope to put that behind him. But

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where will the growth come from? That debate will go on. Will the

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Bank of England new governor help, will the housing market measures

:23:46.:23:52.

help? We will have to see. That will have a big potential impact on

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borrowing and the deficit. Thanks for joining us.

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Now, what might be holding back economic growth? Familiar answers

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include cuts in infrastructure spending and lack of consumer

:24:03.:24:07.

confidence but what about the workers? The Confederation of

:24:07.:24:15.

British Industry thinks we just don't have the right skills or

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attitude. According to their new survey, half of UK companies are

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having to provide training in basic numeracy and literacy to get their

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workforce up to the standards required to do the job. The survey

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of 294 firms found 48% of employers organised remedial training in at

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least one basic skill area for adult staff already for them. The CBI

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found there was also a problem with potential employees leaving schools

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and colleges, with a third of companies saying they are

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dissatisfied with their basic literacy and numeracy. Almost half

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of businesses are worried about whether they can recruit high

:24:45.:24:48.

skilled workers in the future, with a particular problem in the

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:24:58.:24:58.

technical STEM skills of science, technology, engineering, and maths.

:24:58.:25:00.

The CBI warn that the "stubborn skills shortage" could hold back

:25:01.:25:04.

growth in the UK, and is calling on the government not to cut Vince

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Cable's budget in next week's spending review.

:25:10.:25:13.

Neil Carberry, the CBI's director of education and skills, joins us now

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along with Christine Blower, the general secretary of the National

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Union of Teachers. Welcome to both of you. Let's start with the CBI.

:25:25.:25:30.

The report is very interesting but I would also say to you it tells us

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nothing we did not know already. Reports like this have appeared

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since the Royal commission in 1868. Why don't you do something about it?

:25:40.:25:43.

If you have known for all these years that this country does not

:25:43.:25:49.

have the right skills, why doesn't industry do something about it?

:25:49.:25:53.

Businesses all across the country are. If you have been to the JCB

:25:53.:26:01.

Academy, we have a lot of our major members investing in the kind of

:26:01.:26:04.

technical and vocational education that will help address the kind of

:26:04.:26:12.

things you have been talking about. I know the JCB Academy, I know the

:26:12.:26:19.

work that Ken Baker is doing as well, but these are not the result

:26:19.:26:25.

of a concerted effort by industry to upscale the nation. These are

:26:25.:26:29.

individuals who are doing their best by collectively -- but collectively

:26:29.:26:39.
:26:39.:26:41.

there is a drop in the pond. We are looking to have up to 200 UCTs, we

:26:41.:26:44.

are looking at working with colleges, so business spends about

:26:44.:26:52.

�40 billion a year on training staff, well over �1000 per worker in

:26:52.:26:58.

the labour market. If that was working properly, we would not have

:26:58.:27:02.

the skills shortage? Part of the problem is that the skills system is

:27:02.:27:06.

driven by government and not by businesses so at the moment, the

:27:06.:27:13.

funding stream to things like apprenticeships runs from government

:27:13.:27:17.

through the providers. Why doesn't it run on the other way round? Why

:27:17.:27:22.

doesn't business say, this is what we want, we will pay for it, and we

:27:22.:27:27.

will take it off the tax bill with government support. That would make

:27:27.:27:33.

business needs, business would come to be treated as a customer, better

:27:33.:27:39.

quality of apprenticeships. And importantly, we will build some

:27:39.:27:43.

links with schools that will help replace the careers advice deficit

:27:43.:27:50.

that we have at the moment. There are quite significant industry -

:27:50.:27:56.

school links. I started teaching in 1973 and we had them then. In

:27:56.:28:03.

teaching, we regret the lack of proper face-to-face careers guidance

:28:03.:28:06.

and we think careers education should be starting in primary school

:28:06.:28:11.

and be all the way through. You can have all the careers guidance you

:28:11.:28:17.

want but one in three school leavers to not have basic numerous sea and

:28:17.:28:21.

literacy skills. There is a debate about what basic numerous sea and

:28:21.:28:26.

literacy means. We have half the country getting GCSE maths and

:28:26.:28:32.

English, a to C, and that is a universal exam, so kids who did not

:28:32.:28:39.

do any exams aren't doing this. you can't get a job because you

:28:39.:28:43.

haven't got the basic maths and literacy skills, the debate is

:28:43.:28:49.

irrelevant. The employers have decided the debate. Why do so many

:28:49.:28:53.

young children leave our schools without a sick maths and literacy

:28:53.:29:03.
:29:03.:29:03.

skills? I am contesting the point about basic literacy and maths. We

:29:03.:29:09.

are a dressing... I am saying, for example, London schools are doing

:29:09.:29:14.

the very best in the country and that is because of schools working

:29:14.:29:17.

together and with other people. Those things are being addressed

:29:17.:29:24.

through the system. In the way I read the report, these people are

:29:24.:29:28.

getting jobs and then employers are seeking to address this. There is

:29:28.:29:33.

probably a discussion we can have about making sure there is an

:29:33.:29:40.

agreement earlier on. Let him reply. She must be saying that there aren't

:29:40.:29:47.

these problems. There are but the critical issue is for the most part

:29:47.:29:52.

we have made some progress on this. You started off saying things rarely

:29:53.:29:57.

change. Actually we are in a better place today on literacy than we were

:29:57.:30:02.

ten years ago. The issue is the one son Michael Wilshaw pointed to

:30:02.:30:08.

yesterday, that we have these pockets of underachievement driven

:30:08.:30:15.

in particular by a focus on getting people over the C grade GCSE

:30:15.:30:18.

boundary, which encourages you not to bother with the people there were

:30:18.:30:22.

down, and that leads to the fact that there is a significant minority

:30:22.:30:27.

of young people who are not being well served. Your report says 41%

:30:28.:30:35.

cannot solve problems, 54% have poor self management. That is because

:30:35.:30:39.

there are perverse incentives in the education system. If schools are

:30:39.:30:47.

focusing on getting kids across the C grade boundary, and not focusing

:30:47.:30:51.

on creating rounded and grounded young people, that appears twice in

:30:51.:30:56.

the introduction to the CBI report and we agree with that. We need to

:30:56.:31:02.

make sure the whole young person is developed. Problem-solving skills

:31:02.:31:05.

are critical, creativity is critical, so just focusing on

:31:05.:31:15.

getting a grade C is not enough. We need to be making sure that we are

:31:15.:31:18.

dealing with the whole young person so that actually they are more able

:31:18.:31:22.

to be self-starters, to be self managing, and to deal with

:31:22.:31:27.

creativity and solving. Did you talk to the NUJ before producing this

:31:27.:31:37.
:31:37.:31:44.

report? We had a steering group, talked to them. Have you contributed

:31:44.:31:52.

to this report? Not to this report we will be working together going

:31:52.:31:57.

forward. We are all in favour of industry. People need jobs! Would do

:31:57.:32:07.

you make of it? If those two sticks are true, I think it is shocking. --

:32:07.:32:12.

statistics. We here at all the time, employers saying that kids are

:32:12.:32:16.

leaving school and they can't construct a sentence and it is

:32:16.:32:24.

terrible. Not all employers say that, they will be some people whose

:32:24.:32:29.

literacy need some support, but the fact is there are large numbers of

:32:29.:32:33.

people who are now doing public examinations who didn't do them

:32:33.:32:36.

before and actually who are perfectly literate and numerate. It

:32:36.:32:40.

is not the case to say there are swathes of these people. The point

:32:40.:32:47.

that Neal picked up on, that there are pockets... 50% need extra

:32:47.:32:55.

training according to this report, so there are swathes! There should

:32:55.:32:59.

be a responsibility on business to provide training. You are saying

:32:59.:33:03.

about time management, there are two points here, one is that we have a

:33:03.:33:07.

huge focus on getting people passing exams, identikit is all about that,

:33:07.:33:11.

it is not about sending everyone to university. It should be on life

:33:11.:33:19.

skills... But it is about getting basic reading, writing and

:33:19.:33:26.

arithmetic... You are talking about those things and of course they are

:33:26.:33:29.

important but then you are talking about time management and those

:33:29.:33:33.

skills as well, and there is very little emphasis on that in schools

:33:33.:33:40.

and universities because everyone is going after the grades. Doesn't this

:33:40.:33:42.

report highlight again the long-running weakness in British

:33:42.:33:48.

education. All the political elite consecrate an academic excellence

:33:48.:33:54.

and they have never given, unlike the Germans, due weight to

:33:55.:34:04.

education? We would like to give the idea that vocational education is

:34:04.:34:10.

important, but we identify in the report is a shortage of skills at

:34:10.:34:16.

level four, in the first couple of years of university, in key

:34:16.:34:25.

technical things that underpin the industrial strategy. If you talk to

:34:25.:34:27.

businesses around the country, they will say for every engineering

:34:27.:34:31.

graduate they hire, they hire ten people doing technician work and

:34:31.:34:35.

unless we can get good people from our schools understanding that these

:34:35.:34:42.

jobs are available and getting them into them to build the new DLR...

:34:42.:34:52.
:34:52.:34:53.

That vocational education should be regarded as just as important.

:34:53.:34:56.

things we think of as vocational are completely different from other

:34:56.:35:00.

things we think of now as vocational. I am bound to say there

:35:00.:35:03.

is no pushback from the National union of teachers about the fact we

:35:03.:35:08.

need good quality vocational education. The other thing is the

:35:08.:35:15.

thing of modern foreign languages. If it hadn't been in and out,

:35:16.:35:21.

voluntary, compulsory, we would be in a better position with that.

:35:21.:35:26.

the Daily Politics we are fluent in that! We may proceed with the rest

:35:26.:35:32.

of the programme. We are glad to have brought you to together. Thank

:35:32.:35:38.

you both. Tomorrow marks the fifth anniversary of the arrival in

:35:38.:35:44.

Tilbury, Essex, of HMS Windrush. -- 65th anniversary. On board with the

:35:44.:35:49.

first wave of immigrants from the Caribbean, lowered by us to what was

:35:49.:35:53.

then regarded as the mother country with the promise of work and a new

:35:53.:36:00.

life. We were in those days short of labour. Let's have a look at how the

:36:00.:36:10.
:36:10.:36:11.

news was covered back in 1948. Empire Windrush brings to Britain

:36:11.:36:14.

500 Jamaicans, many are ex-servicemen who know England. They

:36:14.:36:18.

served this country well. In Jamaica they couldn't find work. Discouraged

:36:18.:36:21.

but full of hope, they sailed to Britain, coming to the mother

:36:21.:36:26.

country with good intent, prodded by public opinion. The Colonial office

:36:26.:36:31.

gives them a more cordial reception than was at first envisaged. Our

:36:31.:36:40.

reporter asks them what they want to do. To seek a job. Anything that can

:36:40.:36:50.
:36:50.:36:51.

get a good pay. What is your name? Lord Kitchener. London is the place

:36:51.:37:01.
:37:01.:37:02.

for me... London, this lovely city... You can go to France or

:37:02.:37:12.
:37:12.:37:12.

America, India, Asia or Australia, but you must come back to London...

:37:12.:37:15.

The think tank British Future is leading the celebration of the

:37:15.:37:20.

positive contribution to British education and we're joined by its

:37:20.:37:26.

director, Sunder Katwala. Just to stick with the people who came off

:37:26.:37:32.

the HMS Windrush all those years ago, when they arrived here, they

:37:32.:37:37.

came here, they have their hats on, they are dressed in suits and shirts

:37:37.:37:42.

and ties. When they got here, this was a country that it isn't today, I

:37:42.:37:49.

would suggest, a pretty widespread racist attitude to people who came

:37:49.:37:55.

from the Caribbean. That was a shock to them, because they were brought

:37:55.:37:58.

up in their schools as British, with Shakespeare, they know the history

:37:58.:38:03.

of Britain, and they think the British people all know the history

:38:03.:38:08.

of Jamaica and where it fits in, so that is a shock, to realise it.

:38:08.:38:12.

There is a sense of people who have come here for a better life, a sense

:38:12.:38:17.

of change and loss on both sides and of conflict over years and decades.

:38:17.:38:21.

Also people have come saying, we might come and go back but you have

:38:21.:38:25.

children and you decide to stay and at that point you fight the place in

:38:25.:38:32.

society. The shock must've been all the more because we had lured them

:38:32.:38:36.

to come, especially in the London area, we needed people to drive the

:38:36.:38:39.

buses, run the tube trains, there was a huge labour shortage the

:38:39.:38:45.

Second World War. So there is an appeal for immigration, this is

:38:45.:38:51.

voluntary immigration. They had been a lot of previous immigration to

:38:51.:38:57.

Britain, but they had to flee, and people had chosen to pay �20 to get

:38:57.:39:00.

a passage. A lot of them are returning to Britain, Sam King who

:39:01.:39:05.

was on the boat, had been in the RAF, he had his medals, he was going

:39:05.:39:10.

back to what he thought was a colony and he didn't want to live in a

:39:10.:39:15.

colony. He wanted to go for a better life. In spite of the racial

:39:15.:39:25.

generation, had the Windrush generation there? There was a lot of

:39:25.:39:27.

conflict, the initial group that came was quite well educated, they

:39:27.:39:31.

didn't get to use their skills, didn't get jobs at the level they

:39:31.:39:34.

would have expected, and the children probably had to fight for a

:39:34.:39:40.

place in society and thought that parents were too deferential and not

:39:40.:39:44.

assertive enough. We still have a lot of anxiety about immigration but

:39:44.:39:48.

the question of who is Britain -- British and who isn't is relatively

:39:48.:39:53.

settled. We now claim the HMS Windrush, it is part of a shared

:39:53.:39:58.

history and it has become symbolic. About a third of us, our parents or

:39:58.:40:04.

grandparents were immigrants. But is it also shared by the whole country?

:40:04.:40:09.

What if your family go back many generations before, do you know

:40:09.:40:14.

share this part of your shared history? The years after the

:40:14.:40:20.

Windrush, there were much bigger waves of aggression to this

:40:20.:40:24.

country, Ugandan Asians, the Kenyan Asians, all those from the

:40:24.:40:28.

subcontinent as well. Then we had the huge influx and the last Labour

:40:29.:40:36.

government. There seems to be consensus now that immigration got

:40:36.:40:43.

kind of out of hand. It is a legitimate debate about what the

:40:43.:40:46.

choice is Britain should make are, but whatever level of immigration

:40:46.:40:49.

you decide to have, welcomed the contribution of those who have come,

:40:49.:40:53.

who have made... It is important that we accept the previous groups

:40:53.:40:58.

that have come as part of that debate, one of the ways people

:40:58.:41:06.

integrate is how we bring about the next wave of immigrants. Have we

:41:06.:41:12.

allowed... The fact is, we have, you only have to go to a northern city

:41:12.:41:18.

and seamless link amenities living on their own. People want to belong

:41:18.:41:22.

to a new society, here you have people who felt they belonged and

:41:22.:41:26.

were told they didn't and earned the right to belong again. People have

:41:26.:41:30.

too want to feel British and Britain has deep say, you are equally part

:41:30.:41:36.

of us. I disagree about the words of multiculturalism, we are a

:41:36.:41:39.

multiethnic society now, we don't have debates about sending them

:41:39.:41:45.

back, do we have a shared society everyone contributes to? It does

:41:45.:41:50.

take time, it can be difficult, but as a society, I think a bid to other

:41:50.:41:53.

European societies and the US we would be getting them more than

:41:53.:41:59.

other countries. One of the things about Windrush Day is whether you

:41:59.:42:02.

have been here for generations, we have a shared response ability to

:42:02.:42:12.
:42:12.:42:15.

make society work. Would you think? Ed Miliband said that the last

:42:16.:42:19.

Labour government got it wrong. I think it was their policy to

:42:19.:42:25.

increase immigration. I think in this designer Labour party

:42:25.:42:28.

strongholds. There is a failure there of integration is you only

:42:28.:42:34.

need to go to Tower Hamlets, a few miles from here, people are separate

:42:34.:42:39.

from the rest. That is regrettable, and in cities like Bradford as well.

:42:39.:42:43.

It is a very delicate area and a sensitive area as well and David

:42:43.:42:51.

Cameron is quite right, I think, to say he wants to cut immigration.

:42:51.:42:54.

is a dodgy figure, the net figure because it depends on the number of

:42:54.:43:00.

people leaving and that includes just people leaving as well. The

:43:00.:43:04.

political rhetoric now is pretty much, we have had enough immigration

:43:04.:43:11.

for a while, let's get the numbers down, isn't that right? It is, but

:43:11.:43:15.

it feels to me like a knee jerk, negative rhetoric because of the

:43:15.:43:19.

success that UKIP is having. I think it is wonderful we are celebrating

:43:19.:43:22.

this and I think we should be remembering and reminding people how

:43:22.:43:26.

important it is to have migrants coming to this country. The vast

:43:26.:43:32.

majority of people coming to this country is because they want to find

:43:32.:43:35.

jobs and they believe they will do here. They are filling huge numbers

:43:35.:43:39.

of jobs at the youth of Britain are not prepared do. Perhaps because

:43:39.:43:49.
:43:49.:43:53.

they haven't got the skills! We have these debates, this is the scourge

:43:53.:43:59.

of the welfare state, in the vast majority, that isn't the case.

:43:59.:44:03.

many years, we have come on leaps and bounds. You can still see the

:44:03.:44:13.

old TV footage from Notting Hill of no dogs, no blacks. No Irish, in the

:44:13.:44:17.

windows for vacancies. But where does the debate on immigration and

:44:17.:44:27.
:44:27.:44:28.

integration go now? Of course you should worry about people who are

:44:28.:44:30.

being racist but the majority of people worried about immigration are

:44:30.:44:32.

not being racist and we should become fluent about having that

:44:32.:44:36.

debate. The Prime Minister wants to reduce immigration, you once more

:44:36.:44:46.
:44:46.:44:49.

people, but he's celebrating the Windrush generation, it is important

:44:49.:44:51.

to get the foundations right and have the debate about what the

:44:51.:44:54.

choices are. The people who want to say shut the border, that is not the

:44:54.:45:04.
:45:04.:45:07.

real world. If the pace of change too great,? Is their fairness? You

:45:07.:45:10.

can only be fair to migrants if you are fair to everyone and say, if you

:45:10.:45:13.

get the rules right, then people who want to come and contribute and be

:45:13.:45:16.

part of a society, you have a history. But it is not racist to say

:45:16.:45:26.
:45:26.:45:31.

we should cut immigration and we tomorrow.

:45:31.:45:41.

Now, have you seen any strange objects in the night sky recently?

:45:41.:45:44.

Maybe you've spotted little green men from Mars having a look around

:45:44.:45:47.

Planet Earth. You might even have spent some time on board ship after

:45:47.:45:56.

being abducted by aliens. It happens to the best of us. Well, if so, this

:45:56.:46:00.

item's for you! Yes, the National Archives have released files today

:46:00.:46:03.

relating to reports of unidentified flying objects made between 2007 and

:46:03.:46:09.

2009. They explain why the Ministry of Defence's UFO desk and telephone

:46:09.:46:13.

hotline were shut down in December 2009 after 50 years service - a

:46:13.:46:17.

victim of government austerity. The decision to axe the MOD desk

:46:17.:46:23.

came despite an increase in UFO reports. Annual sightings rose from

:46:23.:46:25.

an average of 150 a year at the beginning of the century to 520 in

:46:25.:46:28.

2009, before the desk was shut down, as well as 97 Freedom of Information

:46:28.:46:35.

requests. Sightings reported between 2007 and 2009 included "discoid

:46:35.:46:42.

shapes" above Stonehenge. A report that somebody was living with an

:46:42.:46:46.

alien in Carlisle. Even coloured lights just down the road over the

:46:46.:46:56.

Houses of Parliament. So why did the UFO desk face the chop? Well,

:46:56.:46:59.

according to civil servants, after 50 years' work, it had found no

:46:59.:47:03.

evidence of a military threat to the UK and that despite costs going up,

:47:03.:47:07.

it was providing no valuable defence output.

:47:07.:47:13.

Well, if the truth is out there, maybe one of these gentlemen has

:47:14.:47:20.

stumbled over it. We're joined by Dr David Clarke, an expert on UFO

:47:20.:47:23.

history at the National Archives, and Lembit Opik, erstwhile Lib Dem

:47:23.:47:26.

MP, and a lecturer for the Association for the Scientific Study

:47:26.:47:35.

of Anomalous Phenomena. Being a Lib Dem, he is pretty qualified to deal

:47:35.:47:45.

with anomalous phenomena! Greetings. The USA has got a much bigger UFO

:47:45.:47:52.

desk. Had, in the 60s.We are cutting hours down. Because we

:47:52.:47:57.

didn't find anything. It all started with Winston Churchill because he

:47:57.:48:02.

was interviewed by the daily Telegraph in 1954 and his response

:48:02.:48:05.

was that he thought people on other planets should be treated with the

:48:05.:48:11.

contempt they deserve. We have just been talking about what a welcoming

:48:11.:48:20.

country we are! The problem you have is if there are people out there and

:48:20.:48:24.

they are constantly visiting us, some of these sightings may even be

:48:24.:48:32.

true, why did none of them ever land and say hello? My stepmother is

:48:32.:48:38.

Estonian, an alien, that is the same thing. The complaints process is now

:48:38.:48:46.

underway! In a nice way.They do not land because they are not there!

:48:46.:48:52.

beggars belief to think there is no other intelligent life among 6

:48:52.:48:57.

million planets. If there is intelligent life, would they be 10

:48:57.:49:00.

million years ahead? If so they will be making interstellar journey is

:49:00.:49:07.

the way we will. I think if they have made 15 trillion mile

:49:07.:49:11.

journeys, they will be smart enough to cloak themselves from us, we will

:49:11.:49:16.

not be able to see them. Why do they leave the lights on when they

:49:16.:49:23.

arrive? As you well know, most of those UFO observations are made at

:49:23.:49:30.

closing time all over the country and 90 8% of them are explainable,

:49:30.:49:37.

but a small percentage have not been explained and it is a crying shame

:49:37.:49:44.

we have not kept that open. Yes I agree but not with public money.

:49:44.:49:48.

Scientists can do that kind of research. Given the size of the

:49:48.:49:51.

universe, it is perfectly possible there is life somewhere else in the

:49:52.:50:00.

universe. But when you look at the distances involved, I think the

:50:00.:50:08.

nearest Sun, four light-years away, and so many billions of light years

:50:08.:50:13.

away, it is perfectly possible that these will exist and we will never

:50:13.:50:19.

ever crossed paths. Patrick Moore said we could expect a visit once in

:50:19.:50:24.

the entire history of humanity, and yet if you look at these files they

:50:24.:50:31.

are here every night. They are coming to listen to your programme

:50:31.:50:40.

perhaps. Some of them are on it!The bottom line is, the universe ought

:50:40.:50:46.

to be teeming with life. Why haven't they been here already? Because they

:50:46.:50:54.

are too far away. And maybe, no matter how advanced you are, nobody

:50:54.:50:59.

knows how to travel at the speed of light. You do not have to get to the

:50:59.:51:05.

speed of light, you get close to it. If you travel at the speed of light

:51:05.:51:10.

it could take a billion years to come from one of these? I used to do

:51:10.:51:18.

astronomy. You are right. I beg to differ. I will see your astronomy

:51:18.:51:25.

and I will raise you my grandfather, a professional astronomer, and he

:51:25.:51:30.

would say you can make these journeys with advanced technology.

:51:30.:51:35.

In 100 years we have gone from the first flight to the most incredible

:51:35.:51:39.

technology at the space station. What will we be doing in 10,000

:51:39.:51:44.

years? The big danger is that intelligent civilisations could wipe

:51:44.:51:54.

themselves out. If we survive this dangerous nuclear adolescence...

:51:54.:52:00.

want to bring in another point. You want us to believe, I am not arguing

:52:00.:52:04.

that there could be life out there but I do think the distances of the

:52:04.:52:09.

universe mean it is perfectly possible our paths will never cross,

:52:09.:52:12.

but you really want us to believe that some people have come here,

:52:12.:52:20.

have a look, given a wave, and then departed. Not waived.I made that

:52:20.:52:25.

bit up. They will not have made contact because it is too

:52:25.:52:31.

dangerous. We could annihilate ourselves through our lack of

:52:31.:52:38.

immunity between the two planets and the diseases. That is the anomaly.

:52:39.:52:43.

The sad thing is the fact it does not happen maybe means that

:52:43.:52:48.

civilisations do not make it through this dangerous adolescence. But that

:52:48.:52:55.

would mean they could not come here in the first place. That is one grim

:52:55.:53:00.

possibility. I choose to believe we can survive and if we can survive we

:53:00.:53:05.

will eventually meet our alien friends. With the Daily Mail, you

:53:05.:53:09.

must be used to working with aliens. This is a lovely idea and

:53:09.:53:14.

perhaps if they did come, they didn't stay because they didn't like

:53:14.:53:22.

the weather, and who could blame them? Babe all seem to come -- they

:53:22.:53:26.

all seem to come to the south-west of the United States! They have

:53:26.:53:31.

visited Stonehenge. They saw Prime Minister 's questions and that was

:53:31.:53:37.

enough, out of here! Does the Huffington Post have a line on

:53:37.:53:47.
:53:47.:53:47.

aliens? Bobbins. -- no. Maybe we should get one. This is officially

:53:47.:53:51.

the weirdest thing I have ever been asked to comment on! Then we will

:53:51.:53:58.

move on. We will let you go now. When they make contact with you, we

:53:58.:54:04.

want to know first! The scoop is ours! Will be get the first

:54:04.:54:14.
:54:14.:54:15.

interview? I won 20 of your other percent in that case. It is a deal.

:54:15.:54:18.

Thank you, gentlemen. Now, if you think that was strange,

:54:18.:54:25.

it's been pretty weird here on Planet Politics this week too. From

:54:25.:54:28.

tie-less leaders to the President of the United States confusing the

:54:28.:54:30.

Chancellor of the Exchequer with his favourite soul singer, here's the

:54:30.:54:40.
:54:40.:54:42.

week in 60 Seconds. The G8 in Lough Erne, Syria was on

:54:42.:54:51.

the agenda along with tax, trade and transparency. As well as ties.

:54:51.:54:57.

what I was told to do. Good boy. After Frankenstein food it is

:54:57.:55:01.

apparently time to bring the GM industry back to life according to

:55:01.:55:06.

Owen Paterson. Politicians saying things are safe risk coming a

:55:06.:55:11.

cropper. Not been much quality in the care quality remission after

:55:11.:55:16.

claims it covered up and expects and of a hospital where mums and babies

:55:16.:55:20.

had died -- the Care Quality Commission. And Boris said that

:55:20.:55:30.
:55:30.:55:31.

London is to the suit as Parma is to the Parmesan cheese. And Mr

:55:31.:55:37.

President's bungle after calling George Jeffrey. That of course is

:55:37.:55:47.
:55:47.:55:49.

not his name. It is Gideon. George, Jeffrey, Gideon have to

:55:49.:55:52.

deliver the spending review next week and we will be live on the

:55:52.:55:58.

daily politics. My understanding, there is still quite a lot of

:55:58.:56:03.

argument on between the Treasury and the government departments. All the

:56:03.:56:07.

champions of the austerity cuts are now running government departments

:56:07.:56:12.

that are about to be cut and are getting very upset about it.

:56:12.:56:17.

Understandably none of them want the cuts to hit them. We know education

:56:17.:56:24.

and the NHS will be protected throughout this. This means that the

:56:24.:56:31.

smaller amount of departments will have to take these cuts up to 8%

:56:31.:56:35.

each. If it had been perfectly shared it would have been 2.8% per

:56:35.:56:39.

department. They thought by the time we got to this stage, the economy

:56:39.:56:43.

would be flourishing again and we would be starting to spend and that

:56:43.:56:47.

is just not the case. Danny Alexander will have to say to his

:56:47.:56:55.

Lib Dem colleague Vince Cable, we have to cut some money. Michael Gove

:56:55.:57:01.

will also have to save some money. He is resisting. After the

:57:01.:57:04.

disappointing borrowing figures, it is all the more important George

:57:04.:57:09.

Osborne gets the cuts he wants. does not resonate with the public

:57:10.:57:15.

could it is about public spending in 2015-2016 and the figure could

:57:15.:57:21.

change. This is the problem for the average man and woman on the street.

:57:21.:57:26.

These numbers keep changing. Every time we hear the budget. It means

:57:26.:57:31.

people start to glaze over. It does not affect me, I still have less

:57:31.:57:35.

money in my pocket and therefore I am not happy with the way the

:57:35.:57:40.

country is being run. It is a tough one for Geoffrey Gideon, because he

:57:40.:57:46.

has had problems with his own union of ministers, problems with the

:57:46.:57:51.

coalition, he wanted to cut more welfare. He wanted six billion and

:57:51.:57:56.

Nick Clegg said no. As I understand it, it is going down to the wire,

:57:56.:58:03.

they have not got the 11.5 yen yet. They could always cut international

:58:03.:58:07.

aid which would be popular with the voters but the Prime Minister will

:58:07.:58:12.

not let him do that. I saw what a bad time Nick Clegg got over student

:58:12.:58:18.

tuition fees so they are desperate not to go back on explicit

:58:18.:58:26.

promises, international aid, NHS... Tuition fees was a popular policy

:58:27.:58:31.

for the Lib Dems. Increasing international aid is not a popular

:58:31.:58:39.

policy. You will be tuning in, I hope. Absolutely.The one o'clock

:58:39.:58:45.

news is starting over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC One on

:58:45.:58:49.

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