10/09/2013 Daily Politics


10/09/2013

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including chief minister of Gibraltar Fabian Picardo.


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Afternoon, welcome to the Daily Politics. He was booed two years

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ago, last year he didn't turn up, but Ed Miliband's addressing his

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union mates as I speak. But will Red Ed pick a fight or try and make

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friends with his comrades at the TUC over power in the party? As the US

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weighs over to act in Syria, a new diplomatic solution is on the table.

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Now we're in here, it's quite clear this isn't being rented by just one

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family. Bed bugs and no broomsticks. We delve into the shady world of

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private landlords and overcrowding. And it's National Gibraltar Day, hip

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hip hooray. All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

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programme today is Sir Robin Wales. He's the elected Labour mayor of

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Newham Council, here in London. Welcome to the programme. Now, first

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this morning, let's start with a little snap shot of Britain because

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according to a new survey on social attitudes out today, Britons have a

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stronger belief in politics than 30 years ago but trust politicians

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less. Surprise, surprise. The British Social Attitudes Report also

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says that people sympathise more with the unemployed but struggle to

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support spending more on benefits. You agree with that, don't you? That

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is what people tell us and that is what the survey said. What is

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happening is that as there is focus on benefits, people realise it is

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not as generous as you might think, and support for people who will not

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working is not where it should be. As benefits spending is up, the way

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to deal with it is to get people into employment. That is what people

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think. You said that the system cuts people's legs off. The issue is this

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think. You said that the system cuts safety net on welfare. We get that.

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When you start work, the claw-back on benefit and tax means it does not

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pay. It is ludicrous that if you are wealthy then you can get 50p to the

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pound. The current proposals would let people keep 35p. We need a

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system where if you work then you can keep some of that money was you

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need to reward work. Successive governments said that. You should

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always paid to be in work and this government has said that they want

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is to change the benefit system to enforce that. Your contributory

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welfare system, will it reinforce that system between the deserving

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and undeserving? You need to support people into work. The current

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programme is a disaster and is not working. In my constituency we have

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a system. We spend money and get 5000 people a year into work. You

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need to support people into work. You would like to see more benefits

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for people in work and lesser people out of work? I think there needs to

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a safety net. That should include kids. We gave for e-mails to primary

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school kids. -- free school meals.I think people understand this. If you

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can encourage people to work and support them into work, and the

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evidence we have is that you can help people into work but you must

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invest. People need help. Do it properly and you can reduce the

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benefit Bill. Work is the solution to the problem. Shouldn't employers

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pay people more for the work they do, otherwise the tax credit system

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has been criticised because it keeps people on benefits. One thing we

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have said this government is, could we enforce the minimum wage? We know

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a lot of people are being paid under the minimum wage. We have said that

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lets make sure work is paid. We should move the minimum wage up. We

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are supporting this. It is all about putting the whole package together

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and this government is more concerned about attacking poor

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people and driving people out of London because they cannot afford to

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live there any more. They are more concerned with that than dealing

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with the issues. Now it's time for our daily quiz. Today we've learned,

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from one of his former England team-mates that footballer David

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Beckham had a crush on the wife of a British Prime Minister. So who was

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it? Was it:- A Sarah Brown, B Cherie Blair, C Norma Major, or D Samantha

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Cameron. At the end of the show, Robin Wales will give us the correct

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answer. Now, who says the BBC doesn't provide great family

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entertainment? Yesterday afternoon at 3.15pm, seven top players, past

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and present, from the world's leading public sector broadcaster

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appeared in front of the Commons Public Accounts Committee to answer

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some tough questions about big executive pay-offs. Eastenders, eat

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your heart out, here's a flavour of the event. Why was half £1 million,

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which for most people was a lot of money, not enough to get rid of

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someone who you decided was not needed? We were in the middle of a

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restructuring of the BBC, which meant losing a quarter of the senior

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management. We were in the middle of a series of gigantic projects to

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include the New Broadcasting House, and Salford. It also included the

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royal wedding and the Olympics. We took the decision, and it was my

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judgement, and we discussed it with the BBC Trust, that we wanted Mark

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fully focused on the enormous task we had. We did not want him taking

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calls from headhunters, we wanted him fully focused, and that is why

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we did not ask him to work through his notice. You had to apologise

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we did not ask him to work through because you claimed not to see a

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document... I think...We need to take that evidence with a pinch of

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salt. That is grossly unfair. You are referring to a document but I

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did not understand which document you meant at the time. After that

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meeting I was shown the document and I recognised it as a document I was

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involved in. I clarified that. All I said to the committee, and I am in

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some difficulty about this, I was not party to the agreement. I am in

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a position where I am accused of having misled the committee on

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something I never knew. Why was it not in the induction pack? We were

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not aware of the arrangements, either in writing or through all

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contact. That is the fact of the matter. I cannot believe that!If

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you want me to explain, I will do so. To discuss the fallout from

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yesterday's committee meeting I'm joined by member of the Public

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Accounts Committee Stewart Jackson, and by media commentator and friend

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of the programme Steve Hewlett. Your thoughts on the performances of Mark

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Thompson and Chris Patten? I thought Thompson was at the top of his game.

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He had a lot of riding of this, his potential media career, if he was

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seen to have lied or misled. He prepared well and was on top of his

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game. He was able to direct the committee towards looking at the

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failings and the dysfunctional nature of the relationship

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failings and the dysfunctional senior members of the BBC Trust. Are

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we any the wiser as to why departing executives were paid more than was

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necessary? You can sum it up by saying the BBC thought it was

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entitled to give private-sector pay and conditions in lieu of notice. I

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think there was a culture of the higher up you get, the more likely

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you were to get more enhanced payments. It was unacceptable and

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wrong. There was, demonstrated by the evidence, a disconnect between

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the managers and the rest of the staff. I was in a newsroom not 1

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million miles from here and when Margaret Hodge said, we will have no

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more lies today, thank you, a cheer went up from the staff in the

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newsroom. That's just tells you that there is a degree of dysfunction.

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Just to be clear, I do not think there is any doubt about what

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happened here and who was paid what, and who authorised it. Mark Thompson

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said he authorised it and it was a policy to reduced senior manager pay

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as soon as possible. He said he stood by it. The tricky bit here is

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about the BBC Trust and that isn't about whether they authorised it

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about the BBC Trust and that isn't because they never tire of saying,

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constitutionally, they are not allowed to authorise it. The

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question is, do they know? If you have an organisation called the BBC

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Trust, just think about the name for a second, which is there to protect

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licence payer's interest, but cannot express a view or intervene

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effectively when something is going wrong, then you plainly have a

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problem. I think it is more concentrated than that in this case.

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The original position which is that they had no documents or no

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recollections is completely wrong. That does not mean they knew

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everything. Did they know, in general? Yes, they did. The

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spotlight is on the BBC Trust and quite rightly in a way. They are the

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ones who were caught looking as though they have not been

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straightforward. Is that how you see it in terms of Chris Patten and the

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Trust? I think he should consider his position. He should go or be

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fired. He was not there, in fairness to him. He did not arrive at the BBC

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until several months after this. My problem is that you have Tony hall

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trying to gag everything. These people are paid a lot of money and

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have brought the BBC into disrepute. The BBC is a fantastic thing for

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this country and gives the enemies of the BBC more opportunities to

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criticise it. It started with a of the BBC more opportunities to

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payoff of George Entwistle. The National Audit Office began to look

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at payments after that and we are now in a fight with the BBC because,

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although we have used Parliamentary privilege and said we wanted the

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names of the managers who received payoffs, the culture was about

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payments made before they were signed off, and weak oversight. That

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is the issue. Who is to blame for that? There will be staff and

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members of the public who have taken a sharp intake of breath at the £1

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million payoff. The people in the front line of the management. Mark

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Thompson said that was the policy he stood by and he would do the same

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again. He argued that it was worth its, even if it meant paying over

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the odds. The overall Bill has been reduced and they say they have saved

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188 million. That is a valid argument. If we delayed and had done

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more negotiation it would have cost the licence payer of fortune. I

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think you will agree that the trust were asleep on the job. They are

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dysfunctional. Should somebody pay for that? Just to , meant --

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complements the committee, Mark Thomson's argument was that if they

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had not paid the extra, then he said his I would not be on the ball. How

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does an institution, in that sense, gets to that point? It is people at

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the top of the pyramid to all know each other and came into

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broadcasting at the same time. It happens in lots of institutions. Let

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me give you an example. You want to happens in lots of institutions. Let

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get rid of a cleaner, you double the payoff. That is true. That is

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something we need to crack down on. I preferred that Mark Thompson has

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said, I think it is right. You can criticise it but at least there is

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leadership there. It is leadership criticise it but at least there is

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and I think we should go forward with that. Do we need to hear from

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Tony hall? In this respect, in terms with that. Do we need to hear from

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of what happened then, not really. I think he is widely trying to stay

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out of the way and focus on... This is where the Trust are in

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difficulty. I think what they would like to do is be part of Tony

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hall's future and not part of Mark's past. They want to be in the

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new era of maximum pay-outs of hundred and 50 million and they

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don't want to be in the million pound payoff. The trouble is that

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they cannot escape their own history. I think the BBC Trust is

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asked and the BBC need to look for a new way forward. just yesterday, it

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seemed like President Obama was set on taking military action in Syria,

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as he took to the airwaves to persuade people to support him. Now

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he has said he will put plans for a military strike on hold if Syria

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agrees to place its military stockpile of weapons under control.

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France has said it would put a resolution to this to the UN

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Security Council. Last night, he was asked if this could pause military

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action? Absolutely, if that happened. I don't think we would

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have got to this point unless we have maintained a credible

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possibility of military strikes. I have maintained a credible

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want to make sure that the norm against chemical weapons is

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maintained. We are joined now by a Conservative MP who has just

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returned from the Syrian border. What is your response to this idea

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of Syria putting its chemical weapons at arms length and under

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international control? I think anything is possible. But I don't

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think a scorpion ever changes its habits, so I am not optimistic. We

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have two go the extra mile, give the Syrian government every opportunity

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to give up their chemical weapons. And if, the Secretary of State, John

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Kerry, said yesterday, if they are prepared to give up their chemical

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weapons this week, then perhaps they can prevent action being taken

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against them. Do you think it is right for President Obama to

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persuade Congress that while this is discussed, they should put military

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strikes on hold? He should ensure a resolution is passed, so if he does

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not give up his chemical weapons, I think the United States and the

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Alliance that has been put together, can take what ever action

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is necessary to bring President Assad to account. Would you like to

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see military action? I would like to see an end to the Civil War. So

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anything that could bring an end to the Civil War, I would like to see

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happen. But I would like to see President Assad and his brother, who

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I believe is directly responsible for the chemical attack, brought

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before the courts in the Hague. You have been on the Turkish, Syrian

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border so you will have seen floods of refugees trying to leave Syria

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for some sort of safe haven. Do you think this potential idea, which

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seems to me is about saving face for the politicians involved, will it

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help Syrians who are frightened for their lives? No it is not. There

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have been over 100,000 people killed by the president is sad military

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machine and by taking chemical weapons out of the occasion is not

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going to stop what is an asymmetrical war in which the Syrian

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regime is constantly bombarding both with aeroplanes and helicopters,

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heavy artillery and shells and so on, on innocent, Syrian civilians.

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Frankly, there is nothing I see in the future that will bring that to

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an end. Do you think President Assad will go for this idea? I think he

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will use it, as he always does, as a delaying tactic. I think the

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Russians will do everything possible to make sure it is used as a

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delaying device. I don't think there is any honest approach to try to

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bring an end to the Civil War. He will try to slaughter his people

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into submission with or without chemical weapons. Thanks for joining

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us. Jim Ure, our Middle East correspondence is in Beirut. Is this

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a turning point, or is it a delaying tactic? Obviously we will have to

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a turning point, or is it a delaying wait and see. I have always been

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foolishly optimistic on these things. I think when we look back in

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a few years, we might conceivably see it as a turning point. The

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Russians are now proposing something the Americans can accept. The French

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are putting forward this idea of a resolution, formulating this stuff

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about chemical weapons for a resolution at the UN. It will take a

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about chemical weapons for a lot of hammering out, but the basis

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is there, in the sense that both sides want to see chemical weapons

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collected up and destroyed. We could, for the first time, seeing

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Russia and America agreeing to a resolution being allowed through and

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the national trend would be to talk about reviving the Geneva peace

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process, which everybody agrees is the only way of settling this

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conflict. Everybody says there cannot be a military solution, there

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has to be a political one. If they cannot agree on these chemical

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weapons measures, the National -- natural progression would be to get

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a settlement under way again in Geneva or where ever. Thanks for

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joining us. Do you share that confidence and optimism, but this

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could be a way out for both President Obama, the Syrians and

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Russia? Who knows? It has to be a positive thing. The Russians have

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come along and said, we think we can take and do something with the

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chemical weapons. I think we have learned lessons from Iraq about

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intervening in civil wars and intervening in areas with a military

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force, it does not always work. We should be working with the United

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Nations and people across the world. The best we can hope for is to try

:22:26.:22:31.

to keep working to get diplomacy going. It sounds like good news. It

:22:31.:22:36.

is not bad news. Except the scepticism that it might not

:22:36.:22:40.

happen. It will, to some extent, focus on Britain's role and a gain

:22:40.:22:46.

on how David Cameron and Ed Miliband have dealt with this. First of all,

:22:47.:22:50.

the Prime Minister ruling out another vote on military action and

:22:50.:22:56.

Ed Miliband withdrawing support for what he saw was a march to war. I

:22:56.:23:00.

Ed Miliband withdrawing support for think Ed Miliband was right, we did

:23:00.:23:04.

not know enough. I think the Prime Minister came across as petulant.

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What he should have said, when we know more facts, we will talk about

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what we can do. The right way to do that is through a United Nations

:23:15.:23:19.

process and work with other countries. We are not the police of

:23:19.:23:24.

the world. What we can be is a force for the good when we are working

:23:24.:23:27.

with other people. I think Ed Miliband's position was correct.

:23:27.:23:33.

Would it make any difference? Is it the right time? Let's see what

:23:33.:23:38.

develops. This solution might not work, but what is the downside if it

:23:38.:23:45.

doesn't. If there was fresh evidence and circumstances change, they would

:23:45.:23:48.

look again at another vote and possibility of military action, what

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would your view be? I do like the idea of Britain being involved in

:23:54.:23:59.

military action. It will not solve things. -- I do not like. It will

:23:59.:24:07.

also kill and maim the people. It is finding a solution to the Syrian

:24:07.:24:11.

problem. The only way that will happen is by getting the major

:24:11.:24:15.

powers together and working it through politically.

:24:15.:24:20.

As we were saying earlier, Sir Robin Wales is the first directly elected

:24:20.:24:23.

mayor of the London Borough of Newham. He has been involved in the

:24:23.:24:30.

London 2012 Olympics. The borough has seen a great deal of

:24:30.:24:34.

regeneration, but there are still poor areas, suffering from

:24:34.:24:39.

overcrowding and deprivation. This has prompted the council to

:24:39.:24:43.

introduce mandatory landlord licensing, the first scheme of its

:24:43.:24:48.

kind in the country. Early morning in new in London, and

:24:48.:24:53.

three council officers are knocking on, although not kicking in, doors.

:24:53.:24:58.

It is not a courtesy call. Since February, the council have been

:24:58.:25:04.

enforcing the licensing of rented properties. The borough is full of

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ordinary houses, some of which have extraordinary numbers of occupants,

:25:08.:25:14.

whilst each room is unofficially rented as a flat. At first, there is

:25:14.:25:18.

little luck, but after a while someone opens up and we are allowed

:25:18.:25:24.

in. Actually, when we first arrived, despite some furious knocking and no

:25:24.:25:29.

one replied, and the entire group moved on down the street, I just

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happened to notice when I look back, people were peeking out of the

:25:34.:25:39.

window. Some of the occupants had looked out to see what was going on,

:25:40.:25:45.

so we all came back. Now we are in here, it is clear it is not being

:25:45.:25:51.

rented by just one family. Now we have come into the property and come

:25:51.:25:56.

to the top floor, we have locks on the outside of the doors. That

:25:56.:26:01.

indicates to us, that although the lady is saying and they are one

:26:01.:26:05.

family, they are living here with some friends staying, we would not

:26:05.:26:09.

normally have locks on doors. We need to investigate further. Police

:26:09.:26:16.

are in attendance, and why -- while many occupants who are paying very

:26:16.:26:22.

high rents are here significantly, some have overstayed their visas.

:26:22.:26:26.

But for legitimate residents, wide target them, why not rate the

:26:26.:26:32.

landlords? We need to get the evidence first of all to show the

:26:32.:26:36.

property is rented. This is what we are doing, gathering evidence,

:26:36.:26:40.

gathering statements and intelligence. We are making our own

:26:40.:26:43.

notes and taking our own photographs. Then we will go to see

:26:44.:26:50.

the landlord. So far, 110 cases have been brought against criminal

:26:50.:26:53.

landlords and the evidence gathering goes on. A different door, but the

:26:53.:26:58.

same story. We have access to another one. Just be careful of the

:26:58.:27:06.

carpet. The condition is not as good as the last one. And the last one

:27:06.:27:14.

was not great. The state of the house and the kitchen is astonishing

:27:14.:27:18.

in comparison to the rent charged. Just as it is in the next property.

:27:18.:27:24.

This is another one they think may have multiple occupancy, being

:27:24.:27:29.

unlicensed. You cannot help feeling a little bit sorry for the people.

:27:29.:27:35.

The landlord is making up to £50,000 a year from multiple rental on a

:27:35.:27:39.

property unlicensed, unsafe and unpleasant for such use. These marks

:27:39.:27:48.

are squashed bedbugs. In my hair, in my ears, it in my hair. 15 last

:27:49.:27:58.

night? Yes. It is no surprise the council are accusing in new of being

:27:58.:28:03.

a thing cover for border agency checks. But it is clear for now, the

:28:03.:28:09.

raids will go on. Why did you decide to do this? When

:28:09.:28:14.

we looked at the situation there has been a big expansion in the private

:28:15.:28:20.

sector rental market in you. You are twice as likely to get anti-social

:28:20.:28:24.

behaviour from a property that is rented. We had lots of complaints,

:28:24.:28:29.

rubbish in gardens, people behaving badly, people making noise. If you

:28:29.:28:34.

have lots of people in a house, they generate noise and it is awful. Then

:28:34.:28:40.

when we looked, people are being exploited. They are people who do

:28:40.:28:44.

not care. A third of the landlords are very good, a and about 25% are

:28:44.:28:55.

criminals. We are out to get the 25% of criminal landlords. We have no

:28:55.:28:57.

issue with landlords, it is the ones who are criminal putting too many

:28:57.:29:00.

people in a property. 15 people, typically. We have two people living

:29:00.:29:06.

in a walk in freezer. It is not good enough. They are shocking, some of

:29:06.:29:13.

the pictures and I am sure people think those squalid conditions are

:29:13.:29:16.

unacceptable. But there is obviously think those squalid conditions are

:29:16.:29:20.

demand out there. Report said you feel a bit sorry for the people

:29:20.:29:23.

living there, when you have your teams going in? We are going to

:29:23.:29:29.

drive these landlords out and have the properties improved, so they are

:29:29.:29:34.

better places for people to live. If we don't do this, it is £50 for a

:29:34.:29:39.

bed, typically. They are making a fortune? Of course they are. If we

:29:39.:29:45.

don't do anything, more people will do it. It is not the people we are

:29:45.:29:50.

after, it is the landlords we go after. But there may be people

:29:50.:29:56.

living illegally there? What we have found is, out of the 600 unlicensed

:29:56.:30:03.

properties we visited, one in five we made an arrest. We are paying for

:30:03.:30:09.

the police officers. It is costing us money. Residents are telling us

:30:09.:30:13.

they are sick and tired of living next to places who are bad. What you

:30:13.:30:19.

have seen is replicated in many properties. We are not going to put

:30:19.:30:23.

up with it. How long are you going to do this for? It is very

:30:23.:30:28.

expensive. How long will you continue to do this? Until we clear

:30:28.:30:34.

these bad landlords out. A good landlord, if you register, £150 for

:30:34.:30:38.

five years. Interestingly, across landlord, if you register, £150 for

:30:38.:30:44.

London and the rest of the country, people are looking at this. Who else

:30:44.:30:48.

is looking at this in London councils? We have been talking to

:30:48.:30:56.

Oxford, Blackpool and Liverpool. This is trailblazing. As they see

:30:56.:31:00.

the impact, other people will want to do it. We have the same problem

:31:00.:31:03.

in other parts of London in particular. You could argue that

:31:03.:31:07.

some of these dodgy landlords could go to neighbouring counties?

:31:07.:31:13.

Anecdotally, that is what we are hearing. Other councils will respond

:31:13.:31:17.

the same way. In the end it is about the neighbours who have been putting

:31:17.:31:20.

up with appalling problems from these places, and the people who are

:31:20.:31:25.

exploited. You have children living in a number of them. You see that,

:31:25.:31:35.

and it is not on. We cannot allow this. If we don't do anything, it

:31:35.:31:38.

will turn into a ghetto. What about the number of landlords

:31:38.:31:48.

that are signed up to the new licensing scheme? It is 25% of the

:31:48.:31:55.

landlords. It is cash in hand and they are not paying tax. It is being

:31:55.:32:01.

avoided by these people. There are criminals living in them. Many are

:32:01.:32:07.

avoided by these people. There are arrested for immigration but for

:32:07.:32:12.

other crimes as well. What about the legacy for 2012 for your area? You

:32:12.:32:16.

were in the spotlight and this is your dark side. You were trying to

:32:16.:32:22.

clear the issue up. Has the legacy been a good thing? It has created

:32:22.:32:29.

jobs and opportunities. We have got 5000 people into work last year. We

:32:29.:32:34.

think employment is important. On top of that, we have invested 40

:32:34.:32:42.

million in sport. Every child gets free tuition. What we wanted from

:32:42.:32:46.

million in sport. Every child gets the Olympics was inspiration and I

:32:46.:32:50.

think it has inspired our people. Last night we had a show for

:32:50.:32:59.

schoolchildren to come to. For us, it it was regeneration but

:32:59.:33:04.

inspiration as well. There are lots of good news stories, but we will

:33:05.:33:10.

not allow the bad news stories to continue either. Now, the weather's

:33:10.:33:14.

getting colder, the mornings are getting darker and the leaves are

:33:14.:33:17.

starting to turn. But that hasn't stopped Ed Miliband from planning a

:33:17.:33:20.

nice trip to the seaside. However, it's choppy waters ahead for the

:33:20.:33:24.

Labour leader who addressed the TUC conference in Bournemouth this

:33:24.:33:27.

morning. His most pressing challenge is to sort out Labour's relationship

:33:27.:33:31.

with the unions. It's all guns blazing between the two sides over

:33:31.:33:34.

proposed changes to Labour Party funding in the wake of the

:33:34.:33:37.

controversy over the selection of Labour's candidate in Falkirk. And

:33:37.:33:43.

fighting with the unions means Labour's finances looks likely to

:33:43.:33:46.

take a hit with both the GMB and Unison withdrawing some of their

:33:46.:33:52.

funding to the party. Meanwhile, voters still haven't warmed to Ed.

:33:52.:33:57.

The latest poll shows his net approval rating is at minus 31

:33:57.:34:01.

compared to just minus 15 for David Cameron. And that's all while things

:34:01.:34:07.

are looking rosier for the government, with George Osborne

:34:07.:34:09.

insisting the UK economy has turned a corner all thanks to their

:34:09.:34:18.

economic policy. I want a different relationship with individual trade

:34:18.:34:19.

union members as part of building a relationship with individual trade

:34:19.:34:25.

different Labour Party. Some people ask me, why do you think it is

:34:25.:34:29.

necessary to make these changes? Let me try and explain. We have 3

:34:29.:34:35.

million working men and women affiliated to our party, and I am

:34:35.:34:41.

proud of that. I am proud of that link. But here is the problem. So

:34:41.:34:47.

many of them, the vast majority of them, play no role in our local

:34:47.:34:55.

parties. They are affiliated in name only. That was not the vision of the

:34:55.:35:00.

founders of our party. That is not my vision and it is not your vision

:35:00.:35:03.

either. I want each and every my vision and it is not your vision

:35:03.:35:09.

affiliated member of the Labour Party to be a real part of the

:35:09.:35:16.

party. A real voice in our party based on an active choice to be part

:35:16.:35:24.

of the party. Well, joining me now from Bournemouth are two union

:35:24.:35:27.

delegates who were listening to Ed Miliband's speech - Maureen Le

:35:27.:35:30.

Marinel from Unison and Lisa Johnson from the GMB. Your response to the

:35:30.:35:41.

speech? I think he said some of the right things. Certainly, our members

:35:41.:35:52.

are not asking what the funding relationship is between ourselves

:35:52.:35:55.

and the Labour Party but what they are wanting to hear is what he is

:35:55.:36:00.

going to do about the economic crisis and how he is going to get

:36:00.:36:06.

education for our young people, jobs for our young people, how he is

:36:06.:36:10.

going to fight the Bedroom Tax which is forcing our families out of their

:36:10.:36:14.

homes. They are the important thing is that the members. Do you think he

:36:14.:36:19.

has picked the wrong time to have a fight? I do not think there is a

:36:19.:36:26.

fight in all honesty. I think Ed Miliband is saying that people

:36:26.:36:33.

should have a choice. Where Unison members are concerned, we have

:36:33.:36:40.

always had that choice. For us, and our members, what Ed Miliband is

:36:40.:36:44.

suggesting is no different to the way we have been operating for ten

:36:44.:36:53.

years. Was the GMB union rights to cut funding to the Labour Party? --

:36:53.:37:04.

right. What we have seen today from Ed Miliband is what we want to hear.

:37:04.:37:11.

We want to hear how to get people back to work and how people can pay

:37:11.:37:17.

the Bills. This is exactly what we need to talk about. I am not sure

:37:17.:37:23.

that our members in care homes and the dinner ladies want us to talk

:37:23.:37:30.

about an internal Labour Party issued when they are struggling to

:37:30.:37:34.

pay the Bills. Do you think this was the wrong time to bring this up? He

:37:34.:37:40.

was the one that tried to reform the relationship and used the Falkirk

:37:40.:37:47.

saga to act as a platform. That is exactly what I think. People are

:37:47.:37:55.

interested on policies that impact on their everyday lives. They are

:37:55.:38:00.

not interested in internal party workings. We're not saying we do not

:38:00.:38:05.

want change at all. Our general secretary said many times it was not

:38:05.:38:11.

working exactly as we wanted but it needs to be the right change and

:38:11.:38:17.

Labour need to start talking. Maureen, you are both members of the

:38:17.:38:22.

Labour Party, how many new members Do you think will join up to Labour

:38:22.:38:26.

if they have to do it as individual members? I think if members know

:38:26.:38:34.

that they have that choice then more people will join the Labour Party

:38:34.:38:36.

because they know that they have that choice. 300,000?Why not? Why

:38:36.:38:46.

not 300,000? It Ed Miliband is going to lead the Labour Party in the

:38:46.:38:49.

right way for the people of this country, doing all the economic

:38:49.:38:52.

things and getting them off the ground, that the public ones, and

:38:52.:38:58.

that the community needs, then I believe that the Labour Party is the

:38:58.:39:04.

party for the future. Thank you very much for joining us from sunny

:39:04.:39:09.

Bournemouth. That's the view from Bournemouth. Labour's Chuka Umanna

:39:09.:39:14.

joins me now. They are optimistic about all of these new members that

:39:14.:39:16.

will sign up. What other political about all of these new members that

:39:16.:39:25.

parties have turned down the membership declination? We have a

:39:25.:39:32.

crisis of politics across the Western world. The point is that

:39:32.:39:37.

this is not just an issue for the Labour Party. We are seeking to

:39:37.:39:47.

tackle this crisis and I found, in my own constituency, in many

:39:47.:39:52.

respects, people are more political than ever because of the adverse

:39:52.:39:56.

circumstances that they are living in, but they have never felt so

:39:56.:40:01.

distant from party politics. That represents a challenge for you in

:40:01.:40:05.

the media and for us. I think we have a head start over other

:40:05.:40:09.

political parties because we have a link to 3 million people who power

:40:09.:40:14.

British businesses and services. What we are trying to do through

:40:14.:40:18.

these reforms is making sure we have a better relationship with them.

:40:18.:40:26.

Secondly, we need to take big money out of politics and that is why this

:40:26.:40:28.

individual link, and having a funding to the Labour Party, is so

:40:28.:40:37.

important. Compare and contrast that to the Conservative party who've

:40:37.:40:41.

made no effort to transform politics whatsoever. They use this issue to

:40:41.:40:49.

denigrate hard-working trade union members. Since you brought it up,

:40:49.:40:57.

about taking the big money out of politics, there will be many voters

:40:57.:41:02.

who are saying it is brave to tackle this issue at this point. You have

:41:02.:41:07.

laid all your cards on the table and have picked a fight with union

:41:07.:41:11.

leaders, what concessions have you got for the Tories? It is not about

:41:11.:41:18.

picking a fight. Quite frankly, there have been no concessions from

:41:18.:41:24.

the Conservative party... They are in a position where they lose 25% of

:41:24.:41:35.

their funding. MPs in marginal seats will be thinking yikes! If we do not

:41:35.:41:42.

sort out our politics it does not matter what policies we come up

:41:42.:41:46.

with. That is why this is a priority. The principle of having a

:41:46.:41:51.

healthy democracy has got to come before big money. We have had a

:41:51.:41:56.

discussion about where we set a funding cap. The simple fact is that

:41:56.:42:01.

if your viewers would sue Google Conservative party, you will see

:42:01.:42:08.

that for the price of £50,000 a year, you can have a dinner with

:42:08.:42:14.

David Cameron. We think that is big money. I know that there you have

:42:14.:42:18.

David Cameron. We think that is big not achieved it. We will achieve!

:42:18.:42:23.

That is an issue for them. We are adjusting... You are going to

:42:24.:42:30.

bankrupt your party... No, we are not! Diane Abbott, your colleague,

:42:31.:42:37.

said she is not worried about it because the union leaders will come

:42:37.:42:42.

up with the money when election time comes. Is that your strategy? The

:42:42.:42:48.

money that the GMB is cutting will come back just before the election?

:42:48.:42:56.

I think you are missing the point as to why we are doing this. Jo, I am

:42:56.:43:01.

not going to deny that there will be a dent in the Labour Party's

:43:01.:43:06.

finances but the majority of our funding comes from small donations

:43:06.:43:11.

and individuals. The idea that the Labour Party is suddenly going to be

:43:11.:43:16.

bankrupt is not a picture that I recognise. The implication that

:43:16.:43:23.

ending affiliation with trade unions is that they will lose their

:43:23.:43:34.

leadership. The block vote, will that end? Lord Ray Collins is

:43:34.:43:41.

carrying out the review into the reforms and if we opt in, that will

:43:41.:43:47.

have implications for our roles but he is consulting with all of the

:43:47.:43:50.

stakeholders in the Labour Party to work out a reform package. I was

:43:50.:43:55.

talking about the need for a change to politics. If I come on this

:43:55.:43:59.

programme and dictate everything that is going to happen, without us

:43:59.:44:03.

having a consultation with the members, it makes a mockery of

:44:03.:44:09.

everything. Was this the right time to do this because you could argue

:44:09.:44:14.

that Ed Miliband has been a leader for three years and there has been

:44:14.:44:18.

no mention of this dramatic reform or changing relationship? Falkirk

:44:18.:44:25.

happens and then there is a revolution. Perhaps it was not done

:44:25.:44:31.

in the best way but he stood up and said he thought it was wrong before

:44:31.:44:37.

anyone else was doing it. He said, we need to get more working people

:44:37.:44:41.

into the Labour Party. The Labour Party desperately needs those

:44:41.:44:46.

people. Do you want it to happen? Yes. We will see a big increase in

:44:46.:44:51.

membership and we will see hundreds Yes. We will see a big increase in

:44:51.:44:56.

of people knocking on doors during the next election. I am not bothered

:44:56.:45:00.

about the money. He has done the right thing and we have a leader who

:45:00.:45:05.

does the right thing. I have been in the Labour Party for more years than

:45:05.:45:09.

I care to mention. I go back to 1970, and if I had a pound for every

:45:09.:45:15.

time that you said there was a battle between Labour and the trade

:45:15.:45:21.

unions, we will get people who work. We will get people who work on lower

:45:21.:45:27.

incomes coming in and influencing the Labour Party. It is good for

:45:27.:45:30.

politics and is the right thing to do. Let's talk about what the Tories

:45:30.:45:43.

will do with their big donations. Yesterday Diane Abbott said people

:45:44.:45:47.

in the Labour Party are obsessed that he is not labelled Red Ed. Is

:45:47.:45:59.

that true? I don't agree with that. I don't believe we are obsessed with

:45:59.:46:07.

that. What we are obsessed with is putting forward a positive vision on

:46:07.:46:12.

how we can build a fairer, more equal and democratic and more

:46:12.:46:15.

prosperous Britain. That is why you have seen exploitative use of zero

:46:15.:46:25.

hours contract. Do you not agree with zero hours contracts? You think

:46:25.:46:29.

they are applicable in some instances? Ed Miliband said you

:46:29.:46:34.

cannot force people to work. Those are important. And where possible we

:46:35.:46:44.

should have permanent contracts. For a music programme, we have to give

:46:44.:46:52.

people a contract for a term. What I have said as a result of what it has

:46:52.:46:57.

done, I have instigated a review of all the zero hours contract in the

:46:57.:47:02.

council, we have 112 of them. I would rather have people working on

:47:02.:47:07.

proper contracts. He has not said no to zero contracts, he has said about

:47:07.:47:13.

the abuse of them. Exploitation. That is what we are trying to outlaw

:47:13.:47:24.

them. In a year, let's see how many new members there are to the Labour

:47:24.:47:30.

Party. Bold, radical change is what we need. And 300,000 new members.

:47:30.:47:41.

Today is an important day on a two square miles rock off the coast of

:47:41.:47:46.

Spain. I'm talking about Gibraltar which is celebrating National Jibril

:47:46.:47:52.

today, marking the 19th anniversary of the southern tree agreement.

:47:52.:47:59.

After authorities dropped 74 concrete blocks into the bay to

:47:59.:48:04.

build what they say is an artificial reef to encourage conservation,

:48:04.:48:14.

there has been controversy. Madrid have retaliated by increasing border

:48:14.:48:18.

checks between Spain and Gibraltar. I spoke to the Chief Minister of

:48:18.:48:23.

Gibraltar and I asked him what the day would involve. Today we are

:48:23.:48:29.

celebrating the first expression of our free will in Gibraltar, which

:48:29.:48:32.

celebrating the first expression of was on the 10th of September 1967,

:48:32.:48:38.

first referendum. 99% of people voted to remain British and we are

:48:38.:48:43.

remembering that expression of free will by dressing up in red and

:48:43.:48:47.

white. The main streets and squares are a swathe of red and white.

:48:47.:48:53.

Everybody is enjoying the day as a National Carnival and celebration.

:48:53.:48:57.

Sounds wonderful, will you get a message from the Prime Minister,

:48:57.:49:02.

David Cameron? We have had a message from the Prime Minister delivered

:49:02.:49:11.

today, where he has been clear and loud in his support for the people

:49:11.:49:15.

of Gibraltar and our right to determine our political future for

:49:15.:49:19.

ourselves. In particular, to choose to remain British. This comes after

:49:19.:49:27.

a summer of tension between Spain, Gibraltar and Great Britain, if you

:49:27.:49:29.

like. What is this most recent row Gibraltar and Great Britain, if you

:49:29.:49:35.

with Spain really like? It has got to be about more than just the

:49:35.:49:40.

artificial reef built by Gibraltar? You are right, in the same way it is

:49:40.:49:47.

not about why there are officers shooting at a jet skier which they

:49:47.:49:54.

did two weeks before the reef was set up. It is all about Spain

:49:54.:50:00.

wanting to take the sovereignty of Gibraltar. Spain were saying I wish

:50:00.:50:04.

to persuade the people of Gibraltar they should stop being British and

:50:04.:50:08.

become Spanish. That is one way of dealing with the matter. Spain says

:50:08.:50:13.

the wishes of the people of Gibraltar are irrelevant and we

:50:13.:50:18.

should be turned into a Spanish territory, because there are some

:50:18.:50:23.

resolutions of the United Nations from the 1960s which say this and

:50:23.:50:30.

the treaty should be undone. That is the background issue.

:50:30.:50:33.

Geographically, you are so close to Spain, you could not be any closer.

:50:33.:50:38.

If relations are that bad between yourselves, the Spanish and Great

:50:38.:50:42.

Britain, it is not good for you and the people of Gibraltar. We do not

:50:42.:50:47.

wish for there to be bad relations between Spain and Gibraltar. We

:50:47.:50:51.

could boast of a great relationship with Spain. Our most important

:50:51.:50:57.

relationship in the world is that with the United Kingdom. And the

:50:57.:51:03.

second important relationships are that with Spain and Morocco. We have

:51:03.:51:11.

a fluid communication with the municipality. But unfortunately the

:51:11.:51:14.

Spanish government does not want to engage in direct contact with the

:51:14.:51:18.

government of Gibraltar and the forum that has been set up for that

:51:18.:51:21.

purpose. Hopefully the formula William Hague has proposed a leaders

:51:21.:51:34.

to rekindle some contract with Madrid. -- contact. You have

:51:34.:51:41.

described Spain as acting like North Korea over the latest tensions. That

:51:41.:51:54.

will not help the matter will it? I was quoting the Spanish foreign

:51:54.:51:56.

minister in an interview on the 4th of August. An interview from which

:51:56.:52:04.

he has resile in great measure now. But in that interview, the way he

:52:04.:52:07.

expressed issues was a kin to that But in that interview, the way he

:52:07.:52:11.

you might expect from the North Korean regime. A complete

:52:11.:52:15.

overreaction and an attack on the people of Gibraltar. Are you

:52:15.:52:20.

entirely blameless in the tensions that have built up in recent weeks?

:52:20.:52:28.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I am a politician, and

:52:28.:52:32.

politicians in this area have tried to take an axe to human relations

:52:32.:52:36.

because of the way they deal with things. I would not be the first one

:52:36.:52:41.

to say I am entirely blameless in everything. Even though every time

:52:41.:52:44.

we have acted we have acted reasonably, responsibly to try to

:52:44.:52:52.

deflect tensions. But I let others judge me, not myself. We'll

:52:52.:52:58.

relations improve with Spain, or do you think it could deteriorate

:52:58.:53:03.

further? The will of the people of Gibraltar prevails. The relationship

:53:03.:53:09.

will only improve, and the best possible relationship between the

:53:09.:53:11.

people of Gibraltar and the people possible relationship between the

:53:11.:53:14.

of Spain, and the two governments, we think it is important for the

:53:14.:53:20.

people. In particular, the people of the region. But there is no region

:53:20.:53:27.

-- reason for people in Madrid to read in the newspapers that there is

:53:27.:53:31.

friction between Gibraltar and Spain. Gibraltar is an opportunity

:53:31.:53:39.

to showcase how well Anglo Spanish relations can go and take the

:53:39.:53:43.

benefits of Gibraltar and the economic opportunities we create and

:53:43.:53:48.

four Gibraltar to enjoy the touristic opportunities the region

:53:48.:53:52.

around us provides. That is what I would like to see is concentrating

:53:52.:53:59.

on. Enjoy the day.Thank you very much, indeed.

:53:59.:54:03.

I am joined by Ian Paisley, and London correspondent for the Spanish

:54:03.:54:11.

nationalist -- national newspaper, ABC. What do the Spanish press make

:54:11.:54:20.

of the Gibraltar story? It made for an August vacuum story to fill our

:54:20.:54:26.

pages and covers. It is a big story. It comes and goes. The main elements

:54:26.:54:32.

of the story are well-known. It is a British colony, it will probably

:54:33.:54:38.

always remain a British colony. But other elements were played out

:54:38.:54:41.

through the summer that are different to previous incidents. So

:54:41.:54:46.

there was a story and people had feelings about this story. And some

:54:46.:54:52.

of the more social and economical elements of the story involving

:54:52.:54:56.

fishermen. People get quite emotional about fishing rights. What

:54:56.:54:59.

have the Spanish made about fishing rights, telling the Spanish

:54:59.:55:07.

ambassador in London to pack his sombrero, straw donkey and sangria

:55:07.:55:15.

and go? I have not spoken to the ambassador, he does not wear a

:55:15.:55:21.

sombrero, and does not have a donkey. But he does like a drink

:55:21.:55:30.

once in a while. British people do drink tonnes of sangria. Do you

:55:30.:55:40.

regret your choice of words? I don't think the ambassador has had a

:55:40.:55:44.

bypass operation of humour. It is a very tense situation, was it

:55:44.:55:51.

appropriate to use that humour. Others say it was insulting to refer

:55:51.:55:55.

so personally to the Spanish ambassador and Spain in that way.

:55:55.:56:01.

Did it help? We met with the Minister prior to this question Time

:56:01.:56:06.

and the feelings in that group were very strong. They wanted to summon

:56:06.:56:13.

ambassador in and tell him that this was technically wrong with what was

:56:13.:56:20.

happening in Gibraltar. Is that what you think? That is why I thought

:56:20.:56:26.

about putting humour in this and deflect some of the feelings but

:56:26.:56:33.

make the point. I hope tension does go down. The Prime Minister needs a

:56:33.:56:41.

good relationship with Spain, Spain needs a good relationship with him.

:56:41.:56:46.

Are the Spanish passionate about getting Gibraltar back? It goes to

:56:47.:56:53.

the national feelings. But it is not just a strategic issue in the minds

:56:53.:56:58.

of the people. Most people would agree with the saying, Spanish

:56:58.:57:01.

Gibraltar. But for the government, agree with the saying, Spanish

:57:01.:57:07.

it is different. Gibraltar is a tax haven. Spain has its own tax haven

:57:08.:57:13.

list which includes Gibraltar. It has a problem with tobacco

:57:14.:57:23.

smuggling. It was once a beautiful, natural bay, now filled with an

:57:23.:57:28.

ugly, industrial landscape. The Minister said it, they should be on

:57:28.:57:35.

good terms and there would be a lot of potential for developing a

:57:35.:57:38.

beautiful area on both sides of the border, but it is not happening. The

:57:38.:57:44.

people who live on this rock, families who stay there. They have

:57:44.:57:49.

said they British and want to remain British. That is what needs to be

:57:49.:57:53.

respected. It may be easy to walk away from it, but it cannot be

:57:53.:57:59.

done, these people have rights. Should the government be tougher

:57:59.:58:01.

with the Spanish government? I think they should. What would you do? I

:58:01.:58:10.

cannot imagine any situation where people who want to be part of

:58:11.:58:14.

Britain, we would walk away from them. But to compare them to North

:58:14.:58:18.

Korea however, if there are issues them. But to compare them to North

:58:18.:58:22.

they should be dealt with. It suits politicians to make a fuss about it.

:58:22.:58:29.

And it filled the newspapers in Spain over August. I will have to

:58:29.:58:33.

say goodbye to both of you. Just before we go, we can find out the

:58:33.:58:38.

answer to our quiz. Which leader's wife does David Beckham have a crush

:58:38.:58:43.

on, according to one of his former team-mates? Which one? I would guess

:58:43.:58:53.

Cherie Blair. You are right. That is all for today. Thanks to our guests.

:58:53.:58:58.

The 1pm news is starting on BBC One now. We will be back at 11:30am

:58:58.:59:00.

tomorrow.

:59:00.:59:01.

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