11/10/2013 Daily Politics


11/10/2013

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. With Amol Rajan, editor of the Independent and the latest on the Snowden intelligence leaks.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 11/10/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics. On the show today:

:00:35.:00:41.

Has the Guardian's coverage of Edward Snowden's intelligence leaks

:00:41.:00:43.

put British national security at risk? David Cameron says yes. So

:00:43.:00:50.

does Nick Clegg. But Vince Cable says the paper has "done

:00:50.:00:54.

considerable public service". We'll debate the issue. Plaid Cymru kicks

:00:54.:00:59.

off its autumn party conference in Aberystwyth. I'll be talking live to

:00:59.:01:05.

party leader Leanne Wood. Could global warming do more to help

:01:05.:01:10.

humans than harm them? The Danish environmentalist Bjorn Lomborg will

:01:10.:01:19.

be here to discuss his theory. And we report from Strasbourg on the

:01:19.:01:21.

European Parliament vote to slap bigger health warnings on cigarette

:01:21.:01:31.

packets and help stub out smoking. All that in the next hour and with

:01:31.:01:35.

us the editor of the Independent, Amol Rajan. As well as editing a

:01:35.:01:42.

national newspaper he's found time to write a book about history's

:01:42.:01:45.

greatest spin bowlers and this week told readers of the Evening Standard

:01:45.:01:49.

how hard it is to find a good reggae night in London. Which you have

:01:49.:01:59.

read? Not yet. But I will. Impossible. Of course he never

:01:59.:02:02.

consulted me. But let's start with the latest on the attempts by the

:02:02.:02:05.

three main parties in Westminster to agree a new form of regulation for

:02:05.:02:09.

the press. Ross Hawkins is keeping an eye on developments. Ross, who's

:02:09.:02:12.

involved in this and are they likely to reach an agreement today? I have

:02:12.:02:18.

spent all morning for you, trying to look over these roof tops to try and

:02:18.:02:23.

see white smoke arising as the thrilling conclusion of the cross

:02:23.:02:27.

party talks comes. I have to tell you this is a smoke-free view so

:02:27.:02:33.

far. What is happening, Harriet Harman, the Culture Secretary and

:02:34.:02:40.

Lord Wallace are having a debate about a small part of a bigger

:02:40.:02:46.

debate. They agreed a plan for regulating the press in March and

:02:46.:02:57.

agreed to re-open a few bits of that. But whether they agree or not,

:02:57.:03:03.

they're not going to make a great many of the newspapers happy,

:03:03.:03:06.

because while the issues are important to them, they won't do

:03:06.:03:12.

things about the issues like the capacity of Lords, ladies and MPs

:03:12.:03:15.

there to change the system on their own in the future. Thank you. Keep

:03:15.:03:23.

up there, I'm sure. Look, there is white smoke! Just joking! It's not

:03:23.:03:30.

even April Fool! Where is The Independent on this, your paper

:03:30.:03:34.

seems to be all over the place. No, we stood with The Guardian and the

:03:34.:03:39.

financial times and were interested to hear what Parliament produced.

:03:39.:03:46.

I'm yet to be convinced of the need for statutory underpinning. So you

:03:46.:03:52.

have changed, new editor, new ideas. Not this. We have a position which I

:03:52.:03:56.

have stuck to. We want the two parties to come together. The

:03:56.:04:01.

difference between the two parties, the press and groups like the May

:04:01.:04:08.

and the -- Mail and The Telegraph is not that huge. It does sound like

:04:08.:04:13.

The Independent. I understand you're not keen on the newspaper industry's

:04:13.:04:18.

proposals and not keen on the Government's proposals. We are

:04:18.:04:19.

looking. There is something going on Government's proposals. We are

:04:19.:04:23.

in Parliament today and we will see whether it is effective. I don't

:04:23.:04:28.

think it will satisfy several newspaper groups. There is a

:04:28.:04:31.

question as to whether or not whatever Parliament produces, if it

:04:31.:04:34.

doesn't satisfy the newspaper group, whether it makes the newspaper

:04:35.:04:39.

industry lack the trust of the public even more. We will look at

:04:39.:04:43.

the proposals and see whether they work. Will you sign up in the end,

:04:43.:04:49.

if the Government brings this into law? We will have a look before we

:04:49.:04:54.

sign up. Even will have a look. I'm not fog o' -- going to say here

:04:54.:05:00.

whether we will sign up. Why not. We will look at what is put forward.

:05:00.:05:05.

But the principle of whether newspapers should be regulated by

:05:05.:05:09.

statute is quite an important, you don't need to look at that, that is

:05:09.:05:12.

the line the Government wants to go. Do you accept that principle? We

:05:12.:05:17.

have said that we think that it ought to be accepted that what

:05:17.:05:21.

Parliament puts forward after a judge-led inquiry is something that

:05:21.:05:26.

we sign up to. Having said that... The other newspapers have changed

:05:26.:05:29.

their positions too. You will have to ask them. We will have to look at

:05:29.:05:33.

what comes out today and what we are in favour of is Parliament and the

:05:33.:05:36.

newspaper groups coming together to find common ground. What we want is

:05:36.:05:40.

for newspapers to have more trust from the public. All of this is a

:05:40.:05:45.

function of the weakness of newspapers, not of their strength.

:05:45.:05:50.

There is a feeling that we are as an industry on our knees, there is a

:05:50.:05:54.

feeling that we are facing huge commercial pressures and there is a

:05:54.:05:59.

feeling this may curtail our ability to do what we do best. So we want a

:05:59.:06:07.

negotiated position to allow us to continue causing mischief. Should a

:06:07.:06:13.

newspaper print a story, even if it might jeopardise national security?

:06:13.:06:16.

The Guardian has already published leaks by the former US intelligence

:06:16.:06:19.

contractor Edward Snowden and says it will print more revelations from

:06:19.:06:22.

him. The paper's editor Alan Rusbridger said they were right to

:06:22.:06:25.

publish the files and have helped to prompt a necessary and overdue

:06:25.:06:28.

debate. The Guardian says more than 20 newspaper editors from a dozen

:06:28.:06:32.

countries support its decision. But there's been fierce criticism of the

:06:32.:06:36.

Guardian. Earlier this week the director general of MI5, Andrew

:06:36.:06:39.

Parker, warned it "causes enormous damage to make public the reach and

:06:39.:06:46.

limits of GCHQ techniques". And the former head of GCHQ, Sir David

:06:46.:06:49.

Omand, said leaking surveillance programme details have been the most

:06:49.:06:52.

catastrophic loss to British intelligence ever - worse than

:06:52.:06:54.

traitors Philby, Burgess and McClean. Yesterday, Nick Clegg said

:06:54.:07:03.

that some of the information published by the Guardian would have

:07:03.:07:07.

gone over the heads of its readers but would have been immensely

:07:07.:07:10.

interesting to people who want to harm the UK. Meanwhile David Cameron

:07:10.:07:17.

had this to say. When you get newspapers who get hold of vast

:07:17.:07:22.

amounts of data and information that is effectively stolen information

:07:22.:07:27.

and they think it is OK to reveal this, I think they have got to think

:07:27.:07:31.

about their responsibilities and are they helping to keep our country

:07:31.:07:37.

safe? But not everyone in the Cabinet is critical of the Guardian.

:07:37.:07:40.

Here's what Business Secretary Vince Cable had to say on the Today

:07:40.:07:43.

programme this morning. I think The Guardian has done a considerable

:07:43.:07:48.

public service. Edward Snowdon's contribution is two fold. One is a

:07:48.:07:52.

positive one, the other is more worrying that a large amount of

:07:52.:07:59.

general yubly -- jerch Euanly -- genuinely important material has

:07:59.:08:03.

been passed across. The conclusion that Nick Clegg came to it we need

:08:03.:08:07.

to have proper political oversight of the intelligence services and

:08:07.:08:13.

arguably we haven't until now. With us now is Rachel Robinson from the

:08:13.:08:16.

human rights campaigning group Liberty and we're also joined by the

:08:16.:08:19.

writer and commentator Douglas Murray, who earlier this week wrote

:08:19.:08:22.

an article headlined: "Why all this country's enemies will be grateful

:08:22.:08:25.

for the schoolboy vanity of the Guardian". Welcome to you both.

:08:25.:08:34.

Vince Cable said the Guardian sup -- had done a public service. What

:08:34.:08:39.

tuning of that -- what do you think of that. Well he thinks it is

:08:39.:08:43.

liberal to support whistle-blowing, but he recognises there is a

:08:43.:08:47.

national security problem. It is extraordinary that a member of a

:08:47.:08:51.

government can in any way condone what has been, as the intelligence

:08:51.:08:55.

chiefs have said, a catastrophic gift to this country's enemies. What

:08:55.:09:00.

do you say to that? What we have to remember, of course, like MI5 have

:09:00.:09:07.

responsibilities, whistle-blowers and newspapers have ethical

:09:07.:09:10.

responsibilities. In our view, all the information that has been

:09:10.:09:15.

published today has in no way compromised national security. How

:09:15.:09:20.

do you know? As far as we can see, the information has been published

:09:20.:09:29.

carefully. David Omand says is it is the most catastrophic loss of

:09:29.:09:35.

British intelligence ever. All we can say is we don't know what

:09:35.:09:39.

information will be disclosed in the future. But as far as we can see,

:09:39.:09:43.

there has been a very careful and considered approach. Of course it

:09:43.:09:47.

would be irresponsible to release huge amounts of information. But

:09:47.:09:52.

they have released huge amounts and it is shown by publishing it it has

:09:52.:09:58.

not just shown how we are under surveillance, but showed those who

:09:58.:10:07.

would destroy us how the agencies gather this information. This is

:10:07.:10:11.

vital information. We don't consider that anything that has been

:10:11.:10:16.

released. But you don't know. Is of that nature. Essentially what has

:10:16.:10:22.

happened here is that a public debate has been promoted to have the

:10:22.:10:30.

chief of MI5 say this is essentially treacherous act to say if you're not

:10:30.:10:37.

with us, you're against us is deeply misleading. We needed a debate about

:10:37.:10:45.

the manner of surveillance. We are worried that we, the ordinary

:10:45.:10:49.

people, could be collateral damage. Yes, there is a public concern about

:10:49.:10:53.

the way they go about their business. There are all sorts of

:10:53.:10:57.

checks and balances in place, including Parliamentary oversight to

:10:57.:11:01.

check that. But the discussion has come so far on to the issue I of

:11:01.:11:06.

what has been published by the Guardian. What has been ignored is

:11:06.:11:09.

that the tens of thousands of files Guardian. What has been ignored is

:11:09.:11:14.

which the Guardian has had access to, which it has sent around the

:11:14.:11:21.

world with glee and a frivolity which is astonishing. The so-called

:11:21.:11:27.

reporter, his boyfriend had his flights paid for by The Guardian and

:11:27.:11:36.

the boyfriend of a journalist from the Guardian was travelling with

:11:36.:11:39.

thousands of files on his person. If anyone thinks these entire files are

:11:39.:11:44.

not in the possession of Chinese Communist Party at not in the

:11:44.:11:48.

possession of the Russian Security Service, they are naive. I mean, the

:11:48.:11:54.

first thing that was said that look there is oversight of the Security

:11:54.:11:58.

Services and that is sufficient, that is worrying. That is not what

:11:58.:12:05.

he is saying. He said there are 58,000 secret documents which Edward

:12:05.:12:08.

Snowdon and his people were going around the world, The Guardian had,

:12:08.:12:13.

they have been spread all over the place and the Russians and the

:12:13.:12:16.

Chinese must have access to that. They will have broken into their

:12:16.:12:21.

computers that is sure lay threat? As far as we are aware, things that

:12:21.:12:29.

are... But you don't know what they have in Beijing or Moscow. Your not

:12:29.:12:36.

intelligence experts. You have no idea about the capabilities of

:12:36.:12:42.

Moscow and Beijing to get access to 58,000 secret documents. No, we

:12:42.:12:47.

don't. What we are in a position to talk about is the constitutional

:12:47.:12:52.

balance and scrutiny of the Security Services and about ethical

:12:52.:12:58.

journalism. This isn't journalism. Are you happy for editors of

:12:59.:13:02.

newspapers to be making decisions about national security. Do you

:13:02.:13:05.

think they're qualified, do you think they have the experience, the

:13:06.:13:11.

knowledge and judgment to make decisions abo sophisticated

:13:11.:13:17.

intelligence? This is not of course it is not a concerns that have been

:13:17.:13:23.

expressed about on what basis journalists have the right to make

:13:23.:13:29.

the decision. But let's not forget journalism, one of the core

:13:29.:13:33.

functions is to hold the powerful to account. You don't need to tell me

:13:33.:13:40.

that. That is his business. I would defend to the death Alan Rusbridger.

:13:40.:13:44.

Would you have published it? You're talking about stuff we don't know.

:13:44.:13:48.

We don't know what the Guardian redacted and what advice they got

:13:48.:13:52.

from the Government and what terrorists might do with the

:13:52.:13:57.

information. That would mean erring on the side of caution. I used to

:13:57.:14:02.

work in the Foreign Office. They are very hard-working and effective

:14:02.:14:06.

people who exist on the basis of a network of trust and require some

:14:06.:14:13.

secrecy. I don't believe in making their jobs harder. If there is

:14:13.:14:16.

anything we can do, the problem they have is all the victories they chalk

:14:16.:14:25.

up and the successes we don't know about. There is an ill lis twiegs

:14:25.:14:31.

journalists and activist. The Guardian has tried to put our

:14:31.:14:35.

national security at risk by publishing documents by holding on

:14:35.:14:40.

to document and if anyone needed any demonstration of this change that

:14:40.:14:45.

has happened, you can see it from what Glenn green walled, the

:14:45.:14:50.

so-called journalist said when his partser in was detained. He said he

:14:50.:14:56.

would now, because of what happened, he would publish more and he said I

:14:56.:15:00.

have secrets op the intelligence services that Britain will regret

:15:00.:15:04.

doing this. That is not the language of a journalists. I think later he

:15:04.:15:07.

said he was speaking in anger. By of a journalists. I think later he

:15:07.:15:24.

the Security service picking this up? Why was this information is

:15:24.:15:33.

allowed, why did it ever get to this in the first place? There is no way

:15:33.:15:39.

we can know if this is as serious as they complain, claim. -- as serious

:15:39.:15:52.

as they claim. There is a perfectly sensible discussion about a number

:15:52.:15:57.

of people, particularly contractors, who have access to the kind of

:15:57.:16:01.

information to Snowden did. Is it still a secret then? There is a

:16:01.:16:06.

debate about that. What it really comes down to is the decision by the

:16:06.:16:12.

Guardian about what and what should not be in the public domain. We used

:16:12.:16:16.

to say, who guards the Guardian? That is more widget a night than

:16:16.:16:26.

ever to ask. -- more illegitimate. Without Snowden's role in this we

:16:27.:16:31.

would not be having this debate. What was happening would not have

:16:31.:16:36.

become apparent and we would not be having a legitimate debate. So you

:16:36.:16:39.

think it is a good thing that Mr Snowden, now in the hands of Mr

:16:40.:16:46.

Putin, I suggest you would not survive in Russia, I do think it is

:16:46.:16:52.

a good thing that he has 58,000 documents of British secrets? What I

:16:52.:16:59.

said was without his actions, without the Guardian's actions, we

:16:59.:17:03.

would not be having a discussion of huge significance. We think that

:17:03.:17:08.

Snowden's actions were brave and we think he has done a public service

:17:08.:17:11.

and that the Guardian has done a public service. So you are not at

:17:11.:17:15.

all worried that this American citizen, who still 58,000 documents

:17:15.:17:22.

of British national secrets, is now in the hands of the Kremlin, that

:17:22.:17:24.

does not worry you add or? That is a in the hands of the Kremlin, that

:17:24.:17:36.

separate issue. What we are talking about is... Is it a good thing he

:17:36.:17:42.

has got these documents? It is good that this has come to light. We

:17:42.:17:49.

would not know the extent of the surveillance on us if Mr Snowden had

:17:49.:17:54.

not done what he has done. Reed-mac we would. Anyone who knows how

:17:54.:18:00.

electronic data surveillance and gathering occurrence would have a

:18:00.:18:03.

decent idea. Guardian supporters are talking about this as if it is a

:18:03.:18:08.

decent idea. Guardian supporters are debating game. They seem to think it

:18:08.:18:13.

is purely a debate about the liberal intelligentsia in London. It is

:18:13.:18:20.

about the commonest party of China, or Al-Shabab, or the enemies of this

:18:20.:18:28.

country reads these documents. -- the Communist Party of China.

:18:28.:18:35.

The party conference season may be over for the Westminster parties but

:18:35.:18:39.

there is more to come. The SNP holds its conference next week in Perth

:18:39.:18:41.

there is more to come. The SNP holds and today, Plaid Cymru are meeting

:18:41.:18:46.

in Aberystwyth. In a moment I will speak to Leanne Wood, but first,

:18:46.:18:50.

James Williams on the challenges facing the Welsh nationalist party.

:18:50.:18:56.

Aberystwyth, a popular seaside resort and the most popular place to

:18:56.:19:02.

gain the insight into the Welsh psyche. Those are the words of Mike

:19:02.:19:10.

Parker, riding 20 years ago. Gathering here this weekend for its

:19:10.:19:16.

national conference, Plaid Cymru is not here to soul search. They did

:19:16.:19:20.

that after their last election results. They fell from being the

:19:20.:19:24.

second biggest party and junior coalition partners to third behind

:19:24.:19:29.

the Tories. They have reflected on that and are here to celebrate as a

:19:29.:19:34.

party who feels it is on the up. That is due in no small part to a

:19:34.:19:40.

thumping victory this summer. Plaid Cymru have shown that they remember

:19:40.:19:44.

how to campaign and that will give the party a boost of confidence.

:19:44.:19:48.

There are major strategic challenges for the party and four Leanne Wood

:19:48.:19:55.

which remain to be addressed. The new leader of Plaid Cymru is Leanne

:19:55.:20:02.

Wood. That was 18 months ago and since then, the committed socialist

:20:02.:20:07.

has prioritised the economy. Do they offer a credible outturn out of --

:20:07.:20:13.

alternative at a time of austerity? We were the party that held office

:20:13.:20:18.

before the worst recession in 80 years and we did well to put in

:20:18.:20:25.

place policies which Labour has taken forward and they have not

:20:25.:20:28.

ditched any of our economic policies. We can demonstrate that we

:20:28.:20:35.

are competent in dealing with an economic presses. Perceived by some

:20:35.:20:38.

as a party for only Welsh speakers, Plaid Cymru's progress has been slow

:20:38.:20:44.

so electing Leanne Wood, the first non-fluent Welsh speaker to lead the

:20:44.:20:50.

party, was seen as an address to the problem. There are other concerns,

:20:50.:20:55.

though. Plaid Cymru's unique selling point was that it was the party that

:20:55.:21:01.

stood up for Wales and was constitutionally concerned. We now

:21:01.:21:09.

have Carwyn Jones looking at powers for a Federal UK, conservatives

:21:09.:21:12.

looking at the devolution of broadcasting, the Lib Dems showing

:21:12.:21:22.

Federalist credentials. Everyone is crowding in on Plaid Cymru

:21:22.:21:27.

territory. They want to stand alone in Wales, the 2016 Assembly

:21:27.:21:31.

elections. They will need a distinct message otherwise it will be

:21:31.:21:34.

difficult for them to expand beyond these traditional strongholds.

:21:35.:21:41.

Leanne Wood joins us now from Aberystwyth. Welcome back to the

:21:41.:21:46.

Daily Politics. You have been leader of Plaid Cymru for two years. What

:21:46.:21:52.

have you achieved? We have achieved quite a lot under my leadership I

:21:52.:21:56.

would say. We have come to Aberystwyth this weekend on the back

:21:56.:21:59.

of a very successful by-election victory this summer on in is known

:21:59.:22:15.

-- Inis Mon and Caerphilly. We are upbeat and looking forward to what

:22:15.:22:19.

promises to be an enjoyable conference. Why is your party losing

:22:19.:22:24.

membership if you are on the move? Our party gained new members last

:22:24.:22:33.

year. We are up to 23% on our membership. You are losing overall.

:22:33.:22:38.

There are challenges for all parties of growing membership, we would love

:22:38.:22:41.

more members, but we are actually growing and new members joined the

:22:41.:22:46.

party after the Inis Mon by-election and many of those members were young

:22:46.:22:48.

people. We need young people to be and many of those members were young

:22:48.:22:53.

involved in politics and many are disillusioned at the moment with the

:22:54.:22:58.

mainstream political parties. What is your main focus at the

:22:58.:23:02.

conference? Is it the general election in 2015 or the Welsh

:23:02.:23:05.

conference? Is it the general assembly elections in 2016? We are

:23:05.:23:13.

at a slightly different place in the electoral cycle to the other parties

:23:13.:23:19.

in that they are focusing Army 2020 Newco general election. Ours is the

:23:19.:23:25.

2016 National Assembly election, where we tend to put forward a

:23:25.:23:28.

programme of government and hopefully people will back that and

:23:28.:23:32.

programme of government and return a Plaid Cymru government. I

:23:32.:23:33.

hope to be Plaid Cymru's First return a Plaid Cymru government. I

:23:33.:23:37.

Minister in that government after 2016. You have only got 11 out of 60

:23:37.:23:44.

seats, you have a long way to go. There is nothing I have seen in the

:23:45.:23:52.

state of Welsh politics which suggests there is any thrust behind

:23:52.:23:56.

you to form a government after 2016. It sounds that you have written of

:23:56.:24:02.

Westminster. I would suggest you look at the results of the

:24:02.:24:07.

by-election. There was a huge swing towards Plaid Cymru. There was

:24:07.:24:11.

indeed, but you know as well as I do that by-elections hardly ever tell

:24:11.:24:21.

you anything. Yes, you may be right, but it gives us hope that we can

:24:21.:24:25.

replicate that success throughout the rest of Wales. What we did on

:24:25.:24:30.

Inis Mon, we put forward a clear message to people on the economy and

:24:30.:24:33.

the need for jobs and we offered some hope for the future of young

:24:33.:24:39.

people on that island. I think we can tell that message in other parts

:24:39.:24:43.

of Wales as well. It is about building of the Welsh economy,

:24:43.:24:45.

of Wales as well. It is about building up Welsh economies, and

:24:45.:24:49.

confidence in people, so that we can stand more on our own two feet. That

:24:49.:24:53.

is something that delegates here this weekend will be talking about

:24:53.:24:57.

and we will be thinking about how we can progress our agenda ahead of the

:24:57.:25:05.

2016 National Assembly elections. I understand the Welsh economy has

:25:05.:25:08.

2016 National Assembly elections. I been performing badly,

:25:08.:25:13.

underperforming in the UK. As I understand, Plaid Cymru's economic

:25:13.:25:17.

policies are well to left of Labour, so why would that encourage

:25:17.:25:21.

business to come to Wales if Plaid Cymru is, in effect, a Welsh

:25:21.:25:31.

Socialist party? I think Plaid Cymru's politics reflect the centre

:25:31.:25:35.

of gravity in Welsh politics, to the left of UK politics. That is why the

:25:35.:25:44.

economy is a central priority. We don't have the powers in our

:25:45.:25:48.

National Assembly to be able to affect change in the economy and

:25:48.:25:52.

therefore, getting the tools to do the job of turning around the

:25:52.:25:57.

economic performance has to be number one priority. Since I have

:25:57.:26:00.

been the leader in this party, I have talked about jobs, jobs, jobs,

:26:00.:26:05.

the economy and the need to create a solid infrastructure in Wales so we

:26:05.:26:11.

can build foundations for a six as full future. How are the Welsh

:26:11.:26:16.

lessons going? Say something in Welsh. How about the BBC's Daily

:26:16.:26:21.

Politics is the best programme on British television, or without sound

:26:21.:26:30.

like in Welsh? My lessons are ongoing. I am not fluent by a long

:26:30.:26:33.

way but my daughter is in Welsh ongoing. I am not fluent by a long

:26:33.:26:37.

medium school and she is a very good teacher, actually. That was very

:26:37.:26:42.

impressive. If you said what I asked you to say I could not agree more!

:26:42.:26:50.

Good luck with your conference, thank you for joining us.

:26:50.:26:59.

Is the world about to end? Is the general secretary of the world

:26:59.:27:08.

meteorological Society introducing -- you is the general secretary of

:27:08.:27:15.

the world meet a logical society. There is a high likelihood that

:27:15.:27:20.

changes in our climate system are the influence on global warming. It

:27:20.:27:26.

should serve as yet another wake-up call that our activities to date

:27:26.:27:31.

will have a profound impact on society not only for us but for many

:27:31.:27:37.

generations to come. The world has not been getting warmer recently but

:27:37.:27:40.

it is warmer than it was only several decades ago. How worried

:27:40.:27:44.

should we be about it? Is it worth investing huge sums of money to

:27:44.:27:53.

reverse effects? I am joined by Bjorn Lomborg, who argues this

:27:53.:28:06.

turret distorts the debate. -- this rhetorically distorts the debate. I

:28:06.:28:13.

think it ends up making people less worried in the long run. It makes

:28:13.:28:17.

people feel good, like we really have got to do something, but we

:28:17.:28:20.

have been doing this for 20 years and we have managed to do virtually

:28:20.:28:26.

nothing about climate change. We have made a lot of promises but the

:28:26.:28:33.

world has probably cut carbon emissions about half a percentage

:28:33.:28:36.

point. We have done virtually nothing except spent a lot of

:28:36.:28:38.

money. At the moment it is your view nothing except spent a lot of

:28:38.:28:44.

that climate change, in the sense of the planet getting warmer, is at the

:28:44.:28:50.

moment a net benefit to the planet over all. But I would suggest if it

:28:51.:28:54.

continues to get warm, it's easy to be a benefit. Absolutely, we have

:28:54.:29:02.

looked a lot at the problems and climate is one of them. All of the

:29:02.:29:06.

economic tell at moderate warming is a benefit to the world. -- all of

:29:06.:29:17.

the economics tell us. It is important to recognise that in

:29:17.:29:23.

economical terms it is a spent benefit, we have already got it.

:29:23.:29:27.

What we are talking about is what kind of climate do we want towards

:29:27.:29:32.

the end of the century? It is going to be a negative, so it is a problem

:29:32.:29:36.

we need to tackle. The real issue is, we are tackling it badly. We are

:29:36.:29:45.

spending huge amounts of money, we are estimating $250 billion a year,

:29:45.:29:53.

£170 billion a year, for Europe and yet after having spent all of that

:29:53.:29:56.

money every year for the rest of this century we will have reduced

:29:56.:30:02.

amateurs by one 20th of one degree centigrade. We cannot measure it in

:30:02.:30:12.

100 years. What you have always said is that climate change is happening

:30:12.:30:14.

and that the issue of the debate is that climate change is happening

:30:14.:30:16.

should be about climate change policy. How do you respond to the

:30:16.:30:20.

fact of warming, which we all accept? Do you have high cost and in

:30:20.:30:26.

effective policies or no cost and ineffective policies? On the policy

:30:26.:30:31.

question, a lot of environmentalists have got it wrong. One of the things

:30:31.:30:35.

I find it difficult to reconcile with in terms of the movement is the

:30:35.:30:39.

implications for populations around the world. For instant, --

:30:39.:30:47.

instance, people are in favour of organic food as against GM crops.

:30:47.:30:51.

instance, people are in favour of What would be a low-cost but highly

:30:51.:30:55.

effective solution or response to climate change? We asked 27 top

:30:55.:31:02.

economists that question and they said if you spend the money on the

:31:02.:31:06.

current policies for every pound you spend, you avoid three pence of

:31:06.:31:11.

climate damage. A bad way of spending money. If you spend it on

:31:11.:31:16.

research and development into green energy and make the next generations

:31:16.:31:20.

of energy so cheap everyone will want to buy them for every pound

:31:20.:31:27.

spent you will alloy £11 of damage. -/avoid. You're asking us to invest

:31:27.:31:30.

in something we don't know whether it will come right. We are putting

:31:30.:31:38.

money into wind and solar, because they do provide alternative

:31:38.:31:40.

renewable sources of energy. You're they do provide alternative

:31:40.:31:44.

asking us to put billions into things that may end up delivering

:31:44.:31:50.

nothing. Well, the real choice I think is we are now spending lots of

:31:50.:31:56.

money on things we know are not going to cut very much. Such as?

:31:56.:32:02.

Wind, solar and Biomass. We know that doesn't work that what is the

:32:02.:32:07.

British and German governments think. It will cut a little bit. But

:32:07.:32:14.

probably 3 or 4% of the European emissions. The rest will be exported

:32:14.:32:16.

to China and elsewhere and we will emissions. The rest will be exported

:32:16.:32:20.

end up paying and that is why we say for each spend you -- pound you

:32:20.:32:27.

spent you avoid three pence. But we know if you look at research in

:32:27.:32:33.

agriculture, yes, you don't know if that particular grant will work, if

:32:33.:32:37.

you spend it across a range of different opportunities, some will

:32:37.:32:41.

work. We have just need one or a few to work. There has been a change in

:32:41.:32:47.

the debate and I would suggest the combination of the current hiatus in

:32:47.:32:51.

temperatures rising and the recession that hit everyone after

:32:52.:32:57.

the financial crash in 2008, have made and you see it in the argument

:32:57.:33:02.

over energy businessmans in -- bills in Britain, it is tougher for

:33:02.:33:06.

politicians to get green policies through. Of course this Government

:33:06.:33:10.

said it would be the Greens ever and when David Cameron rebranded himself

:33:10.:33:12.

said it would be the Greens ever and as a modern Conservative people

:33:12.:33:15.

remember he replaced the Conservative torch with a green

:33:15.:33:20.

squiggle and he went and hugged some huskies. We have come a long way

:33:20.:33:24.

from that. Green policies are not attractive. In Britain and in

:33:24.:33:29.

America and China and India, if you want to get elected it is no not by

:33:29.:33:36.

-- not by saying have a green tax and Ed Milliband has a price freeze

:33:36.:33:41.

to say that is where the deis. Green politics have become unfashion nab.

:33:41.:33:46.

That is a shame. There is a way of selling the politics and boosting

:33:46.:33:51.

industry. We will have to leave it there. Thank you. Coming up in a

:33:51.:33:57.

moment it's our monthly look at what's been going on in European

:33:57.:34:01.

politics. For now it's time to say goodbye to Amol Rajan. So for the

:34:01.:34:08.

next half an hour we're going to be focussing on Europe. We'll be

:34:08.:34:10.

discussing the European Parliament's decision to increase the size of

:34:10.:34:13.

warnings on packets of cigarettes, the role of Europol in policing

:34:13.:34:17.

across the EU, and a new border surveillance programme the stop

:34:17.:34:19.

illegal immigrants. First though here's our guide to the latest from

:34:19.:34:21.

Europe - in just 60 seconds. The hours pilots will work with

:34:21.:34:37.

changed after new rules on flight and rest times. Despite lobbying

:34:37.:34:46.

from pilots. Jose Manuel Barroso visited Lampedusa after the disaster

:34:46.:34:53.

where hundreds of migrants died. It will be easier for doctors, and

:34:53.:34:59.

nurses to get their qualifications recognised in other EU countries a

:34:59.:35:04.

MEPs voted for a European professional qualifications card.

:35:04.:35:12.

The Pakistani schoolgirl who was shot by the Taliban has been awarded

:35:12.:35:19.

a peace prize. The European Parliament voted for new laws

:35:19.:35:25.

requiring exploration for shale gas should face the same regulation as a

:35:25.:35:28.

full-scale oil drilling. And with us for the next 30 minutes

:35:28.:35:39.

I've been joined by two former Tory MEPs who now belong to different

:35:39.:35:43.

parties. Edward McMillan-Scott is now a Liberal Democrat MEP and Roger

:35:43.:35:49.

Helmer represents UKIP. Let's take a look at one of those stories in more

:35:49.:35:53.

detail, the decision by the European Parliament to tighten up

:35:53.:35:55.

environmental controls on fracking for gas. Is that sensible? It is not

:35:55.:36:05.

sensible to apply those rules to exploratory drilling. It will hold

:36:05.:36:10.

back exploration and will be damaging to our economy and stand in

:36:10.:36:15.

the way of recovery and it is a challenge for David Cameron. He said

:36:15.:36:19.

he won't allow European rules to stand in the way of British shale

:36:19.:36:25.

gas. It is up to him to make good on that. What do you think I think the

:36:25.:36:33.

impact on euro has been benign. We have seen the Chernobyl disaster and

:36:33.:36:40.

these things can happen. Regulation is important. We only have to look

:36:40.:36:44.

around and see how bad other countries are. Since fracking, the

:36:44.:36:47.

environmental impact is in the country where the fracking takes

:36:47.:36:52.

place. No, the environment is universal. But where you put the

:36:52.:36:54.

place. No, the environment is drills, if I put a drill into more

:36:54.:37:03.

com bay it shouzn't affect Marseille. We are concerned that the

:37:03.:37:07.

rules for applying the technology are sound. That is both... Why isn't

:37:07.:37:11.

it the job of Westminster to do that. It is partly their job and

:37:11.:37:15.

partly the job of the European Union. What we are doing is looking

:37:15.:37:20.

at the way, the best practice and that is what has been arrived at.

:37:20.:37:24.

There is a general consensus from that. What is important for people

:37:24.:37:29.

to understand is the reason they're getting massive energy bills and

:37:29.:37:33.

they're going up, or one of the main reasons, is the European Union's

:37:33.:37:40.

green pretensions. That is putting this cost on energy. Westminster has

:37:40.:37:47.

been putting costs on energy. They're following Europe. Our carbon

:37:47.:37:51.

floor price was set by Westminster and is higher than the one set by

:37:51.:37:57.

Brussels. Europe started with this energy package and Westminster has

:37:57.:38:01.

made it worse. It is fair to say that Europe leads the world in

:38:01.:38:04.

environmental policy and we are seeing that year after year. And the

:38:04.:38:10.

most expensive energy. Yes, but it is the healthiest part of planet and

:38:10.:38:16.

we should take some pride. And we have energy poverty. The industry

:38:16.:38:21.

commissioner said a few weeks ago that we are seeing an industrial

:38:21.:38:25.

massacre in Europe, because of high price of energy. They're starting to

:38:25.:38:31.

realise that. I wanted a few words on that. But we had a pretty good

:38:31.:38:38.

debate on it. How much choice should smokers have about what cigarettes

:38:38.:38:41.

they can buy? What if their preferred packet of fags is seen to

:38:41.:38:44.

be attractive to children and teenagers? Should it be banned? The

:38:44.:38:47.

European Parliament has been voting on a new tobacco directive this week

:38:47.:38:51.

- with some pretty big implications regarding health and smokers' rights

:38:51.:38:54.

for its 500 million citizens. Jo Coburn reports from Strasbourg. Jack

:38:54.:39:07.

Brel and others, there were vs there was a time when French culture was

:39:07.:39:15.

linked to the moody, smoky charms of the cigarette. But times have moved

:39:15.:39:19.

on haven't they? Try lighting up these days in a French cafe and you

:39:19.:39:23.

will soon find out. But there are still concerns about the lure of

:39:23.:39:27.

tobacco for young people. With health groups claiming that there

:39:27.:39:31.

are specific products on the markets like these targeted at teenagers.

:39:31.:39:39.

Elegant, slim line cigarettes and some are even chocolate flavoured.

:39:39.:39:43.

It was appropriate then that here in the heart of France MEPs gathered to

:39:43.:39:49.

vote op measures to make -- on measures to make smoking less

:39:49.:39:54.

attractive to the young. But MEPs agreed to health warnings covering

:39:54.:40:02.

65% of the cigarette packet. But refuse the original proposal of 75%.

:40:02.:40:07.

They backed a bap on flavoured cigarettes, but with a five year

:40:07.:40:15.

delay for menthol cigarettes and banned the packs of ten and rejected

:40:15.:40:22.

a proposal to treat electronic cigarettes as medicines. We don't

:40:22.:40:28.

want to see young people starting to smoke. It is bad for their health

:40:28.:40:33.

and their purses and that is why it is important that we have measures

:40:33.:40:37.

to make it less attractive to young people. This is Parliament's first

:40:37.:40:41.

reading of the directive and it could go through by next year. But

:40:41.:40:45.

it could take two more years to become law across the 28 member

:40:45.:40:51.

states. Tobacco firms will not give up without a fight. Smoking is a

:40:51.:40:57.

fact of life. People smoke. And the choice isn't between do we allow

:40:57.:41:04.

smoking or stop it or do we ban things. The choice is between do we

:41:04.:41:09.

want the cigarette market to be supplied by legal businesses, who

:41:09.:41:15.

obey the laws and pay taxes, or do we want the market to be supplied by

:41:15.:41:20.

criminals operating on the black market? The EU estimates that almost

:41:20.:41:28.

700,000 Europeans die from smoking-related illnesses each year.

:41:28.:41:31.

700,000 Europeans die from But not everyone agrees that

:41:31.:41:34.

government should interfere. I think it is frustrating to see that the EU

:41:34.:41:42.

is increasingly infringing on citizens' private life. That is what

:41:42.:41:46.

is happening with something which is considered a general normal

:41:46.:41:51.

behaviour to smoke, it is all right. Everyone knows it might not be

:41:51.:41:56.

healthy, as it is to have a glass of wine, but these are choice of our

:41:56.:42:05.

life. Strasbourg is quiet as MEPs head home to rake over the ashes of

:42:05.:42:08.

life. Strasbourg is quiet as MEPs this week, but it is not clear

:42:08.:42:13.

whether this tale of hazy love and loathing has reached the end

:42:13.:42:26.

credits. Jo Coburn reporting. And we've been joined from Sheffield by

:42:26.:42:30.

the Labour MEP Linda McAvan who as 'rapporteur' took the new

:42:30.:42:32.

legislation through the European Parliament. Is it possible to say,

:42:32.:42:40.

put a figure on how much this will save EU health budgets? Well, the

:42:40.:42:44.

amount, the cost of actually treating people who have illness

:42:44.:42:49.

from smoking goes into huge figures of billions of pounds and euros and

:42:50.:42:55.

so I mean that is one thing. But of course the main point of the

:42:55.:42:58.

legislation was to stop a new generation of smokers from starting

:42:58.:43:03.

to smoke. That is why it is about taking these products off the market

:43:03.:43:07.

and putting young people off smoking. You didn't manage to ban

:43:07.:43:12.

these cigarettes, why was that? We never wanted to ban e-cigarettes.

:43:12.:43:18.

The companies were saying this to people. Nobody was proposing to ban

:43:18.:43:23.

them. The debate is about how to regulate the cigarettes. What sort

:43:23.:43:29.

of, if we have a new product, what the checks and balances to make sure

:43:29.:43:33.

the products do what they say on the tin and they're safe and meet

:43:33.:43:38.

certain product standards when the UK regulator spent three years

:43:38.:43:43.

looking at these, they found that many products were -- substandard.

:43:43.:43:53.

Slim cigarettes, the proposal was to take them off the market, because

:43:53.:43:58.

they're a misleading prushgt and -- product and they're aimed at young

:43:58.:44:04.

women. We didn't get support from Conservative and UKIP and Liberal

:44:04.:44:08.

Democrat MEPs. There is already a massive black market in cigarettes.

:44:08.:44:15.

What is to stop that black market getting bigger now that these

:44:15.:44:19.

tougher regulations are coming in? The new law puts in place measures

:44:19.:44:24.

to combat illegal traffic of cigarettes by requiring more track

:44:24.:44:30.

and traces on cigarettes. But yesterday the House of Commons

:44:30.:44:34.

published a report from the Public Accounts Committee that says the

:44:34.:44:38.

companies are involved in encouraging smuggling by

:44:38.:44:42.

oversupplying in eastern Europe and having them reexported to other

:44:42.:44:46.

countries. The companies have been involved in this before and they

:44:46.:44:49.

were fined for this. So the measures we we have put in place yesterday,

:44:49.:44:54.

if nay become law will -- if they become law will improve things. I

:44:54.:44:58.

don't understand why the industry is lobbying against them. Do you

:44:58.:45:09.

support the changes? I hate smoking but I also resent people who smoke

:45:09.:45:14.

and their rights. I think we are beyond the point of balance. I think

:45:14.:45:18.

it has come to absurd lengths. What is the point of banning menthol

:45:18.:45:22.

cigarettes, largely smoked by older people? A cigarettes are used by

:45:22.:45:30.

people who smoke and want to stop smoking. The wide availability will

:45:30.:45:34.

save tens of thousands of lives, yet the European Parliament, Surrey, the

:45:34.:45:40.

commission, was trying to limit them to pharmacies. It was not a band,

:45:40.:45:54.

but it was close to a band. I think they have responsibility for public

:45:54.:45:59.

health and that is why they have acted. I agree that the 700,000

:45:59.:46:03.

people dying in Europe every year from lung cancer and many other

:46:03.:46:16.

diseases which are the product of smoking. I think e-cigarettes are a

:46:16.:46:20.

product which needs regulation and our approach was allow them into the

:46:20.:46:23.

market on the same basis as cigarettes. We do not want

:46:23.:46:33.

flavours. Anything that is an inducement to young people to smoke

:46:34.:46:39.

should be prevented. What is your final response? Neither mentioned it

:46:39.:46:45.

is children who start smoking, not adults. The key aim was to tech

:46:45.:46:50.

products of the market that attract children. Every day, 570 children in

:46:50.:46:56.

the UK start smoking. The cigarette companies know what they are doing,

:46:56.:46:59.

they target children. Menthol cigarettes are a key gateway had a

:46:59.:47:06.

-- product for young people and you inhale more deeply with them. This

:47:06.:47:12.

is not a nanny state measure, this is a very important public health

:47:12.:47:19.

measure. Josie Manuel Barroso was heckled

:47:19.:47:25.

this week by residents on the islands of Lampedusa initially . --

:47:25.:47:31.

the island of Lampedusa. He was visiting after the migrant boat

:47:31.:47:37.

disaster when 300 Africans died after their boat sank off the island

:47:37.:47:41.

last Thursday. The EU Commissioner for Home Affairs, Cecilia Malmstrom,

:47:41.:47:47.

said Europe needed to act together to prevent more deaths. We need to

:47:47.:47:52.

do everything we can to prevent tragedies such as this one from

:47:52.:47:57.

happening again. It calls for EU action. We need to act in the

:47:57.:48:01.

short-term, medium-term and long-term. I proposed to launch a

:48:01.:48:07.

wide search and rescue operation covering the whole of the

:48:07.:48:12.

Mediterranean, from Spain to Cyprus, to save lives and detect

:48:12.:48:19.

votes in time -- detect boats in time to prevent tragedies. There

:48:19.:48:26.

will be a new surveillance system called EUROSUR. They say it will

:48:26.:48:31.

help combat illegal emigration and cross-border time, but will also

:48:31.:48:36.

help to save migrants' lives. Yann Mulder has been guiding all of this

:48:36.:48:42.

through the European Parliament and joins me now. How will EUROSUR work?

:48:42.:48:54.

EUROSUR will work by setting up member states to gather information

:48:54.:48:59.

EUROSUR will work by setting up from all of the agencies and

:49:00.:49:10.

governments to do with protecting external borders. It will be sent to

:49:10.:49:16.

Frontex, who will communicate it to other participating countries. What

:49:16.:49:23.

is the purpose of EUROSUR? Is it to protect EU borders and make them

:49:23.:49:29.

more secure from illegal immigration? Or is it to stop a

:49:29.:49:35.

tragedy like Lampedusa? All of them. It is preventing irregular

:49:35.:49:40.

immigration, cross-border crime, and at the insistence of the European

:49:40.:49:44.

Parliament we have very much emphasised that it should play a

:49:44.:49:47.

role in saving the lives of people. But the main aim is for strong

:49:47.:49:57.

external borders in Europe inside. Everywhere in Europe, you can travel

:49:57.:50:05.

freely. That means if you do not protect the external borders in a

:50:05.:50:08.

good way, if you have a weak spot, all of the year -- European member

:50:08.:50:18.

states need to be well informed of the state of the external borders.

:50:18.:50:23.

The EUROSUR pilot started in 2010. Italy was included in the pilot but

:50:23.:50:27.

it did not stop Lampedusa, did it? Is that not a worried that it will

:50:27.:50:35.

not work? -- is that not a worry? I have asked myself that question. We

:50:35.:50:40.

can only say that it is not yet completely completed and we have to

:50:40.:50:44.

wait before it is fully functional, and then we can see the results. Let

:50:44.:50:50.

me bring in my guests. Edward McMillan-Scott, if more ships are

:50:50.:50:55.

detected, more people detained, will countries be able to cope with what

:50:55.:51:02.

will become asylum cases? There are already many cases in Europe.

:51:02.:51:08.

272,000. Some countries taking a lot more than other countries. I think

:51:08.:51:17.

it is important that Europe should work together on this, because after

:51:17.:51:21.

all, we are a single market, trying to create a single market which

:51:21.:51:26.

works for everybody. On the other hand, there are countries where

:51:26.:51:32.

there are such desperation that people will track across Africa to

:51:32.:51:36.

get into a rickety boat and find themselves drowning off Lampedusa.

:51:36.:51:43.

This is a tragedy. One of the EU agencies, Frontex, has saved 60,000

:51:43.:51:48.

lives in the editor in ian. It is quite extraordinary the number of

:51:48.:51:58.

vessels coming and going. Europe's eastern and southern borders are not

:51:58.:52:00.

vessels coming and going. Europe's great. If there can be a way to

:52:00.:52:05.

prevent that flow, that is a good political idea but we have no

:52:05.:52:09.

confidence in that. We are glad we are outside the Schengen area. We

:52:09.:52:14.

could criticise the British Government for not doing it right

:52:14.:52:17.

but we must rely on national control of our borders. We cannot rely on

:52:17.:52:22.

poorest borders in Europe and then free movement. -- porous borders.

:52:22.:52:29.

These collaborations between police forces are essential to the exchange

:52:29.:52:36.

of information. Thank you for joining us on Daily Politics. Do you

:52:36.:52:43.

know what Europol does? If not, take a look at this.

:52:43.:52:58.

Welcome to the most secure building in the Netherlands, the offices of

:52:58.:53:02.

Europol in the Hague. It is home to 800 officials who helped police

:53:02.:53:08.

forces in member states fight crimes across borders. We are not a

:53:08.:53:13.

European FBI, we do not have those powers neither do we claim them. We

:53:13.:53:17.

are on intelligence centre that can exchange intelligence in real time

:53:17.:53:20.

very quickly and give the intelligence leads to the National

:53:20.:53:24.

crime agency in the UK, for example, so they can track down and apprehend

:53:24.:53:30.

those criminals. Busting drugs rings is a speciality, hence Europol's own

:53:30.:53:39.

replica meth lab. The this is a typical amphetamine lab based on

:53:39.:53:45.

equipment and chemicals. So that is the Breaking Bad stuff. What is

:53:45.:53:51.

this? This is a machine that can produce tablets. You can tell that

:53:51.:54:00.

this is straightaway. You like this is a typical indoor cannabis

:54:00.:54:06.

cultivation tent. You can buy it for a few hundred euros and start

:54:06.:54:12.

cultivating cannabis. This room is a faradays cage, which means no

:54:12.:54:20.

signals penetrate. Inside, they scrub hard drives and telephones.

:54:20.:54:26.

signals penetrate. Inside, they This forensics expert is a pro at

:54:26.:54:29.

spotting fake euros seized every year. What generally goes wrong with

:54:29.:54:39.

counterfeits is having something to compare it to. If you put it next to

:54:39.:54:46.

a genuine banknote, you find differences. In real life it does

:54:46.:54:50.

not work like that. Up here, they track of counterfeiters who will

:54:50.:54:54.

make knock-offs of anything. Yes, anything. Any kind of product can be

:54:54.:55:01.

counterfeit. We realise that food is also a type of product which is

:55:01.:55:05.

easily and often counterfeit it. also a type of product which is

:55:05.:55:08.

Counterfeit food, how does that work? For instance,

:55:08.:55:48.

crime more difficult, less efficient and probably more costly as well.

:55:49.:55:54.

Europol say an analysis of 600 high-profile cases showed that half

:55:54.:55:55.

of them had links to the UK. high-profile cases showed that half

:55:55.:56:05.

That was Adam being taken away in a police car! We have not seen him

:56:05.:56:11.

since. Why should we not cooperate more with Europol? Crime has gone

:56:11.:56:17.

continental, don't rhyme fighters need to go continental? --

:56:17.:56:28.

crime-fighters. We have no problem with cross-border crime

:56:28.:56:30.

collaboration. We have an objection to the idea of Brussels taking

:56:31.:56:33.

control and we see that in the report, that they are going to set

:56:33.:56:37.

down what information we must give. The British Government, credit to it

:56:37.:56:42.

in this case, has said no, we are unhappy about that. They are quite

:56:42.:56:45.

right too and I hope they will hold off. I think that these

:56:45.:56:52.

international corporations, such as Interpol or Europol, are very

:56:52.:56:59.

valuable. Europol is trying to protect the internal market, all of

:56:59.:57:03.

the infringements like for example counterfeiting, which Interpol does

:57:03.:57:07.

not do. We have got our own Interpol, if you like, within the

:57:07.:57:10.

not do. We have got our own European Union. There is room for

:57:10.:57:18.

both. Europol is a centre where excellent research can be done and

:57:18.:57:24.

where shared information happens, and so on. That is why it is

:57:24.:57:28.

important we do not lose the argument on Europe to the extreme

:57:28.:57:32.

parties like UKIP. Basically they want something which doesn't exist.

:57:32.:57:40.

They think that somehow the UK must give more away. You know that is

:57:40.:57:52.

nonsense, I know -- do not know why you have come here. On Tuesday Nick

:57:52.:57:57.

Clegg said leaving the EU would be economic suicide. We need to get

:57:57.:58:04.

these arguments across. Europol has actually managed to lead to the

:58:04.:58:08.

arrests of several hundred child molesters... You have given us a

:58:08.:58:13.

flavour of the debate to come. That is it for today. Thank you to my

:58:13.:58:15.

guests. Goodbye.

:58:15.:58:19.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS