25/10/2013 Daily Politics


25/10/2013

Andrew Neil has the top political stories of the day.


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Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. The top story:

:00:40.:00:46.

Britain's economy grew by 0.8% in the three months to September, the

:00:47.:00:50.

third consecutive quarter of growth. The Chancellor says that the country

:00:51.:00:55.

is on the path to prosperity. A dealer struck to save the

:00:56.:00:59.

petrochemical plant at Grangemouth in Scotland, but only at the cost of

:01:00.:01:03.

the Unite union agreeing to total capitulation.

:01:04.:01:08.

European leaders demand talks with the US and spying after claims that

:01:09.:01:11.

American agencies tapped Angela Merkel's mobile phone!

:01:12.:01:18.

And John Prescott, for it is he, will be here to debate whether

:01:19.:01:21.

public money is being wasted on northern cities like Hull!

:01:22.:01:26.

So all that coming up in the next hour or so, and with us for the next

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half-hour is Bronwyn Curtis, currently head of global research at

:01:33.:01:40.

a small boutique bank called HSBC, which, unusually, it is not owned by

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the UK taxpayer, welcome to the programme. Let's start with the

:01:45.:01:48.

latest on the industrial dispute at Grangemouth oil refinery, the

:01:49.:01:52.

petrochemical plant in Scotland. On Wednesday, the owners, INEOS,

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announced that they would close the petrochemical part of the planned

:01:59.:02:01.

after workers refused to accept a proposal for cuts in their pay and

:02:02.:02:06.

conditions. That meant 800 jobs were at risk. This morning it announced

:02:07.:02:10.

that the unions have backed down almost entirely and accepted the

:02:11.:02:14.

management proposals. This is what the chairman of the Grangemouth

:02:15.:02:16.

petrochemicals company said just over an hour ago. Very happy to

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announce that, following a meeting with the shareholders yesterday,

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Grangemouth petrochemicals will remain open, so that decision has

:02:28.:02:32.

been reversed, and INEOS have confirmed that the ?300 million that

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they are going to put into it will be available and we will start

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immediately with those projects again. We have also confirmed that,

:02:40.:02:43.

with immediate effect, with due respect to all the safety and

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timing, that all the assets will start as of today.

:02:49.:02:52.

Well, that is the bass up in Grangemouth, and in the past of our

:02:53.:02:57.

Alex Salmond, following this industrial dispute very closely, has

:02:58.:03:00.

been talking about the details of the deal. The deal is that the

:03:01.:03:07.

survival plan is now back on. That involves substantial investment in

:03:08.:03:10.

the chemical facility and petrochemical facility at

:03:11.:03:14.

Grangemouth. It means not only is the facility not closing, but that

:03:15.:03:19.

investment means there is a prospect of a bright future for the next 25

:03:20.:03:24.

years. So it is a very significant announcement in terms of saving a

:03:25.:03:28.

major part of Scotland's industrial infrastructure. The jobs of the

:03:29.:03:33.

people who depend on the chemical plant, but also, significantly,

:03:34.:03:39.

security over the medium-term, because of the investment plan which

:03:40.:03:42.

is at the heart of the announcement today.

:03:43.:03:50.

Watching the boss of Grangemouth there, he has had the biggest

:03:51.:03:56.

victory over a British union since Mrs Thatcher beat Arthur Scargill,

:03:57.:04:01.

and he looks miserable. Is there the possibility that INEOS did not

:04:02.:04:05.

really want the union to capitulate, they just did not want to do the

:04:06.:04:09.

investment? There were suddenly claims beforehand that maybe all of

:04:10.:04:12.

this had been trumped up, that INEOS wanted to get out of it, and clearly

:04:13.:04:17.

what they have got is ?125 million of loan guarantees from the

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Treasury. Not actual money but a guarantee. Indeed, and about ?9

:04:23.:04:31.

million from the Scottish government to do this, and they have had a huge

:04:32.:04:34.

amount of political pressure, obviously, to try to change their

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minds. But they have also had, as you said, the union capitulating.

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Not a good day for the union, good for the workers, but the union comes

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out of this looking particularly bad, and the workers have had to

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take quite a cut in pay and inventions and had to say that they

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will not strike for the next three years. They have taken a cut in pay,

:04:49.:04:53.

not just pension contributions? Yes, part of the deal will be that their

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yearly salaries will be reduced, that they will reduce some of their

:05:00.:05:03.

pensions, and it will not strike for the next three years. To all intents

:05:04.:05:06.

and purposes, this is a nonunion plant, a no strike deal, a cut in

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pay, you have just told us, a cut in pensions as well. I'm even told that

:05:14.:05:18.

the union convenor is not going to be allowed in the plant as well.

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Clearly, it has had a huge impact on industrial relations there, and the

:05:24.:05:27.

fact that the plant is going to remain open is not going to make

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those industrial relations much better in the short term, and

:05:31.:05:34.

clearly in the refinery as well. So the plan is that the oil refinery

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will reopen at some stage, that was not closed down. The petrochemicals

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plant reopens now, and they proceed with about ?300 million worth of

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investment to allow them to bring natural gas from the United States

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in tankers to a new harbour, in Newport at Grangemouth, and the

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petrochemical plant will keep going. That is the planned Umax absolutely

:05:59.:06:02.

right, and they say it has got a good life span of 15 to 20 years.

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That will come as good news for the workers and for Grangemouth as a

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whole. Some 2000 of the subcontractors have already been

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laid off, so clearly good news for the whole area, good news for the

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Scottish Government and the UK Government, which put a huge amount

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of pressure on the company. Because it was all happening within the

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context of the independence referendum. Here is the rub, the

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deal seems to have been done, but there is a worldwide glut of simple

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petrochemicals like ethylene, which is what this plant is going to make,

:06:43.:06:45.

and Dow Chemical Company ethylene at about a third of the price that

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Grangemouth can. Where does this go? This is Dow Chemical in Texas,

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compared to Grangemouth. When you talk about 15 or 20 years, I heard

:06:58.:07:01.

Alex Salmond talking about 25 years, what are the market

:07:02.:07:04.

realities? A lot more gas is coming out through fracking. The economic

:07:05.:07:09.

South changed so much and these European based plans have the

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company canonical. -- the economic have changed. The pressure is going

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forward are going to come back again, so we might be in the same

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position in three years' time. Dow Chemical told me they are moving out

:07:28.:07:30.

of Europe, out of Japan, and they are about to board $30 billion of

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new capacity into taxes to use the cheap natural gas. -- Texas. You do

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not have to be an expert to know that these plans will be state of

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the art, unit costs low, and Grangemouth will look a dinosaur.

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Not just Grangemouth, but a lot of Europe. Of course, Europe is not

:07:51.:07:57.

growing either, so already we have seen energy by passing Europe and

:07:58.:08:01.

going straight from the US to the Middle East, to Asia, to the growing

:08:02.:08:05.

parts of the world, and once they get this high-tech factory and so

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on, it will put more and more pressure on that. I do not see it

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getting better, I see it getting worse, and I think this is good for

:08:15.:08:19.

the moment, but going forward we might be seeing more cost-cutting.

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On the politics of this, very briefly, did anybody win in the

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sense that there was a battle between Holyrood in Edinburgh,

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Westminster in London, did anybody come out on this? I think both

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governments will take away from the fact that they have managed to get

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the decision reversed, and it was clearly very important for them that

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it did not shut down, for different reasons clearly, the only oil

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refinery in Scotland, that would have been a catastrophe for the

:08:47.:08:52.

Scottish Government, and for UK Government, it would have been a

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catastrophe for them to lose the indirect jobs.

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Time now for the daily quiz, and the question is who is threatening to go

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on strike in France next month? They always go on strike in France, you

:09:05.:09:07.

might say! Les boulangers, les pompiers, Gerard Depardieu, les

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footballeurs? I think Gerard Depardieu lives in Russia now. A bit

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later in the show Bronwen, of course, will tell us if she has any

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idea what we are talking about. Right, come close, close! Listen

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carefully, and you might be able to hear the sound of champagne corks

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popping in Whitehall. Not that the champion of austerity, George

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Osborne, would indulge in such an extravagance, not since the

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Bullingdon Club days, but he might have afforded himself an extra

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rasher of bacon following the new growth figures. Third-quarter growth

:09:50.:09:54.

for this year is up 0.8%, a wee bit up on the 0.7 figure from April to

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June. It means the UK economy is due to grow by around 1.5%, maybe more,

:10:00.:10:04.

this year. Growth continues to be driven by a strong service sector,

:10:05.:10:10.

now 0.6% higher than its peak before the 2008 crash. Manufacturing and

:10:11.:10:16.

construction also grew strongly. Unemployment continues to fall, with

:10:17.:10:21.

the number of people out of work down 18,000 in the three months to

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August. The total number of people currently in work is at a record

:10:26.:10:30.

high. House prices are rising again. The Halifax survey said

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average property prices have risen by 5.4% in the year to August,

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pushing the cost of the average house price to its highest level for

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five years. Of course, that is boosted by London and the South. And

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UK car production is also up to levels not seen since 2008, with

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more than 140,000 cars rolling off the production line last year. That

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is up 10% on one year ago, and, here is a change, because actually work!

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But wages continue to be squeezed, with average pay rises of 0.8% in

:11:05.:11:09.

the last year, a lot less than inflation, which remains stubbornly

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high at 2.7%. And that means that, unlike the economy, living standards

:11:16.:11:19.

are not growing. This is what the Chancellor had to

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say this morning. I think Britain's hard work is paying off, and we are

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on the path to prosperity. Lots of risks remain, but I think there is

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real momentum in the economy and in all sectors of the economy,

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manufacturing and construction as well as services, so that is good

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news for Britain and for British families, because it will eat to an

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increase in loving standards. Conservative MP Charlie Elphicke and

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Labour's Chris Leslie join us now, welcome to both of you. Charlie

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Elphicke, any chance that you will get the economy back to the size

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that it was in 2008? I think these figures are really good news, and

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Britain's hard work is clearly paying off, we are on the path back

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to prosperity, but as you say there is a lot to do. The Governor of the

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Bank of England says the recovery lacks traction and is currently too

:12:09.:12:11.

focused on the south-east. I think the figures today are really

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positive, particularly construction up 2.5%, and the manufacture in

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figures are particularly welcome. But what's point, too focused on the

:12:20.:12:30.

south-east? The Chancellor has been working hard to ensure we have more

:12:31.:12:32.

prosperity in the North and across the whole country, and it is

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important that it is spread across the nation. Chris Leslie, you must

:12:36.:12:37.

be overjoyed that the economy is growing at a rate of 3%! It is

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overdue. We should have had this level of growth several years ago by

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now, but for most people they are still paying the price for that

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lag, that delay, in getting growth moving. We have had three years,

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virtual stagnation, so while we should be out of the blocks, a lot

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of our competitors internationally have zoomed ahead. Oh, really? Tell

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me a major economy in Europe that is growing faster than Britain! Well,

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in terms of the quarterly rate, you know, they do vary... Well, take the

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annual rate, tell me a major economy that has grown faster than Britain

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this year. The question is, when did those economies turn the corner and

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get out of recession, and most of those economies, Germany, France and

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the USA, were moving out of their recovery years ago. We are only just

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getting out of the blocks. The reason that matters is because it

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has fed into depressed wages, purchasing power of take-home income

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has not been able to keep pace with prices, and that is where we really

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have to focus on cost of living. You have answered your question, could

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you answer mine? Tommy a major economy in Europe that is growing

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faster than Britain in 2013. -- tell me. You are right to say that when

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we start, of course we should be motoring on fairly quickly. So there

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isn't! There isn't! The key question is, at what point do you get out of

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the blocks. Those economies have been motoring on a lot longer...

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What, France, Italy, Spain? It will be interesting to see whether this

:14:15.:14:20.

level of growth can be sustained. All right, let me put... There are

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concerns about whether we are seeing a lopsided recovery, with the Help

:14:26.:14:28.

To Buy scheme looking at people is adding to question whether there is

:14:29.:14:31.

a bubble in London and the south-east, so there is a lot of

:14:32.:14:39.

anxiety is now about sustainability. There is always a bubble in London

:14:40.:14:42.

and the south-east when it comes to higher prices. It is all well and

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good for us to sit in the studios and talk about GDP growth figures,

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which are frankly of no relevance to most people directly. What matters

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are the prices in the shops and the pay in people's pay pockets at the

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end of the week or the month. And people are still suffering. This

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growth makes no difference to them. The difficulty you have is that

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every recession, you have a fall in earnings, it happens every time. We

:15:14.:15:18.

had the first recession --worst recession in 100 years. But you get

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much quicker bounce backs than we have had. Peoples wages start to

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rise quickly again, this is abnormal. Under your Government,

:15:31.:15:35.

living standards have not risen. It is an abnormal recession, because we

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had the massive debt crisis that came with it, so it has been a

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struggle to get the nation back on the path to prosperity. Labour's

:15:43.:15:47.

idea was more borrowing, spending and debt which will only drive up

:15:48.:15:51.

mortgage rates. You are doubling the amount of money the country will

:15:52.:15:55.

borrow in the five years you will be in power. But Ed Balls is calling

:15:56.:16:00.

for more borrowing and spending. Whether it is 1.5 trillion or 1.6

:16:01.:16:05.

trillion, it is irrelevant, it is trillions. We're working hard to

:16:06.:16:09.

make the nation's finances come back into order as quickly as possible

:16:10.:16:13.

and support the markets, helping to keep mortgage rates low. Chris, over

:16:14.:16:20.

to you. You might forget this, but you lost the triple-A rating this

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country used to have and the borrowing levels have been so high

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without the deficit coming down significantly in the last couple of

:16:27.:16:30.

years, because of the costs of economic failure. You can't expect

:16:31.:16:33.

people to just have collective amnesia about the past three years.

:16:34.:16:38.

The fact that we haven't been getting out of recovery really

:16:39.:16:41.

matters. That is the reason why there has been so much weight on

:16:42.:16:45.

people's take-home pay and people are not able to feel this recovery.

:16:46.:16:49.

So when you and the Chancellor talk about prosperity returning, it shows

:16:50.:16:53.

how out of touch you are when the most people, life is getting harder.

:16:54.:16:57.

You have no answers on the cost of living, certainly when it comes to

:16:58.:17:02.

energy bills and other issues. You have to focus on helping ordinary

:17:03.:17:06.

working people and doing it urgently. We have heard from the

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politicians. What say you? I think we need to look forward. Everyone is

:17:12.:17:15.

more confident than they were. We have got a recovery. And if it lacks

:17:16.:17:20.

traction, as Mark Carney says, it probably does and what he is saying

:17:21.:17:24.

is we are going to keep rates as low for as long as we can to make sure

:17:25.:17:31.

this economy gets some traction. Can I just say, first of all, he is

:17:32.:17:35.

going to have do up his forecast, because he's underestimating, but if

:17:36.:17:40.

it does grow by 3% next year, if it continues its current growth rate,

:17:41.:17:45.

can he keep interest rates low? No, but you are not going to have 3%

:17:46.:17:50.

next year. It would be great... Speaker at Big Apple, the city has

:17:51.:17:55.

got this wrong before. Yes, and I think you are being optimistic. --be

:17:56.:18:03.

careful, the city has got this wrong before. Investment intentions are

:18:04.:18:08.

rub, but investment is still down. If you look at the period in real

:18:09.:18:14.

terms, we are down so you need firms to invest to keep it going. Chris

:18:15.:18:21.

Leslie, does Labour still have a plan B? I think our plan, we want

:18:22.:18:25.

the Government to pursue the plan B, which is focused on British

:18:26.:18:33.

investments, make sure you look at house-buying and of course, most

:18:34.:18:36.

important of all, help people with bad cost of living. That is our plan

:18:37.:18:43.

B. So this is a new plan because you mark a plan C? We have been

:18:44.:18:49.

advocating a different course for a long time, we have been banging on

:18:50.:19:00.

about the need for growth for a long time and we haven't had it for three

:19:01.:19:04.

years. Of course it is overdue but let's focus on making sure it is

:19:05.:19:08.

sustained and strong, it is the only way to help people with the cost of

:19:09.:19:12.

living. When you come back down here, you can talk about plan C. Why

:19:13.:19:15.

is business not investing in this country? That is the next thing to

:19:16.:19:17.

follow. We are moving from rescue to recovery and then to prosperity.

:19:18.:19:22.

There will be bumps in the road. Why is it not investing? Business should

:19:23.:19:29.

weigh in, thinking the recovery is logging in, and then... It is more

:19:30.:19:36.

likely now that businesses will invest. We are more optimistic

:19:37.:19:38.

manner that business will start to invest and living standards will

:19:39.:19:44.

turn. You better come back and see me as well, see if businesses are

:19:45.:19:50.

investing and see if plan B is really plan C. Thanks to both of

:19:51.:19:52.

you. Let's talk about the allegations

:19:53.:19:56.

that United States spying agencies have been listening to the private

:19:57.:20:00.

mobile phone conversations of world leaders, including the German

:20:01.:20:02.

Chancellor Angela Merkel. Yesterday, she spoke to Barack Obama about the

:20:03.:20:09.

claims. He told that America was not and would not tap her phone, but it

:20:10.:20:13.

does open the possibility that the US has been doing exactly that. The

:20:14.:20:18.

issue has dominated a meeting of EU leaders in Brussels. Let's get the

:20:19.:20:28.

latest from Ian. So we have the eurozone crisis, 60% youth

:20:29.:20:34.

unemployment in Spain, is this really what they are talking about?

:20:35.:20:39.

It is, they are talking about red tape, the digital economy, when they

:20:40.:20:45.

introduce data protection rules, the Prime Minister actually wants then

:20:46.:20:51.

delayed until 2015, but the official agenda didn't have it, if the two

:20:52.:20:57.

major powers want it on the table it will turn upon the menu, and they

:20:58.:21:01.

talked about this extensively last night. After the session was wound

:21:02.:21:05.

up in the middle of the night, Herman Van Rompuy, the president of

:21:06.:21:08.

the European Council, issued what seemed to be an implicit threat to

:21:09.:21:12.

the United States, saying we need mutual respect and trust and if not,

:21:13.:21:18.

it could prejudice intelligence gathering and sharing when it comes

:21:19.:21:21.

to countering terrorism. Angela Merkel spoke of the night and we

:21:22.:21:25.

expect her to speak against it. If you are reading between the lines,

:21:26.:21:29.

her lines are written in green ink! She said very clearly that in the

:21:30.:21:33.

new relationship, trust has been breached. The Americans have not

:21:34.:21:36.

denied they have tapped her phone, so obviously they have. She said

:21:37.:21:41.

they need radical change by the end of the year. France and Germany are

:21:42.:21:45.

joining together to try and forge that union with America, but perhaps

:21:46.:21:50.

less than extensively reported, some of the European leaders said that

:21:51.:21:55.

everyone should share what they knew about this, what has been called

:21:56.:22:02.

Datagate, David Cameron remained very silent indeed! Interestingly,

:22:03.:22:09.

Herman Van Rompuy was saying we had to rebuild trust not just with

:22:10.:22:12.

America but with other European nations. If I was the President of

:22:13.:22:16.

France or Chancellor of Germany and I am sure both nations are glad I am

:22:17.:22:21.

not, I would be thinking that if that is what big Satan has been too

:22:22.:22:27.

to, Little Satan in the shape of GCHQ, must have been up to the same

:22:28.:22:31.

thing. Is David Cameron a little bit sheepish about this? I think

:22:32.:22:35.

sheepish is a good word. When he arrives, he usually stops after

:22:36.:22:39.

talk, this time it would have been about red tape but yesterday he

:22:40.:22:43.

drove straight past me and refused to answer a question about things

:22:44.:22:46.

being overshadowed by this spying scandal. So when he speaks in the

:22:47.:22:51.

next ten minutes or so at his press conference, it will be the first

:22:52.:22:54.

words he has uttered publicly since he got beer, almost the last

:22:55.:22:57.

European leader to do so. There was an accusation from Italy that GCHQ

:22:58.:23:09.

may have been doing the same thing. You go and get them. Should we be in

:23:10.:23:15.

any way surprised that America or Britain or anybody actually

:23:16.:23:20.

eavesdrops on their allies? No! I am surprised that people are surprised.

:23:21.:23:26.

Look, investment banks, four years and years, for as long as I

:23:27.:23:30.

remember, have recorded all of their telephone calls that go through

:23:31.:23:33.

their dealing desks and so on. We know we had a bit of a scandal with

:23:34.:23:39.

Bluebird, every keystroke is recorded, so you know all of this.

:23:40.:23:46.

We know that mobile phones have been hacked. We do, a lot. Speaking why

:23:47.:23:54.

would you be surprised this happen? Now, over the past two decades,

:23:55.:23:59.

Ingrid's big industrial cities have developed strong service sector

:24:00.:24:02.

economy is, but some of the smaller industrial towns, still quite large

:24:03.:24:06.

but smaller than Manchester or Liverpool or Newcastle, mainly in

:24:07.:24:09.

the north, have been listed as decaying by an article in the

:24:10.:24:17.

Economist. The article says that their decline should be managed by

:24:18.:24:21.

supporting the people who live there, to help them commute to

:24:22.:24:25.

places where there are jobs, rather than rescuing them like Michael

:24:26.:24:28.

Heseltine did with Liverpool in the 1980s and the Blair-Brown

:24:29.:24:31.

governments did in the last decade or so. There has been an outcry in

:24:32.:24:36.

Hull, one of the city is named by the Economist article, so Tim

:24:37.:24:48.

Iredale went off to investigate. With its waterfront, dogs and

:24:49.:24:51.

industrial heritage, Liverpool has much in common with Hull, its fellow

:24:52.:25:01.

maritime city --Docs. Many people in Hull will look at Liverpool with

:25:02.:25:05.

some envy. In recent years, it has had one of the fastest-growing

:25:06.:25:09.

economies in the UK, so it is hard to imagine that just over 30 years

:25:10.:25:13.

ago, there was talk in Government of abandoning this city. Archive

:25:14.:25:19.

documents reveal that following riots in Liverpool in 1981, the then

:25:20.:25:25.

Chancellor Geoffrey Howe suggested a programme of managed decline. There

:25:26.:25:30.

was an echo of that era in a recent edition of the Economist, entitled

:25:31.:25:37.

Britain's Decaying Towns, which suggested the Government should turn

:25:38.:25:40.

up the spending taps in so-called failing towns and cities such as

:25:41.:25:45.

Hull, Burnley and Middlesbrough. The argument is about where jobs are

:25:46.:25:50.

created. For a long time, the Government has put effort into

:25:51.:25:52.

trying to move people to where the jobs are and it hasn't really

:25:53.:25:59.

worked. We still see these persistent statistics, like in

:26:00.:26:04.

Hull, where 27% of working age households have nobody in work.

:26:05.:26:09.

Former Liverpool MP and Labour Minister Peter Kilfoyle says he has

:26:10.:26:15.

heard that argument before and it has been proved wrong. We had it a

:26:16.:26:19.

few years ago saying that places in the North should be abandoned and

:26:20.:26:22.

everybody should move to London and Oxford, the growth areas. This is

:26:23.:26:27.

nonsense. Any forward-looking Government, any forward-looking

:26:28.:26:33.

society that wants to invest in people should invest. Have we got a

:26:34.:26:39.

point where we say we cannot invest in a city if there are no results?

:26:40.:26:44.

Any Government who says that has to ask why they have not got the

:26:45.:26:48.

results they set out to obtain. Part of the reason in this country is

:26:49.:26:51.

that everything is concentrated in the south-east. The country as a

:26:52.:26:55.

cannot continue with everything being emphasised in the south-east

:26:56.:26:59.

at the cost of the rest of the country. Know the man who was

:27:00.:27:05.

credited with turning Liverpool's fortunes around in the 1980s has

:27:06.:27:11.

entered the debate. Lord has time has been commissioned by the present

:27:12.:27:14.

Government to look at of boosting economic growth in places like Hull

:27:15.:27:23.

-- Lord Heseltine. He says the present solution is devolving powers

:27:24.:27:26.

away from places like London. Speaking at what I am trying to show

:27:27.:27:29.

is that over the decades, you would be much better trying to show what

:27:30.:27:34.

you would do if you originated the idea is. You actually know what

:27:35.:27:40.

Leeds needs. What Bradford needs, what Hull needs, so let's start the

:27:41.:27:45.

other way. The best way to start is to find out who is in charge. That

:27:46.:27:52.

is why I believe indirectly elected mayors -- in directly elected. Speak

:27:53.:27:59.

that ministers have dismissed talks of struggling Northern cities being

:28:00.:28:03.

abandoned by Government, a move that is sure to make waves from the

:28:04.:28:07.

Humber to the Mersey -- ministers have dismissed talks.

:28:08.:28:12.

We are joined by Daniel Knowles, he is from the Economist, who wrote the

:28:13.:28:17.

piece, and by former deputy prime is to John Prescott, MP for Hull for 30

:28:18.:28:23.

years. What is your reaction to this proposal? I don't know what it

:28:24.:28:27.

means, it says that cities have grown in the report and smaller

:28:28.:28:31.

cities like Hull have not, but when we came into power after 18 years,

:28:32.:28:36.

this two speed economy was there through the boom and bust policies,

:28:37.:28:39.

housing down and investment down. They came in and they scrapped the

:28:40.:28:45.

RDAs, which Heseltine agrees with, we have these bodies that deal at

:28:46.:28:49.

the local level without resources or powers, so the two speed economy

:28:50.:28:53.

comes from the same policies they had then. Why have cities like

:28:54.:28:58.

Manchester or Newcastle or Leeds seen a revival, and recreated

:28:59.:29:03.

themselves for the 21st century? Because we give them the power and

:29:04.:29:08.

resources. Because of the size of the cities. There was a report which

:29:09.:29:13.

said that the ten cities that had grown considerably over that time

:29:14.:29:16.

was due to the development and planning of the RDAs and the extra

:29:17.:29:22.

resources given to them. The smaller ones are outside. This is why I

:29:23.:29:25.

think I disagree, the Economist would disagree with you. The

:29:26.:29:32.

regional development agencies, I think, were not a particular

:29:33.:29:36.

success. The reason big cities grew was sadly nothing to do with them. I

:29:37.:29:41.

was in Manchester recently and I asked if the cutting of the RDA

:29:42.:29:45.

affected them and they said no. Never mind that. What you want are

:29:46.:29:52.

the what you might call second-tier revival of the industrial cities,

:29:53.:29:57.

the Middlesbrough, Hull, Sheffield, they are part of that. Are you just

:29:58.:30:02.

saying we cannot save the city is the way we have Manchester or

:30:03.:30:05.

Newcastle, so the last person to leave should switch off the lights?

:30:06.:30:10.

What we are saying is what we shouldn't do, what we failed to do

:30:11.:30:15.

is spending money on a lot of things like the Pathfinder scheme, a lot of

:30:16.:30:20.

money on trying to prettify towns. We didn't spend anywhere near enough

:30:21.:30:24.

money on schools, we didn't do enough to reform the schools. You

:30:25.:30:27.

didn't do enough to turn around schools. Schools turned around in

:30:28.:30:33.

central London, they didn't... I'm not sure if you are right but how

:30:34.:30:38.

would that affect Hull? The main problem with Hull is that, the main

:30:39.:30:46.

problems are its weak skills and high-level of people without proper

:30:47.:30:49.

qualifications, and its weak transport links. The transportation

:30:50.:30:52.

industries, fishing industries, they have been going over time. Now we

:30:53.:30:58.

have major energy coming into the area, new industrialisation. You

:30:59.:31:03.

didn't even notice it. It hasn't even been confirmed. Why didn't you

:31:04.:31:12.

write about that? It is not going to be enough. What should we do? This

:31:13.:31:19.

is the point, the main thing in keeping young people and places like

:31:20.:31:22.

Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Hull and Wolverhampton, unfortunately, partly

:31:23.:31:27.

to poor schooling. In the Guardian yesterday they were teenagers in

:31:28.:31:30.

West Bromwich saying that they wanted to move to Birmingham. Where

:31:31.:31:37.

the jobs are! Exactly. Is it workers to work... This has been the

:31:38.:31:41.

argument, you can have a judgment whether to intervene, build the

:31:42.:31:44.

local economy or tell them to come down to London. The same Guardian

:31:45.:31:47.

report was saying that they were having problems here, as commuters,

:31:48.:31:52.

getting very anxious, they had no time... You were deputy prime

:31:53.:31:55.

Minster for ten years, shouldn't you have done more for Hull? I will not

:31:56.:32:03.

go into all the details, but we did. I was of there filming, you kindly

:32:04.:32:07.

arranged it, and it is a very depressed city. You could not have

:32:08.:32:19.

been there for long. You need the new base change, the major

:32:20.:32:24.

structural changes that take place in Hull. Siemens, it is all right

:32:25.:32:28.

saying, they have not settled it, but they settled the first part.

:32:29.:32:33.

That will transform Hull. All I am saying, yes, right about the

:32:34.:32:37.

difficulties, but have a look at how people are trying to deal with it,

:32:38.:32:41.

lifting up the ambitions of people. In terms of attracting investors

:32:42.:32:45.

like Siemens, a faster transport link, faster trains from Hull two

:32:46.:32:50.

leads... It is near to the water with Siemens, you are getting it all

:32:51.:32:56.

wrong. They want to build them out at sea. If you had closer links to

:32:57.:33:04.

not just London, but to York, to Leeds, to the other cities. These

:33:05.:33:09.

are weak transport links. Siemens is the biggest thing that will happen

:33:10.:33:13.

to Humberside, and energy concentration were 20% of our energy

:33:14.:33:17.

is coming in. It used to be cold, that has gone, now it is new

:33:18.:33:21.

energy. Why don't you report in a more optimistic we? Is Siemens, in

:33:22.:33:28.

your view, in enough to turn around Hull? I do not think it is, and I am

:33:29.:33:33.

sceptical of the idea of a huge energy revolution that will be

:33:34.:33:36.

enough. I think if Hull had... There is some hope, we have never said

:33:37.:33:41.

that Hull should disappear off the map. What we are saying is that it

:33:42.:33:48.

needs to focus itself, and it needs to... You should focus the

:33:49.:33:54.

arguments! He is an idea, why don't you go back up to Hull with John

:33:55.:34:01.

Prescott... It is a good idea! We might even send a camera. It is a

:34:02.:34:05.

good idea, I would be happy to do that.

:34:06.:34:14.

Thank you very much to both of you, time to get the answer to the quiz,

:34:15.:34:18.

who is threatening to go on strike in France next month? Not bakers,

:34:19.:34:23.

not firemen, not even Gerard Depardieu. Is it the footballers? It

:34:24.:34:29.

is the footballers. That is the correct answer, they will get a lot

:34:30.:34:33.

of sympathy! Will I feel sorry for them? Anyway, it has gone half past

:34:34.:34:38.

12, coming up in a moment, our regular look at what has been going

:34:39.:34:42.

on in European politics. For now, it is time to say goodbye to all our

:34:43.:34:47.

guests, particularly Bronwen... Don't forget the rugby league World

:34:48.:34:51.

Cup this weekend! We are going to be focusing on Europe, and we will be

:34:52.:34:57.

looking at David Cameron's attack on European red tape, the rise of

:34:58.:35:01.

anti-EU parties across the continent, allegations that American

:35:02.:35:06.

spies have been eavesdropping on Angela Merkel's mobile phone. First,

:35:07.:35:10.

the latest from Europe in just 60 seconds.

:35:11.:35:17.

National leaders gathered in Brussels this week to talk about

:35:18.:35:21.

growth, immigration and red tape for business. The EU agreed to restart

:35:22.:35:28.

taxation talks with Turkey, negotiations had been put on hold

:35:29.:35:31.

after the government crackdown on protests. MEPs voted for tougher

:35:32.:35:38.

scrutiny procedures for medical devices used in the human body, like

:35:39.:35:46.

breast or hip implants. In the wake of the Edward Snowden revelations,

:35:47.:35:50.

new laws have been proposed by the European Parliament's civil

:35:51.:35:54.

liberties committee, forcing companies to destroy an

:35:55.:35:57.

individual's personal data if requested.

:35:58.:36:01.

And have the Americans been tapping the German Chancellor, Angela

:36:02.:36:07.

Merkel's mobile phone. The US says it is not listening to her cause but

:36:08.:36:11.

left open the question of whether it has done in the past.

:36:12.:36:18.

-- calls. With us for the next 30 minutes, I

:36:19.:36:22.

am joined by two British members of the European Parliament, Claude

:36:23.:36:27.

Moraes and Jacqueline Foster. Welcome to you both. Let's kicked

:36:28.:36:30.

off with the spying row and allegations that American spies have

:36:31.:36:34.

been listening to private conversations of European leaders on

:36:35.:36:37.

their mobile phones, and at a press conference at the EU summit

:36:38.:36:42.

Chancellor Angela Merkel said that once seeds of mistrust had been

:36:43.:36:45.

sown, cooperation on intelligence matters would be made more

:36:46.:36:49.

difficult. Words that are probably true, but I'm not quite sure whether

:36:50.:36:53.

the European leaders are right to be outraged, or whether they are just

:36:54.:36:57.

being naive, what say you? I have always believed that spies normally

:36:58.:37:03.

spy. Even on their own side? I think they probably do, and I understand

:37:04.:37:06.

that they are pretty perturbed about this, and I am sure they will make

:37:07.:37:10.

up this little spat with the Americans. But you have also got to

:37:11.:37:14.

look at how all of this started, and of course this now comes down to

:37:15.:37:20.

Edward Snowden, this looks at the 58,000 pieces of information... Not

:37:21.:37:25.

how it started, how we found out! We need to be concentrating on that

:37:26.:37:29.

much more than the situation that we have arrived in, not least because

:37:30.:37:34.

when we have people who work for our security services, be it in America,

:37:35.:37:38.

Germany, France, or the UK, I think we have a right to be able to trust

:37:39.:37:43.

them. I think the German people will think they have a right to know

:37:44.:37:46.

whether the Americans are spying on their Chancellor or not. I am

:37:47.:37:49.

astonished that they do not know what is going on with their own

:37:50.:37:53.

security people, to be frank! You would think the German security

:37:54.:37:57.

would have quite a good bloc on Chancellor Merkel's phone, are they

:37:58.:38:06.

being naive? Everyone is talking about the economy, and migration

:38:07.:38:10.

should have been at this summit. The issue is stale and proportionality.

:38:11.:38:12.

What Snowden did was reveal something, the sheer scale of what

:38:13.:38:18.

the NSA is doing. What you'll find in more revelations is that the

:38:19.:38:27.

Asian countries are... If the European leaders are right to be

:38:28.:38:30.

outraged, at the revelation that America is by Don? Yes, because of

:38:31.:38:36.

the sheer scale of it. Spying goes on, it has always go on, and you

:38:37.:38:40.

will have former NSA people saying that you are being naive. Of course

:38:41.:38:47.

it has gone on. But it is the sheer scale of it, the depth of it. Never

:38:48.:38:52.

mind the scale, are they right to be outraged that Angela Merkel's mobile

:38:53.:39:00.

phone has been spied on? Yes. So why did the last Labour government spy

:39:01.:39:04.

on the G20 leaders? If they did, it was wrong. But why did they do it?

:39:05.:39:09.

Is it the case that friendly governments to spy on each other? As

:39:10.:39:13.

this government spied on the French throughout our negotiations to join

:39:14.:39:17.

what was then the Common market? The key point in looking at this, and we

:39:18.:39:24.

have got a European Parliamentary inquiry into that, the key point is

:39:25.:39:28.

scale and proportionality. We have to fight terrorism through spying,

:39:29.:39:34.

and spying on the South Koreans, you have to do that, that is part of

:39:35.:39:38.

realpolitik. But if you do it is disproportionately and you do it not

:39:39.:39:41.

for security reasons, there's going to be a problem. The president of

:39:42.:39:46.

the European Parliament are so outraged that he says Europe should

:39:47.:39:49.

call off its free-trade talks with America. He's been completely

:39:50.:39:56.

ridiculous, and all of this is naive, quite frankly. If anyone

:39:57.:39:59.

thinks for a moment that we, as people in this country or any other

:40:00.:40:05.

country that our intelligence and security forces, who spend their

:40:06.:40:07.

entire lives trying to keep us all in one piece are going to

:40:08.:40:12.

literally, you know, be doing things... They are doing things we

:40:13.:40:16.

don't really want to do, and I think most of the time we do not really

:40:17.:40:19.

know what they want to do what they need to do. So I think they need to

:40:20.:40:23.

all get over this. We will not get over it, but we are out of time. As

:40:24.:40:28.

we have been hearing, the EU summit in Brussels is in full swing, but

:40:29.:40:32.

rather than discussing how to consolidate the economic recovery,

:40:33.:40:40.

the gathering so far has been commented by the spying row. It is

:40:41.:40:43.

all a far cry from what David Cameron was hoping to discuss, red

:40:44.:40:45.

tape! He went to the summit arguing that UK firms were being throttled,

:40:46.:40:48.

his word, by European Union red tape. He wants a one in, one out

:40:49.:40:52.

rule, where every regulation and directive created should see another

:40:53.:40:58.

one being removed. Conservative sources say he wants to see 1500

:40:59.:41:03.

regulations reviewed, and he seems to have won some support from an

:41:04.:41:08.

unlikely area. Jose Manuel Barroso, the outgoing president of the

:41:09.:41:12.

European Commission, has conceded that many people suspect Europe,

:41:13.:41:16.

quote, generates too much red tape and interferes when it doesn't have

:41:17.:41:22.

to. He points out that since 2005 the commission has repealed almost

:41:23.:41:28.

5600 laws, so just how big a problem is this? More than 100 business

:41:29.:41:32.

leaders have written to the European Council, calling on them to cut red

:41:33.:41:36.

tape. Critics have suggested that David Cameron is trying to avoid

:41:37.:41:40.

tackling the tricky issue of renegotiating EU treaties, something

:41:41.:41:45.

he promised to do. So is Mr Cameron right, or is he making too much of

:41:46.:41:49.

this? He is absolutely right, and this is not just a recent agenda of

:41:50.:41:53.

the Conservative Party. When I was elected in 1999, one of the key

:41:54.:41:57.

points in the manifesto was that we would cut red tape. Now, it maybe

:41:58.:42:01.

they have got to a point, where the commissioner said, they have

:42:02.:42:05.

abolished 5000 regulations... They have not told us how many they have

:42:06.:42:14.

introduced since then! If I a pound for every politician that promise to

:42:15.:42:17.

cut red tape, I would not need to city, I would be on the beach in the

:42:18.:42:19.

Caribbean. Gordon Brown once promised a bonfire of the quangos!

:42:20.:42:23.

Alex Salmond promised a bonfire of the quangos! Let me start with that

:42:24.:42:30.

admission, we said it key 00, it is motherhood and apple pie. David

:42:31.:42:35.

Cameron has got some substantial people to say it, cutting red tape

:42:36.:42:40.

is a good thing, we want that to happen. Is it going to happen? This

:42:41.:42:44.

one in, one out rule needs to have credibility, and the issue is that

:42:45.:42:50.

some regulation, some of it is a good thing, so for example new

:42:51.:42:53.

patient rights, new health labelling, that is good

:42:54.:43:00.

bureaucracy, unfortunately. Let her come into that. I really have to

:43:01.:43:06.

come in here. You can! Thank you very much, Andrew! The whole point

:43:07.:43:09.

on this is that we know we are bogged down with red tape, and when

:43:10.:43:13.

I went into the Parliament in 1999, unfortunately, we had a Labour

:43:14.:43:17.

government in place, so for the entire time, most of the time, until

:43:18.:43:20.

the last three years, your colleagues and you, and others, the

:43:21.:43:26.

left love red tape. They made more regulations than have ever been made

:43:27.:43:31.

in its history. Though I am very sorry, but you need to look at what

:43:32.:43:36.

happened. That is simply not true. No, let him reply. The problem with

:43:37.:43:41.

these fake statements is that they do need to be tested, and this is a

:43:42.:43:44.

problem with what David Cameron is doing. We need to cut red tape, we

:43:45.:43:48.

need to be on the side of wealth creation, but if you do an exercise

:43:49.:43:54.

like this, trumpeting to Europe and the world, and then you end up with

:43:55.:43:59.

a situation where you say you want a single market at the same time, more

:44:00.:44:04.

bureaucracy, or you do not tell business that there is one trademark

:44:05.:44:07.

for the whole of the EU, one paid and for the whole of the EU, which

:44:08.:44:11.

businesses in London actually want. -- patent. That is a good thing,

:44:12.:44:19.

Andrew, that is a good thing. We can... I can give you one example, a

:44:20.:44:23.

ease of regulation which came through, I was working in a high-end

:44:24.:44:28.

aerospace sector, and this particular regulation, now it

:44:29.:44:33.

impacts on all of our manufacturing. What is it? It is the chemicals

:44:34.:44:38.

regulation, it is impacting on building cars, the aerospace sector,

:44:39.:44:43.

the space sector, any thing with high-end engineering, whether it is

:44:44.:44:47.

shipbuilding, Kamel led doing what they are doing... Why is that a bad

:44:48.:44:54.

thing? It is overregulation. What it does is it tries to ban substances

:44:55.:44:57.

which we could not actually build things without, in actual fact, and

:44:58.:45:01.

what it could result in, what it could result in is that we import

:45:02.:45:05.

goods from other parts of the world where they do not have

:45:06.:45:09.

overregulation, but we cannot make the goods which we need to export

:45:10.:45:16.

ourselves. that is a very interesting example but we have to

:45:17.:45:23.

move on. I bet you both a fiver that nothing comes out of this. That the

:45:24.:45:30.

-- good UKIP find themselves with more allies in the anti-Europe camp

:45:31.:45:37.

at the next year's European elections?

:45:38.:45:42.

Here in Strasbourg, there was a time when EU scepticism was seen as the

:45:43.:45:49.

founders of the project is heresy -- Bova finders.

:45:50.:45:53.

But even those true believers know that by May, there will be many

:45:54.:46:00.

MEPs who will across what many consider to be the dark side. In

:46:01.:46:03.

this room are a handful of the Europe and freedom chrissie group,

:46:04.:46:14.

or EST, which contains many of the UKIP members, among others, who

:46:15.:46:19.

desire to see the EU radically changed. They expect to see their

:46:20.:46:24.

numbers swell next year. We believe in Europe but in a different Europe

:46:25.:46:33.

and that Europeans can be unified without most of our nation's

:46:34.:46:44.

sovereignty being abandoned. Not every Euro-sceptic MP once their

:46:45.:46:49.

country to leave the EU, but there is a dynamic going on within Euro

:46:50.:46:52.

scepticism and they arrive here with debts that will certainly hard and

:46:53.:46:57.

while they are here. Even when the economic situation finally changes,

:46:58.:47:03.

I hope soon, even then I don't see the EU going back to what it was

:47:04.:47:07.

before. So many eyes have been opened by the crisis, so many

:47:08.:47:10.

opinions have changed and it has become mainstream to be critical

:47:11.:47:17.

towards Europe. That prospect has their pro-European MEPs to suggest

:47:18.:47:21.

that Euro-sceptics will try and clog up and wreck the functions of the

:47:22.:47:26.

existing EU. They do not have opposite ideas but they want to

:47:27.:47:30.

frustrate the process and that is the best result they believe they

:47:31.:47:33.

can get, and of course it has an impact. We are out chamber of

:47:34.:47:36.

different voices and everybody has the ability to change the outcome.

:47:37.:47:46.

People tend to say you are not part of the parliament, but at least we

:47:47.:47:50.

are filling seats. But Euro-sceptics may not make the full impact their

:47:51.:47:58.

numbers might suggest. The far right parties both expect to do well and

:47:59.:48:04.

would like to lead and harness a Euro-sceptic surge. UKIP, who Le Pen

:48:05.:48:09.

says are immature, have indicated they want nothing to do with the far

:48:10.:48:14.

right. We're not the only ones who would want to see them split. So you

:48:15.:48:18.

have the radical ones left on the far right and then you have a bigger

:48:19.:48:22.

group, and there will be a split, because nobody would like to be

:48:23.:48:30.

associated with the far right in Hungary or Poland. I want to work

:48:31.:48:34.

with other Euro-sceptic parties, nobody with any far right

:48:35.:48:37.

connections. That is the most important thing. But if, as expected

:48:38.:48:42.

by all sides, Euro-sceptic MPs do win more seats in May, politicians

:48:43.:48:48.

like Daniel may not have do. That was Giles Dilnot reporting. We

:48:49.:48:51.

have been led accurately to join by Paul Nuttall, the deputy leader of

:48:52.:48:56.

UKIP -- we have been joined by Paul Nuttall. Marine Le Pen, the leader

:48:57.:49:04.

of the National front in France, she told BBC Newsnight that her National

:49:05.:49:08.

front party and UKIP share similar values. What are they? Non-, really.

:49:09.:49:15.

I have never met Le Pen in my life. European history is different to

:49:16.:49:19.

ours and the fact that Marine Le Pen is growing in France and we are

:49:20.:49:23.

growing in Britain highlights that. We have no basis of fascism in this

:49:24.:49:30.

country. The only fascist party in this country is doing badly. This is

:49:31.:49:37.

a kind of protest from a UKIP, it is moderate and liberal and we have

:49:38.:49:39.

nothing in common with the far right. Is it your view that Marie Le

:49:40.:49:48.

Pen's National Front is a fascist party? My view is that it was borne

:49:49.:49:53.

out of fascism and we are not. But is it still a fascist party? It

:49:54.:49:59.

looks to me that is if, if the father is still involved, Holocaust

:50:00.:50:03.

denial and all that, it looks pretty fascist. I have never met Marie Le

:50:04.:50:08.

Pen and we would not be joining this grouping. I don't think she is a

:50:09.:50:12.

Holocaust denier, but her father certainly was. That is what I said.

:50:13.:50:18.

Does this mean that under no circumstances, would you join a

:50:19.:50:21.

grouping in the European Parliament after the next elections which

:50:22.:50:26.

included the French National Front. No, absolutely 100%. We are

:50:27.:50:33.

moderate, we Euro-sceptics and the majority of this country want a

:50:34.:50:35.

referendum, want to leave the European Union and people in this

:50:36.:50:38.

country are moderate and we are representing their views and I

:50:39.:50:42.

suspect, as a result, we will go on and Windows European elections and

:50:43.:50:46.

after that, we will not be a grouping in the European Parliament

:50:47.:50:51.

with the French National Front. Lets take full sake of argument the

:50:52.:50:55.

description of yourself and UKIP. Mind you face a problem that most of

:50:56.:51:00.

your potential Euro-sceptic allies, and I think we will see a growth of

:51:01.:51:04.

Euro-sceptic parties in the European Parliament, they will nearly all

:51:05.:51:08.

tend to come from what you might call the hard right. Not all of

:51:09.:51:18.

them. There are others, you interviewed the Finns, they are not

:51:19.:51:20.

from a hard drive. There will be a grouping of people who are from the

:51:21.:51:25.

moderate right, they want to come out of Europe. The rise of extremism

:51:26.:51:30.

in Europe, and I had a debate about this in the European Parliament, is

:51:31.:51:34.

caused by the European Union itself and its policies. You just have to

:51:35.:51:37.

take the example of Greece, where they are forcing posterity upon the

:51:38.:51:41.

Greek people and not allowing them to do what needs to be done, which

:51:42.:51:46.

is leave the EU row. The European Union is driving extremism in

:51:47.:51:52.

Europe. -- the euro. Just stay with us. Euro scepticism seem to be a

:51:53.:51:56.

British dish but is now being served all over the continent. It is worse

:51:57.:52:01.

than that. Paul is desperately trying to keep him and his party

:52:02.:52:06.

apart from Marie Le Pen and I don't blame him. Marie Le Pen and her

:52:07.:52:11.

voters have stated very clearly that they want to create a kind of tea

:52:12.:52:16.

party. Rightly or wrongly, you will have more of these people at the

:52:17.:52:22.

next May. It is predicted 30, 30 5%. In the European Parliament? Yes.

:52:23.:52:31.

Now, it creates laws, as we have discussed. They want to become that

:52:32.:52:36.

kind of Tea Party, abstract things. Most of them do not attend, they

:52:37.:52:42.

don't do any work there. But if they go around obstructing things, that

:52:43.:52:45.

is one of the many reasons people shouldn't vote for them. What is

:52:46.:52:50.

your reaction? My reaction is I am not surprised at all and the Le

:52:51.:52:56.

Pens have had a very good results recently in France. They are now the

:52:57.:53:01.

largest party in France and have won a key by-election in the south. So

:53:02.:53:06.

the question really is whatever Paul Nuttall and UKIP want to do is the

:53:07.:53:11.

concern about the rise across the entire European Union, and the

:53:12.:53:14.

reason we have this is because for so long, we have not been able to

:53:15.:53:18.

have a frank debate about the concerns that ordinary people have,

:53:19.:53:22.

the man and woman in the street, about how we are dealing with

:53:23.:53:26.

immigration issues. When we have tried to do it in the past, not

:53:27.:53:29.

going back that many years, we had all sorts of accusations and here we

:53:30.:53:35.

are down the line with other pressures that are going to take

:53:36.:53:37.

place at the beginning of next year and so we need to have these

:53:38.:53:43.

debates. Paul Nuttall, are you still claiming to be on track to be the

:53:44.:53:46.

largest party at the European elections in Britain? I think we

:53:47.:53:53.

will be. Jacqueline Foster can talk about immigration control but last

:53:54.:53:58.

year, it was 176,000 net, and David Cameron is talking about bringing

:53:59.:54:01.

Turkey into the European Union, which will open the door to 72

:54:02.:54:05.

million Turks. You cannot have your cake and eat it. We have no cake and

:54:06.:54:10.

we are not eating at all. Thank you for joining us, no doubt we will

:54:11.:54:14.

have a chance to go into these arguments is the European elections

:54:15.:54:18.

loom next year. And here, we like to give you the lowdown on how the EU

:54:19.:54:22.

operates. We have told you have a council functions, had the single

:54:23.:54:28.

market came about -- how the council functions, how the single market

:54:29.:54:32.

came about. Where can you go to learn every single detail about the

:54:33.:54:37.

EU? Adam Fleming knows. He has been to the College of Europe in Bruges.

:54:38.:54:51.

Cobbles, dreaming spires, students on bikes. It is Bruges, where you

:54:52.:54:58.

will find the EU 's very own Oxbridge, the College of Europe. At

:54:59.:55:03.

two o'clock, it is professor does Susan's lecture -- professor

:55:04.:55:13.

D'Souza's. At 4pm, it is a law class with professor Tiradimas. And then

:55:14.:55:25.

more law with profession and has lead professor Jacquet. This time in

:55:26.:55:31.

French. This academic hothouse is a university with is 40% funding with

:55:32.:55:36.

Brussels, and it students tend to get very good careers indeed. Nick

:55:37.:55:41.

Clegg studied here and it is where he met his wife who is now a top

:55:42.:55:45.

lawyer. The Danish Prime Minister is an alumnus and the EU ambassador to

:55:46.:55:48.

the UN, along with countless other people in high places. I can of

:55:49.:55:55.

course understand it sometimes the impression is created of a Bruges

:55:56.:56:00.

Mafia, as it is sometimes referred to. This is an unduly negative view

:56:01.:56:12.

because there is a lot of... So who are these bright young

:56:13.:56:16.

things? The country with the biggest number of students is France, with

:56:17.:56:21.

57, closely followed by Italy. There are 25 from the UK, which is less

:56:22.:56:25.

than the number from Poland and about the same as the number from

:56:26.:56:31.

Turkey. Food, lodging and tuition cost 22,000 euros a year, but many

:56:32.:56:39.

students are sponsored by their country's Government. Although the

:56:40.:56:41.

British Foreign Office funds just one place these days. So what it

:56:42.:56:51.

like being British here? We have discussion classes where we talk

:56:52.:57:01.

about methods of European integration and it is interesting to

:57:02.:57:10.

hear how it looks from the Dutch point of view from the French point

:57:11.:57:21.

of view. From a Turkish point of view. And it has become networking

:57:22.:57:30.

Nirvana for students from further afield, like Josh, who is

:57:31.:57:42.

Australian. Everybody has to eat their meals together, we are all

:57:43.:57:49.

living in residence. You are stuck with everyone, forced to get along.

:57:50.:58:03.

This is the Hall of Fame. Every year, a big-name addresses the

:58:04.:58:14.

student body. In 1989, it was Margaret Thatcher, with her speech

:58:15.:58:21.

one of her most famous. We have not successfully rolled back

:58:22.:58:29.

the frontiers of the state in Britain only to see them reimposed

:58:30.:58:37.

at European level, with a European superstate exercising a new

:58:38.:58:44.

dominance from Brussels. I don't think there is a conspiracy. thank

:58:45.:58:54.

you to my guests, bye-bye!

:58:55.:58:57.

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