29/11/2013 Daily Politics


29/11/2013

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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After noon. Welcome to the Daily Politics. With the war -- will the

:00:38.:00:46.

war over energy prices ever end? The Prime Minister wants to reduce green

:00:47.:00:50.

levies. The government has denied it has asked the big six firms to hold

:00:51.:00:56.

their prices until 2015. Labour said it will introduce a law to freeze

:00:57.:01:01.

prices for 20 months if it wins the general election. Mr Cameron said

:01:02.:01:05.

that is not achievable. Will it be Mission impossible

:01:06.:01:08.

mission accomplished? We will be asking if our salmon's White Paper

:01:09.:01:15.

gets your vote. -- Alex Salmond. Time could be costly for the

:01:16.:01:19.

European Referendum Bill. If it doesn't go through today it may

:01:20.:01:23.

never make it to the Lords. All unsuspecting politicians, we say

:01:24.:01:31.

beware the killer question. Which year did Manchester United

:01:32.:01:32.

leave the football the? Last year. She is in good company, I have no

:01:33.:01:46.

idea. All that in the next hour. With this

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we have freelance journalist, former head of the SNP policy unit, Alex

:01:53.:01:57.

Bell, and Anne McElvoy from the Economist.

:01:58.:02:00.

Hands up those who want to stay at home and look after the baby. Very

:02:01.:02:06.

soon it will be easier for the mother or father to do so because

:02:07.:02:10.

the government is committed to introducing shared parental leave

:02:11.:02:14.

for new parents by April 2015. I wonder why then? Maybe the election?

:02:15.:02:21.

Surely not. The Deputy prime ministers said the new rights would

:02:22.:02:24.

cater for a growing desire by many men to play a more hands-on role

:02:25.:02:28.

when it comes to being a father and stop women feeling they have to

:02:29.:02:31.

choose between having a career or a baby.

:02:32.:02:40.

If you were to have another child is something you would avail? It

:02:41.:02:47.

depends what place we are in in terms of our work but I would like

:02:48.:02:51.

to have, and I am sure all couples would like to have, the freedom to

:02:52.:02:56.

make their own decision. It is an old-fashioned idea that the state

:02:57.:03:01.

says the dad will only take two weeks off, it will happen straight

:03:02.:03:04.

after the baby has arrived and the mother must take the remaining

:03:05.:03:08.

time. We sweeping away these old-fashioned rules so parents can

:03:09.:03:17.

make up their own mind. Not often you get an answer that clear-cut! Is

:03:18.:03:23.

this a good idea? I think it is a good idea. Many more households have

:03:24.:03:32.

two people who work and yet maternity leave arrangements have

:03:33.:03:36.

been skewed towards the mother. The way the economy is at the moment,

:03:37.:03:40.

who knows who will earn more? Who will have to go part-time? Couples

:03:41.:03:46.

need that flexibility. I do think broadly it is the right way to go.

:03:47.:03:53.

Do not think it is bizarre that he be doing it now? I would not think

:03:54.:04:01.

this is the thing to establish my power at the Cabinet table. The

:04:02.:04:05.

sentiment is our fine. But it is an upper middle-class policy for a

:04:06.:04:13.

party desperately losing support. I'm surprised you say that. The

:04:14.:04:21.

demographic is the squeezed middle. It goes further down the income sale

:04:22.:04:27.

than Alex is suggesting. -- scale. People are quite happy to balance

:04:28.:04:33.

things in a way that perhaps used to be middle-class. It is now much

:04:34.:04:40.

broader. When you actually polled voters, the people who will come

:04:41.:04:44.

back and tell you they want this are probably more likely the upper

:04:45.:04:48.

middle-class. I accept your arguments but if you are trying to

:04:49.:04:54.

chase a vote, it seems to be a funny way to go about it. I hope you're

:04:55.:04:59.

not suggesting that he only did it because Miriam told him! I think if

:05:00.:05:08.

we listen to two more -- more to Miriam than him on policy, it would

:05:09.:05:16.

be better. Older women would not want to be their daughters to be as

:05:17.:05:21.

constrained as they work. You often get that grandmother vote. Big

:05:22.:05:25.

businesses can probably cope with this. It could be a smaller for -- a

:05:26.:05:35.

problem for smaller businesses. This is a case where if you are running a

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small business, you will be more irked by this. You cannot just

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handed over. Andrew, you do Alex's job and he will do yours. You have

:05:46.:05:52.

to look at businesses, particularly those with fewer employees, and ask

:05:53.:05:57.

how they are going to cope. A lot of businesses are in that position and

:05:58.:06:00.

can cope. Now it's time for our daily quiz.

:06:01.:06:04.

The question for today is: Which of these men has the highest IQ? Boris

:06:05.:06:09.

Johnson. Nick Clegg. David Cameron. Ed Miliband. At the end of the show

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we'll see if anyone has the brains to answer this one. It's the Friday

:06:17.:06:20.

before the Autumn Statement, so the gloves are off in the battle over

:06:21.:06:23.

rising energy bills, with the Government and Labour both

:06:24.:06:26.

attempting to seize the initiative. Remember Labour's party conference

:06:27.:06:28.

in September when Ed Miliband shocked the pundits, pledging energy

:06:29.:06:34.

price freezes if Labour are elected? The Tories warned of Marx and market

:06:35.:06:37.

intervention, but they've had to take action. So instead of forcing a

:06:38.:06:44.

freeze, apparently they've just asked for one until the election.

:06:45.:06:48.

Although this morning, the Treasury deny this - they were just asking

:06:49.:06:51.

energy companies whether bills would come down if green taxes were

:06:52.:06:54.

scrapped. So what's behind the problem? Labour accuse the energy

:06:55.:06:56.

companies of profiteering - the average energy bill is around

:06:57.:06:59.

?1,300. But the Tories blame the previous government's green levies,

:07:00.:07:03.

which make up 8% of the average bill, and the energy companies

:07:04.:07:11.

agree. That is about ?112 per year. They point to government

:07:12.:07:14.

requirements on them to tackle climate change and fuel poverty,

:07:15.:07:17.

claiming they only make around 5% profit in total - though the profits

:07:18.:07:21.

for the power they generate sits at a very toasty 20%. The energy

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companies say the problem is those pesky wholesale prices. Ofgem

:07:25.:07:32.

disagrees, claiming wholesale costs have risen by less than 2% in the

:07:33.:07:40.

last year. This is what David Cameron had to

:07:41.:07:44.

say to this morning. I have said all along that I want to help households

:07:45.:07:50.

and families by getting sustainably lower energy prices. The only way

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that you can do that is by increasing competition and rolling

:07:54.:07:58.

back the costs of some levies on people's bills. I said that is what

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we are going to do. That is what we are going to do and it is a positive

:08:03.:08:07.

step forward. That is a world away from making a vague promise about

:08:08.:08:11.

something you may do in 20 months with no idea of how you do it. That

:08:12.:08:15.

is a con. We are dealing with real policy that can make a real

:08:16.:08:20.

difference. That was the Prime Minister in Vilnius. We are joined

:08:21.:08:24.

by Tom Greatrex, Shadow Energy Minister. And Stephen Fitzpatrick.

:08:25.:08:32.

Do you have a clear idea yet of what the Government is planning? No. I

:08:33.:08:43.

think we have just had a another day of confusion from the Government.

:08:44.:08:47.

They have a record of doing that over the last year or so. If the

:08:48.:08:51.

Government were to get an agreement to freeze energy prices, and to get

:08:52.:08:55.

an agreement to cut some of the green levies, that would be quite an

:08:56.:09:08.

achievement? The energy companies, a day or two after Ed Miliband's

:09:09.:09:12.

conference at which she talked about the green levies, that is something

:09:13.:09:16.

they focused the debate on and which the Government sought to respond

:09:17.:09:19.

to. But does not deal with the fundamental issues about the way the

:09:20.:09:26.

market works. The reforms which we proposed, and which Ed Miliband and

:09:27.:09:30.

Caroline Flint are talking about today, is about trying to reset that

:09:31.:09:34.

market so it is clear and transparent for consumers and for

:09:35.:09:42.

industry. What should be done? I think it has become quite a

:09:43.:09:46.

political issue. It has always been a political issue. It is much more

:09:47.:09:52.

so. We would like to see action this winter. We would like to see a

:09:53.:09:55.

greater focus on competition that will help some customers, and better

:09:56.:10:00.

regulation on the big six from Ofgem. It will help those customers

:10:01.:10:08.

on likely to switch. -- unlikely. Some of the political noises are

:10:09.:10:12.

helpful. But when we talk about things taking effect in two or three

:10:13.:10:17.

years, that is not what customers are interested in. You will not get

:10:18.:10:21.

reform of the marketplace and you will not get better regulation this

:10:22.:10:27.

side of the winter. There is nothing that would stop real reforms being

:10:28.:10:32.

implemented or a different mandate from Ofgem being announced in the

:10:33.:10:37.

Autumn Statement. That would be to intervene, not necessarily set

:10:38.:10:41.

pricing, but certainly do away with some of the profiteering from the

:10:42.:10:46.

big six. A lot of the profits are made from a relatively small number

:10:47.:10:50.

of profits, customers on the oldest tariffs. Ofgem have talked about

:10:51.:10:55.

simplifying the market. We hear these ideas from the political

:10:56.:10:59.

parties. It is great that we are talking about. But if the Government

:11:00.:11:03.

set to Ofgem, we want you to do something about overcharging today,

:11:04.:11:08.

they could figure it out. It could happen very quickly. You do not

:11:09.:11:12.

think there is the political will or the expertise? Perhaps less so the

:11:13.:11:19.

will, maybe more so the expertise. The big energy companies have done a

:11:20.:11:24.

fantastic job of convincing everybody that it is really

:11:25.:11:28.

complicated but it is not. I look at my bill and it is pretty

:11:29.:11:32.

complicated. The market is structured in a way where the big

:11:33.:11:36.

companies have found a way to make it very complicated, very difficult

:11:37.:11:39.

for us to understand what is going on. You must really regret that a

:11:40.:11:46.

Labour created this market? The ability for the big companies to

:11:47.:11:53.

integrate was lifted by John Major. You continued with it. We have seen

:11:54.:12:00.

in the last few years the extent to which it has become more of a

:12:01.:12:05.

problem. There is more and more evidence, and Ofgem have uncovered

:12:06.:12:11.

some of it, that actually this is not working. I understand it is not

:12:12.:12:15.

working but would it not give you more credibility if you put your

:12:16.:12:19.

hand up and said that during the 13 years you have encouraged the

:12:20.:12:28.

integration market. --? We reduce it from a couple of dozen 26 and we got

:12:29.:12:32.

it wrong. Now we have seen the error of our ways and we are going to

:12:33.:12:35.

change it. Have you seen the error of your ways? The evidence has

:12:36.:12:40.

mounted particularly in the last two or three years. The last election in

:12:41.:12:46.

2010, if you go back to the Labour manifesto, that made the point about

:12:47.:12:50.

Ofgem needing more powers. The evidence since then has mounted. The

:12:51.:12:54.

Government should act. We tried to amend the energy Bill to do these

:12:55.:12:59.

things. If the Government turn tomorrow and say they are going to

:13:00.:13:02.

do it, nobody would be more delighted than me. No mea culpa? The

:13:03.:13:12.

evidence is clear. The situation has happened where we have a market now

:13:13.:13:16.

that is very difficult for people. Will Labour do anything? We will do

:13:17.:13:22.

something about the way the eco-scheme works. When this comment

:13:23.:13:27.

talks about the green levies, 60% of it has been introduced by the

:13:28.:13:31.

coalition. The eco-scheme has demonstrated it is very if

:13:32.:13:38.

inefficient. You talk a lot about the need to get the market to

:13:39.:13:43.

operate better. I understand that. You also talk about the need for a

:13:44.:13:46.

price freeze to get on top of prices. Under the Labour climate

:13:47.:13:53.

change act of 2008, energy prices are specifically designed to rise by

:13:54.:14:00.

40% by 2020. It was your policy to increase energy prices. I'm just

:14:01.:14:06.

slightly puzzled that now you are not opposition, having set in motion

:14:07.:14:14.

an event which was a specific purpose of the act, to increase

:14:15.:14:20.

energy prices by 40%. You are now complaining. The purpose of the act

:14:21.:14:26.

and the purpose of the action that happened, we had a Conservative

:14:27.:14:32.

minister said yesterday it was his idea. That makes you all complicit!

:14:33.:14:38.

New generating capacity is required. You have to think how you best do

:14:39.:14:43.

that in a way that provides energy security. And you also have two

:14:44.:14:47.

minimise emissions. You have decisions to be made about how the

:14:48.:14:53.

infrastructure is renewed. Do you have an oversupply of gas, or a

:14:54.:14:57.

mixture of renewables and other forms of technology? The coalition

:14:58.:15:02.

has been in power for more than three and a half years. It has been

:15:03.:15:06.

clear for some time that the energy market in this country does not

:15:07.:15:12.

operate like a market should. It may not be a cartel but it is not a

:15:13.:15:17.

market. A cartel implies illegality and collusion. It is not a free

:15:18.:15:24.

market. Or even a market. Do you detect any sense that the Government

:15:25.:15:29.

has addressed this and knows what to do about it? They are listening, I

:15:30.:15:38.

suppose. It is a start! It is a great start. When I hear about

:15:39.:15:43.

infrastructure and I hear policies that are being announced like a

:15:44.:15:48.

price freeze at some point in the future where the price is not set or

:15:49.:15:53.

defined yet, you don't get certainty for consumers but you create

:15:54.:15:57.

uncertainty for investors. That is the problem might have got. This

:15:58.:16:02.

issue has become so political now that it looks like everybody is

:16:03.:16:05.

trying to reduce a very complex issue into a simple slogan to

:16:06.:16:10.

increase votes. That may be politics. But energy is very

:16:11.:16:14.

important. A lot of people struggle to pay their bills. The last thing

:16:15.:16:18.

anybody want is for the lights to go out. We need to focus on value for

:16:19.:16:22.

money, transparency, competition, the best way to lower bills in the

:16:23.:16:28.

long term, but it is going to take a long time. People will die this

:16:29.:16:33.

winter? This annoys me so much. Ofgem have announced a whole list of

:16:34.:16:36.

false and problems with the market that reads like... There are ten

:16:37.:16:44.

pages are problems with the market. Their solution is, energy companies

:16:45.:16:49.

can have fought tariffs and we will see where we are in 2014. Four

:16:50.:16:53.

winters. How many people will be affected?

:16:54.:17:00.

An increasingly large chunk of our electricity bills is not made up of

:17:01.:17:06.

wholesale generation, profits, green levies, it is made up of the cost of

:17:07.:17:12.

distribution. Distribution costs are regulated by Ofgem, but they are

:17:13.:17:16.

becoming a bigger and bigger part and that is because of the climate

:17:17.:17:21.

change act of 2008, you have put a lot of electricity generation in

:17:22.:17:24.

areas that are nowhere near the National Grid so we have to build

:17:25.:17:27.

new grid lines from onshore, offshore, to get there, that is a

:17:28.:17:36.

big part of the energy price rise. The network costs will go up and

:17:37.:17:39.

then they will level out. Ofgem, you have seen, last week, have used

:17:40.:17:44.

their role in terms of directing some of the costs. We moved the

:17:45.:17:54.

generation, you said. You did. You have got the Dorset array which is a

:17:55.:18:01.

huge offshore Park which is being done. To connect back to the

:18:02.:18:05.

National Grid, it will have to go through the new Forest. How much

:18:06.:18:09.

will that cost? And in Scotland, the Bewdley line that took ten years.

:18:10.:18:17.

That is a consequence of Labour, Conservative, and Lib Dem policy. It

:18:18.:18:21.

is a consequence of having your new generation capacity are partly from

:18:22.:18:27.

Newton -- renewables, and you do that in the best places where you

:18:28.:18:30.

get the most efficiency. You would be arguing if you put them on sites

:18:31.:18:33.

where all the most efficiency. You would be arguing if you put them on

:18:34.:18:36.

sites were all power stations were, why are you building at there? I

:18:37.:18:41.

would be arguing whatever you do. Your thoughts on energy?

:18:42.:18:47.

If you look down the table in Europe Britain sits in the middle in terms

:18:48.:18:51.

of its energy costs but you wouldn't think that to listen to the debate.

:18:52.:18:56.

Not if you strip out the government taxation and VAT. Our wholesale

:18:57.:19:03.

prices are among the highest in Europe. Nonetheless, I have lived in

:19:04.:19:11.

Germany and other countries, they simply accept the green argument at

:19:12.:19:15.

the moment more than we do did a soon-to-be one of the problems that

:19:16.:19:20.

has been the policy with both parties, the focus was on Green

:19:21.:19:24.

parties, if you looked at the Conservatives, they were vying to be

:19:25.:19:30.

greener with each other. You have a kind of consequence, I know there

:19:31.:19:33.

are many other things, you have made good points about the way the market

:19:34.:19:40.

is, it is missed Richard. You wanted to sign up to this, and now you have

:19:41.:19:47.

the consequences. Whatever we do we have got power stations coming to

:19:48.:19:51.

the end of their lives, some you can extend for a little bit, which

:19:52.:19:58.

source of power do you use? Your message is very different to the

:19:59.:20:01.

green message before the election. I know we will be back to this.

:20:02.:20:08.

This is why would voters lose faith in politicians, it is not that

:20:09.:20:13.

complicated, it has been apparent for a long time, fuel poverty

:20:14.:20:18.

campaigners have been making this transparent, nobody can pretend they

:20:19.:20:21.

didn't know, they couldn't regulate that system. There are other

:20:22.:20:24.

examples of a generation of other industries in Britain at the moment

:20:25.:20:27.

which do that. Nor can anyone pretend this is essentially a

:20:28.:20:32.

regressive tax on poor people to pay for the lecture is politicians

:20:33.:20:38.

compose. We will be back on energy prices on

:20:39.:20:43.

the Autumn Statement live here on BBC Two on Thursday. We start at

:20:44.:20:47.

10:45am because the Chancellor has bought the Autumn Statement

:20:48.:20:51.

forward. He has got a lot to talk about. Maybe by Thursday he will

:20:52.:20:55.

have worked out what he will do. Thank you both of you for coming in.

:20:56.:21:01.

The debate over Scotland's future, the week when Alex Salmond publishes

:21:02.:21:05.

white paper on is that -- independence, George Osborne claimed

:21:06.:21:08.

it would cost the Scots thousands of pounds each, David Cameron was

:21:09.:21:19.

accused of being a big fairty. Here is a flavour of the debate.

:21:20.:21:25.

This white paper is the most detailed blueprint that any people

:21:26.:21:34.

have ever been offered anywhere in the world. As a basis for becoming

:21:35.:21:36.

an independent country. If the 650 pages we have here, there

:21:37.:21:51.

is just one page devoted to Scotland's financial position,

:21:52.:21:51.

economic position, in the future. Within an hour of this publication

:21:52.:22:06.

Alistair Darling described it as being totally ridiculous, not of any

:22:07.:22:10.

worth whatsoever, which amazed me because I must congratulate that man

:22:11.:22:15.

on speed reading, because via my estimation that is 3000 words per

:22:16.:22:22.

minute. Can the first Minister tell me whether his government, his

:22:23.:22:27.

ministers or his officials have received any feedback from any other

:22:28.:22:32.

European Union country about Scotland's membership of the

:22:33.:22:38.

European Union? Today in Brussels the European commission spokesman

:22:39.:22:41.

repeated their view that new countries have to apply from

:22:42.:22:47.

scratch. The treaty provides some clear articles when it comes to the

:22:48.:22:54.

need for new third country to apply to the European Union if they want

:22:55.:22:56.

to join. Well he stop being pathetic? I am

:22:57.:23:10.

enjoying the debate we are having now.

:23:11.:23:15.

Independence gives us the opportunity to make choices, to

:23:16.:23:19.

spend less on weapons of mass destruction, and more on educating

:23:20.:23:29.

our children. I am reassured when I look at the questions and Anne said

:23:30.:23:33.

that on page 564 we will still be allowed his" add we are going to

:23:34.:23:40.

have the same time zones. -- allowed to speak English. We are still going

:23:41.:23:44.

to join the Eurovision Song contest. Joining us now from Glasgow, home of

:23:45.:23:54.

the Commonwealth games next year, John Curtice, profession of politics

:23:55.:24:04.

at the University of Strathclyde. Wellcome to the programme. We have

:24:05.:24:07.

had the white paper for a couple of days. It is not long for a

:24:08.:24:11.

prospective but give us your thoughts as the dust begins to

:24:12.:24:17.

settle, when this great debate this. There are two aspects we should look

:24:18.:24:22.

at, the first is what difference has made to the toing and froing between

:24:23.:24:27.

the parties, who is arguing about what? Although it has made some

:24:28.:24:32.

difference, in particular simply by laying out what claimed to be a

:24:33.:24:38.

detailed perspective, one of the things they are able to do is save

:24:39.:24:45.

to the no side where is your covenant? What happens to Scotland

:24:46.:24:55.

if they decide to vote no? The truth is the Conservatives and the Labour

:24:56.:24:57.

Party are still trying to work out what they might wish to propose in

:24:58.:25:01.

the way of more devolution for Scotland, and then there is the

:25:02.:25:06.

question of whether or not they agree. The truth is the party is not

:25:07.:25:10.

going to get anywhere near to sorting this out until the spring of

:25:11.:25:15.

next year. That has left a clear hole. The second thing is at least

:25:16.:25:20.

they have come up with an iconic policy, but simply illustrates why

:25:21.:25:27.

they think independence would be Scotland economically stronger, the

:25:28.:25:31.

childcare policy designed to get more women into work and overcome

:25:32.:25:35.

some of the demographic disadvantages in Scotland would

:25:36.:25:39.

otherwise suffer. So far as the big debate is concerned, one also

:25:40.:25:44.

emerges -- what also emerges is the degree to which the SNP's version of

:25:45.:25:49.

independence is one of continuing collaboration with the rest of the

:25:50.:25:53.

UK, and is reliant on the goodwill of the European Union. The problem

:25:54.:25:58.

is indeed Scotland itself might want to continue to use the pound as part

:25:59.:26:03.

of monetary union, it might still want to be in the same energy

:26:04.:26:09.

market, it may wish to remain in the European Union, but the trouble is

:26:10.:26:11.

these and other things are not simply in the SNP's gift and when it

:26:12.:26:17.

comes to the claim of the no side this still leaves an awful lot of

:26:18.:26:25.

uncertainty. Difficult for the yes I do back because it is not clear what

:26:26.:26:29.

is going to happen until negotiations take place. Some

:26:30.:26:33.

progress but still some clear problems for the yes side even

:26:34.:26:36.

having made up their vision. A lot of what is in the white paper

:26:37.:26:43.

is the sort of thing you would really expect in a general election

:26:44.:26:49.

manifesto, rather than a referendum about the future of a 300-year-old

:26:50.:26:54.

union which is a geopolitical decision, whereas the white paper

:26:55.:26:57.

talks about scrapping the bedroom tax, more free childcare, Holyrood

:26:58.:27:04.

has the power right now to do that, give out free to air if it wants.

:27:05.:27:07.

Other things about higher minimum wage, better pensions. These are

:27:08.:27:13.

things that are normally in general election manifestoes. Is that the

:27:14.:27:18.

strategy the SNP is using to fight this referendum?

:27:19.:27:22.

There are two aspects, the first reason the SNP are doing it is

:27:23.:27:26.

they'll wanting to try and illustrate how if Scotland became

:27:27.:27:29.

independent they believe they could do things that are more appropriate

:27:30.:27:33.

to Scotland's needs and aspirations and there before -- and therefore

:27:34.:27:39.

governed the country more effectively. The second thing is the

:27:40.:27:43.

belief at least, widespread in Scotland, and common inside the SNP,

:27:44.:27:47.

that actually people 's policy preferences in Scotland, Scotland is

:27:48.:27:54.

simply more left-wing than England, because she doesn't vote for

:27:55.:27:56.

Conservative MPs in the way people do south of the border. In truth,

:27:57.:28:01.

the power of that argument is easily exaggerated. Scotland is a little

:28:02.:28:06.

more left-wing but not that much. The problems with the Conservative

:28:07.:28:13.

party is not the people on the right in Scotland, but they will not vote

:28:14.:28:17.

for the Conservatives. You can find plenty of evidence that people don't

:28:18.:28:20.

like that -- bedroom tax, difficult to find that attitude persuades

:28:21.:28:24.

people to vote for independence. These are politicians with a certain

:28:25.:28:29.

agenda who wish to achieve certain things who are hoping to persuade

:28:30.:28:33.

the Scottish public to view the debate they would like to view it.

:28:34.:28:38.

Whether they would succeed is debatable. The crucial issue, the

:28:39.:28:41.

thing that seems to matter most, is whether or not they and their

:28:42.:28:46.

country will be economically better off. Although it might be argued the

:28:47.:28:51.

white paper contains rather optimistic assumptions about

:28:52.:28:54.

Scotland's public finances, even against the backdrop of those

:28:55.:28:58.

assumptions, the white paper admits that in the short run at least an

:28:59.:29:03.

independent Scotland would be running the public sector deficit

:29:04.:29:05.

and what actually you would struggle to find is very much indeed in the

:29:06.:29:10.

way of tax cut is, spending increases, and in the short run

:29:11.:29:16.

would clearly say to people if you vote for independence you will be

:29:17.:29:18.

better off pretty quickly. But other promises there are in the long run.

:29:19.:29:29.

Final question, it is clearly it is a left of centre pitch for votes,

:29:30.:29:33.

more government spending, welfare. You think that fits in with the

:29:34.:29:38.

prevailing Scottish political culture. Am I right in thinking it

:29:39.:29:43.

is also particularly pitch for the West of Scotland, the Labour West of

:29:44.:29:48.

Scotland, where the referendum will be won or lost.

:29:49.:29:52.

It is certainly true of the three Unionist parties in Scotland, it is

:29:53.:29:57.

the Labour Party support that is most likely to vote yes, albeit only

:29:58.:30:05.

10%, 15%. It is also true people who are less well off soon-to-be more

:30:06.:30:10.

willing to vote for independence and one can vote -- understand why the

:30:11.:30:15.

strategy is going in this direction. The disadvantage is at the end of

:30:16.:30:18.

the day is they need to create broad coalition, a broader coalition man

:30:19.:30:24.

exists at the moment, according to any of the opinion polls, and the

:30:25.:30:28.

potentials disadvantage is the narrow their appeal. Thank you very

:30:29.:30:40.

much. Are you happy with how the launch went? It was a fantastically

:30:41.:30:48.

successful day. Those big events are nightmares for politicians. It is

:30:49.:30:57.

all very well, these generalised remarks about the document

:30:58.:31:01.

containing apes, buts and maybes. But nobody has found a substantial

:31:02.:31:08.

error. That is another triumph. It was meant to enter all of the

:31:09.:31:13.

questions but it has left a lot of major questions unanswered, or at

:31:14.:31:18.

least there is an argument. The need for Scotland to reapply for

:31:19.:31:21.

membership of the European Union, that is definitely an unanswered

:31:22.:31:27.

question. The White Paper act it was not unanswered. But we know there is

:31:28.:31:33.

definitely a matter of controversy. And the issue of the currency. If

:31:34.:31:37.

what remains of the United Kingdom says, we are not doing a currency

:31:38.:31:43.

union with you, what happens? I do not think there is anything more

:31:44.:31:47.

doubtful connected to the Scottish Government position on Europe than

:31:48.:31:49.

you can find in the British government connection to Europe. We

:31:50.:31:57.

are promised a referendum in 2017. We don't know what the renegotiate

:31:58.:32:01.

would be. We do not know if David Cameron will honour his word. You

:32:02.:32:06.

have to accept that some stuff is beyond hard and fast politics. The

:32:07.:32:13.

White Paper incest and claims that it is not an issue, that Scotland

:32:14.:32:19.

will just automatically seamlessly remain a member of the European

:32:20.:32:24.

Union? If on the morning of the 19th there is a Yes vote, there is 18

:32:25.:32:28.

months until actual independence. I think, and indeed the words we are

:32:29.:32:33.

fired from Europe suggests that within those 18 months, a transition

:32:34.:32:40.

would be made. You would have to get the agreement of all 28 members to

:32:41.:32:43.

do this. Spain is obsessed with Catalunya. I think the Spanish Prime

:32:44.:32:49.

Minister was referring to a little local problem. When decisions come

:32:50.:32:55.

to be made in Europe, I think Angela Merkel baby a better source to go

:32:56.:33:03.

to. May be a better source to go to. It seems to me that you're living in

:33:04.:33:09.

Clyde Kunkel and if you think you can have independence, keep all the

:33:10.:33:16.

oil how have submarines out of Scotland... If only that was an

:33:17.:33:23.

accurate representation of what has been set. If there is a Yes vote on

:33:24.:33:30.

the 19th of September, if the money markets make -- wake up and our

:33:31.:33:33.

doubtful about the status of UK debt because they do not know what will

:33:34.:33:36.

be divided between England and Scotland, the price of UK debt will

:33:37.:33:40.

increase. That is elementary economics. There is an imperative

:33:41.:33:44.

for London to settle this problem quite quickly. There is no

:33:45.:33:49.

suggestion there would not be a trade-off of assets. So if you do

:33:50.:33:54.

not get the Sterling, you will not take the debt? I don't think we

:33:55.:34:02.

would ever be in that situation. The people who hold the debt would not

:34:03.:34:08.

know which debt they are holding. Are you saying that if you don't get

:34:09.:34:12.

sterling, you will not take your share of the national debt? What I

:34:13.:34:19.

am saying is there is no chance we will not get sterling. That is

:34:20.:34:24.

typical of the White Paper. That would be my worry about the

:34:25.:34:34.

approach. I am concentrated on the fiscal gap. I still find it an

:34:35.:34:38.

assumption in the treatment of the public finances after independence

:34:39.:34:42.

in the event of a Yes vote, which does not seem to reflect what other

:34:43.:34:49.

economists say is a problem. I think what happens is, unless you return

:34:50.:34:54.

to a kind of economics that I have not heard really since the John

:34:55.:34:57.

Smith era, where your answer to everything seems to be a gap, he put

:34:58.:35:02.

more state money into it, some people really believe this will

:35:03.:35:06.

happen. I think a lot of people will doubt it. Very briefly, Alex? You

:35:07.:35:14.

are arguing that if you have the pluses and minuses of a full

:35:15.:35:17.

economic system, you can find the money for better services by having

:35:18.:35:21.

more advantageous taxes. We are going to leave it there. It can only

:35:22.:35:31.

get better. Politicians are a necessary evil. Governments are

:35:32.:35:34.

there to uphold the rights of the people. Sounds like common sense to

:35:35.:35:40.

me. But, in the 18th Century, those were revolutionary ideas. One man,

:35:41.:35:43.

Thomas Paine, took those ideas from humble beginnings in the south of

:35:44.:35:47.

England, across an ocean to the New World and inspired a Revolution. In

:35:48.:35:50.

the latest in our series on great political thinkers, Giles went to

:35:51.:35:53.

meet Liberal Democrat MP, Norman Baker, to examine the legacy of Tom

:35:54.:35:55.

Paine. There cannot be that many political

:35:56.:36:16.

philosophers that end up with a beer named after them. But they like Tom

:36:17.:36:22.

Paine here because he lived here in Lewes, alongside New York and Paris.

:36:23.:36:27.

The local MP likes and not just because he was a resident, but

:36:28.:36:30.

because its heady mix of reason, rights and justice is very much to

:36:31.:36:38.

his political taste. Tom Paine was sent to Lewis as a customs and

:36:39.:36:42.

excise man. It seems apt to meet outside the house he made his own

:36:43.:36:49.

first six years. I admired Thomas Paine tremendously. He stood for

:36:50.:36:53.

what he believed in. He would not bend to the prevailing wind. He

:36:54.:36:59.

stood for rights and justice. Plain argument and common sense. Doctor

:37:00.:37:04.

Elizabeth Fraser explains what that an -- common-sense actually was. He

:37:05.:37:10.

was a settlement of the world. An inspirational concept for people who

:37:11.:37:14.

want to be free of nation states. His theory is a theory of rights.

:37:15.:37:19.

And the theory of rights he bequeathed to us is basically

:37:20.:37:22.

another one that we have in our human rights institutions. And in

:37:23.:37:28.

his book, Agrarian Justice, he described the importance of having

:37:29.:37:34.

social insurance, pensions for people. The town of Lewis has always

:37:35.:37:42.

had a character that made it a perfect match with Tom Paine. It has

:37:43.:37:47.

always been a bolshie place, which I like about it. It is always

:37:48.:37:53.

challenged the establishment. The king was checked when the first

:37:54.:38:04.

Parliament was initiated. And with almost local logic, Thomas Paine

:38:05.:38:07.

thinks politics has a very limited role. For him, politics and

:38:08.:38:17.

government has one role, to uphold the rights of individuals. It has

:38:18.:38:22.

got no business anywhere else. Here we are at this fantastic bowling

:38:23.:38:24.

green which has been here for centuries. Tom Paine would have

:38:25.:38:31.

bowled from here. He was a member. This very spot? It could be this

:38:32.:38:39.

very spot. What is Tom Paine telling us in his work? I think he is

:38:40.:38:44.

telling us that we should base what we do on freethinking, reason, and

:38:45.:38:49.

respect the individual. Don't be hemmed in by the tramlines of

:38:50.:38:55.

established orthodoxy. Excellent shot! Does he get into trouble for

:38:56.:39:00.

saying this? Yes, because most people would bend and go with the

:39:01.:39:07.

flow. He doesn't. He ended up in a pauper, just six people at his

:39:08.:39:12.

burial. I think you won that one. I think that is bang on. His ideas

:39:13.:39:20.

inspired revolution and a constitution in America, and later

:39:21.:39:24.

in France, where he was so involved he was even elected to the

:39:25.:39:28.

Assembly. But relentless focus on rights has its drawbacks. By the

:39:29.:39:34.

Rights of Man he definitely meant the rights of men. And feminist

:39:35.:39:38.

rights have been a problem theoretically in politics ever

:39:39.:39:42.

since. There is also just a more general problem with the idea of

:39:43.:39:45.

rights which is that it treats us as individuals, it can be seen to put

:39:46.:39:49.

this into competition with one another. It can be seen to lead to a

:39:50.:39:54.

litigious society. And Thomas Paine is accused of having ignored

:39:55.:39:59.

community, the relationships between us. But in the town pub where Tom

:40:00.:40:09.

Paine drank and debated, there is an argument which still resonates

:40:10.:40:14.

today. It is hugely relevant. He was very modern. He was perhaps an then.

:40:15.:40:20.

But he did not like governments. He called them a necessary evil at

:40:21.:40:26.

best, intolerable at worst. He wanted to make sure policy was

:40:27.:40:30.

framed towards the individual. He was suspicious of unelected bodies.

:40:31.:40:36.

House of Lords. The monarchy. Here is to Tom Paine. Cheers. We will

:40:37.:40:45.

talk to Norman Baker in a minute. First we are going to go live to the

:40:46.:40:49.

Central lobby in the House of Commons, where they have been

:40:50.:40:54.

debating the European Referendum Bill spearheaded by James Wharton.

:40:55.:40:58.

He joins us now. There are developments. What is happening? We

:40:59.:41:03.

have just had a division. We have come to the last group of

:41:04.:41:08.

amendments, the slowing tactics being used by the Labour Party and

:41:09.:41:11.

the Liberal Democrats from going through. There will probably be

:41:12.:41:15.

another couple of divisions, then we move into third Reading. If we get

:41:16.:41:19.

through third reading, that means it will have passed all of its House of

:41:20.:41:23.

Commons stages, a significant development. It is something that

:41:24.:41:28.

when we set out on this path, many commentators said would never

:41:29.:41:31.

happen. Get the impression that despite the to derail your bill,

:41:32.:41:38.

from the tone of your voice you sound reasonably optimistic that he

:41:39.:41:42.

will come out of today the winner? Well, I hope so. We're not there

:41:43.:41:47.

yet. We are making good progress. We have had day after day after day of

:41:48.:41:52.

sitting. We have had many days in the committee. My Conservative Party

:41:53.:41:56.

colleagues have been disciplined and worked very hard to get us to this

:41:57.:42:01.

stage. I think we can get it through the Commons. That would be very

:42:02.:42:04.

significant. Many people thought it could not be done. If we can, we are

:42:05.:42:10.

a significant step closer to letting Britain decide on our future in the

:42:11.:42:14.

European Union. That is a good thing. It has been quite a hurdle to

:42:15.:42:20.

get this far. It is not quite over yet. Is it not fair to say that the

:42:21.:42:24.

hurdle in the House of Lords is higher? It will be difficult when it

:42:25.:42:29.

gets to the House of Lords. It is a different problem for a different

:42:30.:42:32.

day. I have been focused on the stages. We have run up against real

:42:33.:42:39.

determined opposition. I will do everything I can to get this bill

:42:40.:42:44.

through today. I will do whatever I can to influence the weather House

:42:45.:42:47.

of Lords acts when it comes to them. Members of the House of Lords will

:42:48.:42:51.

have to give serious thought to what they are doing before they do

:42:52.:42:55.

anything to frustrate this. It is a bill which gives people a

:42:56.:42:58.

referendum. For an unelected house to deny the British people a say on

:42:59.:43:04.

a bill passed by the House of Commons, would put them in a

:43:05.:43:07.

difficult position. Thank you. We will follow that. You

:43:08.:43:14.

need to get back into the chamber. That is the latest on how the

:43:15.:43:17.

European Referendum Bill is going. It looks like it will go through the

:43:18.:43:26.

Commons. It faces a tough hurdle in the House of Lords. Let's go back to

:43:27.:43:32.

Thomas Paine. He has been influential on political thought on

:43:33.:43:35.

both sides of the Atlantic. Norman Baker joins me from Brighton. I

:43:36.:43:41.

suppose a lot of what Thomas Paine stood for, which was controversial

:43:42.:43:47.

at the time, is now just an accepted part of political values, would be

:43:48.:43:53.

right? Some of it certainly is. He was ahead of his time when it came

:43:54.:43:58.

to democracy and elected government. He challenged unelected bodies. Who

:43:59.:44:02.

put you there and how can we get rid of you? That was pretty

:44:03.:44:06.

revolutionary for the 18th century. We still have unelected bodies in

:44:07.:44:10.

this country, including the House of Lords. I think you also was prepared

:44:11.:44:19.

to challenge the mainstream opinion -- he was also prepared to

:44:20.:44:25.

challenge. That sometimes is necessary. We end up with the

:44:26.:44:30.

situation sometimes where people go with the flow because they are

:44:31.:44:33.

frightened to speak out. The consequence of that is that

:44:34.:44:36.

injustice could be allowed to surface. Tom Paine was very keen on

:44:37.:44:44.

individual rights, that was his belief, the core of his belief. He

:44:45.:44:48.

was suspicious of big government, particularly when he got in North

:44:49.:44:52.

America, because big comment meant the colonial government. There was a

:44:53.:44:56.

huge argument with the founding fathers as to exactly what powers

:44:57.:45:01.

the new government should have. They were all suspicious. The world has

:45:02.:45:05.

become more collectivist since the days of Thomas Paine, including your

:45:06.:45:11.

own party? We are wary of big government, too. One of the

:45:12.:45:15.

principles my party espouses is the idea you do not concentrate too much

:45:16.:45:19.

power in one Particular Place or in the hands of one person. That is why

:45:20.:45:25.

we like the idea of devolution from the EU to nation states. That is

:45:26.:45:36.

still government. There is a great belief in the power

:45:37.:45:39.

of government. There is not a problem, your party activists don't

:45:40.:45:45.

see they could not be resolved with more government. That's what almost

:45:46.:45:50.

every motion before your party conference is about.

:45:51.:45:53.

We are removing power from government in certain circumstances.

:45:54.:46:03.

The example with not proceeding with ID cards, we have been keen to roll

:46:04.:46:12.

back so the state does not intervene. He was right to support

:46:13.:46:22.

the American Revolution, we can agree on that. The French revolution

:46:23.:46:28.

was necessary, but unfortunately it took a nasty turn. The fact is the

:46:29.:46:37.

corrupt monarchy, undoubtedly that was something to be challenged.

:46:38.:46:51.

Are you a supporter of him? The weak point came at the end with the

:46:52.:46:55.

French Revolution. It is not just something that goes a bit wrong, it

:46:56.:46:58.

is something where you have a theory of the state which have terrible

:46:59.:47:01.

injustices that need to be addressed, you go down the route of

:47:02.:47:04.

reform and consistently push for reform, but you get into trouble and

:47:05.:47:11.

make those of unpopular doing so or do you assume? You ministry goes in

:47:12.:47:21.

different ways and in the American Revolution it seems to work out

:47:22.:47:25.

rather well. I don't think it does the French Revolution and that makes

:47:26.:47:30.

me was goal. And with the American Revolution, maybe the only example

:47:31.:47:34.

in the past 300 years of a successful, full-scale revolution. I

:47:35.:47:39.

am glad we can agree with representation we should also have

:47:40.:47:44.

taxation. To go back to this discussion, yes it is, but the

:47:45.:47:49.

reason why people like him as he has a wild West element. He is the lone

:47:50.:47:53.

hero, the figure who walks through history, happens to be in the right

:47:54.:47:59.

spot, and does wonderful things which we like to think we would all

:48:00.:48:02.

do. Where is probably we would be more cowardly.

:48:03.:48:06.

There is a real problem which is about the relationships which is

:48:07.:48:14.

what happens afterwards. This lack of awareness in its philosophy of

:48:15.:48:17.

how communities which is going to be, one of the big themes, we have

:48:18.:48:23.

lots of rights, we can take them off to Europe, how we get along as

:48:24.:48:28.

communities is a more complex problem. And he could be the

:48:29.:48:36.

revolutionary he was because of the printed book, it was widely

:48:37.:48:42.

accessible, and now I wonder whether we are faced with the technology we

:48:43.:48:46.

currently have which is taking over, taking the place of

:48:47.:48:53.

government. At one of the leading inspirations for the American

:48:54.:48:58.

Revolution wasn't Scotland. Not that you are counting. 44% of the

:48:59.:49:01.

founding fathers of the American declaration of Independence had

:49:02.:49:08.

Scottish, or as they call it bolsters scotch backgrounds. --

:49:09.:49:17.

Ulster Scotch. Helen heard the words at school -- Scottish by Barak

:49:18.:49:23.

hockey club, can you answer five questions on sport? Who is the

:49:24.:49:32.

women's Wimbledon tennis championship I know Andy Murray did

:49:33.:49:35.

for us, that is the most important thing. He will go bigger and bigger.

:49:36.:49:39.

You are the FA Cup holders at the moment? Manchester United because it

:49:40.:49:48.

is my favourite club. Who is the England rugby union captain? What

:49:49.:49:56.

about hockey? Which it did Manchester United leave the football

:49:57.:50:00.

league. These are hard questions. Last year. 92. Final one, which

:50:01.:50:08.

Paralympian one most gold medals at London 2012? Dave Weir. It was the

:50:09.:50:21.

restraining swimmer, she won eight. Poor Helen! I wouldn't have got any

:50:22.:50:27.

of them either and would have been proud of it. The dusty halls of

:50:28.:50:29.

Westminster are littered with the bodies of politicians who have

:50:30.:50:32.

failed those tests on popular culture. Previous sports minister

:50:33.:50:35.

Richard Caborn also flunked the sports quiz. The PM and the London

:50:36.:50:39.

Mayor both zeroed tests on the price of milk and bread. Mr Cameron's

:50:40.:50:42.

excuse was that he had a posh bread-maker! Good answer. And let's

:50:43.:50:45.

not talk about that Gordon Brown "Arctic Monkey" moment. So does it

:50:46.:50:48.

matter? Do we really care if our politicians can't tell their Arsenal

:50:49.:50:52.

from their Elbow? Arsenal, by the way, is an Association Football

:50:53.:50:55.

Club. Elbow is something you normally hear on Radio 2. The

:50:56.:50:59.

inquisitor-in-chief on many of these questions is the broadcaster, Nick

:51:00.:51:04.

Ferrari, from LBC. He joins us now. It may be a kind of Romanesque

:51:05.:51:11.

sport, but does it really matter? It matters hugely. These people seek to

:51:12.:51:14.

tell it how to live our lives whether through financial

:51:15.:51:16.

responsible at sea, where our children should be schooled, whether

:51:17.:51:22.

they should be in Europe, sends our children is to war, these are the

:51:23.:51:26.

decisions they take. If they don't know the price of bread or who won

:51:27.:51:30.

the FA Cup they should be exposed. You need to know who won the FA Cup

:51:31.:51:37.

for you declare war on Iraq? You need to know you are in touch with

:51:38.:51:42.

the ordinary policy. If you want to appear to be relevant and when their

:51:43.:51:46.

votes and not to preach and be granted it would be artful to well

:51:47.:51:51.

cost. I don't know who won the FA Cup? You are not an elected

:51:52.:52:01.

politician. You hold them to task, that is your job. I don't have to

:52:02.:52:07.

vote for you. I vote for a man to lead this country first although I

:52:08.:52:12.

do! I think if you speak on a sports

:52:13.:52:18.

brief that is the problem. There are a number of very basic questions, I

:52:19.:52:24.

remember a Labour culture Minister who couldn't remember the last bit

:52:25.:52:27.

of culture they had seen. That is a problem because you have gone out

:52:28.:52:31.

there, just basic preparation. If you get a question, if anyone ask me

:52:32.:52:36.

about cricket, I would die in a whole but it is very nifty say there

:52:37.:52:39.

is a basic number of things you should know, Wimbledon, the FA Cup,

:52:40.:52:45.

and it is part of the discussion, people are having this discussion,

:52:46.:52:48.

if you put yourself to one side you are out of the picture. All the

:52:49.:52:54.

politicians I liked were cricket fans. There is something about

:52:55.:52:59.

following test matches which makes for a good, in touch politician. The

:53:00.:53:04.

tip for a minister in a situation like that is everybody prefers a

:53:05.:53:09.

body goes I don't know. I haven't a clue, you tell me.

:53:10.:53:14.

In the sports issue, sometimes the politicians get hoist by their own

:53:15.:53:18.

petard because they make, football, they hardly ever talk about

:53:19.:53:21.

cricket, but the more public school they are, the more they want to talk

:53:22.:53:27.

about football and they were on the terraces with a pork pie which is

:53:28.:53:33.

all nonsense. One former prime ministers said he liked watching

:53:34.:53:40.

about on the terraces before he was even born. If they have the answers

:53:41.:53:45.

to everything, if all our schools were fantastic, if we had full

:53:46.:53:48.

deployment, I don't care you don't know the price of milk but it is not

:53:49.:53:52.

like that so be like one of us. Is it true Nick Clegg, is he your

:53:53.:54:00.

new best friend? He is my new best broadcasting body. -- friend. I

:54:01.:54:12.

count you as my print friend. He has never asked to see the questions and

:54:13.:54:17.

he has literally had people report their membership on air, he takes it

:54:18.:54:25.

on the chin. He did get the Arsenal back for. I wish I hadn't said that.

:54:26.:54:36.

Now to our quiz, the question was which of these men has the highest

:54:37.:54:41.

IQ? Boris Johnson, Nick Clegg, David Cameron, Ed Miliband. Does anybody

:54:42.:54:51.

know? Johnson. Ed Miliband. Nick Clegg. You are all wrong, or you

:54:52.:55:03.

could all be right. We don't know. You tricked us! Wanted you make

:55:04.:55:12.

about Boris Johnson's remarks? I detested them intensely. I don't

:55:13.:55:17.

care what he has to say about grammar schools, but to start

:55:18.:55:21.

segmenting the public by IQ, the rock and awful lot of clever fools

:55:22.:55:25.

at Westminster and elsewhere, it does not set a good turn. Why did he

:55:26.:55:32.

do it? Because we are all talking about it. He is a cat thrower. You

:55:33.:55:36.

throw a cat amongst the pigeons, Andrew. I think he wanted to

:55:37.:55:50.

establish himself as top --. Deeply offensive, a ridiculous character.

:55:51.:55:55.

He is almost like Berlusconi in his extremes and I find it astonishing

:55:56.:56:12.

he is taken so seriously. I take on board the point it was clumsy but to

:56:13.:56:15.

say some people are smart and some people are not, we need to help

:56:16.:56:20.

those -- help those who are not smart and they will not enjoy the

:56:21.:56:24.

economic boom. That is not quite what he said. I did read the speech

:56:25.:56:35.

cleverly, closely, not cleverly! When you are measuring at what other

:56:36.:56:43.

circumstances. He said it was almost like talking about dogs, treating

:56:44.:56:50.

humans like a species. I agree it was clumsy. We have got to accept

:56:51.:56:56.

some people are brighter than others. Was scripted or does he go

:56:57.:57:02.

off piste? It is very much scripted. You know when he

:57:03.:57:05.

freelances, you can kind of tell, remain the it was the Thatcher

:57:06.:57:12.

memorial speech... A critique of equality, if there was a clear

:57:13.:57:15.

political boat and difference, there is a man saying I don't buy into

:57:16.:57:20.

equality. He is conservative, doesn't have to. Is he playing for

:57:21.:57:28.

position in a Tory defeat? That is why a quality is being set up a mate

:57:29.:57:32.

is not like anybody is delivering a quality anyway. Wouldn't Holly read

:57:33.:57:41.

be brightened up -- Holyrood. If it had, who is the Scottish Johnson?

:57:42.:57:46.

Thankfully, so far, he hasn't escaped. Into the public domain. But

:57:47.:57:51.

if Joyce Johnson wants to be leader of the Tory party can he do it

:57:52.:57:55.

before the referendum? It would be such a help. You think it would be a

:57:56.:58:01.

help to your case. Wall the health is the Tories being five points

:58:02.:58:05.

ahead in September of next year in the national polls. Since I have

:58:06.:58:10.

been in London for 24 hours, do you think London wants to win the

:58:11.:58:13.

referendum, I get the impression from Downing Street they are not

:58:14.:58:18.

entirely convinced? I wouldn't put Alistair Carmichael and Alison

:58:19.:58:21.

Darling as the head of my campaign -- Alistair Darling. Why choose

:58:22.:58:29.

those two? We have to do simile in a Scottish

:58:30.:58:34.

constituency -- someone. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. The

:58:35.:58:38.

One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now. I'll be back on BBC One

:58:39.:58:42.

on Sunday with the Sunday Politics. I'll be talking to Yvette Cooper, do

:58:43.:58:45.

join me then. Bye bye.

:58:46.:58:51.

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