03/12/2013 Daily Politics


03/12/2013

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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. 5 billion in trade

:00:41.:00:45.

deals and thousands of jobs as a result, Britain and China now say

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the relationship is indispensable, but is massive Chinese investment in

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things like HS2 and nuclear energy really in Britain's interest?

:00:55.:01:00.

George Osborne says the welfare state is no longer affordable, he is

:01:01.:01:03.

expected uses Autumn Statement on Thursday to show how he plans to

:01:04.:01:08.

limit the annual welfare bill, but which benefits would be included and

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which won't? The UK performance in reading, maths

:01:13.:01:16.

and science has failed to improve in recent years, the coalition says it

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is a verdict on Labour's education record, Labour - surprise surprise -

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does not agree. And next year will see the start of

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a huge programme of events to mark a century since the outbreak of the

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Great War, but is the Government in a muddle about how to handle the

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commemoration? All that in the next hour, and with

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us for the whole programme today is a man with a CV as long as my arm,

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journalist, historian, author, broadcaster, I will stop there, Sir

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Max Hastings, welcome to the programme. If you have any thoughts

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on anything we are discussing today, you can send them to us. Well, let's

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start with China, because David Cameron is on day two of his visit.

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Today he has been at a lunch in Shanghai, encouraging businesses to

:02:15.:02:19.

invest in the UK. The Prime Minister said that Britain and China had deep

:02:20.:02:23.

complementary economies. Early in the visit he had talked with Premier

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Li about co-operation on nuclear power and high-speed rail. Max

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Hastings, is this a good idea? I wish the Government did not conduct

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foreign policy in lunches and lurchers, in that every nation has

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to do business with China, because it is a huge force in the world, but

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there is something a bit undignified about the Prime Minister almost

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kowtowing in Beijing. If the Government were able to demonstrate

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more dignity, I do not believe the headline figure above the 5 billion

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trade deal instantly signed. It sounds very optimistic. Most trade

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deals with the Chinese, when you study the small print, it says you

:03:09.:03:15.

will get paid in 2025. He probably had to be there, but one has to suck

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with a long spoon because they steal intellectual property, the rule of

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law does not exist as we understand it in China, and it is a bit

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embarrassing for the Prime Minister that, one week before he sets foot

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there to gladhanding the Chinese, the Chinese announce this new air

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defence zone towards the Pacific which could seriously leads to a

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regional war. How risky is it, then? Taking your point a bit further, we

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are asking the Chinese to be involved in nuclear power, a very

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sensitive area. A lot of us feel very uneasy about that, but the

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Chinese, their record of getting into things, hi-tech things with

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Western nations, and then you testified that everything goes one

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way to China, and rather less comes our way. I think a lot of us are

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very uncomfortable about the Chinese having a strong strategic base.

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Isn't that the realpolitik of the world as it stands, that China is

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dominant when it comes to economic affairs and the kowtowing that you

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talked about is going to be necessary? They need us as

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customers, but it is a question of how you play your hand of cards, and

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not only with China, but sometimes you feel, are their grown-ups making

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foreign policy in Downing Street? Did you sense a difference between

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the tone towards Sri Lanka on the issue of human rights and, of

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course, the no mention of it in China? Very obviously, because we

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want an awful lot out of China! Time for the daily quiz, which is related

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to David Cameron's visits to China, but which of these is the odd one

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out? Is it London cabs, High Speed Two, Heathrow Airport, or Weetabix?

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At the end of the show, we will see of Macs can give us the correct

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answer, plenty of time to think about it. The welfare state is no

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longer affordable, so says the Chancellor, George Osborne, who is

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expected uses Autumn Statement on Thursday to explain how he plans to

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control spending on welfare after the next election. In short, it

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could mean more cuts to working age benefits, but one thing the

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Chancellor will not include in such a cap is spending on the state

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pension, but should he? New figures out today from the Office for

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National Statistics show a growing income gap between pensioners and

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working households. Can a future government afford to protect pension

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perks? Ahead of the Autumn Statement on Thursday, George Osborne has

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hinted he would like any future Conservative government to introduce

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a new cap on welfare spending. This would mean putting permanent limits

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on around ?100 billion of public spending, on items such as housing

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benefit and some unemployment payments. Welfare payments account

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for about a sixth of what the Government spends every year, and

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the idea would be to set an annual ceiling for welfare spending every

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four years. However, any such cap will not include state pension

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payments, which cost a whopping ?74.2 billion in 2001-12 and rising

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fast. That is largely thanks to the triple lock, which means that the

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basic state pension goes up by the higher figure out of three variables

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- the average rise in earnings, inflation or 2.5%. It is an

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expensive guarantee, because it is predicted to cost the government ?45

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billion over the next 15 years. No party has committed to keeping the

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triple lock on pensions at the triple lock on pensions after 2015,

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and already Labour and the Liberal Democrats have committed to means

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testing winter fuel payments. I am joined now by former social security

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Secretary in John Major's government, Peter by pensions expert

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Robert Altman. -- Peter Lilley. I want to talk about this welfare

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cap, has it been tried before? It is not on show shall -- social

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security, but most apartments have a cap, because the Treasury says, we

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will set them a total amount, if they start exceeding it, they

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secretly know where the bodies of buried, weather is excessive

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expenditure, where the cats be made. So now they are applying that logic

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to the social security department, the Department of Work and

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Pensions, which has a certain rationale to it. Did you think about

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it when you were the secretary? No, I was the poacher, not the

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gamekeeper, I had previously been in the Treasury. I was carrying out

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reforms according to my priorities, rather than having them imposed from

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outside. How would it work in practice? Departments have ceilings

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on spending, but if you were to do it across the piece, how would that

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work in practice? It would mean that every year the department, looking

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ahead to the years ahead, would say, we have only got that amount of

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money, we have got to tailor benefits and entitlements to fit

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within it. Now, of course, if there is suddenly achromatic recession --

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a dramatic recession, it would not be possible to keep them to the

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limits and it would be exceeded. That also happens in other

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departments, if there is suddenly a war, you increase the budget for the

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MOD. Would you include housing benefit, a large jug of the bill,

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and unemployment payments? Would you spread everything more thinly or

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chop something dramatically? As I said, the Treasury is saying, let's

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leave that decision as to what to do to the Apartment, they will know

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where the cats can be made most easily. -- the Department. It will

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force them to come clean on those things, rather than, for example, as

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was probably imposed on the Department of Work and Pensions this

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time, which spreads the pain evenly but may not have been the best thing

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to do. Chances are, governments tend to break their own ceilings, caps,

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promises, budgetary rules. What would the penalty be, just a rap on

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the hands, explain to Parliament and knew much? Yes, in effect, but it is

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a serious penalty to show that you have overspent, the public is very

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cautious that we as a whole are overspending, that is why we have a

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huge deficit, and they want to see it brought under control. One could

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say it would be meaningless in any real terms, and extremely difficult

:09:53.:09:58.

to keep two. I think all these measures that the Treasury uses to

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get a grip of spending are cumulative, they help, but it is a

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hugely difficult problem. Has it got out of control, welfare spending? It

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has been rising for 50 years, until I became Secretary of State, rising

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twice as fast as national income for 50 years. Since then, it has been

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under a greater degree of control, but it has been boosted by the

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recession. Pensions, let's get onto pensions, because that is a vast

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proportion of that particular budget. The discussion is going to

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be, should it be included in any cap? You presumably would not want

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it in. Well, if you have got a sharp increase in the number of

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pensioners, which we do have, and you try to cap spending, and you

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have already got the lowest state pension pretty much in the developed

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world, certainly one of the lowest in the developed world, then you are

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going to be plunging millions of your citizens back into poverty,

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which is what we have successfully come out of over the last few years.

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And that does not strike me was a very sensible way to run an economy,

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you know. When we talk about pension spending, we are not being a king's

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ransom for pensioners, we are paying an absolute minimum, so with more

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and more pensioners, the sadness is that governments in the past have

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not set aside money to pay for what they knew was coming. We are already

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increasing the pension age, changing some of the parameters, and in fact

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the state pension is going to be cut in the future, but with so many more

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people... At the moment, you know, 12 million pensioners, that is going

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to significantly increase. Why would you want to stop that kind of

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spending? Because it is unaffordable. What would you say? By

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and large, where you have a contributory benefits, people know

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the terms, it is more or less politically impossible to cut it.

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Should it be? We have added these locks, inflation, 2.5%, but that is

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not the rules they were paying into it under. You would like to see that

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go after 2015? Certainly. Is it affordable to continue the triple

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lock posts 2015 so that pensions are paid at that highest rate? Coming

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back to the basic point, there is no more money, and I had a conversation

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with the mayor of Chicago, who was Obama's chief of staff, and he said

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every politician in the Western world except the Governor of North

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Dakota, weather is gas for fracking, has the same problem. We

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have to reconcile electrics with -- electorates with how we will win the

:12:48.:12:51.

election. The argument has been that they have had a good recession, that

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is a blunt instrument, but compared to working households, somehow they

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have not had to deal with the same sort of restrictions that working

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households have. Do you agree that it is not affordable to continue, as

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is put by politicians, with the rise in pensions? I do not agree. We need

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to look at the overall envelope of spending that we have, which is

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dedicated to older people, and find different ways of actually slicing

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the way we spend the money. For example, we have means tested

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benefits. People, we have non-means tested, non-tax benefits, like

:13:31.:13:36.

winter fuel payments. -- for some people. We are going to save

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significant sums by increasing the state pension age and encouraging

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older people generally to work longer has to be part of the

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solution, but you cannot leave millions of your citizens in poverty

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and call yourself a civilised country. And won't that happen? If

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you get rid of the triple lock, if you do not keep spending at a

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reasonable level, we are all getting older, that is what will happen,

:14:01.:14:06.

many more people living in poverty. The new when they were paying in

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that it would be prevented against inflation, we should keep that

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guarantee. -- they knew. But to go up as much as Jennings, even if

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inflation is less, is in the present circumstances not affordable. -- as

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much as earnings. What about the winter fuel payments? They are not

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means tested, should that be done after 2015? There is a perfectly

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reasonable case for that, it is obvious, not obvious to me that we

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should receive such a benefit. We should not have all these silly

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little benefits. Isn't it a knee-jerk idea that we have to feel

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sorry for pensioners? It is the next generation who will retire that we

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should feel sorry for, because at the moment a lot of older people,

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not the poor, but people who have got to be protected, but a lot of

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elderly people are much better off than the next generation of going to

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be. It is the ones who will retire in ten or 15 years that will be in

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terrible trouble. Around the top 20% of current pensioners are reasonably

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well off. 80% run pretty low incomes, averaging around ?15,000 a

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year. Somebody in work would call that a low income. The state pension

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will be around ?7,000 a year, that is it. I agree that the 2.5% figure

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is a bit arbitrary, a triple lock with 2.5% does not really make sense

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to me, that deciding whether you want earnings or price inflation is

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a separate discussion. You can do a double lock or you can say that

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pensioners have to take the same earnings increases as people in

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work, or you can say we do not care about earnings, let's tie to prices.

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What about including pensions in any cap? Ed Balls, the Shadow

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Chancellor, talked about the idea and perhaps regretted it could be

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brought in? Would you agree with it? You can predict pretty clearly the

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number of pensioners and how much they will be paid, you incorporate

:16:20.:16:26.

that when setting up the cap. It is to stop frightening pensioners that

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you do not included. I would not included in the cap for

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presentational reasons. Would you included? Yes. So far, on one of the

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issues I am always being reminded about by my new rich friends, the

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cuts in public spending will come nowhere near avoiding this past

:16:47.:16:50.

problem looming over our children and grandchildren of facing a

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completely unaffordable welfare state. We have to go much further in

:16:55.:16:58.

the next generation. One of the reasons for having serious doubts

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about whether Ed Miliband is fit to govern this country, we should not

:17:05.:17:07.

believe him until he has come clean about where he will save money with

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these huge bills the state is now facing. Thank you both, Ros Altmann

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and Peter Lilley. The editor of the Guardian will be appearing before

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the Home Affairs Select Committee later to answer questions about the

:17:23.:17:25.

publication of the Edward Snowden security leaks.

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Last month, British spy chiefs were scathing about the impact of the

:17:30.:17:33.

revelations on national security. Giles is at portcullis house. You

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say they were scathing, it was a difference security committee, but

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it is the same subject. The head of MI6, M, if you like, said that

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Al-Qaeda would be rubbing their hands with glee about the things

:17:53.:17:55.

that the Guardian published, the Edward Snowden revelations. Alan

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Rusbridger will appear before the Home Affairs Select Committee. It is

:18:01.:18:06.

chairman, Keith Vaz, joins me. What do you want to hear from him? We

:18:07.:18:11.

will put our questions at the time, but it is very good that Alan

:18:12.:18:15.

Rusbridger has appeared to come before the committee. Some of the

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American newspapers believe we have summoned him and making him do this,

:18:20.:18:25.

it is an essential part of our enquiry into counter-terrorism, so

:18:26.:18:29.

even before these revelations the committee wanted to look at these

:18:30.:18:33.

issues, but what the Guardian has published in the last year is

:18:34.:18:36.

relevant to the discussions we will have, the idea of public interest as

:18:37.:18:40.

opposed to the points made by Sir John Sawers and the other head of

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the security services when they appear. It does not matter what we

:18:45.:18:51.

think about the Edward Snowden revelations or what I think, those

:18:52.:18:55.

people in charge of security were very clear about what damage it had

:18:56.:19:02.

done. The point often made is, is a newspaper editor the right person to

:19:03.:19:06.

make those decisions? Presumably you will want to see some kind of CV

:19:07.:19:13.

justification? These are important questions to be put to Alan

:19:14.:19:16.

Rusbridger. You are absolutely right. I have read the transcript

:19:17.:19:21.

and seen the recording of the appearance of the three spy chiefs,

:19:22.:19:24.

if we can call the matter, before our sister committee, and they are

:19:25.:19:30.

pretty upset over what has been happening, as our senior members of

:19:31.:19:34.

the government and others. I don't think it is a party issue, I think

:19:35.:19:38.

there is a general feeling that questions are to be answered and

:19:39.:19:43.

that is why we are keen to hear from Alan Rusbridger. He needs the

:19:44.:19:46.

opportunity, it is a big opportunity for him to put his views forward and

:19:47.:19:51.

we are glad he is appearing. I wonder whether it has rather

:19:52.:20:04.

polarised on is Guradianesque, if you like, and wonder how dare the

:20:05.:20:10.

Government do this? On the other hand, some people might feel the

:20:11.:20:14.

Guardian has been irresponsible. Have you seen this polarisation? We

:20:15.:20:21.

do not go in there to do party politics, we ask questions relevant

:20:22.:20:28.

to our enquiries. We all need to show an interest, we are all

:20:29.:20:32.

Guardian readers, some of us read it avidly, some of us don't, that is an

:20:33.:20:36.

interest we will have to declare, just like we all watch the BBC from

:20:37.:20:41.

time to time. I think questions will be asked of Alan Rusbridger, he is

:20:42.:20:45.

perfectly capable of dealing with this well and I am sure he will do.

:20:46.:20:50.

He originally wanted to bring his deputy editor, that he wants to come

:20:51.:20:55.

alone and I think he will help us with the difficult task of

:20:56.:20:58.

fashioning a new counterterrorism policy. You can watch it on the BBC,

:20:59.:21:06.

of course dashed from time to time! What is interesting is that Alan

:21:07.:21:09.

Rusbridger is coming along to give the evidence about the Edward

:21:10.:21:14.

Snowden thing, Bagram Greenwald, the journalist who got the information

:21:15.:21:20.

from Edward Snowden, said recently that they might have stuff in the

:21:21.:21:28.

can. To a very avid Guardian reader, I am sure, Max Hastings. Did the

:21:29.:21:36.

Guardian perform a public service? The truth always seems to lie in the

:21:37.:21:40.

middle. It is a very good newspaper which does many good things, but

:21:41.:21:47.

over this particular episode, one found Alan Rusbridger's moral

:21:48.:21:55.

conceit was hard to take. Some of us find that all nations need security

:21:56.:22:01.

secrets. Allen thinks that no secrets matter and he as editor is

:22:02.:22:05.

fit to decide what should be published, some can't go along with

:22:06.:22:14.

that. But what has emerged from the Snowden revelations, although I am

:22:15.:22:17.

somebody who wishes it did not happen, is that there is more

:22:18.:22:21.

scrutiny and supervision, because they have been doing things that

:22:22.:22:28.

many of us will not agree with. Does that in some way to vindicate Alan

:22:29.:22:31.

Rusbridger's decision, because there are things that we know about that

:22:32.:22:35.

we would not have before and it might put pressure on the

:22:36.:22:39.

intelligence services to be more open? I and many people feel

:22:40.:22:44.

uncomfortable but Allen, without reference to anybody else, has

:22:45.:22:46.

published a lot of stuff which undoubtedly makes the security of

:22:47.:22:51.

our society more difficult. The fact that he might have done it for the

:22:52.:22:57.

good is not relevant. He unloaded a dumper truck are very sensitive

:22:58.:23:02.

information, including names of people of all shapes and sizes. We

:23:03.:23:08.

face threats, Al-Qaeda is a threat, it is no good the Guardian

:23:09.:23:12.

pretending they're not threats. If I have to judge between trust in the

:23:13.:23:16.

judgment of the intelligence or Alan Rusbridger, by a narrow margin, I

:23:17.:23:21.

would choose the intelligence services.

:23:22.:23:23.

Next year will be the centenary of the start of the First World War -

:23:24.:23:27.

the chance to pay tribute to the fallen. For some, it's an

:23:28.:23:30.

opportunity to remind ourselves of the futility of war and reflect that

:23:31.:23:33.

millions of lives from all sides were lost. Others, including our

:23:34.:23:36.

guest today, Sir Max Hastings, believe that would fail to tell the

:23:37.:23:40.

whole story, and that far from being a senseless sacrifice, World War I

:23:41.:23:43.

should be remembered as a conflict which simply had to be won against a

:23:44.:23:47.

Germany which, at the time, was intent on dominating Europe. But to

:23:48.:23:50.

what degree should present-day sensitivities influence our view of

:23:51.:23:51.

the past? David Thompson reports. The war to end all Wars, an horrific

:23:52.:24:10.

waste of life. Next you, a century later, the chance to give voice to

:24:11.:24:16.

the millions of mouthful is dead. When we commemorate the centenary of

:24:17.:24:20.

the start of World War I, what are we remembering? Simply sack --

:24:21.:24:26.

simpler remembering the sacrifice is, for some, not enough. Perhaps we

:24:27.:24:31.

should remember what led to war and why they died, even if that trip on

:24:32.:24:36.

what day sensibilities. The soldiers who gave their lives in world will

:24:37.:24:44.

-- World War I were anything but victims. The price was

:24:45.:24:48.

excruciatingly high. And the nature of war on the Western front was

:24:49.:24:54.

awful. But it was not in vain. There were great strategic reasons to

:24:55.:25:01.

contain what Germany had in mind at the time. For some, particularly in

:25:02.:25:08.

Germany, what caused the great War is less important than what adults

:25:09.:25:13.

medley lead to. What remains is the defining event of the 20th century

:25:14.:25:17.

for Germany is, of course, the Holocaust. I think that is the

:25:18.:25:20.

difference. Rather than remembering the dead and worshipping heroes, as

:25:21.:25:27.

Britain tends to do, Germany looks at the biggest tragedy of mankind,

:25:28.:25:32.

of human history, and tries to extrapolate from that lessons for

:25:33.:25:38.

today. The BBC intends to dedicate 2500 hours of programming over the

:25:39.:25:43.

next four hours to the conflict, including 130 newly commissioned

:25:44.:25:48.

programmes. Government has set aside ?50 million for projects

:25:49.:25:50.

commemorating the start of the great War. How will that go down in

:25:51.:25:55.

Germany? With a degree of bemusement, not least because

:25:56.:25:59.

Germany, in a way, has given up on its military tradition the Second

:26:00.:26:03.

World War. The military tradition in Britain, of course, is very strong.

:26:04.:26:08.

The Germans will look at Britain and see a lot of military pomp, which

:26:09.:26:13.

will seem a bit alien. Whatever the view of the watching world, for

:26:14.:26:18.

some, most important is to tell the historical truth. You can't airbrush

:26:19.:26:23.

history just because the values of the time of history of which we

:26:24.:26:30.

speak don't coincide with today. That doesn't marry up. You can only

:26:31.:26:33.

judge it through the prism of that time, the prism of Britain, France

:26:34.:26:40.

and Germany as they were at that time. Next year, of all years, we

:26:41.:26:46.

won't forget. We will never forget. But what we choose to remember and

:26:47.:26:50.

how we remember our past may shine a light on who we are now.

:26:51.:26:52.

Andrew Murrison is the Special Representative for Great War

:26:53.:26:55.

Centenary Commemorations, as well as being a defence minister. And our

:26:56.:26:58.

guest of the day, Sir Max Hastings, also has a particular interest in

:26:59.:27:04.

this area. He has written a new book about the start of the Great Wall.

:27:05.:27:11.

Max Hastings, what is your problem with the government's commemoration

:27:12.:27:17.

programme? The Government has repeatedly used the word

:27:18.:27:21.

nonjudgemental about the approach it proposes to adopt. I am by no means

:27:22.:27:25.

the only historian that takes this view very strongly that it is not

:27:26.:27:29.

enough just to take an awful lot of schoolchildren to France and stand

:27:30.:27:32.

them in cemeteries and say, gosh, wasn't it awful? Part of a function

:27:33.:27:39.

of the commemoration - never use the word celebration - is has to be

:27:40.:27:43.

explaining why it happened. Is that not what you will do? I think this

:27:44.:27:50.

was not in vain. I think those who went to war in 1914 had a very clear

:27:51.:27:54.

sense of doing the right thing. The Prime Minister of the day was right

:27:55.:28:02.

to act as he did when Germany marched through Belgium and

:28:03.:28:06.

threatened France. We need to understand that full well, which is

:28:07.:28:11.

not in any way to be jingoistic. That would be inappropriate for the

:28:12.:28:17.

centenary. That sounds encouraging, because it suggests you have moved

:28:18.:28:20.

on from the nonjudgemental approach, which means you have

:28:21.:28:28.

listened about. Have you change? -- have you changed? Wii we debated in

:28:29.:28:34.

the House of Commons on the 7th of November, there was a surprise in

:28:35.:28:37.

amount of agreement. Furthermore, the polling data available to us

:28:38.:28:42.

suggests we are in the right place in terms of public opinion, which is

:28:43.:28:50.

always reassuring. In terms of sensitivities regarding Germany, how

:28:51.:28:53.

big a part of the Government's thinking was that? It would be an

:28:54.:29:00.

extreme irony if after the centenary of this terrible conflict we ended

:29:01.:29:05.

up in an inn have -- and unhappy place with respect to our

:29:06.:29:09.

21st-century friends and allies. We have no intention of flag-waving,

:29:10.:29:17.

being militaristic or jingoistic. One thing I find extraordinary is

:29:18.:29:20.

that all of us feel an enormous respect for modern Germany, but we

:29:21.:29:25.

don't have a problem with saying that in 1948 was absolutely right

:29:26.:29:29.

that we fought the evil of Hitler's Germany. But we sometimes have a

:29:30.:29:33.

problem with saying that in the First World War it was a problem. I

:29:34.:29:44.

was speaking to a noted historian, and she said that while the world

:29:45.:29:48.

will never forgive Hitler, they seem willing to forgive the Kaiser. I

:29:49.:29:54.

hope the Government's rhetoric for the centenary will say explicitly

:29:55.:29:59.

that all those who died, and it was a colossal tragedy, a catastrophe,

:30:00.:30:03.

there was a cause, and if Germany had won the First World War it would

:30:04.:30:07.

have been almost as ghastly a catastrophe for Europe as if Hitler

:30:08.:30:11.

had one. Do you accept that description that somehow World War

:30:12.:30:19.

II sort of dominate people's thoughts about history in the 20th

:30:20.:30:22.

century, and to some extent has eclipsed the reasons we went to war

:30:23.:30:30.

in 1914 and what was achieved? This is the difference between Max and

:30:31.:30:38.

me, I would not conflate the evils of Nazi Germany with... There was no

:30:39.:30:47.

Holocaust, but Michael Howard has made the point that Germany's

:30:48.:30:51.

territorial objectives in World War I were not much different from those

:30:52.:30:56.

of Hitler a generation later. What is hugely ironic if there is no

:30:57.:31:01.

sense of evil associated with Wilhelmine Germany, as there is with

:31:02.:31:06.

Hitler. We did not go to war for the Jews, but in 1945, the revelation of

:31:07.:31:11.

the Holocaust, in the eyes of posterity, it established the evil

:31:12.:31:15.

of Nazism, and there is nothing comparable in 1918, and this has

:31:16.:31:20.

made it difficult for people to understand why Wilhelmine Germany

:31:21.:31:23.

also would have been a very bad force is a tad won in Europe in

:31:24.:31:28.

1918. Nothing comparable for a very good reason, because Nazi Germany,

:31:29.:31:33.

national socialism and what happened as a result of it, was the very

:31:34.:31:37.

quintessence of evil. I would strongly maintain that. In terms of

:31:38.:31:41.

German attitudes, we have been working very closely with Germany,

:31:42.:31:45.

Germany is a modern, 21st century state with whom we have the closest

:31:46.:31:50.

of bonds, and I am interested to explore German thinking on this

:31:51.:31:54.

matter. They don't want to talk about it at all! They would prefer

:31:55.:31:59.

not to, but they understand they have to, because all of us,

:32:00.:32:02.

Britain, France, the former empire, we are going to be talking about it

:32:03.:32:07.

during the four-year period, and their attitude is surprisingly as is

:32:08.:32:10.

the case with so much on this centenary. What is missing for you

:32:11.:32:15.

in these commemorations? To tell people why it happened, to explain

:32:16.:32:21.

their was a cause. The Blackadder view that it was futile is simply

:32:22.:32:25.

not true, it was ghastly but not futile. There has been an awful lot

:32:26.:32:29.

about the trenches, not just the futility of it, although that has

:32:30.:32:33.

been a major part of teaching and museums' coverage of World War I,

:32:34.:32:37.

but there was a great sacrifice made for the greater good - has that not

:32:38.:32:42.

come across more recently? What I would like to see happen on this

:32:43.:32:46.

centenary, a veteran who had fought in the trenches wrote a very good

:32:47.:32:53.

book called A Schoolboy Goes To War in 1978, and he encapsulated the

:32:54.:32:57.

view that should be put across - he said he deplored the idea that the

:32:58.:33:02.

poets who said it was all futile spoke for his generation. He said, I

:33:03.:33:08.

and my kind went into the war expecting a heroic adventure and

:33:09.:33:10.

believing passionately in the justice of our cause. We are merged

:33:11.:33:14.

bitterly disillusioned about the nature of the adventure but still

:33:15.:33:17.

believing passionately in the justice of our cause. So you need to

:33:18.:33:25.

play up the heroic part of it, but it was a necessary but heroic

:33:26.:33:29.

adventure. Many people feel it was futile, that trench warfare was

:33:30.:33:32.

pointless, lives lost four inches of territory. I agree with the man that

:33:33.:33:40.

Max refers to in his extremely good book, and I think he spoke for his

:33:41.:33:44.

generation, so far as you possibly can speak for a generation. I know

:33:45.:33:48.

my own grandfather, who was involved in this, felt pretty well the same

:33:49.:33:53.

way. It was a terrible catastrophe, the title of your book was well

:33:54.:33:56.

chosen, but we have to accept that it was done for good reason, based

:33:57.:34:01.

upon the information that was available at the time in the summer

:34:02.:34:05.

of 1914. I think very few of in positions of power or responsibility

:34:06.:34:09.

today, faced with the same calculus, would make a difference decision.

:34:10.:34:14.

Briefly, what difference does it make any modern world, talking about

:34:15.:34:17.

the righteousness of this walk you Mike Watt will it change or do? If

:34:18.:34:21.

we are ever going to court about the past, we have got to grow up a bit.

:34:22.:34:29.

We have this idea that the two world wars belonged to different moral

:34:30.:34:33.

orders, that the Second World War was an heroic moment and the First

:34:34.:34:36.

World War was the bad war, and we have to get more grown-up about

:34:37.:34:40.

that, otherwise all this money being spelt, all the parade and

:34:41.:34:43.

commemorations will be for nothing unless we can explain to a new

:34:44.:34:47.

generation what this was about. Thank you very much. How good are

:34:48.:34:55.

Britain's schools? This morning new international comparisons for maths,

:34:56.:34:59.

science and reading were published. The so-called PISA rankings are

:35:00.:35:03.

produced every three years, and last time they came out the UK's showing

:35:04.:35:07.

was not particularly great. Hywel Griffith is at a school in Cardiff.

:35:08.:35:14.

Grim reading for Wales, the lowest ranked UK nation according to PISA,

:35:15.:35:20.

why so bad? That is what I have been asking people, teachers, unions this

:35:21.:35:26.

morning. The answer is complicated, but some are pointing to decisions

:35:27.:35:29.

made in the early years of devolution about ten years ago to

:35:30.:35:33.

get rid of testing, to get rid of league tables, so that some of the

:35:34.:35:37.

15-year-old who would have taken the tests in Wales last year, it would

:35:38.:35:40.

have been their first external exam. They would not have been through

:35:41.:35:45.

that kind of pressure before. Others say the schools do not really aimed

:35:46.:35:48.

towards PISA, GCSEs are much more important, so the whole ethos is

:35:49.:35:53.

geared around that set of qualifications instead of taking

:35:54.:35:56.

PISA seriously. The Welsh government has said the results are

:35:57.:36:00.

disappointing, they are on top of disappointing results three years

:36:01.:36:03.

ago. They said they have made curriculum changes as a result of

:36:04.:36:07.

the bad news three years ago, but of course it could take a decade for

:36:08.:36:10.

those to work their way through the system. The Conservatives have been

:36:11.:36:15.

quick to blame Welsh Labour, how much can be pinned on Labour in

:36:16.:36:22.

Wales? Labour has been in government here since the start of devolution

:36:23.:36:27.

and the election in 1999, so it is hard for Labour to deny that it has

:36:28.:36:32.

been in charge of the education of these 15 and 16-year-olds who we are

:36:33.:36:37.

looking at in terms PISA. However, they do point towards changes they

:36:38.:36:41.

have made more recently, which they say will eventually be better than

:36:42.:36:44.

the changes being made now by the coalition in England. There has been

:36:45.:36:48.

a very recent focus on numeracy and literacy. I think, however, if we

:36:49.:36:53.

look towards 2015, we are going to hear a lot of arguments between the

:36:54.:36:57.

coalition parties and Labour over who is doing best, and that is why

:36:58.:37:01.

the difference between Wales, Scotland, England and Northern

:37:02.:37:05.

Ireland matters, because this is Labour in government, where they

:37:06.:37:08.

have been making decisions, and sadly it is the country that is

:37:09.:37:13.

bottom of the class at the moment. Let's get onto a bit of the blame

:37:14.:37:17.

game with education Minister Elizabeth Truss and Shadow Education

:37:18.:37:20.

Secretary in the, welcome to both of you. Since 2000... Why have we not

:37:21.:37:31.

seem to matter change? I think it is a verdict on the Labour

:37:32.:37:36.

government's lack of reforms over ten years. There are only 200

:37:37.:37:42.

academies in place by the time Labour left office, and at the same

:37:43.:37:46.

time we saw rampant grade inflation over that period, but we did not see

:37:47.:37:52.

an improvement in performance in the international tests, so what has

:37:53.:37:56.

happened is a failure to reform. We are now putting in place the

:37:57.:38:01.

building blocks for form. So a new curriculum, will focus on maths and

:38:02.:38:03.

science, we are seeing the numbers of students taking those subject

:38:04.:38:09.

increasing. We are seeing academies having the freedoms they need to

:38:10.:38:13.

deliver, but the OECD has been very clear that this is too early to

:38:14.:38:18.

judge this government, that the 2012 test is a verdict on Labour's 13

:38:19.:38:22.

years in office, which resulted in Nottingham, even though Tony Blair

:38:23.:38:27.

talked about education, education, education. So in a massive climb for

:38:28.:38:34.

UK and the individual nations? We have said it will take a decade for

:38:35.:38:37.

our reforms to come through in full, and that is what we have seen in

:38:38.:38:42.

Germany and Poland, which did reforms in nearly 2000s. After a

:38:43.:38:47.

decade of putting in place school autonomy, curriculum reforms, higher

:38:48.:38:50.

standards, they started to see was old, but the full results took a

:38:51.:38:55.

decade, and we need much more long-term thinking in education.

:38:56.:38:57.

There has been too much short-term is in the past, and we have to

:38:58.:39:02.

recognise children are in school for 13 years, they need time to embed

:39:03.:39:07.

those reforms, and we need to keep going. We cannot take our foot off

:39:08.:39:12.

the accelerator. We have been carrying on with our reforms. But

:39:13.:39:16.

there has been a people, which is what teachers seem to complain

:39:17.:39:19.

about. There is no doubts that Elizabeth Truss is right, look at

:39:20.:39:23.

the figures, the timing of when Labour was in power, Labour did not

:39:24.:39:29.

do anything in terms of improving educational standards. I do not

:39:30.:39:32.

accept that in terms of the performance in England, we can come

:39:33.:39:36.

to Wales in a moment, but there is clear evidence that in the early

:39:37.:39:40.

years of Labour there were great strides forward in literacy and

:39:41.:39:44.

numeracy, there were very cool levels back in 1987, but if you look

:39:45.:39:50.

at the detail of the OECD report, we have held our position. It is a

:39:51.:39:54.

wake-up call for all of us, to look at these reports in detail, and look

:39:55.:39:57.

at the kind of reforms and messages it gives us, and the message it

:39:58.:40:01.

gives us is that what we ought to do is follow what is happening in the

:40:02.:40:06.

countries that are very successful, like any far east, where they have

:40:07.:40:10.

high standards in maths, and not follow the countries that are

:40:11.:40:12.

plummeting down the league tables, like Sweden and America, which is,

:40:13.:40:19.

strangely, the way that the government is reforming the system,

:40:20.:40:23.

by allowing unqualified teachers, by atomising and fragmenting the

:40:24.:40:26.

schools system. Instead of giving them autonomy within a framework of

:40:27.:40:31.

accountability for schools... Sweden is below us on the table. Because

:40:32.:40:37.

they do not have... I think they have profit-making free schools,

:40:38.:40:40.

something that some Tories aspire to, and their standards are falling.

:40:41.:40:45.

What is clear from these OECD results is that you need autonomy

:40:46.:40:49.

and accountability. Where you have got one and not the other, it does

:40:50.:40:53.

not work. In Wales, you have taken away accountability through league

:40:54.:40:58.

tables... So what is the excuse for you? In England we have both

:40:59.:41:03.

autonomy and accountability, exactly what Germany has achieved. It is too

:41:04.:41:07.

early, can I just finished? It is too early to see the effect of our

:41:08.:41:12.

reforms, and the OECD has been very clear that it is too early to see

:41:13.:41:16.

the effects. We are learning from the far east, we have got a lot of

:41:17.:41:21.

schools using the Singapore methods, teachers going over to

:41:22.:41:24.

Shanghai to look at their teaching methods, and we do want to see those

:41:25.:41:31.

in our schools. Kevin Brennan. The point I was making is that within

:41:32.:41:34.

the Government's reforms, I cannot see how this is the way forward,

:41:35.:41:41.

last week a school in Leeds advertised for maths teachers with a

:41:42.:41:45.

minimum qualification of four GCSEs. How will that leads to improvement?

:41:46.:41:48.

All the jurisdictions that she says she admires required teachers to be

:41:49.:41:52.

properly qualified, to have the right pedagogical teaching methods

:41:53.:41:57.

to be able to teach their subjects, and also do give autonomy to

:41:58.:42:01.

schools, and I agree on that point, but within a proper framework of

:42:02.:42:05.

accountability. I accept that she is right, accountability in the Welsh

:42:06.:42:09.

context, which we talked about earlier, was let slip in early

:42:10.:42:13.

years. Reforms have been put in place now, they should have been put

:42:14.:42:17.

in place earlier, and I agree on that point. But these reforms are

:42:18.:42:21.

going in the wrong direction in relating to allowing us to have

:42:22.:42:25.

unqualified teachers. All the evidence from PISA... All the

:42:26.:42:30.

evidence from PISA says unqualified teachers... There are no more

:42:31.:42:33.

unqualified teachers now than under Labour. And what we are seeing...

:42:34.:42:39.

That is in the private school system. Keven has just said... The

:42:40.:42:44.

other point is we have a record number of teachers with goods

:42:45.:42:52.

degrees thanks to... And actually Labour's Shadow Education Secretary

:42:53.:42:54.

did say it is the quality of the teaching that counts. Let's look at

:42:55.:43:00.

where we are as the United Kingdom and England, Scotland and Wales in

:43:01.:43:06.

the tables. The UK is around 20 and 25, but below as many eurozone

:43:07.:43:11.

countries. It is not as if we are at the bottom of European countries.

:43:12.:43:15.

You are right the Far East are at the top, but yesterday a report

:43:16.:43:20.

showed they are working 13 hours a day. Obviously, they are going to do

:43:21.:43:29.

much better. Is that what we want? This first, then Kevan. There are

:43:30.:43:34.

countries in Europe that are succeeding... Italy, generally,

:43:35.:43:39.

Spain are below us. Poland have looked at the Far East, they have

:43:40.:43:44.

done things like make core academics a focus of their curriculum for all

:43:45.:43:47.

students. They have done things like spend more time teaching those

:43:48.:43:50.

subjects, focused on teacher quality, and they have improved

:43:51.:43:55.

their results over ten years. Poland has improved its results by one

:43:56.:44:02.

whole year. What is not to like? Poland is not following the policies

:44:03.:44:07.

that this government is in relation to free schools, profit-making free

:44:08.:44:11.

schools, and unqualified teachers. You told me off for interrupting you

:44:12.:44:15.

and you have not let me have a say. They have not been following the

:44:16.:44:19.

policy of free schools. Where they have copied that from, profit-making

:44:20.:44:23.

free schools, unqualified teachers in Sweden, they have plummeted down

:44:24.:44:27.

the league tables, and the same is true in America, because it is a

:44:28.:44:30.

race to the bottom, that is what they found in those countries. I do

:44:31.:44:34.

not think any party can make partisan points out of this... They

:44:35.:44:40.

try quite hard! All parties of government have failed to grapple

:44:41.:44:43.

with the enormity, the huge problem that everybody in Britain with half

:44:44.:44:47.

a brain knows, that the shortcomings of the educational system have a lot

:44:48.:44:52.

to answer for. We have not mentioned the educational establishment. I

:44:53.:44:55.

greatly admire Michael Gove, whatever one's quibbles some of

:44:56.:45:00.

these reforms and their small print, but he is willing to take on the

:45:01.:45:03.

educational establishment, the people who have been running schools

:45:04.:45:07.

for 50 years who have abysmally failed. No government until Michael

:45:08.:45:10.

Gove had the nerve to take on these people. You say abysmally failed,

:45:11.:45:21.

isn't that just a blanket representation? We have children not

:45:22.:45:25.

only unemployed but unemployable after leaving school. We need to do

:45:26.:45:32.

better, no doubt. Over many decades... I remember when I was in

:45:33.:45:38.

school, Jim Callaghan called for a rate education debate, and I was a

:45:39.:45:42.

teacher myself in leaky Portakabin classrooms. It has been a long-term

:45:43.:45:49.

solution, let -- it has been a long-term problem, let's look for

:45:50.:45:54.

solutions which do not downgrade the teaching profession so much that it

:45:55.:45:57.

does not even require a qualification. We now have a very

:45:58.:46:04.

good cohort of teachers, it is under threat from Government policy. Under

:46:05.:46:09.

Labour, fewer students studied subjects like science and languages

:46:10.:46:13.

and we diverted into other subjects, students were lied to about the

:46:14.:46:17.

importance of those subjects. Germany and Poland have a core of

:46:18.:46:24.

academics subjects, like the English baccalaureate. We have moored

:46:25.:46:28.

students following those subjects and we have better qualified

:46:29.:46:31.

teachers. I accept that we are learning from Germany and Poland,

:46:32.:46:35.

they have given schools greater autonomy. Allah if you are learning

:46:36.:46:42.

from Germany and Poland, why have you copied Sweden? Thank you both.

:46:43.:46:45.

With most of the big energy companies announcing

:46:46.:46:47.

inflation-busting increases to bills this autumn, Ed Miliband has made

:46:48.:46:50.

much of the political running with his promise of a price freeze.

:46:51.:46:53.

Yesterday, the Government responded. The Energy Secretary, Ed Davey, went

:46:54.:46:56.

to the Commons to set out proposals which would lower the impact of

:46:57.:46:57.

price rises on consumers. We must ensure that the changes we

:46:58.:47:10.

make maintain the support provided to the most vulnerable, then came

:47:11.:47:15.

the investment in clean energy and do not have a negative thing capped

:47:16.:47:20.

and our carbon reduction ambitions -- maintain the investment in clean

:47:21.:47:27.

energy. We have looked at the cost profile, I can announce proposals

:47:28.:47:31.

that would reduce the average household bill next year by ?50 on

:47:32.:47:37.

average. The sum total of everything he has said today, including

:47:38.:47:42.

spending ?600 million of taxpayers' money and weakening the obligation

:47:43.:47:46.

on energy companies to deliver energy efficiency is that the energy

:47:47.:47:50.

companies will still be allowed to put up bills this winter. Does he

:47:51.:47:56.

really think that is a good deal for consumers? I noticed that she did

:47:57.:48:04.

not welcome this cut in energy bills for her constituents. Her

:48:05.:48:07.

constituents will want to know why she was not prepared to welcome it.

:48:08.:48:11.

For every Labour member who stands up today, we want to know if they

:48:12.:48:16.

will welcome it for their constituents? We looked at the

:48:17.:48:20.

energy freeze proposal from the opposition and were very clear that

:48:21.:48:25.

it would not work. We've only got to ask the Secretary of State what he

:48:26.:48:29.

has been doing for the last three and a half years. He told people to

:48:30.:48:38.

wear pullovers. If you work out what people are being offered, it is less

:48:39.:48:43.

than 90p a week from their energy bills. How does this square up with

:48:44.:48:47.

the bedroom tax, which will affect a lot of poor people in this country?

:48:48.:48:51.

This must be one of the most cruel governments we have ever had. He

:48:52.:48:59.

hiked up energy prices when he was Secretary of State for energy and he

:49:00.:49:02.

is now trying to keep them at that level. We have heard the same type

:49:03.:49:08.

of claptrap we heard from the leader of the opposition. Can I tell the

:49:09.:49:12.

Secretary of State for energy that my constituents want the government

:49:13.:49:15.

to source the cheapest rather than the greenest energy. Max Hastings,

:49:16.:49:22.

it has dominated the political debate, the argument over energy and

:49:23.:49:27.

prices. Has the government neutralise the issue? Not for a

:49:28.:49:32.

minute, they have no energy policy. In 2010I wrote a newspaper column

:49:33.:49:38.

saying I thought that David Cameron would bitterly regret turning over

:49:39.:49:42.

energy policy to the Lib Dems, who see like milk and have no credible

:49:43.:49:48.

idea at all, including Ed Davey, who is quite unfit to be Energy

:49:49.:49:53.

Secretary... Except the Conservatives said they were going

:49:54.:49:56.

to be the most green government in history. I have read in the paper a

:49:57.:50:04.

couple of days ago that we will be very lucky to get through more than

:50:05.:50:06.

a couple of winters without interruption to supply. This is

:50:07.:50:11.

almost criminal negligence on the part of the Government. We are

:50:12.:50:15.

talking about keeping prices down, in the real world, energy prices

:50:16.:50:20.

have nowhere to go but up. I am sure it is a huge political problem. Read

:50:21.:50:26.

milk -- Ed Miliband is responsible... But how would you

:50:27.:50:32.

persuade the energy companies to invest on the scale desperately

:50:33.:50:36.

needed as the coal-fired power stations are shutdown unless you

:50:37.:50:40.

allow them to make profits? Neither party is doing very well, neither

:50:41.:50:46.

has a credible energy policy. Is it right for David Cameron to say he is

:50:47.:50:50.

trying to do something to roll back the green levies, even though in

:50:51.:50:55.

practice it is social progress he is rolling back? Is he right to tackle

:50:56.:51:02.

it? He had to face the fact that it would cost consumers as well as

:51:03.:51:05.

Government an enormous amount of money to be, as green as Europe and

:51:06.:51:09.

successive governments promised. It will make it fantastically difficult

:51:10.:51:13.

for British industry to compete with the United States. We will have huge

:51:14.:51:21.

problems. There is a dilemma, but the Lib Dems have never really been

:51:22.:51:26.

serious. Neither of the two main parties are being serious about

:51:27.:51:30.

saying to the public, we will have to face difficult dilemmas to keep

:51:31.:51:35.

the lights on and our laptops going. That is the argument they put

:51:36.:51:39.

forward having a renewables policy, if you invest properly and pay for

:51:40.:51:43.

insulation programmes, bills will come down as a result? We will never

:51:44.:51:48.

produce anything like enough energy to keep the lights on. The Royal

:51:49.:51:53.

Academy Of Mechanical Engineering produced a fantastic report which I

:51:54.:52:00.

recommend to everybody coming in to Government. This report was

:52:01.:52:04.

devastating, about the negligence of politicians about future supply. But

:52:05.:52:09.

isn't Ed Miliband right to say that whether you like the energy freeze

:52:10.:52:14.

idea or not, that breaking up the market in that period of time...

:52:15.:52:20.

That is a different kettle of fish. It is the idea of just a blanket

:52:21.:52:25.

freeze on prizes... So you agree with the policy... You only get

:52:26.:52:31.

proper competition with a real range of choice. Thank you.

:52:32.:52:37.

He is the Conservative MEP who spent nearly half a decade as the deputy

:52:38.:52:42.

leader of the UK Independence Party, and even stood for the UKIP

:52:43.:52:47.

leadership twice. Then in 2011, seven years after walking away, he

:52:48.:52:52.

rejoined the Conservative Party. Happy to be a Tory again? Yes. Happy

:52:53.:52:57.

for Britain to be a member of the European Union? You must be joking.

:52:58.:53:03.

He remains a deeply outspoken critic of the EU, and this week the

:53:04.:53:08.

Conservative MEP has a new book out. It is called Time To Jump and argues

:53:09.:53:15.

wide the EU should consider -- why the UK should consider quitting the

:53:16.:53:20.

EU. The cover has the UK depicted as a lobster in a pot of water, why are

:53:21.:53:25.

you so convinced that boiling point is approaching? We are getting these

:53:26.:53:31.

major problems like immigration, it is clear to everyone that we are

:53:32.:53:39.

lacking control of our own borders. Immigration has been a big thing for

:53:40.:53:43.

many years, why at this particular point? Romanians and Bulgarians

:53:44.:53:50.

coming in is a big issue. What I argue in my book is for Swiss style

:53:51.:53:59.

controls. They are able to differentiate between old EU nations

:54:00.:54:02.

where there is not much of a problem and a new and developing nations

:54:03.:54:06.

where you will get larger numbers coming through. I would probably

:54:07.:54:12.

share many of his concerns. I call myself a lifelong European but of

:54:13.:54:17.

late, I have come to believe that we cannot stay in Europe on any terms.

:54:18.:54:21.

I don't know what she would say to this, but I was at an Anglo-German

:54:22.:54:28.

conference where one the of biggest German industrialists spoke very

:54:29.:54:31.

rationally and said, we all hope Britain will remain within the EU,

:54:32.:54:36.

but we recognise that it is quite possible that they will go out. You

:54:37.:54:40.

said, I would like to say to my British friends with the latest

:54:41.:54:44.

politeness, if you leave, you will find it very cold out there. And

:54:45.:54:49.

where I find myself in a less comfortable position than you is

:54:50.:54:52.

that on the one hand I totally agree that the European project has gone

:54:53.:54:57.

horribly wrong, but I also believe that German industrialist when he

:54:58.:55:03.

said that when we leave we will have a very tough time. I have been to

:55:04.:55:11.

Norway, they have the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world.

:55:12.:55:19.

It is a very small population. It is a different country, you can compare

:55:20.:55:25.

the EU to Norway? We have the largest financial centre in the

:55:26.:55:29.

world, we are big globalists. Nine tenths of the growth in the world

:55:30.:55:33.

will come from outside the EU. White tie ourselves to the EU with red

:55:34.:55:39.

tape? We employ 1 million Germans, hundreds of thousands of French, I

:55:40.:55:47.

believe we will negotiate. I don't know anybody that I would call

:55:48.:55:50.

numerous and sophisticated in the City of London who would... One of

:55:51.:55:57.

the top asset managers said this. I think the tide is turning. We have

:55:58.:56:03.

to look at the facts, it is a plus and minus relationship. You can get

:56:04.:56:08.

a fantastic trade deal, I am on the trade committee of the European

:56:09.:56:12.

Parliament... You can't guarantee it. We are the largest single

:56:13.:56:18.

customer, they would be crazy... What is least credible about

:56:19.:56:21.

everything that UKIP and the Tory right say about Europe is to suggest

:56:22.:56:25.

that the sun will shine, the weather will get better, the England cricket

:56:26.:56:30.

team will do brilliantly. In the real, modern world, do you believe

:56:31.:56:38.

life is that easy? I do. I work with these EA countries like Switzerland

:56:39.:56:42.

all the time in my work as an MEP. Switzerland is the third-largest

:56:43.:56:46.

trading partner with the EU, we can get a British option, which I am

:56:47.:56:54.

calling EA Light, between Norway and Switzerland. What about the

:56:55.:57:00.

negotiations, they are doomed? There is no way that David Cameron could

:57:01.:57:06.

ever negotiate a settlement? I supported referendum policy, and

:57:07.:57:11.

there will be a clear choice between renegotiated in, or negotiated out.

:57:12.:57:18.

Leave it to the people. Thank you for coming in.

:57:19.:57:22.

Now to return to the story about the Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger

:57:23.:57:25.

appearing before a parliamentary committee to answer questions about

:57:26.:57:28.

whether the newspaper compromise national security. The Guardian has

:57:29.:57:32.

sent a statement to respond to some of the things that Mack said. They

:57:33.:57:37.

have said that the Guardian has not published any names and has redacted

:57:38.:57:39.

and deleted information as appropriate.

:57:40.:58:03.

I prefer to listen to the heads of the intelligence services and the

:58:04.:58:10.

Commons select committee. But that is a pretty strong a bottle. They

:58:11.:58:15.

would say that, wouldn't they? I stick with what I said. Although

:58:16.:58:19.

there is a real dilemma, and I do not believe that scrutineers

:58:20.:58:25.

adequate, I believe that there will be more appropriate arbiters of

:58:26.:58:27.

national security than Alan Rusbridger. Very briefly, the quiz.

:58:28.:58:33.

And we asked you to pick the odd one out - London cabs, High Speed Two,

:58:34.:58:37.

Heathrow airport, Weetabix? I presume HS2 is there because they

:58:38.:58:43.

have been talking about the Chinese building it for us. I think they are

:58:44.:58:46.

involved in all the other things we mentioned. Thank you for being our

:58:47.:58:51.

guest of the day. Andrew and I will be back at 11:30am tomorrow with

:58:52.:58:54.

Prime Minister's Questions. Goodbye.

:58:55.:58:57.

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