09/12/2013 Daily Politics


09/12/2013

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including problems with the government's flagship welfare reforms, and entrepreneur Lawrence Tomlinson.


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Transcript


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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Work and Pensions

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Secretary Iain Duncan Smith faces MPs as he tries to explain why the

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Government's flagship welfare reform has been knocked off course.

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Christmas has come early to Westminster - MPs are to get an 11%

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pay rise - have they really been that well-behaved?

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Abuse in Britain's care homes - can the system cope with financial and

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demographic pressures? And Parliamentarians prepare to make

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their tribute to Nelson Mandela - we'll hear how he inspired British

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politicians. All that in the next hour. And with

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us for the first half of the programme today is Lawrence

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Tomlinson, entrepreneur-in-residence at the Department for Business,

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Innovation and Skills. Every department should have one. Welcome

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to the programme, Lawrence. Thank you.

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This afternoon, the Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith

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will be appearing before a committee of MPs to answer questions about the

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implementation of the flagship universal credit scheme. The new

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benefit, which replaces six separate payments, is being gradually rolled

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out. But last week his department admitted that not quite everybody

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will have been transferred onto the new scheme by the planned 2017

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deadline. That seems quite a change from what he said just three months

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ago when he insisted that all was fine. Here he is speaking in the

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Commons, and then again in an interview from last week.

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Unlike the previous Government, who went and crashed one IT programme

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after another, no Government minister ever intervened to change

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them early so they delivered on time. We are not doing that. I have

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taken action on this particular programme. This programme will

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deliver on time and in budget. Universal credit, the plan that we

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are putting forward, expanding from the Pathfinder and rolling out, it

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will essentially be complete and rolling out, it will essentially be

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complete under that plan by 2017. We may take a little longer on those

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who are already in ESA with no work requirement on them, because they

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are very vulnerable and we may want to take a bit more time with them.

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They need to be processed and dealt with carefully.

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And with us now is the Shadow Employment Minister, Stephen Timms

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and the Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng, who is on the work and

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pensions select committee. Welcome, both. Kwasi Kwarteng, on

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time, in budget, those words will come back to haunt Iain Duncan

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Smith. In September, he said the scheme was still on-time and on

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budget, is not. A man was brought in who did very well at the Olympics,

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he suggested that we should take more time, and the reason we are

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doing that is, as I understand, people who are very vulnerable will

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be exposed to any mistakes made. It is much better that the programme

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should be done more slowly and that we get it right than that we should

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rush out and get things wrong. At the end of the day, it will be very

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vulnerable people affected and harmed. How much longer? I'm not

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entirely sure how much longer it will take. Iain Duncan Smith has not

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put a date on it, 2017 will not be the final date. It is fine for the

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opposition to jump up and down and say there has been a delay, but the

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Government is right in saying it is important to get it right than

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Herriot and get it wrong. I think there might be a personal reason why

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Iain Duncan Smith has said there would be no delay, while the rest of

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us have seen there would be and now we can see it. It is a shambles.

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Ministers fail to grasp the scale of the project. Public Accounts

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Committee made that point. And they fail to decide exactly what they

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wanted to build, and started building the IT before they made the

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decision. Some of the key decisions have not been made. They need to

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work out now what exactly this system is going to be, then to build

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the IT to deliver it. It is easy to lose sight of the big picture,

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universal credit is much better than anything Labour had. But it has to

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work. Of course. We had a period of chronic worklessness, people on

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benefits over ten years in the last Government, this is a much more

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effective and more simple way of getting benefits to people who need

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it most. Labour do not, I understand, oppose the principle.

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You support the broad idea? We have always thought the principle was

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very sensible, but it has been delayed until after the general

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election. The the risk is that it could be delayed longer. We need

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action to get it back on track. We have agreed between the two Mark Roe

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of you that you are in favour of universal credit. -- between the two

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of you. Did Iain Duncan Smith bury his head in the sand when, if we are

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to believe Labour, they knew it was coming off the tracks? I think it is

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rich for Labour to complain about the implementation, for 13 years

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their operating system was inefficient and did not incentivise

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people to get a job stop we are all here now, realising it will not be

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online by 2017. Is it because it was too big a challenge for the civil

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servants meant to be putting it in motion? You don't even know what you

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will be putting into action? The initial green paper said it would

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not be a major IT project, that was a ridiculous claim. I think that is

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fair, it was a huge IT project with teething problems. We had this with

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the NHS in the last Government, ?113 billion was wasted. How much has

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been wasted on this? There are conflicting reports, the Public

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health committee said ?140 million, we dispute that. It is likely to go

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up. The suggestion is that ?300 million could be written off so far.

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It looks as though they will build two different systems now, the

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Francis Maude system and the Iain Duncan Smith system. Goodness knows

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how much that will cost. Will there be two schemes running alongside

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each other? Two IT systems, but both will be used. The money has not all

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been written off. The public health committee did not write it all.

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Francis Maude thinks you should go to the beginning and start again. If

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that was the case, it would sound like a shambles, if you had to go

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back to the drawing board and start again. I think the want about by

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extension will be used in the final delivery. IT projects are difficult

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for government, is that the same in the private sector, or is their

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advice the private sector could give in terms of procurement and finding

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the right companies to set up? I don't know, but it is good to see

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two politicians generally agree on about the right direction. I am from

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the private sector and have worked in Government in business,

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innovation and skills for a period of time. People in those departments

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work incredibly hard to implement these systems, I am sure the DWP

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will be doing the same and will hopefully get to the end of it. Who

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is to blame? Should Iain Duncan Smith take personal responsibility?

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I don't think so. I think there was a problem with the implementation of

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the IT, there were operational issues. And how Shippey has been

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brought in as an independent person with good operational experience. We

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warned about these problems three years ago. Iain Duncan Smith

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emphasised in his response how much he was personally supervising the

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project. He was warned it would take much longer than he said, he ignored

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the warnings, he should take responsibility. How should he take

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responsibility? In my view, he should be considering his position.

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That is ridiculous. It is customary for Shadow Ministers to say the

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minister should resign, of course he should not. It is the right scheme

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going in the right direction, incentivising people to go into

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work. Howard Shipley has said that they need to take their time to make

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sure it goes on the right direction. Two we are calling for cross-party

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talks. How would they achieve this plan getting online? That would seem

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to imply that the government does not want to get it online, when they

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do. There has been too much secrecy over the last few years, a refusal

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to own up to what is going, a good news culture. We need openness, we

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need to be able to see what is going on and a target, which we are

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confident will be delivered. Of course we need transparency. That is

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why the Secretary of State is appearing before a committee this

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afternoon, we will be asking questions and there will be

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openness. We would like to knows that questions you have post, why it

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has taken as long as it has, when he thinks the scheme can be delivered

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fully by. It struck us as strange that the announcements came out that

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the deadline would be almost on the day of the Autumn Statement, was

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that a case of bearing bad news? As you know, there are lots of

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conflicting issues with timing. A big issue as a flagship government

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programme missing its deadline. We have two and a half weeks to

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Christmas, it is probably a good time. The NHS Labour write-off could

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be ?10 billion. We all hoped lessons had been learned, sadly they have

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not. The old mistakes and words have been repeated. The value is almost

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more than 100 times the value that has been suggested we should write

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off in this case. Kwasi Kwarteng and Stephen Timms, thank you. Something

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a little different now. Time for our daily quiz. Ed Balls is learning to

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play the piano. And yesterday, after answering some tricky questions from

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the media following the Autumn Statement, he performed in his first

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public recital. So what did he play? Was it Chopsticks, Der Dichter

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Spricht by Schumann, Angels by Robbie Williams - Ed Miliband's

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favourite song - or The Hills are Alive from the Sound of Music? We'll

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give you the correct answer at the end of the show.

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Now, want to be a wildly successful racing driving entrepreneur like our

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guest of the day? Here's how. When he's not hot desk in the

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business department one day a week, Lawrence Tomlinson will be found

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here at his factory in Yorkshire. I did not realise there was no oil in

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there. Is he coming from Spain to test it? Is that a reverse gear?

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His company makes sports cars, export them, runs a championship

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with them and Lawrence races them. Would be drive that he has two make

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sure that car is winning every single race, I suppose you could

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say, is phenomenal. Does he ever lose his temper? I have seen it on a

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few occasions, luckily never at me. This is Lawrence's own car. You

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could have won for just ?68,000. Oh, and there is an 18 month waiting

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list. If cars are his passion, here is his mission, a chain of 36 care

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homes. Have you heard about Lawrence Tomlinson, the owner?

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I know his name and I have met him once. He was very sharp, very quick

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and out, but he was very nice. He spoke. That he was like a whirlwind.

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Lawrence does not just run these places, he has another firm building

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them for other people and yet another providing software for them.

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All from fairly humble beginnings. When he was 24, his parents had a

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care home adapted from a large, existing property. Somebody came to

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buy it, Lawrence looked up the deal and even though he was working in an

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engineering job he said, I can see value in that. So instead of a

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third-party buying the home, Laurence bought both that home and

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the home of the person trying to buy it, which got him into care, he has

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never looked since. What got into the headlines was his investigation

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into RBS. He accused one of their divisions of forcing customers out

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of business so the bank could buy their assets at bargain basement

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prices. Some were surprised by the strident tone of the report. Let's

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ask his boss. Is there a danger that all those qualities that make a

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great businessman make him a live wire in the Whitehall Government

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world? I'm not making a character

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assessment, I don't know him very well. I have seen his work, it is

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sufficiently disturbing that I have passed it on to the regulators and

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as them to follow up. I know the bank taking this very seriously.

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Their business theory that Lawrence only took action against RBS because

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he is an aggrieved customer angry with the bank because they made him

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feel like a loser -- there is a theory that. Let's discuss that

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controversial report Lawrence Tomlinson wrote about the banks'

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treatment of small business. We asked for an interview with RBS, who

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bore the brunt of Lawrence's criticism. They didn't want to talk

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to us this morning but they did give us this statement:

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we are joined by the city analyst, Louise Cooper. First of all, where

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is your evidence? My evidence is in the dossier of evidence that I

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compiled in the report. Isn't it anecdotal? No, we have done a lot of

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analysis, we probably had 200 cases that we looked at, distilled into

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the first report. Isn't it the case that the treatment by the turnaround

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divisions, the departments that deal with customers in difficulty, it is

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no wonder that many of them ended up going out of business, it is a fact

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of business life and they would do anything to say their businesses are

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fine. I would agree entirely on that point but these are businesses that

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we looked at, people we spoke to who were not in that position. Had that

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been the case, or had it been the case that this was happening between

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2008 and 2010, when the bank was in turmoil and we bailed the bank out,

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I would have certainly accepted that. But these are cases that are

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different from those you described. What was your reaction? It was a

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very serious allegation, to say that firms who were in good health were

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deliberately being put on life support, which would benefit the

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bank itself. If you look at the statistics from the insolvency

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service, you could actually argue, almost the entire opposite. That in

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fact, banks have been very restrained and highly tolerant of

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business is in trouble. If you look at the corporate liquidation,

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companies that have been wound down, in 2002, before the crisis, there

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was over 16,000 corporate liquidation is. If you look at every

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year since the crisis, only one year where the number has been

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significantly more than that. If you look at compulsory liquidations,

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where companies are forced to go bust, that is actually now lower. In

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2011, 503. 2012, 421. The actual statistics paint a very different

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picture. Why does your report not follow the line of statistics? That

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is interesting, those are overall statistics for the banking industry.

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If you look at RBS geology, only 6% of there's a meeting in London on

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if you think that less than one in ten are coming back into normal

:19:04.:19:10.

banking from GRG, that is really interesting.

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When capital is cheap and easy and there is a lot about, the line for

:19:17.:19:21.

when a company is viable is a generous to the Company, because

:19:22.:19:26.

money is cheap. Money may be cheap now but it is not plentiful. Banks

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almost went bust, they need to rebuild their balance sheets.

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Capital is no longer everywhere. Capital is very restrained.

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Therefore banks have to react to be in bar and they are in. The

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complaint has been that they are not lending to small businesses. RBS

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were lending 55 billion to companies, they are now lending 38

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billion, so they have shrunk that tremendously. They have shrunk the

:19:56.:20:00.

whole of their Labour, it is a much smaller than it ever was. They have

:20:01.:20:05.

reduced the balance sheet by 900 billion. They have gone from 55 to

:20:06.:20:11.

38. These are businesses that were viable, clearly viable and were sent

:20:12.:20:15.

down a road... That is what the report says. Who knows, none of us

:20:16.:20:23.

are fortune-tellers. I am happy to have made a judgement on some of

:20:24.:20:28.

these cases. I had 200 cases that I put into the report. Since then I

:20:29.:20:34.

have had another, roughly 300 cases. I am looking at 500 cases. Of which

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I reject a lot. I just can't believe that this isn't systematic. In the

:20:42.:20:48.

report, and this is what I am asking RBS to investigate... And they are

:20:49.:20:53.

going to. They couldn't ignore an allegation of that seriousness. They

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have instructed Clifford Chance and people who have seen the report and

:20:59.:21:06.

the evidence are also shocked. One of the accusations made in the film

:21:07.:21:10.

was about your nation ship with RBS and whether that should have been

:21:11.:21:13.

declared. -- your relationship or the pew do not have declared that

:21:14.:21:17.

RBS had given you a big overdraft and you were in dispute? -- should

:21:18.:21:30.

you not have declared? Everybody who came to me asked to be an because

:21:31.:21:34.

they are so frightened of what they say is happening in GRG. Should you

:21:35.:21:41.

have disclosed it to Vince Cable? It was clear to Vince Cable and the

:21:42.:21:46.

department, when I started this job, that that was the case. This

:21:47.:21:53.

dispute I have is absolutely irrelevant. I wish it was another

:21:54.:21:58.

bank that I was speaking about, not one I have an ongoing relationship

:21:59.:22:05.

with. The relationship to banks from the public is hardly good and a lot

:22:06.:22:08.

of people will say it is totally credible. They could believe that

:22:09.:22:13.

those practices were going on. Businesses will anecdotally have

:22:14.:22:17.

strong evidence to say not only were we not lend to, they will not even

:22:18.:22:22.

answer phone calls. Why are you so sceptical? Banker bashing is a

:22:23.:22:30.

terribly popular pastime for all classes of our society. It is not

:22:31.:22:35.

that I am sceptical. I am sure there will be some appallingly bad cases

:22:36.:22:39.

and that makes me very unhappy. My concern is that we have anecdotal

:22:40.:22:42.

evidence only, and you are turning that into a trend. Which I can't

:22:43.:22:50.

quite get there. 450 cases don't follow a trend? Is that

:22:51.:22:57.

realistically true? The second thing is none of us are fortune-tellers.

:22:58.:23:02.

We cannot predict the future. Making a decision as to whether a business

:23:03.:23:08.

is viable or not is very difficult. They will sometimes get it wrong,

:23:09.:23:12.

there will sometimes get it right. Nobody from the outside can say, it

:23:13.:23:18.

is viable, it is not viable. The easiest thing, I am happy to sit

:23:19.:23:21.

down in a room with Louise and show her the evidence, and she will be

:23:22.:23:25.

truly shocked about what has been going on, in fact. You can go and do

:23:26.:23:32.

that at a time convenient to both of you. How have civil servants

:23:33.:23:39.

responded to your report? The civil servants have seen the main body of

:23:40.:23:43.

the evidence and are appalled by what has been happening. They have

:23:44.:23:48.

been very supportive. Thank you very much.

:23:49.:23:54.

There is a meeting in London on Wednesday, bringing together experts

:23:55.:23:57.

from the worlds largest economies to focus on the growing problem of

:23:58.:24:00.

dementia. The incurable condition is one that's putting increasing

:24:01.:24:03.

pressure on care homes - in terms of capacity but also the quality of

:24:04.:24:07.

care. That was an issue brought into sharp focus by a Panorama programme,

:24:08.:24:10.

broadcast in 2011, which exposed terrible abuse in Winterbourne View

:24:11.:24:14.

private hospital. Let's take a look at a clip from that disturbing

:24:15.:24:17.

programme now, which contains footage some viewers may find

:24:18.:24:18.

upsetting. This is a residential hospital. It

:24:19.:24:30.

is supposed to care for adults with learning difficulties. People unable

:24:31.:24:38.

to care for themselves. But Panorama has been undercover, and found

:24:39.:24:44.

systematic abuse. Patients suffering. Staff out of control.

:24:45.:24:57.

Away from their families, these were patients without a voice.

:24:58.:25:07.

Disturbing footage indeed. Here with me now is Caroline

:25:08.:25:11.

Abrahams from Age UK, the former Care Minister and Lib Dem MP Paul

:25:12.:25:15.

Burstow, and Lawrence Tomlinson is still with us - his company runs

:25:16.:25:21.

more than 50 care homes. We will make the distinction between the

:25:22.:25:25.

footage from a private hospital as opposed to a care home, as you

:25:26.:25:30.

brought up with me. The film showed abuse by carers in the hospital

:25:31.:25:34.

rather than elderly care homes. Generally, for all of us who will

:25:35.:25:38.

have to rely on monitors, being cared for later in life, out of

:25:39.:25:41.

their own home, it is a worry isn't it? It is a huge worry. The

:25:42.:25:46.

landscape going forward is particularly worrying. There is

:25:47.:25:51.

about a three-year time to build new facilities so even if we started to

:25:52.:25:57.

date, two built these facilities for people with dementia, you are

:25:58.:26:00.

talking a big time delay -- if we started today, to build these

:26:01.:26:06.

facilities. You are talking three years from deciding to build a care

:26:07.:26:09.

home, from having one care home operating. How big a problem will

:26:10.:26:15.

that be? It is right that there is that time lag but there is a bigger

:26:16.:26:20.

issue, a societal one. There is a structural lag in society in terms

:26:21.:26:24.

of ageing. We are about 20 years behind where ageing really is.

:26:25.:26:28.

People are living much longer and that doesn't mean we will need more,

:26:29.:26:32.

but different sorts of care institutions in the future. -- that

:26:33.:26:33.

doesn't mean. -- that does mean. The -- we have care in people's

:26:34.:26:47.

homes care homes, and some facilities do enough but we are --

:26:48.:26:55.

need to see more. We get cases from time to time that we would look into

:26:56.:26:59.

and investigate fully. Which is what you would expect to do. We give

:27:00.:27:04.

everyone that works for me, 2000 people, give them all an iPhone,

:27:05.:27:08.

they have a button and they can contact me directly if they think

:27:09.:27:13.

there is something going wrong. We would be encouraging whistle-blowing

:27:14.:27:15.

and we have fantastic staff and great training. It is very difficult

:27:16.:27:20.

in the current financial environment, with local authorities.

:27:21.:27:25.

I am dealing with 152 local authorities, it is never easy. That

:27:26.:27:30.

is the point, finances are important. If you are talking about

:27:31.:27:34.

the number of care homes and people being paid a reasonable salary to do

:27:35.:27:37.

a very difficult job, is that part of the problem in terms of cases of

:27:38.:27:44.

neglect and abuse? It is probably the biggest problem. The inspector

:27:45.:27:48.

has just done a report on care homes and found there was an association

:27:49.:27:52.

between turnover of staff and incidence of neglect. If you have an

:27:53.:27:58.

unstable staff because people can't really afford to be there, you're

:27:59.:28:03.

going to get problems. How widespread is it? When you see that

:28:04.:28:07.

sort of footage, it is very disturbing. Is it rare, or is it

:28:08.:28:13.

quite widespread? The same report I refer to found that one in ten care

:28:14.:28:19.

homes have an issue they need to address, but not like that, that was

:28:20.:28:23.

a horrible and graphic situation. But patients not being given enough

:28:24.:28:27.

help to eat and drink, that is unfortunately quite a lot more

:28:28.:28:31.

common. You are interesting local authorities at a time when their

:28:32.:28:36.

budgets have been cut, a lot of them are taking money out of social care

:28:37.:28:39.

budgets, that is the government's fault Test

:28:40.:28:46.

this is a sector that is very much the orphan when it comes to how care

:28:47.:28:52.

is looked at in this country. It has a stigma around it. But there are

:28:53.:28:56.

good care homes and we don't focus enough on the good, we tend to just

:28:57.:29:01.

report the bad. You said they are good because you have training and

:29:02.:29:06.

are paying them a reasonable wage. It starts with physical environment

:29:07.:29:08.

that people are working in and designing it to be fit for purpose.

:29:09.:29:13.

Investment is key in the sector going forward. We have to create an

:29:14.:29:17.

environment where people want to leave hospital, not be pushing

:29:18.:29:23.

people out of hospital. I am doing some work with them -- with DEMOS

:29:24.:29:34.

and we want to make sure we close the gap between the perception of

:29:35.:29:37.

people who work in the sector and those who have erect experience

:29:38.:29:40.

because family members are already in, who think care in care homes is

:29:41.:29:45.

better -- who have direct experience. We want to make them

:29:46.:29:53.

more like homes. We make sure they are genuinely hub is in the

:29:54.:29:57.

community, where services are provided to not just those living

:29:58.:30:00.

there but others in the community. And also they have greater

:30:01.:30:03.

involvement in the community through voluntary work. Would that bring

:30:04.:30:08.

down the number of cases of abuse and neglect? I think it would.

:30:09.:30:13.

Everybody knows it is closed environments where abuse can thrive,

:30:14.:30:19.

where anything can be going on and nobody can see. The more ordinary

:30:20.:30:21.

members of the public going in and out, the better. If something is

:30:22.:30:26.

going wrong, it is more likely to be picked up early. How important is

:30:27.:30:31.

the inspection regime, in terms of keeping control of what is going on

:30:32.:30:40.

in care homes? We should not relying on CQC. We have internal audits, the

:30:41.:30:45.

way we look at other quality, then we have external people looking at

:30:46.:30:50.

our quality before CQC come in. CQC is important, and they are picking

:30:51.:30:56.

up at the end. Should it be a tougher regime of inspection? It

:30:57.:31:04.

will be tougher, there can be potential criminal prosecution. One

:31:05.:31:08.

of those is ranking the level of homes in tables? There will be a

:31:09.:31:14.

return to the star rating system which the Labour Party scrapped full

:31:15.:31:21.

stop -- scrapped. Does that improve the standard of care home? People

:31:22.:31:26.

are understanding more through social media that they can vet where

:31:27.:31:30.

they want to go. The one line, look at the reports. If you are looking

:31:31.:31:37.

at placing someone, understand it. Is the Government spending enough?

:31:38.:31:45.

Whether it is the Government or the local authority, there needs to be a

:31:46.:31:49.

linking between quality and outcome and the amount they pay, not just a

:31:50.:31:53.

flat rate. That needs to change across the UK. What about staff?

:31:54.:32:00.

What do you think should change in terms of staff recruitment into care

:32:01.:32:05.

homes? Reign we have to pay people more to do one important than

:32:06.:32:10.

stressful job. At least a living wage, I think. I think many staff

:32:11.:32:17.

are on minimum wage, which is why we have high staff turnover. People in

:32:18.:32:21.

charge of the homes are crucial. We know the leadership of an

:32:22.:32:24.

institution is important, when places have not done very well and

:32:25.:32:29.

suddenly get better it is usually because someone good has gone to run

:32:30.:32:34.

the home. Would you be happy to put your elderly relatives in a care

:32:35.:32:38.

home? That is why I am doing this, to hope that if I have to do that it

:32:39.:32:45.

would be good quality. It is the right case for people to be

:32:46.:32:49.

sometimes, but I would like more options for supported care Housing

:32:50.:32:53.

in between, not just at home or in a care home, lots of stages in

:32:54.:32:59.

between. With more and more people going to become old over the next

:33:00.:33:02.

ten or 20 years, do you honestly think the problem will only get

:33:03.:33:10.

worse, not better? The government needs to put more money into social

:33:11.:33:15.

care. There are signs of hope. Most older people can stay at home for

:33:16.:33:22.

longer with the right support. I have got to say goodbye, it has

:33:23.:33:27.

already got to that point in the programme. Thank you, Lawrence

:33:28.:33:29.

Tomlinson. ?NEWLINE Now, normal parliamentary business has been set

:33:30.:33:32.

aside this afternoon as MPs and peers gather to pay tribute to

:33:33.:33:36.

Nelson Mandela - Giles has two of those MPs with him in central lobby.

:33:37.:33:41.

Yes, if they finish early they might squeeze a bit of business to the

:33:42.:33:44.

house today, but most of the time will begin to these tributes to

:33:45.:33:51.

Nelson Mandela. I am joined by the Conservative -- a Conservative MP

:33:52.:34:00.

and a Labour MP. Many people are acknowledging the iconic status of

:34:01.:34:02.

Nelson Mandela and his achievements, but not everybody is

:34:03.:34:06.

that well-informed of the history of what happened. Not lost on you? No,

:34:07.:34:14.

I grew up in Ghana in West Africa, the first sub-Saharan Africa and

:34:15.:34:19.

country to get independence, so I was very conscious of the struggle

:34:20.:34:23.

for self-government across the continent of Africa. Looking back,

:34:24.:34:27.

the crowning achievement of Nelson Mandela is political, pulling his

:34:28.:34:32.

country from the brink of what was a deeply divided racial situation. It

:34:33.:34:38.

could have gone into civil war at that time, were it not for him. What

:34:39.:34:43.

is remarkable is how we exercised moral authority in order to achieve

:34:44.:34:49.

those ends. Our pathway was defeated through persuasion and

:34:50.:34:53.

reconciliation, rather than violence. With everybody standing up

:34:54.:34:59.

to speak, sometimes there is a competition to out to be chipper in

:35:00.:35:03.

eloquence, is it important that MPs steer clear of beatify the man? He

:35:04.:35:09.

was not a saint, he was never happy with people describing him as a

:35:10.:35:14.

saint. You would not describe him as a saint, but he is an iconic leader,

:35:15.:35:19.

you can't take that away from him and you would not want to. He has

:35:20.:35:23.

done more for politicians and democracy across the world, to

:35:24.:35:28.

inspire people, than anybody else during my whole life, certainly.

:35:29.:35:33.

When I was in school, we knew about Nelson Mandela. When I had my first

:35:34.:35:38.

Civics prize in the sixth form it was to do with the liberation

:35:39.:35:44.

struggles of Africa. I was active in anti-apartheid. You met him? Indeed,

:35:45.:35:51.

when he came here to meet various people including the Parliamentary

:35:52.:35:54.

Labour Party, he and Winnie Mandela came. I was fortunate enough to be

:35:55.:35:59.

very close to them. The men all crowded around Nelson Mandela, I

:36:00.:36:05.

went to speak to Winnie. Which is odd, because he preferred to be

:36:06.:36:09.

surrounded by women, he was very charming. That is part of his

:36:10.:36:13.

reputation, he said he was not a saint! But she was at that time a

:36:14.:36:18.

great inspiration to women. We should just explain, it is protocol

:36:19.:36:24.

with you? I am a member of the Government, but the protocol reasons

:36:25.:36:32.

I am not speaking. Why are you not? I have not put in to speak, I think

:36:33.:36:35.

there are more important voices than mine. I was one of the foot soldiers

:36:36.:36:40.

of the anti-apartheid movement, and although it matters hugely to me and

:36:41.:36:43.

I shall listen to others, I mean not be contributing. It is interesting

:36:44.:36:53.

in a world of 24-hour news to remind ourselves that in 1991 Nelson was

:36:54.:36:56.

released from prison, the world 's television cameras were on him and

:36:57.:37:03.

the BBC interrupted its coverage to show that. We got a record number of

:37:04.:37:06.

complaints because it disrupted antiques road show.

:37:07.:37:10.

Now, let's look at what's happening this week. As we discussed earlier,

:37:11.:37:14.

the Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith gives evidence to the

:37:15.:37:17.

Commons Work and Pensions Select Committee.

:37:18.:37:18.

Tomorrow, the Prime Minister will be among many leaders attending a

:37:19.:37:21.

memorial service for Nelson Mandela in Soweto ahead of next Sunday's

:37:22.:37:26.

funeral. On Wednesday, as usual we have PMQs - and the big question is

:37:27.:37:30.

will Nick Clegg and Harriet Harman be back as stand-ins?

:37:31.:37:33.

On Thursday, George Osborne gives evidence to the Treasury Select

:37:34.:37:38.

Committee on the Autumn Statement. Also on Thursday, Parliament's

:37:39.:37:40.

expenses watchdog, IPSA, is expected to announce an 11% increase to MPs'

:37:41.:37:47.

salaries from 2015. I'm joined now by Tamara Cohen from

:37:48.:37:51.

The Daily Mail and Rafael Behr from the New Statesman. Welcome to you

:37:52.:38:00.

both. Let's start with that news about IPSA proposing the 11%

:38:01.:38:07.

increase. What happens now? It is really difficult for all three party

:38:08.:38:11.

leaders, they all want to see the cost of politics going down not up.

:38:12.:38:15.

The reason that we have IPSA, the independent body looking at MPs'

:38:16.:38:21.

pay, is because they've betrayed the public ours trust in the expenses

:38:22.:38:30.

scandal. Soak for this whopping 11% increase to be recommended, there is

:38:31.:38:36.

nothing that can really be done. But this is just catch up, it is because

:38:37.:38:41.

they have resisted pay increases under the old system in the past

:38:42.:38:48.

that the figure is 11%? Yes, and I am one of the tiny, weird minority

:38:49.:38:52.

of people who feels a bit sorry for MPs on this. In the run-up to the

:38:53.:38:58.

expenses scandal, MPs were given to understand that they could

:38:59.:39:01.

discreetly fill their boots from expenses because was politically

:39:02.:39:04.

impossible for them to award themselves a pay rise. That was

:39:05.:39:09.

compensation. They were then busted doing much, so now it has become

:39:10.:39:13.

impossible for them to give themselves a pay rise because of the

:39:14.:39:18.

expenses scandal. Either way, they are stuck. They can't come out and

:39:19.:39:23.

say that, frankly, people are doing difficult and stressful jobs in the

:39:24.:39:26.

private sector getting paid more than us, because most people in the

:39:27.:39:32.

country get paid less. At some stage, this has to change. Someone

:39:33.:39:37.

has to be able to say, we value this job very highly, it is very

:39:38.:39:42.

difficult and we want high-calibre people. It is not clear how you do

:39:43.:39:49.

that so it does not look like politicians with their noses in the

:39:50.:39:55.

ground. In the trough, probably, but we get your sentiment. Looking at

:39:56.:40:01.

the universal credit system, it will not be quite on-time, nor on budget.

:40:02.:40:06.

Where does this leave Iain Duncan Smith? It is disappointing for the

:40:07.:40:11.

Conservatives, they wanted to go into the next election than saying

:40:12.:40:21.

they have delivered this most ambitious things since the 1940s.

:40:22.:40:26.

Iain Duncan Smith will be making the point to MPs this afternoon that the

:40:27.:40:31.

lessons of previous computer scandals such as the tax credits one

:40:32.:40:35.

a few years back is that it is better to slow down the pace and

:40:36.:40:39.

make sure you get it right. He is saying that I delaying the

:40:40.:40:44.

implementation until 2017 of the least, everyone will be on the

:40:45.:40:52.

scheme and it will be a success. But we have had somebody's saying that

:40:53.:40:55.

Iain Duncan Smith should consider his position? Labour will be keen to

:40:56.:41:01.

pin serious blame, they have been playing catch up on the whole

:41:02.:41:05.

welfare gender. It is tricky for Iain Duncan Smith, this was the one

:41:06.:41:14.

big thing he promised to do. Other conservatives such as George Osborne

:41:15.:41:18.

thought it might not work, the public want to hear that welfare

:41:19.:41:23.

spending is coming down and our job as conservatives is to swing the axe

:41:24.:41:27.

into the benefits budget, not get bogged down in the project. Some

:41:28.:41:32.

people say they are not sure that IDS has the mouse or capability to

:41:33.:41:42.

carry it out. -- has the nous or capability. A powerful Parliamentary

:41:43.:41:46.

committee says he has wasted the best part of ?420 million, so at

:41:47.:41:51.

what point does he take responsibility? Thank you very much.

:41:52.:41:58.

. I'm joined for the rest of the

:41:59.:42:01.

programme by three MPs: the Conservative, Mark Field, Labour's

:42:02.:42:04.

John Woodcock and the Lib Dem Tom Brake. The first question for them

:42:05.:42:11.

is - do they deserve a pay rise? Not just these three MPs - but all MPs.

:42:12.:42:14.

The Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority who decide on

:42:15.:42:17.

these things think so - an ELEVEN percent pay rise in fact. -- and 11%

:42:18.:42:23.

pay rise in fact, to be introduced in 2015. But leading politicians of

:42:24.:42:26.

all parties have queued up to condemn the pay award - including

:42:27.:42:29.

Danny Alexander on yesterday's Marr show.

:42:30.:42:32.

I think most people will find it utterly incomprehensible that at a

:42:33.:42:35.

time of pay restraint in the public sector, further squeezes on

:42:36.:42:42.

Government spending, that Ibsen should recommend that. I think it

:42:43.:42:46.

will be highly inappropriate for MPs to get such a big pay rise when

:42:47.:42:51.

public sector workers are seeing their prices capped at 1%. I have

:42:52.:42:56.

said in the past that I would not accept it. What can you do about it

:42:57.:43:02.

as a Government? IPSA is independent, we have made a

:43:03.:43:06.

submission to them that it would not be appropriate at a time of wider

:43:07.:43:10.

public service restraints to go forward.

:43:11.:43:17.

Tom Brake, is it a good thing? No, I think Danny is right. At a time when

:43:18.:43:22.

the public sector is under very strike -- very tight pay restraints,

:43:23.:43:28.

it would be the wrong time for MPs to get an increase. It is always the

:43:29.:43:32.

wrong time, even when times were good, which is why the 11 cents I

:43:33.:43:38.

look so high. Times are bad, which is why now is the bad time. A

:43:39.:43:45.

decision has not taken. This would happen in the next parliament and

:43:46.:43:51.

would be subject to a review. Would Ed Miliband go into 2015 saying they

:43:52.:43:57.

would change the law and there will not be an 11th % pay rise? Ed

:43:58.:44:03.

Miliband has been clear that this should not happen. There is never a

:44:04.:44:07.

right time to do this but there is most definitely a wrong one. We have

:44:08.:44:11.

to look around and understand just how much people are struggling. All

:44:12.:44:20.

of us as a group of people, as Members of Parliament, as a

:44:21.:44:23.

legislative body of government we have to take some responsibility for

:44:24.:44:27.

what has happened to the country. People in the country are

:44:28.:44:29.

struggling, businesses are struggling, this is not the time to

:44:30.:44:36.

do something like this. Can you do anything about it or is it just

:44:37.:44:41.

empty rhetoric? Most of your constituent would expect you to say

:44:42.:44:45.

it is not right, but can you stop it? I think it is right that pay

:44:46.:44:52.

remuneration was taken out of the hands of MPs, but I think it is

:44:53.:44:56.

really important that it is a listen to what the country is saying and

:44:57.:45:02.

act on this. -- really important that IPSA listen. The truth is that

:45:03.:45:07.

IPSA have listened and in the last few months have come back with a

:45:08.:45:11.

cost neutral package. They have said they would strip away some more of

:45:12.:45:15.

the pension rights that MPs have, get rid of some of the allowances,

:45:16.:45:20.

the idea being to make it more transparent and tried to get what we

:45:21.:45:24.

should have had before the scandal in 2009, a little bit more on the

:45:25.:45:28.

headline salary and to take away some of these benefits. No doubt I

:45:29.:45:32.

would accept it. We have an independent body. If you want to

:45:33.:45:41.

undermine IPSA, the whole idea is to draw a line under the scandals of

:45:42.:45:45.

the past. There are many MPs with very large capital games, there

:45:46.:45:49.

would have to be a police investigation into what happened

:45:50.:45:52.

with expenses, which was conveniently done away with when we

:45:53.:45:56.

went down this route. Danny Alexander 's earlier comment, you in

:45:57.:46:00.

government have an opportunity to keep the cost of politics down, you

:46:01.:46:06.

failing to do so. You have added 170 people to the House of Lords and the

:46:07.:46:11.

last election, page ?300 per day expenses, no questions. We have the

:46:12.:46:16.

largest cohort of special advisers, 92, with a 16% rise and that cost

:46:17.:46:21.

over last year. I think it behoves you to get your own house in order

:46:22.:46:25.

with that element of the cost of politics before putting pressure on

:46:26.:46:33.

an independent body. Thank you for pointing that out, I don't think it

:46:34.:46:38.

is the Liberal Democrats who can be accused of this. It is not just you.

:46:39.:46:47.

We wanted a reform of the House of Lords and if that had gone ahead,

:46:48.:46:50.

the cost of politics would have gone down. It is right, the number of

:46:51.:46:56.

peers has gone up, exponentially, I take your point that that is not

:46:57.:47:00.

what you wanted. Are there other areas where you could cap the cost

:47:01.:47:04.

of politics, or reduce it in some ways? With special advisers, there

:47:05.:47:08.

was a pledge to bring down the number of special advisers but it

:47:09.:47:12.

has gone through the roof, as always happens when a new party gets into

:47:13.:47:17.

government. We can still press on the issue of House of Lords reform.

:47:18.:47:21.

The particular proposal in relation to what IPSA is bringing forward is

:47:22.:47:28.

cost neutral. The increase in MPs' salaries would be offset against the

:47:29.:47:34.

reduction in expenses. If they listen to the public in four or five

:47:35.:47:37.

months, this idea that they are going ahead in some sort of ivory

:47:38.:47:41.

tower is completely wrong. You have to accept that 11%, when we have had

:47:42.:47:46.

public sector pay freezes over the last few years, wages have been

:47:47.:47:49.

continually squeezed and most people will say, it is not just a question

:47:50.:47:54.

that you don't deserve it, but just as a comparative with other

:47:55.:47:59.

salaries. It is part and parcel of stripping away elements... The truth

:48:00.:48:04.

is that IPSA came up with this proposal and said we want to

:48:05.:48:07.

benchmark this against other professions, and we will go to the

:48:08.:48:13.

lowest possible figure. Isn't it the same as a headmistress of a London

:48:14.:48:16.

school in the south-east, a police chief? There are lots professions

:48:17.:48:23.

for whom you could make a case ought to be paid differently, but that is

:48:24.:48:27.

never treated in isolation. If you look at public sector workers, who

:48:28.:48:32.

are going through pension changes, they don't see the government coming

:48:33.:48:36.

along and saying, you have got to take care of your pension so here is

:48:37.:48:42.

a whopping salary increase. What you have not answered is IPSA itself,

:48:43.:48:46.

you brought in this new system. The whole point is it was supposed to be

:48:47.:48:49.

independent and now you are bringing down your own system. I am not

:48:50.:48:57.

bringing it down. IPSA have not yet taken a decision, it will be posted

:48:58.:49:01.

thousands 15, it is possible they may come forward with something

:49:02.:49:06.

which is difficult -- it will be post 2015 and it is possible they

:49:07.:49:09.

may come forward with something different. We can't return the

:49:10.:49:18.

money, so we would be left in a position, anyone serving in the 2015

:49:19.:49:22.

Parliament, about what we would do with the increase that they had

:49:23.:49:26.

given us. How much would you lie to be paid? -- like to be paid? I want

:49:27.:49:34.

to see what happens in that review. I think IPSA did a good job of

:49:35.:49:42.

looking at comparators but we are in a extremely difficult financial

:49:43.:49:45.

position as a country. The public sector is not only facing pay

:49:46.:49:49.

increases, but the sorts of things that MPs might be losing in terms of

:49:50.:49:54.

pension rights and expenses are things that people in other areas of

:49:55.:49:57.

work are also losing, so we can't sell it to them on that basis. It

:49:58.:50:05.

goes back to your initial point, there is never going to be a good

:50:06.:50:10.

time to do this. None of it will come into play in this Parliament so

:50:11.:50:17.

the voters will have a say. The benchmarking suggested, and Tom

:50:18.:50:21.

knows this, that MPs should be paid between 74 and 86,000. They came out

:50:22.:50:25.

with the lowest possible figure on the basis that they thought there

:50:26.:50:28.

would be a public backlash. I think they have tried to make this as cost

:50:29.:50:32.

neutral as possible so therefore, let's run with it.

:50:33.:50:36.

Talking about mental health has always been difficult for the last

:50:37.:50:40.

week, one of our guests, John Woodcock, revealed he suffered from

:50:41.:50:44.

depression. That followed last year's debate on mental health in

:50:45.:50:48.

the House of Commons in which a number of MPs revealed their own

:50:49.:50:51.

experience on mental illness. In 1996, I suffered from quite a deep

:50:52.:50:59.

depression. It was related to work issues and other things going on in

:51:00.:51:02.

my life at the moment. That is the first time I have spoken... Some

:51:03.:51:07.

people in my family do not know what I am going to say. Because like a

:51:08.:51:12.

lot of men, you try to deal with it yourself. You don't talk to people.

:51:13.:51:18.

I just hope you realise what I am saying is very difficult for me now.

:51:19.:51:22.

I did not make the decision until I put my notes down, to do it. It is

:51:23.:51:28.

hard, because you don't realise first of all, it creeps up on you

:51:29.:51:33.

very slowly. We are also in politics designed to think that somehow, if

:51:34.:51:40.

you admit fault or fail to, -- failure, you're going to be looked

:51:41.:51:44.

upon in a disparaging way in terms of the electorate but also your

:51:45.:51:50.

peers. I am delighted to say that I have been a practising fruitcake for

:51:51.:51:58.

31 years. It was 13 years ago, at St John's woodchip station, and I

:51:59.:52:05.

remember it vividly, that I was visited by obsessive can disorder --

:52:06.:52:10.

St John's would tube station. It has played a fairly significant part in

:52:11.:52:16.

my life. On occasions it is manageable on on occasions it comes

:52:17.:52:20.

quite difficult, it takes you to some dark places. MPs speaking

:52:21.:52:29.

bravely and openly. Tell us about depression, why you decided to speak

:52:30.:52:35.

out about it publicly. I have been through a stranger, I fell off a

:52:36.:52:39.

ladder, I banged my head, I had a period where I was not able to do

:52:40.:52:43.

much at all. It has been a slow recovery and I still don't have the

:52:44.:52:48.

energy to do what I am -- I want. When I am exhausted I get really

:52:49.:52:52.

low. It took me a while to recognise it. It was actually my wife who

:52:53.:52:57.

said, I think you are depressed. My first reaction was, we are not going

:52:58.:53:03.

there. But then I thought, I can do something about this. It was

:53:04.:53:11.

actually Kevin Jones, Charles and Alistair Campbell, who have spoken

:53:12.:53:15.

out about this brilliantly, who made me think, that as someone in front

:53:16.:53:19.

line politics, I could do this privately. And because of the

:53:20.:53:25.

opportunity they gave me to be able to do something about this by

:53:26.:53:29.

speaking out themselves, I thought, shouldn't I make it public. That is

:53:30.:53:33.

what I decided to do last week. Has it helped? I am glad that I spoke

:53:34.:53:40.

about it. The reaction has been extraordinary. Really amazing. I

:53:41.:53:46.

have had so much goodwill, it has been lovely. But actually, I have

:53:47.:53:52.

had many constituents and others talking to me and saying, they have

:53:53.:53:55.

suffered with problems over the years. Some of them have not been

:53:56.:54:01.

able to get help. Some people saying, now I might get help, which

:54:02.:54:05.

is amazing. One woman spoke to me at the weekend and she said, she had

:54:06.:54:11.

had a bout of very severe mental health problems. She ended up

:54:12.:54:17.

hospitalised. Her mother had said, you need to keep this quiet, don't

:54:18.:54:25.

tell your brother. I think if people like Alistair and Kevin can speak

:54:26.:54:29.

out, it can hopefully change people's perceptions and people can

:54:30.:54:33.

think of it like a physical illness, which is ultimately what we need to

:54:34.:54:39.

get to. There is a stigma, people are embarrassed about it. My father

:54:40.:54:43.

also suffered from mental illness, nobody did want to talk about it or

:54:44.:54:47.

face up to it. Do you think standing up in the House of Commons like

:54:48.:54:50.

that, it is quite a brave thing to do? Will people think less of these

:54:51.:54:56.

people? Dare I say, the more people who do it, the less the stigma will

:54:57.:55:00.

attach. I think it has always been the case that mental health has been

:55:01.:55:10.

this type of area. I want to give more money to it. Even in my own

:55:11.:55:19.

case, I have not suffered from mental health problems but there

:55:20.:55:22.

have been episodes in life, I can think of two, the first was the

:55:23.:55:26.

death of my father and the other in my private life, when I probably

:55:27.:55:31.

was, for a matter of months, feeling so low, thought I could not get out

:55:32.:55:35.

of bed in the morning, this sort of thing. One of the things come in

:55:36.:55:39.

Parliament and in many other workplaces, I hope there is more

:55:40.:55:42.

support and encouragement for people who go through those phases. It is

:55:43.:55:46.

different from a long-term, permanent mental health issue but a

:55:47.:55:49.

lot of us have these short episodes as well. Do you think it is

:55:50.:55:54.

difficult in politics to admit that actually, you do have these low

:55:55.:56:00.

periods, even if it is not a constant illness? It is hard for

:56:01.:56:06.

politicians to admit. It is hard for politicians, partly because the job

:56:07.:56:09.

is so intense and there are stressful occasions. The workload is

:56:10.:56:14.

there a demanding but there are lots of other professions and careers

:56:15.:56:18.

where people are in the same place. I think the more people who talk

:56:19.:56:21.

about it, and recognise that this is not exceptional, this is not

:56:22.:56:25.

something many people will be experiencing in their lives, it is

:56:26.:56:29.

something we need to be aware of and something that employers in

:56:30.:56:32.

particular have a responsible to, to ensure that they can adapt to

:56:33.:56:37.

situations where either they are perhaps recruiting somebody as a

:56:38.:56:42.

mental health problem, or someone during the course of their working

:56:43.:56:45.

life suffers from a problem where the employer has to make

:56:46.:56:52.

adjustments. Thank you. Time to find out the answer to our daily quiz.

:56:53.:56:58.

The question was, what did Ed Balls play at his first piano recital

:56:59.:57:00.

yesterday? Was it Chopsticks, Der Dichter Spricht by Schumann, Angels

:57:01.:57:04.

by Robbie Williams or The Hills Are Alive from the Sound of Music? So

:57:05.:57:12.

what's the correct answer? I was going to say, it should be Angels if

:57:13.:57:17.

he was going to try and keep in with his leader. I suspect it might be

:57:18.:57:26.

the sound of music. Schumann. Well done, it was not the sound of the

:57:27.:57:33.

zip. -- not the sound of music. The Sound of Music is the one that makes

:57:34.:57:37.

him cry. We have a clip of him playing.

:57:38.:57:46.

I think that could be a, B, C or D! You're absolutely right. I think he

:57:47.:57:58.

needed to practice that as much as his Autumn Statement speech. You

:57:59.:58:03.

need to defend Ed Balls here. Not about the piano performance. On the

:58:04.:58:10.

day of the Autumn Statement... All through the Autumn Statement,

:58:11.:58:13.

identikit great deal was actually added to the sum of human knowledge.

:58:14.:58:18.

-- I don't think a great deal. In terms of a Parliamentary show from

:58:19.:58:24.

members of Parliament as a whole, we did not do ourselves proud and we

:58:25.:58:29.

need to do better. Were all of the Tory MPs which to go for Ed Balls?

:58:30.:58:38.

-- whipped. I wasn't there. I think it is great that Ed Balls is taking

:58:39.:58:43.

up the piano at his age. I have a five and a half -year-old son and a

:58:44.:58:46.

two-year-old daughter who are both more proficient than I am. You have

:58:47.:58:52.

got to start learning! Thank you for being our guests. The one o'clock

:58:53.:58:55.

News is on BBC One. Have a great afternoon.

:58:56.:58:58.

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