23/01/2014 Daily Politics


23/01/2014

Andrew Neil and Jo Coburn present the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Afternoon folks, welcome to the Daily Politics. He doesn't like the

:00:37.:00:41.

EU, he's against high immigration, and he's opposed to high taxes. But

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what does Nigel Farage like? We'll be putting UKIP's policies under the

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spotlight. As world leaders discuss the crisis in Syria, the Prime

:00:55.:01:00.

Minister 's says he's open-minded about accepting refugees from Syria

:01:01.:01:03.

is a compelling case is made. Could Labour and the Lib Dems team up to

:01:04.:01:07.

force a change of policy? Should we just accept that women who choose to

:01:08.:01:11.

have children are worth less to companies? One high-flying woman

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disagrees and she'll be here to tell us why. And from pints to Chardonnay

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- shocking news that one of Westminster's best loved watering

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holes is going all posh. All that in the next hour. And with

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us for the whole programme today is the leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage.

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Welcome to the Daily Politics. Now first this morning let's talk about

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defence because a little earlier, the Defence Secretary, Phillip

:01:38.:01:40.

Hammond outlined the latest round of cuts to the armed forces. Around

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1,400 soldiers are to lose their jobs. Here's Mr Hammond, in action

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in the Commons. For the men and women of our Armed Forces, I know

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that this has been a painful process. But completion of this

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final tranche will mark a turning point. With the bulk of our troops

:02:02.:02:06.

back from Afghanistan by the end of this year, and coming back from

:02:07.:02:10.

Germany over the next four years, as we build future Force 2020, they

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will be able to enjoy the peace of mind that comes from belonging to

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armed forces that are put a period of change and restructuring behind

:02:22.:02:25.

them and focused on building their skills and capabilities for the

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future. Nigel Farage, this latest and final round of cuts will end a

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period of uncertainty for troops, do you agree? No! Weather would have

:02:37.:02:44.

thought that a Conservative lead on government would slash army numbers,

:02:45.:02:49.

people are wondering how this is going to work. His plan is, you cut

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the number of regulars and you rebrand the Territorial Army and

:02:55.:02:59.

build that up to 30,000 troops, it isn't going to work. I have got

:03:00.:03:04.

family involvement in this, my father is president of the TA

:03:05.:03:07.

regiment in London. He says the problem is that employers were OK

:03:08.:03:12.

about a fortnight 's camp every year but suddenly, the TA has meant for

:03:13.:03:17.

months here, five months there, and they are trying to get a full-time

:03:18.:03:20.

army on the cheap through the reservists. People are going to

:03:21.:03:25.

struggle, employers are not going to want their people to be in the Army

:03:26.:03:28.

reserve and this isn't going to work. We have spoken to ministers,

:03:29.:03:34.

and to some MPs who serve in the Armed Forces as reservists, they say

:03:35.:03:38.

it can be squared. They say it is a sign of a modern army, that looking

:03:39.:03:43.

ahead, employers will be convinced to come on board and support this.

:03:44.:03:48.

Let's sit here in six months, I feel confident in saying that the Army

:03:49.:03:51.

reserve will not be able to recruit the numbers it needs to make up for

:03:52.:03:58.

the huge reduction in numbers. Let's look at the numbers, how big the

:03:59.:04:02.

Army be under UKIP? We have been running at about 100 to 120,000 for

:04:03.:04:10.

some time. We are now slashing it down to 82,500. People say this is

:04:11.:04:16.

the final cut, I am not sure. You say that people will look again at

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cuts? I think defence cuts have been the easy way for the government to

:04:24.:04:27.

cut. We are now spending less than 2% of our entire budget on defence,

:04:28.:04:34.

it is very low indeed. But UKIP themselves have said that you

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wouldn't want to be involved in the sort of conflict we have seen in the

:04:37.:04:40.

past, so what is the need? Because UKIP doesn't want to get involved in

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endless foreign wars doesn't mean that we want to slash our defences

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to the level... Let's just say, and the Falklands is much more heavily

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manned and it was 30 years ago, let's just say the Argentinians did

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establish a toehold on the Falklands and we had to try, militarily, to

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get them back, we couldn't do it. So the point about having defences is

:05:07.:05:10.

that you are there for the unforeseen event. It's like paying

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the insurance on the house in case there is a fire. Having said he

:05:16.:05:20.

wouldn't go into those sorts of adventures, if you can call them,

:05:21.:05:23.

would you not have gone into Afghanistan? I fail to see, with all

:05:24.:05:28.

these was, what our object to his work. In the case of Afghanistan,

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all you have to do was reading five minutes of history to know it would

:05:35.:05:39.

be unwinnable. So you wouldn't have gone into Iraq? It was a vengeance

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will, we will end up with a three state solution, it will take about

:05:47.:05:49.

15 or 20 years of a horrible civil war. I wouldn't have wanted Libya

:05:50.:05:53.

and I don't think any thing we have done in the Middle East has made it

:05:54.:05:57.

more stable or better. So what you need such a big Armed Forces, for

:05:58.:06:02.

something that may never happen and actually is unlikely to? In some

:06:03.:06:08.

ways. Since the Warsaw Pact disappeared, the world is even more

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uncertain than it was. At least we knew what the potential enemy was.

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There are some wars that you find yourself unavoidably getting dragged

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into. Here we are, 100 years since the start of the First World War,

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nobody thought that was imaginable. We just don't know. The former US

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Defence Secretary said the Armed Forces cuts will diminish the UK's

:06:35.:06:40.

military standing. Does that matter? I think it does. The point about

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being a full partner to the US is when they say jump, we don't always

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ask how high, after all Harold Wilson, when Lyndon Johnson came to

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Downing Street said no, we're not going to Vietnam. The point is, we

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can choose to the two things when they are right.

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Now it's time for our daily quiz. The question for today is which of

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these has the largest number of followers on twitter? A) Nigel

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Farage b) The official UKIP twitter feed c) UKIP weather or d) Godfrey

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Bloom. Now, this show is obviously watched

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by millions so the answer could well change by the end of the show. In

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which case, Nigel, we'll have to take the answer as it was at the

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time of writing which was about half past nine this morning! Compliance

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at its best! As you're watching this programme I

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reckon it's fairly safe to say you're an intelligent sort of person

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with a keen grasp of the political world. Unless you are a student that

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has just woken up! You don't need me to tell you that Nigel Farage's UKIP

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want out of the EU, or for that matter, that they're not

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particularly big fans of immigration. But what else do they

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stand for? Jo's been going through their policies with a fine tooth

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comb. Nigel Farage is the political

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outsider who wants to change the system from within, and this

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revolutionary has plenty of other battles to fight and rights to

:08:17.:08:20.

right. The party is promising to reveal very soon how it intends to

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reduce ?90 billion from our annual expenditure, without reducing major

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public services. They aim to keep tax as low as possible, although

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there's not much detail as to how they're going to do it. Their

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pensions policy is as yet unclear although at the last election they

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promised a flat rate, non means testable, non contributory, non

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taxable citizens pension of ?130 a week. On crime, they promise not to

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reduce spending on front line policing and they say they'll have a

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tougher sentencing policy, life will mean life. On health, they will

:08:55.:09:04.

restore free eye and dental checks and a UKIP government would make

:09:05.:09:07.

sure doctors' surgeries stay open in the evenings. Climate change is so

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last century, according to their energy spokesman Roger Helmer -

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green taxes will be scrapped and nuclear power promoted. More money

:09:14.:09:19.

will go into the defence budget although they say a UKIP government

:09:20.:09:22.

would be less likely to get involved in foreign conflicts. Finally UKIP

:09:23.:09:26.

support more grammar schools and they would bring back the student

:09:27.:09:31.

grant. Of course it's over a year before until the next general

:09:32.:09:35.

election and UKIP say a lot of their policies are still under review, so

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just how revolutionary will Nigel Farage's UKIP be?

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With us now is the Conservative MP, Priti Patel. So, comrades... I have

:09:44.:09:55.

never thought of myself like that! An awful lot of policies, will any

:09:56.:10:01.

of them make the manifesto? Wait and see. Our job is to fight the

:10:02.:10:06.

European elections on May 22 on just the constitutional question but the

:10:07.:10:10.

consequences of being an EU member, whether it is on immigration or the

:10:11.:10:14.

effect on the City of London, we will focus on those things between

:10:15.:10:18.

now and then. But UKIP has to do is to show people that it has a

:10:19.:10:24.

domestic policy agenda, that it adds up. We have to show where cuts can

:10:25.:10:30.

be made, considerable cuts can be made, we are also going to have to

:10:31.:10:34.

have a strategy for growth, as that is one of the things this

:10:35.:10:38.

government... There is some growth in the economy but what we will do

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is talk particularly about the small businesses and what can be done to

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get some growth there. At the last election he wanted to cut 90 billion

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of taxes and spend an extra 30 billion. There is going to be too

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much scrutiny on you at this election, I suggest, are you to get

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away with an obvious nonsense like that. That is not an obvious

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nonsense! Not if you can show where the cuts can come. Anybody working

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for a quango or earning six-figure money in government is not going to

:11:14.:11:21.

be voting UKIP. We believe that the whole public sector part of our

:11:22.:11:23.

economy has ballooned out of control. But 90 billion cuts and 30

:11:24.:11:30.

billion extra means you have to find 120 Ilion to do that. It's not

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realistic, is it? It's very ambitious! I didn't put that

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manifesto together, I was just a candidate, but I can assure you of

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one thing, the 2015 manifesto will be similar in flavour. Do you still

:11:47.:11:52.

plan to have a citizens pension? This idea has been taken up to large

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extent by Iain Duncan Smith. But we have not decided what we're going to

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do. You wanted to scrap employers's national insurance, that costs about

:12:06.:12:10.

60 billion. For start-up company is, the idea of a holiday where you

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don't have to pay that will be a short-term boost. I remember what

:12:16.:12:20.

that manifesto said, it was a long-term ambition... It said you

:12:21.:12:27.

would phase it out for employers, not the people but employers over

:12:28.:12:31.

five years, recouping revenue through corporation tax, sales tax

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revenue and lower spending. I would describe that as an overly ambitious

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view of what can be done in five years! You once wanted a flat rate

:12:41.:12:46.

tax system, now you want a two tier system. We want flatter, simple,

:12:47.:12:54.

lower taxes. Flat rate is another. What you want? Our tax code is

:12:55.:13:02.

12,000 pages long, we wanted radically reduced, it will still be

:13:03.:13:07.

at downside simpler than the current system. We want no tax on them and

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wait, that would incentivise people to get off benefit and back to work.

:13:16.:13:22.

-- on the minimum wage. Will all be quango is go? I think a lot of them

:13:23.:13:29.

will. Wouldn't a lot of the jobs just have to be redeployed into the

:13:30.:13:34.

departments? If you look at the Environment Agency, it is a big

:13:35.:13:38.

agency, big budget, you can't just scrap it and say that's it. A lot of

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these things will go back into the Department of the Environment or

:13:44.:13:47.

whatever it's called now. We have these parallel structures, we have

:13:48.:13:52.

Whitehall departments, quangos, the ultimate radically shrinking our

:13:53.:13:59.

bureaucracy is how powerful. Could you give as an example of a concrete

:14:00.:14:02.

policy that will be in your manifesto? We will fight very hard

:14:03.:14:07.

to bring back select the schools specific social mobility has fallen

:14:08.:14:13.

in this country, the 7% to go to the fee-paying schools are dominating

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everything, current affairs, sport, everything. So by selective schools,

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you mean he would bring back, schools? What we call them matters

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less than the principle of it. If you look at those bits we can define

:14:32.:14:38.

about you Capcom he wants to get out of the EU, wants to be tough on

:14:39.:14:41.

immigration, bring back grammar schools, spend more on defence, it

:14:42.:14:46.

sells like what a lot of them is of the Tory party believed? The issue

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is, but these are attitudes. When you are a party in Westminster and

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in government, you have to make some very tough long-term choices which

:15:01.:15:03.

is what we are doing in government right now. On the economy, schools

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in particular. We agree we have had a terrible decade of failure in our

:15:09.:15:11.

education system. So we are reforming education through free

:15:12.:15:21.

schools, academies. Would you like to bring back grammar schools? I

:15:22.:15:28.

support academies and I support a lot of schools in my constituency.

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Would you like to bring back grammar schools? There was a plan to have an

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extension and Michael Gove was beaten on that. I have got long held

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views. I have been campaigning for a referendum a lot than Nigel Farage.

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But, that said, you have to be a party in government, you have to be

:16:00.:16:04.

a party in Westminster that can take legislation through Parliament. With

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David Cameron and Philip Hammond announcing 1400 in cuts in defence,

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you cannot imagine better people to have on your side who have been

:16:17.:16:21.

loyal to this country for a decade after decade. You cannot be happy

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with that. There are hard realities we have had to face around defence

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spending. I remember in 2010 when we came to power we inherited a ?38

:16:33.:16:38.

billion black hole in the defence budget alone. You have to make

:16:39.:16:43.

difficult decisions. Coming up with political slogans that might sound

:16:44.:16:50.

nice, are long way away from having a long-term plan that can deliver

:16:51.:16:55.

change. But you cannot get out of bed in the morning and say, I am

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proud to be a party that is slashing defence spending and adding 6

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billion to international aid? It is the responsibility of generations

:17:08.:17:11.

such as my generation to come up with the right long-term solution

:17:12.:17:15.

for this country and you can only do that in government. To govern is to

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choose. Are you proud to be supporting a government that is

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slashing defence spending and increasing international aid? I am

:17:27.:17:32.

part of a government that is facing up to the hard realities. But are

:17:33.:17:38.

you proud of that? We have to recognise the tough climate that we

:17:39.:17:45.

are in. It is quite clear from the way these questions have not been

:17:46.:17:49.

answered that she is quite close to you on a number of issues, so why

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are you going to put a candidate against heard that will make it more

:17:55.:17:58.

difficult for Priti Patel to hold onto her seat? If she says she would

:17:59.:18:05.

openly defy a three line whip and vote against her own government to

:18:06.:18:08.

get Britain out of the EU, we might be talking. We are not going to have

:18:09.:18:14.

a motion of confidence of that nature. I sent that for the first

:18:15.:18:25.

time in 20 years it is in the front line of politics. I suspect Labour

:18:26.:18:28.

will be forced into offering a referendum as well. There would not

:18:29.:18:34.

be any debate about a referendum or any promise by Mr Cameron, although

:18:35.:18:39.

he promised one once before, unless you can put the pressure on and you

:18:40.:18:44.

get the votes in local elections and by-elections that we have got.

:18:45.:18:50.

Perhaps the threat we pose not just to conservatives, but to Labour as

:18:51.:18:55.

well is changing the debate. There has been harsh reality while we have

:18:56.:19:00.

been in government and when David Cameron became prime minister that

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Europe is simply not working. The institutions are all over the

:19:05.:19:07.

place, they are not accountable and they are imposing their will on the

:19:08.:19:12.

UK left, right and centre and there are issues such as their own budget

:19:13.:19:18.

as well. The Prime Minister has exercised a veto. We know there are

:19:19.:19:24.

problems, but you need a party in Westminster and you need the support

:19:25.:19:28.

and lies across the EU effect change. What Cameron is trying to

:19:29.:19:36.

sell us is fundamental change to Britain's treaty relationship with

:19:37.:19:40.

the European Union. For somebody who spent 15 years in Brussels, that is

:19:41.:19:48.

not even on offer. One of the region -- reason David Cameron's page has

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not unite the party is one year on nobody knows what he intends to

:19:53.:19:59.

negotiate. I do not support that. There is no doubt, and George

:20:00.:20:06.

Osborne highlighted this last week in his own speech, that we know

:20:07.:20:11.

there are big challenges. There are physical and financial challenges.

:20:12.:20:15.

It is about the institutions of the European Union and it is about

:20:16.:20:21.

fundamental issues like justice, human rights and immigration. The

:20:22.:20:25.

list is endless. Status quo is not an option. I am still not sure what

:20:26.:20:32.

separates you. UKIP is against replacing Trident. Yes, that is a

:20:33.:20:37.

debate we have been kicking around for some time. So you are a

:20:38.:20:43.

non-nuclear defence strategy for Britain. I am not sure where you got

:20:44.:20:52.

that from. From your website. That is not the case. It was the case.

:20:53.:21:03.

Will you get it off your website? When it comes to websites I am not

:21:04.:21:10.

an expert. Would you deploy regular armed forces on the streets? If

:21:11.:21:19.

necessary, yes. Your website says they could man police stations while

:21:20.:21:22.

officers are dealing with this order. Those flash riots we had a

:21:23.:21:30.

couple of years ago came from nowhere and everybody was astounded

:21:31.:21:33.

by the size of them and the lack of preparedness. You would have

:21:34.:21:40.

deployed the Army? They would have been on immediate stand-by. That

:21:41.:21:47.

situation was very serious. You want a compulsory dress code for taxi

:21:48.:21:57.

drivers? Do we? That is not on the website, that is on one of your

:21:58.:22:03.

documents. Under the last leadership in 2010 we produced a manifesto that

:22:04.:22:09.

was 486 pages long, so you can quote me bits of it, but I might not know

:22:10.:22:18.

all of it. Is it still policy to require our trains to be painted in

:22:19.:22:24.

traditional colours? I have no idea what you are talking about. That was

:22:25.:22:30.

a policy paper published in 2010. Is there a danger that if UKIP

:22:31.:22:35.

continues to be strong in the polls, that when you go into the 20 15th

:22:36.:22:39.

election and they cost you the election and if you take the poll

:22:40.:22:45.

from last Sunday, the Conservatives are on 30, Labour on 35, to be five

:22:46.:22:52.

points ahead at this point is not great for Labour. As a government

:22:53.:22:55.

you are in striking distance, but UKIP is on 19%. Opinion polls say

:22:56.:23:02.

what they are going to say right now, but the reality for this

:23:03.:23:06.

country and the electorate is they have to go into the 20 15th election

:23:07.:23:11.

and think about the long-term, economic prosperity of this country.

:23:12.:23:15.

It is not going to be about voting for a party that is putting out

:23:16.:23:25.

slogans. That is maybe why Labour is only on 35. If Labour is on 35, you

:23:26.:23:34.

lose if UKIP get 19. At least people know what we stand for. The

:23:35.:23:39.

Conservative voters have no idea what David Cameron stands for. Is he

:23:40.:23:47.

for or against wind farms? The reality is for us it is all about

:23:48.:23:51.

the economic future and prosperity of this country. It is about having

:23:52.:23:56.

our finances in order and we inherited the worst fiscal legacy of

:23:57.:24:00.

any government in 2010 and we are building a future programme for this

:24:01.:24:04.

country and tackling many issues about Europe and immigration that we

:24:05.:24:11.

have talked about. What kind of a uniform would taxi drivers are have?

:24:12.:24:21.

Do not ask me. To ask a party leader about policies like that is silly!

:24:22.:24:30.

Tenacity, sportsmanship, endurance, not necessarily qualities you would

:24:31.:24:33.

associate with a politician, but sports men and women make the MPs?

:24:34.:24:40.

Select Christopher Chataway, Olympic athletes and Conservative politician

:24:41.:24:45.

managed to excel in both disciplines. But was he an

:24:46.:24:52.

exception? A lot of sports people are into

:24:53.:24:56.

politics and a lot of politicians play sport, but does being a

:24:57.:25:03.

sportsman, a well-known sportsman, make you any good at politics? It is

:25:04.:25:10.

a recipe for thinking you might be able to do it. As a sportsman you

:25:11.:25:15.

learn about self-confidence, you train hard and you can get on and a

:25:16.:25:20.

lot of people think it will transport itself to politics. I am

:25:21.:25:26.

not sure whether it does. There are famous sports people who have gone

:25:27.:25:31.

into politics. Sebastien Coe, Tony Grey Thompson and so Ming Campbell

:25:32.:25:40.

ran in the Olympics in 1964. Sport will give you a sense of what is

:25:41.:25:45.

necessary if you want to succeed. It is application. If it is doing an

:25:46.:25:54.

extra day's training, if it is politics, it is reading more

:25:55.:26:00.

background and information, treating it professionally. Sam Ming Campbell

:26:01.:26:08.

has gone from sporting sprinter to political marathon man, rising to be

:26:09.:26:14.

party leader. Baroness Danny Grey Thompson was always passionate about

:26:15.:26:18.

politics and of course there is Sebastien Coe, sporting icon on the

:26:19.:26:22.

track and then organising the Olympics, but was his political

:26:23.:26:28.

career so glittering? He thought you could bring in the values of hard

:26:29.:26:32.

work and training and being scientific about things and he tried

:26:33.:26:35.

to do that with William Hague and most of us do not think that was a

:26:36.:26:41.

roaring success. He had William Hague at the Notting hill carnival

:26:42.:26:48.

in a baseball cap. Whether that helped William Hague being a good

:26:49.:26:52.

leader of the Tory party no one quite knows. We will not know until

:26:53.:26:59.

the European elections whether Olympic rowing success means James

:27:00.:27:01.

Cracknell will cross the line and become a Tory MEP. Winning replies

:27:02.:27:12.

dating that dedication and application and nowadays modern

:27:13.:27:23.

politics is like that. One advantage of being a sports personality is

:27:24.:27:31.

that you are well known. People will not slam the door in his face, but

:27:32.:27:36.

he will still have to have something to say to them and if you appear to

:27:37.:27:41.

be a distant figure who hobnobs with the world of sport, you might not

:27:42.:27:47.

look like the kind of guy who knows how to help individual people with

:27:48.:27:51.

their lives. But for a lot of people it is a head start. I never had the

:27:52.:28:01.

intention of taking up politics, and I am not sure about squash a toll.

:28:02.:28:07.

James Cracknell, double gold medallist, and Conservative

:28:08.:28:11.

candidate at next made's European elections joins us now. What can a

:28:12.:28:18.

top sports star bring to politics? There is a crossover in what you

:28:19.:28:22.

need is a sportsman and as a politician, especially in Olympic

:28:23.:28:25.

sports where there is a long-term plan and you have to deliver on that

:28:26.:28:31.

plan on one day. It is about setting a goal at the outset that might seem

:28:32.:28:36.

unachievable and working towards it and forming a team to deliver on

:28:37.:28:42.

that goal under pressure. In some ways they are the skills required in

:28:43.:28:46.

politics and there is the stamina required to undergo the long haul

:28:47.:28:51.

and not be afraid to ask yourself tough questions. The stamina Nigel

:28:52.:28:58.

will sympathise with. Why be an MEP and not an MP? I wanted a candidacy

:28:59.:29:07.

for Westminster and I thought long and hard about it, and I am sure

:29:08.:29:13.

Nigel will agree the next five years the crucial part of the future of

:29:14.:29:17.

this country lies in Europe and it is trying to fight a situation where

:29:18.:29:21.

the people in Britain are happy with our relationship in Europe and

:29:22.:29:26.

offering a referendum of the back of it. Do you think we should remain in

:29:27.:29:34.

the European Union? We cannot say that until we have been through the

:29:35.:29:37.

process of renegotiation and to get a meaningful renegotiation, the

:29:38.:29:44.

other powers have to believe we are serious about leaving. If we are not

:29:45.:29:50.

serious, we are not going to get anything out of the renegotiation. I

:29:51.:29:56.

agree if you want to get anything out of Europe, you have to walk into

:29:57.:30:03.

the room with a great big stick. But David Cameron would report --

:30:04.:30:08.

support a stake in vote in the referendum. We need to get Europe to

:30:09.:30:22.

work for the people of Britain but as concept in itself, it is too slow

:30:23.:30:27.

and dynamic, that needs to be changed. We also need the confidence

:30:28.:30:33.

to back ourselves and think we can effect change for the benefit of

:30:34.:30:36.

people in this country and on the continent as well. Do you think you

:30:37.:30:41.

had an advantage in the selection process because you are well-known?

:30:42.:30:46.

I can't walk down the street because... ! I know, don't you hate

:30:47.:30:56.

it? ! I deliberately put myself in the same position as everybody else.

:30:57.:31:01.

The biggest trust people can do is put their boat to you. I want to

:31:02.:31:09.

show that on was worthy of people entrusted me with their boat. If I

:31:10.:31:15.

fail on any step, I should hopefully be cut adrift, I worked to get onto

:31:16.:31:23.

the list, to shine sure people it wasn't just a glamour thing. The

:31:24.:31:29.

reality is that this isn't something I had to do, it's something I wanted

:31:30.:31:33.

to do. To do that properly, you start at the same place. Were you

:31:34.:31:42.

sporty at school? I was best at cricket and golf, but I follow all

:31:43.:31:48.

sports phonetically. Do you think it helps if you are fit and have the

:31:49.:31:53.

stamina? When you are a sportsman, you have a goal and you are working

:31:54.:31:56.

on something a few years in the future, everything is leading up to

:31:57.:32:00.

that event, and politics is like that too. Long-term plans. I think

:32:01.:32:06.

we have two new people in British politics and have done nothing in

:32:07.:32:09.

their lives at all but from work in research offices after Oxford -- too

:32:10.:32:15.

many people. Let's have characters in politics with a broad life

:32:16.:32:20.

experience. I think whether it is sport, business or the charity

:32:21.:32:22.

sector, people should bring something in from the outside, if

:32:23.:32:25.

you have performed well under pressure, which is a key part of

:32:26.:32:32.

sport, you have the same with elections, I want to get there and

:32:33.:32:43.

know if onlys. If only I hadn't... I want to look at the people, ask them

:32:44.:32:48.

for their vote and say I understand the issues in their area. You both

:32:49.:32:55.

suffered fairly serious injuries and both have continued with busy

:32:56.:32:58.

working lives. How have those injuries affected you in terms of

:32:59.:33:03.

the work you do and the schedule you have? I was back in hospital in the

:33:04.:33:09.

them, I had major surgery as a result of that crashed, there were

:33:10.:33:16.

some more bits and bobs of tidying up to do. It is like everything in

:33:17.:33:20.

life, we all go through bad things, it is about how we respond to them

:33:21.:33:24.

and in my case, it is a total refusal to accept that I cannot go

:33:25.:33:30.

on doing what I was doing before. Has it made you more determined? To

:33:31.:33:38.

firstly never take anything for granted, and focus on the things

:33:39.:33:42.

that matter to you. The future of this country matters to me because

:33:43.:33:46.

it is therefore my kids and grandkids. But the one I have been

:33:47.:33:51.

surprised that and want to be part of affecting change is the limits,

:33:52.:33:58.

whether they medical experts or in the sporting sense of people facing

:33:59.:34:01.

limits of what you can achieve, if you listen to them, you will only

:34:02.:34:07.

hit the ceiling. If you think, I want to get ahead, plot a pathway,

:34:08.:34:11.

you may not get there but you will break through the ceiling. I think

:34:12.:34:16.

somebody, who has had either a medical accident, a separation,

:34:17.:34:20.

whatever it is, you shouldn't let other people placed limits on you.

:34:21.:34:26.

How are you going to deal with UKIP? Who's that? What will your message

:34:27.:34:36.

bid to combat the threat? We need to create a place where the founding

:34:37.:34:42.

principle of the European Union is ever closer integration, which when

:34:43.:34:48.

the people of Europe, they can reject that massively. That is the

:34:49.:34:54.

first thing. There doesn't need to be ever closer integration. We want

:34:55.:35:03.

a divorce! That is what the majority now want. They can get remarried.

:35:04.:35:11.

Look at Liz Taylor and Richard Burton! We are going to have to let

:35:12.:35:22.

you go, I'm afraid. Did a good golf swing inhibit or enhance your

:35:23.:35:26.

batting skills? The two actually don't go very well together. You

:35:27.:35:32.

have to choose. We could talk about this for a long time! Not now!

:35:33.:35:38.

Thrilling though it is. As the Syria peace talks in Geneva enter their

:35:39.:35:41.

second day, the dispute over how to deal with the humanitarian fall-out

:35:42.:35:44.

rumbles on in Parliament. Labour want the Government to sign up to a

:35:45.:35:48.

UN resettlement programme and take in 500 refugees - and are planning

:35:49.:35:52.

to force a commons vote next week. Yesterday in PMQs David Cameron

:35:53.:36:00.

dismissed the programme as tokenism. Some countries are using this quota

:36:01.:36:04.

system as a way of saying, therefore I have fulfilled my obligations.

:36:05.:36:11.

When you have got almost half of a 9 million publishing at the risk of

:36:12.:36:14.

displacement, fact that the French or the suite are going to take if

:36:15.:36:17.

you hundreds, that is not fulfilling your obligations. -- French or the

:36:18.:36:23.

Swedes. Where is the massive amount of aid that Britain is putting

:36:24.:36:26.

forward is playing the most important role. We broadcast that

:36:27.:36:34.

live. We welcome viewers from Scotland now, they have been

:36:35.:36:39.

watching First Minister's Questions. And we're joined now by the Shadow

:36:40.:36:42.

Minister for International Development, Gavin Shuker. How many

:36:43.:36:53.

refugees should Britain take in? I think the government have got to

:36:54.:36:56.

decide that in discussions with the UN. To give you an indication,

:36:57.:37:00.

France, similarly sized country, omitted to take around 500. We are

:37:01.:37:05.

looking to resettle about 30,000 made strikes me it would make sense

:37:06.:37:10.

for us to step up to the plate. Why only 500? We have to do the due

:37:11.:37:18.

diligence to work out what we can deliver effectively, bearing in mind

:37:19.:37:20.

these are some of the most vulnerable people. That is why I am

:37:21.:37:27.

asking why only 500. There are around 4 million Syrian refugees,

:37:28.:37:29.

who are at the very least displaced, many of them across

:37:30.:37:34.

borders. So why, as a wealthy, prosperous, caring country, would we

:37:35.:37:41.

take in only 500? That is the point I'm making. We need to make sure we

:37:42.:37:44.

have decent support arrangements for those people when they do come stop

:37:45.:37:48.

we are talking about children who have lost both parents, who are very

:37:49.:37:52.

vulnerable, people who are torture victims as well. We know who we are

:37:53.:38:03.

talking about, why are Labour saying that only 500? For those people it

:38:04.:38:10.

isn't she tokenism and politics. For those people it will make a massive

:38:11.:38:13.

difference and it is a starting point. So how many would you

:38:14.:38:23.

envisage? Beyond the 500? If you look at the process that has to go

:38:24.:38:26.

forward now, the British government has to talk to the UN and decide

:38:27.:38:30.

what number it can effectively take. We are not party to those documents

:38:31.:38:34.

although starting point but we are saying something clear that David

:38:35.:38:39.

Cameron is not. You can't just rely on asylum seekers to meet your

:38:40.:38:43.

quota, would we want to do is make a difference for the most vulnerable

:38:44.:38:47.

people. Sweden, population about 8 million, much smaller numbers than

:38:48.:38:54.

us, have taken in 14,000 Syrians. And they are still taking more in.

:38:55.:39:01.

Here is the British Labour Party, a country of 60 million people, per

:39:02.:39:04.

capita income is higher than Sweden, and yet you are saying that we will

:39:05.:39:09.

take 500. What is it about the Swedes that they can take in 14000

:39:10.:39:14.

and the best you can come up with these most vulnerable people is 500?

:39:15.:39:21.

As you know from your research, the majority of those are asylum seekers

:39:22.:39:25.

coming in. What Winnie to make sure is we are able to greet those people

:39:26.:39:28.

who are seeking asylum, to go through the right protesters. But

:39:29.:39:33.

also make sure we have a programme that meets their needs. Which is why

:39:34.:39:40.

around 500 is the starting point. But we have to make sure we are

:39:41.:39:45.

meeting their needs. France is taking in 500. Other countries just

:39:46.:39:55.

more caring than we are? They aren't fitting in the same levels of

:39:56.:39:59.

investment in Syria that we are. -- putting in. That is humanitarian

:40:00.:40:06.

relief, not investment. For those lives, it is investment. If you look

:40:07.:40:12.

at the long-term challenge, whatever happens in terms of Geneva, we hope

:40:13.:40:16.

we have a good result, you will get a point where this conflict is not

:40:17.:40:19.

going to be resolved quickly, these temporary camps will be increasingly

:40:20.:40:24.

more permanent. We have a long-term responsibility. I would suggest that

:40:25.:40:33.

500 is neither here nor there. To many peoples surprise committee

:40:34.:40:35.

suggested that we should take more Syrian refugees. But the... You then

:40:36.:40:43.

spoiled it by saying we should take in Christian refugees. Christian

:40:44.:40:49.

values would say to us that where there are people, genuinely fearing

:40:50.:40:51.

for their lives, we have been the most accommodating country in the

:40:52.:40:55.

whole of the world in offering refuge people. We have lost our

:40:56.:40:59.

sense of British values. We are not having a proper debate because the

:41:00.:41:04.

two big political parties in this country have made such a mistake

:41:05.:41:09.

with total open doors to Eastern Europe that they are terrified of

:41:10.:41:12.

the immigration debate. We opened the door up to unlimited numbers

:41:13.:41:17.

from Romania and Bulgaria and closed the door to those who historically

:41:18.:41:21.

we would have given shelter to. If we re-established our own

:41:22.:41:24.

immigration policy, we could get back to Roger Chevalier 's. My point

:41:25.:41:29.

about the Christian people is it is appalling for all these people who

:41:30.:41:35.

have been displaced. There are thousands and thousands sheltering

:41:36.:41:38.

in Turkey, the burden on them is huge. It is bad enough if you are

:41:39.:41:45.

sheer or sunny, but at least in the region there are countries that you

:41:46.:41:48.

can go to. One of the big difficulties, and we're back to

:41:49.:41:53.

Iraq, one of the difficulties is that since the invasion, whole

:41:54.:41:56.

region is becoming very difficult for Christians indeed. So I was

:41:57.:42:03.

highlighting their flight. The Christians are now the most

:42:04.:42:05.

persecuted minority throughout the Middle East. You wouldn't want to go

:42:06.:42:13.

to Egypt now stop so maybe I'm the one hand, you think it is sectarian,

:42:14.:42:17.

on the other, it may be practical. Before I came into the tics, I led a

:42:18.:42:23.

Christian church and I have to say, Christian policy on this response is

:42:24.:42:27.

to let in not only questions that the most vulnerable. -- when I came

:42:28.:42:36.

into politics. They are not the only most vulnerable people. The most

:42:37.:42:40.

vulnerable are the ones without parents, who won't survive in the

:42:41.:42:43.

camps, who the UN are saying we should help. Isn't he on to

:42:44.:42:48.

something when he says, you have let in 70 people in power, you are now

:42:49.:42:55.

terrified of what immigration does -- let into many people. You know

:42:56.:42:59.

you should be suggesting a lot more people. No, I think a lot more. On

:43:00.:43:07.

that. Now, should women sacrifice having a

:43:08.:43:11.

family to ensure equality in the workplace? Nigel Farage seems to

:43:12.:43:14.

think so. His claims earlier this week that women make different

:43:15.:43:17.

choices from men for "biological reasons" has prompted quite a

:43:18.:43:26.

backlash. Let's see what he said. If you are building a career, and the

:43:27.:43:30.

broking industry lets say, which is what I did for most of my career. If

:43:31.:43:37.

you you are as valuable as the client base that will stick with you

:43:38.:43:42.

and move with you. In many cases, women make different choices to the

:43:43.:43:46.

ones that men make, simply for biological reasons. If a woman who

:43:47.:43:50.

has a client base has a child and takes two or three years off work,

:43:51.:43:53.

she is worth far less to the employer when she comes back then

:43:54.:43:58.

when she went for a, because the client base will not have stuck to

:43:59.:44:04.

her portfolio -- when she went away. If you look at the figures, actually

:44:05.:44:12.

before the Big Bang it was still an old boys club in the city, one I

:44:13.:44:16.

first worked there, it was a deeply sexist place. That has all gone

:44:17.:44:22.

completely. I don't believe in the big banks and brokerage houses, in

:44:23.:44:27.

Lloyd's of London, I do not believe there is any discrimination against

:44:28.:44:31.

women. I think young, able woman who are prepared to sacrifice the family

:44:32.:44:37.

life and stick with their career will do as well, if not better than

:44:38.:44:42.

the men. With me in the studio is a woman who

:44:43.:44:45.

has been very successful in the city. Louise Cooper is a financial

:44:46.:44:49.

analyst and commentator AND a mother - and is champing at the bit to

:44:50.:44:59.

discuss Nigel's comments. if you are a television presenter, you can have

:45:00.:45:05.

a baby and come back no problem. If you are a dentist, you can take time

:45:06.:45:11.

off and come back. If you are working on a brokerage desk, I would

:45:12.:45:18.

not even take a fortnight's holiday because that was too long to be away

:45:19.:45:22.

from those accounts. I was being specific. You said there was no

:45:23.:45:30.

discrimination against women in city firms. They are far more hard nosed

:45:31.:45:35.

and look at the bottom line. I do not believe the reason women are

:45:36.:45:40.

paid less in the city is because we have greater discrimination. I try

:45:41.:45:48.

hard not to lose my temper on air and I try hard not to insult people

:45:49.:45:52.

but for you I am going to make an exception. What you are saying is

:45:53.:45:57.

laughable, you are talking out of your bottom. For all the working

:45:58.:46:03.

mothers out there who are battling a day to day, and I know lots of them

:46:04.:46:08.

in the city, but not just in the city but elsewhere as well, who are

:46:09.:46:12.

discriminated against who are paid less than their male colleagues, who

:46:13.:46:18.

I looked over for promotion, I say on behalf of them shame on you and

:46:19.:46:23.

double shame on you because you have daughters. What kind of example are

:46:24.:46:27.

you setting to your daughters by saying what you said? Are you saying

:46:28.:46:34.

that banks in the city of London are openly and clearly discriminating

:46:35.:46:38.

today? Open and clearly is difficult, but they are

:46:39.:46:43.

discriminating. You said women go away for two or three years. I had a

:46:44.:46:49.

child and I had four months maternity leave. The maximum is 12.

:46:50.:46:55.

Why do they go away for three years? Maternity leave, gardening

:46:56.:47:01.

leave. Let me explain. In the city if you leave your firm you cannot

:47:02.:47:06.

work for anywhere else for at least three months. Most firms have six,

:47:07.:47:13.

12, 18 months of gardening leave. That costs the firm because you

:47:14.:47:18.

leave on day one with your bin bag. The new firm are willing to wait 18

:47:19.:47:24.

months for you to turn up. If it was so important for you to be there

:47:25.:47:29.

every second of the day and not have three months maternity leave, why

:47:30.:47:34.

does the city run on the let's poach other staff? Even more in the

:47:35.:47:39.

brokerage industry there is a lot of gardening leave and people in

:47:40.:47:44.

brokering firms are paying millions to guarantee somebody will arrive in

:47:45.:47:49.

18 months time which is far longer than maternity leave. Do not give me

:47:50.:47:54.

maternity leave, I say gardening leave back to you. The reason

:47:55.:48:01.

gardening leave was put in place is because people know any time away

:48:02.:48:04.

from accounts brings in the recent of risk. When I ran a company I had

:48:05.:48:10.

somebody say, I am resigning and I am going to do the childcare at home

:48:11.:48:15.

and there are now 1 million men at home bringing up children. In a

:48:16.:48:22.

fiercely competitive world like in the brokerage industry, women are

:48:23.:48:25.

disadvantaged if they have children. That is a single fact. You are

:48:26.:48:33.

saying in the city they are discriminated against. I am making

:48:34.:48:39.

the point that that lifestyle choice makes it harder. Some people manage

:48:40.:48:44.

it. I do not accept the city of London discriminates heavily against

:48:45.:48:50.

London. I do not accept that at all. You are saying women who have

:48:51.:48:55.

families are discriminated against, so women who have children are

:48:56.:49:01.

discriminated against? In a bottom-line business they make it

:49:02.:49:06.

hard for themselves. Louise is not the only person who has been

:49:07.:49:10.

screaming. We have achieved executive yet, we have a manager of

:49:11.:49:18.

a bank, they all have children and pets or all at the top of their

:49:19.:49:27.

game. Possibly the most powerful job in the Federal reserve, the head of

:49:28.:49:31.

the Federal reserve, she has got children. I wrote about the ten most

:49:32.:49:37.

influential financial women in the world. Eight of them have children.

:49:38.:49:44.

One of them is the head of one of the most successful hedge fund

:49:45.:49:48.

business in the world. Hedge fund is spend 20 hours a day at work. One

:49:49.:49:55.

was private equity. Christine Keeler guard at the IMF. It is laughable

:49:56.:50:01.

that because a person has a womb they cannot give the best to their

:50:02.:50:07.

companies. Women are paid 30% less in the city and I am suggesting it

:50:08.:50:12.

is because they make different lifestyle choices. Is that right? It

:50:13.:50:20.

may not be right, but it is the way the world is. Some women are happy

:50:21.:50:25.

to have a family and a big job, but it is difficult for them to do. If I

:50:26.:50:30.

am wrong, we have gross discrimination in the city. The

:50:31.:50:36.

reason why women are paid less in the city is because you played

:50:37.:50:40.

deliberately to all the sexist boss is out there and allow and caused

:50:41.:50:45.

this very problem. You have made the situation worse for all the working

:50:46.:50:51.

mothers, not just in the city. Would they be worth less in your party

:50:52.:50:57.

because they have children? No, I repeat I was talking about the

:50:58.:51:01.

brokerage business, a very specific audience. Deliberately people choose

:51:02.:51:08.

to have a row over it. I was being factual. It is not factual. I would

:51:09.:51:21.

not take a fortune of in that job 02 weeks. Some of these women can

:51:22.:51:25.

afford to pay for that childcare without losing the majority of their

:51:26.:51:28.

salary and that can be a big problem. Again I said shame on you,

:51:29.:51:36.

Nigel Farage. I say shame on you for all the daughters who are trying for

:51:37.:51:40.

a career in the future and for older women who want to work and they

:51:41.:51:46.

cannot work because childcare is so expensive. You are making the

:51:47.:51:53.

situation worse. I was talking about one specific area. Are you finished?

:51:54.:52:01.

I have finished, yes. Justin Bieber has been arrested for

:52:02.:52:05.

drunken driving and drag racing in Miami Beach! There's nothing he

:52:06.:52:11.

cannot do to improve his street cred. Politicians across the land

:52:12.:52:18.

are known for their probity, love of a quiet night in with a cup of

:52:19.:52:26.

cocoa. One famous Labour hod, the Red Lion has been turned into a wine

:52:27.:52:32.

bar. There is a metaphor in there somewhere. Before they all

:52:33.:52:36.

disappeared Giles is back to give us his guide through Westminster's most

:52:37.:52:44.

famous boozers. Two pints of Lager and a packet of crisps, please.

:52:45.:52:50.

When it comes to Westminster's watering holes, the Red Lion is the

:52:51.:52:55.

grand dad. It has been an establishment here since 1435.

:52:56.:53:00.

Whilst we are speaking of the evil, remember Charlie Whelan? He tweeted

:53:01.:53:07.

this is the pub where he told the Prime Minister Tony Blair we were

:53:08.:53:11.

not joining the euro. It is a place where people meet. A lot of people

:53:12.:53:16.

think it is a corridor with a bar in it. But this is the corridor where

:53:17.:53:22.

people walk back and forth into Whitehall into the Parliamentary

:53:23.:53:25.

estate. People gravitate around here. But it is not the only place

:53:26.:53:32.

where people drink. If you are looking for a more right of centre

:53:33.:53:37.

watering hole, it is this place, the Marquis of Granby, and on the

:53:38.:53:44.

pavement you will often find Conservative headquarters workers,

:53:45.:53:47.

party workers, several right-thinking think tanks around

:53:48.:53:54.

the corner whose staff comes here. Nigel Farage celebrated his local

:53:55.:53:59.

election victory in this place. But there is the Red Lion, there is the

:54:00.:54:08.

blue bull bar, but there is one place where people mingle quite a

:54:09.:54:13.

lot and it is not outside the Palace of Westminster. Inside Parliament

:54:14.:54:19.

there are only two buyers. One of them is attached to the terrace. The

:54:20.:54:25.

sports and social one tends to be for younger workers and only a

:54:26.:54:30.

handful of MPs use that for a variety of reasons. Strangers is

:54:31.:54:35.

where MPs entertain guests and talk to journalists and they might

:54:36.:54:40.

actually tell you what they think. It has had a fight, including

:54:41.:54:45.

head-butting, but it is the watering hole inside the Palace of

:54:46.:54:50.

Westminster. That is all I know. Lord knows why they thought I would

:54:51.:54:54.

know anything about this subject! He did his research. We are joined

:54:55.:55:01.

by two pints Kevin Maguire from the Mirror. There we are. Get that down

:55:02.:55:10.

you. I know you prefer champagne, Andrew. I guess the budget would not

:55:11.:55:21.

go that way. It is a bit sad? It is and the Red Lion is where Tony Blair

:55:22.:55:26.

was told by Charlie Whelan that Britain was not going to join the

:55:27.:55:32.

euro in labour's first time. It should have a blue flag on the

:55:33.:55:40.

outside! That politics is changing. Nigel is old school because he does

:55:41.:55:44.

drink beer and has been featured in buyers because now it is more women

:55:45.:55:51.

and family friendly hours. Now they are all having coffee in portcullis

:55:52.:55:57.

house. Have they taken the decision the new generation of Westminster

:55:58.:56:02.

people would rather be it a wine by about a pub? That is probably true.

:56:03.:56:08.

There has been a lot of pressure to open a wine bar in the hands of

:56:09.:56:11.

Commons itself, but that has not happened. Is it not the truth that

:56:12.:56:18.

Robin Cook's family friendly changes may have been good, but they have

:56:19.:56:22.

killed a bit of the nightlife of Westminster? It certainly has. You

:56:23.:56:29.

get the odd punch-up, but not that many now. Not enough to keep you

:56:30.:56:37.

hanging around. Eric Joyce is a rarity, but he took against the

:56:38.:56:44.

conservative MPs. Don't the Labour MPs get a bit lonely? They go to

:56:45.:56:52.

their own homes. If the choice is between a commercial pub like the

:56:53.:56:57.

Red Lion or a subsidised drink inside the palace, they are going to

:56:58.:57:01.

take a subsidised drink? Of course they are, they kept the pennies like

:57:02.:57:09.

anyone else and they do not get ?400 a month lightly used to get. What

:57:10.:57:14.

about the journalists? It is the same for journalists. A lot of

:57:15.:57:21.

sparkling water. Last night there were more of us not drinking than

:57:22.:57:27.

there were drinking. In the straitened times, time to find that

:57:28.:57:31.

the answer to the quiz. Which of these has the largest number of

:57:32.:57:33.

followers on Twitter? UKIP weather is new and enormous

:57:34.:57:49.

fun. Let's hope it is that. Do you know? You are right it has 109,000

:57:50.:57:57.

followers. You have 103,000. UKIP weather is the best. A man in

:57:58.:58:04.

Peterborough went into a pub and ordered a glass of white wine,

:58:05.:58:10.

council is on alert. A man won ?50 on a scratchcard. High winds at the

:58:11.:58:17.

garden centre in Kent after two men were spotted heading towards the

:58:18.:58:21.

plants without stopping to look at the ride on lawn mowers.

:58:22.:58:30.

Time for a drink, I think. Thank you to all of our guests. I will be back

:58:31.:58:36.

tonight on this week on BBC One with Alan Johnson, Michael Portillo,

:58:37.:58:42.

Miranda Green, Nick Watt and comedian Russell Kane and a female

:58:43.:58:47.

racing driver. I will be back at noon tomorrow with all of the

:58:48.:58:51.

stories today. I do not drink pints, so I am going to hand this

:58:52.:58:56.

over to you. I will drink it anyway!

:58:57.:59:12.

The average person moves home eight times during their life.

:59:13.:59:18.

So that's eight times we have to move the sofa.

:59:19.:59:22.

Eight times we have to redecorate.

:59:23.:59:26.

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