30/01/2014 Daily Politics


30/01/2014

Jo Coburn with political news and debate, plus the latest on the government's plans to protect homes from flooding. With former director of public prosecutions Sir Keir Starmer.


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Transcript


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catch up with the weather. the Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily

:00:36.:00:40.

Politics. MPs are debating the Immigration Bill, but for many

:00:41.:00:43.

Conservative MPs it's just not tough enough. Will the Government's

:00:44.:00:50.

concessions be enough to head off the rebels, and why are so many

:00:51.:00:53.

Tories unhappy with their own party's policies on migration. Is it

:00:54.:00:58.

OK to light up with the kids in the back seat? The days of smoking

:00:59.:01:02.

behind the wheel of the family car could be numbered after a surprise

:01:03.:01:05.

victory in the House of Lords. Will MPs back the ban? Labour is calling

:01:06.:01:10.

on the Government to apologise over the miners' strike. Is there a case

:01:11.:01:14.

to answer, and is it wise to relive the political battles of the past?

:01:15.:01:20.

And, is David Cameron Scottish? Is Vince Cable a doctor? And is Theresa

:01:21.:01:26.

May turning into a supermodel? We'll look at the things people really

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want to know about their politicians.

:01:30.:01:34.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole programme today is

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Kier Starmer, he's a defence barrister specialising in human

:01:40.:01:42.

rights and was Director of Public Prosecutions until last year. And if

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you have any thoughts or comments on anything we're discussing then you

:01:50.:01:53.

can send them to us or tweet your comments.

:01:54.:01:58.

Let's start with news that the military is being sent into the

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flood-hit county of Somerset. Military planners have met council

:02:04.:02:06.

officials to see what support is needed, and the Environment

:02:07.:02:09.

Secretary, Owen Paterson, has said amphibious vehicles could be

:02:10.:02:11.

deployed within 24 hours to help flood victims.

:02:12.:02:17.

Met Office statistics show that the southeast and central southern

:02:18.:02:21.

England has already suffered its wettest January since records began

:02:22.:02:28.

in 1910. Some villages have been cut off for almost a month. More rain is

:02:29.:02:37.

thought to be on the way. The pictures are unbelievable, looking

:02:38.:02:41.

up parts of the country that are cut off, you have to get votes to reach

:02:42.:02:46.

people or for people to get to school. Is it the governments fault

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that in an area which very susceptible to flooding, is it their

:02:51.:02:57.

fault that not more has been done? Anything I say Mass be taken with a

:02:58.:03:03.

pinch of salt. It is the wettest January for over 100 years. I cannot

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help thinking some of this could have been done a little earlier. I

:03:08.:03:11.

feel very sorry for people who have been cut off. Critics have said, had

:03:12.:03:17.

this been in Notting Hill and that area had been made and Ireland, do

:03:18.:03:22.

you think because there is so much focus on London, perhaps the

:03:23.:03:25.

military would have been brought in quicker? There does appear to be

:03:26.:03:31.

more focus on London but I do not know the background. We did know the

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weather was coming. I am not sure anything more could have been done

:03:38.:03:41.

quicker. Now it's time for our daily quiz. In an interview with Steve

:03:42.:03:46.

Wright on Radio 2 the Prime Minister was asked which reality TV show he

:03:47.:04:00.

would rather go on. So which of the reality shows did he pick? Was it...

:04:01.:04:04.

A) Strictly Come Dancing, b) The Great British Bake Off, c) I'm A

:04:05.:04:08.

Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, or d) Splash? At the end of the show, Keir

:04:09.:04:14.

will give us the correct answer. You have plenty of time to think about

:04:15.:04:19.

it. Now, last year, three men were caught taking tomatoes, mushrooms,

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cheese and cakes from the dustbins behind a branch of the supermarket

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Iceland. Sounds like they were planning on an omelette and pudding

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for dinner. But they were arrested as they left with the food, and

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charged under the 1824 Vagrancy Act. The Crown Prosecution Service said

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there was significant public interest in prosecuting the men, but

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yesterday after a public outcry on the internet decided to drop the

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case. Well, our guest of the day was head of the CPS. We're also joined

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by the lawyer representing one of the men known on social media as the

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Iceland three, Mike Schwarz. Welcome to the programme. Was it really

:04:56.:05:01.

worth trying to bring a case against these men? It seems to be sensible

:05:02.:05:07.

to drop the case. The important thing to appreciate is there are

:05:08.:05:12.

hundreds of thousands of decisions that the CPS has two make every

:05:13.:05:16.

year. Sometimes they get it wrong. It looks to me this is one that

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should not really have been brought. The good thing is, they've reviewed

:05:22.:05:26.

it and dropped it. I think that is a good way to operate. Any

:05:27.:05:33.

organisation will make mistakes. The real test is, do you put right a

:05:34.:05:38.

wrong decision? You are obviously pleased about that decision. They

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said they were going to prosecute under the Vagrancy Act. I suppose it

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is a crime. Their defence was they were not acting dishonestly. The

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suggestion was they were going to steal food. They said this was food

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that had been thrown away, that was going to waste. It had been frozen

:06:00.:06:06.

and was thawing out. They needed it to feed themselves so they were not

:06:07.:06:11.

acting dishonestly. On the question of the process, yes, it is right for

:06:12.:06:17.

the CPS to review the case. We asked them to review it. There were

:06:18.:06:22.

significant public interest. It was only in the last 24 hours that the

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case was dropped, simply because of the media and public outcry about

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the case. Not because of their own internal processes and review, as

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you were suggesting. Is it now being left to the public to be judge and

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jury in deciding whether certain things are prosecuted? I do not know

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the precise details. Cases ought to be under continual review. Sometimes

:06:49.:06:53.

they are reviewed because the lawyer spots something that means the case

:06:54.:06:57.

should not go ahead and sometimes it is because somebody has made a

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representation. It is kept under review. The important thing is, is

:07:00.:07:08.

it an organisation that, when it recognises a case should be brought,

:07:09.:07:15.

stops that case and reviews it? It does not get everything right all

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the time but it is a big thing when an organisation says, actually, this

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case on balance should not have been brought and we will drop the case.

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It was a nice glass for the CPS and for Iceland. There was a public vote

:07:29.:07:35.

to get these defendants out of court. The PR machines within

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Iceland, and one has to say within the CPS as well, got moving once

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they saw a report in the Guardian and accelerated media and twitter

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campaign against this. As a result, it appears the chief executive of

:07:53.:07:59.

Iceland got on the phone literature literally or figuratively and said,

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dropped the case because it is doing us tremendous damage. The CPS had a

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statement on file. Nothing in terms of evidence changed. It rather

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exposes the CPS? I do not know the precise details of what has gone on.

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I will speak generally. However a case is brought up for review, it is

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a good thing if it is reviewed and dropped when it should be dropped.

:08:35.:08:38.

Usually, when that happens, you can say it should happen more quickly.

:08:39.:08:44.

It was not as a result of the review, only as pressure from

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outside. Very often it is due to pressure from outside. People can

:08:53.:08:56.

ask for a case to be reviewed. That is not unusual and it is sensible.

:08:57.:09:01.

We learned this week that for the first time since before the crash,

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according to one poll, immigration is the number one issue for the

:09:04.:09:08.

public ahead of the economy. And it is certainly top of the agenda at

:09:09.:09:10.

Westminster today, as the Immigration Bill is back in the

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Commons. The main thrust of the bill, which has widespread support,

:09:15.:09:17.

will make it easier to deport foreign criminals, introduce new

:09:18.:09:19.

checks on immigrants' legal status, and take steps to cut back on what's

:09:20.:09:26.

known as benefits tourism. But the Government's facing a possibly

:09:27.:09:29.

rebellion as many Tory MPs push for a ban on foreign criminals using

:09:30.:09:33.

European human rights law to avoid deportation. Let's go over to our

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political correspondent, Norman Smith. Where does the Government

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stand with its bill? Mr Cameron is facing another major showdown with

:09:52.:09:54.

backbenchers over our old friend, Europe. You might think, what on

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earth does this have to do with the immigration bill? A couple of

:10:00.:10:04.

critical amendments have been tabled. One would restrict the

:10:05.:10:14.

rights of foreign prisoners to use European human rights legislation to

:10:15.:10:18.

avoid being deported. Another imposes restrictions on Romanians

:10:19.:10:22.

and Bulgarians coming to the UK. What I find extraordinary is that

:10:23.:10:27.

this morning we had the former Tory leader going on the wireless

:10:28.:10:31.

saying, we have to stop these rebellions. It is damaging the party

:10:32.:10:38.

and it is damaging unity. We had one leading rebels saying, I am not

:10:39.:10:42.

going to be joining the rebels. We need to get out of this habit. We

:10:43.:10:46.

are too close to a general election. Despite that, we seem on

:10:47.:10:52.

course to two very sizeable and significant revolts over Europe this

:10:53.:10:56.

afternoon. A number of rebels are blaming the Government for trying to

:10:57.:11:03.

use parliamentary shenanigans and tactics to try to talk out

:11:04.:11:09.

amendments that many Tory MPs would like to have tabled. There is no

:11:10.:11:14.

doubt government did try parliamentary gamesmanship to find

:11:15.:11:17.

various means of ensuring these votes could be avoided. the speaker

:11:18.:11:31.

decided to select these amendments. More than 100 MPs have signed up to

:11:32.:11:37.

them. He took the view that it was unacceptable, not to allow that sort

:11:38.:11:40.

of issue, with that sort of importance and that sort of backing,

:11:41.:11:47.

to be voted upon. Big rebellions by Tory MPs but not enough to defeat

:11:48.:11:54.

the bill, or... ? We are in a moving situation. I think you will find

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strenuous efforts are under way to try to find a compromise deal, in

:11:59.:12:03.

particular with this motion restricting the right of foreign

:12:04.:12:07.

prisoners to use human rights legislation. It was interesting that

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Mr Cameron had an interview with colleagues on local radio this

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morning which was suddenly cancelled. One can only suspect he

:12:17.:12:20.

has found more pressing business he needs to attend to. They will be

:12:21.:12:25.

working very hard to find a compromise deal to avoid these

:12:26.:12:31.

revolts. Thank you very much. As you have heard, MPs are debating this in

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the House of commons. Here is Theresa May speaking a few moments

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ago. This immigration bill is an important bill. It has widespread

:12:42.:12:46.

support outside of this house. It is a bill which will ensure we have

:12:47.:12:51.

greater ability, as a government, to make it harder for people to live

:12:52.:12:56.

here in the United Kingdom illegally and make it easier for asked to

:12:57.:12:59.

remove people who are here illegally, and will also streamline

:13:00.:13:07.

the process we have four appeals. The Home Secretary, Theresa May. And

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I'm joined now by the Conservative MP, John Baron, the former Home

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Office minister and Labour MP Meg Hillier, and by UKIP's head of

:13:15.:13:18.

policy Tim Akers. Welcome to all of you. On the amendment from Nigel

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Mills to reinstate the restrictions to Romanians and Bulgarians to 2019,

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I understand, it is not going to go through because many people claim it

:13:31.:13:35.

is just illegal. The Government says it is illegal. It is unrealistic and

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designed to embarrass the Government. It is designed to get a

:13:39.:13:44.

message across. This is not a party political issue. It has been raised

:13:45.:13:50.

for a couple of years. The Government decided to move the

:13:51.:13:54.

debate and vote to after Christmas. That is why it is retrospectively

:13:55.:14:00.

illegal. That is what Parliament is about. The theory of vote would not

:14:01.:14:04.

have stopped missiles going in but it is about sending a message that

:14:05.:14:07.

needs to be understood at the centre. I am not prepared for the

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bill to fall. I am supporting the bill at third reading. It does move

:14:17.:14:20.

us in the right direction. With all due respects, immigration under

:14:21.:14:27.

Labour was a shambles. The front bench has apologised. It is our duty

:14:28.:14:30.

to try to approve legislation where we can. Is the amendment actually

:14:31.:14:38.

legal? The Government says it is not because of the laws we are signed up

:14:39.:14:48.

to with the European Union? Pretty much everybody sees that and except

:14:49.:14:57.

that. -- accents that. It is accepted it would not be lawful but

:14:58.:15:02.

the purpose is to send a message. There seems to be a consensus that

:15:03.:15:09.

this would not be lawful. Why are you tabling an amendment which is

:15:10.:15:15.

not lawful and could not become law? You are using Parliament and the

:15:16.:15:18.

House of Commons for your own political purposes. That is to send

:15:19.:15:23.

a message that you should be doing outside of the jurisdiction of

:15:24.:15:27.

legislation. The reason is, at the end of the day, Parliament is also

:15:28.:15:33.

about debating issues. Having the opportunity to discuss an issue

:15:34.:15:37.

which, broadly speaking, we have been denied the opportunity properly

:15:38.:15:43.

for a number of years. We have been raising this on the floor of the

:15:44.:15:46.

House and have been wanting a full debate about it. We wanted full

:15:47.:15:51.

discussion about the merits and so forth. It is about sending a

:15:52.:15:56.

message. Let's try to improve things going forward in the way we

:15:57.:16:00.

communicate and address this fundamental issue. Had we addressed

:16:01.:16:03.

it a couple of years ago, it might have been easier to address many of

:16:04.:16:09.

the issues with in it. You are blaming the Government. I am blaming

:16:10.:16:14.

them because we should have... It is not just us on the Conservative

:16:15.:16:19.

benches, opposition is from the Labour benches as well. This is dog

:16:20.:16:28.

whistle politics and a dog whistle bill. A speech is made one day then

:16:29.:16:32.

let's make life tricky for immigrants and the next day a lot of

:16:33.:16:37.

those things are put in. I was on the committee and some of these

:16:38.:16:40.

amendments are needed because it is so badly put together. I am

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supporting the amendment. As a former Home Office minister I saw

:16:45.:16:48.

some of the challenges there. This is not something which can become

:16:49.:16:53.

law. It is tactics. But it is about sending out a message that actually,

:16:54.:16:56.

we are in parliament to legislate and if we want to change the law,

:16:57.:17:00.

there are better vehicles to do that. To do that at the last minute

:17:01.:17:07.

just goes to show... But you are in favour of toughening up this

:17:08.:17:10.

immigration Bill? You said you are a symmetry on the Dominic Raab

:17:11.:17:14.

amendment which says it is illegal to deport a foreigner if they face

:17:15.:17:21.

torture or death. I do support that. As a Home Office minister I dealt

:17:22.:17:25.

with cases where people had terrible things done to them by somebody who

:17:26.:17:29.

was not British and we could not deport them. It was a real

:17:30.:17:35.

challenge. If I may say, you could argue that that amendment would be

:17:36.:17:40.

illegal as well. It might get tested in the courts. The Dominic Raab

:17:41.:17:47.

amendment throws up other issues. Fundamental human rights are

:17:48.:17:51.

enshrined in human rights act and to exclude a certain category of

:17:52.:17:59.

individuals from human rights is a slippery slope. You next are you

:18:00.:18:03.

going to exclude from which fundamental right? There are real

:18:04.:18:07.

issues. The second matter of principle is we have a judiciary in

:18:08.:18:10.

this country which is widely respected and this is about

:18:11.:18:13.

shackling them and stopping them to justice in the case which is in

:18:14.:18:18.

front of them. I think that is a very odd way to proceed. How is it

:18:19.:18:26.

shackling them? A foreigner convicted of a serious crime,

:18:27.:18:29.

claiming he or she has a right to a family life, do you accept that has

:18:30.:18:35.

been abused in the past as a way of staying in the UK? That claim can be

:18:36.:18:38.

made, and it is for the judge to take into account whether it is

:18:39.:18:43.

right or wrong, that is why we have courts. The mere fact that you make

:18:44.:18:46.

the claim does not mean you stay. The judge looks at the individual

:18:47.:18:53.

case. By and large, measures which stop judges doing justice in

:18:54.:18:56.

individual cases are wrong in principle. Should there be a

:18:57.:19:03.

judicial review? We should be able to have our Parliament decide on our

:19:04.:19:07.

human rights. All this talk, you would never guess there is an

:19:08.:19:10.

election coming up and UKIP are looking good for the European

:19:11.:19:14.

elections and suddenly the Immigration Bill comes. The talk

:19:15.:19:18.

about blocking Romanians and Bulgarians, the government had years

:19:19.:19:23.

to sort this and they are trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

:19:24.:19:26.

People will look at that as blatant electioneering. Changing this

:19:27.:19:32.

relationship with the European Convention of human rights is

:19:33.:19:34.

non-negotiable under the Lisbon Treaty. It is a take it or leave it

:19:35.:19:44.

then. Or this tinkering does not mean a thing. There are measures

:19:45.:19:50.

which will be put in place. Plans to strip terror suspects of UK

:19:51.:19:53.

citizenship, making sure landlords and banks check people's status.

:19:54.:20:06.

They should settle the issue of the UK Borders. They should back the

:20:07.:20:10.

amendment to have the referendum sooner rather than later. May I

:20:11.:20:15.

suggest there are concrete measures and teeth in this bill to toughen up

:20:16.:20:19.

on immigration. May I come back to the point about human rights. At the

:20:20.:20:24.

end of the day, we have got have a better balance in this country

:20:25.:20:28.

between the right to family life and parliament's ability to give

:20:29.:20:31.

guidelines to what is acceptable from the public's interest. That is

:20:32.:20:38.

what that amendment is about. 90% of successful appeals against

:20:39.:20:45.

deportation come through this. There are elements of the bill, approach

:20:46.:20:50.

to landlords and things which are dog whistle things. You do not

:20:51.:20:57.

support those things? Said -- stripping terror suspects of UK

:20:58.:21:04.

citizenship? It is not practical. Are you running scared of UKIP? The

:21:05.:21:11.

government has put this up as a sop to MPs. I can assure you I do not

:21:12.:21:16.

run scared of UKIP. When you are restricting the number of grounds

:21:17.:21:22.

appeals from 17 to four, that is a significant improvement with regards

:21:23.:21:26.

to allowing criminals, basically, to stay in this country. These are

:21:27.:21:32.

concrete measures in this bill to toughen up immigration, to get tough

:21:33.:21:35.

with foreign criminals and that should be welcomed by all parties.

:21:36.:21:39.

It should not be subject to party politics. And you agree. I would be

:21:40.:21:45.

delighted if John Baron agrees with UKIP on this and the offer is always

:21:46.:21:52.

there to join us. If UKIP had any MPs, which it does not, and in some

:21:53.:21:57.

ways it is outside this arena because this debate is going on

:21:58.:22:01.

inside the House of Commons, that is the biggest problem for UKIP, you

:22:02.:22:06.

are not part of all this. We are running the agenda. We pushed David

:22:07.:22:09.

Cameron to make the Europe speech and we went up in the polls. You

:22:10.:22:13.

pushed him to make the immigration speech and we went up in the polls.

:22:14.:22:22.

Don't flatter yourself. Tories are divided over this. If you want a

:22:23.:22:27.

united approach to the EU, it is UKIP. Can I suggest that is not

:22:28.:22:32.

true. We are now more united as a party than we have ever been. We

:22:33.:22:36.

have a referendum which we are all signed up to. We are trying to put

:22:37.:22:40.

legislation through Parliament, we cannot help it if Labour and the

:22:41.:22:44.

Liberals are voting down the referendum, but these are

:22:45.:22:47.

conservative measures which will be taking to the next election. Why are

:22:48.:22:52.

you doing this? 15 months from the next election and your party,

:22:53.:22:58.

according to Michael Howard, hardly a Europhile in that sense, who is

:22:59.:23:03.

saying stop it, don't do this. You are pulling the party apart, it

:23:04.:23:08.

looks divided. What do you say to him? We are here as MPs, I will be

:23:09.:23:14.

supporting the Immigration Bill but there is nothing to stop me trying

:23:15.:23:19.

to improve it. They think you are doing it just do improve your own

:23:20.:23:23.

narrative. It is up to other people to a tribute motives. What we have

:23:24.:23:29.

to do is try and improve legislation as it goes through. There are things

:23:30.:23:34.

not being discussed here at all, the impact on public health, it will

:23:35.:23:41.

encourage racism, some of my constituents are British citizens

:23:42.:23:44.

and have every right to rent a house but will face problems as a result

:23:45.:23:48.

of this Bill. There is a lot really wrong with it. So Labour will not

:23:49.:23:54.

supported? We will not be voting for it at the third reading. Are you

:23:55.:24:01.

opposing it? It is above my pay grade. I am going to abstain myself.

:24:02.:24:12.

You are sitting on a fence. There are some elements which are hateful

:24:13.:24:16.

for my constituents but there are other elements which will make a

:24:17.:24:21.

change if they do go through. Let me come back to a point made on human

:24:22.:24:25.

rights, do you accept that claim that judges have overstepped the

:24:26.:24:29.

mark in the way they do interpret these cases that are not in the

:24:30.:24:33.

public interest? No, I do not accept that. You have to balance the rights

:24:34.:24:38.

of a criminal to be deported against those they have offended against,

:24:39.:24:42.

and people feel strongly about it and I completely understand that but

:24:43.:24:46.

my view is that balance should be carried out independently by a

:24:47.:24:52.

judge. What I think is a retrograde step is to exclude even

:24:53.:24:55.

consideration of this issue for certain groups of individuals. That

:24:56.:25:00.

is a slippery slope. Who next is to be excluded from even having their

:25:01.:25:03.

rights taken into consideration? It is a slippery slope. Who would be

:25:04.:25:09.

next? It does include a right of appeal, the right to call for a

:25:10.:25:14.

judicial review, particular around the needs of children. Have

:25:15.:25:21.

fundamental rights and to say for some people, you do not have them.

:25:22.:25:25.

If you have been sentenced for more than a year, you will be deported.

:25:26.:25:32.

You are not entitled to live here, you will be deported unless there

:25:33.:25:35.

are serious grounds to believe you will be tortured or murdered. I

:25:36.:25:39.

think that is perfectly reasonable. We have seen too many cases where

:25:40.:25:47.

the right to family life has assumed to great and importance, compared to

:25:48.:25:52.

the right public interest. It is about a fundamental right, it either

:25:53.:25:56.

applies to everybody or you are picking off groups of individuals

:25:57.:25:59.

which will ring warning bells to people. When a criminal commits a

:26:00.:26:07.

crime, there is a paste to -- a price to pay to society overall and

:26:08.:26:12.

one of those is to say, we should reassess the right to family life

:26:13.:26:15.

versus the public interest with regard to protecting the public

:26:16.:26:19.

generally. No matter what anybody says, Parliament has a duty to make

:26:20.:26:23.

sure we get that balance right on the half of the law-abiding

:26:24.:26:28.

majority. Thank you to my guests. After a surprise government defeat

:26:29.:26:32.

in the House of Lords yesterday, a ban on smoking in cars with children

:26:33.:26:36.

on board has moved a step closer. Campaigners have welcomed the

:26:37.:26:42.

result. They say the move would protect children exposed to

:26:43.:26:45.

second-hand smoking. The band is not directly oppose smoking in cars with

:26:46.:26:53.

children in them, but it backs the proposal. This morning, the deputy

:26:54.:26:58.

minister Nick Clegg, who is known to be a smoker, had this to say on Elbe

:26:59.:27:04.

BC radio. I do not personally think it will work to pass a law. Of

:27:05.:27:09.

course, it is a stupid thing to do to smoke in a car with kids in the

:27:10.:27:14.

back, in the same way you should not give your child a can of Coke before

:27:15.:27:18.

they go to bed or only feed them crisps breakfast, lunch and supper.

:27:19.:27:23.

I am like anybody else, I have got small children, I'm dismayed that

:27:24.:27:27.

anyone might do that, especially in an enclosed space like that. The

:27:28.:27:31.

question is, is right to always have a law to fix something you do not

:27:32.:27:36.

like. I know the temptation is to always say, there is a problem,

:27:37.:27:41.

where is the law? I'm quite an old-fashioned liberal and I do not

:27:42.:27:44.

think you should legislate unless will make a difference. An

:27:45.:27:48.

interesting debate. Nick Clegg was speaking this morning. Giles is in

:27:49.:27:54.

central lobby to find out what MPs think. This amendment is about the

:27:55.:27:58.

principle, and not banning it. But nonetheless there is a lot of

:27:59.:28:04.

support for this. It has with me Luciano Burge. Why should the state

:28:05.:28:14.

get involved? This is a serious issue. We know every week half a

:28:15.:28:19.

million children are subjected to toxic levels of smoke because they

:28:20.:28:23.

are in a where an adult is smoking. We never every year 300,000 children

:28:24.:28:28.

have to go to the doctor because of illnesses they are suffering because

:28:29.:28:33.

of passive smoke. That is why we have been discussing it. If that is

:28:34.:28:39.

the case, why not ban smoking? This is an isolated place. Why not in the

:28:40.:28:45.

home? Can the state do this sort of thing. There are lots of things we

:28:46.:28:49.

regulate in a car already, the fact you have to wear a seat belt, the

:28:50.:28:53.

fact you cannot talk on a mobile phone and you have to have specific

:28:54.:28:58.

child seats. We are not seeking to criminalise smokers. If an adult

:28:59.:29:02.

wants to smoke, that is their right but we are concerned about

:29:03.:29:05.

protecting children and that is why we think the debate is so important.

:29:06.:29:11.

Is your objecting to this on the libertarian side that the state has

:29:12.:29:14.

no business telling people what to do on the practical side, how do you

:29:15.:29:23.

enforce it? It is both. It is not practical to enforce it. The police

:29:24.:29:29.

are already stretched. They should not be prioritising stopping cars

:29:30.:29:32.

where someone may be smoking and trying to work out whether the child

:29:33.:29:37.

is under 18 or over 18, is the person is opposed to try and prove

:29:38.:29:41.

that the age is someone over 18. How will we check this? A burglar is

:29:42.:29:53.

going to be walking down the street and impeded because the police will

:29:54.:29:57.

be rounding up people smoking in cars. You know the children will

:29:58.:30:02.

kick off and tell the parents, we are talking about toddlers and young

:30:03.:30:06.

kids here. Is there a balance to be struck between the rights of people

:30:07.:30:09.

to choose to do something and the rights of the state to look after

:30:10.:30:13.

children who cannot voice that complaint? You are saying it is

:30:14.:30:17.

topless and small children, I do not think that is what the Labour Party

:30:18.:30:22.

is proposing, they are saying people under 18 -- toddlers and small

:30:23.:30:29.

children. This is a private space. Luciano cannot complain that it is

:30:30.:30:34.

terrible to smoke in a car in front of young children but in a caravan

:30:35.:30:38.

it is fine, a similarly imposed space. This is the march of the

:30:39.:30:44.

nanny state, the patronising nanny state where we know best and other

:30:45.:30:49.

MPs have come into Parliament to try and ban everything they do not like.

:30:50.:30:58.

Do you want to ban everything? Of course not. We are talking about

:30:59.:31:04.

concentrated levels of smoke in a car. In terms of how you might

:31:05.:31:08.

enforce it, we want to learn from the experience of other countries

:31:09.:31:12.

where they already have this legislation. Certain states of

:31:13.:31:17.

America, Canada, Australia and South Africa. Never where it has worked

:31:18.:31:21.

well and whether you go down the criminal or civil route. We would

:31:22.:31:34.

like people to back the principal, is what you are saying, but you have

:31:35.:31:37.

not worked out how you will do that. The last Labour government

:31:38.:31:44.

commissioned research into this area. It is only a shame the current

:31:45.:31:50.

government cancelled it when it came into office in 2010. We need to have

:31:51.:31:57.

that work done. The issue is that we are keen to protect children who do

:31:58.:32:01.

not have a voice and do not choose which vehicle they travel in. Do not

:32:02.:32:08.

think that what will happen in the end is that people will not do it

:32:09.:32:14.

anyway? Parents are much better in bringing up their children than the

:32:15.:32:18.

state. I trust parents to make the right decisions. The challenge, as I

:32:19.:32:26.

said at the start of half a million children every week are still

:32:27.:32:30.

subjected to this. Education is really important. Legislation can

:32:31.:32:35.

help. With car seats, when the wearing a safety belt came in, we

:32:36.:32:46.

saw a change. MPs from all over the House supported. 22 members of

:32:47.:32:53.

coalition MPs supported it in 2011. We will have to see what happens. If

:32:54.:33:00.

I ever dared to smoke in my car, my children would go crazy, so that

:33:01.:33:04.

will not happen. It is a free votes they are not so tied to party

:33:05.:33:11.

loyalties. -- a free vote, so they are not tied. And we've been joined

:33:12.:33:21.

by viewers in Scotland, who have been watching First Minister's

:33:22.:33:29.

Questions from Holyrood. Recently released official papers show that

:33:30.:33:32.

Margaret Thatcher 's garment had a secret plan to close 75 pits. --

:33:33.:33:40.

government. Here is what David Cameron said yesterday. We have a

:33:41.:33:45.

system called releasing paperwork from ten, 20, 30 years ago and we

:33:46.:33:50.

should stick to that. If anyone needs to make an apology for the

:33:51.:33:58.

role in the miners' strike, it should be Arthur Scargill. If anyone

:33:59.:34:03.

else wants to ask about their roles, it is the role of the leader of the

:34:04.:34:06.

low the party. They never condemned the fact they want to hold a ballot.

:34:07.:34:18.

-- the Labour Party. I am joined by the Labour MP calling for an apology

:34:19.:34:28.

and by the Conservative MP, Andrew Russell Nelson. It is about newly

:34:29.:34:34.

released information from the Cabinet papers. We have asked for an

:34:35.:34:38.

apology but it does not look like we will get one. We have called for

:34:39.:34:44.

transparency. In the Cabinet papers, it did show that the Government at

:34:45.:34:48.

the time is pressurising the police. We have asked for full transparency.

:34:49.:36:35.

In relation to what happened, We are asking very specific questions. We

:36:36.:36:40.

needed the backbenchers to give something to cheer about. I

:36:41.:36:43.

understand in the heat of the moment why David Cameron was particularly

:36:44.:36:48.

boorish but I think it was relevant to the questions that we were

:36:49.:36:55.

calling for. It was not relevant to the miners strike. It is really

:36:56.:37:02.

important to understand this. The Cabinet papers highlighted some very

:37:03.:37:05.

specific issues around policing and whether the public were lied to. We

:37:06.:37:09.

are saying, let's have transparency and reconciliation. You are the

:37:10.:37:16.

government of the day, publish the materials. The idea that Mrs

:37:17.:37:21.

Thatcher's government was anti the mining communities is wrong. You

:37:22.:37:27.

have indicated that. There were 80% less of them at the end. We were

:37:28.:37:31.

going through a change in nationalised industries and all

:37:32.:37:33.

these things were happening at the time. We all know what took place

:37:34.:37:38.

but to try and make out somehow how government was trying to undermine

:37:39.:37:44.

the mining communities was not correct. Scargill was using those

:37:45.:37:48.

people sadly for his own political ends and had he got away with it he

:37:49.:37:51.

could have brought down a critically elected government and undermine did

:37:52.:37:55.

our Chrissy and Mrs Thatcher was right to stand up to it. We will

:37:56.:38:00.

come back to the Battle of that Jan Scargill. On the issue of the

:38:01.:38:07.

papers, did the Conservative government lie about what they were

:38:08.:38:15.

doing? Why did they keep it secret? Why did they keep it secret which

:38:16.:38:21.

led to decades of deprivation and social collapse. I do not think

:38:22.:38:25.

anyone was lying. We are talking about 30 years ago and neither of us

:38:26.:38:30.

was a member of Parliament. Many options would have been bound to be

:38:31.:38:35.

considered. Quite where it ended, who could have told at that

:38:36.:38:39.

particular point. Clearly, they were looking at different options and the

:38:40.:38:44.

papers have revealed that. There was economic change, it was part of a

:38:45.:38:55.

plan to close are uneconomic pits. There is always the secrecy with

:38:56.:38:58.

Cabinet papers, what is the point of trying to break over this now?

:38:59.:39:04.

Andrew is arguing with himself. He is saying this is economic, it is

:39:05.:39:11.

deindustrialisation. It was. They did say that at the time and the

:39:12.:39:15.

Cabinet papers said that was not their position. It was about

:39:16.:39:20.

politics. They felt that the mining communities were a threat to the

:39:21.:39:25.

government. Norman Tebbit yesterday likened the mining strike to the

:39:26.:39:28.

Falklands War. That is a stark indication of the mentality of the

:39:29.:39:33.

government at the time. These are people who were hard-working, tax

:39:34.:39:36.

paying, law-abiding people, they were defending their jobs and their

:39:37.:39:40.

industry and at the end of it there was a secret plan and 80% of miners

:39:41.:39:48.

lost their jobs under Thatcher. The industry was totally decimated.

:39:49.:39:51.

Should Arthur Scargill apologise for what he did and the way he led the

:39:52.:39:57.

miners strike. Should Arthur Scargill apologise as well? Arthur

:39:58.:40:04.

Scargill speaks for himself. I am a member of Parliament. I am

:40:05.:40:07.

scrutinising government papers and I am asking the government to be

:40:08.:40:12.

accountable for those. Does it change your view, you have heard now

:40:13.:40:19.

what the debate is about, has it changed your mind about the miners'

:40:20.:40:25.

strike and the aftermath? I think the the transparency is a powerful

:40:26.:40:30.

one. The police and confidence in the government will only be there if

:40:31.:40:34.

we know what went on. This has to be eight powerful plea. Let's see the

:40:35.:40:38.

full details and then we can have an informed bait about what happened.

:40:39.:40:43.

Are you not kicking yourself in the foot here? Whatever the expression

:40:44.:40:53.

is. Even Neil clinic has said I was undermined by the action that Arthur

:40:54.:41:03.

Scargill was taking -- even Neil Kinnock has said that. There was

:41:04.:41:07.

something which was more damaging to labour than it ever was the

:41:08.:41:14.

Conservatives'. I am not speaking for Arthur Scargill. What I'm saying

:41:15.:41:21.

is those of us who were there who saw what happened during the strike

:41:22.:41:26.

have lived with a sense of injustice ever since, about the policing and

:41:27.:41:29.

what happened to them. I think government has an opportunity, to

:41:30.:41:35.

have full transparency and reconciliation and then we can move

:41:36.:41:40.

on. But as important to those communities today in 2014. Should

:41:41.:41:47.

David Cameron apologise? Absolutely not. We had to defeat Arthur

:41:48.:41:52.

Scargill. We were not attacking communities. We were going through

:41:53.:41:55.

economic change and it was inevitable. It is a great pity that

:41:56.:41:59.

the Labour Party are saying that actually Arthur Scargill was in the

:42:00.:42:03.

wrong. It is being reported that Labour's national executive will

:42:04.:42:07.

scrap the parties are electoral college that elected Ed Miliband,

:42:08.:42:13.

will that happen next week? You will have to wait until the changes are

:42:14.:42:18.

announced. I support big changes in the Labour Party. I am not going to

:42:19.:42:22.

go through the detail of those changes? They will be agreed through

:42:23.:42:27.

the national executive. What you are going to see next week, I am very

:42:28.:42:33.

confident about it, are big changes in the relationship between Labour

:42:34.:42:37.

and the trade unions, about Ed Miliband modernising his party and

:42:38.:42:40.

saying, we have a unique relationship with millions of

:42:41.:42:44.

people. The Tories are bankrolled by a few millionaires at the top, we

:42:45.:42:48.

want to strengthen our relationship with working people. I wanted you to

:42:49.:42:53.

answer the question, not have a quick political debate. Our guest of

:42:54.:43:00.

the day has been hired by the Labour Party to review how the criminal

:43:01.:43:07.

justice system treats witnesses and victims of crime.

:43:08.:43:10.

It has come after a high-profile case where a witness took her own

:43:11.:43:14.

life after giving evidence. We will talk about what can be done to make

:43:15.:43:17.

the court process more palatable. But what is it really like in the

:43:18.:43:23.

witness box? Frances Andrade took her own life

:43:24.:43:27.

last year a week after she had given evidence about a former music

:43:28.:43:33.

teacher who had abused her. We have spoken to a woman who knows exactly

:43:34.:43:37.

what it is like. Last summer, she gave evidence in the trial of a man

:43:38.:43:42.

accused of sexually assaulting her. He was acquitted. We are not

:43:43.:43:46.

revealing her right entity. She is particularly scathing about the

:43:47.:43:50.

judge. The way he treated me was as if he was trying to prove myself. He

:43:51.:43:55.

was not sensitive about the subject matter and had a poor understanding

:43:56.:43:59.

of sexual violence. I was made to feel like I was a little girl and I

:44:00.:44:04.

was wasting his time. Just as bad was the bureaucracy of the court

:44:05.:44:08.

process which made the experience even worse. I had random phone calls

:44:09.:44:12.

from people in the police centre have to speak to me. It was people I

:44:13.:44:16.

have never spoken to before and they said just two days before the trial

:44:17.:44:19.

but there was a great possibility that the date for the trial would be

:44:20.:44:24.

moving. When you have been waiting eight months that is a really,

:44:25.:44:29.

really big thing. The Justice Secretary Chris Grayling has

:44:30.:44:33.

listened. He has published a new version of the victims' code.

:44:34.:44:37.

Victims can read out statements about how they have been affected in

:44:38.:44:42.

court. In some cases, evidence can be pre-recorded. And then there are

:44:43.:44:47.

people like Linda from the charity victim support. She prepares

:44:48.:44:51.

witnesses of all ages for being cross-examined. They will put it to

:44:52.:45:05.

you it did not happen at all. An adult can understand all of that.

:45:06.:45:10.

They have been in that situation and will answer with their own sarcasm

:45:11.:45:15.

perhaps. A child has no idea what any of that means. They will have no

:45:16.:45:21.

tools to counteract that. Witnesses are allowed to have someone like

:45:22.:45:25.

Linda in court. For many victims, it is the nature of the system that is

:45:26.:45:31.

a problem. I felt I was a small part of the thing. They would not have

:45:32.:45:36.

had a case had I not gone through the whole process. We asked the

:45:37.:45:43.

Ministry of Justice about this. A new victims code gives victims the

:45:44.:46:03.

option to read out their personal statement and tell the court how

:46:04.:46:09.

crime has affected them. Barbara is here to discuss this. The code of

:46:10.:46:14.

conduct for barristers has been replaced and we have just talked

:46:15.:46:18.

about the new victims code. Do we need anything else? We do. I am in

:46:19.:46:23.

favour of the work that has already been done but we cannot escape the

:46:24.:46:27.

conclusion that most vulnerable victims do not have the confidence

:46:28.:46:30.

to even come forward to report what has happened to them because they

:46:31.:46:36.

fear the process. When they do come forward, most of them say they will

:46:37.:46:41.

not do it again. I am a big fan of a criminal justice system. I do think

:46:42.:46:45.

that in relation to victims, we cannot go on any more simply saying,

:46:46.:46:50.

that is the way it is, bad luck. We need to take it much more

:46:51.:46:55.

seriously. That is a shocking indictment on the criminal justice

:46:56.:47:01.

system. Some victims have such a terrible experience at some said

:47:02.:47:05.

they would not do it again. Anyone who present in a criminal trial must

:47:06.:47:10.

be treated fairly and appropriately. What does appropriate

:47:11.:47:16.

mean? Anyone who makes an allegation about a criminal offence is not a

:47:17.:47:20.

victim until it has been proved and someone has been convicted. We are

:47:21.:47:24.

in danger of confusing the situation where someone is being asked to give

:47:25.:47:28.

evidence and is there as a witness and the position of someone who is

:47:29.:47:34.

able to be vindicated in court because the jury has accepted the

:47:35.:47:37.

story and may become the victim. There is a huge amount of support to

:47:38.:47:46.

to a European directive. Victims have a charter of entitlements to

:47:47.:47:53.

support them. Do you back that? This is what has been demanded and it has

:47:54.:47:59.

been implemented. It is important to look at the system in its proper

:48:00.:48:04.

context. We have statutes and legislation setting out what the

:48:05.:48:08.

defence can do. We have never had a victims law in this country. That is

:48:09.:48:13.

quite remarkable given the central importance of evicting, something

:48:14.:48:17.

that clearly set out in law that entitlements and makes them

:48:18.:48:26.

enforceable. What sort of Lord you want? They have a right to anonymity

:48:27.:48:34.

in certain types of crime and European Union directive, which sets

:48:35.:48:38.

out their entitlements. They have a Human Rights Act which allows them

:48:39.:48:42.

to participate effectively in these proceedings. They are entitled to

:48:43.:48:45.

special measures when they are vulnerable. I do not understand what

:48:46.:48:49.

more it is they need that they do not have already. Victims say they

:48:50.:48:58.

do not have the confidence to come forward. They said they would not do

:48:59.:49:03.

it again. If you ask most people who have been through the process

:49:04.:49:05.

whether they have been treated fairly, almost all of them would say

:49:06.:49:11.

no. We cannot ignore that. Something has to change. If victims feel they

:49:12.:49:15.

are the ones that have done wrong, I accept your point but until the case

:49:16.:49:21.

has been proven one way or the other... If you are made to feel

:49:22.:49:30.

about the guilty party yourself, it surely the onus is in the wrong

:49:31.:49:36.

place? It is a two-way street. If you are making a very serious

:49:37.:49:42.

accusation, that person will want to defend themselves. These accusations

:49:43.:49:47.

can be unpleasant. They can be about child abuse or rape, which can be

:49:48.:49:53.

devastating. Very difficult if you are a child or a vulnerable woman.

:49:54.:49:56.

That person will want to defend themselves. These accusations can be

:49:57.:49:58.

unpleasant. They can be about child abuse or rape, which can be

:49:59.:50:00.

devastating. Very difficult if you are a child or a vulnerable woman.

:50:01.:50:07.

There are honourable men as well the defence has a right to protest the

:50:08.:50:11.

account. Part of the problem with believing the victim, people go

:50:12.:50:18.

around saying you will be believed, but sometimes people are given an

:50:19.:50:20.

unrealistic expectation that because they are told they will be --

:50:21.:50:29.

believed, they will not be challenged. Sometimes, some people

:50:30.:50:33.

come into court in cases where they are very upset and angry at the

:50:34.:50:37.

thought of what has happened and they asked right and of the thought

:50:38.:50:42.

of seeing this person in court. -- they are frightened. I have given

:50:43.:50:48.

evidence myself and it is stressful. I can understand them

:50:49.:50:53.

feeling they are not being treated there but it can be a mistake in

:50:54.:51:01.

perception. Rights of defence are extremely important. Any case has to

:51:02.:51:09.

be properly tested. I do not think we can go on with the arrangements

:51:10.:51:12.

as they are. It is not just what happens in court. It is the way

:51:13.:51:16.

people are brought in to make a complaint in the first place. It is

:51:17.:51:20.

how they are dealt with and the support they have around them. We

:51:21.:51:24.

need to achieve something we have never been able to achieve before

:51:25.:51:27.

and that is getting better recognition and support for victims

:51:28.:51:33.

without taking away the important rights of the defence. That makes it

:51:34.:51:39.

difficult. I accept that. It requires us to step back and look at

:51:40.:51:43.

the entire set of arrangements from start to finish. That is what we are

:51:44.:51:47.

going through as part of the review I am carrying out for the Labour

:51:48.:51:51.

Party. We are on that journey and I want to include as many people as

:51:52.:51:58.

possible in the process. The victims commissioner said lasted that

:51:59.:52:02.

victims do not always want an offender tried and convicted.

:52:03.:52:05.

Someone the violence and behaviour against them stopped. It is

:52:06.:52:11.

interesting. How far do you go with the public interests in prosecuting?

:52:12.:52:24.

Does the expectation of you winning -- is the expectation of you winning

:52:25.:52:30.

not that high? Sometimes it is appropriate to continue with a case,

:52:31.:52:34.

even if the victim does not want to support it any more, visit may be a

:52:35.:52:39.

pattern of behaviour, it may be ongoing offending. These decisions

:52:40.:52:44.

are best made in individual cases. I am talking about something much more

:52:45.:52:48.

fundamental. We have only really been talking about victims rights in

:52:49.:52:52.

the last 15 years or so. I support all the good work that has been

:52:53.:52:58.

done. I support the code and we need to go further. The barristers code

:52:59.:53:04.

says you must not, humiliate or annoy it witness. Barristers do,

:53:05.:53:13.

don't they? If your defendant Clyde is saying to you, I have never seen

:53:14.:53:18.

this person before, the allegation is made up, they are lying. People

:53:19.:53:22.

think of something says something which is untrue that the other

:53:23.:53:25.

person is intentionally lying. The barrister has to make a judgment.

:53:26.:53:31.

The judge is there to make sure the barrister does not behave improperly

:53:32.:53:34.

or offensively and can intervene. At the end of the day, if someone is

:53:35.:53:41.

saying that did not happen, I was not there, it was not me, that has

:53:42.:53:47.

to be put to the other side. Sometimes people do live. You are

:53:48.:53:50.

carrying out this review for the Labour Party. There has been

:53:51.:53:55.

speculation you could stand to be a Labour MP in 2015. Will you? I gave

:53:56.:54:04.

up the post three months ago. I am considering a number of options.

:54:05.:54:12.

We will watch this space. We have all done it, gone to a

:54:13.:54:21.

search engine to answer a simple question like, how many Tories are

:54:22.:54:25.

rebelling over the Immigration Bill? Or is Father Christmas real? I have

:54:26.:54:31.

not done that one lately. As if by magic, the search engine knows what

:54:32.:54:35.

you are going to say before you type it. It even works with politicians.

:54:36.:54:42.

Here is Giles with more. There are certain gizmos which help you out.

:54:43.:54:48.

Like Google. It has its controversies but it has an

:54:49.:54:52.

interesting function, auto complete. A number of people have pointed this

:54:53.:54:57.

out. If you put in a question like is David Cameron... It will make

:54:58.:55:02.

some suggestions based on the searches which have already gone on

:55:03.:55:07.

under that question. It gives you the answer, is David Cameron

:55:08.:55:12.

Scottish, a Thatcherite, a Christian or dead? In the best tradition of

:55:13.:55:16.

cookery programmes, here are some I made earlier.

:55:17.:55:54.

I have to say, apart from being a bit of a giggle, this tells us

:55:55.:56:22.

absolutely nothing, except that people are obsessed with

:56:23.:56:27.

politicians' marriage status. Let's try this, is Giles still not... Oh,

:56:28.:56:32.

good lord, I will leave it there. That will just entice everybody to

:56:33.:56:38.

have a look. That was just him having a search for his own name. I

:56:39.:56:45.

should say, other search engines are available. With me in the studio is

:56:46.:56:51.

Jim Waterson from Buzzfeed UK. Do you do this a lot? A lot of people

:56:52.:56:57.

are assessed with whether Ed Miliband is made of magnets. I do

:56:58.:57:01.

not know where this is from. We have put it to Labour, they have

:57:02.:57:08.

concerned he is not but said he attracts voters! I wonder how long

:57:09.:57:12.

it took them to think of that. Is it just the most popular search engines

:57:13.:57:18.

which come up. It is a mixture of that. I think there are also a few

:57:19.:57:22.

pranksters who are having fun who are putting lines in code, somewhere

:57:23.:57:27.

hidden on websites, Google is picking up on it and that is doing a

:57:28.:57:33.

feedback loop. For a while, there was something which said is Ed

:57:34.:57:36.

Miliband a suit filled with meringues? I do not think that is

:57:37.:57:42.

actually anything. Have you ever done, is Keir Starmer... ? No! Will

:57:43.:57:53.

you do it now? I do not know. What about Buzzfeed. That is going to do

:57:54.:58:00.

politics? People want to look at fun list and they also want to read

:58:01.:58:08.

about politics and they are not separate. Our audience is anyone

:58:09.:58:12.

interested in politics. Mainly they are young people 18 to 35 at the

:58:13.:58:16.

moment but we get traffic all over the place. How will you do it

:58:17.:58:20.

differently? We have got a lot of things we are working on. The not

:58:21.:58:25.

strung by the old newspaper formats, we do not need to waffle

:58:26.:58:29.

on. That is just as well because we have run out of time. Just time to

:58:30.:58:36.

do the answer to our quiz. Which reality TV show would David Cameron

:58:37.:58:44.

rather be on? I am going to go for Splash. You are wrong. It is The

:58:45.:58:49.

Great British Bake Off. Far safer, he does not have to get into a

:58:50.:58:53.

swimming costume. Thank you to all our guests. Goodbye.

:58:54.:59:02.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate. She is joined by the former director of public prosecutions Sir Keir Starmer and gets the latest on the government's plans to protect homes from flooding.


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