04/02/2014 Daily Politics


04/02/2014

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Welcome to the Daily Politics. Today's top story, Labour discuss Ed

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Miliband's plans for changing the party 's links with trade unions. As

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a contributing jewel report into vogue as to vote rigging.

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Limited budgets mean not all parts of the coast can be protected from

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flooding. We will debate whether we should let us see back in?

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A Conservative MP deselected by his constituency party, we will discuss

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why Tory activists appear to be flexing their muscles. Should pubs

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in England and Wales big event blanket permission to open late

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during the World Cup? All that in the next hour, and with

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us for the whole programme today is the independent crossbench peer

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Julie Newberg who until 2011 was a member of the Liberal Democrats.

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There is kick-off with the tube strike in London due to start at 9pm

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this evening and last until Thursday. This morning the leader of

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the train drivers union Bob Crow called the London radio station LBC

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which was broadcasting a phone in show with Boris Johnson.

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All we want is an opportunity to talk about the tube. We have not

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condemned to score points, we want an opportunity to speak to the Mayor

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of London about the problems. It is good of you to call on, Bob, and I

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respect your position and the fact you are the leader of a very

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important union in our country and our city. I have got to tell you,

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the best way to engage with us and with me is for you guys, the RMT, to

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call off the strike and then I will be more than happy, of course, to

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sit down and talk with you. They were talking across the

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airwaves, shame they haven't managed to sit down and talk together in

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recent weeks to stop the strike action going ahead as Boris Johnson

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would like. Should the laws surrounding strike action be

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changed? It probably should be, in just the proportion of the papers

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who are the Tube workers themselves voting for strike action.

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I defend peoples right to withdraw their labour, there are a few

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exceptions and I would say the fire service that can strike, they

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probably shouldn't be able to. But clearly the Tube workers should be

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allowed to strike if they decide to do so. It must be 50% or more,

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because otherwise it seems the minority is holding Londoners to

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ransom. It is incredibly irritating, and it does have a terrible impact

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on the economy and in my view we should be clear if they are going to

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do it they have got to have a good reason, they should sit and before

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this. Should the law be changed? I would have thought so. What about

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turnout in local and European elections because there will be

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trade union members who have decided to go out on strike and say, MPs,

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MEPs, sometimes elected with far lower thresholds than 50%? The

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differences when you're voting in an election, there is an argument that

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says people should have two vote, it should be compulsory. It seems to me

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where it is a specific issue which is different from a general election

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or a European election, the union is actually deciding to withdraw

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labour, so the people who are part of union have to make a decision,

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each of them throwing in a vote, I think. It is slightly different from

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general elections. What about talks between the two sides? Why can't

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there be some sort of mediation where they meet and compromise?

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There has been some mediation but it all fell apart. There should be a

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lot more talking before you get to the moment where they say we are

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going on strike. It feels to me, and I thought the exchange between Bob

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Crow and Boris Johnson suggested that, they haven't been meeting

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regularly, why not? Time for our quiz and as we have

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been discussing, from 9pm this evening London's Underground will be

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hit by a 48-hour strike. What has Boris Johnson offered Bob Crow in an

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effort to get him to sit down for talks? Is it a pina colada?

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A pay rise for all drivers. The job of deputy mayor, or a pair of

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Bermuda shorts? Plenty of time to think about it.

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Today could be a historic one for Labour as the party discusses

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changes to this link to the unions with Ed Miliband looking to scrap

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the voting system that propelled him to power three and a half years ago.

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A number of changes are being considered by Labour's governing

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body, the National Executive including abolishing the electoral

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college method and electing party leaders. Under the current system

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the electoral college gives unions, party members and MPs one third of

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the vote each. But Ed Miliband wants to change this to a simple one

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member, one vote. Trade union members will have two become an

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affiliated member of the party, in order to vote in leadership

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elections by opting in and paying ?3 per year. Labour will hold a one-off

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conference next month to approve the new rules, but it will not result in

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any changes to the way policies are voted for at the party's annual

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conference. The proposals are not just a political gamble for Mr

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Miliband but a financial one as well. It is estimated the party

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could face a drop in funding of ?5 million when the funding changes are

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fully implemented within five years. Ahead of the meeting a confidential

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internal Labour Party report into allegations of vote rigging in

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Falkirk was leaked to the Guardian. Our political correspondent has all

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the detail of this and he joins us now.

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First of all, let's have a look at these reforms. Labour making big

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player of the fact they are reforming the party, one member, one

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vote. Does the influence of the unions diminished under these or is

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it smoke and mirrors? It depends who you ask. What began

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with a bar room brawl involving Eric Joyce, the MP for Falkirk, almost

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two years ago, has rolled on ever since then through Joyce saying he

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would stand down as a member of the Labour Party, to the whole row

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around for quick and allegations of vote rigging, in this confidential

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report. At the heart of it is the central question about the role of

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the trade unions. The party made the case that by changing the leadership

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election rules to one member, one vote, it means people are certain

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people, will not have multiple votes and therefore ordinary party

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members, whether they have joined directly or through an affiliated

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union, will have their individual say. Others say that because of the

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potential for Labour to be starved of funding because of these changes,

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they would be more reliant on the unions to go knocking on their door

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and say can you throw some pennies in our part one did not elections,

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round -- in our pot when general elections, round?

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--, and investigator went to Falkirk to

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try to find out the situation. Members were pressurised into

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competing direct debit forms, members signatures were forged.

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There is evidence they were forged on application forms or direct

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debits, they make the case that ultimately members were recruited in

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an attempt to manipulate party processes, that is essential,

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overarching conclusion. On one occasion a batch of 40 obligation

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forms was received by the party with a letter for Len McCluskey stating

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Tom Watson, senior Labour MP who happened to employ Karie Murphy,

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saying they are OK. Labour and the Unite General secretaries agree

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these will be processed. You get a sense of just how involved those

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senior figures from the union and the Labour Party are involved in

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this whole process around Falkirk. The real concern from Labour that

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there are practices going on that simply were unacceptable, machine

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politics as Ed Miliband called it. Unite all of it, they say the whole

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thing is a stitch up, and misrepresentation of Karie Murphy,

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Stephen Deans, they are furious. With this is the former Labour Home

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Secretary Alan Johnson. I am sure he is equally across all the detail.

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Let's take the details of the reform. It is about Labour breaking

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its links with the unions. Is it not the case unions will still have 50%

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of votes at the party conference, nothing changes there, and union

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members could outvote party members when it comes to voting for the

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leader, so what has changed? Who said this was about breaking the

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link with the unions? I have been arguing for 20 years, ever since

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John Smith introduced the first tranche of reforms that that

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relationship which is precious and important and we should never lose,

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would be much healthier if members made a conscious decision, union

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members of affiliated unions, made a conscious decision to pay the

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political levy, but as the system at the moment, and opt out system, and

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take that one step further and make another conscious decision to the

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associate members of the Labour Party is really further even than I

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thought we would go 20 years ago. An affiliated member will now have the

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same rights in terms of the leadership election. We allow

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students in, pensioners. 2.7 million people we are talking about. The way

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we detail what you pay to be a Labour Party member is a matter for

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us. It would be ridiculous and I didn't argue this other time if you

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turned ?3 50 affiliate into a ?45 membership fee. I hope they go on to

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beat members but these are cleaners, hospital porters, train drivers.

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These working people. It is absolutely important to have them as

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an associate member and it was never about breaking the links with the

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unions, it was about strengthening them.

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In your mind reducing the amount of influence union leaders have over

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their members and therefore as a Labour Party policy. Only in the

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sense that I call them ghost in the machines, levy paying members are

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pushed around as numbers, 1 million year, 1000 there. And their views,

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as I found out, are very different to what activists tell you their

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views are. That wasn't reflected. The important point about this is

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each of these associate members will be attached to a constituency party.

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It will be the Labour Party that controls the ballots for

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leadership, the Labour Party involves them in our local

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campaigns. Not a trade union general secretary who with all June respect

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in this day and age cannot decide how that this thousands of members

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then. -- with all due respect. Would it have been healthier to break that

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influence the bit more by stopping the big unions having so much say on

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forming policy at conferences? And Miliband said last July he will

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start an opt in system, rather than opt out. That has ramifications for

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the vote of confidence because these people are signing to be levied

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payers and the vote of confidence will depend on a number of people

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who make that decision, but our policy for a long time is no longer

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15 minute debates about Middle East by the seaside, it is in a national

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policy forum where trade unions have a third of the vote and that is very

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healthy. Except we were just hearing there from our reporter and Len

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McCluskey, if you take the financial hit which is going to come in

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somewhere, you cannot predict by how much, the Labour Party and the

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Labour leadership will be more reliant on the funds from the

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political funds, from the unions and union leaders themselves, they will

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control the amount they give later the -- Labour. The principle has to

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come first. How much to think will be lost? Lots of people would

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contribute to the Labour Party on the basis of a much healthier

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relationship, one member, one vote. We cannot be sure of that, but I am

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proud of my leader for taking the principal decision. Because of the

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hit you are going to take, and maybe over time you will recoup some of

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that lost money if people are attracted to the idea of opting in

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as Labour Party members, but what about the reliance on the unions who

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will still have a large amount of money and they will control it? I

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hope the trade unions contribute to the Labour Party, they formed it.

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Not like hedge funds which which money into the Tory party and got a

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tax cut. It is not about making it look as if it is some kind of

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transaction. Do you think this is going to transform, as Alan Johnson

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and Ed Miliband and others feel it is this relationship between the

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unions and party members and labour? We know each other well. You started

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this 20 years ago and I think this is another step on a road which the

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Labour Party has found difficult to take. Which is one member, one

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vote. I think there will be a financial hits, but I don't know how

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much. The contribution people who opt in will have to make will be

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larger than ?3 50. Some of that will be tricky for a lot of people. Do I

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think it is a good idea to go down this path, yes I do? I was part of

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the Labour Party as a student. I do think this is improvement. The

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problem is I don't think it goes far enough, even now. Let's look at

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Falkirk. It has been leaked. The party refused to publish it last

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September. There was no evidence to suggest rules were breached. This

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morning that report has been leaked by the Guardian and we know members

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were recruited without their knowledge and signatures were forged

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on Labour Party application forms. They published it online, I have not

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even read it. We heard it from our reporter, and it is listed here,

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members were recruited without their knowledge. Shouldn't people be

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disciplined? The police looked into this and dropped it. As far as the

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Labour Party's procedures are over Falkirk, I will leave it to them. We

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are going onto a by-election. If Falkirk have acted as an accidental

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catalyst for these changes, well done Falkirk. What about the trust

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of people into candidate selection? It does nothing to improve that.

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It's completely undermines it. If you have serious allegations and

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conclusions that have been found in this report? The reason why the

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report was not published is that people gave evidence to the Labour

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Party in confidence. And if people give and are told it is

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confidential, first you will get to the truth quicker and you don't let

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them down by publishing it. Do you think they should have published it?

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No, I don't. As a non-expert on Falkirk, looking at how small the

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story is to date, certain newspapers tried to blow this up into the crime

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of the century, it was dealt with and has gone on to mean huge changes

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to the party. I did try to read it this morning. I have to say it is

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ethical to read. -- difficult to read. The issue about the forgery of

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signatures is serious. I'm not saying other parties don't have

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that, but it is serious and you have to take it seriously. There is this

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strange thing, I think it happens in the three main party -- parties, you

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can receive membership as a present. Why you would want membership of a

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political party as a gift, I don't know. But it looks like people have

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been pressured into doing something they don't want to do. Let's talk

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now to the Conservative Party Chairman, Grant Shapps.

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Labour is finally saying it has a healthy relationship with the

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unions, you have one member, one vote. All the things the Tories have

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been asking for, you must want to congratulate Alan Johnson and his

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colleagues? The unions will be handed a lot more power, the union

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barons anyway, because they will have a political fund they will be

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able to give cash to Ed Miliband two when he is struggling and carry on

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buying their policies and their candidates, as happened in that

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Falkirk report. It is much more serious than you think, Alan by the

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way and involves 40 other seats as well. It means they can carry on

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selecting the leader. For the viewers watching this programme, Ed

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Miliband is, who said he was going to stand up to this stuff cannot

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stand up to those union barons, and there's no chance he will stand up

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for you, me and people watching this programme when it comes to cutting

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the deficit or getting welfare and immigration under control. Families

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will find his weak approach to this will affect their future. Are you

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worried that Labour could become a mass membership party as your

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numbers dwindle? Our numbers are not dwindling. What are they now?

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174,000. We don't ordinarily let people who join for ?1 vote. I hear

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Alan Johnson saying that the Labour Party does. In the end it is right

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to have this opting in system. So many different things, but one of

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the key recommendations is that unions don't automatically sign

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people up for labour associations as happens at the moment. People should

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opt in instead. Lots of union members, a councillor in my area, is

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a union member and he is a conservative. As long as people get

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the choice of which political party they send those affiliation fees to.

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This will hand the unions even more power and Ed Miliband has failed on

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the test he set himself to take on those union barons and is handing

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them more control. For ordinary people, the unions are in control of

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the Labour Party and that means Ed Miliband is looking out for their

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bosses are not for you. Let's talk about a man who served as UKIP's,

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wealth spokesman for a year and is the former leader of a kidnapping

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gang in Pakistan, as was revealed by BBC Newsnight last night. He was a

:21:46.:21:53.

member of the Conservative Party in 2008 and left and joined UKIP. I

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should just add, he attempted to rejoin the party last week after

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having been the UKIP spokesman. Because he is a spokesman for

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another party we rejected that application. We have a letter

:22:11.:22:16.

welcoming him rejoining the Conservative Party from the 30th of

:22:17.:22:22.

January. " I am delighted you have taken the decision to help turn

:22:23.:22:26.

Britain around by becoming a member of the party". Why did he receive a

:22:27.:22:34.

welcoming letter? We reserve the right to scrutinise the application

:22:35.:22:37.

and before that person is fully accepted we can take a decision on

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their membership will stop he is not now a member of the Conservative

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Party. He has had a letter from the lead Deputy Chairman, so this will

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not be automatic saying, I am just dropping you a brief e-mail saying I

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am delighted you have rejoined the Conservative Party. If somebody goes

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online and joins the party, which I hope many of your viewers will

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today. Well done, you have got your plug in. You go into an automatic

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system and you will receive some letters. But reserve the right to

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scrutinise anyone's membership and he is not a member of the party as a

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result of that. And in fact, anyone who is associated with another

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party, we would always look very carefully, particularly when someone

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has been speaking as a spokesman this and else, in this case UKIP.

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When he was a member of the Conservative Party, it was shortly

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after he was convicted and jailed, was that a mistake? Anyone is

:23:45.:23:51.

welcome to join the party ordinarily unless we have reason to

:23:52.:23:55.

investigate. Then they would become a member and that would be it. What

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has happened more recently in the last week, there has been reason to

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be concerned about this particular member and we have reacted as we

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described. We were talking earlier in the programme about strike rules

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bearing in mind there will be a chip strike this evening. Do you think

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those rules should be changed? For commuters, of which I am one on a

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Wednesday morning, to wake up and not be able to use the tube as you

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should be able to is ridiculous. Should the rules be changed? I am

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very sympathetic to the idea we need to do more. Given the discussion we

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have just had, if Labour and the leader came out now and were

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absolutely clear they condemn this strike it does not help anyone, let

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alone people... Do you think strike rules should be changed? I am

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sympathetic to look at these issues, the first thing is to stop

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the strike that will start tomorrow. One thing that would be very helpful

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and put a bit of distance between Labour and the unions, is if they

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would come out and condemn this strike. Thank you very much.

:25:17.:25:23.

Yesterday, the long serving Conservative MP was officially

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deselected by his constituency party in Suffolk. He is the second

:25:27.:25:31.

conservative in the last week to be told by local party Minden --

:25:32.:25:36.

members they will not be a candidate next year. He spoke to a BBC

:25:37.:25:41.

reporter after the vote. I think it is right for the whole membership of

:25:42.:25:45.

my party to vote whether I would be the candidate or not. It was a knife

:25:46.:25:53.

edge result and I respect the outcome and I will give my full

:25:54.:25:57.

support to my successor. After 30 years as an MP, it should not end

:25:58.:26:02.

this way? You take part in democracy and you don't know how elections

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will come out, sometimes you win them, sometimes you lose them. We've

:26:07.:26:11.

been joined by Paul Goodman who is editor of the Conservative Home

:26:12.:26:14.

website and used to be a Conservative MP and by the

:26:15.:26:17.

Conservative MP Anne McIntosh, who was deselected by her local

:26:18.:26:19.

constituency party last week. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Why

:26:20.:26:28.

were you deselected? I am obviously disappointed at the outcome of the

:26:29.:26:32.

ballot which does seem to be the result of some ungentlemanly

:26:33.:26:35.

behaviour which has brought discredit to the Conservative Party.

:26:36.:26:39.

I am delighted this is going to be looked into so I don't wish to

:26:40.:26:45.

comment at this stage. When you say it is being looked into? By the

:26:46.:26:48.

highest ranks of the Conservative Party. Is this about a fallout

:26:49.:26:55.

between you and a person in your constituency? So it would appear.

:26:56.:26:59.

Can I make a general comment about why it is so important to have

:27:00.:27:05.

Conservative associations? It exists under the Conservative constitution

:27:06.:27:13.

to elect councillors, MPs and MEPs and after the election to support

:27:14.:27:19.

them. My association is a very new one. The seat was only reconstituted

:27:20.:27:26.

on a boundary change in 2010. I was told in 2009 by the preferred

:27:27.:27:37.

candidate, who has - and now it has become public knowledge who the

:27:38.:27:42.

preferred candidate is, that has now happened. The whole party voted you

:27:43.:27:55.

out? I was voted out of the constituency of 11,000 voters. But

:27:56.:28:02.

within the association? I don't want to pre-empt the results of an

:28:03.:28:07.

enquiry and draw too many parallels but we had a very favourable enquiry

:28:08.:28:12.

in June last year, supported by the board of the party. If the results

:28:13.:28:18.

of that enquiry become more public knowledge, we might have seen and

:28:19.:28:23.

more different run of the ballot. I have had no personal disagreement

:28:24.:28:27.

with the overwhelming majority of the members of my association, the

:28:28.:28:34.

wider public. I had huge messages of support from them. Why has she been

:28:35.:28:39.

deselected? Is the association flexing their muscles? I don't know

:28:40.:28:45.

about that specific case because I have been in Yorkshire. But we do

:28:46.:28:49.

see a trend affecting associations which sees more and more MPs being

:28:50.:28:56.

treated as constituency workers. There is also a general fall in

:28:57.:29:01.

their status which has happened since the expenses scandal. Without

:29:02.:29:10.

making any comment, that is feeding through generally into the body

:29:11.:29:13.

politic. I don't know what happened up there and I could not comment.

:29:14.:29:19.

Tim Yeo said it was about policy issues. He was candid about his

:29:20.:29:30.

stance on climate change... If that is the case, why wasn't Crispin

:29:31.:29:33.

Blunt who was up in front of a reselection ballot in Reigate where

:29:34.:29:38.

his sexuality was said to be the issue, why wasn't he deselect it? I

:29:39.:29:44.

think with these cases, the member of Parliament and the association it

:29:45.:29:49.

is a bit like a marriage. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it breaks

:29:50.:29:55.

down. It is hard to generalise. Was it about policy in your case? I was

:29:56.:30:01.

told immediately after the ballot, which was a great surprise to

:30:02.:30:06.

everybody... Did you think you would come through? I think the party

:30:07.:30:12.

expected me to come through and as I said, ungentlemanly behaviour which

:30:13.:30:17.

I think the party has promised to look into. But it was a case I am

:30:18.:30:24.

still on the candidate's list and I can apply for any seat. One way

:30:25.:30:29.

forward would be to have an open primary and let the residents decide

:30:30.:30:32.

who they want to go forward in this case. The important thing to whole

:30:33.:30:36.

site off, it is not for the association for the number of --

:30:37.:30:45.

member of Parliament should meet. It is for the member of Parliament to

:30:46.:30:50.

be elected and be a servant of the country, constituency and the

:30:51.:31:06.

association. Clearly there is a right for association, I don't want

:31:07.:31:11.

to speak about the specifics. There must be the possibility for

:31:12.:31:14.

associations or constituency members if you like, of a particular party

:31:15.:31:18.

to say we don't want you to carry on. It is a bit like a marriage. It

:31:19.:31:25.

is very reminiscent of the relationship between synagogues,

:31:26.:31:29.

compilations, and their rabbis, or churches and their priests. There is

:31:30.:31:32.

something about the chemistry of the relationship, very often. I do think

:31:33.:31:37.

ultimately they ought to be able to decide, but it has to be fairly and

:31:38.:31:40.

due process and I think all of that needs testing out. Do you think it

:31:41.:31:49.

has changed? Is it also about some Tory MPs being out of touch, or not

:31:50.:32:00.

in line with their Tory activists? We fell into disrepute over the

:32:01.:32:07.

expenses issue. And there is no, no on outside interest. I am in a

:32:08.:32:09.

privileged position being the chairman of the committee that

:32:10.:32:12.

relates closely to local interest, but if you get a policy on a free

:32:13.:32:18.

vote which in fact on same-sex marriage, I came to my policy

:32:19.:32:26.

decision on my own back, but if I had voted any other way I would have

:32:27.:32:30.

had even greater problems in the constituency. What are you going to

:32:31.:32:35.

do? I am not good to give a running commentary, I will not let the

:32:36.:32:42.

machinations of the party... I am keeping an open mind. If I felt I

:32:43.:32:48.

had done anything wrong, there is a question of my standing in the

:32:49.:32:50.

community, allegations have been made about me I have not been able

:32:51.:32:53.

to repeat and I take a long-term view on that.

:32:54.:33:02.

Never mind being deselected, and for that matter never mind losing your

:33:03.:33:06.

seat at the next election, suddenly it seems many MPs just will not

:33:07.:33:10.

bother with the whole thing at all in 2015. A number of politicians

:33:11.:33:14.

from all parties have decided to stand down. Focus has been placed on

:33:15.:33:17.

a number of Conservative women who have announced that recently. Giles

:33:18.:33:21.

has been talking to two MPs about why being an MP can be harder than

:33:22.:33:28.

you think. Many MPs are planning their every election campaign for

:33:29.:33:32.

2015 but a noticeable number, particularly women recently, have

:33:33.:33:34.

decided not to bother. They are standing down. What might

:33:35.:33:40.

make an MP feel it is not worth it? Charlotte Leslie will fight 2015 she

:33:41.:33:44.

has found it tough from the marathon of trying to win in 2010. They

:33:45.:33:49.

scrape you of the tarmac, and dump you in this machine of Parliament.

:33:50.:33:55.

If you had to devise somewhere to make people who worked in a place

:33:56.:33:58.

out of touch you couldn't do much better. On what other planet would

:33:59.:34:06.

you have promotions, but there is openly not based on merit but other

:34:07.:34:08.

considerations, on what planet would want to be able to bully the

:34:09.:34:13.

workforce in the way the expectation is the whips do it? It is just mad.

:34:14.:34:19.

For those who want to get out into their constituency being tied to

:34:20.:34:23.

Westminster votes gets in the way. It is quite reasonable to wait for

:34:24.:34:27.

six hours in the chamber to make a speech, speak for six minutes, which

:34:28.:34:31.

changes absolutely nothing, and sometimes you do feel like a sheep

:34:32.:34:37.

going through the sheep dip. You don't feel very much more than a bit

:34:38.:34:43.

of lobby fodder. It is important we hold government to account regularly

:34:44.:34:47.

but do need to be here every week? Perhaps once a month we should have

:34:48.:34:50.

a week where we work in the constituency. There could be

:34:51.:34:55.

different ways to do it. Then you get back to your constituency at the

:34:56.:34:58.

last thing you want them to say is we never see her now she has gone to

:34:59.:35:03.

London. Thursday night, you hit the ground running, Friday, Saturday,

:35:04.:35:06.

Sunday you are out there in your constituency doing as much as

:35:07.:35:10.

possible. Monday comes around again and you are exhausted. It is not

:35:11.:35:15.

just be a new MP. For one who wants to leave after 14 years to be

:35:16.:35:19.

something else, being in opposition come be tricky. If you are in

:35:20.:35:24.

opposition it is much harder work to get changed so that makes a

:35:25.:35:29.

difference. But as an individual MP you can still do things in

:35:30.:35:35.

opposition, it is just a bit soul breaking when you find all the time

:35:36.:35:39.

everything you want to do gets slapped down. The expenses row is

:35:40.:35:44.

still toxic, even for those never involved. The public can be harder

:35:45.:35:50.

and harsher, and told one MP's wife was backed up. Recess is often busy

:35:51.:35:54.

but seen as holiday, but MPs do get it. I can see why people don't like

:35:55.:36:01.

politicians, and I am one. We all go on television and we think it is

:36:02.:36:03.

clever not to answer the question when you're sitting at home wanting

:36:04.:36:07.

them to answer the question. She is admitting things many others have

:36:08.:36:15.

said to me that she is using a voice to do what she came in to do what

:36:16.:36:18.

she came into view, change things. You can and should be in a position

:36:19.:36:22.

to change things and you can't replace that. That is the most

:36:23.:36:25.

fantastic thing, I wouldn't change it for the world. That is a prize

:36:26.:36:33.

worth having. Paul Goodman is still with us and we

:36:34.:36:37.

have been joined by Laura Sandys is who has announced she is not

:36:38.:36:40.

standing in the next election will stop I don't know how much you want

:36:41.:36:44.

to say about why you are not standing.

:36:45.:36:49.

It is to do with family issues. No big decision is 100% right. It is

:36:50.:36:56.

with regret. But we move onwards and upwards. As Charlotte right? The way

:36:57.:37:00.

she described it at the beginning, lobby fodder, who works in an

:37:01.:37:06.

environment where whips are borrowing you and telling you what

:37:07.:37:10.

to do other promotions are not done on merit, who would do it --

:37:11.:37:16.

bullying you? There needs to be a review of how Parliament works. It

:37:17.:37:21.

needs the Institute of government to look at this. How do we ensure

:37:22.:37:25.

people who come in mid-career, if you come in very young it becomes

:37:26.:37:28.

normality. If you come and much older it becomes a fourth career. We

:37:29.:37:33.

have got a bit of a crisis with certainly people in mid-career who

:37:34.:37:37.

are finding just the place a little bit odd, a little bit lacking we

:37:38.:37:44.

need to look up what gives a professional environment, what is a

:37:45.:37:48.

professional way to achieve things stop do you not think it is run

:37:49.:37:54.

professionally? It has evolved over many years but doesn't accommodate

:37:55.:37:58.

well those people who have come from different careers. If we are trying

:37:59.:38:01.

to ensure there is that diversity in Parliament, we have got to ensure it

:38:02.:38:05.

is an environment that actually we all get satisfaction from.

:38:06.:38:11.

There were major changes to the way Parliament is one, it is clearly not

:38:12.:38:14.

enough. I think a possible explanation is

:38:15.:38:18.

the commons are still stuck between two worlds. It is done between the

:38:19.:38:22.

old world where you are an elected representative, you got your money

:38:23.:38:26.

from the unions or private business, and the New World where you are a

:38:27.:38:30.

professional politician who is paid by the taxpayer and is a

:38:31.:38:34.

constituency worker. To my mind the Commons still hasn't really sorted

:38:35.:38:36.

out the tension between those two roles and you have got MPs who are

:38:37.:38:42.

there expected to be constituency workers, but at the same time they

:38:43.:38:46.

are sometimes expected to be ministers. Maybe that is something

:38:47.:38:49.

that sooner or later Parliament has got to sort out. They I distinguish

:38:50.:38:55.

between the issue of being a professional politician which I

:38:56.:38:58.

think Parliament sits extremely well, and being somebody who hasn't

:38:59.:39:04.

had a profession outside. In some ways the difference in what I would

:39:05.:39:10.

call normality is quite extreme. But they are other people politicians

:39:11.:39:15.

say they want to attract. What about the question of women? It clearly

:39:16.:39:19.

isn't just a question of women, although there are these

:39:20.:39:22.

conservative women who are new MPs in 2010, disappointing for the

:39:23.:39:28.

Conservative party they are standing down. Is there a particular issue

:39:29.:39:33.

for women? I am a member of the House of Lords, I was a Lib Dem

:39:34.:39:37.

working peer, I am now a crossbencher because no peak until

:39:38.:39:41.

you what to do so it is preferable. -- nobody can tell you what to do. I

:39:42.:39:48.

think when you listen, actually listen, it sounds a bit like a bear

:39:49.:39:55.

pit. Maybe the people who started right at the beginning, professional

:39:56.:40:00.

politicians, you get in you and to it. Particularly women coming in in

:40:01.:40:03.

mid-career, they think what is going on here? I don't see this as women's

:40:04.:40:14.

issues. I have been a little bit amazed by the media obsession with

:40:15.:40:17.

his woman business because if you look at the people stepping down

:40:18.:40:23.

none of us have got children, we are not facing their source of family

:40:24.:40:28.

issues. We expect our environment to respect ourselves. I think we will

:40:29.:40:34.

know more at the end of the Parliament when we see who is going.

:40:35.:40:38.

It is worth pointing out in a little about women, there are at least

:40:39.:40:42.

three conservative male MPs going early, James Arbuthnot is going, he

:40:43.:40:49.

could stay. Charles Hendry, they are all in their 50s who are going. That

:40:50.:40:53.

is telling you something about what is happening in the Commons. I

:40:54.:40:56.

didn't like the change to the professional politician model, it

:40:57.:41:01.

wasn't for me, which is why I went. Undoubtedly I think in a row about

:41:02.:41:05.

the deselection is, and in the issues we are discussing, you are

:41:06.:41:09.

seeing in the background is the question about what it is members of

:41:10.:41:13.

Parliament should be. One of the MPs said to me it is fine if you have

:41:14.:41:17.

got an issue to Champion, if you come in as a backbencher and within

:41:18.:41:22.

months you can concentrate on something to make your name, for

:41:23.:41:27.

example. Is that key? It is key for some people. Others come and they

:41:28.:41:31.

very much want to make their way up the ladder, the junior ministers, or

:41:32.:41:36.

ministers. The way Parliament is working is that sort of person is

:41:37.:41:39.

going to go through the system quicker, they need to come in and

:41:40.:41:43.

leave faster stop your Nokia to have so many voices of experience who can

:41:44.:41:49.

talk about what has gone before and what you can learn from the past.

:41:50.:41:54.

Later today Laura our guests along with several other Conservative MPs

:41:55.:41:58.

from the conservative modernisers group will publish a mini manifesto

:41:59.:42:01.

about business and the environment stop what is it all about? We have

:42:02.:42:07.

been surprised about this coming from the outside, government seems

:42:08.:42:12.

to be obsessed with GDP. Topline sales. There is no work, no mention

:42:13.:42:16.

even in the corporate plan of profit. What we are doing is looking

:42:17.:42:24.

at growing the economy, but not necessarily ensuring it is

:42:25.:42:28.

competitive. We are launching this manifesto. What we are looking for

:42:29.:42:33.

is to get profitability, more high profile within government, resource

:42:34.:42:36.

productivity, we are obsessed with Labour productivity. We should be

:42:37.:42:41.

looking... Labour productivity is down. We should be bearing down on

:42:42.:42:48.

the inputs manufacturing, steel, inputs and resources we are putting

:42:49.:42:51.

into manufacturing, rather than this obsession with productivity. We want

:42:52.:42:58.

people in work. We must increase our competitiveness. The idea is to make

:42:59.:43:03.

this happen? We want a new business sector, remade in Britain,

:43:04.:43:07.

recycling, turbo-charging that whole area. We also want to ensure we have

:43:08.:43:15.

got waste as a concept needs to move from death row which is a negative

:43:16.:43:30.

department -- Defra, and get more out of less. And the green agenda?

:43:31.:43:38.

Making sure we don't use more than we need to. Getting some spin off

:43:39.:43:44.

businesses as a result. Is this the Tory modernisers fight, the answer

:43:45.:43:52.

to comments? It is a recasting of the low carbon, green economy. We

:43:53.:43:57.

have always been determined to save the Green economy is about improving

:43:58.:44:03.

bottom-line figures. What we don't believe in is GDP, and

:44:04.:44:09.

old-fashioned, 1970s, the British Leyland, is really the way to judge

:44:10.:44:12.

our economy. We need to be competitive and efficient. Are you

:44:13.:44:18.

challenging climate change sceptics in your party? That is a different

:44:19.:44:24.

issue to this report. It is key people develop policy of the back of

:44:25.:44:29.

evidence for stop and it happens that 90% of scientists believe in

:44:30.:44:33.

man-made climate change. I am certainly not the expert that will

:44:34.:44:36.

question them. A few in my body think they know climate science

:44:37.:44:51.

better than the 98% of scientists. In Should pubs in England and Wales

:44:52.:44:55.

be allowed to open extra late during the football World Cup this summer?

:44:56.:44:59.

Last week the Home Office decided against issuing blanket permission,

:45:00.:45:02.

saying that it doesn't count as an exceptional, one-off event. But

:45:03.:45:04.

yesterday David Cameron reversed that decision and there's now going

:45:05.:45:08.

to be a fresh consultation. In a moment we'll debate the issue. First

:45:09.:45:11.

though, here's what members of the public thought about the Home

:45:12.:45:18.

Office's original decision. People want to sit in the bar and

:45:19.:45:23.

spent time with their friends and family and watch the football. You

:45:24.:45:27.

don't get the same atmosphere watching it at home. A couple of

:45:28.:45:31.

jars and watch it with your mates. People aren't going to go out on the

:45:32.:45:36.

streets and wrecked things. On the government side, the economy, pubs

:45:37.:45:41.

need all the income they can get. It will be a massive blow because we

:45:42.:45:52.

will lose a lot of revenue. We've been joined by Brigid Simmons from

:45:53.:45:55.

the Beer and Pub Association, and Gloria Elliot from the Noise

:45:56.:45:59.

Abatement Society. Why shouldn't these decisions be

:46:00.:46:02.

taken locally, surely in some places it would be appropriate for some

:46:03.:46:08.

pubs to open late and some not? Absolutely. There is the temporary

:46:09.:46:14.

event notice which every single pub and licensed premises in England and

:46:15.:46:20.

Wales can extend -- applied to to extend their hours. I don't know

:46:21.:46:26.

what the fuss is about because if they apply now there is plenty of

:46:27.:46:29.

time to get the extension and the council would have enough time to

:46:30.:46:34.

think if it is appropriate or not. They know their local pub better

:46:35.:46:39.

than anyone. I you signed up to that? The cost to each pub is ?25.

:46:40.:46:49.

We are still closing 26 pubs a week. We have had help from the Prime

:46:50.:46:53.

Minister on beer duty and I hope we get more help this year. We need to

:46:54.:46:58.

support the pubs. People can apply for temporary notices. But on the

:46:59.:47:05.

14th of June, England against Italy does not start until 11pm when the

:47:06.:47:10.

pubs are closing. What do you say to that? They have got to think about

:47:11.:47:17.

the residents living close by, many of which are not football fans and

:47:18.:47:20.

have to go to work on the Monday morning. The foot wall is lovely,

:47:21.:47:26.

everyone is looking forward to it, the Italian match. You just don't

:47:27.:47:31.

want the pubs to be open? Yes, I shall be there at my local pub

:47:32.:47:35.

because it is an exciting match. But the point is, if there is not soft

:47:36.:47:42.

touch management in place taking care of the residents as well so the

:47:43.:47:49.

right are given the extension, not the badly managed pubs. It is to

:47:50.:47:54.

protect everybody. Why should there be some kind of national, central

:47:55.:47:59.

blanket guidance? It does seem excessive. That is the law, if you

:48:00.:48:06.

give national extension you have to give it to all premises. We actually

:48:07.:48:12.

issue noise control guidance and we have issued in local conjunct -- in

:48:13.:48:20.

conjunction with the Local Government Association and the

:48:21.:48:24.

police, guidance to make sure pubs are well managed during the World

:48:25.:48:27.

Cup. If we don't allow it to be watched in pubs, people will watch

:48:28.:48:31.

bigger screens set up by local authorities and that is much more

:48:32.:48:37.

difficult to control. They will buy supermarket alcohol and they won't

:48:38.:48:40.

eat food. Food sales during the Diamond Jubilee and the royal

:48:41.:48:44.

wedding went up, more than beer sales. I can see the profitability

:48:45.:48:52.

from the pub's point of view and that is a lot of money that will be

:48:53.:48:56.

deprived from pubs who are struggling? I don't think there

:48:57.:49:02.

should be a national decision, it should be a local decision. If local

:49:03.:49:06.

authorities decide to put up a big-screen dash and I take the point

:49:07.:49:12.

that it can cause disruption and have unruly people around, but you

:49:13.:49:20.

can have unruly people around pubs. We know the World Cup comes round.

:49:21.:49:31.

It is not a one off is it? It is not a one off, we should have done this

:49:32.:49:35.

for the Olympics, we didn't. Tourette's did not come to central

:49:36.:49:42.

London as a result. -- tourists. We need to support an industry that is

:49:43.:49:48.

struggling. This is one good way of doing it and we will work as cloaks

:49:49.:49:52.

Lee as we can with the Home Office, police and local authorities to make

:49:53.:49:57.

sure it is properly controlled and people are properly controlled.

:49:58.:50:08.

Yesterday, the Environment Secretary was called to the House of Commons

:50:09.:50:13.

to answer questions about the government's response to the

:50:14.:50:16.

flooding in Somerset. Here are some highlights. Recent Met Office

:50:17.:50:21.

figures showed Somerset received more rainfall than it normally would

:50:22.:50:28.

have received over an entire winter. The high tides experienced in

:50:29.:50:32.

January and February exacerbated the situation by preventing water from

:50:33.:50:35.

flowing out to sea resulting in rivers overtopping their banks and

:50:36.:50:42.

flooding the surrounding land. Emergency services and Environment

:50:43.:50:47.

Agency staff deserve our thanks. Despite these efforts it is clear

:50:48.:50:51.

the residents in Somerset have been badly let down. When the water first

:50:52.:50:57.

rose it took too long to provide the pumps and other assistance they

:50:58.:51:01.

needed. We have seen meeting after meeting but little coherence to the

:51:02.:51:05.

government's strategy for dealing with this crisis. We have had

:51:06.:51:12.

nothing but help from the Secretary of State. COBRA has done a great job

:51:13.:51:24.

and I am very grateful to the Secretary of State. As I stood in

:51:25.:51:29.

Burrowbridge yesterday morning with the river again breaching the banks,

:51:30.:51:36.

the residents of Burrowbridge, I had to say, expressed relief to me the

:51:37.:51:39.

Prime Minister committed in this House on Wednesday to the river is

:51:40.:51:46.

being dredged. But I had to say to the Secretary of State, there was

:51:47.:51:50.

some cynicism about whether this would happen in practice.

:51:51.:51:59.

This morning the head of the Environment Agency for England again

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warned that his organisation's budget can't be stretched to protect

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every single coastal area at risk of flooding. So should we abandon flood

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defences in some areas? We're joined from Dundee by Professor Rob Duck

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who's an expert on flooding, and in our studio is the Somerset MP Tessa

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Munt. Rob Duck, the chairman of the

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Environment Agency says we need to decide whether to protect town or

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country because we cannot protect both? Unfortunately we cannot

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protect everywhere and we will have two sacrifice some land. Which land

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would you sacrifice? We have reclaimed land from the sea over

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centuries. We have got to look at what we have used it for, how we

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have and bank debt, drained it and so on. That is land the sea would

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formerly have inundated and is no longer able to do so. We have to

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look at perhaps returning some of the land back to the sea in order

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that our cities can be properly protected. Do you accept that, Tessa

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Munt? I don't. There has to be a decision made? One has to protect

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life and property, but you cannot write off the whole of rural

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communities in this country. I have been asking every year for some

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recognition to be given to the value of the land. Of course in my area we

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are in a flood plain and everybody accepts there will be some flooding

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for a time. It is a matter of getting the water off the land, they

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need to take protective measures. When the Environment Agency came

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along on Boxing Day last year sorry, the year before last, he was trying

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to protect his nursery business in my constituency and put a physical

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barrier up out of the silt that had built up in the drain he lives a

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James Hunt two, he was served with a notice for court action for trying

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to protect his business. It is madness. Tessa Munt is saying we

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cannot abandon our communities in the way you are implying? I would

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not wish to abandon rural communities but we have to look at

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some of the land we have claimed from the sea in the past and

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consider returning these two marine inundation. One of the problems is,

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we have reduced the capacity of water, or the capacity for water

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that comes in on the in flowing tide, and there isn't sufficient

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volume for it to flow into. If that coincides with high run-off from the

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lands, a storm surge coinciding with that, that is when we have problems.

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Our efforts have to be concentrated in the cities. That is going to

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happen again and again, so sitting there and saying we cannot let it

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happen is not realistic. It is costing ?100,000 a week to pump off

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the water from farmland, is it affordable? It is, we have to take

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reasonable steps to protect everybody. Why don't we build town

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houses or houses on stilts as there have been in Bury Saint Edmunds and

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other places, so your stuff that is movable like your car, is at a low

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level so you don't lose your carpets and your furniture every time. What

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about returning some of the reclaimed land? It is not realistic.

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We should be able to give some protection. In Highbridge there are

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perfectly good sluice gates. We have to make sure when the tide is coming

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in it does not come in and hit, and we can pump over the top. Is it

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affordable? We don't know the implication of future weather

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patterns, so we don't know if it is affordable. I am not sure whether we

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can tell that. We may have to make some hard choices. I have a problem

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with the tone of this debate that is going on. We have been talking

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particularly about the Somerset Levels and this is land reclaimed

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hundreds of years ago, not stuff reclaimed two weeks ago, it is

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ridiculous. They are established communities. There has been

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something wrong with the tone in the way people have been talking about

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that. The Environment Agency and others who have not even sympathetic

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reflection on what is happening to those people. Are you unhappy with

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the government's response? I am happy something is being done. Is it

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too late? Of course it is, we had flooding in April. So you can't be

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very happy? It is better to have something and nothing isn't it? This

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is a catchment area that has several rivers and I accept the fact some of

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them are canals that our dog, but there are natural rivers and

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problems that have not been solved for up to 15 years. How much would

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it cost to defend our coastal areas if this weather will continue in

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years to come and possibly get worse? I don't think I can give you

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a sensible answer. It would cost way beyond anything we could possibly

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afford. We have to be selective, we have got to make choices. I should

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also add, we know the Somerset Levels have been drained since the

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13th and 14th century, but we have been claiming land in other areas

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from the sea since the Second World War. So there are areas where we

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have been doing it comparatively recently. We are building on the

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flood Lane, why? Thank you very much.

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There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. The

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question was, from 9.00pm this evening London will be hit by a

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48-hour tube strike. But what has London Mayor, Boris Johnson offered

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the union boss, Bow Crow, if calls off the strike and sits down with

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him for discussions? Answer is A. I may be wrong. I would have thought

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the deputy mayor ideas not a bad one. I don't know what the answer

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is. It is a Pina Colaba, you are right. That is all for today. Thanks

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to my guests. Andrew and I will be back tomorrow. Good buy.

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