Browse content similar to 04/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welcome to the Daily Politics. Today's top story, Labour discuss Ed | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
Miliband's plans for changing the party 's links with trade unions. As | :00:47. | :00:54. | |
a contributing jewel report into vogue as to vote rigging. | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
Limited budgets mean not all parts of the coast can be protected from | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
flooding. We will debate whether we should let us see back in? | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
A Conservative MP deselected by his constituency party, we will discuss | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
why Tory activists appear to be flexing their muscles. Should pubs | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
in England and Wales big event blanket permission to open late | :01:21. | :01:21. | |
during the World Cup? All that in the next hour, and with | :01:22. | :01:33. | |
us for the whole programme today is the independent crossbench peer | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
Julie Newberg who until 2011 was a member of the Liberal Democrats. | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
There is kick-off with the tube strike in London due to start at 9pm | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
this evening and last until Thursday. This morning the leader of | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
the train drivers union Bob Crow called the London radio station LBC | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
which was broadcasting a phone in show with Boris Johnson. | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
All we want is an opportunity to talk about the tube. We have not | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
condemned to score points, we want an opportunity to speak to the Mayor | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
of London about the problems. It is good of you to call on, Bob, and I | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
respect your position and the fact you are the leader of a very | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
important union in our country and our city. I have got to tell you, | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
the best way to engage with us and with me is for you guys, the RMT, to | :02:29. | :02:38. | |
call off the strike and then I will be more than happy, of course, to | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
sit down and talk with you. They were talking across the | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
airwaves, shame they haven't managed to sit down and talk together in | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
recent weeks to stop the strike action going ahead as Boris Johnson | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
would like. Should the laws surrounding strike action be | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
changed? It probably should be, in just the proportion of the papers | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
who are the Tube workers themselves voting for strike action. | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
I defend peoples right to withdraw their labour, there are a few | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
exceptions and I would say the fire service that can strike, they | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
probably shouldn't be able to. But clearly the Tube workers should be | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
allowed to strike if they decide to do so. It must be 50% or more, | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
because otherwise it seems the minority is holding Londoners to | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
ransom. It is incredibly irritating, and it does have a terrible impact | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
on the economy and in my view we should be clear if they are going to | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
do it they have got to have a good reason, they should sit and before | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
this. Should the law be changed? I would have thought so. What about | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
turnout in local and European elections because there will be | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
trade union members who have decided to go out on strike and say, MPs, | :03:57. | :04:03. | |
MEPs, sometimes elected with far lower thresholds than 50%? The | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
differences when you're voting in an election, there is an argument that | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
says people should have two vote, it should be compulsory. It seems to me | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
where it is a specific issue which is different from a general election | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
or a European election, the union is actually deciding to withdraw | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
labour, so the people who are part of union have to make a decision, | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
each of them throwing in a vote, I think. It is slightly different from | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
general elections. What about talks between the two sides? Why can't | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
there be some sort of mediation where they meet and compromise? | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
There has been some mediation but it all fell apart. There should be a | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
lot more talking before you get to the moment where they say we are | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
going on strike. It feels to me, and I thought the exchange between Bob | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
Crow and Boris Johnson suggested that, they haven't been meeting | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
regularly, why not? Time for our quiz and as we have | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
been discussing, from 9pm this evening London's Underground will be | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
hit by a 48-hour strike. What has Boris Johnson offered Bob Crow in an | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
effort to get him to sit down for talks? Is it a pina colada? | :05:23. | :05:30. | |
A pay rise for all drivers. The job of deputy mayor, or a pair of | :05:31. | :05:43. | |
Bermuda shorts? Plenty of time to think about it. | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
Today could be a historic one for Labour as the party discusses | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
changes to this link to the unions with Ed Miliband looking to scrap | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
the voting system that propelled him to power three and a half years ago. | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
A number of changes are being considered by Labour's governing | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
body, the National Executive including abolishing the electoral | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
college method and electing party leaders. Under the current system | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
the electoral college gives unions, party members and MPs one third of | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
the vote each. But Ed Miliband wants to change this to a simple one | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
member, one vote. Trade union members will have two become an | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
affiliated member of the party, in order to vote in leadership | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
elections by opting in and paying ?3 per year. Labour will hold a one-off | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
conference next month to approve the new rules, but it will not result in | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
any changes to the way policies are voted for at the party's annual | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
conference. The proposals are not just a political gamble for Mr | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
Miliband but a financial one as well. It is estimated the party | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
could face a drop in funding of ?5 million when the funding changes are | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
fully implemented within five years. Ahead of the meeting a confidential | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
internal Labour Party report into allegations of vote rigging in | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
Falkirk was leaked to the Guardian. Our political correspondent has all | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
the detail of this and he joins us now. | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
First of all, let's have a look at these reforms. Labour making big | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
player of the fact they are reforming the party, one member, one | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
vote. Does the influence of the unions diminished under these or is | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
it smoke and mirrors? It depends who you ask. What began | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
with a bar room brawl involving Eric Joyce, the MP for Falkirk, almost | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
two years ago, has rolled on ever since then through Joyce saying he | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
would stand down as a member of the Labour Party, to the whole row | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
around for quick and allegations of vote rigging, in this confidential | :07:53. | :08:02. | |
report. At the heart of it is the central question about the role of | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
the trade unions. The party made the case that by changing the leadership | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
election rules to one member, one vote, it means people are certain | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
people, will not have multiple votes and therefore ordinary party | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
members, whether they have joined directly or through an affiliated | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
union, will have their individual say. Others say that because of the | :08:21. | :08:27. | |
potential for Labour to be starved of funding because of these changes, | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
they would be more reliant on the unions to go knocking on their door | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
and say can you throw some pennies in our part one did not elections, | :08:35. | :08:42. | |
round -- in our pot when general elections, round? | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
--, and investigator went to Falkirk to | :08:47. | :08:58. | |
try to find out the situation. Members were pressurised into | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
competing direct debit forms, members signatures were forged. | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
There is evidence they were forged on application forms or direct | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
debits, they make the case that ultimately members were recruited in | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
an attempt to manipulate party processes, that is essential, | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
overarching conclusion. On one occasion a batch of 40 obligation | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
forms was received by the party with a letter for Len McCluskey stating | :09:27. | :09:35. | |
Tom Watson, senior Labour MP who happened to employ Karie Murphy, | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
saying they are OK. Labour and the Unite General secretaries agree | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
these will be processed. You get a sense of just how involved those | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
senior figures from the union and the Labour Party are involved in | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
this whole process around Falkirk. The real concern from Labour that | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
there are practices going on that simply were unacceptable, machine | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
politics as Ed Miliband called it. Unite all of it, they say the whole | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
thing is a stitch up, and misrepresentation of Karie Murphy, | :10:06. | :10:14. | |
Stephen Deans, they are furious. With this is the former Labour Home | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
Secretary Alan Johnson. I am sure he is equally across all the detail. | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
Let's take the details of the reform. It is about Labour breaking | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
its links with the unions. Is it not the case unions will still have 50% | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
of votes at the party conference, nothing changes there, and union | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
members could outvote party members when it comes to voting for the | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
leader, so what has changed? Who said this was about breaking the | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
link with the unions? I have been arguing for 20 years, ever since | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
John Smith introduced the first tranche of reforms that that | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
relationship which is precious and important and we should never lose, | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
would be much healthier if members made a conscious decision, union | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
members of affiliated unions, made a conscious decision to pay the | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
political levy, but as the system at the moment, and opt out system, and | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
take that one step further and make another conscious decision to the | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
associate members of the Labour Party is really further even than I | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
thought we would go 20 years ago. An affiliated member will now have the | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
same rights in terms of the leadership election. We allow | :11:30. | :11:37. | |
students in, pensioners. 2.7 million people we are talking about. The way | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
we detail what you pay to be a Labour Party member is a matter for | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
us. It would be ridiculous and I didn't argue this other time if you | :11:48. | :11:55. | |
turned ?3 50 affiliate into a ?45 membership fee. I hope they go on to | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
beat members but these are cleaners, hospital porters, train drivers. | :12:00. | :12:08. | |
These working people. It is absolutely important to have them as | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
an associate member and it was never about breaking the links with the | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
unions, it was about strengthening them. | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
In your mind reducing the amount of influence union leaders have over | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
their members and therefore as a Labour Party policy. Only in the | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
sense that I call them ghost in the machines, levy paying members are | :12:30. | :12:32. | |
pushed around as numbers, 1 million year, 1000 there. And their views, | :12:33. | :12:40. | |
as I found out, are very different to what activists tell you their | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
views are. That wasn't reflected. The important point about this is | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
each of these associate members will be attached to a constituency party. | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
It will be the Labour Party that controls the ballots for | :12:56. | :12:57. | |
leadership, the Labour Party involves them in our local | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
campaigns. Not a trade union general secretary who with all June respect | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
in this day and age cannot decide how that this thousands of members | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
then. -- with all due respect. Would it have been healthier to break that | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
influence the bit more by stopping the big unions having so much say on | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
forming policy at conferences? And Miliband said last July he will | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
start an opt in system, rather than opt out. That has ramifications for | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
the vote of confidence because these people are signing to be levied | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
payers and the vote of confidence will depend on a number of people | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
who make that decision, but our policy for a long time is no longer | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
15 minute debates about Middle East by the seaside, it is in a national | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
policy forum where trade unions have a third of the vote and that is very | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
healthy. Except we were just hearing there from our reporter and Len | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
McCluskey, if you take the financial hit which is going to come in | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
somewhere, you cannot predict by how much, the Labour Party and the | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
Labour leadership will be more reliant on the funds from the | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
political funds, from the unions and union leaders themselves, they will | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
control the amount they give later the -- Labour. The principle has to | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
come first. How much to think will be lost? Lots of people would | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
contribute to the Labour Party on the basis of a much healthier | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
relationship, one member, one vote. We cannot be sure of that, but I am | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
proud of my leader for taking the principal decision. Because of the | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
hit you are going to take, and maybe over time you will recoup some of | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
that lost money if people are attracted to the idea of opting in | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
as Labour Party members, but what about the reliance on the unions who | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
will still have a large amount of money and they will control it? I | :14:57. | :15:04. | |
hope the trade unions contribute to the Labour Party, they formed it. | :15:05. | :15:06. | |
Not like hedge funds which which money into the Tory party and got a | :15:07. | :15:16. | |
tax cut. It is not about making it look as if it is some kind of | :15:17. | :15:26. | |
transaction. Do you think this is going to transform, as Alan Johnson | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
and Ed Miliband and others feel it is this relationship between the | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
unions and party members and labour? We know each other well. You started | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
this 20 years ago and I think this is another step on a road which the | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
Labour Party has found difficult to take. Which is one member, one | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
vote. I think there will be a financial hits, but I don't know how | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
much. The contribution people who opt in will have to make will be | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
larger than ?3 50. Some of that will be tricky for a lot of people. Do I | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
think it is a good idea to go down this path, yes I do? I was part of | :16:09. | :16:16. | |
the Labour Party as a student. I do think this is improvement. The | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
problem is I don't think it goes far enough, even now. Let's look at | :16:22. | :16:30. | |
Falkirk. It has been leaked. The party refused to publish it last | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
September. There was no evidence to suggest rules were breached. This | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
morning that report has been leaked by the Guardian and we know members | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
were recruited without their knowledge and signatures were forged | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
on Labour Party application forms. They published it online, I have not | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
even read it. We heard it from our reporter, and it is listed here, | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
members were recruited without their knowledge. Shouldn't people be | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
disciplined? The police looked into this and dropped it. As far as the | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
Labour Party's procedures are over Falkirk, I will leave it to them. We | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
are going onto a by-election. If Falkirk have acted as an accidental | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
catalyst for these changes, well done Falkirk. What about the trust | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
of people into candidate selection? It does nothing to improve that. | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
It's completely undermines it. If you have serious allegations and | :17:36. | :17:37. | |
conclusions that have been found in this report? The reason why the | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
report was not published is that people gave evidence to the Labour | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
Party in confidence. And if people give and are told it is | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
confidential, first you will get to the truth quicker and you don't let | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
them down by publishing it. Do you think they should have published it? | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
No, I don't. As a non-expert on Falkirk, looking at how small the | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
story is to date, certain newspapers tried to blow this up into the crime | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
of the century, it was dealt with and has gone on to mean huge changes | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
to the party. I did try to read it this morning. I have to say it is | :18:23. | :18:30. | |
ethical to read. -- difficult to read. The issue about the forgery of | :18:31. | :18:38. | |
signatures is serious. I'm not saying other parties don't have | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
that, but it is serious and you have to take it seriously. There is this | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
strange thing, I think it happens in the three main party -- parties, you | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
can receive membership as a present. Why you would want membership of a | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
political party as a gift, I don't know. But it looks like people have | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
been pressured into doing something they don't want to do. Let's talk | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
now to the Conservative Party Chairman, Grant Shapps. | :19:11. | :19:20. | |
Labour is finally saying it has a healthy relationship with the | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
unions, you have one member, one vote. All the things the Tories have | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
been asking for, you must want to congratulate Alan Johnson and his | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
colleagues? The unions will be handed a lot more power, the union | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
barons anyway, because they will have a political fund they will be | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
able to give cash to Ed Miliband two when he is struggling and carry on | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
buying their policies and their candidates, as happened in that | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
Falkirk report. It is much more serious than you think, Alan by the | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
way and involves 40 other seats as well. It means they can carry on | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
selecting the leader. For the viewers watching this programme, Ed | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
Miliband is, who said he was going to stand up to this stuff cannot | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
stand up to those union barons, and there's no chance he will stand up | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
for you, me and people watching this programme when it comes to cutting | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
the deficit or getting welfare and immigration under control. Families | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
will find his weak approach to this will affect their future. Are you | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
worried that Labour could become a mass membership party as your | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
numbers dwindle? Our numbers are not dwindling. What are they now? | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
174,000. We don't ordinarily let people who join for ?1 vote. I hear | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
Alan Johnson saying that the Labour Party does. In the end it is right | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
to have this opting in system. So many different things, but one of | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
the key recommendations is that unions don't automatically sign | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
people up for labour associations as happens at the moment. People should | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
opt in instead. Lots of union members, a councillor in my area, is | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
a union member and he is a conservative. As long as people get | :21:09. | :21:10. | |
the choice of which political party they send those affiliation fees to. | :21:11. | :21:19. | |
This will hand the unions even more power and Ed Miliband has failed on | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
the test he set himself to take on those union barons and is handing | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
them more control. For ordinary people, the unions are in control of | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
the Labour Party and that means Ed Miliband is looking out for their | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
bosses are not for you. Let's talk about a man who served as UKIP's, | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
wealth spokesman for a year and is the former leader of a kidnapping | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
gang in Pakistan, as was revealed by BBC Newsnight last night. He was a | :21:46. | :21:53. | |
member of the Conservative Party in 2008 and left and joined UKIP. I | :21:54. | :22:02. | |
should just add, he attempted to rejoin the party last week after | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
having been the UKIP spokesman. Because he is a spokesman for | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
another party we rejected that application. We have a letter | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
welcoming him rejoining the Conservative Party from the 30th of | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
January. " I am delighted you have taken the decision to help turn | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
Britain around by becoming a member of the party". Why did he receive a | :22:27. | :22:34. | |
welcoming letter? We reserve the right to scrutinise the application | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
and before that person is fully accepted we can take a decision on | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
their membership will stop he is not now a member of the Conservative | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
Party. He has had a letter from the lead Deputy Chairman, so this will | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
not be automatic saying, I am just dropping you a brief e-mail saying I | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
am delighted you have rejoined the Conservative Party. If somebody goes | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
online and joins the party, which I hope many of your viewers will | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
today. Well done, you have got your plug in. You go into an automatic | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
system and you will receive some letters. But reserve the right to | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
scrutinise anyone's membership and he is not a member of the party as a | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
result of that. And in fact, anyone who is associated with another | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
party, we would always look very carefully, particularly when someone | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
has been speaking as a spokesman this and else, in this case UKIP. | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
When he was a member of the Conservative Party, it was shortly | :23:43. | :23:44. | |
after he was convicted and jailed, was that a mistake? Anyone is | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
welcome to join the party ordinarily unless we have reason to | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
investigate. Then they would become a member and that would be it. What | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
has happened more recently in the last week, there has been reason to | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
be concerned about this particular member and we have reacted as we | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
described. We were talking earlier in the programme about strike rules | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
bearing in mind there will be a chip strike this evening. Do you think | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
those rules should be changed? For commuters, of which I am one on a | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
Wednesday morning, to wake up and not be able to use the tube as you | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
should be able to is ridiculous. Should the rules be changed? I am | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
very sympathetic to the idea we need to do more. Given the discussion we | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
have just had, if Labour and the leader came out now and were | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
absolutely clear they condemn this strike it does not help anyone, let | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
alone people... Do you think strike rules should be changed? I am | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
sympathetic to look at these issues, the first thing is to stop | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
the strike that will start tomorrow. One thing that would be very helpful | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
and put a bit of distance between Labour and the unions, is if they | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
would come out and condemn this strike. Thank you very much. | :25:17. | :25:23. | |
Yesterday, the long serving Conservative MP was officially | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
deselected by his constituency party in Suffolk. He is the second | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
conservative in the last week to be told by local party Minden -- | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
members they will not be a candidate next year. He spoke to a BBC | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
reporter after the vote. I think it is right for the whole membership of | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
my party to vote whether I would be the candidate or not. It was a knife | :25:46. | :25:53. | |
edge result and I respect the outcome and I will give my full | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
support to my successor. After 30 years as an MP, it should not end | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
this way? You take part in democracy and you don't know how elections | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
will come out, sometimes you win them, sometimes you lose them. We've | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
been joined by Paul Goodman who is editor of the Conservative Home | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
website and used to be a Conservative MP and by the | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
Conservative MP Anne McIntosh, who was deselected by her local | :26:18. | :26:19. | |
constituency party last week. Welcome to the Daily Politics. Why | :26:20. | :26:28. | |
were you deselected? I am obviously disappointed at the outcome of the | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
ballot which does seem to be the result of some ungentlemanly | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
behaviour which has brought discredit to the Conservative Party. | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
I am delighted this is going to be looked into so I don't wish to | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
comment at this stage. When you say it is being looked into? By the | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
highest ranks of the Conservative Party. Is this about a fallout | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
between you and a person in your constituency? So it would appear. | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
Can I make a general comment about why it is so important to have | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
Conservative associations? It exists under the Conservative constitution | :27:06. | :27:13. | |
to elect councillors, MPs and MEPs and after the election to support | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
them. My association is a very new one. The seat was only reconstituted | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
on a boundary change in 2010. I was told in 2009 by the preferred | :27:27. | :27:37. | |
candidate, who has - and now it has become public knowledge who the | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
preferred candidate is, that has now happened. The whole party voted you | :27:43. | :27:55. | |
out? I was voted out of the constituency of 11,000 voters. But | :27:56. | :28:02. | |
within the association? I don't want to pre-empt the results of an | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
enquiry and draw too many parallels but we had a very favourable enquiry | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
in June last year, supported by the board of the party. If the results | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
of that enquiry become more public knowledge, we might have seen and | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
more different run of the ballot. I have had no personal disagreement | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
with the overwhelming majority of the members of my association, the | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
wider public. I had huge messages of support from them. Why has she been | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
deselected? Is the association flexing their muscles? I don't know | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
about that specific case because I have been in Yorkshire. But we do | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
see a trend affecting associations which sees more and more MPs being | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
treated as constituency workers. There is also a general fall in | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
their status which has happened since the expenses scandal. Without | :29:02. | :29:10. | |
making any comment, that is feeding through generally into the body | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
politic. I don't know what happened up there and I could not comment. | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
Tim Yeo said it was about policy issues. He was candid about his | :29:20. | :29:30. | |
stance on climate change... If that is the case, why wasn't Crispin | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
Blunt who was up in front of a reselection ballot in Reigate where | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
his sexuality was said to be the issue, why wasn't he deselect it? I | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
think with these cases, the member of Parliament and the association it | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
is a bit like a marriage. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it breaks | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
down. It is hard to generalise. Was it about policy in your case? I was | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
told immediately after the ballot, which was a great surprise to | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
everybody... Did you think you would come through? I think the party | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
expected me to come through and as I said, ungentlemanly behaviour which | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
I think the party has promised to look into. But it was a case I am | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
still on the candidate's list and I can apply for any seat. One way | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
forward would be to have an open primary and let the residents decide | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
who they want to go forward in this case. The important thing to whole | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
site off, it is not for the association for the number of -- | :30:37. | :30:45. | |
member of Parliament should meet. It is for the member of Parliament to | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
be elected and be a servant of the country, constituency and the | :30:51. | :31:06. | |
association. Clearly there is a right for association, I don't want | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
to speak about the specifics. There must be the possibility for | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
associations or constituency members if you like, of a particular party | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
to say we don't want you to carry on. It is a bit like a marriage. It | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
is very reminiscent of the relationship between synagogues, | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
compilations, and their rabbis, or churches and their priests. There is | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
something about the chemistry of the relationship, very often. I do think | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
ultimately they ought to be able to decide, but it has to be fairly and | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
due process and I think all of that needs testing out. Do you think it | :31:41. | :31:49. | |
has changed? Is it also about some Tory MPs being out of touch, or not | :31:50. | :32:00. | |
in line with their Tory activists? We fell into disrepute over the | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
expenses issue. And there is no, no on outside interest. I am in a | :32:08. | :32:09. | |
privileged position being the chairman of the committee that | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
relates closely to local interest, but if you get a policy on a free | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
vote which in fact on same-sex marriage, I came to my policy | :32:19. | :32:26. | |
decision on my own back, but if I had voted any other way I would have | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
had even greater problems in the constituency. What are you going to | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
do? I am not good to give a running commentary, I will not let the | :32:36. | :32:42. | |
machinations of the party... I am keeping an open mind. If I felt I | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
had done anything wrong, there is a question of my standing in the | :32:49. | :32:50. | |
community, allegations have been made about me I have not been able | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
to repeat and I take a long-term view on that. | :32:54. | :33:02. | |
Never mind being deselected, and for that matter never mind losing your | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
seat at the next election, suddenly it seems many MPs just will not | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
bother with the whole thing at all in 2015. A number of politicians | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
from all parties have decided to stand down. Focus has been placed on | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
a number of Conservative women who have announced that recently. Giles | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
has been talking to two MPs about why being an MP can be harder than | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
you think. Many MPs are planning their every election campaign for | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
2015 but a noticeable number, particularly women recently, have | :33:33. | :33:34. | |
decided not to bother. They are standing down. What might | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
make an MP feel it is not worth it? Charlotte Leslie will fight 2015 she | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
has found it tough from the marathon of trying to win in 2010. They | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
scrape you of the tarmac, and dump you in this machine of Parliament. | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
If you had to devise somewhere to make people who worked in a place | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
out of touch you couldn't do much better. On what other planet would | :33:59. | :34:06. | |
you have promotions, but there is openly not based on merit but other | :34:07. | :34:08. | |
considerations, on what planet would want to be able to bully the | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
workforce in the way the expectation is the whips do it? It is just mad. | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
For those who want to get out into their constituency being tied to | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
Westminster votes gets in the way. It is quite reasonable to wait for | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
six hours in the chamber to make a speech, speak for six minutes, which | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
changes absolutely nothing, and sometimes you do feel like a sheep | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
going through the sheep dip. You don't feel very much more than a bit | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
of lobby fodder. It is important we hold government to account regularly | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
but do need to be here every week? Perhaps once a month we should have | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
a week where we work in the constituency. There could be | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
different ways to do it. Then you get back to your constituency at the | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
last thing you want them to say is we never see her now she has gone to | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
London. Thursday night, you hit the ground running, Friday, Saturday, | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
Sunday you are out there in your constituency doing as much as | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
possible. Monday comes around again and you are exhausted. It is not | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
just be a new MP. For one who wants to leave after 14 years to be | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
something else, being in opposition come be tricky. If you are in | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
opposition it is much harder work to get changed so that makes a | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
difference. But as an individual MP you can still do things in | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
opposition, it is just a bit soul breaking when you find all the time | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
everything you want to do gets slapped down. The expenses row is | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
still toxic, even for those never involved. The public can be harder | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
and harsher, and told one MP's wife was backed up. Recess is often busy | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
but seen as holiday, but MPs do get it. I can see why people don't like | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
politicians, and I am one. We all go on television and we think it is | :36:02. | :36:03. | |
clever not to answer the question when you're sitting at home wanting | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
them to answer the question. She is admitting things many others have | :36:08. | :36:15. | |
said to me that she is using a voice to do what she came in to do what | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
she came into view, change things. You can and should be in a position | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
to change things and you can't replace that. That is the most | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
fantastic thing, I wouldn't change it for the world. That is a prize | :36:26. | :36:33. | |
worth having. Paul Goodman is still with us and we | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
have been joined by Laura Sandys is who has announced she is not | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
standing in the next election will stop I don't know how much you want | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
to say about why you are not standing. | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
It is to do with family issues. No big decision is 100% right. It is | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
with regret. But we move onwards and upwards. As Charlotte right? The way | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
she described it at the beginning, lobby fodder, who works in an | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
environment where whips are borrowing you and telling you what | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
to do other promotions are not done on merit, who would do it -- | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
bullying you? There needs to be a review of how Parliament works. It | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
needs the Institute of government to look at this. How do we ensure | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
people who come in mid-career, if you come in very young it becomes | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
normality. If you come and much older it becomes a fourth career. We | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
have got a bit of a crisis with certainly people in mid-career who | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
are finding just the place a little bit odd, a little bit lacking we | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
need to look up what gives a professional environment, what is a | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
professional way to achieve things stop do you not think it is run | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
professionally? It has evolved over many years but doesn't accommodate | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
well those people who have come from different careers. If we are trying | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
to ensure there is that diversity in Parliament, we have got to ensure it | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
is an environment that actually we all get satisfaction from. | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
There were major changes to the way Parliament is one, it is clearly not | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
enough. I think a possible explanation is | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
the commons are still stuck between two worlds. It is done between the | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
old world where you are an elected representative, you got your money | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
from the unions or private business, and the New World where you are a | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
professional politician who is paid by the taxpayer and is a | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
constituency worker. To my mind the Commons still hasn't really sorted | :38:35. | :38:36. | |
out the tension between those two roles and you have got MPs who are | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
there expected to be constituency workers, but at the same time they | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
are sometimes expected to be ministers. Maybe that is something | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
that sooner or later Parliament has got to sort out. They I distinguish | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
between the issue of being a professional politician which I | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
think Parliament sits extremely well, and being somebody who hasn't | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
had a profession outside. In some ways the difference in what I would | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
call normality is quite extreme. But they are other people politicians | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
say they want to attract. What about the question of women? It clearly | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
isn't just a question of women, although there are these | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
conservative women who are new MPs in 2010, disappointing for the | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
Conservative party they are standing down. Is there a particular issue | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
for women? I am a member of the House of Lords, I was a Lib Dem | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
working peer, I am now a crossbencher because no peak until | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
you what to do so it is preferable. -- nobody can tell you what to do. I | :39:42. | :39:48. | |
think when you listen, actually listen, it sounds a bit like a bear | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
pit. Maybe the people who started right at the beginning, professional | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
politicians, you get in you and to it. Particularly women coming in in | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
mid-career, they think what is going on here? I don't see this as women's | :40:04. | :40:14. | |
issues. I have been a little bit amazed by the media obsession with | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
his woman business because if you look at the people stepping down | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
none of us have got children, we are not facing their source of family | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
issues. We expect our environment to respect ourselves. I think we will | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
know more at the end of the Parliament when we see who is going. | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
It is worth pointing out in a little about women, there are at least | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
three conservative male MPs going early, James Arbuthnot is going, he | :40:43. | :40:49. | |
could stay. Charles Hendry, they are all in their 50s who are going. That | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
is telling you something about what is happening in the Commons. I | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
didn't like the change to the professional politician model, it | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
wasn't for me, which is why I went. Undoubtedly I think in a row about | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
the deselection is, and in the issues we are discussing, you are | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
seeing in the background is the question about what it is members of | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
Parliament should be. One of the MPs said to me it is fine if you have | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
got an issue to Champion, if you come in as a backbencher and within | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
months you can concentrate on something to make your name, for | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
example. Is that key? It is key for some people. Others come and they | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
very much want to make their way up the ladder, the junior ministers, or | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
ministers. The way Parliament is working is that sort of person is | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
going to go through the system quicker, they need to come in and | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
leave faster stop your Nokia to have so many voices of experience who can | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
talk about what has gone before and what you can learn from the past. | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
Later today Laura our guests along with several other Conservative MPs | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
from the conservative modernisers group will publish a mini manifesto | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
about business and the environment stop what is it all about? We have | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
been surprised about this coming from the outside, government seems | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
to be obsessed with GDP. Topline sales. There is no work, no mention | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
even in the corporate plan of profit. What we are doing is looking | :42:17. | :42:24. | |
at growing the economy, but not necessarily ensuring it is | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
competitive. We are launching this manifesto. What we are looking for | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
is to get profitability, more high profile within government, resource | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
productivity, we are obsessed with Labour productivity. We should be | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
looking... Labour productivity is down. We should be bearing down on | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
the inputs manufacturing, steel, inputs and resources we are putting | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
into manufacturing, rather than this obsession with productivity. We want | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
people in work. We must increase our competitiveness. The idea is to make | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
this happen? We want a new business sector, remade in Britain, | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
recycling, turbo-charging that whole area. We also want to ensure we have | :43:08. | :43:15. | |
got waste as a concept needs to move from death row which is a negative | :43:16. | :43:30. | |
department -- Defra, and get more out of less. And the green agenda? | :43:31. | :43:38. | |
Making sure we don't use more than we need to. Getting some spin off | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
businesses as a result. Is this the Tory modernisers fight, the answer | :43:45. | :43:52. | |
to comments? It is a recasting of the low carbon, green economy. We | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
have always been determined to save the Green economy is about improving | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
bottom-line figures. What we don't believe in is GDP, and | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
old-fashioned, 1970s, the British Leyland, is really the way to judge | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
our economy. We need to be competitive and efficient. Are you | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
challenging climate change sceptics in your party? That is a different | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
issue to this report. It is key people develop policy of the back of | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
evidence for stop and it happens that 90% of scientists believe in | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
man-made climate change. I am certainly not the expert that will | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
question them. A few in my body think they know climate science | :44:37. | :44:51. | |
better than the 98% of scientists. In Should pubs in England and Wales | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
be allowed to open extra late during the football World Cup this summer? | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
Last week the Home Office decided against issuing blanket permission, | :45:00. | :45:02. | |
saying that it doesn't count as an exceptional, one-off event. But | :45:03. | :45:04. | |
yesterday David Cameron reversed that decision and there's now going | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
to be a fresh consultation. In a moment we'll debate the issue. First | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
though, here's what members of the public thought about the Home | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
Office's original decision. People want to sit in the bar and | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
spent time with their friends and family and watch the football. You | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
don't get the same atmosphere watching it at home. A couple of | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
jars and watch it with your mates. People aren't going to go out on the | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
streets and wrecked things. On the government side, the economy, pubs | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
need all the income they can get. It will be a massive blow because we | :45:42. | :45:52. | |
will lose a lot of revenue. We've been joined by Brigid Simmons from | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
the Beer and Pub Association, and Gloria Elliot from the Noise | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
Abatement Society. Why shouldn't these decisions be | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
taken locally, surely in some places it would be appropriate for some | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
pubs to open late and some not? Absolutely. There is the temporary | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
event notice which every single pub and licensed premises in England and | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
Wales can extend -- applied to to extend their hours. I don't know | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
what the fuss is about because if they apply now there is plenty of | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
time to get the extension and the council would have enough time to | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
think if it is appropriate or not. They know their local pub better | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
than anyone. I you signed up to that? The cost to each pub is ?25. | :46:40. | :46:49. | |
We are still closing 26 pubs a week. We have had help from the Prime | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
Minister on beer duty and I hope we get more help this year. We need to | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
support the pubs. People can apply for temporary notices. But on the | :46:59. | :47:05. | |
14th of June, England against Italy does not start until 11pm when the | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
pubs are closing. What do you say to that? They have got to think about | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
the residents living close by, many of which are not football fans and | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
have to go to work on the Monday morning. The foot wall is lovely, | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
everyone is looking forward to it, the Italian match. You just don't | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
want the pubs to be open? Yes, I shall be there at my local pub | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
because it is an exciting match. But the point is, if there is not soft | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
touch management in place taking care of the residents as well so the | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
right are given the extension, not the badly managed pubs. It is to | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
protect everybody. Why should there be some kind of national, central | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
blanket guidance? It does seem excessive. That is the law, if you | :48:00. | :48:06. | |
give national extension you have to give it to all premises. We actually | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
issue noise control guidance and we have issued in local conjunct -- in | :48:13. | :48:20. | |
conjunction with the Local Government Association and the | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
police, guidance to make sure pubs are well managed during the World | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
Cup. If we don't allow it to be watched in pubs, people will watch | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
bigger screens set up by local authorities and that is much more | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
difficult to control. They will buy supermarket alcohol and they won't | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
eat food. Food sales during the Diamond Jubilee and the royal | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
wedding went up, more than beer sales. I can see the profitability | :48:45. | :48:52. | |
from the pub's point of view and that is a lot of money that will be | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
deprived from pubs who are struggling? I don't think there | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
should be a national decision, it should be a local decision. If local | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
authorities decide to put up a big-screen dash and I take the point | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
that it can cause disruption and have unruly people around, but you | :49:13. | :49:20. | |
can have unruly people around pubs. We know the World Cup comes round. | :49:21. | :49:31. | |
It is not a one off is it? It is not a one off, we should have done this | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
for the Olympics, we didn't. Tourette's did not come to central | :49:36. | :49:42. | |
London as a result. -- tourists. We need to support an industry that is | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
struggling. This is one good way of doing it and we will work as cloaks | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
Lee as we can with the Home Office, police and local authorities to make | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
sure it is properly controlled and people are properly controlled. | :49:58. | :50:08. | |
Yesterday, the Environment Secretary was called to the House of Commons | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
to answer questions about the government's response to the | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
flooding in Somerset. Here are some highlights. Recent Met Office | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
figures showed Somerset received more rainfall than it normally would | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
have received over an entire winter. The high tides experienced in | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
January and February exacerbated the situation by preventing water from | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
flowing out to sea resulting in rivers overtopping their banks and | :50:36. | :50:42. | |
flooding the surrounding land. Emergency services and Environment | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
Agency staff deserve our thanks. Despite these efforts it is clear | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
the residents in Somerset have been badly let down. When the water first | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
rose it took too long to provide the pumps and other assistance they | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
needed. We have seen meeting after meeting but little coherence to the | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
government's strategy for dealing with this crisis. We have had | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
nothing but help from the Secretary of State. COBRA has done a great job | :51:13. | :51:24. | |
and I am very grateful to the Secretary of State. As I stood in | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
Burrowbridge yesterday morning with the river again breaching the banks, | :51:30. | :51:36. | |
the residents of Burrowbridge, I had to say, expressed relief to me the | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
Prime Minister committed in this House on Wednesday to the river is | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
being dredged. But I had to say to the Secretary of State, there was | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
some cynicism about whether this would happen in practice. | :51:51. | :51:59. | |
This morning the head of the Environment Agency for England again | :52:00. | :52:01. | |
warned that his organisation's budget can't be stretched to protect | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
every single coastal area at risk of flooding. So should we abandon flood | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
defences in some areas? We're joined from Dundee by Professor Rob Duck | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
who's an expert on flooding, and in our studio is the Somerset MP Tessa | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
Munt. Rob Duck, the chairman of the | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
Environment Agency says we need to decide whether to protect town or | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
country because we cannot protect both? Unfortunately we cannot | :52:29. | :52:35. | |
protect everywhere and we will have two sacrifice some land. Which land | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
would you sacrifice? We have reclaimed land from the sea over | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
centuries. We have got to look at what we have used it for, how we | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
have and bank debt, drained it and so on. That is land the sea would | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
formerly have inundated and is no longer able to do so. We have to | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
look at perhaps returning some of the land back to the sea in order | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
that our cities can be properly protected. Do you accept that, Tessa | :53:06. | :53:15. | |
Munt? I don't. There has to be a decision made? One has to protect | :53:16. | :53:22. | |
life and property, but you cannot write off the whole of rural | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
communities in this country. I have been asking every year for some | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
recognition to be given to the value of the land. Of course in my area we | :53:30. | :53:36. | |
are in a flood plain and everybody accepts there will be some flooding | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
for a time. It is a matter of getting the water off the land, they | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
need to take protective measures. When the Environment Agency came | :53:45. | :53:53. | |
along on Boxing Day last year sorry, the year before last, he was trying | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
to protect his nursery business in my constituency and put a physical | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
barrier up out of the silt that had built up in the drain he lives a | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
James Hunt two, he was served with a notice for court action for trying | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
to protect his business. It is madness. Tessa Munt is saying we | :54:13. | :54:19. | |
cannot abandon our communities in the way you are implying? I would | :54:20. | :54:31. | |
not wish to abandon rural communities but we have to look at | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
some of the land we have claimed from the sea in the past and | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
consider returning these two marine inundation. One of the problems is, | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
we have reduced the capacity of water, or the capacity for water | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
that comes in on the in flowing tide, and there isn't sufficient | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
volume for it to flow into. If that coincides with high run-off from the | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
lands, a storm surge coinciding with that, that is when we have problems. | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
Our efforts have to be concentrated in the cities. That is going to | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
happen again and again, so sitting there and saying we cannot let it | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
happen is not realistic. It is costing ?100,000 a week to pump off | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
the water from farmland, is it affordable? It is, we have to take | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
reasonable steps to protect everybody. Why don't we build town | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
houses or houses on stilts as there have been in Bury Saint Edmunds and | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
other places, so your stuff that is movable like your car, is at a low | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
level so you don't lose your carpets and your furniture every time. What | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
about returning some of the reclaimed land? It is not realistic. | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
We should be able to give some protection. In Highbridge there are | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
perfectly good sluice gates. We have to make sure when the tide is coming | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
in it does not come in and hit, and we can pump over the top. Is it | :56:07. | :56:15. | |
affordable? We don't know the implication of future weather | :56:16. | :56:17. | |
patterns, so we don't know if it is affordable. I am not sure whether we | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
can tell that. We may have to make some hard choices. I have a problem | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
with the tone of this debate that is going on. We have been talking | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
particularly about the Somerset Levels and this is land reclaimed | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
hundreds of years ago, not stuff reclaimed two weeks ago, it is | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
ridiculous. They are established communities. There has been | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
something wrong with the tone in the way people have been talking about | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
that. The Environment Agency and others who have not even sympathetic | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
reflection on what is happening to those people. Are you unhappy with | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
the government's response? I am happy something is being done. Is it | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
too late? Of course it is, we had flooding in April. So you can't be | :57:09. | :57:16. | |
very happy? It is better to have something and nothing isn't it? This | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
is a catchment area that has several rivers and I accept the fact some of | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
them are canals that our dog, but there are natural rivers and | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
problems that have not been solved for up to 15 years. How much would | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
it cost to defend our coastal areas if this weather will continue in | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
years to come and possibly get worse? I don't think I can give you | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
a sensible answer. It would cost way beyond anything we could possibly | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
afford. We have to be selective, we have got to make choices. I should | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
also add, we know the Somerset Levels have been drained since the | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
13th and 14th century, but we have been claiming land in other areas | :58:03. | :58:04. | |
from the sea since the Second World War. So there are areas where we | :58:05. | :58:10. | |
have been doing it comparatively recently. We are building on the | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
flood Lane, why? Thank you very much. | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz. The | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
question was, from 9.00pm this evening London will be hit by a | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
48-hour tube strike. But what has London Mayor, Boris Johnson offered | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
the union boss, Bow Crow, if calls off the strike and sits down with | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
him for discussions? Answer is A. I may be wrong. I would have thought | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
the deputy mayor ideas not a bad one. I don't know what the answer | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
is. It is a Pina Colaba, you are right. That is all for today. Thanks | :58:51. | :58:58. | |
to my guests. Andrew and I will be back tomorrow. Good buy. | :58:59. | :59:01. |