07/02/2014 Daily Politics


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Afternoon folk, welcome to the Daily Politics. Floodwaters continue to


rise and so does the anger of people, as houses and fields have


been under water now for weeks. Are they paying the price for


Government and agencies too slow to act?


To clear your -- declare your love for Scotland the Prime Minister


tells the tens of millions of Brits without a vote in September's


Independence Referendum. Do the people of England, Wales and


Northern Ireland share the Prime Minister's passion?


A senior US diplomat in Ukraine apologises following an apparent


four letter outburst about the European Union. Just undiplomatic


language or signs of a deeper rift? And to infinity and beyond. Are the


billions ploughed into the European Space Agency money well spent?


So all that in the next hour, with us for the next half hour and firmly


on planet earth is the journalist and broadcaster Anne McElvoy, fresh


from her skiing last night. I am happy to be in a warm studio. Your


legs are intact? Just about. We sent her to hemle help stead, we couldn't


afford Sochi. The National Union of Teachers have announced a one day


strike in England and Wales over pay and conditions. It will be held on


the 26th mar. The other big teacher union the NASUWT is considering


whether to support the action. We are joined by the General Secretary


of the NUT Christine Blower. Welcome to the programme. Good afternoon.


You have been in talks with Michael Gove to try and avoid this strike


but it is a three year running dispute, is that right? We haven't


been in talks with Michael gov Gove, we had a meeting with imon October,


with civil servants or October 14th when we were offered Taub, since


then there have been no meetings and no talks. We would very much like


there to be talks, in order to resolve this dispute, because


clearly it has been going on much too long, and obviously things are


not good for teacher, so we would like to be involved in the talks at


the moment there maybe the offer only so talks for the unions but as


Francis O'Grady said, you, you resolve a dispute with the parties


to the dispute, so we need talks with Michael Gove, with ourselves


and the NASUWT. At the moment they are not on offer. It is about


performance-related pay. Am I not right in thinking that is a mer of


principle, you are against that? It is not all about that, it is about


workload and pension, the fact is many aspects of teacher's pay are


performance-related, but we are opposed to the linking of the new


appraisal scheme with the fact national pay arrangements have been


demolished. The fact 74% of teachers say morale has declined suggest they


are not happy either. So it is important that Michael Gove gets


round the table with ourself, and talks with us to resolve these


disputes. Are you in a position to negotiate over performance-related


pay? We are in a position to negotiation over what pay should


look like, as I say to you, the fact that teachers already have to pass


an induction year, in order to stay in the profession, so there is an


element of performance in there. What we cannot have is teachers' pay


linked to individual student performance, and the reason reason


we can't have that is there is no interhagsal evidence suggesting that


improves things for individual students. So there is no point in


having that -- international. What does the Education Secretary have to


do get you to call off the strike, at least temporarily? Well, of


course we have already called off strike action. When we went into the


initial phase of talks on October 14 th with civil servant, we didn't go


on strike, on November 27th. We thought talks were forthcoming. What


the Secretary of State has to do is engage in serious talks with us


about pay, pensions and conditions of service, but also, he has to not


make any damaging changes to teachers' conditions in the


forthcoming STRV report. We are prepared to stand down strike


action, but I think the Secretary of State needs to know that teachers'


morale is poor at the moment and they need to see quite a lot of


changes. If Mr Gove was here, is this, this strike, what he would


call the behaviour of the blob? I don't know what he would, there are


a lot of people included in the blob. Are you in the blob? I think


you are. Sometimes I am, sometimes I am not. I am actually very pleased


to be associated with a lot of people who are in the blob, but I


have to say, it is not the case that in other jurisdictions that


Education Ministers go round insulting people who are really


engaged and enthusiastic about education. Professors of education,


leaders of teachers' unions and so on. Thank you, we will keep an eye


and see what happens. Now we did obviously have to speak


to an Education Minister but none was available. They probably got


lost in the blob. I suspect that Mr Gove, I mean, he thinks, he clearly


thinks the NUT is part of the problem, not the solution. And isn't


that interesting -- interested in negotiating. He thinks they are tout


stop everything he wants to do, as they attempted to stop much of what


Mr Blair wants to be He think think are the enemy. Also he think, this


is a difficult question, he doesn't think they really, intend to prevail


any way, they throw up strikes which are hugely inconvenient for parents,


they disrupt children's education but they tend not to get what they


want. I think he thinks they won't this time. All this talk about pay


and performance pay, British teacher, teachers in England because


we are in different situations in Scotland and Wales, they are pretty


well paid, and they have got better paid, rightly, in my view, I should


say, in the last ten years, and if you look at the OECD, you break down


the amount of pay for time spent actually teaching in the classroom,


Britain, England I keep saying Britain, I am into the next debate


about Scotland already, England scores well, comes in about fourth


place in the international league tables so it is not as if there is a


major pay problem, one understands while unions will try to get the


best deal for their member, but if they link it to resisting bigger


changes to reforms they won't have a lot of purchase on the Secretary of


State. Let us see what happens. Now on the


eve of the Winter Olympics in Sochi, the opening ceremony is tonight,


David Cameron has been at the Olympic Park in London, the scene of


our wonderful opening Olympics in the summer of 2012. He was making a


speech designed to encourage those on these islands who are not


Scottish to let the Scots know they don't want a divorce. The haven't


use chosen because at the Olympics we all compete as Brits and the


Prime Minister has been invoking the spirit of Team GB to argue the case


for the union. This is what he has had to say.


This is our country, and we built it together. Brick by brick. Scotland,


England, Wales, Northern Ireland. Brick by brick. This is our home,


and I could not bear to see it torn apart.


I love this country. I love the United Kingdom, and all it stands


for. And I will fight with everything I have to keep us


together. Passionate defence of the union from


the Prime Minister. No sooner had he finished than Alex Salmond gave his


response. This is it. The main thing is this a speech delivered from


London, telling people in England what to do, but arguing against


Scottish independence, instead of a debate that the Prime Minister must


do in Scotland, a debate with me, as First Minister of Scotland about the


pros an cons of his argument against independence. Well, that was the


First Minister saying things. We are joined by Rory Stewart. The Prime


Minister has been criticise for not delivering this speech in Scotland,


but this was a speech to the non-Scot, so I understand why he did


this in England. But at some sage he has to go to Scotland. At some


stage, she the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, he has to get


involved, if he wants to defend the union, he has to go there, and


defend it. Yes, the Prime Minister I think will be going to Scotland but


the main thing is the grass roots emotion of this whole thing. It is


about showing that the English, the Welsh, the Irish are committed to


Scotland, love Scotland, care about Scotland. Do they? What is the


evidence? I am hoping to gather thousands of people linking arms


along the forkeder. I would like a chain of lights and I would like do


you join us. Show affection for the union. We cover political


demonstrations. In what way in your view would the rest of the UK be


diminished if Scotland left? In almost every way, to lose a third of


your country. To loose Edinburgh, the Highlands, hundreds of years of


shared history will make us embarrassed in the face of the


world. You don't think it matters or you think the rest of the UK might


be better off if Scotland left? I am sure if the appeal is to economics


than motion, and it seems the Prime Minister was appealing to emotion,


Rory is talking about our sense of history, if you are a boring


economist like me and you want to crunch the number, I am certain it


would be in England's very narrow self-interest. Where is the evidence


for that? If you look at transfers from the relatively more affluent


English to the poorer Scot, the high levels of public spending, the


Barnett Formula, it is clouded by oil, and the price of oil going up


and down. It is not slightly clouded by oil revenue, it is almost exactly


matched by oil revenues. Yes, but the question is when do you measure


the oil revenues? The oil price goes up so much. Take oil at $100s a


barrel which is lower than now. You have to decide how much belongs to


the Scots. Under international law that is clear. It is about 90%. If


you look at the size of the public sector in England and certainly in


London and the south, comparing to that in Scotland, it is


substantially smaller in England, if you look at the... The public sector


in Scotland is no bigger than in the north-west or the North East It is


away beyond London and the south-east, so I think the English


would be Bert off. I am not sure narrow self-interest should be the


ace of trumps. Scotland could be better off. Being less depeb dent on


England than it is at the moment. More in control of their... What do


you say to that? In the end everything comes down to identity


and confidence. More serious economists than I could be, my sense


is it very difficult over 100, 200 years to think about what nation go,


a lot is to do with confidence, your commitment to your country. The US


doesn't sit round thinking we would be richer if we lost Texas or if a


few years. Or Alabama I think there is a divergence in political


culture, south and north of the border. I was looking at the figures


today, without Scotland the Labour Party would not have one a UK


general election between 1950 and 1997. They would not have won, they


would have won in 1997. That is not true. Your figures are wrong. Labour


won England in 199 -- 1966. I don't think they would have formed a


majority. They would have done. In 1966 they won England. We would have


had a Conservative majority Government, the majority of about 19


or so. How many Tory MPs are there in Scotland? One. It used to be


half. Things can change. What you have seen is a divergence. Scotland


wants a centre-left approach, and England generally leans to a centre


right approach. If you have divery gent view, perhaps splitting... We


have to let Rory in. One of the great channels is to get out of


conversation between politicians and with respect economist, it is


interest you said people linking arms along the border would be a


political statement, I think it is not really politics, this is the


whole identity of your nation. One of the things that is making me very


tructed at the moment, is -- troubled at the moment, is the sense


no up ins in Britain are prepared to come fourth the UK, in the US if


Texas wanted to separate I would imagine you would get ten million


people joining arms to hold the country together. I think there is


other than the Sunday herald, which has a small circulation there is not


a single paper coming out for independence in Scotland. They are


remaining neutral. Even come to a general election, the editorial


endorsement don't come until a couple of days before. This is the


whole future of the United Kingdom. It is very strange that, and this is


clever the Scottish Nationalists have done, made it seen as if it's a


party political issue. It is the whole of the United Kingdom. The


most important constitutional question for 400 years. It is


certainly true that it is more likely to get a Labour Government if


Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom, I mean there wouldn't have


been a Labour Government in 64, there would in 66. There probably


wouldn't have been a majority Labour Government in 2005, either. That bit


is true, as well. But you know, if you are a Republican sitting in


Washington, you would say without California and without New York, and


without new England and without Massachusetts we would have a


permanent Republican majority, but no American is going to say that.


The USA is much more dotted around. Some states will always vote


Democrat. Maybe London and the south-east should go independent. It


would be the Richard Prince in Europe! -- richest province. They


could be a rather different build-up. The distinction between


two different nations, two different nations, is that stark. It used to


be, certainly foremost the 20th century, the political culture of


Scotland and England were a light it. They were similar. In 1955, the


Tories got a majority of the vote in Scotland. It was only 50.1%, but it


was a majority. It is clear they have been going in separate


directions in recent decades. Absolutely. That is true, of


course, of parts of northern England and parts of other cities. We have


got to accept there are different national cultures. We are not


denying that. It is what makes the UK great. We have diversity. It also


would be mistake if people fantasised that Scotland leaving


would lead to a 1-party government. People hate 1-party governments.


That would last for a few years. He is just saying it would be less


likely, a Labour government. The you should not support the constitution


of your country to favour one party or another. My observation would be


that typically the English, over recent decades, are voting towards


the centre right. Typically, the Scots are voting to the centre-left.


That can cause tensions if one of them enormously outweighs the other.


When Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister, you got a lot of animist


in Scotland. The potentially build-up English animus if the


English Labour Party in winning elections. To somebody with her


Scottish name. I am a Borders girl! Do you think it matters to how


Scotland will vote if, if as Mr Cameron says, the English say, don't


go. It depends if you can put that across. It is a sense that this


really is something we all feel something together about, other than


nationalists. I noticed the Prime Minister's tone, which was almost a


Hugh Grant moment, this is a real sign of worry in number ten that


there is desiccated discussion, led by Alistair Darling, on fiscal pros


and cons, is not going home and doing the job. He has got the


difficult task. You can get up and say, as a Southerner and a


Conservative, please, don't go. People might say, why should I


listen to you? If you want to hold the UK together, you have to do


that. I am sceptical about linking arms. That is my idea of hell. The


borders are beautiful place! Yes, but we barely linked arms with our


own families. The idea is right, if not the device. The majority of the


rest of the UK once Scotland to stay. That figure gets higher in the


North of England. Absolutely. I am on the border. We would be


heartbroken. These are family, not just neighbours. We would like them


to remain that. We want to show that we think that by linking arms on the


19th of July. Fair enough. It was one of those moments when


politics was briefly put on hold: the death of the popular Labour MP


Paul Goggins at the start of the year. But normal service has been


resumed now that there's a by-election underway in his seat of


Wythenshawe and Sale East. Adam's been to the enormous housing estate


in the South of Manchester to see what's going on.


What is within sure famous for? At one point it was the largest housing


estate in the whole of Europe. At another, part of it was declared the


most deprived council ward in the whole of England and Wales. At yet


another, it is a place where pre-prime minister real David


Cameron had a photo opportunity ruined by a guy doing this.


Yes, that's the one. Now for this by-election the media has descended


again from all over the place. Is Britain going to get out of the


European Union? Any indication that UKIP can do in a Labour area would


be very interesting. What are your first impressions of Wythenshawe? It


is a beautiful place. Here is the source of the excitement, the UKIP


candidate is a local businessman. Last time, the party were beaten


into forth by the BNP. Now they are aiming much, much higher. Talk me


through the leaflet. We want to point out to voters that the Labour


front bench is made up of people who are paper millionaires or actual


millionaires. Most of them have never had a real job. They went to


use a real job. They went to use it -- University, got a job in the


research department of the party, got parachuted into a safe seat and


now they are on the front bench trying to claim they represent the


working class. Labour's candidate stresses his local roots, too.


Manchester City's season ticket is proof. They rest in -- reckon UKIP


aren't in the same league. We are talking about the A crisis at the


hospital. We are talking about the cost of living. We are talking about


the unfair council tax -- cuts. Cuts are on the minds of the month at the


toddler group. I'm a local mum. I value these services. I stood there


and I protest it and I'm a speech after speech at the council in


Manchester against Labour's cuts. Here, the Tory candidate is focusing


on dog mess and potholes. Your party is in turn down the street and you


are talking about these things. I believe if you get the small things


right, you can get the big things right. There is a national


responsibility as an MP. But I want to be a local champion. I want to


represent them on the issues they are talking to me about. If I am


honest, the streets of Wythenshawe are not in the grip of by-election


fever, but the result will tell us whether UKIP can take votes from


Labour. Until now, they have mainly been holding a gun to the heads of


the Tories. Sorry, couldn't resist seeing the picture one wartime.


Add us to indulge himself. And a full list of candidates


standing in the Wythenshaw Sale East by-election is on your screen


now. For analysts, the only thing of


interest is who comes second. We'll UKIP beat the Tories into second


place? Indeed. It is not just a question of whether they edge one


way or another, although that is important. Also commit to the manner


in which they do so. Does it look like this is part of an unstoppable


UKIP march the type that... And I would say, some Labour politicians


have woken up to the fact that UKIP is eating into their territory, too.


It doesn't look like being a problem for the Labour successor in


Wythenshawe. But it could impact on the next general election. But it


could be we have got too excited. The UKIP bubble could burst and we


will see them doing OK but it will not be the next big thing. We shall


see. Let's turn to the flooding because,


with more heavy rain overnight, the flood waters have continued to rise.


Let's get the latest now from Chris Eakin, who's in the Village of


Burrowbridge on the Somerset Levels. What is happening there?


Hello. This is one of the approach roads to the village, which is again


flooded by water. It has become a veritable island. It was one that


was put on for several days, one which became almost the heart of the


political battle as to whether enough was being doing -- done on


the Somerset Levels. A phenomenal 24/7 operation to build temporary


barriers around the village, but some of those were breached in the


night. It has cut off all but larger vehicles. Overall, the Somerset


Levels are struggling very hard to contain the flood water. Don't be


fooled by the respite in the weather. It takes about ten hours


from when it rains for the rivers. A very worrying weekend ahead.


Chris, we only see the pictures. It never seems to get better for the


people there. In all of these flooded areas and we see houses


either flooded or surrounded by water, have the people being


evacuated? Or are they still having to stay in situ? They are living


through this, living, essentially, in the middle of a lake. It is not


everybody. Until yesterday, the Environment Agency were saying that


around 40 properties had actually been flooded. So, a relatively small


number given the many miles of flooding. One of the problems is the


threat to people. If you take the village I was talking about, you are


right, because two days ago, the police helicopter was up in the air


like something from a Hollywood movie, instructing people to leave.


Around half of the village, about 300 people, decided to stay. In the


early hours of this morning, they went out in a dramatic fashion. Now


we estimate about 20 or 30 remain there. It is not just the fact you


are flooded. It is the stress of watching the water just get closer


and closer to your property and the temporary barriers trying to hold


back the force of nature and then eventually succumbing. We have


spoken to a lot of people the tree into yesterday, and not just house


owners but farmers, too. Over my left shoulder, a farmer was close to


tears, saying he would have to give it all up. Do people feel abandoned


by central government, by the powers that be down there? You have used


the exact words. A lot of people say they feel forgotten. At the moment,


we have got Chris Smith, Lord Smith, the Minister and Labour government


chair of the Environment Agency. He is at a wetland Centre a few miles


away. It is a very controlled environment, this meeting. The can


understand why. There is a huge amount of anger in the Somerset


Levels. If we have got time, I can show you why. Here are two rivers


that keep coming up in the House of Commons. This is the River Tone full


stop behind this grass corner is the River parrot. We are at the


confluence. The argument is... If you look behind me you can see the


flood plain isn't -- is lower than the river. The Environment Agency is


not dredging enough, that is the argument. They have at the limit


since the mid-90s. You will struggle to find a single person on the


Somerset Levels who agrees with that policy. They all say dredging should


be carried out. Chris, thank you very much with that. At the end


there, he explained what has been the difference between the experts


in London and the people who are also expert on the ground. Because


this is below the flood plain, it was originally dredged by Dutch


engineers all these years ago. They think, as they do in Holland, it has


to be costly dredged. But the Environment Agency and others in


London say no, no, we are not going to do that. That is the problem. It


was interesting to see that Mr Cameron will take all possible steps


and nothing should be ruled out. Frankly, I think he would love a


reversal of policy by the Environment Agency. Whether that is


forthcoming, we don't know. If people really feel they are at the


sharp end... It is becoming a national trauma. Mr Cameron doesn't


look like he was on it. Tony Lee, he was late. There is sent he is


playing catch up. I don't think Christmas will be the most popular


man in that part of the world. If you have one of these agencies, it


is unlikely you are the only person who has pushed it through. But you


are right to put your finger on this point about dredging. In the end,


this is something government is going to have to take a view on.


Simply saying, well, it is a funny quango who put it in somebody's


hands, that won't do. Now, if you're a Liberal Democrat


supporter, you're probably a fan of TV shows like this.


That was Red Dwarf, how we do know that Liberal Democrats like sci-fi?


Well YouGov have done the research, and Freddie Sayers who is part of


the YouGov, he joins us now. So there are distinct programmes that


Tory, Labour and Liberal Democrats like? There are. We did analysis


involving over 70,000 people, comparing their favourite TV


programmes with their political affiliation. Let us put the Tory


list up. The results, what a surprise Downton Abbey. They are on


stereotype there. Spook, that is modern. Hawaii 5-0. Why should


Tories like that? That is a good yes. What does that tell us, if you


were a Tory strategist, what is the lesson from that? As we will see


from the Labour list, the two main parties came up pretty much on


stereotype there. I mean... Coronation Street. For Labour.


Coronation Street and Peter Kay's Phoenix Nights.


Mad men, that is very interesting as a Labour top ten: They have been


full of it for years. Frazier. It is more unVarnished vision of Britain:


It is kind of slightly more Britain 21st century. There is something


kind of acceptia tinted about the Tory top ten list. -- sepia. There


we go. This is striking, the others were pretty much as you would


expect. But it is hard sometimes to know what a stereo typical Liberal


Democrat looks like. It is all over the place. Looking at the top one


hundred, there are two strong themes that come through, the first is this


bizarre connection to sci-fi. Or perhaps not! Fully 17 of the top 100


Liberal Democrat programmes are in some way sci-fi or future risty


while only two for the kith, so there is a sense of a kind of


alternative future, other worldly. They have got Have I Got News For


You. That shows they have a bit of a sense of humour. That is the second


important thing about that. They like futurarama. A cartoon. We count


that as sci-fi. What do you make of it? It is fascinating. I love the


Liberal Democrats are other worldly creatures from the planet X. They


have a sense of humour. Mock The Week, The IT Crowd. I wouldn't mind


staying in with the Liberal Democrat selection. The Tory one is very


backward looking, nothing wrong with a nice night in with Downton and a


large glass of something, but it is didn't things to be marvellous, when


Duchesses were Duchesses, Labour, the interesting thing you said, they


are picking apart at the early 21st century, trying to make sense of it.


And for reassurance they want to watch Coronation Street, and... To


show their roots. I think that is interesting. There is something


about all three parties that is nicely categorised in this. The


response we got. We published it a few days ago, the response from


Liberal Democrats has not been you are taking the mickey, there has


been a enthusiasm, saying yes we do like sci-fi, we are Liberal


Democrat, it is a a real better different future we want to believe


in, an alternative. Here is the question. Where did the Daily


Politics appear? It is not identified with any of the three


parties. Don't you think that is a triumph? We would not want to be on


any party list. Your recredentials have held up. It will be interesting


to see if the party managers get any campaigning line-out of that. That


is a fascinating poll. Now, it has just gone 12.30. Coming up our


regular look at what is going on in European politics, time to say


goodbye to Anne McElvoy. So, for the next half hour, we are


going to be focussing on Europe, we will be discussing EU relations with


the US UK, whether the eurozone crisis is over, and the role of the


European Space Agency. First, here is our guide to the latest from


Europe, in just 60 seconds. Italy's President was given a hard


time in the European Parliament in Strasbourg by Italian MEPs. Members


of the Northern League said where to stick the euro. Handbags of a


different sort. In addition to carry on luggage innow includes, a coat,


duty free and a handbag. Italy joined Britain in having some truly


dreadful weather. The river burst its banks causing


flooding in floor rans. Gasps as the Home Affairs commissioner described


European Union corruption as breathtaking. She put it at more


than 120 billion euros, or the size of the EU's entire annual budget,


and as attention turns to the Winter Olympics in Sochi, MEPs have been


having a gay old time debating relations with Russia, they want


Vladimir Putin to chill out and leave the Ukraine alone.


And with us for the next 30 minutes are var are Ludford and David


Martin. Let us start by talking about the flooding, because you have


for want the European Union to get involved with funds to help, tell me


what would you would like them to do There is an EU Solidarity Fund. We


have called op the UK Government to make an application for these funds,


because you know, what is not to like about getting some EU support


for our hard-pressed citizens and taxpayers? I am told that the, you


can only get help from this fund if the direct costs exceed three


billion euros or 0.6% of our gross national income, and that is, we are


not there. That is a national threshold. You can get money


regionally, and the, there are hoops to jump through, but the obviously


the thresholds are lower for a region. The government has declined


to do that, which is disappointing, and I hope that Owen Paterson will


change his mind on that, but we are encouraging local councils to apply


for another pot of EU money which commissioners confirm they could do,


so it seems to us why look a gift horse in the mouth? A lot of people


in the Somerset Levels will say that Europe has been part of the problem,


why they are in this mess, because a long with the Environment Agency


they have been anti-dredging, they have made it more difficult to


dredge. European rules have made it more difficult. What do you do with


the soil once you dredge it? They would like the money but they are


not feeling very warm. Firstly on the money issue, Labour in 2007 got


164 million out of the European Union for if floods we had in that


year. The reason we are not applying and the Liberals can't escape


responsibility for this, Danny Alexander is the Treasury minister


and it affects the rebate and we lose a third of that through the


rebate, so they are nervous about anything that detract trs the


rebate, but in terms of European responsibility, I don't think you


can blame Europe for the rain and floods. No, that is an aunt Sally,


that is not what I said. Will is a huge argument over dredging policy


and the EU has backed the line of the Environment Agency... I don't


think it prescribes to national and regional agencies how they might,


they don't micro manage in that way. What do you do with the soil? That


is a different matter. You have to do an environmental impact study. It


is the Environment Agency that decided this study, their view, that


dredging shouldn't happen, not the EU. Right. OK. Now, a year since the


Secretary of State -- a Secretary of State has apologise apologised after


using less than diplomatic language about the role of the EU.


Pro EU protestors have been demonstrating, for months after the


Ukrainian Government decided odd a deal with Russia, instead of


pursuing closer ties with the EU. Catherine Ashton has taken a


prominent role in attempting to diffuse the crisis and she met with


the Ukrainian President just yesterday. In the telephone


conversation between the Americans it seems to have leaked from a


Russian source, there is a surprise! The US diplomat appears unimpressed


with the EU's efforts So than great, I think to help glue this thing and


have the UN help glue it and (BLEEP) the EU. Exactly, I think we have to


do something to make it stick together, because you can be sure if


it does start to gain altitude, the Russians will be working behind the


scenes to try to torpedo it. Now the US has refused to confirm or deny


the authenticity of recording but a State Department spokeswoman said "I


didn't say it was inauthentic." Victoria Nuland has been in touch


with her EU counterparts to apologise for "The reported


remarks." So why would you apologise if you haven't done something, what


is your reaction? It is unfortunate wording, but obviously the Russians


are trying to divide the US and the EU. I think a bit of cursing,


sometimes happens between... Diplomacy Particularly in diplomacy,


I think what we need to do is to reinforce working together between


the EU and the US and to as the European Parliament has called for


this week, to offer a financial assistance dependent on political


dialogue, constitutional change, prospect of free election, to be


prepared to take targeted sanctions against the thugs of the regime and


the oligarchs who are supporting them, and to, you know, reinforce


the work of the citizens of the Ukraine, it is their choice to make,


we don't, we can't determine what they choose, but it does show that


the EU and its values of democracy and human rights have pulling power


and we should support that. ? We knew the Bush administration didn't


take the EU seriously as a diplomatic entity. This suggests


that maybe the Obama administration isn't that different. I think what


it suggests is while the EU is trying to bring the two sides


together the US is playing power politics, what she said was stuff


the EU in more graphic ways, but basically she was trying to say we


have to get some credit for any solution there, and that is a very


narrow minded attitude when we are facing major crisis. And a difficult


one too. Do the. U and the US do they have the same goals? The


Ukraine? I believe, so fundamentally, there is always, I


enmean, you know, no-one is pure in all of this, I suppose we all


political forces want to get some credit for, for a accident outcome,


but I think, you know, broadly we are on the same page, which is to


get peaceful political transition in Ukraine, to allow the Ukrainian


people to make their own choices and not be bullied by Russia and a very


unpleasant regime, and to, and to prevent violence and you know,


prospect of civil strife. I believe we are on the same page, but of


course there is a bit of rivalry. I think we are broadly, in terms of


sopping the violence, bringing the sides together. I think the US shows


an attitude they want to liberate the Ukraine, I don't think that is


the European Union role or the US's role. It is not Russia's job to


colonise it. Our job is to bring the two sides together. It is ANSA


asymmetric dispute. Even the US has only soft power to bring to this


whereas you get the impression that it wouldn't be, it is not beyond the


bounds of possibility that Mr Putin could use hard power? Yes, died. We


had a couple of Ukrainian MPs in the Parliament two weeks' ago and


firstly on the hard power against soft power they made the point, you


can never guarantee Russian tanks won't roll over the board, they said


they came with 16 billion in aid, they said their words was 600


thousand, that is a big difference. It is probably more than that. Would


you want to get into a bidding war? What the EU can offer, which the US


can't is the prospect of trade relationship, and eventually, who


know, we should not close the door on membership for Ukraine, that is


something which the US can't offer. It is Moscow's worst nightmare. It


shouldn't be. We are no doubt it is authentic. Are we agreed on that?


Yes Some predicted the the mice, the eurozone is still in one piece


though. So have the nay says been proved wrong or are there still


dangers ahead. Jo Coburn has been talking to MEPs in Strasbourg.


The financial storm that hit Europe in 2008 wreaked havoc in the region.


Even the most drastic action couldn't protect economies from the


continual batter of a European downturn.


A few years on, though, the euro is still here, and talk of a euro


crisis has subsided. So are there blue skies ahead? Opinion is


divided. The European Commission said last week that there are


encouraging signs that the economy is strengthening. Ittests growth in


eurozone of 1.1% for 2014, couple I paired toon estimated 0.4%


contraction for 2013. But unemployment in the euro area is


expected to remain a record 12.2% this year. Globalisation is bringing


a lot of opportunities and a lot of problems. If there's a chance, then


I think Europe has a lot of power to be a strong contender in the next


decades. But for some countries the storm clouds never went away. The


four crossed for Greece is still very gloomy. The opposition say the


Greek people are running out of patience.


I don't see any hope of these politicians. They don't see the


future and they don't believe in better days for our country. Key


figures in the EU believe the only solution is deep integration of the


euro zone to protect it from future turbulence. Common currency creates


stability, normally, and the common currency is almost -- also the main


engine for growth. I am optimistic about that. It doesn't mean that we


have already overcome this crisis. This crisis needs more reforms than


we have already done today. The main reforms we need is to establish an


economic and fiscal union because you need cooperation if you have a


single currency. There are still voices forecasting storms ahead. But


the idea of a single currency designed for countries with such


economic outlooks is fundamentally flawed. The plaster has been stuck


and they are not tackling the underlying problems. Member states


are different and they are different in the way they run their economies


are different in their cultures, and different in the expectations of


people. The European Union has a lot to offer Europeans and member


states. But I don't think economic unity is one of those things. Things


may be looking brighter, at least on the surface. But the long-range


forecast for Europe is still very uncertain. With the region still


vulnerable to any changes in the economic weather. Politicians here


hope the sun has finally set on the crisis that many thought could end


the whole European project. But they have yet to find agreement on the


best way to more prosperous times. And joining Sarah and David is


Patrick O'Flynn, who is director of communications for UKIP and a


candidate in the forthcoming European elections 2012, Nigel


Farage. We are entering the endgame of the


political project. This is going to come to the dramatic head over the


course of the next two years. Turned out to be wrong, didn't he? In time


frames, he is wrong, but I am certain he is right about the


conclusion. We need some basic economics. If you paid your economy


to Germany's, you are in trouble. We learn that with Britain and White


Wednesday, when we could do what we've should do, which is to


depreciate... Last I looked, the eurozone is still intact.


unemployment, living standards are falling, falling, after year,


throughout southern Europe. Eventually the people there will


decide that is announced assignable way of carrying on. -- and


unsustainable way of carrying on. But we have economic stagnation.


Now, particularly for the Club Med countries, the real serious problem


of deflation. It is absolutely true that we're not out of the woods.


Needs to be further reform. We are still stuck in the forest! A lot of


of work has been done to get us to this stage. What I find absurd from


UKIP is it is so unpatriotic to want the eurozone to implode. We rely on


it for economic links and 3 million jobs in the UK. George Osborne once


stability in the eurozone because he knows that it is no good to the UK.


In fact, UKIP is showing itself to be unpatriotic. That is ludicrous!


Let him respond. We would love the countries of Europe to be


successful. Do you watch the eurozone to break up? I say it


cannot work. If you are not on the same long-term productivity part as


Germany, you need to depreciate against its currency or becoming


activity gets sucked into Germany. One economist called it a giant


vampire squid if that. You are a Labour MEP. The eurozone before


summoning of its members, has in mass unemployment, of the kind we


have not seen this is the 1930s. Now we have this problem in the southern


countries of deflation. Once you get into deflation, the Japanese --


prices continue to fall. People think, I won't buy that today,


because it will be cheaper tomorrow. But to use a Scottish expression,


you never get out of the Hubble. We have muddled through the crisis. The


challenge now is to sort out the model. It is economic, not


financial. Exactly. The unemployment level is not acceptable. We have


called for a youth creation scheme to get the youth working at the


European level. We have suggested sharing borrowing costs so that


Greece and Italy can borrow better, get the economy moving again. Remove


some of the debt by sharing of pulling the cost. Germany is sharing


some of the benefits from the Europe with other member states. But you


could go back to the same problem of overindebtedness that created the


problem. What is needed as well is to tackle uncompetitive markets and


to have investment in productivity and Labour market reforms, like in


France. Francois Hollande has spoken about it but he is not delivering on


it. You pay over 40% of salary to employ somebody in France. That is a


huge deterrent. If you leave a generation unemployed, which we are


in danger of doing, you store up enormous problems for the whole of


the European Union. You are allied with France. The idea that some


countries are going to be able to compete in a locked rate with


Germany, long-term, is for the birds. It is never going to happen.


Germany has the scale, the brands, the infrastructure, the technical


education, the industrial relations all on its side. You have been to


Greece on holiday. It is siesta country. It is not in the culture.


They are not going to be able to do it. The economic activity is going


to be sucked away from them for good. Every year, they are going to


get smaller and poorer. Is the European government going to put


pressure on the central bank to become more activist? There are a


lot of calls that it starts to bomb Europe with the money. That they


need to put a lot more money into the system. It needs to go around


the major European banks and by their loan books and put cash onto


the ballot sheets of European banks so they can start to lend again. We


discussed this on Thursday. The parliament has argued strongly for


it. The British Conservatives voted against it but we argue for more


activist ECB. We need quantitative easing. We need shared borrowing


costs and lending. That would avoid the indebtedness that you talk


about. But only sharing under strict conditions. We have to move on. It


is an economic issue, not a financial one.


So the continent's still crippled by debt and struggling to emerge from


financial crisis, but European countries are still ploughing


billions of euros into the European Space Agency. Here's Adam with his


latest A-Z of Europe. Europe's Rover calls over the


surface of the red planet. Except it is really the Netherlands, where you


will find the research and technology centre of a European


Space Agency. It is where most of the agency's missions are planned


and built. This one takes off in 2018, and will have robotic design


by an engineer from Greece. Better not crash. It is costing 1 billion


euros. What would you say to your fellow Greeks who are struggling


financially to convince them this is worth investing in? This is


investing in research and development. It is creating jobs,


high-tech jobs for Europe. It crates intellectual capital. -- creates.


This is important for progress. Missions are launched in French


Guiana in South America. Astronauts get trained in Germany, and a new


lab has opened in the UK. Back in Holland, I'd done some fashionable


space where to meet one of the senior Brits here. -- I put on.


Here, they similar to the conditions up there. One of Mark's pet projects


is the resident probe, which later this year will land on a comet.


Hopefully. -- the Rosetta probe. I think it is a great example of


European cooperation. The badges come off at that point. When we are


sitting in a control room waiting for the results from one of our


missions, we are all European. It is great. Although, walking around this


place, there are no EU flags. That is because the agency is


independent. It is funded and run by its 20 member states, which come


confusingly, include Canada. In several countries, the fourth


largest contributor behind France, Germany and Italy. A few years ago,


we upped our contributions, making the UK lots of friends around here.


Each memo pays a sort of basic subscription based on their national


income, and the more you pay in, the more work gets sent your country's


way. Member states, then, pick and choose which missions to invest in.


Some countries have specific interest in launchers. They will


invest more in launches than other areas. Other countries don't have


such an interest. They don't have to put money into that programme.


Having said it is not part of the EU, the agency does when Europe's


equipment of the GPS system, Galileo, which the EU pays a lot of


awful of the Lisbon Treaty also gave Brussels the power to have its own


space policy for the first time. And prepare for Britain to go space mad.


Next year, Major Tim Peake will become the first British astronaut


to head into orbit on the European mission. You have both got 30


seconds to give us your impressions. A good thing? It is. It is a great


example of European co-operation. You get more bang for your bucks by


cooperating. There is going to be a new centre in Oxfordshire. We have


got 30,000 people in Britain in pride in space related technology.


-- employed. It is good for jobs and good for the future prosperity. That


is your 30 seconds. Now yours. I also agree. It is a good thing. This


is not about putting a man on the moon. It is about the cutting edge


of technology, which is all good for keeping Britain as an advanced


industrial economy. And we get some payback for this. It might be


disproportionate, in fact. All credit to the Coalition government,


if I may say, by putting more money into the European Space Agency. This


is not a party political programme That's all for today.


! Thanks to my guests, David Martin and Sarah Ludford. Bye bye.


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