04/03/2014 Daily Politics


04/03/2014

Andrew Neil is joined by Labour's Baroness Prosser to look at the latest developments in Ukraine and Russia, as well as all the other political news, interviews and debate.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Afternoon, folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The West resolves to speak with one voice against Russian aggression in

:00:47.:00:52.

Ukraine. But, are western countries actually divided on the issue?

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Tensions remain high in Crimea between Russian and Ukrainian

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troops. The US calls it a "brazen act of aggression", and says all

:00:59.:01:08.

options are on the table. Vladimir Putin says economic

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sanctions will backfire on the West. As a leaked British document exposes

:01:12.:01:15.

reticence about tough action, is the West at a loss about how to deal

:01:16.:01:18.

with Mr Putin? Labour unveils plans for tackling

:01:19.:01:21.

our "fragmented health and social care". But is it just another

:01:22.:01:23.

blueprint for a radical top-down reorganisation of the NHS?

:01:24.:01:30.

And, you've heard the one about MPs and flipping? No, I'm not talking

:01:31.:01:33.

about expenses! I'm talking about pancakes! Yes, it's Shrove Tuesday,

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and the annual Westminster pancake race. Stay tuned to see who won.

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All that in the next hour. With us for the whole programme

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today is Margaret Prosser. She was once a president of the TUC,

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Treasurer of the Labour Party, and now sits on the Labour benches in

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the House of Lords. Welcome to the show.

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Let's start with the latest developments in Ukraine. President

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Putin has been holding a press conference calling the toppling of

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President Yanukovych and anti constitutional coup. He said sending

:02:21.:02:24.

troops into the rest of the Ukraine was not needed but did not rule it

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out. He also warned economic sanctions from the West would

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backfire. John Kerry is on his way to Kiev in the Ukraine. He has

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reiterated his support for the new government.

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The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, who visited Kiev yesterday,

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is answering questions in the Commons at the moment. These are

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life pictures as we speak. He will give a statement on the Ukraine

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issue at 12:30pm, we will bring you some of that later in the show.

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The government has reiterated its condemnation of the Russian presence

:03:08.:03:12.

in Crimea. But it suffered an embarrassing incident yesterday

:03:13.:03:15.

afternoon, when a senior official was photographed with a briefing

:03:16.:03:21.

document on show. The document said: "The UK should not support for now

:03:22.:03:24.

trade sanctions, or close London's financial centre to Russians," And

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the Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has this to say earlier this

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morning. I want to be really clear that

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Russia will face a range of diplomatic and political and

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economic consequences if it carries on with its current course. We are

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absolutely not ruling out now the kind of options we will look at, in

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order to make it very clear to President Putin and the Russian

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Federation that there will be very real consequences. There was no

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predetermined limit on the measures we will look at, entertain, in order

:04:09.:04:17.

to safeguard the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

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Taking a different line from what we saw in the security briefing

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yesterday. To give us more detail, we have the

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BBC's political correspondent, Norman Smith, joining us from the

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Central Lobby of Parliament. When William Hague makes his

:04:35.:04:37.

statement to the House of Commons, he will be under pressure to come up

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with a coherent government response. He may be under pressure but I do

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not think we will get much detail. I would characterise the government

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position as the Au al 's strategy, you had better not go into Ukraine,

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or else. But what actually that is, we do not know. I do not think we

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will find out. We have an indication what it is not. It is absolutely not

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military action which is off the table. We know from that document

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that it is also probably not any meaningful economic sanction or

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trade retaliation against Russia. We are not going to close the city to

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Russian investors, which leaves you scratching your head, what is it? We

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will not find out because, listening to William Hague, he has a wonderful

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way of saying a lot without saying much at all beyond vague assertions

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there will be costs and consequences. The reality is we are

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not being specific because there is an awareness anything specific could

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damage our own interests, take a long time to have impact, may not

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influence President Putin. Far better to keep it general and vague,

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and to hope by some overarching diplomatic blaster, that President

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Putin begins to step back and we can begin a process of engaging him in a

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diplomatic route. We're joined now by the Conservative

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MP John Whittingdale who chairs parliament's All-Party Ukraine

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Group. And by Sir Andrew Wood, a former British Ambassador to Moscow.

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If President Putin was listening that, he would take great comfort.

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Either we don't know what to do, we are undecided, what ever we do won't

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make any difference. What we need to do is to send the strongest message

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we can to President Putin that what has happened is not acceptable, in

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breach of international law, not acceptable in this century for a

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foreign power to have armed forces in another country. It is hard to

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divine what the response will be, not just from Britain, also Germany

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and America. This has two be done through international agreement. It

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is hard to define what the practical responses are. This has to be

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discussed very quickly. You can not send ministers of the Royal family

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to Sochi, but that is not enough. We may need economic sanctions, there

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is a range of ways, you can target individuals. That was ruled out in

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the security paper. That was a briefing not confirmed. Downing

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Street has said it does not represent the view. This is

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something they will have to settle quickly. Wealthy Russians are

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involved in wealth management in this country, football clubs,

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various industries. Are we going to stop them coming to this country to

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visit their investment? The property market. There is a very strong

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Russian community in written. I would like to see targeted sanctions

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against individual members of the government. They are not the ones

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who... Some do hold assets in this country. Would that make much of a

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difference to President Putin? It might make a difference. A lot of

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people do have houses in Knightsbridge who are associated. We

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need to look at all the options. That must mean measures which are

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going to have a significant impact on the Administration in Russia, to

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demonstrate we are not going to indulge in gestures, we take this

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seriously. Should that Deputy National Security adviser who

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revealed that document, Esat? I do not know who that was. He would have

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thought they have learned this lesson. Should he be sacked? It

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seems extraordinary that a national security adviser should have such a

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lax procedure. Why are spies needed, when they weigh these documents

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around in the street? We do know, at the end of the day, it is ministers

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who advise, with advice from officials. I hope they look at these

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measures seriously. We have to let you go because you are going to see

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the Ukrainian ambassador. Thank U. Ambassador, it is clear that when

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the coup took place in Kiev, the Russians at the very least were

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going to take control of Crimea. Why didn't the West anticipate that?

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I am not sure it was, to be honest. From the moment they announced

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exercises as not having any links with Ukraine, it was obvious. Crimea

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was an obvious target. And an easy one. Can I come back to your earlier

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questions. There is a very good reason why a lot of Russians keep

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their money in this country and do not invest in Russia. The punishment

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for Putin will essentially be that this will do great harm to his

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economy. It will certainly make foreign investment more difficult.

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It will certainly increase the likelihood that he will be still

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more repressive to his own people. It will certainly be read by Russian

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potential investors of increasing the risk of arbitrary rule and the

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risk to their own investment. They are already in economic trouble and

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this will make it worse, perhaps in the longer run, it can make it

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better, but I do not think so. They have to go through a period of

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painful reform, pretty much what we are prying -- trying to prescribe to

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Ukraine. That would be attracted to Putin Russia is itself in a bind.

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There is a terrific charge from going in with troops, it is not a

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drug which lasts. I understand budget is in a bind

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because it needs foreign currency it gets from oil and gas sales to

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Europe. It needs more than that. That is 50% of revenue. A big chunk

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comes through the Ukraine. Who would blink first, the Europeans need the

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gas, Germany, Holland, Poland. You would wonder that the Kremlin will

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be tough on this than we would be. The last time they cut off the gas,

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it was estimated Gazprom lost about 3 billion. It is a question of

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mutual suffering. Gazprom will not like losing that revenue. It has

:12:16.:12:22.

reserves of over 300 billion. But this is a long-term issue. For

:12:23.:12:26.

sanctions to have an effect, they need to be on for a long period,

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which is why it is not a realistic option. There is no will to do that.

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I would be surprised. Looking at the British response, and the Americans

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were the rhetoric is tougher. The real response that matters is

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Germany. The new social Democratic Minister has indicated he thinks we

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should still go to the G eight. He is not even signed up to boycotting

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that. He is hostage to the bleep if you're nice to the Russians, he will

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learn to be as nice as you are. Which is a fallacy. If we haven't

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got the Germans... Unlike the British, the Germans have

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substantial foreign -- foreign direct investment. So have we, BP

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has a huge investment in Russia. We have got huge services sectors, a

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fine tradition of doing Russian trials in this country. I want to

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bring Margaret in here. What do you make of it all?

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Well, interestingly, watching the demonstrations in the square in

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Kiev, clearly, those people were feeling hugely energised by the idea

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of change. And then you think to yourself, but you are not the whole

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community. Only one part of it. How are they going, as time goes along,

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to demonstrate some inclusivity. The country is made up of very different

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groups of people. Unless they all feel they have a shout in the future

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of the country, they are not going to be happy with one solution, be it

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a Russian or European solution. It has to bring in more people, surely?

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Crimea is now in Russian hands, be any question mark now has to be

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whether he moves in on the eastern Ukraine as well? It is easy to

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exaggerate the depth of attachment in eastern Ukraine for Russia.

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it is true there are stronger conditions of European traditions,

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if you like, in the West, not least because that is the part of Ukraine

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that was seized by Stalin. But it is also true that it was as much

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recognising that Victor Yanukovych was a thief and a third in the east

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as in the West. There is a much better chance at the moment of a

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degree of support across the country for the sort of difficult changes

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that would need to be done. We should sympathise with the

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reluctance to undertake them, we have never wanted to upset things,

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it is easy to go on doing the same thing, but the country is broke for

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a good reason. We shall see how events unfold. Some shots were fired

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this morning, so it is a moving story. A senior Downing Street

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adviser has been arrested in connection with allegations about

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imagery of child abuse. Number Ten has confirmed that Patrick Rock, who

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was the deputy head of policy, was detained at his home last month and

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has resigned from his post. Let's get more with our political

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correspondent Carole Walker who is outside Downing Street. Bring us up

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to date. Patrick Rock is someone who has worked for the Conservative

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Party for decades, going back to the era of Margaret Thatcher and John

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Major. He knew David Cameron well from their days when they were both

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special adviser and the Prime Minister brought him back as deputy

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head of the policy unit in 2011, so Patrick Rock was closely involved in

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the Fx to draw up rules to block access to child pornography on the

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Internet. He was arrested in the early hours in relation to a

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potential offence relating to child abuse imagery. Number Ten say they

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are cooperating fully with the investigation and they have given

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them access to computers and officers and so on. They are saying

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as this is an ongoing investigation it would not be appropriate to say

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anything further, although they are stressing the Prime Minister views

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child abuse images at up rent and anyone who has anything to do with

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this should be dealt with properly under the law. But it is worth

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remembering that Patrick Rock has not been charged with anything and

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we have not been able to contact him to get a response to the

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allegations. Now, as you all know it is National Apprenticeship Week. Oh,

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you didn't know that? Well, it is. Prime Minister David Cameron is

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speaking in Coventry today about apprentices and how they can help

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the long-term economic recovery. He will say apprentices form part of

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the Government's broader economic plan to create jobs and cut taxes

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before the next election. But are apprenticeships really one of the

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coalition's success stories? Or could they be doing more to help

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people train for future careers? We can speak now to the Skills

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Minister, Matthew Hancock. Welcome to the programme. I am sorry we did

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not have you on on Sunday, but Ukraine meant we had to cover that

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instead. I understand. The Government is emphasising a lot

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about its support for apprenticeships and I have heard you

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do the same. There are more apprenticeships and their work in

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the last years of the last Labour Government, but they fell last year.

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Why was that? There has been a sharp rise in the number of

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apprenticeships and in the last year those participating were at record

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levels, 868,000. We have taken action to make sure every

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apprenticeship is high quality. Previously an apprenticeship could

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be less than one year long and I do not see that as a proper

:19:04.:19:08.

apprenticeship. We have insisted everyone has a minimum of one year

:19:09.:19:12.

and that means we have removed some low quality provision. If you take

:19:13.:19:17.

those that are longer than one year and that our high quality, then

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those numbers are going up. It is not only about the numbers, it is

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also about quality. You talk about quality, but a big chunk of the

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apprenticeships are in two sectors, health and business Administration.

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I would not run those down, but you know as well as I do that this

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country's skilled shortage is in the stem skills, science, technology,

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engineering and mathematics. Why don't we have more apprenticeships

:19:49.:19:54.

in these? The number applying for engineering apprenticeships went up

:19:55.:19:59.

over 20% over the last two years. But one of the things we have done

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that has made apprenticeships a big part of the scene these days is made

:20:05.:20:08.

sure that they reflect the whole economy. As well as the traditional

:20:09.:20:16.

areas of engineering and manufacturing where we have skills

:20:17.:20:20.

shortages, and they would be worse without these schemes, we have got

:20:21.:20:24.

to make sure the apprenticeships can get you to all sorts of the economy.

:20:25.:20:29.

I was in Saint Thomas 's hospital yesterday with the health care

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apprenticeships. Today we are launching a graduate apprenticeship

:20:35.:20:38.

in nursing to be able to get you to be a fully qualified nurse through

:20:39.:20:43.

an apprenticeship at graduate level. You can now become a fully qualified

:20:44.:20:49.

solicitor through an apprenticeship without necessarily having gone to

:20:50.:20:53.

university and that was not possible before. The economy is broad. This

:20:54.:21:00.

country is not exactly short of solicitors. But it is short of

:21:01.:21:06.

engineers and scientists and technologists and surely that is

:21:07.:21:10.

where any apprenticeship programme should concentrate? It is not

:21:11.:21:15.

either, aura. We would have a problem if we did not have high

:21:16.:21:19.

quality training in the health sector. Likewise, the law is

:21:20.:21:24.

dominated by people who went to university and the best schools and

:21:25.:21:29.

apprenticeships can open up access. The BBC launched an apprenticeship

:21:30.:21:32.

programme yesterday, I was there with Tony Hall, launching an

:21:33.:21:38.

apprenticeship in journalism to broaden access into the BBC's so you

:21:39.:21:41.

do not have to have gone to the right school to get into the BBC.

:21:42.:21:47.

These sorts of moves both to get the skills, but also to broaden channels

:21:48.:21:52.

of entry into the professions are really important. We want to make it

:21:53.:21:58.

the new norm that when a young person leaves school they can choose

:21:59.:22:02.

either to go to university or into an apprenticeship and they get

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high-quality options for both. Our job is not to push people one way or

:22:08.:22:11.

the other, but to make sure there are high quality options on both

:22:12.:22:19.

sides. 45% of apprenticeships start as work over the age of 25 and that

:22:20.:22:25.

is encouraging in that in one sense older people are getting new skills

:22:26.:22:31.

to suit new demands. But on the other hand there are about 1 million

:22:32.:22:39.

young people not in education or employment or training, and we know

:22:40.:22:43.

there are still far greater demands for apprenticeships among young

:22:44.:22:47.

people than there are places for young people. Yes, it is important

:22:48.:22:53.

that it is an all age programme as you say, not least because in this

:22:54.:22:58.

economy whole industries come and go and we need to make sure people can

:22:59.:23:03.

retrain. But we have also got to get support at the younger end.

:23:04.:23:07.

Interestingly, last Thursday statistics came out showing that the

:23:08.:23:15.

number of 16-18 -year-olds without jobs or training is at the lowest

:23:16.:23:18.

level since action began. There is action that is starting to be taken

:23:19.:23:25.

that is showing to be working. It is still too high, but it is coming

:23:26.:23:30.

down. There is growth in the apprenticeships aged between 19 and

:23:31.:23:35.

24. I agree that broadly we have got to have an all age programme, but

:23:36.:23:40.

action to tackle youth unemployment involves apprenticeships and the new

:23:41.:23:44.

trainee schemes for those who have not got the wherewithal to hold down

:23:45.:23:49.

a job, but it is also about making it easier for employers to employ

:23:50.:23:53.

young people and some of the action we are taking is one of the reasons

:23:54.:24:05.

youth unemployment is finally starting to fall. You have got views

:24:06.:24:08.

on this given your experience in the TUC and the Labour Party. What would

:24:09.:24:11.

you say? On the one hand, of course, any attention being paid to

:24:12.:24:15.

training and upscaling people for work is to be welcomed. I am

:24:16.:24:20.

confused, as are many people in the country, by the use of the term

:24:21.:24:25.

apprenticeship. I am glad to hear him say it will be a minimum of 12

:24:26.:24:30.

months, but that does not make it an apprenticeship. It is a training

:24:31.:24:35.

programme. The term apprenticeship is a fast one. You think it is too

:24:36.:24:45.

wide? It is far too wide. The TUC is a big supporter of the

:24:46.:24:48.

apprenticeship programme and I work very closely with them. What about

:24:49.:24:52.

the point is the definition is too wide? Moving the minimum up to the

:24:53.:25:00.

year was the right thing to do and driving up quality overall is really

:25:01.:25:05.

vital. You can do one apprenticeship at an entry-level and then go on to

:25:06.:25:12.

do a higher apprenticeship or even now a degree level or Masters level

:25:13.:25:17.

apprenticeship. The point is to get people into progression so you keep

:25:18.:25:21.

training all way through and make sure whether or not you go to

:25:22.:25:25.

university there is training available, that you can keep moving

:25:26.:25:30.

up the career ladder. If you made one year apprenticeship and then you

:25:31.:25:33.

did another apprenticeship to get you up to a higher level of

:25:34.:25:40.

skill... But over all the support for the programme and the increasing

:25:41.:25:43.

quality in the programme is important. What do you make of the

:25:44.:25:49.

attempt by conservatives in the Cabinet to try and talk the Liberals

:25:50.:25:55.

into getting a referendum deal on Europe and recall mechanism into the

:25:56.:26:00.

Queen's speech? I have not followed it, I have been talking about

:26:01.:26:06.

apprenticeships all day. But I do support having a referendum on

:26:07.:26:11.

membership of the EU in 2017. Would you like to see it in the Queen's

:26:12.:26:17.

speech? I very much would like to see it happen. We had to have it as

:26:18.:26:22.

a private member 's' bill because the Lib Dems did not want it to

:26:23.:26:27.

happen. And you are happy with recall of MPs if they are not

:26:28.:26:32.

behaving? There are good arguments. I used to sit on the standards and

:26:33.:26:37.

privileges committee in the Commons which currently adjudicates on

:26:38.:26:42.

whether an MP should be kicked out. The arguments are difficult and

:26:43.:26:47.

finely balance. So long as you get the right structures in place, I

:26:48.:26:51.

think it could work, but you have got to get the details right so you

:26:52.:26:58.

do not get purely vexatious recall elections. IU encouraged this was

:26:59.:27:05.

discussed and they try to force it through this morning? I will wait to

:27:06.:27:08.

read the minutes and find that the official version. It is good you

:27:09.:27:14.

came here and got an early heads up. We thank you for speaking about

:27:15.:27:23.

apprenticeships. Remember when David Cameron revealed that they would not

:27:24.:27:29.

do a top-down reorganisation of the NHS? Labour opposed that programme.

:27:30.:27:44.

But today Andy Burnham reviewed their plans for the NHS. He calls it

:27:45.:27:51.

whole person care which would create an integrated service with a single

:27:52.:27:56.

budget for further, mental and social needs. The same budget that

:27:57.:28:01.

treats us when we were ill would also treat as in old age. Ed

:28:02.:28:10.

Miliband and Ed Balls why not entirely convinced. Could the public

:28:11.:28:14.

really stand another major round of NHS reforms? They told Andy Burnham

:28:15.:28:19.

to go away and get a second opinion. John Alden is a former

:28:20.:28:23.

senior civil servant at the Department of Health and a doctor

:28:24.:28:27.

and was appointed to head up a commission into what Ed Miliband

:28:28.:28:30.

called the biggest challenge in the history of the NHS. The main problem

:28:31.:28:36.

was Doctor Burnham's suggestion that local councils would be given the

:28:37.:28:40.

power to decide what to spend in the budget. Today so John has published

:28:41.:28:48.

his report and set out his vision for whole person care. It has got Ed

:28:49.:28:53.

Miliband's endorsement, but how close is it to what Andy Burnham

:28:54.:28:58.

came up with in the first place? What exactly would it mean for the

:28:59.:29:03.

NHS. Richard Humphreys is an assistant director at the Kings

:29:04.:29:08.

fund. What do you make of this proposal? This is very significant

:29:09.:29:14.

report that will influence the shape of labour's final policy ahead of

:29:15.:29:19.

the next election. It makes a very strong and compelling case for

:29:20.:29:23.

change. Also the need for a much more integrated model of care in

:29:24.:29:28.

which different bits of the NHS and the care system work together to

:29:29.:29:33.

wrap care around the needs of individuals and care closer to home

:29:34.:29:39.

and more emphasis on prevention. But this is a long-standing policy

:29:40.:29:42.

ambition. It is easier to talk about it than it is to achieve it. The

:29:43.:29:47.

report has come up with some very helpful and practical proposals that

:29:48.:29:52.

will remove some of the obstacles that have prevented this from

:29:53.:29:56.

happening in the past, but it still leaves and resolve some big issues

:29:57.:30:02.

about money and funding, which he acknowledges in the report. How much

:30:03.:30:06.

money would be needed to make this a success? That is very hard to say.

:30:07.:30:11.

Part of the problem stems from the fact that we have got a health care

:30:12.:30:16.

system that is free at the point of views and we pay for it out of

:30:17.:30:22.

social taxation. The social care system is means tested, rationed and

:30:23.:30:26.

fewer people are using it, yet there are more of us with a mixture of

:30:27.:30:30.

health and care needs that need both systems to work together. It is very

:30:31.:30:37.

hard to do that when you have got a very underfunded care system and an

:30:38.:30:42.

NHS which is starting to creep under financial pressure. Because of that

:30:43.:30:45.

we have set up an independent commission also to look at these

:30:46.:30:51.

bigger questions about funding and entitlement, how we pay for the kind

:30:52.:30:56.

of quantity and quality of care we need in the future and how that is

:30:57.:31:02.

done. Thank you for joining us.

:31:03.:31:12.

With us now is Liz Kendall, the Shadow Minister for Care and Older

:31:13.:31:15.

People. This is another vision for NHS

:31:16.:31:22.

reform. A lot of people in the NHS might be saying, particularly after

:31:23.:31:28.

the Tory reforms, leave us alone. The last thing that anybody working

:31:29.:31:35.

in the health service wants is another reorganisation. It was in

:31:36.:31:38.

the terms of reference for the review to make sure what he proposed

:31:39.:31:44.

would not lead to another reorganisation. The proposals he has

:31:45.:31:48.

come up with can be achieved without the kind of reorganisation which has

:31:49.:31:53.

thrown the system into chaos. Won't you repeal the 2012 care act?

:31:54.:32:00.

We want to get rid of the competition part of that act. The

:32:01.:32:06.

review says, if you want to join up services, provide more care in the

:32:07.:32:12.

community at home, have an integrated set of services, that

:32:13.:32:17.

part of legislation is preventing integrated service is happening. Is

:32:18.:32:22.

it part of the act you would repeal? We want to get rid of part of the

:32:23.:32:26.

bill stopping the services from working together. The act was a

:32:27.:32:34.

top-down organisation reform. If you repeal it, you have two replace it

:32:35.:32:42.

with something. We won't get rid of the clinical commissioning groups or

:32:43.:32:47.

the health and well-being boards. If you don't mind me saying, your

:32:48.:32:51.

introduction about why we have done this is completely wrong. The reason

:32:52.:33:00.

why we asked him to look at this is because, when Andrew Lansley got in,

:33:01.:33:05.

he spun this on people without properly involving them. We have

:33:06.:33:10.

worked with people in services, councils, hospitals to get something

:33:11.:33:16.

that can be implemented practically. Politicians don't know

:33:17.:33:25.

all the answers. Absolutely! I never worked that out! We have tried to do

:33:26.:33:30.

something different, to get people working in the services to help make

:33:31.:33:35.

the changes. Andy Burnham suggested local councils would decide where to

:33:36.:33:40.

spend the integrated budgets. In this report, it doesn't look like

:33:41.:33:46.

those budgets will be handed over. Health and well-being boards have an

:33:47.:33:50.

important role. They can do things like link up with housing and other

:33:51.:33:55.

issues locally. The review says, if the local health service and council

:33:56.:34:01.

decide they want one budget, it is up to them. It shouldn't be forced

:34:02.:34:11.

on them. You will know it was Mr Miliband who blocked the idea of

:34:12.:34:15.

handing budgets over to local government. I have never heard them

:34:16.:34:21.

say anything about what Andy has been proposing, they have always...

:34:22.:34:29.

The funding idea was misguided. Where did you get that from? The

:34:30.:34:38.

Independent newspaper. Ed Balls and Ed Miliband understand our health

:34:39.:34:41.

care system needs to change to improve care for people and get

:34:42.:34:49.

value for money. We have more people living longer with more chronic

:34:50.:34:54.

conditions. At the moment our system is based on hospitals when we need

:34:55.:34:57.

more care in the community and at home. This excellent report gives

:34:58.:35:04.

practical proposals. But local authorities will not get

:35:05.:35:10.

the money. If a council and NHS locally want to join up, they should

:35:11.:35:15.

be allowed to do so. That is not what Andy Burnham originally

:35:16.:35:20.

proposed. He believes councils should have an important and bigger

:35:21.:35:25.

role. This report has set out how we might do that. The report also says

:35:26.:35:32.

it will need ?10 billion from existing allocations. No, it

:35:33.:35:36.

doesn't. It says everything in the report can be achieved within the

:35:37.:35:41.

existing finances. They want to see a shift in the focus of resources

:35:42.:35:48.

more into the community. Where does that money come from? You can't

:35:49.:35:54.

shift funds without someone losing. In the places where it has worked

:35:55.:35:59.

well, they have not had so many general medical beds in hospitals,

:36:00.:36:04.

too many older people who could be kept at home. They have shifted that

:36:05.:36:11.

money into local teams, nurses, physiotherapists, social care

:36:12.:36:15.

support people, to keep people at home. The money has been shifted

:36:16.:36:21.

into the community. That is what we want to see in all parts of the

:36:22.:36:28.

country. ?3.8 billion has already been put in. That is existing

:36:29.:36:32.

resources. You are talking about shifting existing resources. Out of

:36:33.:36:44.

a total budget of ?120 billion. This has started a process you want to

:36:45.:36:51.

reinforce. Actually, we do want to see this but three years have been

:36:52.:36:56.

spent on reorganisation when they should have been focused on this.

:36:57.:37:01.

This legislation is preventing joined up working. Where hospitals

:37:02.:37:06.

want to work closely with community services, they are being prevented

:37:07.:37:15.

because of this so legislation -- this legislation. Margaret?

:37:16.:37:23.

Overall, it sounds what -- this is what is needed. People are living

:37:24.:37:27.

longer, they have multiple issues to be dealt with, some of which are

:37:28.:37:32.

better dealt with within a medical context, a social context. What I

:37:33.:37:41.

think is there, is the devil is in the detail. There needs to be a

:37:42.:37:47.

cultural shift by all of the players, at local level, suddenly

:37:48.:37:52.

working hand-in-hand with people you did not used to before. Particularly

:37:53.:37:59.

at political level where members of Parliament, secretaries of state,

:38:00.:38:03.

they want to hang on to hang onto the glory. That is the story of

:38:04.:38:16.

British government. We do need that, the cultural point is

:38:17.:38:20.

important. A big part of the report is we need to look at the way staff

:38:21.:38:24.

are trained. If we can have some training where GPs, nurses and

:38:25.:38:29.

social care staff are trained together. Also, we have a proper

:38:30.:38:34.

focus on people helping people to help themselves. There is a lot more

:38:35.:38:40.

patience can do. Which hospitals are not geared up to do. Last Monday, I

:38:41.:38:46.

saw a 74-year-old woman doing her kidney dialysis at home, because she

:38:47.:38:52.

had specialist training from nurses. Her life had been

:38:53.:38:56.

transformed. Instead of going to hospital three times a week, she was

:38:57.:39:00.

at home. She said she did not think she could cope with machines, but

:39:01.:39:07.

with support, she can. Helping people to live the lives they want

:39:08.:39:13.

when they get older it is what it is about. Andy Burnham proposed a death

:39:14.:39:24.

tax on estates, is that ruled out? I think it was a really bad bit of

:39:25.:39:30.

politics just before the election, trying to get cross-party agreement.

:39:31.:39:34.

We will have to pay more for our care as we get older. What is the

:39:35.:39:40.

fairest way? To call something a death tax when actually many people

:39:41.:39:43.

were losing all of their homes already to pay for care. Has it been

:39:44.:39:50.

rolled out? We have not proposed it. I promise you, if we come up with

:39:51.:39:56.

any proposals on funding social care, you will be one of the first

:39:57.:40:01.

to know. We hold you to that promise.

:40:02.:40:04.

Regular viewers of this programme will know that Ed Miliband has been

:40:05.:40:09.

involved in a long struggle to alter the Labour Party's relationship with

:40:10.:40:12.

the trade unions. Well, the party approved changes to that

:40:13.:40:14.

relationship in a special conference over the weekend. Senior Labour

:40:15.:40:18.

figures have hailed it as the culmination of decades of attempted

:40:19.:40:20.

reform by successive Labour leaders. But, is that really the case? In a

:40:21.:40:24.

moment, we'll be talking to our guest of the day, Margaret Prosser,

:40:25.:40:30.

about that. But first, our reporter Alex Forsyth, has been delving into

:40:31.:40:34.

the archives of Labour's links with the unions.

:40:35.:40:42.

The clue is in the name, more than 100 years ago, the Labour party

:40:43.:40:46.

emerged from the need for a political voice for the working

:40:47.:40:51.

class. Its roots are buried deep in the trade union movement. Labour is

:40:52.:40:56.

the party of the future. In post-war Britain, while its fortunes waxed

:40:57.:41:01.

and waned, its union link remained strong. That -- but not entirely

:41:02.:41:11.

unchallenged. In the 1960s, a plan from the employment Secretary

:41:12.:41:15.

Barbara Castle to curb union power threatened a major party split. The

:41:16.:41:19.

trade unions themselves have been clamouring for years for collective

:41:20.:41:25.

bargaining to be underpinned more and more by the law. In the end,

:41:26.:41:30.

there was compromise. So came the era of the mighty barons. As ongoing

:41:31.:41:39.

strikes caused chaos in Britain, the public mood shifted. The trade union

:41:40.:41:46.

link became a liability. In 1981, a gang of four defected, claiming

:41:47.:41:53.

Labour had lurched to the left and yielded power to the unions. It was

:41:54.:41:57.

Margaret Thatcher who dared do what Labour leaders had not, she went

:41:58.:42:03.

head to head with the unions and eroded their industrial might. It

:42:04.:42:07.

led to Neil Kinnock and his effort to distance his party from the hard

:42:08.:42:12.

left. I am telling you, you cannot play politics with people 's jobs

:42:13.:42:19.

and people 's services. It was John Smith who first broke the power of

:42:20.:42:23.

the union block vote in 1993. The changes I propose today are vital.

:42:24.:42:32.

Then came Tony Blair who tore up old Labour's Constitution, ditching

:42:33.:42:39.

clause four, the commitment to the common ownership of the means of

:42:40.:42:42.

production. Now, forced to prove his

:42:43.:42:48.

leadership, Ed Miliband. Last weekend, he won backing for an end

:42:49.:42:52.

to the automatic affiliation of union members and introduced the one

:42:53.:42:56.

member, one-vote system, to elect a leaders. The biggest transfer of

:42:57.:43:02.

power to our members and supporters in the history of the Labour Party.

:43:03.:43:07.

He has been praised for finishing a job started long ago, but some say

:43:08.:43:11.

the reforms are not that radical, and could make labour more dependent

:43:12.:43:16.

on the unions, not least for their money.

:43:17.:43:19.

Our guest of the day, Margaret Prosser, is a former senior figure

:43:20.:43:23.

within the old T Union, and was also the Treasurer of the Labour

:43:24.:43:30.

Party. We used to go to the converse is on the Isle of Man. I spent my

:43:31.:43:37.

life going to conferences. And we're also joined by the Conservative MP

:43:38.:43:44.

Priti Patel. Welcome back. Are these changes as significant as being made

:43:45.:43:50.

out? They are, I think. I have been living this over the months. The

:43:51.:43:54.

person who put the report together, Lord Collins of Highbury, is my dear

:43:55.:44:02.

friend Ray Collins who spent time with me in the union. We have been

:44:03.:44:06.

discussing this for ages. One of the significant things is that, those

:44:07.:44:20.

members who agreed to be part of the political fundamental, and to be a

:44:21.:44:24.

supporter, their names will be part of the Labour Party database. The

:44:25.:44:29.

Labour Party will, for the first time, be able to communicate

:44:30.:44:33.

directly with those members rather than through the trades you. This is

:44:34.:44:40.

how the unions had dealt with it. Transparency is very welcome. An

:44:41.:44:47.

example of union power being reduced within the Labour Party.

:44:48.:44:50.

Effectively, Ed Miliband has a problem, not just the link but the

:44:51.:44:55.

natural dependency with the trades unions. There has been plenty of

:44:56.:45:00.

commentary at the weekend where the union leadership, Len McCluskey,

:45:01.:45:05.

they are basically saying they are still in charge, in control. They

:45:06.:45:10.

will be making it a transactional relationship.

:45:11.:45:18.

That has always been their argument, but it has not always work out that

:45:19.:45:26.

way. They are saying they are very happy with the reforms. They claim

:45:27.:45:31.

it gives them more power, more strength and decision making and it

:45:32.:45:36.

is all about financial leverage when it comes to policy-making that is

:45:37.:45:41.

critical. I think they are putting a brave face on it. I do not think

:45:42.:45:46.

they are happy at all. They cannot say, no, we are not in favour of

:45:47.:45:52.

these changes, because that makes them look and democratic and

:45:53.:45:57.

dismissive of their membership. They have had to go along with it. I tell

:45:58.:46:02.

you what the next step will be, and the unions will cloud me for this,

:46:03.:46:08.

but if you go back to 1980s there were over 50 trade unions affiliated

:46:09.:46:14.

to the party. By 1990 it was 30 and now it is ten. What does that mean?

:46:15.:46:22.

That means the nuances of different interests and concerns and

:46:23.:46:25.

experiences around the trade union movement have been reduced and

:46:26.:46:29.

reduced and that cannot be healthy. I think what has happened so far

:46:30.:46:35.

with these latest changes is hugely important, but somehow something has

:46:36.:46:41.

to be done about the reduced numbers of voices around the table. Labour

:46:42.:46:47.

is making changes. It is going to depend more on individual membership

:46:48.:46:52.

and unions signing people up. It may cause them problems with money

:46:53.:46:56.

because they are not going to get the money handed over every year in

:46:57.:47:01.

affiliation. There may be more to do, but shouldn't the pressure now

:47:02.:47:04.

come on the Tories to clean up their act when it comes to party funding?

:47:05.:47:11.

I do not think that is what this is about. The reality is we are living

:47:12.:47:17.

in an anti-politics age anyway, the public are quite disenfranchised

:47:18.:47:21.

with political parties. We are talking about the unions and it is

:47:22.:47:25.

clear that the Labour leadership have got very strong links with the

:47:26.:47:30.

Labour unions. But at the same time it is incumbent from all political

:47:31.:47:35.

parties, and my party is very broad in our membership and we are very

:47:36.:47:40.

diverse in the way we select our candidates, I was selected to an

:47:41.:47:46.

open primary vote. But we do not rely on a block for funding. We rely

:47:47.:47:52.

on a lot of people who donate across the country. It is not a handful of

:47:53.:47:58.

donors. Rose coloured spectacles you have on I do feel. You may have a

:47:59.:48:04.

large number of people giving money but they are almost all from the

:48:05.:48:07.

same class, it is almost all business. Do not pretend that you

:48:08.:48:16.

have got a wide variety. We do have. Your membership has gone down faster

:48:17.:48:22.

than any political party. And so it has for all political parties, but

:48:23.:48:29.

that does not mean we are not getting a new diverse group of

:48:30.:48:37.

people. I don't know where to start. Let me start this way, how can you

:48:38.:48:44.

claim to be a broadly based party in terms of social diversity when five

:48:45.:48:48.

of the six people who are drying up the next manifesto all went to the

:48:49.:48:52.

same school and it was not comprehensive. The one who did not

:48:53.:48:58.

go to Eta went to Saint Pauls. That is categorically not true. I am

:48:59.:49:02.

sitting here today as a member of the manifesto commission. But you

:49:03.:49:14.

are not part of David's cronies. We are engaging our parliamentarians

:49:15.:49:18.

and our party at large when it comes to the manifesto and the type of

:49:19.:49:22.

manifesto. I am scripting some papers, I can tell you that now. You

:49:23.:49:28.

say you take money from diverse groups and it is true there has been

:49:29.:49:34.

much criticism of the union dependency of the Labour Party, but

:49:35.:49:38.

that is a transparent arrangement. We can see that and we can hold them

:49:39.:49:44.

to account. I have interviewed Len McCluskey, the head of the GMB and

:49:45.:49:49.

Labour politicians. I have never managed to interview one of the huge

:49:50.:49:54.

hedge fund owners that your party depends on. They are not transparent

:49:55.:50:00.

and told themselves to account. They are old transparent and they are all

:50:01.:50:05.

registered. They do not give themselves up in the wake trade

:50:06.:50:12.

union leaders do. They have to get on with the business of what they

:50:13.:50:18.

are doing. A number of them came from health interests and they got

:50:19.:50:23.

contracts from the health service. That is a massive generalisation. We

:50:24.:50:30.

have a range of donors. We have a range of donors to our political

:50:31.:50:35.

party and they are all registered. But they do not hold themselves

:50:36.:50:39.

accountable like trade union leaders. They do not buy party

:50:40.:50:45.

policy and they do not buy leadership. That is ridiculous.

:50:46.:50:50.

Since when did Labour produce the kind of stuff the trade unions are

:50:51.:50:58.

calling for? Tony Blair ignored the trade unions. To his credit, but

:50:59.:51:06.

this is Ed Miliband. The reason we are discussing this is because Ed

:51:07.:51:10.

Miliband recognises the nature of the relationship between the party

:51:11.:51:18.

and the unions has to move forward. If Ed Miliband does stand up to the

:51:19.:51:26.

unions, I do not think he will when you have Len McCluskey and the union

:51:27.:51:30.

leaders. They are all on the record being quoted. That I had the donors

:51:31.:51:39.

that you have on the record? A lot of what Len McCluskey would like as

:51:40.:51:44.

party policy is not party policy. If you could get me an interview with

:51:45.:51:50.

one of your million pound hedge fund donators... I don't even know them.

:51:51.:51:59.

You do. If it is as transparent as you say it is, you should know them.

:52:00.:52:08.

This is not the end of the process. It is going to continue. The whole

:52:09.:52:12.

purpose of the continuation is to make the thing as transparent as

:52:13.:52:18.

possible and to make people who are part of working in England, part of

:52:19.:52:23.

working in the UK, they feel they have some mechanism to influence

:52:24.:52:26.

what is going on in the political field and that is the path. This is

:52:27.:52:34.

not a good year to say England. I realise that. Earlier we discussed

:52:35.:52:44.

the situation in Ukraine. The American Secretary of State John

:52:45.:52:49.

Kerry has arrived in Kiev. In the last few minutes the Foreign

:52:50.:52:51.

Secretary William Hague has made a statement. Her Majesty's Government

:52:52.:52:59.

condemns any violation of the sovereignty and territorial

:53:00.:53:14.

integrity of Ukraine. Under that agreement Russia is entitled to

:53:15.:53:18.

station troops and naval personnel on its bases in Crimea, but not to

:53:19.:53:23.

deploy troops outside those bases without the permission of the

:53:24.:53:28.

Ukrainian Government. Russia's actions are in breach of the

:53:29.:53:33.

Budapest memorandum signed in 1994 in return for Ukraine giving up its

:53:34.:53:38.

nuclear weapons. Russia joined the United Kingdom and the United States

:53:39.:53:43.

in reaffirming their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of

:53:44.:53:48.

force against the territorial integrity or political independence

:53:49.:53:52.

of Ukraine and it went on that none of their weapons would ever be used

:53:53.:53:56.

against Ukraine except in self defence or otherwise in accordance

:53:57.:54:01.

with the Charter of the United Nations. The Russian Government has

:54:02.:54:04.

argued there is no legitimate Government in Kiev, that the

:54:05.:54:09.

incumbent president abandoned his post, and the subsequent decisions

:54:10.:54:13.

of the Ukrainian parliament have been carried by a large majority,

:54:14.:54:21.

required under the Constitution, and the suggestion that a president who

:54:22.:54:26.

has fled his country then has any authority whatsoever to invite the

:54:27.:54:30.

forces of a neighbouring country into that country is baseless.

:54:31.:54:37.

Russia has also argued that Russian speaking minorities in Ukraine are

:54:38.:54:43.

in danger, but no evidence of that threat has been presented.

:54:44.:54:47.

International diplomatic mechanisms exist to provide assurance on the

:54:48.:54:53.

situation of minorities, including within the organisation for Security

:54:54.:54:57.

and co-operation in Europe. These mechanisms are the way to secure

:54:58.:55:02.

assurances of the protection of the rights of minorities, not the

:55:03.:55:05.

breaking of international agreements and the use of armed force. The

:55:06.:55:12.

latest British Government position. As you know it is showed Tuesday

:55:13.:55:17.

today. I expect you have been making your batter and squeezing your

:55:18.:55:22.

lemons for hours! MPs have been limbering up and flipping pancakes

:55:23.:55:28.

in the annual charity pancake race. We sent stars along to see who won.

:55:29.:55:38.

What a way to lift the winter blues on a Tuesday in Westminster with the

:55:39.:55:45.

flower of Parliament excitingly waiting. Parliamentarians have

:55:46.:55:48.

always been accused of crossing the line, but this morning it is the

:55:49.:55:55.

pancake race, to see who can flip a pancake and run around a park best.

:55:56.:56:00.

God bless them all. The MPs were very confident. We do not talk about

:56:01.:56:12.

flipping. The press always turn up to see this, but every year they

:56:13.:56:18.

also take part, although some were trying to hire replacement runners.

:56:19.:56:24.

Is Carol there because she is fast? Suddenly it was all toss and go.

:56:25.:56:45.

There we are, the Lords were victorious. The MPs were trailing

:56:46.:56:55.

behind and the press were just a bit cold. We are joined now by Tracey

:56:56.:57:04.

Crouch, a Conservative MP and was part of the MPs pancake race team.

:57:05.:57:10.

The Lords won? Let's be clear, they cheated. How did they do that? The

:57:11.:57:20.

Lord at the front of the race had a pancake in his hat. If you dropped a

:57:21.:57:26.

pancake, you have to pick it up. So he whipped it out of his hat? Has

:57:27.:57:31.

there been a stewards enquiry? We need a judge led, independent

:57:32.:57:39.

enquiry. I think we are running out of judges. And the journalists came

:57:40.:57:43.

third. It was a dreadful performance. The MPs have won the

:57:44.:57:50.

pancake race two years in a row and we were going for the hat-trick and

:57:51.:57:54.

we came a very close second, but it has all been done in a good cause.

:57:55.:58:04.

Tell me the charity. Rehab do a lot of work for people with physical

:58:05.:58:07.

disabilities and mental disabilities and we talk about these things in

:58:08.:58:11.

parliament, but they do not get the media coverage they deserve. If we

:58:12.:58:17.

have to run around, tossing pancakes to raise awareness, then so be it.

:58:18.:58:24.

Have you thought of doing this? I have been asked many times. I

:58:25.:58:28.

noticed there were a lot of blokes there. There are a lot of blokes. Do

:58:29.:58:38.

you get Pete the pancake at the end? I don't think you want to, it has

:58:39.:58:45.

been dropped so many times. That is it for the day. Thank you to all my

:58:46.:58:52.

guests. We will be here tomorrow at 11:30am with Prime Minister 's

:58:53.:59:00.

questions. I hope you can join us at 11:30am. Goodbye.

:59:01.:59:05.

Andrew Neil is joined by Labour's Baroness Prosser to look at the latest developments in Ukraine and Russia, as well as all the other political news, interviews and debate.


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