01/04/2014 Daily Politics


01/04/2014

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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Sold off on the

:00:38.:00:42.

cheap - that's the verdict of the public spending watchdog on the

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privatisation of Royal Mail. It's now worth billions of pounds more

:00:48.:00:51.

than its original price tag. Directly- elected mayors were

:00:52.:00:53.

supposed to transform local democracy. But do they place too

:00:54.:00:58.

much power in one person's hands? David Cameron promised the greenest

:00:59.:01:02.

government ever, but has it lived up to its billing?

:01:03.:01:09.

And Bonar Law, the Canadian-born British Prime Minister - proof that

:01:10.:01:13.

you can get on in politics here if you have a foreign accent?

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All that in the next hour. And with us for the whole programme today is

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the Australian-born leader of the Green Party, Natalie Bennett.

:01:25.:01:30.

Welcome to the programme. Let's start by talking veg. Fruit and veg,

:01:31.:01:33.

actually. The Government's being advised that five a day might not be

:01:34.:01:36.

enough and that we'd be even healthier if we ate seven a day. The

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advice comes from a study of over 65,000 men and women which indicated

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the more fruit and vegetables people ate, the less likely they were to

:01:45.:01:48.

die, at any given age. One of the study's authors, Dr Jenny Mindell,

:01:49.:01:55.

joins us now. Is it much up his surprise that if you eat more and

:01:56.:02:00.

veg you will have a healthier lifestyle? -- is it much of a

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surprise? We wanted to ask two questions. Is there a benefit if you

:02:08.:02:12.

are having some, even if not five a day? The answer was yes. Is there

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more benefit if you eat more than five a day? The answer was yes. What

:02:18.:02:31.

-- what is the extra benefit? The extra benefit tween five and seven

:02:32.:02:34.

is a bit less than between nine and two but it was still substantial --

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between none and two. People who had seven or more portions had a 42%

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reduction in risk of dying of anything compared to those eating

:02:53.:02:58.

less than one portion. We also found evidence it help reduce cancer

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deaths and heart disease and strokes. Many people struggle to eat

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five portions. Are you setting a potential target that is

:03:11.:03:14.

unachievable? We are not setting a target. That is not our place. We

:03:15.:03:19.

are showing that whatever you are eating, if you can manage to eat

:03:20.:03:23.

more fruit and vegetables, particularly vegetables, it is

:03:24.:03:28.

better for you. It needs to be more afraid -- more affordable and

:03:29.:03:34.

available. At the moment, junk food, high fat and sugar food, they are

:03:35.:03:39.

all around us. The industry spends billions advertising to children. We

:03:40.:03:43.

need fruit and vegetables to be advertised. These are the foods that

:03:44.:03:51.

are not quite as easy to get hold of. Would you like the government to

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change its target? What the government needs to do is introduce

:03:58.:04:00.

policies to make it easier for people to eat more fruit and

:04:01.:04:03.

vegetables. The first step is getting one and -- one in four

:04:04.:04:12.

adults who are not eating anything to eat some everyday. Five was set

:04:13.:04:18.

before it was considered a reasonable target and we are showing

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that for people who are eating five a day there may be even more benefit

:04:22.:04:26.

if they increase that. I am not suggesting the targets are changed,

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just the policies. You mean public health policies, awareness

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campaigns. Not awareness campaigns. Just telling people does not do very

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much except increase inequalities. Fruit and veg are much more

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expensive here than in many other countries. In Mediterranean

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countries, they would be laughing and thinking it was an April fool

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story because most people in many of these countries already eat far more

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fruit and vegetables than we do. The price needs to come down. Sugary

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drinks and high fat and high salt snack foods need to be more

:05:05.:05:07.

expensive. The advertising needs to be the other way round, promoting

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fruit and vegetables. Thank you very much. Sugar was mentioned. There is

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quite a lot of sugar in quite a lot of fruit. There is so much

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contradictory dietary advice. Are we now saying it is all right to eat

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lots of fruit with high levels of sugar? Looking at the detail of what

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the scientists say, vegetables is top and fruit is next and everything

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else is well behind it. It is important we do not eat up

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individual people. We have to look at the model of why our society...

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We are not any different to the Mediterranean countries, we are not

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different people. We have a difference is done, -- different

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system, supermarket -based. We import more than 90% of the fruit we

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eat. It is expensive. When our currency went down against the euro,

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there was a leap in terms of the poorest 20% of people stopping

:06:08.:06:11.

eating fruit because they could not afford it. We have to look at the

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long working hours culture which means people think they do not have

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time to cook. We have to look at the structural situation. It is about

:06:22.:06:26.

education then? There needs to be education in terms of cooking food

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which would cut down the cost but it takes more time. it does. Improving

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cooking in schools is an important issue but it is important we look at

:06:36.:06:39.

the structure of society which is destined to make us unhealthy which

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creates huge costs for the NHS. We were told for years to cut down on

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levels of fat, particularly saturated fat. Now we are told that

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there are good fats and bad fats and that sugar is the devil in the diet.

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You can understand why people are sceptical about the endless advice

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about how they should eat and what they should eat. There has been a

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lot of bad advice. We know that if eat things as close to how they came

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out of the field as possible, that is the way to go. It is quite

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simple. We have to create the framework to enable people to do

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that. What would the Green Party do? We want to restore market gardens

:07:27.:07:33.

around towns and cities. Would it reduce the cost quest to mark it

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would create jobs and help the economy overall so it is part of a

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broader package -- would it reduce the costs? We need a whole range of

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things. There are too many people in our society who have to buy the

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cheapest thing which is the worst thing. Thank you very much.

:07:50.:08:00.

The sale of Royal Mail would be good for customers, staff and taxpayers,

:08:01.:08:03.

ministers told us last autumn. But now the National Audit Office

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criticised the timing of the sell-off, the Government's cautious

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approach to pricing the offer and failure to hold back some of the

:08:09.:08:12.

holding for later sale. The shares were sold at ?3.30, but on the first

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day of trading they had risen to ?4.45, a rise of 38%. Five months

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on, the price had risen by 72% to ?6.15 a share. The difference in

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value between the shares when they were sold and now is around ?1.5

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billion. The National Audit Office concludes that the Government could

:08:35.:08:37.

have achieved better value for the taxpayer. The Business Secretary

:08:38.:08:42.

Vince Cable had this to say this morning. He was asked about the

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report as he left Downing Street. Were you juiced by the City over

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Royal Mail? Absolutely not. I will be dealing with it in Parliament --

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where you Tube at? Unfortunately no minister from the

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Department for business one of a -- Department for business was

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available. I wonder why. Where are you all hiding? I'm joined now by

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the Shadow Business Minister Ian Murray and the City commentator,

:09:19.:09:22.

Louise Cooper. Well done to the two of you for coming on. Maybe people

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did not want to defend this decision. How much do we think

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taxpayers lost here? It is always difficult to tell. About ?1.5

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billion. They lost ?750 million on the first day of trading which is

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quite an achievement. With the benefit of hindsight, how could the

:09:45.:09:50.

government have done it differently? I think the first thing that very

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early on in the book building process, when the process starts, by

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the end of day one, institutional investors, the fund management

:10:03.:10:05.

groups, they had come in and put orders in the book and the total

:10:06.:10:09.

amount they said they wanted to buy was already at the end of day one

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3.6 times the total amount that were for sale. Straightaway on day one

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they should have seen this was going to be a hot issue and there would be

:10:20.:10:24.

massive demand and they should have readjusted to price. Looking at the

:10:25.:10:27.

National Audit Office document, it says very clearly the government

:10:28.:10:31.

asked their advisers, don't you think we should put the price up?

:10:32.:10:36.

The advisers said no. Vince Cable should not have listened. He spent

:10:37.:10:40.

far too much time relying on other people. Was he had? He was hard. The

:10:41.:10:49.

fund management community who want the cheapest price they can get. He

:10:50.:11:00.

listened far too much to them. The second thing he did was he spent far

:11:01.:11:03.

too much time listening to his advisers, the very banks that have

:11:04.:11:08.

contributed to the financial crisis and been tainted in the past. He

:11:09.:11:14.

relied on them too much. You would not have done anything differently?

:11:15.:11:19.

We would not have sold it. There was a part privatisation in the previous

:11:20.:11:23.

Labour government but times have changed. The report produced by the

:11:24.:11:28.

previous Labour government was pretty much put through in terms of

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changing the regulator environment, getting long-term liabilities of the

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pensions into the Treasury, so the Royal Mail was in a much better

:11:36.:11:41.

position. You would have said no to any sort of sell-off? We did not

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want to sell it off and that is still our position. The government

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sold at too quickly and at the wrong time. The report is a damning

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indictment of the fact that they wanted to get it through for

:11:58.:12:01.

ideological reasons before the next election. Would that have been the

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right thing to do, not to sell it off at all? No, I believe what we

:12:09.:12:12.

will see is a substantially leaner, fitter and more efficient Royal

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Mail. The report states that under commercial management, it will...

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The benefits to Royal Mail should the considerable. My fear is not

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that it should not have been done, but when it is done, it will be

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poorly regulated and run far more for the benefit of shareholders than

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for the population. That is years in the future. I have no problem with

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them selling it but they needed to sell it at the right price. Quite

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clearly, it was sold too cheap. But it was the right thing to do in

:12:48.:12:50.

principle. It was the wrong price and timing. It was driving in the

:12:51.:13:00.

public sector. It just started to thrive. -- it was thriving. The

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Royal Mail needed money for investment. They could have come

:13:09.:13:10.

from profits. They were projected to make all profits this year and next

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year. It was unnecessary to sell it. They sold it cheap. The public

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purse has lost ?750 million on day one. The Business Secretary and

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minister has to explain and apologise. Was it thriving? It was

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recovering. That is what enabled the government to make the tough

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decisions. In terms of what you are calling for today, do you think

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Vince Cable should position his -- consider his position? This is the

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most damning report I have read. He did not take advice and listen to

:13:59.:14:02.

the opposition. He did take the advice, that is the criticism. He

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took the advice from 16 of the 17 investors who were going to be the

:14:08.:14:10.

long-term stability investors and they did not give him the right

:14:11.:14:18.

advice. 12 of them have now sold a large proportion of their

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shareholdings. They came in for quick profit and Vince Cable should

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have known that. The apology is irrelevant. He has proved himself

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incompetent because he was had by the fund management groups. The

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important long-term stable fund management groups, most of them have

:14:38.:14:42.

sold out. He was had by the advisers. The government said to the

:14:43.:14:45.

banks involved don't you think we should raise the price by 20% better

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mark the advisers said, no, there is a strike action. He did not stand

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up. He listened to much to the banks and fund management. He did not

:14:58.:15:02.

stand up and think for himself or stop was he in a position to stand

:15:03.:15:08.

up to them? Michael Fallon has defended the decision saying that it

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was in an environment where industrial action was being

:15:13.:15:17.

threatened and to some extent the environment would not have been

:15:18.:15:21.

right to hold out longer. Change the timing. The report says the

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timescale... It was driven through for ideological and political

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purposes. They were trying to plug a hole in the Chancellor's budget.

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?750 million loss to the taxpayer is something Vince Cable should reflect

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on. Of course Michael Fallon says it was successful. But if I wanted to

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sell anything at below market value, there would be more purchasers than

:15:45.:15:55.

sellers. Overcautious is what they said. Because of the environment out

:15:56.:15:59.

of the recession, the government was not confident enough to sell it

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later. Vince Cable was given advice that the price was on the low side

:16:05.:16:06.

and he chose not to accept the advice. It was very clear at the end

:16:07.:16:12.

of day one, the demand from institutional investors was already

:16:13.:16:20.

a multiple. It was very obvious. The government did ask, can we increase

:16:21.:16:24.

the price by 20p? The banks said, don't do that. It is in the

:16:25.:16:29.

interests of the banks as advisers to protect fund management clients.

:16:30.:16:34.

Massive conflict of interest. Everyone seems to be looking after

:16:35.:16:42.

their own interests. The institutional investors took all the

:16:43.:16:46.

shares and the public and retail investors got very few. What would

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you have done differently in the Green Party. Absolutely not

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privatised the Royal mail. Hopefully this will be the last privatisation

:16:57.:17:02.

of the public services. This is a failed model. There is no magic that

:17:03.:17:06.

comes from private sector management. It means putting public

:17:07.:17:12.

money into private hands. Slashing the pay and conditional workers and

:17:13.:17:19.

it is a failed model. There are no efficiencies. And we have a fraud

:17:20.:17:25.

ridden, deeply dishonest financial sector. Five years after the crash

:17:26.:17:34.

we have failed to make any reforms. They are out for themselves, you

:17:35.:17:39.

admit it. Why did Vince Cable not realise that. Why was he sucked into

:17:40.:17:47.

believing that. He was trying to sell it for ideological reasons

:17:48.:17:50.

because of the next general election. It had to go. But is at

:17:51.:17:58.

the answer to renationalise? Very much so. And there is now a Private

:17:59.:18:03.

Members Bill before Parliament. The privatisation of the railways is

:18:04.:18:08.

costing us more than ?1 billion a year. Given the budget just a few

:18:09.:18:14.

weeks ago said that the Chancellor would borrow billions more than he

:18:15.:18:19.

suggested back in 2010, there will not be any money in the pot to

:18:20.:18:23.

renationalise. We cannot commit to writing blank cheques for that. You

:18:24.:18:30.

could bring the railways back into public hands just by not selling the

:18:31.:18:39.

East Coast line. And ring the contract back into public hands as

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they lapse. You do not need extra money for that. In the case of the

:18:44.:18:48.

Royal mail it would be too costly. The share price is around ?6 per

:18:49.:18:53.

share. We do not know how much money we will have. And the Chancellor has

:18:54.:19:02.

borrowed nearly ?200 billion. It was thriving in the public sector and

:19:03.:19:06.

would have done a good job in the public sector. Thank you very much.

:19:07.:19:15.

Communities Secretary Eric Pickles says he may investigate the London

:19:16.:19:18.

borough of Tower Hamlets after allegations were made against the

:19:19.:19:20.

borough's mayor, Lutfur Rahman, in last night's Panorama programme on

:19:21.:19:28.

the BBC. The mayor, who is Bangladeshi, more than doubled

:19:29.:19:30.

funding recommended by officers for Bengali-run charities. Opposition

:19:31.:19:33.

councillors say they believe the grants were made in return for

:19:34.:19:36.

electoral support, but Mr Rahman strongly denies these accusations.

:19:37.:19:42.

Panorama's John Ware put the allegations to the mayor. You more

:19:43.:19:49.

than doubled the grand officers recommended to Bengali and Somali

:19:50.:19:54.

run organisations and you cut others to help pay for it. That is why the

:19:55.:19:58.

opposition say it is about electoral advantage. What do you say to that.

:19:59.:20:09.

It is untrue. Absolutely untrue. My principal has always been that we

:20:10.:20:13.

will distribute the money to as many organisations as possible as they

:20:14.:20:19.

benefit the community. We're joined now by the former Mayor

:20:20.:20:23.

of London, Ken Livingstone who's a supporter of Lutfur Rahman and the

:20:24.:20:25.

former Local Government minister, Bob Neill. Ken Livingstone, what did

:20:26.:20:33.

you make of those allegations. I think it was a game changing

:20:34.:20:37.

programme. I have watched the programme all my life and that was

:20:38.:20:42.

the first time I fell asleep. 30 minutes of them joining on saying it

:20:43.:20:54.

was a politician winning support. That is what you do as a politician.

:20:55.:20:58.

It was ever thus. That is what you do if your elect did. To dismiss it

:20:59.:21:06.

like that is wrong. This exposed one of the worst examples of malpractice

:21:07.:21:11.

I have seen in local government. And I have been around for 24 years.

:21:12.:21:15.

There is a difference between promoting policies and doing so in a

:21:16.:21:20.

system which does not observe due process. The detail of that

:21:21.:21:24.

programme showed that there are no proper systematic checks and

:21:25.:21:28.

balances. Which there are in other authorities. So there is a problem

:21:29.:21:34.

in Tower Hamlets. This is a guy who has never appeared before the

:21:35.:21:41.

scrutiny committee. What are the allegations of malpractice. There

:21:42.:21:49.

are three issues. The programme, and it is not somehow biased and races,

:21:50.:21:56.

that is absurd. There is a concern about the lack of any audit trail.

:21:57.:22:05.

No audit trail on the changes to the grants which favoured organisations

:22:06.:22:08.

linked to the mayor and his supporters. And also a problem with

:22:09.:22:16.

abuse of Eastlands -- East End life. And also a concern that has come to

:22:17.:22:24.

light with the mayor's officers threatening opposition councillors

:22:25.:22:30.

with standards and quarry. And there has been one case of that where an

:22:31.:22:36.

opposition councillor was wrongly taken to a standards board. Everyone

:22:37.:22:46.

is always referring people to the standards board now. It was done by

:22:47.:22:54.

Lib Dems and Tories against me. Lutfur Rahman has quite a successful

:22:55.:23:00.

record. He has built more social housing for rent than any other

:23:01.:23:04.

local authority. He was the first mayor to introduce the living wage

:23:05.:23:08.

following example I said. He has introduced free school meals for

:23:09.:23:14.

kids. This is one of the poorest boroughs in Britain. Of course he

:23:15.:23:18.

will find groups that support the Somali and Bangladeshi community. He

:23:19.:23:26.

will not fund the bankers down the road, they do not need it. You get a

:23:27.:23:31.

platform to those groups that you have sympathy for more than you

:23:32.:23:35.

think will give you electoral support. But there is an issue of

:23:36.:23:40.

transparency. If there is no audit trail and you cannot see where

:23:41.:23:43.

levels of funding were changed then it does look like malpractice.

:23:44.:23:48.

People can turn up and get access to anything. This is the weakness of

:23:49.:23:52.

the mayoral system. The same allegations were put to me. That is

:23:53.:23:58.

why I think that the mayoral system is flawed. When you have a normal

:23:59.:24:03.

council you have members of your group watching over your shoulder.

:24:04.:24:06.

If you do anything wrong they will remove you. You had your assembly

:24:07.:24:13.

scrutinising you. They can only ask questions. But Lutfur Rahman is

:24:14.:24:19.

standing up and not only refusing to appear -- in front of the scrutiny

:24:20.:24:26.

council but you also had him saying it is against his human rights for

:24:27.:24:28.

him to be obliged to answer questions. You cannot defend that. I

:24:29.:24:35.

did a weekly press conference and answered everything. Boris does one

:24:36.:24:42.

once per year. Is it not ridiculous that he is not prepared to be

:24:43.:24:47.

scrutinised. He is prepared to be scrutinised. Tower Hamlets is very

:24:48.:24:58.

political. The Labour Party was deeply divided. He was unfairly

:24:59.:25:02.

forced out of the Labour Party. I hope that things will come down and

:25:03.:25:05.

we will bring people back together again. You are very close to him, he

:25:06.:25:16.

supported you in election. Do not pretend you're an independent

:25:17.:25:22.

observer on this. He is going well beyond anything I have ever seen in

:25:23.:25:27.

local government. He is carrying out exactly the kind of policies I ran

:25:28.:25:33.

on in the last election. He has set up an energy body so people do not

:25:34.:25:37.

have to pay so much for their energy. He provided free school

:25:38.:25:42.

meals. The way they moved money around, they made major changes to

:25:43.:25:48.

grants. Tower Hamlets, let me make this point, we cannot afford in a

:25:49.:25:57.

diverse city like London to have any politician of any political party

:25:58.:25:59.

trying to play one community against another. Is that what was happening.

:26:00.:26:06.

The Merit's own legal officer said they were in breach of their

:26:07.:26:15.

position. Before Lutfur Rahman, that was the case. The Labour group used

:26:16.:26:20.

to play one section of the community against another. What about the

:26:21.:26:26.

model itself. Do you think that directly elected mayors have too

:26:27.:26:33.

much power. Yes. Ken says it after he has filled the post! The reason I

:26:34.:26:41.

stood is if you have to have one you want an honest person like me. It

:26:42.:26:47.

can work. It does require checks and balances. That requires a genuinely

:26:48.:26:55.

independent office. That is no longer the case said Tower Hamlets

:26:56.:26:58.

because many experienced people have been moved out. You have to have the

:26:59.:27:01.

chance for the other political parties generally to challenge and

:27:02.:27:07.

question you. You are saying that the model as it exists is not

:27:08.:27:12.

correct because there is not enough scrutiny. We need to put in more

:27:13.:27:17.

checks and balances. But it can be made to work. Is it a good idea?

:27:18.:27:25.

Absolutely not. It puts too much power in hands of person. Many

:27:26.:27:30.

councils have gone towards the Cabinet system which is taking power

:27:31.:27:34.

away from local councillors. And people have too lobby at council

:27:35.:27:41.

meetings. We need to go back to a model where you can go to your

:27:42.:27:46.

locally elected person who can really make a difference. The point

:27:47.:27:50.

about a directly elected mayor is engaging the public. If you have a

:27:51.:27:55.

charismatic person they will achieve far more. Ken Livingstone, he has

:27:56.:28:01.

achieved a certain amount when it came to housing. You could not do

:28:02.:28:05.

that in a cabinet system. What you also need is properly funded local

:28:06.:28:10.

government which we have not got. Where people can go to their local

:28:11.:28:15.

councillor and they can make a change. There are directly elect did

:28:16.:28:22.

mayors in this country who do a good job. And they run the system

:28:23.:28:28.

properly and within their council constitution. There are checks and

:28:29.:28:33.

balances which they adhere to. This is becoming a rogue authority. It

:28:34.:28:38.

all relies on one person and that is a bad idea. This is an American

:28:39.:28:44.

system dropped in contrary to all our normal traditions. We need to go

:28:45.:28:49.

back to proper councils were committees have real scrutiny and

:28:50.:28:55.

willpower. There is a bit of the leopard changing his spots there.

:28:56.:29:03.

You were quite keen on that system. And quite frequently argued to

:29:04.:29:07.

reduce the powers of the Assembly as I remember. You rode roughshod over

:29:08.:29:17.

the Assembly. They could not do anything about it! Bob Neill, did

:29:18.:29:27.

you ever think Ken Livingstone made funding decisions according to the

:29:28.:29:34.

voter base. I think he made some daft decisions but I did not put his

:29:35.:29:38.

behaviour anywhere in the league that we see in Tower Hamlets. There

:29:39.:29:41.

were difficulties but there was an older trail. That threw up the

:29:42.:29:48.

things that went seriously wrong with funding decisions in the London

:29:49.:29:54.

Development Agency 's. But there was an audit trail for it to be

:29:55.:29:57.

discovered. And what about Boris Johnson. He is exactly the same with

:29:58.:30:04.

proper audit trail. In Tower Hamlets the audit trails are not there and

:30:05.:30:09.

the system is being abused. I think it is as bad as any case I have seen

:30:10.:30:15.

in my career. Now, the MP Nigel Evans and former Deputy Speaker took

:30:16.:30:19.

to the the witness box yesterday in his trial where he stands accused of

:30:20.:30:22.

one rape, two indecent assaults, five sexual assaults and one

:30:23.:30:25.

attempted sexual assault. He denies all the charges. Nigel Evans told

:30:26.:30:29.

the jury of his absolute hell and said he felt embarrassed about

:30:30.:30:32.

having to discuss the allegations with the police. Ed Thomas is at

:30:33.:30:39.

Preston Crown Court for us. Ed, tell us what's been happening in court.

:30:40.:30:45.

Nigel Evans has left the dock for a third day to take the stand to

:30:46.:30:51.

defend himself. He has described his life has held since the allegations

:30:52.:30:55.

were made. He said that to have yourselves sullied in this way is

:30:56.:30:58.

awful. He said he was embarrassed after his arrest and in a deep sense

:30:59.:31:04.

of shock. He could not believe it was happening. With his voice

:31:05.:31:09.

breaking, he looked directly at the juror 's and said, nobody wants

:31:10.:31:12.

their private life to be brought up in this way. It is incredibly

:31:13.:31:17.

difficult. He talked about what he thought was an attraction between

:31:18.:31:21.

himself and one of these alleged victims. He said this man was

:31:22.:31:26.

incredibly flirtatious. They would hold hands. He said there was a

:31:27.:31:29.

connection between them. He added that there is no fool like an old

:31:30.:31:35.

fool. He is now being cross-examined in court. He is being asked about to

:31:36.:31:40.

alleged incidents where the MP tried to put his hand down two young

:31:41.:31:46.

Westminster workers trousers. He told the court, I have no

:31:47.:31:48.

recollection of this happening. Asked if he was a lecherous man, you

:31:49.:31:54.

said, you are trying to make me out to be a cross between Alan Clark,

:31:55.:32:01.

Oscar Wilde and Benny Hill. What is expected to happen over the next few

:32:02.:32:06.

days? Nigel Evans is still giving evidence now. We expect him to be

:32:07.:32:10.

cross-examined for the rest of the day. The case has another week or so

:32:11.:32:16.

to go. More witnesses will be called in defence for Nigel Evans. Then the

:32:17.:32:20.

summing up from the prosecution defence and the judge. Then the jury

:32:21.:32:26.

will be sent out to consider its verdict. Nigel Evans is accused of

:32:27.:32:30.

using his political influence to take sexual advantage of seven young

:32:31.:32:35.

men. The MP denies all of the allegations against him.

:32:36.:32:44.

So, the latest major assessment of climate change published by UN

:32:45.:32:46.

experts says there's overwhelming evidence that its impact is already

:32:47.:32:50.

being felt across the world and it's likely to get worse. And that's

:32:51.:32:53.

consistent with other recent studies from leading scientists. So, what

:32:54.:32:55.

are politicians doing about it? Well, it wasn't so long ago that it

:32:56.:32:59.

seemed the entire political class had turned a shade of green. David

:33:00.:33:02.

Cameron was pictured being pulled by huskies across the Arctic. Once

:33:03.:33:05.

Prime Minister, he promised this would be the greenest government

:33:06.:33:10.

ever. But by the autumn of last year, he was reported to have

:33:11.:33:14.

ordered aides to get rid of the "green clap" which critics said were

:33:15.:33:17.

increasing the cost of living and hurting British business. -- green

:33:18.:33:25.

crap. The ECO or Energy Company Obligation scheme has been scaled

:33:26.:33:29.

back. The strike price promised to generators of electricity produced

:33:30.:33:32.

from wind or solar energy has been reduced. And the fuel duty escalator

:33:33.:33:36.

that would have added 2p to a litre of petrol this year has been

:33:37.:33:40.

cancelled. We're joined now by Tim Yeo the Conservative Chair of the

:33:41.:33:42.

Energy and Climate Change Select Committee and the Sun columnist

:33:43.:33:47.

Trevor Kavanagh. Welcome to both of you. Natalie Bennett, we heard the

:33:48.:33:55.

IPCC report and it was apocalyptic and some people's eyes and alarmist.

:33:56.:34:02.

Despite that David Cameron is scrapping green levies and scrapping

:34:03.:34:06.

the fuel duty escalator. People are not into green policies. I do not

:34:07.:34:12.

think it is true. I am not sure the green issues are responsible for

:34:13.:34:18.

polls. We have had two reports saying the debate over climate

:34:19.:34:21.

change is over, the reality is here and we need to take action. It is a

:34:22.:34:27.

tragedy since the 2008 climate change act when we had cross-party

:34:28.:34:32.

agreement on action, we have slipped backwards. It is an indictment of

:34:33.:34:37.

this government. What do you say to that? This government has set the

:34:38.:34:42.

toughest budget for carbon emissions of any country in the world. It was

:34:43.:34:47.

made three years ago, the decision. That was a very challenging decision

:34:48.:34:51.

taken with some courage by David Cameron with the support of the

:34:52.:34:55.

whole coalition. If you look specifically at the renewable

:34:56.:34:59.

technology referred to in the introduction, solar, wind, this

:35:00.:35:06.

government has set aside ?7 billion by 2020 to support those

:35:07.:35:08.

technologies through subsidies. Everyone understands it is right the

:35:09.:35:13.

strike price, the price guaranteed to the suppliers of renewable

:35:14.:35:16.

energy, it should come down as the technologies get more advanced. I am

:35:17.:35:22.

hopeful that by 2020, we may find that things like solar do not need a

:35:23.:35:27.

subsidy at all. Can David Cameron claimant is the greenest government

:35:28.:35:32.

ever? Judged by the criteria of previous governments, he can. Now we

:35:33.:35:36.

have this information about how bad it could be unless the effects of

:35:37.:35:41.

emissions are mitigated, is this the green escarpment ever and could it

:35:42.:35:46.

be better? It is greener than all of those that went before. If you take

:35:47.:35:51.

EU discussions about what the targets for 2030 should be, the

:35:52.:35:54.

British Government is one of those in the lead pressing for challenging

:35:55.:35:59.

targets. That is Britain using its influence to try and get Europe to

:36:00.:36:03.

move in a greener direction. That is simply not true. The British garment

:36:04.:36:08.

is a drag on those negotiations. Let us look at what is happening on the

:36:09.:36:13.

ground. Figures recently, the contribution from renewables to

:36:14.:36:16.

British energy compared to 28 countries, we can proudly claim we

:36:17.:36:20.

are ahead of Luxembourg and Malta. We are behind everybody else.

:36:21.:36:25.

Looking at the report of the echo, we have cut back a programme

:36:26.:36:32.

insulating people's homes. This government has failed on every

:36:33.:36:35.

policy measure and not delivered and it is promoting shale gas.

:36:36.:36:42.

Last November, your paper, the Sun, it ran the headline, Cameron

:36:43.:36:46.

switches from concerned green to trueblue Tory. Why isn't your paper

:36:47.:36:53.

taking the threat of climate change seriously I think we are taking it

:36:54.:37:00.

seriously. It is unfortunately for the green movement and the

:37:01.:37:03.

Armageddon scenario, they have had a problem of bad timing and poor

:37:04.:37:08.

timing. It happened during a period when there had been no global

:37:09.:37:14.

warming for 16 years also. Also, the world is going through the worst

:37:15.:37:18.

recession and the last thing people want is the cost of imposing the

:37:19.:37:22.

measures everybody is demanding. As for tactics, I think the profit

:37:23.:37:30.

looked at -- the apocalyptic nature coupled with rather dodgy

:37:31.:37:32.

statistics, if not fiddled statistics, I think that gave the

:37:33.:37:42.

green movement a very bad start. The idea of the seas rising by several

:37:43.:37:46.

feet or metres, this is not happening. It may be happening by

:37:47.:37:51.

inches but not metres. Do you accept credible to was lost because of

:37:52.:37:55.

inaccurate statistics? -- credibility was lost. The levels are

:37:56.:38:04.

rising and the earth is warming. We have the facts now and the

:38:05.:38:08.

factors... They were wrong before? Will a macro there were minor

:38:09.:38:14.

errors. -- there were minor errors. The fact is, what we actually need

:38:15.:38:25.

to do we are losing thousands of potential jobs. The potential of

:38:26.:38:30.

things like the energy bill revolution which could take the

:38:31.:38:33.

money from carbon taxes and insulated every home in Britain

:38:34.:38:39.

which are needed, create 200,000 jobs and cut carbon emissions.

:38:40.:38:42.

Things like tidal energy. We have the potential to develop a British

:38:43.:38:47.

industry and the government is not creating the policy environment to

:38:48.:38:51.

do that. They have not got the message about how it could save

:38:52.:38:57.

money later on. Indeed. In the very short-term, dependence on fossil

:38:58.:39:02.

fuels is slightly cheaper. Looking ahead ten, 15 years, the probability

:39:03.:39:08.

is carbon tax, through taxes or emissions trading, will be much

:39:09.:39:12.

higher. Those countries which invest in low carbon technology will do the

:39:13.:39:15.

right thing environmentally but benefit economically because their

:39:16.:39:21.

costs will come down. Why has David Cameron scrap the green levies?

:39:22.:39:26.

There has been some adjustment to fairly detailed policies. Britain

:39:27.:39:31.

remains committed to the same level of carbon emission reductions as it

:39:32.:39:35.

was two years ago. The use of the phrase green crap is not one that is

:39:36.:39:42.

proven to be the Prime Minister. It is popular! It was leaked by a Tory

:39:43.:39:50.

aide. People are quite rightly worried about energy bills. They

:39:51.:39:54.

can't afford it. Anything that will bring them down will be welcome. If

:39:55.:39:59.

we want Britain to have secure affordable energy, the right ways to

:40:00.:40:04.

broaden our energy mix so it includes nuclear and shale gas and

:40:05.:40:08.

also a big element of renewables. Your view is short-term. No, not at

:40:09.:40:17.

all. The crying wolf, the Armageddon apocalyptic society betrayed by the

:40:18.:40:22.

green movement may or may not happen. The overwhelming evidence is

:40:23.:40:27.

it will happen unless the effects are mitigated. It is computer model

:40:28.:40:30.

generated. We know there are some signs of global warming. However,

:40:31.:40:35.

the human race is infinitely adaptable. Also so things could be

:40:36.:40:41.

considered. The costs involved in the measures required to deal with

:40:42.:40:45.

the flooding that is being forecast, the heatwaves, they are effectively

:40:46.:40:51.

beyond the resources of the world to deal with, especially when half of

:40:52.:40:56.

the world are totally ignoring these apparent signs of warming. The

:40:57.:41:02.

Chinese are in the lead in recognising the lead for low carbon

:41:03.:41:05.

technology. In America, California has introduced its own emissions

:41:06.:41:11.

trading systems. This is a myth. There was a time when you could

:41:12.:41:15.

argue certain parts of Asia were in denial. It is no longer the case.

:41:16.:41:20.

Quite soon we will find more modern technology giving people a

:41:21.:41:24.

competitive advantage economically is being adopted in China, South

:41:25.:41:28.

Korea, the US. Britain may be left behind. Written may be left --

:41:29.:41:33.

Britain is being left behind and that is an indictment of the current

:41:34.:41:39.

government. Christine Lagarde, she was asked what kept her awake at

:41:40.:41:42.

night and she said, we are not doing enough about climate change. Ban

:41:43.:41:47.

Ki-moon, the UN Secretary General, he said, the heat is on, we must

:41:48.:41:53.

act. They are taking strategic long view of the world's future and

:41:54.:41:59.

saying, we are not doing enough. Do you claim people are not listening

:42:00.:42:02.

because the government has not been as committed as it says and there

:42:03.:42:06.

have been mixed messages? Is that why many people will agree with

:42:07.:42:10.

Trevor? The government is sending out messages it is no big deal.

:42:11.:42:15.

There is also the other factor that we have a media dominated by a few

:42:16.:42:18.

extremely rich right-wing tycoons who have a huge interest. In the

:42:19.:42:28.

non-Anglo parts of the world where you do not have them, we would not

:42:29.:42:34.

be having this debate. Let Trevor answer that. I think the green lobby

:42:35.:42:40.

has had the lion's share of the debate. To the point where it has

:42:41.:42:45.

tried to terrify people into submission on things like windmills

:42:46.:42:48.

which are complete waste of money. Solar energy I agree could become

:42:49.:42:52.

the answer to our problems. There is nothing wrong with fracking. Low

:42:53.:42:56.

carbon emission gas is much better than oil and coal. In the last

:42:57.:43:03.

month, the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, Michael Gove, they have

:43:04.:43:07.

all confirmed their acceptance of the science of climate change. They

:43:08.:43:10.

just don't want to pay to do anything about it. David Cameron has

:43:11.:43:18.

been pressing hard in the EU for 40% of carbon cuts. The reason why they

:43:19.:43:26.

had to come out and explicitly state they believed in climate change was

:43:27.:43:30.

because there actions seem to demonstrate they did not. Even in

:43:31.:43:35.

your case, you said you were deselected because of disagreements

:43:36.:43:41.

over York constituency, gay marriage and climate change. -- your

:43:42.:43:46.

constituency. If you had your time again, would you be as stridently

:43:47.:43:55.

pro-green? I would be more so. The fact is, of course there are people

:43:56.:43:58.

in Britain not yet persuaded by these arguments. That is why it is

:43:59.:44:01.

incumbent on people who understand to get out there and make the

:44:02.:44:09.

persuasive argument. The polls reinforce Trevor's view. Three

:44:10.:44:14.

points behind where you were in 2009 in the European elections. You are

:44:15.:44:17.

failing more to get your message across. What we are seeing with the

:44:18.:44:25.

polls is and prompted result. The Lib Dem result prompted. Quite a lot

:44:26.:44:37.

of... You are unprompted in 2009. We're working hard in our target

:44:38.:44:43.

regions. That is what we are aiming to do, let more MEPs, send greens to

:44:44.:44:50.

Europe. It is never persuasive to say the media are the people at

:44:51.:44:54.

fault. We have to be more persuasive and determined. That is why I am

:44:55.:44:57.

pleased we have a Prime Minister, Chancellor who are out there

:44:58.:45:00.

determined to see Britain decarbonise its economy. David

:45:01.:45:09.

Cameron is going to have a husky customer probably not any time soon.

:45:10.:45:16.

You might have noticed by her accent when she talks, Natalie was born and

:45:17.:45:20.

brought up in Australia. But can foreign-born politicians make it in

:45:21.:45:25.

British politics? Here's Adam. The socialite Nancy Astor was the

:45:26.:45:32.

first woman to take up her seat in Parliament and she was also an

:45:33.:45:35.

American. Here is another one. Connecticut born Brooks Newmark has

:45:36.:45:40.

since dropped his US citizenship. When I first stood here and not of

:45:41.:45:46.

the Labour candidates were saying do you want an American representatives

:45:47.:45:54.

in Parliament. Someone said I thought there was an American

:45:55.:45:58.

standing there. I said yes but I moved here when I was nine. A lot of

:45:59.:46:04.

people make their lives here and I am no different. That person was

:46:05.:46:08.

expecting some Texan in a hat. It was the year of George bush and that

:46:09.:46:15.

is what they expected. And we once had a Canadian prime minister.

:46:16.:46:22.

Andrew Bonar Law, one of the least famous residence ever of ten Downing

:46:23.:46:28.

St. He entered the Coalition with the Liberals. Nowadays it turns out

:46:29.:46:37.

we have loads of foreign-born MPs. Their heritage rarely comes up as an

:46:38.:46:43.

issue. But for once it has defined his political career. My parents

:46:44.:46:47.

were anti-apartheid activists in Pretoria and my whole background

:46:48.:46:52.

with them being jailed and fined and police raiding our house and then

:46:53.:46:56.

forced into exile is very much rooted in that. Look closely and you

:46:57.:47:03.

will see a young Peter Hain at this anti-apartheid protest in the 1970s.

:47:04.:47:10.

Coming from outside British society, you're not trapped by the class

:47:11.:47:13.

system. I was able to mix with Prince Charles and equally go home

:47:14.:47:21.

to my local rugby club. There have been so many migrant MPs that we

:47:22.:47:25.

hardly have time to discuss the New Zealander Bryan Gould who challenged

:47:26.:47:28.

John Smith to the Labour leadership in 1992. Then Boris Johnson, born in

:47:29.:47:35.

New York. He occasionally takes out his American passport. Even though

:47:36.:47:43.

he threatened to throw it away. And I'm joined by MPs Gisela Stuart

:47:44.:47:46.

and Nadhim Zahawi. Welcome. And Natalie Bennett is still with us.

:47:47.:47:50.

And, guess what? They were all born abroad! Tell us how you came to live

:47:51.:47:58.

here. I arrived 40 years ago unable to speak English. I served the

:47:59.:48:02.

German apprenticeship and someone offered me a job even though I did

:48:03.:48:07.

not speak the language. I did a three-day week. My parents thought I

:48:08.:48:13.

would not last. Were you surprised you lasted so long. I lasted, then I

:48:14.:48:20.

went to Holland and came back here. So yes I am utterly surprised. But

:48:21.:48:24.

what I find extraordinary, I would never say I'm English but I am a

:48:25.:48:30.

dish. That is a wonderful unifying thing. What about your experience?

:48:31.:48:36.

We came here in the late 1970s. My father was Kurdish. Born in

:48:37.:48:42.

Baghdad, pretty hard to live there for a Kurdish family. We came here,

:48:43.:48:51.

at school I had to try to construct sentences in my head and then let

:48:52.:48:57.

them out. It was so hard to learn the language. I have had the most

:48:58.:49:03.

extraordinary life here. The gift I have had here is freedom and

:49:04.:49:07.

opportunity. I made the best of both, founding a business and taking

:49:08.:49:14.

it public. I became a member of Parliament in a very middle-class

:49:15.:49:23.

white area. It has not been an obstacle for either of you. I have

:49:24.:49:28.

the old constituency of Neville 's Chamberlain and I occasionally have

:49:29.:49:33.

imagined conversations with him. Saying it is all right, democratic.

:49:34.:49:41.

I came in 1999 and did not have many language issues! I speak fluent

:49:42.:49:48.

Australian! I had to be careful about the use of the word long. But

:49:49.:49:55.

I came as a professional journalist. I had been to Britain before and

:49:56.:50:00.

loved the place. And back and settled and cannot imagine wanting

:50:01.:50:04.

to leave. And how did you make the leap to politician. In 2006 it was

:50:05.:50:10.

the New Year resolution. I looked at the state of the world and wanted to

:50:11.:50:15.

do something. I never read it did it would lead me to this spot. It just

:50:16.:50:19.

happened. We always talking about the lack of women in politics. Do

:50:20.:50:25.

you think that is more of a barrier than your background in that sense.

:50:26.:50:29.

When I was selected by the Labour Party they said it is the fact that

:50:30.:50:34.

you spent ten years in Manchester that you have to keep quiet about!

:50:35.:50:41.

But to this day I do feel slightly foreign. When we talk about

:50:42.:50:46.

education, I do not have those class hang-ups. I cannot get worked up

:50:47.:50:54.

about a select system. And I know there is an element that I do not

:50:55.:50:59.

understand. Peter Hain made the same point. You're not born into the same

:51:00.:51:04.

class system and do not have the history of it. That is probably

:51:05.:51:11.

true. For me we fell on hard times, we came here, the bank took at home

:51:12.:51:18.

and a lot of bad things happen. But what allowed me to get up and try

:51:19.:51:24.

again is that we had a pretty decent education. That was partly back in

:51:25.:51:32.

Iraq and then in the UK I was lucky because my father had been in the UK

:51:33.:51:38.

before and was educated so there was already that link to the UK. But the

:51:39.:51:46.

rail differentiate is education. We do not have the baggage of the class

:51:47.:51:49.

system. There is not that last ceiling in many ways. You can just

:51:50.:51:54.

walk into a room and talk to everyone equally. I think that is

:51:55.:52:00.

one of the uses of an Australian accent, that it is entirely

:52:01.:52:04.

classless. But the gender thing is something I do think about, of

:52:05.:52:12.

myself as a female politician not as an Australian politician. I'm the

:52:13.:52:16.

first woman party leader to take over from another woman arty leader.

:52:17.:52:23.

When I walk around Westminster it is horrifying how male dominated it is.

:52:24.:52:29.

Not just members of Parliament but it still feels like a male dominated

:52:30.:52:33.

place. In terms of any prejudice, did you come across any in terms of

:52:34.:52:42.

your background. In 1997 I had a conversation with a Tory voter who

:52:43.:52:48.

said that she would vote for me Cosmo German would put up with

:52:49.:52:56.

nonsense regarding law and order! Now how important is image to the

:52:57.:52:59.

success of a political leader? That's one of the themes of the

:53:00.:53:03.

satirical play, The Confessions of Gordon Brown. After its success at

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the Labour Party conference last year, it's about to start a run in

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London's West End. In a moment we'll be joined by the play's creator,

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Kevin Toolis. First here's a clip of Gordon Brown, played by Ian Grieve,

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pondering on the importance of image.

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You are on. I always knew him and that other all

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the, in Duncan Smith, what is he up to now. Nothing much. You never read

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about them in the papers. Who wants to see a baldly on the front page.

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The people will not vote for oldies. Instead of the old Tories it was the

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Conservative and baldly political suicide party. Broken to pieces. The

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Tories had no leader and the people knew it. The world was a poster. --

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but are oyster. And I'm joined by Kevin Toolis, the

:54:28.:54:30.

writer of The Confessions of Gordon Brown and John McTernan who used to

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advise Tony Blair on political strategy. What about Ed Miliband. I

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think he is not a viable prime Minster. Politics is a cruel sport.

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It is a narrow trench where good men die every day. And then shameless

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charlatans steal all the prizes. And then there is a negative prize! But

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he is not bald! He is tall which is a requirement. But his image after

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four years, he has not been able to change that kind of geeky image that

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people have of him and I think that is a fatal flaw and he will not

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succeed. Do you agree. I think that is a ridiculous invented test, that

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you're mad to look like a prime minister before you become one. Tony

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Blair and David Cameron are really the only ones who actually did that.

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Margaret Thatcher, Robert be the most influential. The Tories lead

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Margaret Thatcher in popularity. How'd you explain people like Hague

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and Michael foot. Why did they not become prime minister. Because their

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politics were crazy. The quality of your enemies is also essential to

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your success. William Hague always looked strange, he was never able to

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escape that image of him as a 16-year-old. He and Ian Duncan

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Smith, those were fatal choices. Political parties have lost some

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plans for political suicide. And that applies to the Labour Party and

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Labour Party in Scotland as well. It does weaken the potential victory of

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that party. In a televisual age there has to be something of an

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aura, a style over substance because that makes it easier to get the

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message across. Ian Duncan Smith and William Hague Michael Howard, they

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all lost elections because they had wrong policies. Ed Miliband has been

:56:50.:56:59.

down in the polls. But David Cameron is no more popular than when he was

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elected. The fundamentals are the fundamentals. Ed Miliband has

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policies that connect with real people. When he is out there

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speaking, he is like John Major. 41% of people think Ed Miliband is

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strange. You get stupid answers to stupid question. 38% of the

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population are going to vote Labour. Is it not about the potential prime

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minister. They have got to be able to see the leader of the party of

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the future prime minister. They see the party of the future government.

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As an instrument to oust an unpopular government. In the end it

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is policies and not personalities. The stature of the leader is a

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hugely decisive factor. The coming election is hard to call. But the

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notion that you could just be a nobody. And have negative ratings

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and would somehow not matter, of course it matters. I think with Ed

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Miliband his problem is he is not having any strong policies, he's not

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trying to offend anyone. He's just staying quite and not say anything

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radical and hope to fall back into office. That is the problem for

:58:28.:58:34.

Labour. Well the opinion polls are closing. This latest poll, just 9%

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of the population think Ed Miliband is a strong leader. You cannot just

:58:42.:58:46.

ignore all that content in the opinion polls. That's all for today.

:58:47.:58:51.

Thanks to our guests. Goodbye.

:58:52.:58:57.

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