Browse content similar to 01/04/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. Sold off on the | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
cheap - that's the verdict of the public spending watchdog on the | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
privatisation of Royal Mail. It's now worth billions of pounds more | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
than its original price tag. Directly- elected mayors were | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
supposed to transform local democracy. But do they place too | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
much power in one person's hands? David Cameron promised the greenest | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
government ever, but has it lived up to its billing? | :01:03. | :01:09. | |
And Bonar Law, the Canadian-born British Prime Minister - proof that | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
you can get on in politics here if you have a foreign accent? | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
All that in the next hour. And with us for the whole programme today is | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
the Australian-born leader of the Green Party, Natalie Bennett. | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
Welcome to the programme. Let's start by talking veg. Fruit and veg, | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
actually. The Government's being advised that five a day might not be | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
enough and that we'd be even healthier if we ate seven a day. The | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
advice comes from a study of over 65,000 men and women which indicated | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
the more fruit and vegetables people ate, the less likely they were to | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
die, at any given age. One of the study's authors, Dr Jenny Mindell, | :01:49. | :01:55. | |
joins us now. Is it much up his surprise that if you eat more and | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
veg you will have a healthier lifestyle? -- is it much of a | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
surprise? We wanted to ask two questions. Is there a benefit if you | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
are having some, even if not five a day? The answer was yes. Is there | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
more benefit if you eat more than five a day? The answer was yes. What | :02:18. | :02:31. | |
-- what is the extra benefit? The extra benefit tween five and seven | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
is a bit less than between nine and two but it was still substantial -- | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
between none and two. People who had seven or more portions had a 42% | :02:43. | :02:52. | |
reduction in risk of dying of anything compared to those eating | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
less than one portion. We also found evidence it help reduce cancer | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
deaths and heart disease and strokes. Many people struggle to eat | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
five portions. Are you setting a potential target that is | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
unachievable? We are not setting a target. That is not our place. We | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
are showing that whatever you are eating, if you can manage to eat | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
more fruit and vegetables, particularly vegetables, it is | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
better for you. It needs to be more afraid -- more affordable and | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
available. At the moment, junk food, high fat and sugar food, they are | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
all around us. The industry spends billions advertising to children. We | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
need fruit and vegetables to be advertised. These are the foods that | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
are not quite as easy to get hold of. Would you like the government to | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
change its target? What the government needs to do is introduce | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
policies to make it easier for people to eat more fruit and | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
vegetables. The first step is getting one and -- one in four | :04:04. | :04:12. | |
adults who are not eating anything to eat some everyday. Five was set | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
before it was considered a reasonable target and we are showing | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
that for people who are eating five a day there may be even more benefit | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
if they increase that. I am not suggesting the targets are changed, | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
just the policies. You mean public health policies, awareness | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
campaigns. Not awareness campaigns. Just telling people does not do very | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
much except increase inequalities. Fruit and veg are much more | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
expensive here than in many other countries. In Mediterranean | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
countries, they would be laughing and thinking it was an April fool | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
story because most people in many of these countries already eat far more | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
fruit and vegetables than we do. The price needs to come down. Sugary | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
drinks and high fat and high salt snack foods need to be more | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
expensive. The advertising needs to be the other way round, promoting | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
fruit and vegetables. Thank you very much. Sugar was mentioned. There is | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
quite a lot of sugar in quite a lot of fruit. There is so much | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
contradictory dietary advice. Are we now saying it is all right to eat | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
lots of fruit with high levels of sugar? Looking at the detail of what | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
the scientists say, vegetables is top and fruit is next and everything | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
else is well behind it. It is important we do not eat up | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
individual people. We have to look at the model of why our society... | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
We are not any different to the Mediterranean countries, we are not | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
different people. We have a difference is done, -- different | :05:51. | :05:58. | |
system, supermarket -based. We import more than 90% of the fruit we | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
eat. It is expensive. When our currency went down against the euro, | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
there was a leap in terms of the poorest 20% of people stopping | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
eating fruit because they could not afford it. We have to look at the | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
long working hours culture which means people think they do not have | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
time to cook. We have to look at the structural situation. It is about | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
education then? There needs to be education in terms of cooking food | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
which would cut down the cost but it takes more time. it does. Improving | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
cooking in schools is an important issue but it is important we look at | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
the structure of society which is destined to make us unhealthy which | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
creates huge costs for the NHS. We were told for years to cut down on | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
levels of fat, particularly saturated fat. Now we are told that | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
there are good fats and bad fats and that sugar is the devil in the diet. | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
You can understand why people are sceptical about the endless advice | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
about how they should eat and what they should eat. There has been a | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
lot of bad advice. We know that if eat things as close to how they came | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
out of the field as possible, that is the way to go. It is quite | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
simple. We have to create the framework to enable people to do | :07:19. | :07:26. | |
that. What would the Green Party do? We want to restore market gardens | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
around towns and cities. Would it reduce the cost quest to mark it | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
would create jobs and help the economy overall so it is part of a | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
broader package -- would it reduce the costs? We need a whole range of | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
things. There are too many people in our society who have to buy the | :07:48. | :07:49. | |
cheapest thing which is the worst thing. Thank you very much. | :07:50. | :08:00. | |
The sale of Royal Mail would be good for customers, staff and taxpayers, | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
ministers told us last autumn. But now the National Audit Office | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
criticised the timing of the sell-off, the Government's cautious | :08:07. | :08:08. | |
approach to pricing the offer and failure to hold back some of the | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
holding for later sale. The shares were sold at ?3.30, but on the first | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
day of trading they had risen to ?4.45, a rise of 38%. Five months | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
on, the price had risen by 72% to ?6.15 a share. The difference in | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
value between the shares when they were sold and now is around ?1.5 | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
billion. The National Audit Office concludes that the Government could | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
have achieved better value for the taxpayer. The Business Secretary | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
Vince Cable had this to say this morning. He was asked about the | :08:43. | :08:53. | |
report as he left Downing Street. Were you juiced by the City over | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
Royal Mail? Absolutely not. I will be dealing with it in Parliament -- | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
where you Tube at? Unfortunately no minister from the | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
Department for business one of a -- Department for business was | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
available. I wonder why. Where are you all hiding? I'm joined now by | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
the Shadow Business Minister Ian Murray and the City commentator, | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
Louise Cooper. Well done to the two of you for coming on. Maybe people | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
did not want to defend this decision. How much do we think | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
taxpayers lost here? It is always difficult to tell. About ?1.5 | :09:32. | :09:39. | |
billion. They lost ?750 million on the first day of trading which is | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
quite an achievement. With the benefit of hindsight, how could the | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
government have done it differently? I think the first thing that very | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
early on in the book building process, when the process starts, by | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
the end of day one, institutional investors, the fund management | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
groups, they had come in and put orders in the book and the total | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
amount they said they wanted to buy was already at the end of day one | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
3.6 times the total amount that were for sale. Straightaway on day one | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
they should have seen this was going to be a hot issue and there would be | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
massive demand and they should have readjusted to price. Looking at the | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
National Audit Office document, it says very clearly the government | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
asked their advisers, don't you think we should put the price up? | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
The advisers said no. Vince Cable should not have listened. He spent | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
far too much time relying on other people. Was he had? He was hard. The | :10:41. | :10:49. | |
fund management community who want the cheapest price they can get. He | :10:50. | :11:00. | |
listened far too much to them. The second thing he did was he spent far | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
too much time listening to his advisers, the very banks that have | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
contributed to the financial crisis and been tainted in the past. He | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
relied on them too much. You would not have done anything differently? | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
We would not have sold it. There was a part privatisation in the previous | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
Labour government but times have changed. The report produced by the | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
previous Labour government was pretty much put through in terms of | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
changing the regulator environment, getting long-term liabilities of the | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
pensions into the Treasury, so the Royal Mail was in a much better | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
position. You would have said no to any sort of sell-off? We did not | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
want to sell it off and that is still our position. The government | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
sold at too quickly and at the wrong time. The report is a damning | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
indictment of the fact that they wanted to get it through for | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
ideological reasons before the next election. Would that have been the | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
right thing to do, not to sell it off at all? No, I believe what we | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
will see is a substantially leaner, fitter and more efficient Royal | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
Mail. The report states that under commercial management, it will... | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
The benefits to Royal Mail should the considerable. My fear is not | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
that it should not have been done, but when it is done, it will be | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
poorly regulated and run far more for the benefit of shareholders than | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
for the population. That is years in the future. I have no problem with | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
them selling it but they needed to sell it at the right price. Quite | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
clearly, it was sold too cheap. But it was the right thing to do in | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
principle. It was the wrong price and timing. It was driving in the | :12:51. | :13:00. | |
public sector. It just started to thrive. -- it was thriving. The | :13:01. | :13:08. | |
Royal Mail needed money for investment. They could have come | :13:09. | :13:10. | |
from profits. They were projected to make all profits this year and next | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
year. It was unnecessary to sell it. They sold it cheap. The public | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
purse has lost ?750 million on day one. The Business Secretary and | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
minister has to explain and apologise. Was it thriving? It was | :13:26. | :13:36. | |
recovering. That is what enabled the government to make the tough | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
decisions. In terms of what you are calling for today, do you think | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
Vince Cable should position his -- consider his position? This is the | :13:50. | :13:58. | |
most damning report I have read. He did not take advice and listen to | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
the opposition. He did take the advice, that is the criticism. He | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
took the advice from 16 of the 17 investors who were going to be the | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
long-term stability investors and they did not give him the right | :14:11. | :14:18. | |
advice. 12 of them have now sold a large proportion of their | :14:19. | :14:20. | |
shareholdings. They came in for quick profit and Vince Cable should | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
have known that. The apology is irrelevant. He has proved himself | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
incompetent because he was had by the fund management groups. The | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
important long-term stable fund management groups, most of them have | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
sold out. He was had by the advisers. The government said to the | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
banks involved don't you think we should raise the price by 20% better | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
mark the advisers said, no, there is a strike action. He did not stand | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
up. He listened to much to the banks and fund management. He did not | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
stand up and think for himself or stop was he in a position to stand | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
up to them? Michael Fallon has defended the decision saying that it | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
was in an environment where industrial action was being | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
threatened and to some extent the environment would not have been | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
right to hold out longer. Change the timing. The report says the | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
timescale... It was driven through for ideological and political | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
purposes. They were trying to plug a hole in the Chancellor's budget. | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
?750 million loss to the taxpayer is something Vince Cable should reflect | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
on. Of course Michael Fallon says it was successful. But if I wanted to | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
sell anything at below market value, there would be more purchasers than | :15:45. | :15:55. | |
sellers. Overcautious is what they said. Because of the environment out | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
of the recession, the government was not confident enough to sell it | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
later. Vince Cable was given advice that the price was on the low side | :16:05. | :16:06. | |
and he chose not to accept the advice. It was very clear at the end | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
of day one, the demand from institutional investors was already | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
a multiple. It was very obvious. The government did ask, can we increase | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
the price by 20p? The banks said, don't do that. It is in the | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
interests of the banks as advisers to protect fund management clients. | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
Massive conflict of interest. Everyone seems to be looking after | :16:35. | :16:42. | |
their own interests. The institutional investors took all the | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
shares and the public and retail investors got very few. What would | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
you have done differently in the Green Party. Absolutely not | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
privatised the Royal mail. Hopefully this will be the last privatisation | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
of the public services. This is a failed model. There is no magic that | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
comes from private sector management. It means putting public | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
money into private hands. Slashing the pay and conditional workers and | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
it is a failed model. There are no efficiencies. And we have a fraud | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
ridden, deeply dishonest financial sector. Five years after the crash | :17:26. | :17:34. | |
we have failed to make any reforms. They are out for themselves, you | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
admit it. Why did Vince Cable not realise that. Why was he sucked into | :17:40. | :17:47. | |
believing that. He was trying to sell it for ideological reasons | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
because of the next general election. It had to go. But is at | :17:51. | :17:58. | |
the answer to renationalise? Very much so. And there is now a Private | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
Members Bill before Parliament. The privatisation of the railways is | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
costing us more than ?1 billion a year. Given the budget just a few | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
weeks ago said that the Chancellor would borrow billions more than he | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
suggested back in 2010, there will not be any money in the pot to | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
renationalise. We cannot commit to writing blank cheques for that. You | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
could bring the railways back into public hands just by not selling the | :18:31. | :18:39. | |
East Coast line. And ring the contract back into public hands as | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
they lapse. You do not need extra money for that. In the case of the | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
Royal mail it would be too costly. The share price is around ?6 per | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
share. We do not know how much money we will have. And the Chancellor has | :18:54. | :19:02. | |
borrowed nearly ?200 billion. It was thriving in the public sector and | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
would have done a good job in the public sector. Thank you very much. | :19:07. | :19:15. | |
Communities Secretary Eric Pickles says he may investigate the London | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
borough of Tower Hamlets after allegations were made against the | :19:19. | :19:20. | |
borough's mayor, Lutfur Rahman, in last night's Panorama programme on | :19:21. | :19:28. | |
the BBC. The mayor, who is Bangladeshi, more than doubled | :19:29. | :19:30. | |
funding recommended by officers for Bengali-run charities. Opposition | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
councillors say they believe the grants were made in return for | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
electoral support, but Mr Rahman strongly denies these accusations. | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
Panorama's John Ware put the allegations to the mayor. You more | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
than doubled the grand officers recommended to Bengali and Somali | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
run organisations and you cut others to help pay for it. That is why the | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
opposition say it is about electoral advantage. What do you say to that. | :19:59. | :20:09. | |
It is untrue. Absolutely untrue. My principal has always been that we | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
will distribute the money to as many organisations as possible as they | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
benefit the community. We're joined now by the former Mayor | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
of London, Ken Livingstone who's a supporter of Lutfur Rahman and the | :20:24. | :20:25. | |
former Local Government minister, Bob Neill. Ken Livingstone, what did | :20:26. | :20:33. | |
you make of those allegations. I think it was a game changing | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
programme. I have watched the programme all my life and that was | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
the first time I fell asleep. 30 minutes of them joining on saying it | :20:43. | :20:54. | |
was a politician winning support. That is what you do as a politician. | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
It was ever thus. That is what you do if your elect did. To dismiss it | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
like that is wrong. This exposed one of the worst examples of malpractice | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
I have seen in local government. And I have been around for 24 years. | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
There is a difference between promoting policies and doing so in a | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
system which does not observe due process. The detail of that | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
programme showed that there are no proper systematic checks and | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
balances. Which there are in other authorities. So there is a problem | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
in Tower Hamlets. This is a guy who has never appeared before the | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
scrutiny committee. What are the allegations of malpractice. There | :21:42. | :21:49. | |
are three issues. The programme, and it is not somehow biased and races, | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
that is absurd. There is a concern about the lack of any audit trail. | :21:57. | :22:05. | |
No audit trail on the changes to the grants which favoured organisations | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
linked to the mayor and his supporters. And also a problem with | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
abuse of Eastlands -- East End life. And also a concern that has come to | :22:17. | :22:24. | |
light with the mayor's officers threatening opposition councillors | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
with standards and quarry. And there has been one case of that where an | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
opposition councillor was wrongly taken to a standards board. Everyone | :22:37. | :22:46. | |
is always referring people to the standards board now. It was done by | :22:47. | :22:54. | |
Lib Dems and Tories against me. Lutfur Rahman has quite a successful | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
record. He has built more social housing for rent than any other | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
local authority. He was the first mayor to introduce the living wage | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
following example I said. He has introduced free school meals for | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
kids. This is one of the poorest boroughs in Britain. Of course he | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
will find groups that support the Somali and Bangladeshi community. He | :23:19. | :23:26. | |
will not fund the bankers down the road, they do not need it. You get a | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
platform to those groups that you have sympathy for more than you | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
think will give you electoral support. But there is an issue of | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
transparency. If there is no audit trail and you cannot see where | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
levels of funding were changed then it does look like malpractice. | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
People can turn up and get access to anything. This is the weakness of | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
the mayoral system. The same allegations were put to me. That is | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
why I think that the mayoral system is flawed. When you have a normal | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
council you have members of your group watching over your shoulder. | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
If you do anything wrong they will remove you. You had your assembly | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
scrutinising you. They can only ask questions. But Lutfur Rahman is | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
standing up and not only refusing to appear -- in front of the scrutiny | :24:20. | :24:26. | |
council but you also had him saying it is against his human rights for | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
him to be obliged to answer questions. You cannot defend that. I | :24:29. | :24:35. | |
did a weekly press conference and answered everything. Boris does one | :24:36. | :24:42. | |
once per year. Is it not ridiculous that he is not prepared to be | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
scrutinised. He is prepared to be scrutinised. Tower Hamlets is very | :24:48. | :24:58. | |
political. The Labour Party was deeply divided. He was unfairly | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
forced out of the Labour Party. I hope that things will come down and | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
we will bring people back together again. You are very close to him, he | :25:06. | :25:16. | |
supported you in election. Do not pretend you're an independent | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
observer on this. He is going well beyond anything I have ever seen in | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
local government. He is carrying out exactly the kind of policies I ran | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
on in the last election. He has set up an energy body so people do not | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
have to pay so much for their energy. He provided free school | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
meals. The way they moved money around, they made major changes to | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
grants. Tower Hamlets, let me make this point, we cannot afford in a | :25:49. | :25:57. | |
diverse city like London to have any politician of any political party | :25:58. | :25:59. | |
trying to play one community against another. Is that what was happening. | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
The Merit's own legal officer said they were in breach of their | :26:07. | :26:15. | |
position. Before Lutfur Rahman, that was the case. The Labour group used | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
to play one section of the community against another. What about the | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
model itself. Do you think that directly elected mayors have too | :26:27. | :26:33. | |
much power. Yes. Ken says it after he has filled the post! The reason I | :26:34. | :26:41. | |
stood is if you have to have one you want an honest person like me. It | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
can work. It does require checks and balances. That requires a genuinely | :26:48. | :26:55. | |
independent office. That is no longer the case said Tower Hamlets | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
because many experienced people have been moved out. You have to have the | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
chance for the other political parties generally to challenge and | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
question you. You are saying that the model as it exists is not | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
correct because there is not enough scrutiny. We need to put in more | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
checks and balances. But it can be made to work. Is it a good idea? | :27:18. | :27:25. | |
Absolutely not. It puts too much power in hands of person. Many | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
councils have gone towards the Cabinet system which is taking power | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
away from local councillors. And people have too lobby at council | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
meetings. We need to go back to a model where you can go to your | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
locally elected person who can really make a difference. The point | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
about a directly elected mayor is engaging the public. If you have a | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
charismatic person they will achieve far more. Ken Livingstone, he has | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
achieved a certain amount when it came to housing. You could not do | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
that in a cabinet system. What you also need is properly funded local | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
government which we have not got. Where people can go to their local | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
councillor and they can make a change. There are directly elect did | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
mayors in this country who do a good job. And they run the system | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
properly and within their council constitution. There are checks and | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
balances which they adhere to. This is becoming a rogue authority. It | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
all relies on one person and that is a bad idea. This is an American | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
system dropped in contrary to all our normal traditions. We need to go | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
back to proper councils were committees have real scrutiny and | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
willpower. There is a bit of the leopard changing his spots there. | :28:56. | :29:03. | |
You were quite keen on that system. And quite frequently argued to | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
reduce the powers of the Assembly as I remember. You rode roughshod over | :29:08. | :29:17. | |
the Assembly. They could not do anything about it! Bob Neill, did | :29:18. | :29:27. | |
you ever think Ken Livingstone made funding decisions according to the | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
voter base. I think he made some daft decisions but I did not put his | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
behaviour anywhere in the league that we see in Tower Hamlets. There | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
were difficulties but there was an older trail. That threw up the | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
things that went seriously wrong with funding decisions in the London | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
Development Agency 's. But there was an audit trail for it to be | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
discovered. And what about Boris Johnson. He is exactly the same with | :29:58. | :30:04. | |
proper audit trail. In Tower Hamlets the audit trails are not there and | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
the system is being abused. I think it is as bad as any case I have seen | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
in my career. Now, the MP Nigel Evans and former Deputy Speaker took | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
to the the witness box yesterday in his trial where he stands accused of | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
one rape, two indecent assaults, five sexual assaults and one | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
attempted sexual assault. He denies all the charges. Nigel Evans told | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
the jury of his absolute hell and said he felt embarrassed about | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
having to discuss the allegations with the police. Ed Thomas is at | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
Preston Crown Court for us. Ed, tell us what's been happening in court. | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
Nigel Evans has left the dock for a third day to take the stand to | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
defend himself. He has described his life has held since the allegations | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
were made. He said that to have yourselves sullied in this way is | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
awful. He said he was embarrassed after his arrest and in a deep sense | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
of shock. He could not believe it was happening. With his voice | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
breaking, he looked directly at the juror 's and said, nobody wants | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
their private life to be brought up in this way. It is incredibly | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
difficult. He talked about what he thought was an attraction between | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
himself and one of these alleged victims. He said this man was | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
incredibly flirtatious. They would hold hands. He said there was a | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
connection between them. He added that there is no fool like an old | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
fool. He is now being cross-examined in court. He is being asked about to | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
alleged incidents where the MP tried to put his hand down two young | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
Westminster workers trousers. He told the court, I have no | :31:47. | :31:48. | |
recollection of this happening. Asked if he was a lecherous man, you | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
said, you are trying to make me out to be a cross between Alan Clark, | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
Oscar Wilde and Benny Hill. What is expected to happen over the next few | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
days? Nigel Evans is still giving evidence now. We expect him to be | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
cross-examined for the rest of the day. The case has another week or so | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
to go. More witnesses will be called in defence for Nigel Evans. Then the | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
summing up from the prosecution defence and the judge. Then the jury | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
will be sent out to consider its verdict. Nigel Evans is accused of | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
using his political influence to take sexual advantage of seven young | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
men. The MP denies all of the allegations against him. | :32:36. | :32:44. | |
So, the latest major assessment of climate change published by UN | :32:45. | :32:46. | |
experts says there's overwhelming evidence that its impact is already | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
being felt across the world and it's likely to get worse. And that's | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
consistent with other recent studies from leading scientists. So, what | :32:54. | :32:55. | |
are politicians doing about it? Well, it wasn't so long ago that it | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
seemed the entire political class had turned a shade of green. David | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
Cameron was pictured being pulled by huskies across the Arctic. Once | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
Prime Minister, he promised this would be the greenest government | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
ever. But by the autumn of last year, he was reported to have | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
ordered aides to get rid of the "green clap" which critics said were | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
increasing the cost of living and hurting British business. -- green | :33:18. | :33:25. | |
crap. The ECO or Energy Company Obligation scheme has been scaled | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
back. The strike price promised to generators of electricity produced | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
from wind or solar energy has been reduced. And the fuel duty escalator | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
that would have added 2p to a litre of petrol this year has been | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
cancelled. We're joined now by Tim Yeo the Conservative Chair of the | :33:41. | :33:42. | |
Energy and Climate Change Select Committee and the Sun columnist | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
Trevor Kavanagh. Welcome to both of you. Natalie Bennett, we heard the | :33:48. | :33:55. | |
IPCC report and it was apocalyptic and some people's eyes and alarmist. | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
Despite that David Cameron is scrapping green levies and scrapping | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
the fuel duty escalator. People are not into green policies. I do not | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
think it is true. I am not sure the green issues are responsible for | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
polls. We have had two reports saying the debate over climate | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
change is over, the reality is here and we need to take action. It is a | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
tragedy since the 2008 climate change act when we had cross-party | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
agreement on action, we have slipped backwards. It is an indictment of | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
this government. What do you say to that? This government has set the | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
toughest budget for carbon emissions of any country in the world. It was | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
made three years ago, the decision. That was a very challenging decision | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
taken with some courage by David Cameron with the support of the | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
whole coalition. If you look specifically at the renewable | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
technology referred to in the introduction, solar, wind, this | :35:00. | :35:06. | |
government has set aside ?7 billion by 2020 to support those | :35:07. | :35:08. | |
technologies through subsidies. Everyone understands it is right the | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
strike price, the price guaranteed to the suppliers of renewable | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
energy, it should come down as the technologies get more advanced. I am | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
hopeful that by 2020, we may find that things like solar do not need a | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
subsidy at all. Can David Cameron claimant is the greenest government | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
ever? Judged by the criteria of previous governments, he can. Now we | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
have this information about how bad it could be unless the effects of | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
emissions are mitigated, is this the green escarpment ever and could it | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
be better? It is greener than all of those that went before. If you take | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
EU discussions about what the targets for 2030 should be, the | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
British Government is one of those in the lead pressing for challenging | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
targets. That is Britain using its influence to try and get Europe to | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
move in a greener direction. That is simply not true. The British garment | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
is a drag on those negotiations. Let us look at what is happening on the | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
ground. Figures recently, the contribution from renewables to | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
British energy compared to 28 countries, we can proudly claim we | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
are ahead of Luxembourg and Malta. We are behind everybody else. | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
Looking at the report of the echo, we have cut back a programme | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
insulating people's homes. This government has failed on every | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
policy measure and not delivered and it is promoting shale gas. | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
Last November, your paper, the Sun, it ran the headline, Cameron | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
switches from concerned green to trueblue Tory. Why isn't your paper | :36:47. | :36:53. | |
taking the threat of climate change seriously I think we are taking it | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
seriously. It is unfortunately for the green movement and the | :37:01. | :37:03. | |
Armageddon scenario, they have had a problem of bad timing and poor | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
timing. It happened during a period when there had been no global | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
warming for 16 years also. Also, the world is going through the worst | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
recession and the last thing people want is the cost of imposing the | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
measures everybody is demanding. As for tactics, I think the profit | :37:23. | :37:30. | |
looked at -- the apocalyptic nature coupled with rather dodgy | :37:31. | :37:32. | |
statistics, if not fiddled statistics, I think that gave the | :37:33. | :37:42. | |
green movement a very bad start. The idea of the seas rising by several | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
feet or metres, this is not happening. It may be happening by | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
inches but not metres. Do you accept credible to was lost because of | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
inaccurate statistics? -- credibility was lost. The levels are | :37:56. | :38:04. | |
rising and the earth is warming. We have the facts now and the | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
factors... They were wrong before? Will a macro there were minor | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
errors. -- there were minor errors. The fact is, what we actually need | :38:15. | :38:25. | |
to do we are losing thousands of potential jobs. The potential of | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
things like the energy bill revolution which could take the | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
money from carbon taxes and insulated every home in Britain | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
which are needed, create 200,000 jobs and cut carbon emissions. | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
Things like tidal energy. We have the potential to develop a British | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
industry and the government is not creating the policy environment to | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
do that. They have not got the message about how it could save | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
money later on. Indeed. In the very short-term, dependence on fossil | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
fuels is slightly cheaper. Looking ahead ten, 15 years, the probability | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
is carbon tax, through taxes or emissions trading, will be much | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
higher. Those countries which invest in low carbon technology will do the | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
right thing environmentally but benefit economically because their | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
costs will come down. Why has David Cameron scrap the green levies? | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
There has been some adjustment to fairly detailed policies. Britain | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
remains committed to the same level of carbon emission reductions as it | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
was two years ago. The use of the phrase green crap is not one that is | :39:36. | :39:42. | |
proven to be the Prime Minister. It is popular! It was leaked by a Tory | :39:43. | :39:50. | |
aide. People are quite rightly worried about energy bills. They | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
can't afford it. Anything that will bring them down will be welcome. If | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
we want Britain to have secure affordable energy, the right ways to | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
broaden our energy mix so it includes nuclear and shale gas and | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
also a big element of renewables. Your view is short-term. No, not at | :40:09. | :40:17. | |
all. The crying wolf, the Armageddon apocalyptic society betrayed by the | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
green movement may or may not happen. The overwhelming evidence is | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
it will happen unless the effects are mitigated. It is computer model | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
generated. We know there are some signs of global warming. However, | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
the human race is infinitely adaptable. Also so things could be | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
considered. The costs involved in the measures required to deal with | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
the flooding that is being forecast, the heatwaves, they are effectively | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
beyond the resources of the world to deal with, especially when half of | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
the world are totally ignoring these apparent signs of warming. The | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
Chinese are in the lead in recognising the lead for low carbon | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
technology. In America, California has introduced its own emissions | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
trading systems. This is a myth. There was a time when you could | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
argue certain parts of Asia were in denial. It is no longer the case. | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
Quite soon we will find more modern technology giving people a | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
competitive advantage economically is being adopted in China, South | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
Korea, the US. Britain may be left behind. Written may be left -- | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
Britain is being left behind and that is an indictment of the current | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
government. Christine Lagarde, she was asked what kept her awake at | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
night and she said, we are not doing enough about climate change. Ban | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
Ki-moon, the UN Secretary General, he said, the heat is on, we must | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
act. They are taking strategic long view of the world's future and | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
saying, we are not doing enough. Do you claim people are not listening | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
because the government has not been as committed as it says and there | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
have been mixed messages? Is that why many people will agree with | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
Trevor? The government is sending out messages it is no big deal. | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
There is also the other factor that we have a media dominated by a few | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
extremely rich right-wing tycoons who have a huge interest. In the | :42:19. | :42:28. | |
non-Anglo parts of the world where you do not have them, we would not | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
be having this debate. Let Trevor answer that. I think the green lobby | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
has had the lion's share of the debate. To the point where it has | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
tried to terrify people into submission on things like windmills | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
which are complete waste of money. Solar energy I agree could become | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
the answer to our problems. There is nothing wrong with fracking. Low | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
carbon emission gas is much better than oil and coal. In the last | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
month, the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, Michael Gove, they have | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
all confirmed their acceptance of the science of climate change. They | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
just don't want to pay to do anything about it. David Cameron has | :43:11. | :43:18. | |
been pressing hard in the EU for 40% of carbon cuts. The reason why they | :43:19. | :43:26. | |
had to come out and explicitly state they believed in climate change was | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
because there actions seem to demonstrate they did not. Even in | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
your case, you said you were deselected because of disagreements | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
over York constituency, gay marriage and climate change. -- your | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
constituency. If you had your time again, would you be as stridently | :43:47. | :43:55. | |
pro-green? I would be more so. The fact is, of course there are people | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
in Britain not yet persuaded by these arguments. That is why it is | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
incumbent on people who understand to get out there and make the | :44:02. | :44:09. | |
persuasive argument. The polls reinforce Trevor's view. Three | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
points behind where you were in 2009 in the European elections. You are | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
failing more to get your message across. What we are seeing with the | :44:18. | :44:25. | |
polls is and prompted result. The Lib Dem result prompted. Quite a lot | :44:26. | :44:37. | |
of... You are unprompted in 2009. We're working hard in our target | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
regions. That is what we are aiming to do, let more MEPs, send greens to | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
Europe. It is never persuasive to say the media are the people at | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
fault. We have to be more persuasive and determined. That is why I am | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
pleased we have a Prime Minister, Chancellor who are out there | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
determined to see Britain decarbonise its economy. David | :45:01. | :45:09. | |
Cameron is going to have a husky customer probably not any time soon. | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
You might have noticed by her accent when she talks, Natalie was born and | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
brought up in Australia. But can foreign-born politicians make it in | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
British politics? Here's Adam. The socialite Nancy Astor was the | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
first woman to take up her seat in Parliament and she was also an | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
American. Here is another one. Connecticut born Brooks Newmark has | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
since dropped his US citizenship. When I first stood here and not of | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
the Labour candidates were saying do you want an American representatives | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
in Parliament. Someone said I thought there was an American | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
standing there. I said yes but I moved here when I was nine. A lot of | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
people make their lives here and I am no different. That person was | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
expecting some Texan in a hat. It was the year of George bush and that | :46:09. | :46:15. | |
is what they expected. And we once had a Canadian prime minister. | :46:16. | :46:22. | |
Andrew Bonar Law, one of the least famous residence ever of ten Downing | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
St. He entered the Coalition with the Liberals. Nowadays it turns out | :46:29. | :46:37. | |
we have loads of foreign-born MPs. Their heritage rarely comes up as an | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
issue. But for once it has defined his political career. My parents | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
were anti-apartheid activists in Pretoria and my whole background | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
with them being jailed and fined and police raiding our house and then | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
forced into exile is very much rooted in that. Look closely and you | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
will see a young Peter Hain at this anti-apartheid protest in the 1970s. | :47:04. | :47:10. | |
Coming from outside British society, you're not trapped by the class | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
system. I was able to mix with Prince Charles and equally go home | :47:14. | :47:21. | |
to my local rugby club. There have been so many migrant MPs that we | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
hardly have time to discuss the New Zealander Bryan Gould who challenged | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
John Smith to the Labour leadership in 1992. Then Boris Johnson, born in | :47:29. | :47:35. | |
New York. He occasionally takes out his American passport. Even though | :47:36. | :47:43. | |
he threatened to throw it away. And I'm joined by MPs Gisela Stuart | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
and Nadhim Zahawi. Welcome. And Natalie Bennett is still with us. | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
And, guess what? They were all born abroad! Tell us how you came to live | :47:51. | :47:58. | |
here. I arrived 40 years ago unable to speak English. I served the | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
German apprenticeship and someone offered me a job even though I did | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
not speak the language. I did a three-day week. My parents thought I | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
would not last. Were you surprised you lasted so long. I lasted, then I | :48:14. | :48:20. | |
went to Holland and came back here. So yes I am utterly surprised. But | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
what I find extraordinary, I would never say I'm English but I am a | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
dish. That is a wonderful unifying thing. What about your experience? | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
We came here in the late 1970s. My father was Kurdish. Born in | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
Baghdad, pretty hard to live there for a Kurdish family. We came here, | :48:43. | :48:51. | |
at school I had to try to construct sentences in my head and then let | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
them out. It was so hard to learn the language. I have had the most | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
extraordinary life here. The gift I have had here is freedom and | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
opportunity. I made the best of both, founding a business and taking | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
it public. I became a member of Parliament in a very middle-class | :49:15. | :49:23. | |
white area. It has not been an obstacle for either of you. I have | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
the old constituency of Neville 's Chamberlain and I occasionally have | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
imagined conversations with him. Saying it is all right, democratic. | :49:34. | :49:41. | |
I came in 1999 and did not have many language issues! I speak fluent | :49:42. | :49:48. | |
Australian! I had to be careful about the use of the word long. But | :49:49. | :49:55. | |
I came as a professional journalist. I had been to Britain before and | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
loved the place. And back and settled and cannot imagine wanting | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
to leave. And how did you make the leap to politician. In 2006 it was | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
the New Year resolution. I looked at the state of the world and wanted to | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
do something. I never read it did it would lead me to this spot. It just | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
happened. We always talking about the lack of women in politics. Do | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
you think that is more of a barrier than your background in that sense. | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
When I was selected by the Labour Party they said it is the fact that | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
you spent ten years in Manchester that you have to keep quiet about! | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
But to this day I do feel slightly foreign. When we talk about | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
education, I do not have those class hang-ups. I cannot get worked up | :50:47. | :50:54. | |
about a select system. And I know there is an element that I do not | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
understand. Peter Hain made the same point. You're not born into the same | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
class system and do not have the history of it. That is probably | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
true. For me we fell on hard times, we came here, the bank took at home | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
and a lot of bad things happen. But what allowed me to get up and try | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
again is that we had a pretty decent education. That was partly back in | :51:25. | :51:32. | |
Iraq and then in the UK I was lucky because my father had been in the UK | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
before and was educated so there was already that link to the UK. But the | :51:39. | :51:46. | |
rail differentiate is education. We do not have the baggage of the class | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
system. There is not that last ceiling in many ways. You can just | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
walk into a room and talk to everyone equally. I think that is | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
one of the uses of an Australian accent, that it is entirely | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
classless. But the gender thing is something I do think about, of | :52:05. | :52:12. | |
myself as a female politician not as an Australian politician. I'm the | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
first woman party leader to take over from another woman arty leader. | :52:17. | :52:23. | |
When I walk around Westminster it is horrifying how male dominated it is. | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
Not just members of Parliament but it still feels like a male dominated | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
place. In terms of any prejudice, did you come across any in terms of | :52:34. | :52:42. | |
your background. In 1997 I had a conversation with a Tory voter who | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
said that she would vote for me Cosmo German would put up with | :52:49. | :52:56. | |
nonsense regarding law and order! Now how important is image to the | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
success of a political leader? That's one of the themes of the | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
satirical play, The Confessions of Gordon Brown. After its success at | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
the Labour Party conference last year, it's about to start a run in | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
London's West End. In a moment we'll be joined by the play's creator, | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
Kevin Toolis. First here's a clip of Gordon Brown, played by Ian Grieve, | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
pondering on the importance of image. | :53:22. | :53:38. | |
You are on. I always knew him and that other all | :53:39. | :53:51. | |
the, in Duncan Smith, what is he up to now. Nothing much. You never read | :53:52. | :53:58. | |
about them in the papers. Who wants to see a baldly on the front page. | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
The people will not vote for oldies. Instead of the old Tories it was the | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
Conservative and baldly political suicide party. Broken to pieces. The | :54:09. | :54:16. | |
Tories had no leader and the people knew it. The world was a poster. -- | :54:17. | :54:27. | |
but are oyster. And I'm joined by Kevin Toolis, the | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
writer of The Confessions of Gordon Brown and John McTernan who used to | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
advise Tony Blair on political strategy. What about Ed Miliband. I | :54:34. | :54:41. | |
think he is not a viable prime Minster. Politics is a cruel sport. | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
It is a narrow trench where good men die every day. And then shameless | :54:48. | :54:55. | |
charlatans steal all the prizes. And then there is a negative prize! But | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
he is not bald! He is tall which is a requirement. But his image after | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
four years, he has not been able to change that kind of geeky image that | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
people have of him and I think that is a fatal flaw and he will not | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
succeed. Do you agree. I think that is a ridiculous invented test, that | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
you're mad to look like a prime minister before you become one. Tony | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
Blair and David Cameron are really the only ones who actually did that. | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
Margaret Thatcher, Robert be the most influential. The Tories lead | :55:33. | :55:47. | |
Margaret Thatcher in popularity. How'd you explain people like Hague | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
and Michael foot. Why did they not become prime minister. Because their | :55:52. | :55:59. | |
politics were crazy. The quality of your enemies is also essential to | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
your success. William Hague always looked strange, he was never able to | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
escape that image of him as a 16-year-old. He and Ian Duncan | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
Smith, those were fatal choices. Political parties have lost some | :56:17. | :56:24. | |
plans for political suicide. And that applies to the Labour Party and | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
Labour Party in Scotland as well. It does weaken the potential victory of | :56:28. | :56:34. | |
that party. In a televisual age there has to be something of an | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
aura, a style over substance because that makes it easier to get the | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
message across. Ian Duncan Smith and William Hague Michael Howard, they | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
all lost elections because they had wrong policies. Ed Miliband has been | :56:50. | :56:59. | |
down in the polls. But David Cameron is no more popular than when he was | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
elected. The fundamentals are the fundamentals. Ed Miliband has | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
policies that connect with real people. When he is out there | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
speaking, he is like John Major. 41% of people think Ed Miliband is | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
strange. You get stupid answers to stupid question. 38% of the | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
population are going to vote Labour. Is it not about the potential prime | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
minister. They have got to be able to see the leader of the party of | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
the future prime minister. They see the party of the future government. | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
As an instrument to oust an unpopular government. In the end it | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
is policies and not personalities. The stature of the leader is a | :57:51. | :57:57. | |
hugely decisive factor. The coming election is hard to call. But the | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
notion that you could just be a nobody. And have negative ratings | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
and would somehow not matter, of course it matters. I think with Ed | :58:07. | :58:14. | |
Miliband his problem is he is not having any strong policies, he's not | :58:15. | :58:22. | |
trying to offend anyone. He's just staying quite and not say anything | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
radical and hope to fall back into office. That is the problem for | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
Labour. Well the opinion polls are closing. This latest poll, just 9% | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
of the population think Ed Miliband is a strong leader. You cannot just | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
ignore all that content in the opinion polls. That's all for today. | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
Thanks to our guests. Goodbye. | :58:52. | :58:57. |