Browse content similar to 08/04/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon and welcome to the Daily Politics. It's the expenses | :00:41. | :00:51. | |
row that just won't go away. Maria Miller made a lightning-fast | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
entrance to Cabinet this morning, with reports that senior Tories want | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
her out on the double. So far Number ten is standing by its minister. | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
The Lib Dems promised that all infant school pupils will have free | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
school meals by this September. But are the schools ready? We've been | :01:04. | :01:05. | |
investigating. Speaking of Lib Dems, I've been | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
talking to the former minister Sarah Teather about the direction of the | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
party and her decision to leave Westminster. | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
Both David Cameron and Ed Miliband started off as special advisors, but | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
to many they're overpaid and unaccountable. So just what do they | :01:18. | :01:29. | |
really do? All that in the next hour, you lucky viewers. And with us | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
for the whole programme today is Henry de Zoete. He was adviser to | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
education secretary Michael Gove until last year. He now runs | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
something called the Big Deal which is trying to persuade consumers to | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
join together and force the energy companies to give them a better | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
deal. The Daily Mail also once described him one of Britain's 50 | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
most powerful posh people under 30. What an accolade! He is choking! | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
He's since got a bit older so he no longer qualifies. Welcome to the | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
show. Let's start with Maria Miller. It's | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
the sixth day in a row the culture secretary and her expenses have been | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
making the front pages of the papers. Last week Mrs Miller was | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
cleared of funding a home for her parents at taxpayers' expense but | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
was criticised for her obstructive attitude to the inquiry. She gave a | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
short apology to the Commons that has been described as perfunctory by | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
Ed Miliband. She agreed to hand back ?5,800 after a larger sum | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
recommended by an independent watchdog was overruled by a | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
committee of MPs. Still following? Yesterday the MPs tried to raise the | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
matter in the Commons. MP John Mann has been leading the criticism of | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
Maria Miller and raised a point of order. What opportunities might | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
there be for the house to have a discussion, not on the behaviour and | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
actions of individual members, but on the principle of self-regulation | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
of MPs by MPs? What mechanism is possible before the house rises on | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
Thursday for us to discuss this very important issue? Not this particular | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
case, I am not raising that at all, but the general issue of how we | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
regulate ourselves and recognise the amount of criticism justified or | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
otherwise which has been expressed outside. I thought I had better use | :03:21. | :03:29. | |
this before you do. How do you solve a problem called Maria? I can say to | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
the honourable gentleman that governments can make statements to | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
the house when they wish. The Government has not chosen to make a | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
statement today. It is perfectly possible that there could be | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
exchanges on the principles of the issues that concern him and others. | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
That could take place between now and when we rise later this week. | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
The speaker, John Bercow. Maria Miller is still being backed by the | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
Prime Minister, but Tory MPs have not exactly been vocal in their | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
support. According to the Daily Telegraph this morning, the chairman | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
of the 1922 committee of backbench Conservatives, Graham Brady, met | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
David Cameron to tell him he has to go. And last night on ITV, the | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
employment minister Esther McVey had this to say. As to what happened, | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
you are quite right, the fundamental allegation, which an opposition MP | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
brought against her, that was dismissed by an independent | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
commissioner. But there were two things that she had to do, pay it | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
back and make an apology. That was done. I can honestly say that is not | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
how I would have made an apology but different people have different | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
styles and do things in different ways. Very revealing. Esther McVey | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
speaking last night. Yesterday we learned that Speaker John Bercow has | :04:52. | :05:00. | |
allowed a question on possible changes to the way complaints about | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
MPs are handled following this row. Carole Walker joins us now. What | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
will that mean? We are waiting to hear from the leader of the house | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
exactly what will happen but you are right. John Mann, who raised the | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
issue just a moment ago, he has succeeded in forcing Andrew Lansley | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
to come to the House and talk about what is going to happen to this | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
system is investigated Maria Miller. Their concern is that this standards | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
committee, which is made up of MPs, with a few lay members, although | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
they do not have a vote. This committee overruled the independent | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
commissioner, to reduce the amount that Maria Miller had to repay. She | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
is having to repay about ?6,000. The independent commissioner originally | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
suggested around ?40,000. This has led to a lot of concerns that MPs | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
are marking their own homework. Yesterday the Prime Minister said he | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
was open to suggestions about how this should change. It is worth | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
noting there is now a different situation in place for investigating | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
complaints about MPs expenses. There is a new independent compliance | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
office but complaints about MPs on other issues and allegations of | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
misbehaviour are still dealt with by this standards committee. We are | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
expecting to hear from the Leader of the House in an hour, who will | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
signal whether or not the Government is prepared to back changes to make | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
this system more independent. Though the system may change, we don't | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
know, but MPs may not be allowed to judge how other Members of | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
Parliament have behaved. What does that mean for Maria Miller? Is it a | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
device to distract from her or does she still looked in a precarious | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
situation? Maria Miller's case has been dealt with. She has agreed to | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
pay back the money and has made that apology, which many people, | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
including one of her fellow ministers, were not happy about. | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
There is no doubt that she is still under pressure. Talking to | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
Conservative MPs, there is a sense that the mood is hardening against | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
her. I think a lot of MPs are celebrated that they are out and | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
about and campaigning ahead of the local and European elections. They | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
want to be talking about the economy, lifting the tax threshold, | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
changes to benefits and so on. Instead they are being asked again | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
and again about MP expenses and Maria Miller. I think that has led a | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
lot of Conservative MPs to question why, for the sake of the damage she | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
is doing to the rest of the party, she doesn't fall on her sword. It | :07:40. | :07:49. | |
has to be said that at the moment she seems to be digging in her heels | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
and the Prime Minister is standing by her. The urgent question is at | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
12:30pm, I believe. Thank you. Henry, she has been accused of | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
handling this badly, Maria Miller. If you had been her adviser, would | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
you say she has handled it badly and how should she have done it | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
differently? I am quite glad these things are not my problem anymore! I | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
think there could potentially be some concerns raised about the | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
nature of the apology and maybe the full sum of it. But I don't think | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
she could really have done much more at the moment and the truth is that | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
it is in the hands of the Prime Minister and we have to see what he | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
does. There has been some focus on the role of her special adviser and | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
a conversation she had with journalists that the Daily | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
Telegraph, where the issue of the Leveson Inquiry and press regulation | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
was raised. Did she overstepped the mark? I don't know the ins and outs | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
of that. There were accusations flying about that what she did and | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
didn't mean so it is difficult for me to say specifically if that is | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
right or not. I note the special adviser Angie is a lovely person and | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
a adviser. -- I know the special adviser and she is a lovely person. | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
It could come back to haunt her in terms of relations, especially with | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
the press. If Maria Miller makes it to the Eastern recess, do you think | :09:10. | :09:17. | |
she will survive until the next reshuffle which comes up after the | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
European elections? If I was the adviser, I would be holding out for | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
the recess, because that is when the pressure lifts off and the | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
Westminster bubble calms down. The pressure loosens and MPs disappear | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
back to their constituencies. They are not walking round Westminster, | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
talking to each other and bumping into journalists and making the | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
whole thing an issue again. I think if she can get to recess, she will | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
be in a better place. Do you think she can expect to be reshuffled | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
after the European elections? I think that will depend on how the | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
Prime Minister is feeling about everything. We will leave that | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
there. It is now time for the daily quiz. For those of you that have not | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
seen Game Of Thrones, it is about a lot of morally ambiguous and corrupt | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
characters locked in a cut-throat battle for power and influence. | :10:08. | :10:18. | |
Sound familiar? For some reason this reminds the planning minister Nick | :10:19. | :10:20. | |
Boles of Westminster, surprise surprise. And on Twitter yesterday | :10:21. | :10:22. | |
he speculated which MP would best play the character Daenerys | :10:23. | :10:24. | |
Targaryen, who can walk through fire and is the mother of some dragons. | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
So who did he think should play the role? Nadine Dorries, Stella Creasy, | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
Esther McVey, Liz Truss? And at the end of the show, Henry will give us | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
the correct answer. Do you watch Game Of Thrones? Not yet. Everybody | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
is telling me to watch it but I can't quite bring myself to. That is | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
what the box set is for. You may remember one of the big | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
announcements from last year's conference that all primary school | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
children should get free school meals from next year. It made the | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
headlines but as many as 2700 schools in England are not ready to | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
start serving. Many need to upgrade their kitchens and others do not | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
have a kitchen. Alex is the reporter behind the search and Tobacco | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
research, so let's have a look. The time for these pupils and a | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
welcome break from lessons. In Dorset, most children bring their | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
lunch from home and eat in the classroom. From September, these | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
packed lunches should be replaced by a hot meal provided for free for all | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
pupils in their first free school years but that will not happen here. | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
The kitchen and dining hall are too small to serve and feed the pupils | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
and there is not enough money to make the changes needed. We need | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
facilities and certainly schools like us and others in the area need | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
people to serve the food. We are talking about children as young as | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
four walking around with trays of food and we need to be vigilant and | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
that costs money. Instead children will get prepacked sandwiches | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
delivered in. It is not quite what Nick Clegg promised when he launched | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
the policy for English schools last autumn. All families with | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
schoolchildren at primary school in those first crucial three years at | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
infant school, we are going to give everybody, all of the children, a | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
hot and healthy meal at lunchtime. Most headteachers support the idea | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
and investment in children's health, but they say the scheme has been | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
rushed through and puts pressure on some schools. Primary schools are | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
very singular places. Although implementing free school meals would | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
be effortless in many contexts, in some contexts, it provides a | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
significant challenge and in some an insuperable challenge given the | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
existing resources. We asked every council in England about schools in | :12:47. | :12:58. | |
their area. At least 2700 need to upgrade their kitchens, which is | :12:59. | :13:00. | |
anything from a new oven to total refurbishment. That is one third of | :13:01. | :13:02. | |
those assessed. 1700 have no kitchen at all. Meals could be delivered by | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
external companies or nearby schools. Some teachers say they will | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
have to stagger sittings and extend lunchtimes to fit more pupils into | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
smaller halls. ?150 million of funding has been allocated for | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
schools to improve dining halls and kitchens. But the money has been | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
allocated according to how many pupils are in each area, not on what | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
the school needs. So some regions have more than they require and in | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
others the funding falls short. The Government has enlisted the help of | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
experts like members of the lead association for catering in | :13:41. | :13:42. | |
education to help schools, especially small ones, struggling to | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
implement the policy. We are offering support to schools with the | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
help line that we are running. We are supporting schools that various | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
different levels, depending on how much support they need. Whether it | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
is a phone call and pointing them in the right direction or somebody | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
coming in and working with them to find solutions. Come September, all | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
eligible children have to be offered a free meal, even if an interim | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
solution means damages for some instead of the promised hot lunch. | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
-- sandwiches. We asked very nicely to speak to a minister from the | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
Department for Education and nobody was available. Instead we are joined | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
by Malcolm Bruce, I am delighted to say, and Henry deceived, who was an | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
adviser at the education department. Free hot school meals were promised | :14:37. | :14:46. | |
and it is not going to happen. The objective is it will happen. There | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
may be some interim phase in, but that is the objective. The BBC | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
report is entirely consistent with the Department's own information | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
about the situation, for which they provided the money. Accept that some | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
schools are going to get pre-packaged sandwiches from | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
September, not a hot school meal, that wasn't what was promised. That | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
is still his stated objective. It might not be in certain | :15:15. | :15:16. | |
circumstances, although the department tell me they are pretty | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
confident most places will be able to do it by a variety of different | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
needs. Upgrading Kitchens, it could be a minor upgrade. Outside catering | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
possibilities as well. The objective is to ensure every school provides a | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
free meal to every child, a hot meal. You think all the upgrades can | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
be done by September best remark I take your point that some of the | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
changes may be minor, but if you are having to put in a whole new kitchen | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
or upgraded, that is going to take a long time. Enough from my own | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
constituency, where school meal provision has changed over time, | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
some schools have Kitchens, some don't. Some cook for other schools | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
and ship them between them, some use outside catering. There are a | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
variety of ways to do it. It can be done. It wasn't really through | :16:05. | :16:18. | |
properly in terms of the concept to delivery. I think it was. This | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
policy has been in the making for five years. Pilot schemes were done. | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
This isn't just about free school meals. This is about ensuring that | :16:24. | :16:25. | |
children who currently don't get proper nutrition will get it. It | :16:26. | :16:27. | |
also ensures a much better educational output. That's why it's | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
the Department of education that doing it. It's coming out of the | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
education budget because there's an education benefit, which is proven. | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
Do you think it was well thought through? I think there was a problem | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
with implementation of this policy and how the policy came about. I was | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
in the Department for Education in the run-up to the announcement. We | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
didn't know anything about it until just a few hours before it was | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
announced at the Liberal Democrat Conference. What that meant was the | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
kind of hard, detailed work that needs to be done, for when you're | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
doing something of such importance, a national roll-out, the hard graft | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
wasn't there. I think that has been proven by the fact that there has | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
been changes in the position of what can be done and what can't be done, | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
when they had to announce more capital funding, the fact it was | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
announced on a per capita basis. That was done because they didn't | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
have enough time to find out which schools did or didn't have Kitchens. | :17:25. | :17:37. | |
I'm not saying the policy is a bad one. The review that led to the | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
policy was set up by Michael Gove, he is very supportive of the policy, | :17:41. | :17:42. | |
but there were issues around in fermentation. Do you accept that? I | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
don't. The pilot schemes were well tested and the benefit of the policy | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
was proven. The roll-out has been determined according to needs. It | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
was a surprise for the rest of the department in that it was announced | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
with any consultation. Good political announcement sometimes | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
have to be a surprise to get the impact. This was a Liberal Democrat | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
policy. Maybe they thought that you, as they accused the Conservatives, | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
would steal the policy or steal credit for it. There's an | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
interesting dynamic at play in the coalition in particular, and also | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
around party conferences and announcement that happen there. | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
Michael Gove's team had a rule we wouldn't make announcements at party | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
conference because sometimes they were difficult to get right, you are | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
in a bubble away from Westminster, you are not with the department, you | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
can't do the work that needs to be done. But these things happen. But | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
that wasn't just to be Department. We heard that schools have been | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
taken by surprise. The pilot is one thing, rolling it out on the | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
universal bases is quite another. Surely that was a mistake, because | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
now you got schools who have not only got the right facilities, but | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
they are talking about having more teachers at lunchtime, you can't | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
have kids holding the hot trays of food without help, staggering the | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
lunch break, it will have to start at 11:30am to get them through to | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
2pm. If you go back decades, a hot school meal was the normal | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
provision. We moved away from that for a whole variety of reasons. What | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
the policy demonstrates is the consequence of that will stop | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
children from pourer families are not getting good nutrition, and the | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
educational performance of poor children have been undermined. It is | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
a good policy. If there are hiccups they should be accepted and dealt | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
with, but it's not an argument for rubbishing or denigrating the | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
policy, which is a good, sound education policy. I think people | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
were questioning how it was actually presented and not enough thought had | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
gone into it. How do you get over a problem where a school with a | :19:47. | :19:54. | |
certain number of teachers just won't have enough people to | :19:55. | :19:56. | |
facilitate this? Yellow matter what those teachers doing when the | :19:57. | :19:58. | |
children are having lunch at the moment? The responsibility of the | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
school, children still have to be that. I do find that a slight red | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
herring, because I'm sure schools can manage this by reorganising the | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
day. Do you agree they will be able to cope with it, that these problems | :20:13. | :20:21. | |
are merely hiccups? Or do you think those are legitimate concerns, how | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
you deal with it when it's happening at lunch times? I do think they are | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
legitimate concerns. We've heard from people on the ground to spot | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
problems. It's fantastic the department is reaching out to them, | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
but there are other issues abound as policy which I don't think were | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
thought through properly. Like what happens around the Pupil Premium? | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
Also, that's how you measure kids on free school meals, that's how you | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
put out the Pupil Premium. If you are a head teacher you need to know | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
which of your kids are on free school meals and getting them, so | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
you can see the performance of those children and make sure you advance | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
it. Those issues... Getting away from means testing in this context | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
is a good thing. Means testing is difficult. What is happening now is | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
children from poor families sometimes don't qualify for free | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
school meals. The problem is the cost of the free school meals would | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
make them qualified if it came before rather than after. What you | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
are doing is making sure that children who currently don't get | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
school meals to get them. I accept that the criteria for the Pupil | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
Premium, but I'm certain there are ways of administering that. This | :21:30. | :21:43. | |
will all come together, it's about providing support for all children, | :21:44. | :21:45. | |
not just to get them better fed but better educated. Will it affect the | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
Pupil Premium? There are some schools who will claim they really | :21:49. | :21:50. | |
need that for some of them all poor pupils. Will they lose out if they | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
can't identify those pupils in the first instance as a result of this | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
policy? Of the policy is every child is getting a hot meal, you don't | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
know who is on free school meals and who isn't. You, as a parent, sign up | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
your child to do it. One of the incentives is the fact there is a | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
free school meals. Therefore why would you tell the school, there is | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
a lot of stigma with those issues, if you are meeting that criteria? | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
You wouldn't. It is the stigma that discourages people from applying for | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
free school meals, and as a consequence cuts them off from the | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
Pupil Premium. I think there's a real case to ensure we do better and | :22:26. | :22:38. | |
reach more of the kids by doing I think we are improving the | :22:39. | :22:40. | |
performance right across the board. Let's deal with any problems that | :22:41. | :22:42. | |
may be, but that's not undermine this very good policy to improve | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
educational output. What about the other point that was made in the | :22:46. | :22:47. | |
film? Because was allocated on the basis of pupil numbers and not need, | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
you will have money going to some schools where they don't need it. | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
They have the facilities and are ready to go. Whereas the will be | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
other schools who need a full kitchen upgrade who could do with | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
more money. It would be possible it seems to me that you can negotiate | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
across the piece. Those schools that don't need money will make it | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
available to those who do. If those issues do exist, it should be | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
possible to reorganise the funding in a way that we deliver the right | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
result. Former special adviser to Michael Gove, clearly not you, | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
described it as a gimmick. You don't think that's the case? I don't think | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
it was me. The issue for us, they were trying to do things that were | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
improving children's lives, making sure education is better. There's a | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
debate over whether this policy will do that. Michael Gove thinks that is | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
the case, but we have to get the implementation issues right to be | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
able to deliver it. We were told we couldn't raise the tax threshold to | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
?10,000, we raised it. Things can be done. Coalition adds value to policy | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
delivery. With rising energy bills, politicians are keen to encourage | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
people to switch providers if it will save them money. And to help, | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
the energy regulator Ofgem has brought in new rules which it says | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
will ban confusing and complex tariffs and make it easier for | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
consumers. Since January this year, energy suppliers have been limited | :24:07. | :24:08. | |
to offering eight tariffs to customers - four for electricity and | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
four for gas. And they've faced stricter rules on how to advertise | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
these tariffs. Then on 31st of March, new rules came into force to | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
make sure suppliers inform customers of the cheapest available tariff and | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
how much it could save them. Ofgem have also introduced a Tariff | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
Comparison Rate, or TCR, similar to APR for interest rates, which allows | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
customers to compare tariffs at a glance. So, will these changes make | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
it easier for customers to get a better deal on their energy? Joining | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
me now from Birmingham is Ramsay Dunning from Co-operative Energy, | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
and here in the studio is our guest of the day Henry de Zoete. He's | :24:49. | :24:56. | |
behind a company which encourages collective bargaining in the energy | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
market to bring down prices. Also with me here is Alun Rees from | :25:01. | :25:13. | |
Energy UK. According to which, the consumer organisation, only 35% of | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
people pick the cheapest energy deal, despite the tariffs coming in | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
at the beginning of the year which were designed to simplify the | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
system. That's a problem, isn't it? The strange thing is that the | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
research didn't look at the way people switch, which is really easy | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
to do. All you need to do is find how much energy you use, which is on | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
your bill, go to a price comparison website, Bob 's your uncle, it will | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
give you a quote and tell you what the best deal is. If it's that easy, | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
why have more people not switched? Millar about 3.5 million people | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
switched supplier last year. But what we want to do is make it even | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
simpler and easier for people to come -- pair and choose the best | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
deal for them. In 2013, an estimated 5.8 million people switched energy | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
providers. That's one point three 8 million fewer than ten years ago in | :26:04. | :26:11. | |
2003. The recent switches, 2010, eight .30 1 million. Then it | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
declines. 2011, seven .48. 2012, five .62. We are getting fewer and | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
fewer switches, despite you saying it is easier. It's no surprise that | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
switching is a lot less now than it was five or ten years ago. The | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
reason for that is five or ten years ago, suppliers were doing doorstep | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
selling. That was phased out because public concerns. The market is | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
changing and there are innovative new ways to make it easier for | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
customers to switch, like collective switching schemes, like comparison | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
websites and like the new tools energy suppliers are bringing in to | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
make it easier and simpler to compare. It's clearly not quite | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
simple enough. We can put up a graphic to show some of the offers | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
from three companies. Take a look at that. Which one is the cheapest? | :27:00. | :27:08. | |
At a glance, you've only given me a few seconds to look at this. Show. | :27:09. | :27:16. | |
You are saying it's really easy, I looked at that and I couldn't work | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
it out and I'm not sure I could work it out even after I don't know, 40 | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
minutes. This isn't the way that most people compared. The most | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
common used way is find out how much they used, which is on their bill, | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
pop it into a price comparison site along with their postcode and | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
straightaway you will get a quote which will tell you the cheapest | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
deal for you. Accept people still aren't taking it up. I have switched | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
once and I went through that process and it is quite straightforward. It | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
still takes quite a long time and you are reliant on the company is | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
doing all the paperwork for you. 60% of people have still never switched. | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
What you've just shown in terms of the different options kind of sums | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
it up. It's really confusing, you are not sure what's going on. Is | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
that going to save you money or not? What we are trying to do is say, | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
actually, if we get a whole bunch of people together, we can demand, | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
through the fact we've got more people, collectively bargain a | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
price. It's the easiest and simplest way of switching. It's easy to do, | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
easy to sign up and we do the difficult job for you by finding the | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
best possible deal. It sounds like a great deal, but Which made the same | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
offer. Is this any different? I think it is different because what | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
we are doing is reaching out to people that have never switched | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
before because we've got over 60% of people involved who never switched | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
before, people who are slightly older. These other groups who have | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
most been badly... I wouldn't want to say exploited, but certainly been | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
the ones who have not been able to save money, they've been ripped off, | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
they are spending up to ?300 more than they should be doing. We think | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
we can get them a really good deal. This is a commercial operation, you | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
will profit from this. How much commission will you take from each | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
person? We don't know what commission we will get at this | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
stage. We will know that when we've done a negotiation with the energy | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
companies and we will be open about that. One of the issues some people | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
have had the price comparison websites is those guys, they are | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
taking commissions but no one knows what they are or what they are | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
doing. The whole point about what we are doing is about saving people | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
money. If we can save them money then we've done what we've aimed to | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
do. Ramsey, thank you for waiting. Should private providers, like Henry | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
de Zoete's be operating in the energy market? I don't think there | :29:44. | :29:51. | |
is a problem with having private providers in the market but previous | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
discussions have highlighted that the public needs a completely | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
independent, dependable and public saving service that provides all the | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
information neutrally. The problem with commercial services is that | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
their primary purpose is to make a profit, and they do that out of | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
commission. They get commission from some companies and not from others, | :30:15. | :30:22. | |
and therefore they will give the customer the best product that they | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
will earn commission on. You are not going to get a private service | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
saying to a customer that this is the very best deal on the market | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
even if we don't make anything from it. The public really needs that | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
completely independent service. Who is going to provide that? A number | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
of people could provide it. I think it needs the Government to come | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
behind it. It does not necessarily need the Government to set it up. It | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
needs to be overseen by the Government or Ofgem. They could set | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
it up. They don't need to. It could go out to a consumer organisation | :31:01. | :31:08. | |
like Which? Or Consumer Focus. Organisations like that. If you can | :31:09. | :31:17. | |
get a better deal and you can negotiate with more clout against | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
the big six, then that would be a benefit, surely? The idea of people | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
coming together collectively to get a better deal for themselves, we | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
absolutely wholeheartedly support. That after all is what co-opts are | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
about. The consumer co-operative model. Private services are not | :31:34. | :31:43. | |
going to give consumers a completely independent and neutral view of what | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
is out there. Well, we try to save people money and if we can do that, | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
yes, we will make some money. We are not like a traditional switching | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
site. We are not about getting people to switch again and again, | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
which is how they make money. The people who have joined us are people | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
that have never switched and have never done it before and don't want | :32:03. | :32:13. | |
to switch every year. They want a longer term deal and have peace of | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
mind and relax, knowing they have a good deal, without worrying about it | :32:17. | :32:18. | |
for several years. Wood energy companies respond to that? Energy | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
companies support anyway to get consumers engaged. Except for | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
charging less. Gas bills have risen by 41% since 2007 and electricity by | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
20%. The prophet of the energy companies has risen from 5% on each | :32:36. | :32:42. | |
bill in 2010 to 6.7% in 2013. Energy companies are working really hard to | :32:43. | :32:44. | |
keep energy prices as low as possible. A loss of the costs within | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
the bill are outside the companies's control. They are all | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
fighting really hard to win business on price and service. What about | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
investment? Investment is really important. This is why we need a | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
healthy energy sector to invest ?100 million over the next three years to | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
build the new power stations that we need to keep the lights on for our | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
children. Do you agree with Labour's plans to break up the big | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
six energy companies? I think there are certainly some issues about | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
vertical integration and suppliers and selling on bits. That plan is a | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
year and a half away from the election and it will take time to | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
implement. But it is the right plan? We would have to see how it will | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
work. The issue for consumers at the moment is that they want price cuts | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
now. We have seen prices doubled. Huge profits from energy companies, | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
quadrupling from the big six. What we want now is a way of saving | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
people money. Thank you very much. When Sarah Teather entered | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
Parliament in a by-election in 2003, she was seen as a rising star. Two | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
years later, she was on the Lib Dem front bench team, and when the | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
coalition was formed, she became minister for children and families. | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
In 2012, she was reshuffled out of the Government and has since said | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
that she will stand down at the next election. She said she feels | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
desolate about some of the Government's policies. Yesterday I | :34:23. | :34:24. | |
joined her in her North London constituency. The London borough of | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
bread is said to be the most ethnically diverse in the country. | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
The MP, Sarah Teather, shocked everyone by saying she would stand | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
down at the next election, disillusioned by the coalition's | :34:39. | :34:46. | |
policies on immigration and welfare. Cases like that of this Nigerian | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
constituent have angered Sarah Teather. She was working legally as | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
a care assistant for three years that her application to stay longer | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
was rejected at first. The Home Office then changed its mind, but | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
left her in limbo for a year. Because the Home Office did not | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
follow the rules, she found herself effectively in the position of being | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
illegal, and denied the right to work and support her family. When | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
the Government talk about wanting to target people that they describe as | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
illegal, they often mean people that they have screwed up. What was it | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
like during that period when you were in limbo waiting for the Home | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
Office to make a final decision about your application? It was hell. | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
I had no access to public funds. No more housing, no more benefits. It | :35:34. | :35:41. | |
was very sad for me. Did you manage to work? I could not work because I | :35:42. | :35:48. | |
was suspended. I had no visa. So what did you live on? Nothing. | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
Sarah, will you be sad to leave your constituency behind? In lots of ways | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
I will be very sad. I have loved being an MP here. Nothing can change | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
your mind? No. I took a long time to make the decision and I thought | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
about it carefully. I am not going to change my mind. Sarah Teather | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
says that she still has friends in the party but does she think Nick | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
Clegg should continue as leader? I mean, I can't see anybody else who | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
would stand in place of him. Hardly a ringing endorsement from someone | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
who feels that the Lib Dems have stopped standing up for what they | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
believe in. Do you agree there should be a limit on immigration? I | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
think the immigration cap is a very silly policy and the end result is | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
what? British families being split up. Students coming here to pay into | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
the system being turned down. Teenagers getting deported. At the | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
same time, people driving around places like this in a van saying go | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
home. That is the end result of making silly policy. Theresa May | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
coined the phrase the nasty party for her own party. Do you think the | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
Tories still are the nasty party? I think it is very difficult to work | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
face to face with people in a constituency like this and see the | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
inhumane decisions that get made to sanction benefits and turned down | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
immigration cases when they have a legitimate right to be here. It is | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
difficult to work face to face with people like that and not see the | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
Conservatives as the nasty party. There is a certain irony with it | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
being Theresa May making the speech, pointing out to the Tory party that | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
they were in danger of being seen as nasty, when it is Theresa May | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
pushing forward a deeply Draconian and unpleasant bill that will have | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
no benefit for the UK. Sarah Teather joins us now along with a | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
Conservative MP Philip Davies. You saw Sarah Teather in the film | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
describing the welfare cap, sorry, the immigration cap as a silly | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
policy. What do you say to that? I want us to control immigration and | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
the general public wants us to control it and my constituents do. | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
Where the Government has got itself into a mess is that while we are | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
still in the European Union, we cannot control immigration into the | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
country. We cannot cap immigration. I am all for having a proper cap, | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
but that only way to do that is to leave the European Union. So you | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
admit that the immigration target is nonsense because the Government | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
cannot control immigration so was it a silly idea? I think it was a | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
mistake to have a cap and a target when you have no control. You can | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
only have an effective target and cap if you have control over it. | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
Absolutely, I think that was a mistake. The policy objective of | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
reducing immigration into the country is a good one and certainly | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
one that the overwhelming majority of my constituents agree with, and I | :38:50. | :38:58. | |
suspect the overwhelming majority of the country. Why shouldn't there be | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
some limit on immigration? Would you like an open door policy with | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
limitless numbers coming in? No, but immigration policy has to be a | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
balance of what is good for the country and for the people coming | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
here. You need to balance those needs and look at individual areas | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
and understand what skills are required and the corrugated ways in | :39:17. | :39:18. | |
which people contribute, which is not always economic. My trouble is | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
that this policy is not looking across the country and thinking | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
about the wider good of the society. It is about opinion polls, which is | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
not a good way of making policy. That is how people feel. Should they | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
not feel the burden of pressure on schools and hospitals as people do | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
in constituencies where there are high levels of immigration and the | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
place is too small to absorb immigrants? In places like London, | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
the difficulty is caused by the draw of the South East. People are moving | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
from all over the country not just all over the world. People want | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
politicians to show colour -- courage and leadership and not just | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
to do what was in favour at the last opinion poll. You were a minister | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
taking decisions in the last Government so what were you and your | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
Lib Dem colleagues doing? I was certainly fighting a lot of them | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
behind the scenes. Many colleagues still are. That you failed to make | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
an impact. A lot of things were changed but I would like to see more | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
change. That was the price of coalition, if you like. You got your | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
way on having some kind of immigration target, even if the Lib | :40:30. | :40:38. | |
Dems were not wholly supportive of it. You have admitted that it was a | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
complete waste of time. How else would you bring down immigration? At | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
the moment the only way is to leave the EU. We need people with the | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
right skills for the economy and I totally agree with that but with an | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
open border policy, with the EU, anybody can come in whether they | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
have the skills or not. Most people coming from the EU are coming to do | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
low skilled jobs, entry-level jobs, while we have 900,000 people aged 16 | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
to 24 who are unemployed and capable of doing the jobs. It is the low | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
paid people in this country that have suffered as a result. I think | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
it is more complicated than that. A lot of people are struggling to get | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
a job and they are frightened and nervous. We need to focus more on | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
what we can do to get them chances of getting into work. School | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
reforms, apprenticeships, where there has been enormous investment | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
from this Government in making sure people have the skills to get the | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
right kinds of work. But I am not sure pulling out of the EU will be | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
good for Britain as a whole. What will happen to all the jobs that we | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
hope will be available for people if we pull out of the EU? That is not | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
sensible policy either. We have a trade deficit with the EU. We buy | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
much more from them than they buy from us. The idea that Mercedes and | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
BMW will stop the German Government trading freely with us is utter | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
nonsense. We want free trade with Europe but we do not want to be run | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
by them and have unlimited immigration coming in from the EU. | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
Do you think the Tory party is the nasty party? I never did and I would | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
not want to be part of a nasty party. We have a different | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
perspective on things. I think Sarah's views are stupid on many | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
things. But she is entitled to have an opinion, we live in a democracy. | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
Cheers! Just because we disagree does not make one of us nasty and | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
one more pleasant. So why the nasty party? When you asked me the | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
question yesterday, when you work face to face of people and see the | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
consequences in their lives, and you see people left destitute by changes | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
in welfare, people left destitute who want to work, and really had the | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
right to work, and eventually the Home Office accented that my | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
constituents should have been able to remain and to work and they had | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
made a series of errors. -- accepted that my constituent. They had made a | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
series of boxes, which is the Home Office, unfortunately. Do you accept | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
that these policies are leaving some people destitute? Look at the | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
welfare cap. You have to burn ?35,000 a year to get their welfare | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
cap of ?26,000. I think it is nasty to get people to go out and work for | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
less than they are paying in their taxes for somebody else to get food | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
without working at all. I think that is nasty. We have a different | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
perspective on what is nice and nasty. I don't see any great | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
pleasantness about expecting people to go out to work and earn less than | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
people on benefits. The sanctions regime which we were talking about | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
yesterday in the context of that conversation, I have seen people | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
have their benefits removed for having missed their appointments | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
because they were having surgery for a tumour. That is just inhumane. It | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
does not do any good for society and it causes huge damage to that | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
individual. OK. Let's look briefly at the party itself. You have | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
announced that he will step down. Jeremy Browne has said that the | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
Liberal Democrats are too timid, but coming at it from a different | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
political perspective, what do you say to him? He wants profit free | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
schools. Henry is delighted! It see more of a Conservative than Liberal | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
Democrat, Jeremy Browne? I am not going to get into that stuff. Do! | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
You don't agree with him on any of that? I don't. I felt awkward about | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
the way that video was cut to make it look like I am attacking Nick | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
Clegg. I don't want to get into personal politics. But he is talking | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
about policies. You don't agree with cutting the top rate of tax. I don't | :44:59. | :45:08. | |
think cutting the top rate of tax is going to help those people in my | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
constituency to get on or pay into the system, to make sure we can | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
provide quality public services. This is a dilemma for the Liberal | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
Democrats. Is generally mean Brown looking more like a conservative | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
these days with those policy suggestions? -- Jeremy Browne. | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
Looking at the Liberal Democrats over the last four years of the | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
coalition, there's been an internal battle from the very start. I think | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
it was first formed when the decision to go into the coalition | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
happened. Perhaps the grassroots of the party, looking at the | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
conferences and seeing the motions they passed, knowing that wasn't | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
exactly what they wanted or the direction that is. There's always | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
been tension between the Jeromy Brown's in the party and the | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
grassroots, Sarah Teather Dunne views within the party. I think | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
that's healthy, but fundamentally, they are going to have to make a | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
decision quite soon about where they are going to go and what's going to | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
happen. It doesn't seem like it can carry on. You are on the culture | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
committee, should Maria Miller stay or go? Like Sarah, she said we | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
shouldn't get into personalities and views. This is the biggest issue | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
that's been running in Westminster. Rune whether she resigned as a | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
matter for her. The whole thing is extremely damaging for the | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
Conservative Party, it's damaging for Parliament as a whole and | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
politicians, we all get tarnished by the same brush. It's damaging for | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
the Government and the Prime Minister. The sooner the matter is | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
resolved the better. What would resolve it? It's for the Prime | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
Minister and Maria Miller to sort out themselves. It's incredibly | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
damaging for the party, the Government and for all of us in | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
Parliament. The rules have all changed. What has happened couldn't | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
happen now. This is a spill-over from the previous regime. But it | :47:06. | :47:14. | |
still tarnishes all. Ed Miliband has been making a speech in Birmingham | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
this morning and it's all about giving the cities and regions of | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
England more control over housing, transport and employment. Labour | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
says ?20 billion that's currently controlled by Whitehall will instead | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
be handed to local bodies over the lifetime of the next Parliament. | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
Here he is speaking earlier. Labour's message at the next | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
election will be clear. It is about devolving power from Whitehall to | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
our towns and cities. Because it is essential to generate the jobs we | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
need. We propose a new bargain. Cities and towns come together with | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
local businesses will be given historic, new powers over | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
transport, housing, skills and economic development. We're joined | :47:54. | :48:01. | |
now by Andrew Adonis, he's the man behind this plan and he's also | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
shadow Infrastructure Minister. He is in Birmingham. | :48:08. | :48:17. | |
Sometimes you do interviews with people who aren't even in London. | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
Explain this in everyday language. We are talking about devolving more | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
budgets to the level of the cities and the areas around the cities, the | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
city regions and the counties where that make sense, so they can take | :48:32. | :48:38. | |
charge of their own provision in two key areas. Skills and | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
infrastructure, being transport and housing above all. If we are going | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
to drive growth and get more growth companies, we've got to raise our | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
skill levels and have better local infrastructure. We need decisions | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
taken closer to the scene of the action, closer to the companies and | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
areas affected. Departments have been too centralised for too long in | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
this country. I hear every politician saying that, particularly | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
in opposition. All oppositions talk about giving away power until they | :49:09. | :49:11. | |
get power. It will probably not happen if you win the Lex | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
collection. You'll a-macro to be fair, Labour in government took two | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
very big steps on the road to devolution. We set up the devolved | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
governments of Scotland and Wales. We also set up the Mayor of London | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
and the Greater London authority. What happened to regional | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
assemblies? The big issue for us is how we get properly functioning | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
devolution in the cities and counties of England. But that didn't | :49:38. | :49:43. | |
work. It was never implemented. The attempts in the North East to create | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
a regional assembly, we're not talking about that, not a wholly new | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
tier of government. We are talking about bringing together local | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
enterprise partnerships which exist at the moment. We will not do what | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
the present government did and abolish what was there before when | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
we abolished -- they abolished the agencies. We will take those | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
partnerships, which are doing good work and need more power and four | :50:07. | :50:09. | |
budget, and put them together with the local authority leaders that | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
cover their area so they can make decisions jointly and have joint | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
control over budgets, which puts business leaders and local authority | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
leaders in charge. In Birmingham, the local enterprise partnership | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
covers Birmingham, the area around it and Solihull. That is a travel to | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
work area with a really important growth driver in terms of jobs. They | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
would then be able to do much more of the planning of their | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
infrastructure and their skill set. If this were to work that would be | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
great, but in terms of grabbing voters, in terms of it being one of | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
your headlines in your manifesto, when people are still going to be | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
worried about one of Labour's other themes, the cost of living, and | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
generally about the economy, it's just not going to do it, is it? You | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
need a manifesto full of policies. The key game here is putting in | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
place arrangements that will promote more and better jobs. Let's take a | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
concrete example. There's a message -- massive shortage of youth | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
apprenticeships in this country. The number has fallen since 2010, which | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
is why we have mass youth unemployment and local employers, | :51:20. | :51:21. | |
including employers here in Birmingham, crying out for young | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
people with skills. One of the key functions we want to devolved is | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
responsibility for promoting apprenticeship to local employers. | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
We've got Jaguar Land Rover, a fantastic local employer here, | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
expanding and wanting to create new jobs in companies that supply them, | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
but they are desperately short of apprentices. Who is more likely to | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
deliver those apprentice? A business body with strong roots in the | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
locality or quango in London? The quango in London has clearly failed. | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
Let's put local people in charge. How much money would you have to put | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
into the city and county regions? We haven't been precise because we are | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
looking at it individually. The present government is devolving only | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
a tiny sum... So you'd have to cut at the Department's budgets to pay | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
for it? We're not talking about cutting budgets but devolving them. | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
If you just take skills, a budget held centrally of more than ?1 | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
billion. It's all run by a quango which sits in Whitehall. The | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
question which is facing us is whether that money would be better | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
spent and produce much better results for companies and young | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
people if it were devolved locally, so that local business leaders and | :52:41. | :52:42. | |
local authorities, which are much closer to the scene of the action | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
and they would have a much bigger say and how it is spent. When | :52:46. | :52:55. | |
special advisers are in the news it's safe to say it's probably for | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
the wrong reasons. Spads, as they're known, are meant to help ministers | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
with the kind of sticky issues that are too political for the civil | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
servants to touch. It could be briefing the media or injecting the | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
party line into a new policy. It doesn't always go smoothly - let's | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
take a look. If they ever get into the press at all, which they | :53:14. | :53:15. | |
shouldn't, it's always an episode of when Spads go bad! Joe Hind Lee is | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
this week's flak magnet, special adviser to Maria Miller who did or | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
did not threaten a newspaper. Maria has been having quite a lot of | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
meetings around leaves on. But she still standing tall and in a job, | :53:32. | :53:39. | |
unlike her predecessor as a culture secretary Spad. He went into hiding | :53:40. | :53:49. | |
and the press hunted him down. It looks like a Spad, walks like a | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
Spad, talks like a Spad, but he wasn't and lost Liam Fox's job. | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
Damian McBride was the ultimate killer Spad. Ruthless, reckless, | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
ready and refreshed. He came a cropper after a career of mailing | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
opponents. He made up stories then resurfaced to tell his own in a | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
book. Message to Stephen Byers' special adviser, there is no good | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
day to bury bad news, as she famously, callously e-mailed | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
colleagues. And, with spectacular irony, promptly became bad news and | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
was buried. If ever there was a Spad and from a young age was born to the | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
calling, branded crazy zealot by his enemies and a reforming profit by | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
his supporters, Dominic Cummings, this disciple of the Lord Michael | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
Gove Almighty, has now himself consigned his Spad Korea to the | :54:46. | :54:52. | |
grave. After that trip down memory lane, we're joined by the Daily | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
Telegraph's Whitehall watcher Sue Cameron, and Henry de Zoete is a | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
former special adviser. How crucial is your old role to a cabinet | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
secretary? I think special advisers are very important, but I think | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
there's a bit of a misunderstanding about what we do. Of course there | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
are the examples that were picked up on film, which is fair enough. To | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
give you what I was doing in the department and what Dominic Cummings | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
was doing, we work... Well, we were mainly focusing on the priorities of | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
the Secretary of State and project managing them to the department. | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
Dominic basically spent probably about 1% of his time on any sort of | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
media issue, I spent a bit more because I was more of a media | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
special adviser. But what we have to do was pick out the policies we | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
wanted to get most traction to get through the department, to happen on | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
the ground as quickly as possible. Then we will project managing those | :55:44. | :55:54. | |
through the system. Do you accept there was a level of ideological | :55:55. | :55:56. | |
zeal being injected by you and Dominic Cummings in the education | :55:57. | :55:58. | |
department to get Michael Gove's point across? Absolutely not. | :55:59. | :56:00. | |
Obviously we believed in our policies, but what we were trying to | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
do and, unfortunately, I worked with some brilliant civil servants and | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
they are brilliant, but the system itself that they are in, it makes it | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
very difficult to ensure that the project goes through and is | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
delivered properly at the end. There are countless examples where we had | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
to do it ourselves. There were reported highly personal attacks on | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
a certain journalist, that came from the education department and a | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
Twitter feed. Those things were reported as coming from a Twitter | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
feed. They weren't from you? It was nothing to do with us. Is that a | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
more sanitised view of what a special adviser does? I think it | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
partly reflect the fact they are a very mixed bunch. A lot of them do | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
very different things. Some of them do concentrate very much on the | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
media, others are more policy. A few, though why they are needed I | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
don't know, politicians should be their own advisers, but some | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
actually advise on the politics of things. One of the problems with | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
them, there are some very good ones but they are not civil servants, who | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
are totally impartial, and nor are they democratically elected. They | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
are basically minister's mates. That is one of the difficulties. Some of | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
them, as the ones you've just seen, go rogue. They were supposed to be | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
cutting the number of Alun Reess but they've increased. -year-old one of | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
the reasons for that is because we are in coalition. Poor old Nick | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
Clegg was sitting in Downing Street and he's meant to keep an eye on | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
everything in every department. He had one man and a dog to help him. | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
That's one of the reasons why there is more of them. Is it up to | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
ministers to rein in special advisers who do end up doing things | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
that are unacceptable? Yes, I think it is up to ministers. But I think | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
it is an unsatisfactory situation. I think there needs to be some way of | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
bringing special advisers into the democratic setup. Whether they have | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
to be approved by backbench MPs or by the civil service commission, | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
some kind of system. Watt -- I think the idea of getting more highly | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
qualified people into those roles is a good one. What about the vetting | :58:27. | :58:33. | |
side a bit? There is such a crucial role they play next to a Secretary | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
of State, that the Secretary of State has to be able to decide who | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
that is. If there is some sort of system, it should be looked at. I | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
remember sitting, when I wasn't in government but I used to work with a | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
whole load of Labour special advisers, and David Cameron | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
announced he was cutting the number of special advisers. They all said | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
that was the worst decision he'd made. The question was, who did Nick | :58:57. | :59:05. | |
Boles speculate might be the best MP to play the game of Thrones | :59:06. | :59:13. | |
character Daenerys Targaryen? I can only think of Nadine. Nadine Dorries | :59:14. | :59:21. | |
is the right answer. That's all for today. Thanks to our guests. Andrew | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
and I will be back tomorrow. Goodbye. | :59:28. | :59:30. |