13/06/2014 Daily Politics


13/06/2014

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew discusses the situation in Iraq with Tony Blair's former envoy Ann Clwyd.


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Barack Obama says all options are on the table but it's still not

:00:36.:00:44.

clear if he intends to do very much about the collapse of Iraq.

:00:45.:00:47.

In the last 24 hours the Islamist extremists have seized two new towns

:00:48.:00:50.

The Governor of the Bank of England warns interest rates may rise sooner

:00:51.:00:57.

than the markets expect. But how soon?

:00:58.:01:01.

We report on the wheeler-dealering in Brussels as

:01:02.:01:04.

newly-elected MEPs try to form new pan-European political groupings.

:01:05.:01:10.

And did you know that as well as its own flag,

:01:11.:01:13.

All that in the next hour and with us for the next half

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an hour is Times political correspondent Laura Pitel.

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Let's kick off with last night's warning

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from the Bank of England governor Mark Carney that interest rates

:01:47.:01:49.

It rather overshadowed everything that George Osborne had to say.

:01:50.:02:04.

There is speculation about the exact timing of the first rate hike and

:02:05.:02:09.

this decision is becoming more balanced. It could happen sooner

:02:10.:02:14.

than financial markets currently expect. But to be clear, there is no

:02:15.:02:22.

preset course. The ultimate decision will be driven by the data. That was

:02:23.:02:28.

the governor last night. A characteristic dry delivery that he

:02:29.:02:31.

gives. Any idea why he has decided to say this? He wants to give people

:02:32.:02:37.

a warning. If interest rates are going to go up it could be good news

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for savers. We have had rubbish rates. They will not go much. And it

:02:43.:02:47.

could be serious news for people with a mortgage. Some people are

:02:48.:02:52.

struggling to handle the cost of living and if you're going to have a

:02:53.:02:55.

massive hike on your mortgage payment, it is bad news. But it will

:02:56.:03:02.

not be a massive hike to begin with. The governor has made it clear

:03:03.:03:03.

not be a massive hike to begin with. that any rise will be very small to

:03:04.:03:07.

begin with. And even when he reaches the peak of the interest rate cycle,

:03:08.:03:10.

he does not think it will go back to the average of 5% before the crash,

:03:11.:03:16.

it is more likely to be around three. It is not good news of you

:03:17.:03:25.

have a mortgage but it may not be a disaster? It may be 2.25% over the

:03:26.:03:27.

next three years. Mark Carney made it clear it would be a slow change

:03:28.:03:32.

but it is interesting politically, because we had expected that the

:03:33.:03:36.

interest rate hike might be held after the general election but comes

:03:37.:03:41.

forward, is tricky. I have always thought he would not put interest

:03:42.:03:45.

rates up until the second half of the next year. But the markets have

:03:46.:03:51.

been pricing he would do it in the first part of next year, maybe the

:03:52.:03:58.

first quarter. I wonder, he said he may do it sooner than the markets

:03:59.:04:02.

were expecting. He may want to get it in this year, the first rise,

:04:03.:04:07.

because to raise interest rates in the middle of an election campaign,

:04:08.:04:13.

which will start on January one, is probably a sensible thing for any

:04:14.:04:21.

banker to do. The markets have been expecting it in February time, maybe

:04:22.:04:26.

before Christmas, in November. It presents a tricky dilemma for George

:04:27.:04:30.

Osborne. If there is an interest rate rise he will say the economy is

:04:31.:04:35.

recovering, we need it. It was interesting last night because he

:04:36.:04:38.

said the economy was growing at an annual rate of 4%. If it is true

:04:39.:04:46.

then you cannot keep interest rates at 0.5%. No, you cannot because

:04:47.:04:51.

inflation will end up going out of control. The thing that is tricky is

:04:52.:04:56.

Ed Miliband's big thing is the cost of living crisis. If the interest

:04:57.:05:00.

rates go up, people will have bigger mortgage payments and that will play

:05:01.:05:05.

into his agenda. If you have a mortgage, you should do your own

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risk assessment and look at what will happen if interest rates go up

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one and a half, 2%, where would that leave you with mortgage payments?

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Exactly. Now it's time for our daily quiz.

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David and Samantha Cameron were papped

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on Wednesday having a night out in central London, so our question

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for today is, what were they doing? Was it a)

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Seeing the play Handbagged? b) Hanging out with celebs

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at the Chiltern Firehouse? c) Enjoying some peri

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peri chicken at Nandos? d) Partying in the notorious Soho

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nightclub The Box? And a bit later in the show Laura

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will give us the correct answer. Dealing with education manifesto

:05:45.:06:08.

gets people squabbling like kids in a classroom. Here is what Nick Clegg

:06:09.:06:14.

had to say. All parents, all mums and dads need parental guarantee

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that regardless of what school their children go to cover all of their

:06:21.:06:24.

children will be taught by qualified teachers, teachers who are seeking

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and all their children will be taught a core body of knowledge,

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regardless of whether the school is a free School, an academy or a

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maintained school. We've been joined from Liverpool

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by the Lib Dem's education spokesman What is new is what has been brought

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about by the situation in Birmingham where the schools have not had the

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freedom to teach a national curriculum and have got themselves

:07:07.:07:10.

into all sorts of problems. I believe, as a head teacher myself

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for 25 years, the most important thing for me in education is having

:07:15.:07:18.

a qualified teacher. And secondly, making sure that all schools,

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whether they are free schools are academies, follow a slimmed down

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national curriculum which makes sure that we teach and give people the

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flexibility which they have. If qualified teachers are so important,

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when the academies act was passed in 2010 which allows for unqualified

:07:46.:07:51.

teachers in academies, why did only six Lib Dem MPs vote against it?

:07:52.:07:56.

First of all, you are right, Labour allowed academies to have

:07:57.:08:00.

non-qualified teachers teaching. This was the Tory legislation. The

:08:01.:08:05.

original academies at brought under the Blair government allowed for the

:08:06.:08:08.

first time non-qualified teachers to be teaching in the classroom. Long

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before that we had a system which does not get a mention, which is

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when teachers are sick or on a course, you often have teaching

:08:18.:08:20.

assistants brought in who do not have teaching qualifications. They

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do a fantastic job but they are not qualified teachers. To go back to

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your direct question, I think you learn from what happens. I think

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politicians have said that is quite wrong. They should not be chastised,

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they should be welcomed for being brave enough to say no, in all

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schools, the most important thing is the quality of the teacher and that

:08:43.:08:48.

goes without saying. Mr Clegg, the leader of your party and Mr laws in

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the education department, they were both taught by unqualified teachers.

:08:55.:09:00.

What damage did it do them? It is not to say there are not occasions

:09:01.:09:04.

where you bring people into schools, into a classroom situation, who have

:09:05.:09:11.

real qualities and expertise in a particular area, but the day-to-day

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classroom teaching, whether it is in the primary school, or whether it is

:09:18.:09:21.

in a secondary school, needs somebody who is qualified and

:09:22.:09:25.

trained. What do we mean by that? They know about child development.

:09:26.:09:30.

Can the person who taught David Laws or Nick Clegg be able to identify if

:09:31.:09:34.

a child was dyslexic or not? If you just bring anybody in, those vital

:09:35.:09:38.

ingredients of qualification are lost. And actually, it can be very

:09:39.:09:44.

dangerous. New -- you need people who are qualified but also people

:09:45.:09:47.

who will inspire and motivate. You will remember probably a teacher who

:09:48.:09:52.

inspired you and that goes for all of us. If there are inspiring

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teachers and schools who are not qualified and they do not want to go

:09:58.:10:01.

down the route of qualification, will you fire them? If somebody does

:10:02.:10:08.

not want to become a qualified teacher and we agree that all

:10:09.:10:10.

children have the right to be taught by a qualified teacher, they will

:10:11.:10:14.

have to step aside and maybe they will become a classroom assistant or

:10:15.:10:19.

an assistant teacher. So inspiring teachers, if they do not follow your

:10:20.:10:24.

rules, you will fire them? I did not say that. If somebody does not want

:10:25.:10:29.

to become a qualified teacher, they can become an assistant to a

:10:30.:10:34.

qualified teacher. They will be downgraded? That is an insult to

:10:35.:10:40.

classroom assistants who do a fantastic job. They assist teachers

:10:41.:10:43.

so an inspiring teacher who does not want to follow your rules will be

:10:44.:10:51.

demoted to an assistant? So your assistant producer is downgraded?

:10:52.:10:54.

You have not met my assistant producers say he would not be saying

:10:55.:10:59.

that! While I have got you on, you will see that Mr Miliband and Mr

:11:00.:11:03.

Clegg got their photographs taken with the Sun newspaper, apparently

:11:04.:11:07.

it is something to do with a sporting competition going on in

:11:08.:11:12.

Brazil at the moment. The leader of the Liberal Democrats in Liverpool

:11:13.:11:13.

has Brazil at the moment. The leader of

:11:14.:11:14.

the Liberal Democrats called on Mr Clegg to apologise for being seen

:11:15.:11:18.

with the Sun. You Clegg to apologise for being seen

:11:19.:11:21.

with the were a city councillor and city leader of Liverpool Council,

:11:22.:11:25.

should he apologise? Of course he should. I do not think people

:11:26.:11:30.

outside Merseyside realise the great upset and harm that the Sun caused

:11:31.:11:36.

people of the city. It is an insult to what has happened. Both Miliband

:11:37.:11:42.

and Nick Clegg should clearly apologise for the hurt they have

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caused, particularly to the family and friends of those people

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tragically killed at Hillsborough. and friends of those people

:11:50.:11:54.

Thank you for that. Nice to talk to you.

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Interesting there. There is pressure on both. I am puzzled with Mr

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on both. I am puzzled with Miliband. Mr Clegg is a northern MP

:12:01.:12:06.

as well. Why did it not stored on any of the people around them that

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being seen holding up a copy of the Sun would not go down in Liverpool?

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Ya No the Sun knows it will not go down well because they did not

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deliver the paper there. It is an interesting situation. They could

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have done without this after the bacon sandwich incident. In a great

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he looked quite silly in the photo to add insult to injury. It is

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remarkable that they pay all these people for advice. I understand that

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Mr Miliband has apologised to the people of Merseyside, much good it

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will probably do him and no doubt Mr Clegg will follow. It is apology

:12:48.:12:53.

Friday. ISIS is an extreme Sunni Islamist

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group which used to be a franchise of Al-Qaeda but became too hard line

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even for it. It is now in control of huge swathes of eastern Iraq, the

:13:04.:13:09.

country's second city. Everywhere it goes, it opens the jails to boost

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its numbers, empties the banks to fund its operation and enforces the

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strictest sharia law, including executions, amputations, beheadings

:13:19.:13:26.

and crucifixions. It has taken a further two towns close to Baghdad

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which is now preparing for an attack. President Obama has said

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nothing except he is looking at his options, none of which are great.

:13:35.:13:38.

Meanwhile, Iran's Revolutionary guard has been deployed to aid its

:13:39.:13:42.

beleaguered Shia allies in the east of Iraq. We will talk about what is

:13:43.:13:46.

happening there in the moment but first, let's have a look at the

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timeline of events in Iraq since the invasion in 2003.

:13:53.:13:57.

British and American troops invaded Iraq in March 2003, leading to the

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toppling of Saddam Hussein's government. In September, the former

:14:02.:14:05.

president was captured near his hometown of Tikrit which has just

:14:06.:14:11.

been taken by ISIS. The following summer the US-led administration

:14:12.:14:14.

transferred powers to the Iraqi government. Two years later, Nouri

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al-Maliki formed the first post-war government. Later that year, Sadam

:14:20.:14:27.

Hussein was executed. In 2007, Britain handed over the Basra

:14:28.:14:31.

province to Iraqi forces. It marked the end of five years of British

:14:32.:14:36.

occupation but Britain had lost control of southern Iraq before they

:14:37.:14:41.

left. And the last troops withdrew from the country in September 2011.

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Mr Obama wanted to keep some aside. 2013 was Iraq's deadliest year since

:14:51.:14:56.

2008 with nearly 10,000 civilians killed in clashes between security

:14:57.:15:00.

forces and largely Sunni Islamist militants. In April this year,

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Iraqis voted in their first parliamentary elections since the

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withdrawal of US troops but the elections were marred by nationwide

:15:10.:15:10.

violence. Last night, Barack Obama said Iraq

:15:11.:15:15.

was going to need more help from the US and the international community

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and did not rule out airstrikes. My team is

:15:19.:15:21.

working around the clock to identify how we can provide the most

:15:22.:15:23.

effective assistance to them. I don't rule out anything because we

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do have a stake in making sure that these jihadists are not getting a

:15:26.:15:30.

permanent foothold in either Iraq or I'm joined now from Cardiff by

:15:31.:15:38.

Ann Clwyd, who was Tony Blair's special envoy on human rights to

:15:39.:15:46.

Iraq in 2003, John McTernan, who worked for Tony Blair

:15:47.:15:50.

in Downing Street, is in Edinburgh. And Richard Ottaway,

:15:51.:15:53.

chair of the Foreign Affairs Select You listened to President Obama, it

:15:54.:16:08.

does not really sound like he knows what to do. He has made it clear

:16:09.:16:13.

there will not be boots on the ground that he is prepared to

:16:14.:16:18.

intervene. I expect there is quite a bit of intelligence and an

:16:19.:16:23.

assessment on what is going on. What will this amount to? At the moment,

:16:24.:16:31.

it will be logistical, humanitarian intelligence -based. I do not know

:16:32.:16:37.

what that means? That means you can provide support for getting more

:16:38.:16:41.

equipment there, humanitarian means money for aid. They have all the

:16:42.:16:54.

latest American equipment. This is a fast moving situation and you do not

:16:55.:16:59.

want to have knee jerk reactions. I am asking you what you think the

:17:00.:17:05.

President should do. He has said he is considering all options. That is

:17:06.:17:11.

the right thing to do. There is nothing obvious that the West can

:17:12.:17:17.

do. What is important is to prop up the Kurds in the north. They are an

:17:18.:17:24.

oasis of stability and prosperity. They have the good, well-trained

:17:25.:17:28.

army. They have been circumvented. A lot of our focus should go on there.

:17:29.:17:35.

But, it is not to say we are not interested and you have to look at

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the options. There is nothing obvious the West can do, is there?

:17:40.:17:46.

They can accelerate the supply of the new equipment to Iraq. They can

:17:47.:17:51.

obviously, as Richard said, shared intelligence. And for the Kurdish

:17:52.:18:01.

autonomous region, it is vital they do offer specific support like

:18:02.:18:04.

restoring the no-fly zone. You can do air strikes. There is a capacity

:18:05.:18:11.

for us to strike if we need to. What is the point of providing the Iraqi

:18:12.:18:18.

army with new equipment if it drops it and runs away and it ends up in

:18:19.:18:25.

the hands of Islamist militants? Sky it is very clear that when the Prime

:18:26.:18:31.

Minister ordered the British and American troops to leave, he made a

:18:32.:18:36.

massive, strategic error. In the end, if we do not want Baghdad to

:18:37.:18:45.

fall and for democracy to stay, we will have to act. I'd take a more

:18:46.:18:49.

positive view of what President Obama has said. What is the point of

:18:50.:18:54.

giving them equipment they are not prepared to use? The most

:18:55.:18:57.

sophisticated equipment is now ending up in the hands of ISIS. What

:18:58.:19:09.

is clear is that we need to give military, defence and military

:19:10.:19:14.

support everywhere we can. It takes time to make any deployment. We must

:19:15.:19:18.

be clear and President Obama has been clear we will not allow ISIS to

:19:19.:19:23.

gain a country from which they can then export the terrorism fell in

:19:24.:19:27.

the region. How to we make that clear? Iran knows what it is doing.

:19:28.:19:33.

It is deploying Revolutionary guards to help its Shi'ite friends in

:19:34.:19:39.

Baghdad. Had we make it clear? We have no power to make it clear? Iraq

:19:40.:19:47.

is in a very difficult situation at the moment. I had a phone call ten

:19:48.:19:51.

minutes ago from the wife of a man who was the Water Minister in

:19:52.:19:54.

Baghdad. She is the sister-in-law of the President. She said to me that

:19:55.:20:02.

ten young women have been captured by ISIS on the road from Baghdad to

:20:03.:20:07.

Kurdistan. Now they are demanding a ransom for each one of them. We know

:20:08.:20:14.

how difficult the situation is. The question is, what is to be done? I

:20:15.:20:20.

am not hearing anything that is so far practical. Sky we cannot

:20:21.:20:23.

possibly say exactly what the military should do. I worry about

:20:24.:20:31.

things like drones. They have too many accidents and bombed the wrong

:20:32.:20:37.

people very often. I am concerned about the vast number of people,

:20:38.:20:41.

there are supposed to be half a million people already, who have

:20:42.:20:44.

gone towards the burden with Kurdistan. I think the Kurds are

:20:45.:20:49.

perfectly able to protect themselves. They moved into Cukor

:20:50.:20:54.

and that has been a disputed territory for some time. -- Kirkuk.

:20:55.:21:05.

It is about the rest of the country. It is an urgent situation. I think

:21:06.:21:09.

the intelligence, both on the American side and the British side,

:21:10.:21:14.

has been absolutely rotten. The Pentagon warned the president in

:21:15.:21:17.

February of this year this would happen, in broad terms, and nothing

:21:18.:21:23.

was done. I will come to Richard now. The Kurds ignored the Americans

:21:24.:21:32.

and formed their own army. What is the point of a no-fly zone over what

:21:33.:21:38.

we might call Kurdistan in northern Iraq? ISIS do not have any planes.

:21:39.:21:45.

Kurdistan is now a semi-independent autonomous region. It was not given

:21:46.:21:48.

to them by the Americans. They had their own constitution. High point

:21:49.:21:56.

is that the Americans did not want the Kurds to have an army. -- my

:21:57.:22:10.

point is. My point is they do not need our protection. You are

:22:11.:22:17.

disillusioned to think the Kurds do not need our protection. What we

:22:18.:22:22.

do? We need to tell them we are right behind them and standing

:22:23.:22:27.

shoulder to shoulder with them. What does that mean? Politically, it

:22:28.:22:33.

means quite a lot. If you are going to say you are going to give all

:22:34.:22:37.

that it needs to protect the region, that can possibly prevent an

:22:38.:22:43.

escalation. I do not think we have the capacity to deploy troops. Going

:22:44.:22:49.

back to your original question, we have participated in a no-fly zone

:22:50.:22:53.

before, together with the Americans. Whether we have the capacity now to

:22:54.:22:59.

do so again remains to be seen. I asked the question. What is the

:23:00.:23:04.

point of a no-fly zone in northern Iraq when ISIS do not have any

:23:05.:23:10.

planes? If you can control airspace, you can often control the

:23:11.:23:14.

ground. You need a military person here to say it. They have already

:23:15.:23:23.

captured helicopters. They are very sophisticated helicopters. It is

:23:24.:23:29.

unlikely they know how to fly them. Northern Iraq seems to be under

:23:30.:23:34.

control at the moment. Is dinner rack is now in the hands of a

:23:35.:23:43.

machine that was too powerful for Al-Qaeda. The Americans are helping

:23:44.:23:49.

in the West and helping the Government in eastern Iraq. The

:23:50.:23:58.

company is de facto partitioned. Sky you cannot say it will be

:23:59.:24:03.

partitioned. It is occupied by ISIS. There has been a catastrophic

:24:04.:24:09.

failure by the Prime Minister and we are in an extraordinary situation

:24:10.:24:12.

where the new relationship that America has with Ron is being tested

:24:13.:24:17.

in a very challenging way, a way we have not anticipated. -- with Irani.

:24:18.:24:23.

Grant will also protect the Kurds. We do have to go back to using our

:24:24.:24:28.

intelligence and using drone strikes, actually using the weapons

:24:29.:24:33.

we have. We do not need boots on the ground. We will probably have to be

:24:34.:24:43.

talking to Iran at the moment. Was the real catastrophic failure not

:24:44.:24:48.

John McTiernan and and included, going into the country in the first

:24:49.:24:54.

place? There was no Al-Qaeda Organisation in 2003 and the place

:24:55.:25:01.

is covered with them now. A man was in charge committed to the genocide

:25:02.:25:07.

of the Kurds. It is an utterly amoral position to say we would

:25:08.:25:12.

rather have a fascist dictator, a strong man, holding that they

:25:13.:25:18.

Al-Qaeda and holding at bay Irani. It is an amoral politics. We have no

:25:19.:25:22.

idea what the Coalition Government thinks. They appear to have no

:25:23.:25:28.

foreign policy in this area. They have not said we should intervene or

:25:29.:25:32.

do what ever President Obama has done. They are silent because they

:25:33.:25:37.

have no idea what to do. It is a shocking disgrace to have our

:25:38.:25:41.

government in that position. It is true that Saddam Hussein was a

:25:42.:25:52.

fascist dictatorship. There is crucifying and beheading at the

:25:53.:25:55.

moment. The difference is that these people can export back to the West.

:25:56.:26:01.

Saddam Hussein did not do that. He might have done that, Andrew. It is

:26:02.:26:07.

not true to say archives was not in Iraq before 2003. Ask the Kurds. --

:26:08.:26:17.

Al-Qaeda. Kurds were being executed and the Americans were called in.

:26:18.:26:24.

There were a handful of them and the place is awash. Please started off

:26:25.:26:32.

as a handful. Andrew is the chair of the foreign affairs select

:26:33.:26:37.

committee. We were due to go to Kurdistan this Sunday. We were given

:26:38.:26:41.

a security briefing on Tuesday and it seemed to me that people than

:26:42.:26:46.

were only vaguely aware of what was going on. I do not think we knew

:26:47.:26:56.

much of anything. What is coalition policy at the moment? It is

:26:57.:27:03.

ridiculous to say the Foreign Office has no policy. The policy has always

:27:04.:27:12.

been to recognise Iraq as a state which we supported. We will provide

:27:13.:27:17.

it with humanitarian support and political support. That will

:27:18.:27:21.

continue to be the case. This has caught at everyone. I think you

:27:22.:27:27.

would rather have a Revolutionary guard, wouldn't you? I am not sure

:27:28.:27:32.

he would like to have the Revolutionary guard from Tehran, to

:27:33.:27:37.

be honest with you. He has got it. Since when? It is pretty rich for

:27:38.:27:50.

the Iranians to be complaining. This attack from ISIS was born in an

:27:51.:27:55.

unstable region of Syria. The reason it is unstable is because the lack

:27:56.:28:01.

of support by the Iranians. You heard Richard to weigh outline

:28:02.:28:12.

coalition policy. You any the wiser? I am not. There is a savage irony

:28:13.:28:19.

that this does start in Syria so that a place that we intervened in

:28:20.:28:22.

successfully is being stabilised by a place that we did not intervene

:28:23.:28:28.

in. What is Labour 's policy in this matter? Labour 's policy is to

:28:29.:28:39.

support. It is rare for the opposition to split from what the

:28:40.:28:42.

Government is doing. The pressure is on the Government to say what they

:28:43.:28:49.

are going to do. Labour has always been clear about support for the

:28:50.:28:53.

Kurds in the autonomous region. That is the test I apply to all of this.

:28:54.:28:59.

What is in the best interests of the Kurds? What is in their best

:29:00.:29:04.

interests would be in the best interests of everyone. I think there

:29:05.:29:13.

is a dark humour in talking about us. I do not understand how our

:29:14.:29:22.

politicians can talk about we doing something militarily when you have

:29:23.:29:26.

made redundant and other round of troops this week. We have not said

:29:27.:29:34.

we will intervene militarily. That is not a policy. It is a clear

:29:35.:29:40.

policy. In international affairs quit you cannot react to a situation

:29:41.:29:44.

that started on Tuesday with an instant policy by Friday. You have

:29:45.:29:48.

to sit back, assess what is going on on the ground, and come up with

:29:49.:29:53.

something clear. That is why the Labour Party is not saying anything

:29:54.:29:57.

because they agree with that. That would be true of the Americans. They

:29:58.:30:01.

have a big decision to take. We should stop behaving as if we have

:30:02.:30:11.

any say, or any clout, in this matter whatsoever. As a permanent

:30:12.:30:13.

member of the Security Council of the United Nations, we have a lot of

:30:14.:30:18.

say in what happens with world affairs and what will happen here.

:30:19.:30:24.

What would you do? Sky I would say everybody took their eye off the

:30:25.:30:30.

ball. -- I would say. Everybody took their eye off the ball. That is a

:30:31.:30:36.

big mistake. We went into Iraq to create a democracy. We did not have

:30:37.:30:42.

a plan to do so. We lost control of southern Iraq even before we left

:30:43.:30:46.

and we ended up with a sectarian Prime Minister in Iraq, who, the

:30:47.:30:53.

first thing he did was start to attack and discriminate against

:30:54.:31:02.

Sunnis. We did have democratic elections. I was there for the first

:31:03.:31:07.

one. People turned out in their masses to vote. That was the first

:31:08.:31:12.

time they were able to vote freely. Much good it has done them. The

:31:13.:31:18.

results of the recent election means Nouri al-Maliki has not got a

:31:19.:31:22.

majority. There is a group of people all with particular points of view

:31:23.:31:26.

and he must try and pull them together as he did before. He has

:31:27.:31:32.

alienated the Sunnis, that is true. They felt they were completely left

:31:33.:31:38.

out of planning for the new Iraq. It varies from wherever you live. Some

:31:39.:31:44.

areas get 24 hours electricity, some areas only get four hours a day. I

:31:45.:31:49.

understand that. John McTernan, I would suggest to you, this is not

:31:50.:31:54.

just an Iraqi problem, it is a regional problem. The whole of the

:31:55.:32:00.

region from Beirut, from Lebanon, through to the Gulf states opposite

:32:01.:32:06.

Iran, are basically in the grip of a Sunni Shia sectarian war? That is

:32:07.:32:10.

what is going on in that part of the world. And in these circumstances,

:32:11.:32:16.

the West is unlikely to be more than a spectator? I think it is right

:32:17.:32:24.

that it is a regional conflict and it is right to see Iran in the hand

:32:25.:32:29.

of destabilisation in the region. It is wrong that you have to have a

:32:30.:32:32.

sectarian fight between Sunnis and Shia 's. It does not happen in the

:32:33.:32:39.

Kurdish region, it did not happen in Baghdad initially after the

:32:40.:32:42.

liberation. We know how to deal with ISIS. It is what we did when we were

:32:43.:32:49.

there. Using special forces work, using intelligence worked.

:32:50.:32:54.

Interrupting the line of supply for the car bombers worked. The tragedy

:32:55.:32:58.

is, the cuts the coalition have made the British Army mean we do not have

:32:59.:33:03.

a deployable force any more. There is no political appetite to deploy

:33:04.:33:07.

it either. The British people will not stand for a further deployment

:33:08.:33:14.

into the Middle East? I'm not clear about that at all. British people

:33:15.:33:16.

believe in democracy at have no options is terrible. Richard

:33:17.:33:23.

Ottaway, I wonder whether ISIS will go into Baghdad because Baghdad will

:33:24.:33:32.

be heavily defended and the Shia militia have been mobilised. It may

:33:33.:33:36.

suit their purpose is to control the western part of Iraq, where the

:33:37.:33:42.

border with Syria is now porous and they have the caliphate? I think

:33:43.:33:46.

they would like to go into Baghdad but they think it is a step too far.

:33:47.:33:51.

I think they will probably sit back now and as you alluded to, I think

:33:52.:33:56.

we'll see a regional setup here, the Kurds to the north-east, ISIS on the

:33:57.:34:01.

Syrian border and to the west and the shears to the south. We will

:34:02.:34:05.

have to leave it there. I thank all three of you for that discussion --

:34:06.:34:09.

the sheers to the south. We will cover this on the sunbaked politics

:34:10.:34:16.

as well on BBC One this Sunday. -- we will cover this on the Sunday

:34:17.:34:17.

Politics as well. We asked what David and

:34:18.:34:21.

Samantha Cameron were doing when they were spotted on

:34:22.:34:25.

a night out in central London. Was it a) Seeing the play

:34:26.:34:28.

Handbagged? b) Hanging out with celebs

:34:29.:34:29.

at the Chiltern Firehouse? c) Enjoying some peri

:34:30.:34:31.

peri chicken at Nandos? d) Partying in the notorious Soho

:34:32.:34:33.

nightclub The Box? So, Laura,

:34:34.:34:36.

what's the correct answer? It is the Chiltern Firehouse. Had he

:34:37.:34:47.

been? I have not been, I'm told there is a six month waiting list.

:34:48.:34:51.

Can you get me in? I will see what I can do.

:34:52.:34:55.

Coming up in a moment it's our regular look at what's been

:34:56.:34:59.

For now it's time to say goodbye to Laura Pitel.

:35:00.:35:03.

So for the next half an hour we're going to be focussing on Europe.

:35:04.:35:06.

We'll be discussing who'll be the next president of the

:35:07.:35:09.

EU Commission, looking at some of the new parties in the European

:35:10.:35:11.

Parliament, and asking whether the EU is right to have its own anthem.

:35:12.:35:15.

First though here's our guide to the latest from Europe,

:35:16.:35:17.

You wait for a taxi and then all turn up at once. European cities

:35:18.:35:30.

were gridlocked as cab drivers blocked streets were testing against

:35:31.:35:35.

an app which they say will push them off the board.

:35:36.:35:42.

The tax affairs of Star Bucks will be investigated to see if they are

:35:43.:35:44.

not paying their share. It was three men and a powerful

:35:45.:35:51.

woman in a boat in Sweden. David Cameron went to meet the Swedish and

:35:52.:35:54.

Dutch prime ministers and German Chancellor Angela Merkel. They rowed

:35:55.:35:58.

and then row. The PM's confidence seems to have sunk after the

:35:59.:36:03.

discussions. We're here to discuss the policies which the commission

:36:04.:36:06.

should take over the next five years. That is what the discussions

:36:07.:36:12.

have about, not people. Meanwhile, Mr Junco was in a bunker and looking

:36:13.:36:19.

decidedly fed up with us Brits. -- Claude Junco.

:36:20.:36:27.

And with us for the next 30 minutes I've been

:36:28.:36:30.

joined by two newly elected MEPs - UKIP's Margot Parker and Clare Moody

:36:31.:36:33.

from Labour - as well as the leader of the Conservative MEPs in the

:36:34.:36:36.

Let me start with the Juncker problem, if I can call it that. The

:36:37.:36:52.

main political groups have said there will be an institutional

:36:53.:36:58.

crisis if Mr Juncker is not nominated as the European Commission

:36:59.:37:02.

president. It is clear there are a number of people who are concerned

:37:03.:37:06.

about Juncker. He is yesterday's man. Some people look at him as

:37:07.:37:12.

business as usual, the Sepp Blatter of European politics. I understand

:37:13.:37:17.

that but the main groupings on the left and the right have said there

:37:18.:37:20.

will be a crisis if he is not nominated. That is not true. What

:37:21.:37:26.

will happen is the groups will discuss it, Parliament will try and

:37:27.:37:30.

push for Juncker, because they want this process which is based on the

:37:31.:37:34.

loose interpretation of the Lisbon Treaty. There are heads of

:37:35.:37:39.

government to have said clearly that Juncker was with Merkel and others

:37:40.:37:43.

the other day and they have said they want a candidate for reform. It

:37:44.:37:48.

is what most people have voted for and it is clear that Juncker does

:37:49.:37:55.

not represent reform. But Angela Merkel is going for him. Can

:37:56.:38:00.

anything stop him? Who would you like? We do not really care. They

:38:01.:38:04.

are all the same. Who would you like? One thing we are clear about

:38:05.:38:11.

is we are waiting to see what the commission will propose in terms of

:38:12.:38:17.

the new president, the Council of ministers. It is the Council of

:38:18.:38:24.

ministers. We are not in support of Juncker. It is as appointing the

:38:25.:38:29.

Cameron has played this so badly in terms of Britain's influence. What

:38:30.:38:37.

way has he played it badly? Said publicly. The way he initiated it.

:38:38.:38:43.

The battle plan that was drawn and subsequently, it seems he has done

:38:44.:38:46.

everything to alienate his allies across Europe. If you do not want

:38:47.:38:52.

somebody, it hopes to have an alternative that other people do

:38:53.:38:57.

want. Who would you have? There are other candidates who are committed

:38:58.:39:01.

to reform. A number of candidates. There is Enda Kenny out there. He

:39:02.:39:09.

has indicated he does not want it. Maybe it is about time we had a

:39:10.:39:16.

female candidate. Who would that be? What is important is we are not

:39:17.:39:19.

squabbling about who it is, we want real reform on the ground. That is

:39:20.:39:24.

the most important thing. So who would your candidate be to deliver

:39:25.:39:30.

real reform? I want to see which other alternatives are proposed. So

:39:31.:39:36.

who? He is waiting to see who comes up. It is probably Mrs Gillick --

:39:37.:39:44.

Mrs Kinnock, isn't it? You mean the Danish Prime Minister. It is a nice

:39:45.:39:51.

job, well, not really, but it does not answer my question. Lets see

:39:52.:39:58.

what comes out of this process. You are the head of this conservative

:39:59.:40:01.

reformist group which is quite a big group now. We are the largest group.

:40:02.:40:08.

I will come onto some of your allies in a minute. But what are you

:40:09.:40:13.

advising the Minister? The Prime Minister is dealing with this at

:40:14.:40:17.

head of government level. This is an institutional stand-off between a

:40:18.:40:20.

misreading of the Lisbon Treaty where people in the Parliament

:40:21.:40:23.

consider that they should propose, whereas Cameron has been clear it

:40:24.:40:28.

should be heads of government who consider who it should be. You are

:40:29.:40:33.

no socialist group, is to supporting Mr Juncker? I am speaking on behalf

:40:34.:40:40.

of the Labour Party. But the group you are part of our supporting

:40:41.:40:48.

Juncker. It is not about the institutional setup. What is the

:40:49.:40:52.

political reason? He is an architect of what has been imposed across the

:40:53.:40:58.

European Union. His political background is very different from

:40:59.:41:01.

ours. What part did he play in austerity? Reader macro his role in

:41:02.:41:09.

the commission. We are absolutely wanting to see someone who would

:41:10.:41:13.

implement policies for jobs and growth. I cannot give you names and

:41:14.:41:20.

candidates because it is the Council of Ministers. But you are allowed to

:41:21.:41:25.

have a view. In deed! I do not have a name. You do not have a view, you

:41:26.:41:31.

do not have of view and you do not care? There all the same, they all

:41:32.:41:38.

dance around the same table. We want a candidate committed to reform. But

:41:39.:41:42.

you will not tell me who it is so we will move on.

:41:43.:41:46.

The European elections three weeks ago saw big gains for protest

:41:47.:41:48.

parties and fringe groups on both the political left and right.

:41:49.:41:51.

Partly a consequence of the deep - and for some countries -

:41:52.:41:54.

As a result, Brussels will look and feel very different

:41:55.:41:58.

as many new, younger faces try and influence how Europe is governed.

:41:59.:42:04.

Jo has been to Brussels to meet some of them,

:42:05.:42:06.

It seems getting elected as an MEP is just the beginning of the party

:42:07.:42:23.

struggles to form power bases in the European Parliament. Building

:42:24.:42:26.

political alliances with like-minded people is the key to winning votes.

:42:27.:42:31.

But it is a tricky business as this week's negotiations in Brussels have

:42:32.:42:36.

shown. Many of the winners in these elections were from new protest

:42:37.:42:43.

parties, challenging the status quo. One of them, the German anti-Europe

:42:44.:42:48.

party, opponents of Miss Merkel, are clear who they want to sit with. We

:42:49.:42:52.

want to sit with people who think alike like the British

:42:53.:42:57.

Conservatives. In our own party programme for the European

:42:58.:43:01.

elections, we have made references to David Cameron's programme. There

:43:02.:43:07.

are a lot of similarities. Yesterday, there was good news for

:43:08.:43:11.

this party. Deals are being done all the time here in the European

:43:12.:43:15.

Parliament. In this meeting room behind me, the European

:43:16.:43:18.

Conservatives and reformist group, of which David Cameron's

:43:19.:43:23.

Conservatives are part, have decided formally to admit a new group of

:43:24.:43:30.

German MEPs. But making new political acquaintances risks

:43:31.:43:32.

alienating more important friends. The reason why David Cameron warned

:43:33.:43:39.

his own MEPs to vote against admitting the German Chancellor's

:43:40.:43:42.

arch rivals into their ranks because Angela would be furious. It was not

:43:43.:43:48.

enough, the new chair of the group, Tory MEP Syed Kamall put on a brave

:43:49.:43:54.

face. David Cameron has made his these absolutely clear about the

:43:55.:43:59.

AFD. He asked me to pass that view on. Now was not the time to look

:44:00.:44:04.

back, it is time to look forward. Questions were also asked about why

:44:05.:44:07.

the Conservatives are sitting with the Danish People's party and the

:44:08.:44:12.

True Finns, whose views on immigration and Islam are

:44:13.:44:16.

unacceptable, according to Labour. Nigel Farage was on an offensive

:44:17.:44:24.

with the Italian media. He needs an Italian party on board to form a

:44:25.:44:29.

parliamentary group. Without it, there will no access to funding and

:44:30.:44:35.

committee posts. Nigel Farage is the one who has been flirting with us

:44:36.:44:40.

more than others. How has he been flirting with you? Not with me

:44:41.:44:45.

personally, but with my party. He has been talking to us. He probably

:44:46.:44:51.

sees a different vision of Europe. Last night, they were celebrating

:44:52.:44:58.

after an online referendum of 5-star Movement's supporters found a

:44:59.:45:01.

majority favoured an alliance with Europe. Federalism versus euro

:45:02.:45:05.

scepticism is not the only fault line. Pro-and anti-austerity parties

:45:06.:45:14.

are also set to do battle. A new Greek far left party came first in

:45:15.:45:17.

the elections and wants an end to the austerity measures of the past

:45:18.:45:21.

few years. It is a catastrophe for the whole of Europe. It is

:45:22.:45:27.

increasing explosion of inequalities and if it doesn't work, it creates a

:45:28.:45:32.

lot of pain. The other goal is to stop the rise of far right parties

:45:33.:45:37.

like the Front nationality. The party came first in the poll in

:45:38.:45:42.

France but has not yet found enough partners for its new European

:45:43.:45:45.

Alliance for freedom group. Sources say they are still one country

:45:46.:45:46.

short. You had some good news some good

:45:47.:46:07.

news last night. You need seven countries. How far short you? I

:46:08.:46:12.

cannot answer that. They are all negotiating. We are working at it.

:46:13.:46:22.

We are not going to the beach. What other possible candidates would you

:46:23.:46:28.

like to see? What are your targets? Our targets really are the

:46:29.:46:30.

negotiations are completely wide open at the moment. I cannot give

:46:31.:46:35.

you those. You cannot give me one political party you may be looking

:46:36.:46:41.

at. Do you still rule out the French National Front? They are really

:46:42.:46:45.

unfortunate. They have very far right views. They do not sit well

:46:46.:46:50.

with UKIP. We do not and will not sit with them. If you get a

:46:51.:46:54.

grouping, what benefit will you get from that? Will you get more money?

:46:55.:47:01.

We have the ability to have more staff. We have more research, more

:47:02.:47:06.

publications, more airtime. You can get your message out much more

:47:07.:47:12.

easily. When I saw Nigel Farage in Brussels earlier this week he said

:47:13.:47:15.

the Conservatives are really gaining up to stop this. They would try to

:47:16.:47:21.

pick off as many as they could. That is what they do, it is what we

:47:22.:47:23.

expect. It is what happens. It is what they do, it is what we

:47:24.:47:29.

politics. We want to impart on the largest growing group. We are the

:47:30.:47:38.

third largest group. You have admitted the German AFD, which is a

:47:39.:47:44.

rather moderate Eurosceptic group in Germany. The Conservative leadership

:47:45.:47:50.

in London told you not to. David Cameron setup the group. It is now

:47:51.:47:57.

the growing group. He did not want AFD. He asked me as leader of the

:47:58.:48:02.

Conservatives to request MEPs not to vote for them. Because we are the

:48:03.:48:08.

fastest-growing group, we are 19 out of 63 MEPs from 13 countries. We do

:48:09.:48:16.

not have the majority. Some of the new MEPs voted for AFD. We do not

:48:17.:48:22.

know that. It was a majority of one. Do you regret you voted to have AFD

:48:23.:48:28.

joined a group? I am the leader of the group and I have to look

:48:29.:48:31.

forward. We must make sure we must make sure we're looking forward to

:48:32.:48:33.

the future and we are committed to reform. AFD have said they are

:48:34.:48:37.

committed to reform. Within the European Parliament, we are going to

:48:38.:48:41.

be the only group committed to reform in the European group. We are

:48:42.:48:48.

going to be at the forefront. Let's have a look at who is part of this

:48:49.:48:54.

consensus. Let's look at the Danish People's party. I you happy with

:48:55.:49:03.

them? A spokesman once like all -- likened the Muslim headscarf to the

:49:04.:49:10.

swastika. I had a conversation with them and asked them about the

:49:11.:49:13.

allegations. They said they had moved on and would move towards the

:49:14.:49:16.

future for a mainstream party. Let's face it. These very same people you

:49:17.:49:21.

through accusations that are the same people who voted for me. Look

:49:22.:49:26.

at me, Andrew! The first Muslim leader of any digital group in the

:49:27.:49:36.

Muslim Parliament. How can you tell me which people voted for you? I

:49:37.:49:40.

know the results of the ballot. It is quite clear who voted for me.

:49:41.:49:49.

Morton is the leader of the party. He was actually convicted for

:49:50.:49:53.

publishing material of a link between a multiethnic society and

:49:54.:49:56.

rape, violence and forced marriages. I sat down with him and had a

:49:57.:50:01.

conversation. He said, I was young, foolish, I have moved on. I want to

:50:02.:50:08.

grow up. Are you happy to have these people as friends? As a party

:50:09.:50:13.

committed to reform and committed to building a new Europe for 2015, not

:50:14.:50:19.

looking back to the 1950s, it is exciting we can help people move

:50:20.:50:24.

into the mainstream of policy. -- politics. It is claimed that is lamp

:50:25.:50:38.

reveres paedophilia. It is not claimed that. -- Islam. I read the

:50:39.:50:48.

blog and the blog said quite clearly, it was a freedom of speech

:50:49.:50:56.

issue. They did not like being in the centre-right group because they

:50:57.:51:03.

thought it was fabulous. -- Federalist. Why don't you, that

:51:04.:51:09.

group? Sky we think it is important to have influence at European Union

:51:10.:51:16.

level. -- we think. We are now the only UK party with a part of the

:51:17.:51:25.

mainstream politics -- which is part of mainstream politics in the

:51:26.:51:29.

European Union. We are after getting reform, bringing about the gross

:51:30.:51:35.

Commissioner. It is about getting investment kick started properly.

:51:36.:51:41.

Unless you believe in federalism, which I don't think you do, as he

:51:42.:51:45.

probably would not be allowed to by Mr Miller band at the moment, you

:51:46.:51:49.

will belong to a group you do not actually agree with. There are more

:51:50.:51:56.

things we do agree with our colleagues across the European Union

:51:57.:52:03.

than things we disagree with. This issue of federalism would be

:52:04.:52:05.

something that is determined at the council of ministers, determined

:52:06.:52:09.

across 28 countries. I do not believe across those 28 countries

:52:10.:52:16.

there is an appetite to suddenly federalise, roller head to

:52:17.:52:21.

federalism. That is the policy of Mr shorts and he is your leader.

:52:22.:52:34.

Absolutely. -- Schulz. Which you have voted for him? We remained

:52:35.:52:44.

neutral. It is an awful beauty parade. You're talking about

:52:45.:52:51.

influence. We do not have any. You ask officially in the same pool for

:52:52.:52:59.

candidates. -- you are fishing in the same pool for candidates. I

:53:00.:53:03.

reject it. Unlike the Danish People's party. They are on a

:53:04.:53:14.

political journey and they are committed to reform. I am glad you

:53:15.:53:18.

are excited. I hope you will be one day.

:53:19.:53:30.

You probably know what the flag of the EU looks like - 12 yellow

:53:31.:53:34.

But did you know the European Union also has its own official anthem?

:53:35.:53:38.

Or that there's a special EU Day every May?

:53:39.:53:40.

Here's Adam with the latest of our A to Z guides to Europe.

:53:41.:53:53.

The gift shop at the European Parliament. Proof you can put the EU

:53:54.:54:05.

flag on just about anything. It is a serious business for this man, he is

:54:06.:54:09.

head of protocol in Parliament. That means flax. We have two kinds of

:54:10.:54:24.

flags. For the member states, we have better quality ones. They are

:54:25.:54:31.

made of silk. The common flag is in polyester. That is a less noble

:54:32.:54:39.

material. The rules say the European flag should be flown in every

:54:40.:54:43.

meeting room and at every event and flowing correctly. It has a sense in

:54:44.:54:50.

the way that the styles are always looking, the hat right up and the

:54:51.:54:57.

feet, two feet open. Imagine it looked like this or this. These are

:54:58.:55:01.

some of the rejects from the competition to design the flag held

:55:02.:55:07.

in the 50s. It was originally the council of Europe, which oversees

:55:08.:55:14.

the Court of Human Rights. In 1985 a bit of global branding was required.

:55:15.:55:19.

In the present world, it is important. As national states, we

:55:20.:55:26.

are really too small compared with these big countries like India or

:55:27.:55:35.

China or let's say Brazil. It is instantly recognisable but you can

:55:36.:55:41.

hum it. Unlike the EU official anthem, Owed To Joy by Beethoven. He

:55:42.:56:00.

revealed all about it. It is the scale and the harmony. It is very

:56:01.:56:04.

simple. More simple you cannot. Beethoven was a genius because of

:56:05.:56:09.

that. A simplicity founded music of all cultures and all ages. It is

:56:10.:56:17.

completely universal. More universal, more federal, more

:56:18.:56:23.

European. More for everybody cannot find. Who knows the other emblems?

:56:24.:56:28.

United in diversity of Europe 's official day, maybe ninth, if you

:56:29.:56:32.

have your Euro branded calendar to hand. Then there is the symbol for

:56:33.:56:40.

the Euro which is chosen because it looks like the Greek letter,

:56:41.:56:46.

Epsilon. The two lines in the middle are meant to represent stability and

:56:47.:56:47.

reliability. How is that going? Adam Fleming reporting. Does Europe

:56:48.:57:08.

need its own anthem? Absolutely not. We are 28 member states. I do not

:57:09.:57:15.

really need to ask you that. I will bring my own Union Jack and carry it

:57:16.:57:19.

at all times. By Maggie do you have it on you? -- do you have it on you?

:57:20.:57:32.

It is a beautiful piece of music. Beethoven. You are happy with the

:57:33.:57:39.

national anthem? Not the national anthem, the European... What did you

:57:40.:57:46.

do to celebrate the day? It was made a seventh, the run-up to the

:57:47.:57:50.

European elections. I was undoubtedly on doorsteps. I was

:57:51.:57:57.

knocking on doors, campaigning for further European form. You must have

:57:58.:58:03.

celebrated EU day. I knocked on doors and lots of people told me all

:58:04.:58:08.

the ills of the EU. I separated by telling what people told me. I was

:58:09.:58:12.

delighted they would vote for us. David Cameron talked about British

:58:13.:58:16.

values, Angela Merkel talked about the European spirit. What is the

:58:17.:58:22.

difference? Weird gree with an outward looking -- we agree with an

:58:23.:58:28.

outward looking Europe. By tabloid talk about British values against

:58:29.:58:35.

European spirit. -- we talk about. We believe in freedom and tolerance.

:58:36.:58:41.

The Europeans do not? They aren't against a one size fits all Europe.

:58:42.:58:49.

-- they are against. Stop arguing. Next to my guests. Goodbye. --

:58:50.:58:55.

thanks to my guests. MUSIC: "The Yeah Yeah Yeah Song"

:58:56.:59:05.

by the Flaming Lips # Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah

:59:06.:59:05.

Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah MUSIC: "The Yeah Yeah Yeah Song"

:59:06.:59:06.

by the Flaming Lips # Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah

:59:07.:59:12.

Yeah-yeah-yeah-yeah

:59:13.:59:18.

Andrew Neil with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew discusses the situation in Iraq with Tony Blair's former envoy Ann Clwyd and takes a look at what's been going on in the European Parliament.


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