20/06/2014 Daily Politics

Fierce battles are under way in parts of Iraq as Islamist

militants and government forces fight for control

We'll discuss the latest developments

and the threat posed by these jihadists back here in Britain.

Iain Duncan Smith comes under fire over his welfare reforms, as

Which county has adopted a flag with three black pears as its standard?

And why are people across England going crazy for celebrating

We'll talk to the country's leading vexillologist and a town crier.

And we'll profile this 17th century philosopher in the latest of our

series on Britain's favourite political thinkers.

It's surprising, really, that this most conservative philosophers

should promote ideas that were radical and would have such a

revolutionary impact. And with us for the duration two

newspaper columnists - Peter Oborne of the Daily Telegraph,

and Jackie Ashley of the Guardian. Now, there's a glut of stories this

morning about various aspects of To take us through them all,

let's talk to our political It's like alphabet soup. PIP, USA,

the PAC. Let's start with Margaret Hodge's Public Accounts Committee?

Behind those acronyms there are a few pretty important stories. You

need to get through the thick et to get to them. Personal independence

payments, money to help people suffering from a long-term

disability. There was a report by the National Audit Office, the

official number crunchers, in February, that found all sorts of

fundamental issues. The Government not realising ing how many

assessments would have to be done. How serious they would be and how

long they would take. Margaret Hodge, the chair of the Public

Accounts Committee, a woman who cuts through these things defendant lane

strongly has given her -- defendantly and strongly has given

her characteristic robust response. It has been a shambolic fiasco.

People have had to wait for far too long to be assessed. Remember we are

talking about vulnerable people, disabled people who need extra money

to live in their home. They will have been through a life-changing,

or experiencing a life-changing condition, for example, they may

have had a stroke, they've got cancer. They may have had a motor

cycle accident and they need this benefit to live. And the Government

says all that assessment is based on old figures, old numbers, they say

they are on time and on budge wet that plan. Speak being on budge

eted. The Government's limit on welfare spending, recently unveiled.

There is a story about that might be breached because of spending on ESA.

Tell us about that? The employment and support allowance. It is not new

T replaced income support in 2008 T appears there are problems.

Documents leaked to the BBC show civil servants scratching their

heads and saying - this is costing a lot of money, what do we do about

it? And coming to the conclusion that they weren't awfully sure. One

of the documents suggest this is one of the largest fiscal risks

currently facing the Government and they also suggest the risk is so

great it could breach the Government's welfare cap. The cap on

the amount of money it spent on most, not all of welfare for

2015/16. The people at the Department for Work and Pensions say

these are spurious scone oar yes, sir and they say they are very sure

they will not be in a position where they breach that cap.

sir and they say they are very sure they will not be However much some

of their civil servants appear to have worried about it. And finally

the big idea of the Government's welfare reform, to roll up a number

of the major benefits into Universal Credit. You get a single payment

instead of a raft of payments, it is Iain Duncan Smith's big plan, it has

had a lot of critics on the implications and the application of

it. Where are we with that? That's thushl. Critics about the way it is

being done. -- this is' crucial. It is not necessarily about it

happening at all. It has had pretty much cross-party support but the

application has note gone smoothly. There are only ten job centres at

the moment where you can get this. Something like 6,500 people are

getting Universal Credit. They hoped it might be 1 million originally by

now. As of Monday there will be an extra four job centres to add to

those ten. They hope by the end of the year, another 86 in the

north-west of England. You shove all these things together and Labour see

a department on the point of crisis. They say - look, this tells you all

you need to know about how this place is being run by Iain Duncan

Smith and those working for him. Inside the DWP they argue and they

argue pretty forcibly it has to be said - you simply cannot say that.

They have put in place complex stuff, also inrollment on pensions,

a new jobs website. A contract they also say for people taking up

employment and they argue they can deliver things and where things have

had problems in the past they are sorting it out. The big issue with

all of this, we are not just talking about theory and politics and who is

up and who is down, when this goes wrong, people suffer, July they

shall people don't get money, that's why it is so high profile and why it

matters and the figures on the national books are huge. It is

difficult stuff this. You have got to get it right. Thank you very

much. I think you may need to go and lie in a dark room to recover after

that. The interesting thing about this, is

as a general principle the Government's welfare reforms are

popular. Even Labour seems this week to be running to try to catch up.

But the devil is in the detail. A lot of that seems to be going wrong.

I think the problem is they have had a long time to prepare for this. It

has been Iain Duncan Smith's baby for many years now, this whole idea

of reforming welfare. But they have not piloted the properly. The idea

was to pilot it in lots of areas first and then roll it out. They

have not taken into account that by doing more individual assessments,

the basis behind t to get rid of what they call the scroungers, it is

taking time. It is taking time for people to do that and getting the

appointments done. No-one has looked into the mechanics of how it would

operate which is why it seems to be falling to pieces. Is the welfare

reform project still on the rails, or is it in danger of falling off

the rails? It is definitely on the rails. I think it is worth just

looking back a bit and thinking why it had to be done. Basically the

beverage bell fair state was in collapse. In an act, I think --

Beverage Welfare state was in collapse. I think Gordon Brown used

the to create a basis for Labour voters. In other words the welfare

state paid you to be remain unemployment and have no hope in

your life. If you went on to get a job, financially it became an

impossible thing to do. Mr Brown did that? That was Mr Brown did, that it

was evil. As Chancellor, what he did was abuse this great noble yfted

welfare state, to help people if they lose jobs, if -- great noble

idea of the welfare state. To help people if they lose jobs and are

suffering abject property and made it a lifestyle. We saw it in

Benefits Street that successful programme. People who were supported

by the state to be out of a job. You think that Gordon Brown did this

deliberately? I think it was something Labour boasted about. It

created a system that was so complex that you couldn't get off the dole.

It is an incredibly brave and wonder ful thing which Iain Duncan Smith is

doing and trying to do. Now, what these reports have shown and we have

had it with the Universal Credit, is it has been very, very difficult to

change the basis. I think the signs are that they are certainly trying

still to push it through. Thank you. I'd better let Jackie reply. I can't

quite believe I heard people say that Gordon Brown deliberately

wanted people to sit at home. I thought he was a big believer in

that Scottish Presbyterian work ethic? And he need ed to balance the

books. It wasn't good for the question. It was disastrous.

It became too complicated and too many benefits and some people taking

advantage and Iain Duncan Smith has struck a chord when he says it is

wrong for whole families to be on benefits for years and years. The

human stories that the Public Accounts Committee uncovered during

their inquiry is really shocking and it shouldn't be allowed to happen

this quickly, leaving people with months and months with no benefits.

I can't prove he deliberately did it in that way but that was the effect

of the Brown system, to create a base of people dependent on the

state. I remember the Thatcher Government taking people off

unemployment benefit and putting them on disability benefit because

it was open-ended. Which is why you have the employment and support

allowance problem. Anyway, the debate continues but for us. Time

for the daily quiz: According to the Secretary General

of NATO, with which British pressure group is Vladimir Putin said to be

plotting against? A) Anti-fracking campaigners,

b) The Cat Protection League, c) Fathers 4 Justice, or d)

The Automobile Association? At the end of the show Jackie

and Peter will give us In Iraq the fighting between

the Islamist-led militants ISIS and pro-government forces is continuing.

Fierce battles are being fought at Baiji, the country's biggest oil

refinery and Tal Afar airport in northern Iraq, which

the rebels claim to have seized. The United States,

the only Western power with any real ability to intervene,

doesn't seem to have the appetite. President Obama is reluctant to get

involved and that reflects US opinion.

But he said yesterday he'd send 300 military advisers to help the Iraqi

government. We have had advisors in Iraq through

our embassy and we are prepared to send a small number of

our embassy and we are prepared to send a small number additional

American military advisors, up to 300, to assess how we can best

train, advice and support 300, to assess how we can best

train, advice Iraqi security forces going forward. American forces will

not be returning to combat in Iraq. But we will help Iraqis as they take

the fight to terrorists who threaten the Iraqi people in the region and

American interests as well. Tlr concerns over the danger of

blowback into their own countries. Earlier this week David Cameron said

"It was the most serious concern to British security." Pointing to

British jihadists returning to Britain.

Is David Cameron right? Are Jihadis returning from eastern, western

Iraq, the biggest threat to the UK from terror? They are one of the

biggest threats. They have warned Western

from terror? They are one of the biggest threats. They have countries

of the fact they intend to return to attack here. They have thousands of

fighters, foreign fighters, who have come from different countries to

join them in Syria and Iraq and relatively unnoticed we've had a

successful attack on European soil. It happened to be a French jihadist

who attacked the Jewish museum in Belgium. He was a returning fighter

from Syria. Though it has gone relatively unnoticed, that precedent

has been set. We have arrests in Britain where people have attempted

to attack after returning from Syria. We have had fluent

English-speaking fighters warn Canada and America that they'll

return to their countries of origin and attack and it is worrying

because at this moment in time we have more foreign and European

fighters in Syria than ever went to Afghanistan. We have all heard of

the Afghan blowback and I think we are woefully unprepared for the

Syria blowback. Our own Frankrd Gardener, the BBC's security

correspondent that estimates are 2,000 have gone from Europe, of

which between 400 and 450 have come from this country. I suppose the

danger is, that it is quite clear that they are being well-trained,

that they will be or are already battle-hardened, that they are

extreme. We know that ISIS is extreme. So, they are, if they come

back, the potential for them to be dangerous people, when they come

back I would have thought is very high. A no-brainer. When you say,

treem, let's put in context how extreme. This is a group that's too

extreme for Al-Qaeda, Al-Qaeda has expelled ISIS from its Chan fra be

chies. They believe them to be too unruly and uncontrollable. That's

what we are dealing W there are roughly 400 British born and raised

citizens who have gone there. They are joining a group too extreme for

Al-Qaeda. There is no turning back. ISIS after the conquest of Mosul and

other cities amounting to one-third of Iraq, has set a new global

standard for global jihadists. Al-Qaeda is yesterday's news. People

coming to join them, are joining ISIS. It is the new zeitgeist. It is

very worrying, they are literally unhinged as a nation. Speaking of

the British nationals, do we know who they are and why they have gone?

The security forces have a these early saying security services who

seem to have no idea that ISIS was about to take the second biggest

city in Iraq and huge chunks of the desert. If they didn't know that,

why would we have confidence that they know who these people are? It

is sad, it is unfortunate that last year I warned on the BBC of foreign

fighters for a film we made with this week. People reacted by saying

it was sensationalist, it was not going to happen. A couple of weeks

before ISIS took most of all, we were warned they would go into Iraq.

-- moulds all. We seem to have a pendulum approach to these sorts of

issues. We did not like what happened with the original invasion

of Iraq. We have taken a back foot. These people, when they returned to

Britain, or they may go to Turkey, Pakistan... Are we in any position

to know that when they land at Heathrow Airport or at Dover, that

we know who they are and where they have been? No. It is complicated by

the fact that some people have gone for a genuinely charitable and

medical purposes. The real concern is that there are up to 400 who have

gone to fight. It is very difficult to fill in. You can take a holiday

in Turkey and walk through the porous border. It is difficult to

avoid the little's incentives are in fact it. If this is a long-term stop

there is no short-term fix. Until now, there is no "too challenging

extremism in this country. Given that the security services don't

know what is going on, how do you have for the fourth of humour I say

that. There are organisations are actively monitoring and verify

individual voices from the cases they have been interviewed. There

are hundreds of fighters from you. Would review the side, I don't think

there is any doubt that there are some, sometimes these figures are

thrown out as they gain currency. You're never sure what the

provinces. But assuming this is a problem, what do we do about them?

We have first of all to acknowledge that we created a lot of the

problem. The last three years Britain has been enabling and

helping this lot in Syria. It has been part of the British policy to

bring them on our side. We have been very careless about the people we

have entered alliances with. The ISIS fighters, from the Baathist

army. They come from the groups we have created in order to get out of

Iraq cleanly. They come party from these jihadist groups who worked

alongside our allies in Qatar. In what way has Britain helped ISIS? It

was our policy to bring down Assad. We did not have the will or microbes

are perhaps not the ability to intervene directly to get rid of

Assad. So we allowed the Saudis and the Qataris to fund these terror

groups. How could we stop the -- how could we stop them? They are our

allies. The use of the jihad e-groups, they were on our side. We

wanted Assad out. We must acknowledge that is part of the

legacy of our Syrian rhetoric. I understand all that but you have not

explained how we have directly helped ISIS. I did not say that. All

of that is water under the bridge. The issue is what is to be done now.

We think there are a number of these people. They are British national.

If they are nationalised British citizens, we have the power to stop

them. If they are British nationals, born here, there is not a lot we can

do. The intelligence services, someone said to me in a previous

programme, the intelligence services would have to monitor them. I think

part of the problem is that ever since the weapons of mass

destruction weren't there, there is a great sense of not believing the

security services know when they say there are all of these people. I'm

sure this is part of the problem you are finding. People say nothing is

happening. We have really got to get the public onside and say, this is a

thread. -- threat. All of that is fine. It doesn't address the major

problem is that if these people, when they come back to this country,

as many of them will do, and they present their passports to border

control, and if we are lucky enough to know that they have been part of

ISIS, part of beheading squads, part of rounding up people and killing

them, shooting them in the back, what do we do? There is very little

in the short term. We don't know who is gone in the first place. There is

very little in the short term we can do. We must start counter messaging

online. ISIS have an app. They have a smartphone. They are so far ahead.

We are so far behind. We are so far behind in terms of grassroots and

communities in this country. 400 fighters roughly do not just get up

and risk their lives without coming from a certain atmosphere that

generates the sympathy for that cause. Yet the communities in local

government department, four years too late, is yet to publish its

non--- is extremist strategy. That may help deal with the problem in

the future. Where we seem to have no policy response at all is in how we

deal with those that have already gone. Some of them are in prison.

The national vendor 's management service does not have a

comprehensive the radicalisation plan for prisons. Jihadist groups

are openly recruiting in prisons. And there is no strategy in place to

start the counter messaging and presence. There are 3% of this

country who are Muslims yet 20% are in the prison population. They are

vulnerable to radicalisation and predisposed to violent environments.

We have two take out finger out and challenge extremism. Sadly, we are

dithering on this subject and we have been for too long. Is their any

good news?! ISIS appears to want to control a state. It needs oil

fields. That means boarders at the end of the day. That means it has

certain conventional... Al-Qaeda had no designs. It was not based

anywhere. That suggests to me there is a possibility that eventually

they will settle down and become an area of land which you can negotiate

with. I don't know. That is a bit of a silver

with. I don't know. That is a bit lining there!

Now if you're an avid follower of the Daily Politics,

you'll know about our long-running series which showcases some of the

We've discussed Karl Marx, Niccolo Machiavelli, Friedrich Hayek, Peter

You can see all of the films in the series on our website.

Today we're looking at the 17th century English

These video is not running. I will now give a lecture on John Locke. --

the video. I did political philosophy at University. He was

quite a good writer. He liked the odd cup of tea in the morning.

And Lisa Nandy joins us now from our studios in Salford.

You have no idea how happy I am to see you! Hi, Andrew! I will take

that as a compliment. You are a champion for John Locke. Tell us

why. Quite simply because he had such an astonishing impact not just

here in Britain but on the rest of the world as well. He had this huge

inside the Government 's don't get their power handed to them by God.

They get their power from the people and rule only by the well and

consent of the people. That gave us the basis of Parliamentary democracy

and sparked off revolutions in France, America and you can see John

Locke basically written into every line of the American Constitution

still today. Can we count him among those philosophers both in this

country and in continental Europe, that began laying down the

philosophical case for governments to be held accountable by the

people? Absolutely. He went further than that. He said governments have

two rule in the interests of the people that put them there. And if

they don't do that, they can be removed. Although John Locke was

actually quite an establishment figure, he certainly was not a

radical or revolutionary. He went on -- it was that that provided the

underpinning for the American and French revolutions. He made a huge

impact around the world. If you think now as well that there are

still people fighting for the right to be recognised as the people are

power should reside, with limits on executives and their ability to rule

over them. These things are really important. I have got more questions

to ask you. I am delighted to say, we have put a shilling in the meter

and there is just a chance your film will run. Let me hold my breath and

see what happens. John Locke life. He joined in safe

in the and here in the library I have in front of me letters that

John Locke wrote back to the Royal Society. One from Montpelier.

Observations of the moon. Here, in Paris, a letter written on

observations of a medical quirk. Here, a constitution, a part of

colonial America. Things like this became the foundation for the

American Constitution. This is a man with varied interests and

interesting things to say. Today we would call him a polymath. I am off

to meet a Labour MP who thinks his philosophy of politics is what makes

him relevant. Let's start at the very beginning. Lisa, we have come

to a nursery, which may seem odd but it is one of John Locke's big theory

is that we were all born a blank slate and accumulate knowledge. What

excited you about John Locke? That theory made a huge splash at the

time. What excited me was the theory of a quality he puts forward. We are

surrounded by children, all of them with different characteristics. What

John Locke argued was that for the purposes of political representation

none of those differences matter. We are all equal. When I first picked

up these books at university and found this radical idea in what is

really quite an established and -- establishment figure, I thought he

was worth reading. Those radical ideas get him into trouble with the

establishment. I want to take you to the scene of what may or may have

been -- may not have been a plot. Let's go. Lisa, this is right house.

It is just a gatehouse now. In 1683, John Locke is implicated in a plot

to kill Charles II, who was king, and his brother James, who will

become king. John Locke asked to flee Netherlands. He does not come

back to Britain. -- John Locke asked to flee to the Netherlands. William

of Orange is installed on this wrong. It seems he is adapting to

those people in power because they seem to believe what he believes? I

think you are looking at this the wrong way round. He was riding for

those people in power. People who had the ability to change things. At

times this makes his philosophy seem inconsistent, perhaps a little bit

incoherent. The really exciting thing about John Locke is that he

was a doer as well as a thinker. He lived through these tremendous

times, the battle for power between King and Parliament. His argument

about the limits of power changed what was to happen next. Doctor

Elizabeth Fraser of Oxford University is clear that not only

does John Locke affect what happens next year, but abroad, too, by

making a simple argument. He's the great theorist of anti-patriarch

it. He set out to argue that patriarchal list theory, which was

very common in the 17th century, the idea that political power is the

power of the father over his son, it is the power of the husband over his

wife, that is what the King's power is, he set out to show that that is

false. This is where John Locke worshipped

for the last 13 years of his life. He is buried in the churchyard.

Church is quite important to one of his principal philosophies, the

separation of power between church and government? Locke was concerned

with the limits of Government power. Instead of seeing the monarchy what

happeneded down divine right from God. He seen it as the power of the

people. This of paved the way for the American War of Independence and

the French revolution. If you look at the American constitution, you

can see Locke written into every line of that document. It's

surprising, really, that this most conservative of philosophers should

end up pushing forwards ideas that were tremendously radical and have

such a revolutionary impact. Speaking about the church, he is

very interested in religion, isn't he? He writes this profound defence

of religion toleration. He might have been doing that for political

reasons, but the impact was to launch the first sustained campaign

for religion freedom from inside the Church of England. Let's see if we

can find his grave, in the churchyard.

I think, if I'm right, yes, there he is. There we go. The plaque here was

actually put together by the American and British Commonwealth

association. So, clearly, they understand the importance that he

has in the American political system but what relevance does John Locke

have to us today? I think he is hugely relevant. His defence of

toleration set up broad principles which mattered with the far right

sweeping Europe. But there is something more than that, that I

think he will be remembered for. He set out the foundation of Western

democracy, this idea that Government only derives its legitimacy from the

will of the people and with trust in politicians at an all-time low and

people dissatisfied with politics as a whole, we could do so much worse

than to revisit the writings of a man from the 17th century to find

answers to some of the really challenging problems that we face

today. Now back to Lisa Nandy who was on

the film, in Salford now. There were Coentra digses to what he wrote. You

say he wanted religion toleration, but not for atheists. Yes. But

interestingly, though, on the other side he was way ahead of his time in

that he disliked the power of man over women, at a time when even

progressive philosophers were largely writing about men? Yes,

there were lots of contradictions in his writing. I think that was

largely because he was writing for political purposes. He wrote about

the way of stopping a Catholic from descending the throne and he wrote

about religion toleration to prevent Catholicism taking over, as as he

saw T whether what he did was by design or accident what he did

provoked the freedom of thought. Not just religious thought but this idea

that the Government and churches don't have any right toll tell us

what we believe and violence isn't ineffective it is also illegitimate

that. Defence has lasted for much longer and can be easily extended to

things like women's rights, for example, for to atheists' rights to

believe what they may believe. Locke might have been horrified that that

would have been where his argument ended up being used but envelopes it

makes him an important figure. OK, thank you for that.

Jackie, I suspect he might also have been surprised that once we got

government that is were accountable to the people, how disillusioned we

became with them. A more verious defence of Locke, I'm not sure I

would describe him as the first great feminist thinker which seemed

to be coming out of Lisa's analysis He Weualities put our values out of

other generations. For me, not enough social justice in his

philosophy. A great man. Jackie has put her finger on T it is marvellous

to see that the Labour Party is coming to appreciate John Locke the

great defender of property. He was also - and fabulous to see some

Oxford don making out he is the project of feminism. He was a

radical philosopher at the time but he became - he is now a very

conservative philosopher because his ideas were embodied in the American

state. And he's - and we should celebrate him as Conservatives and

it is wonderful that Labour... celebrate him as Conservatives and

it is wonderful Didn't he have a wonderful nose didn't you think? It

was quite a hooter. I wouldn't disagree with this point about

feminism. I don't think you can make a strong case for Locke as a

feminist at all. I think the point about property is

feminist at all. I think the point about quite interesting because one

of the things that Locke argues is that we only derive our ownership of

property because we expend our energy in creating something with T

he has this huge section of his philosophy where he talks about

tilling the land and mixing your labour with the land and that is

where you derive your ownership from the fruits of that labour from.

That, was an idea that was to become pretr he men duesly significant

later on when it was taken up by Karl Marx. It is right to say he is

a Conservative philosopher but he has had an impact in many, many way

that is he would never have anticipated. All right. Lisa Nandy

thank you very much. Good to talk to you. Thanks. As I say, you can see

all of our pen portraits of philosophers over the centuries gone

by on our websites. Are there any women among them? I'm not sure. Oh,

dear. Mary Wilson, perhaps. She'll do. Phew! This was meant to

be an easy segment of the problem. # neck -- of the programme.

It was a hard fought competition, and despite a valiant effort it's

But I'm not talking about some soccer tournament in

South America, I'm talking about the Europe's next Commission President.

I know you've been talking about nothing else.

David Cameron will have one final chance to stop the coronation

of Luxembourger Jean-Claude Junker at next week's EU summit -

As well as being in charge of the money, the Commission initiates

all EU legislation, acts as a guardian of the EU treaties and it

Whilst European leaders propose who becomes the President,

they now have to make the choice taking into account the elections to

The European People's Party won that election and proposed Mr Junker

as its candidate, a man who David Cameron described

Just to make it even harder, Britain doesn't have a veto

The decision is made by qualified majority and the

Prime Minister needs support from countries representing 38% of the

Whilst a number of leaders have privately expressed reservations,

Just like the England football team, there is still a slim chance

of success and it rests on the Italians.

Italy's Prime Minister Metteo Renzi could be an unlikely ally.

Mr Renzi is said to be unhappy at Juncker's austerity plans and may

this week. the Presidency was clear in PMQs

It is a simple principle, much more connected to the principle than the

name. It is this, I think it will 's be shared on every side of the

House. The members of the European Council who are the elected Prime

Ministers and elected presidents under the treaties, we should choose

who runs the European Commission. I don't mind how many people on the

European Council disagree with me, I will fight this right to the very

end. And what I would say - what I would say to my colleagues on the

European Council, many of whom have expressed interesting views about

both this principle and this person, "If you want reform in Europe, you

have to stand up for it." If you want change, you have to vote for

it. That's the message I will take and that is is the right message for

our country. joined by Stephen Booth, research

director at the think-tank Open Is it a done deal, will Mr Juncker

get the job? He is the favourite. The irony is what has been held up

is the great hope for pan-European democracy has descended in horse

trading and backroom deals we have seen in the past. As you mentioned

earlier, it sli still a swing voter and there is still a degree of

unpredictability there. If there are others, other than Mr Cameron who

don't like the prospect of Mr Juncker, why don't they speak out,

too? Lots of things going on. Cameron has made it a point of

principle, about the national leadership of the Commission

President, not the European Parliament. People like Matteo Renzi

in Italy is fighting a different battle, he is concerned about get

concessions from germ on on how the eurozone is run. People may end up

on the same side but for different reasons. President of the European

Parliament think it is should be Mr Juncker and even if it is agreed

that they were not going to do that by the European Council, there could

be a stalemate because if they nominate somebody else, he or she

still has to be approved by the European Parliament? That's right.

The European Parliament has a veto over the apartment in the end. You

could end up having two or three rounds of this process where

national leaders put someone forward and it is either accepted or

rejected by MEPs. You are quite keen for Mr Juncker to get the job, I

understand, but perhaps not for the same reasons as Mr Juncker? No, no,

I think speaking as a yurpted, a Conservative eurosceptic, those who

don't wish Europe particularly well, want it to bring itself into

disrepute. And some sort of clueless, sort of ex-premier of

Luxembourg, that sort of world centre of tax-dodging and

corruption, where they are held in complete disdain by other world

leaders, a man wrededdedsed to some 1970s bankrupt ideology, this is the

man we need, the full ghastliness of the European idea will be brought

into widespread attention. #12k3w4r it is, is it not, quite remarkable

that -- It is, is it not, quite remarkable that given the European

elections and events in the eurozone, youth unemployment and so

on, that there is deep disillusion with the European project across not

just in this country. I mean the National Front won the election in

France and they are as eurosceptic as you can get but the response of

the European elite is to choose a man synonymous with the European

establishment way of doing things? I have to grant you, that is true. I

would prefer to talk about David Cameron and I think he's being

damaged by this - I'm going to fight this on the beaches and that. That's

just process. It is not. When he talks about the great reforms he is

going to win from the European Union he will then put before the British

people in his referendum, people are not going to be so sure he can

achieve them. People have said - absolutely he is going to stop this

man, Juncker. Was he right? He has a point of view, he is entitled to it.

That's not what I asked. Is he right? I think in the way he did it

was foolish. A typical Labour response. You sit on the fence doing

nothing. I'm not. Is he right or wrong? Should we have Juncker or

not? I don't feel strongly whether we have him or not. You don't have

any opinion on the subject. Labour has been criticising the process of

how he has handled T we can all be Monday morning quarterbacks on that.

European is a labyrinthite operation. We do know what Mr

Cameron stands for on this, he doesn't want Juncker or a

federalist. We don't know what Labour or the Liberal Democrats

want. Well, the Liberal Democrats can speak for themselves, as can

Labour. What we do have to do is work with everyone in Europe to

achieve a candidate. You can't go out on a limb as calm reason seems

to keep doing saying - I'm going to have this and that and I'm in the

going to work with the rest. Don't you think it would be popular given

what this man stands for and given the mood of the British people for

Mr Cameron to say - I may not have won because I don't have the votes

but I fought against this guy. It may work out in practice, we will

have to wait and see. This brings home actual lit disastrous position

which Miliband is in. He is not really on -- actually the

disastrous. Mr Miliband. On this programme, you are quite right.

Cameron is going out there and fighting a very honourable battle

for reform inside Europe. We can see he is on the right side. He

expresses himself. And these sort of halfwhich thes in Brussels. It is

not only the half wits, in Brussels. Idiots I might say. Who are

apparently saying one thing to David Cameron and another thing publicly.

It is not just the people in Brussels who want Juncker, it is

lots of other European leaders, you can't Diss them as well. Why do so

many people in Luxembourg get the top jobs? Is there something in the

coffee? If The one side for a camera and this is that people will be

falling over themselves out of this certainly the offside for the

camera. Angela Merkel made this clear

yesterday. Britain has to take this on the chin. But they will do a deal

later on. What will be said is that if Mr Cameron could not get his way

over Mr Juncker, how will he get his way over the repatriations of major

powers from Brussels back to the UK? That is a fair charge. That was

always the risk of thinking is a fair charge. That was always the

risk of taking a strategy That is a commission job. That is relevant to

the repatriations. That is just frustrating in Brussels. If he

cannot get his way on this, how does he get away -- his way on the more

complicated matter of convincing Europeans that he should be able to

repatriate all of these powers? We have to wait and see. The European

Commission is not the only entity that can make or break David

Cameron's renationalisation agenda. The commission is important. But a

lot of things will be decided among national governments. What do you

make of Peter Cockburn who says that getting Mr Juncker in would be great

for Euroscepticism to matter as Mac? I agree. The problem with this is

that if the UK does stay in a reformed European Union, we do not

want to set the president -- precedent whereby the Parliament

selects the president. I thought we thought there was a democratic

deficit and we want to do something about it? We do. But I don't think

anybody thinks that younger is going to be elected on a wave of

democratic sentiment across the union. Thank you.

Now, while the England flag is being flown from pub windows, on car roofs

and even in Downing Street, another, lesser know flag has this week been

On Monday a brand new flag for Sussex was flown by Eric Pickles

on his department's office block, in celebration of Sussex Day.

It's a relatively new invention, and it got the team here at

Daily Politics wondering whether other counties in England

Every county has its own character but when it comes to choosing a

county flag there seems to be some common themes. Put something local

on it. Nottinghamshire nodded towards its most famous local outlaw

when it first adopted bears. Two, there is always immense local pride.

Listen to the good folk of Worcestershire as the three pairs

graced the flagpole for the first time. It is great. It represents the

county. It is good. Very impressed, yes. And third, they are usually

chosen through some sort of competition, for example, how would

the people of Northamptonshire choose between these four beauties?

But as we found in Derbyshire a few years ago, you cannot please all of

the people all of the time. Out of these three it was my least

favourite but not to worry. It goes to show that across our green and

pleasant land, county pride is flourishing. Not flagging.

Joining us now in the studio is Graham Bartram who

is the Flag Institute's chief vexillologist - that's an expert

And in our Brighton studios is Peter White, a Sussex town crier who

Let me come to, FIFA 5-to celebrate so six-day? With the raising of the

flight. They help to raise days running. That's my with the raising

of the flag. Other than raising the flag, what

else did you do? There is a charter. Sometimes people read the Sussex

Charter. There is a Sussex Charter that can be read. Sometimes the

person reading it decides to customising a little so that it

applies to the town in which it is being read as well as the wonderful

counties of east and West Sussex. Does not sound like a lot of laughs.

Did you have a party? There was a party in one place and people

celebrated with a cup of tea in another. What do you make of the

Sussex flag to I am a traditionalist and I still prefer the old red and

gold. That is just me. The new flag has got its plans. It has also hurt

his detractors. People are not quite sure where it came from. It has now

been approved. Those people who are a little worried about Europe also

point out that it is blue and gold like the European flag. When the

town council finds money for the new one, they will probably switch. I

understand you prefer to flag is six? You could risk setting county

against county. They have had their own flag since the 1880s. Very

interesting. Graham Bartram, it is not just Sussex. A lot of English

counties are no choosing their own flag. Why is that? It is all to do

with having an identity. Global identity becoming more important as

a counterpoint to globalisation. As we all become more of the same, it

is more important to be identified as different. To connect more with

our local roots. Has the -- has it got anything to do with the

increasing, the most entire uses often now, where they used the

Scottish sole tyre? They are linked but not caused by. They are caused

by the same thing. It is a desire to have a strong identity. It is much

easier to have a strong identity of something closer to you than it is

to have something more amorphous, such as Europe or the world. Peter,

for a long time in post-war Britain, we seem to be determined to

snuff out English county identity, local government reforms got rid of

all names etc. Do you think the sense of belonging to a county is

coming back to people? There was this illusion in the 1960s and 1970s

when Middlesex disappeared and half of Surrey disappear. There has been

a swing public mood. People are becoming more enthusiastic. Cornwall

and Yorkshire have always been like that. Other counties are catching

up. Graham, who decides what the flag should the parties county? It

varies. Sometimes the County Council decided to give the flag to the

people. Northumberland is like that. Hertfordshire is like that.

Sometimes it is very old historical flag. The gold markets on blue is

actually the flag of Sussex from 1622. It feels like a long way. It

has got nothing to do with European partners. That's my theory goes back

a long way. Lots of them behind us. That is a dragon. That is Somerset.

That is quite a new one. That is a dragon! They have ripped it off. The

red rose of Lancashire and the white rose of Yorkshire are traditional

emblems. We can show your Dorset flag, Peter. There is. What you

think that is there still a bit of pride in new? Is the heart beating?

I think this is tremendous. We could on to Edward Heath's does that --

disastrous local government regulations. That was local

government organisation. The counties still existed. Middlesex

still exists. My relatives were born in Lancashire suddenly became

Cheshire. I have never got over that. If you were to say your

identity has to be based on collect your litter bins, how many people in

Somerset police their identity is far North East Somerset? I don't

think many people would be. And so far four Somerset. I live in

Knightsbridge and we have a flag. It is the Russian Federation! Gave us a

ring of your belt. If you are absolutely happy with that and your

sound engineers are. God Save The Queen! Thank you very much for that.

Who's had a good week, and who's had a shocker?

Here's Adam, with the political week - in just 60 seconds.

Heathrow to give his party leg above the four election results. This will

be independent liberal professor from an independent Liberal party.

They have all got a constitution as an independent Scotland would have

won, too. That's according to Nicola Sturgeon. Three years after it was

wrecked by a frying mob, the British embassy in Iran is to reopen. Who

fancies being our man in Teheran? Ed Miliband set out some fairly thickly

changes to the benefits system and with impeccable timing the dark Lord

returned with some helpful advice. It may work. It may well be

successful. Presumably the Chinese prime minister got through passport

control of it but we unveiled a new Visa regime for tourists from his

country. He shall find deals for nuclear power and high-speed rail.

That he shall find deals. A fourth and fifth in there were

little and any demonstrations. Human Rights Watch kicked into the long

grass. It is changed days. It really is. I was talking to a couple of

human rights lawyers and as if ever I've read. They think the way to get

human rights improve his bike trade. We are in different ways. The

jurisprudence of all of these contracts in London. They get the

big fees? Your life that is a regrettable but necessary fact. I am

sorry you missed the whole. That was the big story of the week. What do

you do with a problem like Ed Miliband? We have this quiz. We have

got to give the answer. With richer -- British press Vladimir Putin try

to stop? That which British pressure group is Vladimir Putin meant to

stop? It was the anti-fracking lobby. Why? Because fracking

represents a serious threat to Mr Putin's gas prices, of which 70% of

its revenues depend. Thanks to Jackie Ashley,

Peter Oborne and all my guests. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday

with the Sunday Politics, when I'll be talking to

Labour's Rachel Reeves.