Browse content similar to 20/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Fierce battles are under way in parts of Iraq as Islamist | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
militants and government forces fight for control | :00:42. | :00:43. | |
We'll discuss the latest developments | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
and the threat posed by these jihadists back here in Britain. | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
Iain Duncan Smith comes under fire over his welfare reforms, as | :00:54. | :01:04. | |
Which county has adopted a flag with three black pears as its standard? | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
And why are people across England going crazy for celebrating | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
We'll talk to the country's leading vexillologist and a town crier. | :01:12. | :01:20. | |
And we'll profile this 17th century philosopher in the latest of our | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
series on Britain's favourite political thinkers. | :01:25. | :01:32. | |
It's surprising, really, that this most conservative philosophers | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
should promote ideas that were radical and would have such a | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
revolutionary impact. And with us for the duration two | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
newspaper columnists - Peter Oborne of the Daily Telegraph, | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
and Jackie Ashley of the Guardian. Now, there's a glut of stories this | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
morning about various aspects of To take us through them all, | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
let's talk to our political It's like alphabet soup. PIP, USA, | :02:01. | :02:22. | |
the PAC. Let's start with Margaret Hodge's Public Accounts Committee? | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
Behind those acronyms there are a few pretty important stories. You | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
need to get through the thick et to get to them. Personal independence | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
payments, money to help people suffering from a long-term | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
disability. There was a report by the National Audit Office, the | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
official number crunchers, in February, that found all sorts of | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
fundamental issues. The Government not realising ing how many | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
assessments would have to be done. How serious they would be and how | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
long they would take. Margaret Hodge, the chair of the Public | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
Accounts Committee, a woman who cuts through these things defendant lane | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
strongly has given her -- defendantly and strongly has given | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
her characteristic robust response. It has been a shambolic fiasco. | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
People have had to wait for far too long to be assessed. Remember we are | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
talking about vulnerable people, disabled people who need extra money | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
to live in their home. They will have been through a life-changing, | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
or experiencing a life-changing condition, for example, they may | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
have had a stroke, they've got cancer. They may have had a motor | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
cycle accident and they need this benefit to live. And the Government | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
says all that assessment is based on old figures, old numbers, they say | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
they are on time and on budge wet that plan. Speak being on budge | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
eted. The Government's limit on welfare spending, recently unveiled. | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
There is a story about that might be breached because of spending on ESA. | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
Tell us about that? The employment and support allowance. It is not new | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
T replaced income support in 2008 T appears there are problems. | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
Documents leaked to the BBC show civil servants scratching their | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
heads and saying - this is costing a lot of money, what do we do about | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
it? And coming to the conclusion that they weren't awfully sure. One | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
of the documents suggest this is one of the largest fiscal risks | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
currently facing the Government and they also suggest the risk is so | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
great it could breach the Government's welfare cap. The cap on | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
the amount of money it spent on most, not all of welfare for | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
2015/16. The people at the Department for Work and Pensions say | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
these are spurious scone oar yes, sir and they say they are very sure | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
they will not be in a position where they breach that cap. | :04:39. | :04:39. | |
sir and they say they are very sure they will not be However much some | :04:40. | :04:41. | |
of their civil servants appear to have worried about it. And finally | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
the big idea of the Government's welfare reform, to roll up a number | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
of the major benefits into Universal Credit. You get a single payment | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
instead of a raft of payments, it is Iain Duncan Smith's big plan, it has | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
had a lot of critics on the implications and the application of | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
it. Where are we with that? That's thushl. Critics about the way it is | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
being done. -- this is' crucial. It is not necessarily about it | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
happening at all. It has had pretty much cross-party support but the | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
application has note gone smoothly. There are only ten job centres at | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
the moment where you can get this. Something like 6,500 people are | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
getting Universal Credit. They hoped it might be 1 million originally by | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
now. As of Monday there will be an extra four job centres to add to | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
those ten. They hope by the end of the year, another 86 in the | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
north-west of England. You shove all these things together and Labour see | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
a department on the point of crisis. They say - look, this tells you all | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
you need to know about how this place is being run by Iain Duncan | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
Smith and those working for him. Inside the DWP they argue and they | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
argue pretty forcibly it has to be said - you simply cannot say that. | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
They have put in place complex stuff, also inrollment on pensions, | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
a new jobs website. A contract they also say for people taking up | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
employment and they argue they can deliver things and where things have | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
had problems in the past they are sorting it out. The big issue with | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
all of this, we are not just talking about theory and politics and who is | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
up and who is down, when this goes wrong, people suffer, July they | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
shall people don't get money, that's why it is so high profile and why it | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
matters and the figures on the national books are huge. It is | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
difficult stuff this. You have got to get it right. Thank you very | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
much. I think you may need to go and lie in a dark room to recover after | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
that. The interesting thing about this, is | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
as a general principle the Government's welfare reforms are | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
popular. Even Labour seems this week to be running to try to catch up. | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
But the devil is in the detail. A lot of that seems to be going wrong. | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
I think the problem is they have had a long time to prepare for this. It | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
has been Iain Duncan Smith's baby for many years now, this whole idea | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
of reforming welfare. But they have not piloted the properly. The idea | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
was to pilot it in lots of areas first and then roll it out. They | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
have not taken into account that by doing more individual assessments, | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
the basis behind t to get rid of what they call the scroungers, it is | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
taking time. It is taking time for people to do that and getting the | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
appointments done. No-one has looked into the mechanics of how it would | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
operate which is why it seems to be falling to pieces. Is the welfare | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
reform project still on the rails, or is it in danger of falling off | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
the rails? It is definitely on the rails. I think it is worth just | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
looking back a bit and thinking why it had to be done. Basically the | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
beverage bell fair state was in collapse. In an act, I think -- | :07:37. | :07:44. | |
Beverage Welfare state was in collapse. I think Gordon Brown used | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
the to create a basis for Labour voters. In other words the welfare | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
state paid you to be remain unemployment and have no hope in | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
your life. If you went on to get a job, financially it became an | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
impossible thing to do. Mr Brown did that? That was Mr Brown did, that it | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
was evil. As Chancellor, what he did was abuse this great noble yfted | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
welfare state, to help people if they lose jobs, if -- great noble | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
idea of the welfare state. To help people if they lose jobs and are | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
suffering abject property and made it a lifestyle. We saw it in | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
Benefits Street that successful programme. People who were supported | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
by the state to be out of a job. You think that Gordon Brown did this | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
deliberately? I think it was something Labour boasted about. It | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
created a system that was so complex that you couldn't get off the dole. | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
It is an incredibly brave and wonder ful thing which Iain Duncan Smith is | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
doing and trying to do. Now, what these reports have shown and we have | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
had it with the Universal Credit, is it has been very, very difficult to | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
change the basis. I think the signs are that they are certainly trying | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
still to push it through. Thank you. I'd better let Jackie reply. I can't | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
quite believe I heard people say that Gordon Brown deliberately | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
wanted people to sit at home. I thought he was a big believer in | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
that Scottish Presbyterian work ethic? And he need ed to balance the | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
books. It wasn't good for the question. It was disastrous. | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
It became too complicated and too many benefits and some people taking | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
advantage and Iain Duncan Smith has struck a chord when he says it is | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
wrong for whole families to be on benefits for years and years. The | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
human stories that the Public Accounts Committee uncovered during | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
their inquiry is really shocking and it shouldn't be allowed to happen | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
this quickly, leaving people with months and months with no benefits. | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
I can't prove he deliberately did it in that way but that was the effect | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
of the Brown system, to create a base of people dependent on the | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
state. I remember the Thatcher Government taking people off | :10:03. | :10:04. | |
unemployment benefit and putting them on disability benefit because | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
it was open-ended. Which is why you have the employment and support | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
allowance problem. Anyway, the debate continues but for us. Time | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
for the daily quiz: According to the Secretary General | :10:15. | :10:30. | |
of NATO, with which British pressure group is Vladimir Putin said to be | :10:31. | :10:32. | |
plotting against? A) Anti-fracking campaigners, | :10:33. | :10:34. | |
b) The Cat Protection League, c) Fathers 4 Justice, or d) | :10:35. | :10:36. | |
The Automobile Association? At the end of the show Jackie | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
and Peter will give us In Iraq the fighting between | :10:40. | :10:48. | |
the Islamist-led militants ISIS and pro-government forces is continuing. | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
Fierce battles are being fought at Baiji, the country's biggest oil | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
refinery and Tal Afar airport in northern Iraq, which | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
the rebels claim to have seized. The United States, | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
the only Western power with any real ability to intervene, | :11:09. | :11:10. | |
doesn't seem to have the appetite. President Obama is reluctant to get | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
involved and that reflects US opinion. | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
But he said yesterday he'd send 300 military advisers to help the Iraqi | :11:17. | :11:17. | |
government. We have had advisors in Iraq through | :11:18. | :11:26. | |
our embassy and we are prepared to send a small number of | :11:27. | :11:28. | |
our embassy and we are prepared to send a small number additional | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
American military advisors, up to 300, to assess how we can best | :11:31. | :11:32. | |
train, advice and support 300, to assess how we can best | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
train, advice Iraqi security forces going forward. American forces will | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
not be returning to combat in Iraq. But we will help Iraqis as they take | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
the fight to terrorists who threaten the Iraqi people in the region and | :11:47. | :11:48. | |
American interests as well. Tlr concerns over the danger of | :11:49. | :12:13. | |
blowback into their own countries. Earlier this week David Cameron said | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
"It was the most serious concern to British security." Pointing to | :12:20. | :12:28. | |
British jihadists returning to Britain. | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
Is David Cameron right? Are Jihadis returning from eastern, western | :12:35. | :12:43. | |
Iraq, the biggest threat to the UK from terror? They are one of the | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
biggest threats. They have warned Western | :12:50. | :12:50. | |
from terror? They are one of the biggest threats. They have countries | :12:51. | :12:52. | |
of the fact they intend to return to attack here. They have thousands of | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
fighters, foreign fighters, who have come from different countries to | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
join them in Syria and Iraq and relatively unnoticed we've had a | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
successful attack on European soil. It happened to be a French jihadist | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
who attacked the Jewish museum in Belgium. He was a returning fighter | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
from Syria. Though it has gone relatively unnoticed, that precedent | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
has been set. We have arrests in Britain where people have attempted | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
to attack after returning from Syria. We have had fluent | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
English-speaking fighters warn Canada and America that they'll | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
return to their countries of origin and attack and it is worrying | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
because at this moment in time we have more foreign and European | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
fighters in Syria than ever went to Afghanistan. We have all heard of | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
the Afghan blowback and I think we are woefully unprepared for the | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
Syria blowback. Our own Frankrd Gardener, the BBC's security | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
correspondent that estimates are 2,000 have gone from Europe, of | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
which between 400 and 450 have come from this country. I suppose the | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
danger is, that it is quite clear that they are being well-trained, | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
that they will be or are already battle-hardened, that they are | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
extreme. We know that ISIS is extreme. So, they are, if they come | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
back, the potential for them to be dangerous people, when they come | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
back I would have thought is very high. A no-brainer. When you say, | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
treem, let's put in context how extreme. This is a group that's too | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
extreme for Al-Qaeda, Al-Qaeda has expelled ISIS from its Chan fra be | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
chies. They believe them to be too unruly and uncontrollable. That's | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
what we are dealing W there are roughly 400 British born and raised | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
citizens who have gone there. They are joining a group too extreme for | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
Al-Qaeda. There is no turning back. ISIS after the conquest of Mosul and | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
other cities amounting to one-third of Iraq, has set a new global | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
standard for global jihadists. Al-Qaeda is yesterday's news. People | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
coming to join them, are joining ISIS. It is the new zeitgeist. It is | :14:57. | :15:06. | |
very worrying, they are literally unhinged as a nation. Speaking of | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
the British nationals, do we know who they are and why they have gone? | :15:10. | :15:25. | |
The security forces have a these early saying security services who | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
seem to have no idea that ISIS was about to take the second biggest | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
city in Iraq and huge chunks of the desert. If they didn't know that, | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
why would we have confidence that they know who these people are? It | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
is sad, it is unfortunate that last year I warned on the BBC of foreign | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
fighters for a film we made with this week. People reacted by saying | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
it was sensationalist, it was not going to happen. A couple of weeks | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
before ISIS took most of all, we were warned they would go into Iraq. | :16:02. | :16:08. | |
-- moulds all. We seem to have a pendulum approach to these sorts of | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
issues. We did not like what happened with the original invasion | :16:12. | :16:25. | |
of Iraq. We have taken a back foot. These people, when they returned to | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
Britain, or they may go to Turkey, Pakistan... Are we in any position | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
to know that when they land at Heathrow Airport or at Dover, that | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
we know who they are and where they have been? No. It is complicated by | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
the fact that some people have gone for a genuinely charitable and | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
medical purposes. The real concern is that there are up to 400 who have | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
gone to fight. It is very difficult to fill in. You can take a holiday | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
in Turkey and walk through the porous border. It is difficult to | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
avoid the little's incentives are in fact it. If this is a long-term stop | :17:08. | :17:19. | |
there is no short-term fix. Until now, there is no "too challenging | :17:20. | :17:28. | |
extremism in this country. Given that the security services don't | :17:29. | :17:38. | |
know what is going on, how do you have for the fourth of humour I say | :17:39. | :17:52. | |
that. There are organisations are actively monitoring and verify | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
individual voices from the cases they have been interviewed. There | :17:56. | :18:03. | |
are hundreds of fighters from you. Would review the side, I don't think | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
there is any doubt that there are some, sometimes these figures are | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
thrown out as they gain currency. You're never sure what the | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
provinces. But assuming this is a problem, what do we do about them? | :18:22. | :18:33. | |
We have first of all to acknowledge that we created a lot of the | :18:34. | :18:46. | |
problem. The last three years Britain has been enabling and | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
helping this lot in Syria. It has been part of the British policy to | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
bring them on our side. We have been very careless about the people we | :18:59. | :19:00. | |
have entered alliances with. The ISIS fighters, from the Baathist | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
army. They come from the groups we have created in order to get out of | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
Iraq cleanly. They come party from these jihadist groups who worked | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
alongside our allies in Qatar. In what way has Britain helped ISIS? It | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
was our policy to bring down Assad. We did not have the will or microbes | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
are perhaps not the ability to intervene directly to get rid of | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
Assad. So we allowed the Saudis and the Qataris to fund these terror | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
groups. How could we stop the -- how could we stop them? They are our | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
allies. The use of the jihad e-groups, they were on our side. We | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
wanted Assad out. We must acknowledge that is part of the | :19:49. | :19:57. | |
legacy of our Syrian rhetoric. I understand all that but you have not | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
explained how we have directly helped ISIS. I did not say that. All | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
of that is water under the bridge. The issue is what is to be done now. | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
We think there are a number of these people. They are British national. | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
If they are nationalised British citizens, we have the power to stop | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
them. If they are British nationals, born here, there is not a lot we can | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
do. The intelligence services, someone said to me in a previous | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
programme, the intelligence services would have to monitor them. I think | :20:31. | :20:38. | |
part of the problem is that ever since the weapons of mass | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
destruction weren't there, there is a great sense of not believing the | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
security services know when they say there are all of these people. I'm | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
sure this is part of the problem you are finding. People say nothing is | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
happening. We have really got to get the public onside and say, this is a | :20:55. | :21:06. | |
thread. -- threat. All of that is fine. It doesn't address the major | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
problem is that if these people, when they come back to this country, | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
as many of them will do, and they present their passports to border | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
control, and if we are lucky enough to know that they have been part of | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
ISIS, part of beheading squads, part of rounding up people and killing | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
them, shooting them in the back, what do we do? There is very little | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
in the short term. We don't know who is gone in the first place. There is | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
very little in the short term we can do. We must start counter messaging | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
online. ISIS have an app. They have a smartphone. They are so far ahead. | :21:48. | :21:56. | |
We are so far behind. We are so far behind in terms of grassroots and | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
communities in this country. 400 fighters roughly do not just get up | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
and risk their lives without coming from a certain atmosphere that | :22:05. | :22:06. | |
generates the sympathy for that cause. Yet the communities in local | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
government department, four years too late, is yet to publish its | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
non--- is extremist strategy. That may help deal with the problem in | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
the future. Where we seem to have no policy response at all is in how we | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
deal with those that have already gone. Some of them are in prison. | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
The national vendor 's management service does not have a | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
comprehensive the radicalisation plan for prisons. Jihadist groups | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
are openly recruiting in prisons. And there is no strategy in place to | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
start the counter messaging and presence. There are 3% of this | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
country who are Muslims yet 20% are in the prison population. They are | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
vulnerable to radicalisation and predisposed to violent environments. | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
We have two take out finger out and challenge extremism. Sadly, we are | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
dithering on this subject and we have been for too long. Is their any | :23:08. | :23:18. | |
good news?! ISIS appears to want to control a state. It needs oil | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
fields. That means boarders at the end of the day. That means it has | :23:24. | :23:35. | |
certain conventional... Al-Qaeda had no designs. It was not based | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
anywhere. That suggests to me there is a possibility that eventually | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
they will settle down and become an area of land which you can negotiate | :23:44. | :23:52. | |
with. I don't know. That is a bit of a silver | :23:53. | :23:52. | |
with. I don't know. That is a bit lining there! | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
Now if you're an avid follower of the Daily Politics, | :23:59. | :24:00. | |
you'll know about our long-running series which showcases some of the | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
We've discussed Karl Marx, Niccolo Machiavelli, Friedrich Hayek, Peter | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
You can see all of the films in the series on our website. | :24:10. | :24:22. | |
Today we're looking at the 17th century English | :24:23. | :24:24. | |
These video is not running. I will now give a lecture on John Locke. -- | :24:25. | :24:52. | |
the video. I did political philosophy at University. He was | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
quite a good writer. He liked the odd cup of tea in the morning. | :24:56. | :24:57. | |
And Lisa Nandy joins us now from our studios in Salford. | :24:58. | :25:05. | |
You have no idea how happy I am to see you! Hi, Andrew! I will take | :25:06. | :25:18. | |
that as a compliment. You are a champion for John Locke. Tell us | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
why. Quite simply because he had such an astonishing impact not just | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
here in Britain but on the rest of the world as well. He had this huge | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
inside the Government 's don't get their power handed to them by God. | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
They get their power from the people and rule only by the well and | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
consent of the people. That gave us the basis of Parliamentary democracy | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
and sparked off revolutions in France, America and you can see John | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
Locke basically written into every line of the American Constitution | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
still today. Can we count him among those philosophers both in this | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
country and in continental Europe, that began laying down the | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
philosophical case for governments to be held accountable by the | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
people? Absolutely. He went further than that. He said governments have | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
two rule in the interests of the people that put them there. And if | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
they don't do that, they can be removed. Although John Locke was | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
actually quite an establishment figure, he certainly was not a | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
radical or revolutionary. He went on -- it was that that provided the | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
underpinning for the American and French revolutions. He made a huge | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
impact around the world. If you think now as well that there are | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
still people fighting for the right to be recognised as the people are | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
power should reside, with limits on executives and their ability to rule | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
over them. These things are really important. I have got more questions | :26:52. | :27:00. | |
to ask you. I am delighted to say, we have put a shilling in the meter | :27:01. | :27:08. | |
and there is just a chance your film will run. Let me hold my breath and | :27:09. | :27:10. | |
see what happens. John Locke life. He joined in safe | :27:11. | :27:39. | |
in the and here in the library I have in front of me letters that | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
John Locke wrote back to the Royal Society. One from Montpelier. | :27:44. | :27:50. | |
Observations of the moon. Here, in Paris, a letter written on | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
observations of a medical quirk. Here, a constitution, a part of | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
colonial America. Things like this became the foundation for the | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
American Constitution. This is a man with varied interests and | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
interesting things to say. Today we would call him a polymath. I am off | :28:12. | :28:19. | |
to meet a Labour MP who thinks his philosophy of politics is what makes | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
him relevant. Let's start at the very beginning. Lisa, we have come | :28:24. | :28:32. | |
to a nursery, which may seem odd but it is one of John Locke's big theory | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
is that we were all born a blank slate and accumulate knowledge. What | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
excited you about John Locke? That theory made a huge splash at the | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
time. What excited me was the theory of a quality he puts forward. We are | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
surrounded by children, all of them with different characteristics. What | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
John Locke argued was that for the purposes of political representation | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
none of those differences matter. We are all equal. When I first picked | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
up these books at university and found this radical idea in what is | :29:09. | :29:10. | |
really quite an established and -- establishment figure, I thought he | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
was worth reading. Those radical ideas get him into trouble with the | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
establishment. I want to take you to the scene of what may or may have | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
been -- may not have been a plot. Let's go. Lisa, this is right house. | :29:24. | :29:36. | |
It is just a gatehouse now. In 1683, John Locke is implicated in a plot | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
to kill Charles II, who was king, and his brother James, who will | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
become king. John Locke asked to flee Netherlands. He does not come | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
back to Britain. -- John Locke asked to flee to the Netherlands. William | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
of Orange is installed on this wrong. It seems he is adapting to | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
those people in power because they seem to believe what he believes? I | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
think you are looking at this the wrong way round. He was riding for | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
those people in power. People who had the ability to change things. At | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
times this makes his philosophy seem inconsistent, perhaps a little bit | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
incoherent. The really exciting thing about John Locke is that he | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
was a doer as well as a thinker. He lived through these tremendous | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
times, the battle for power between King and Parliament. His argument | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
about the limits of power changed what was to happen next. Doctor | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
Elizabeth Fraser of Oxford University is clear that not only | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
does John Locke affect what happens next year, but abroad, too, by | :30:42. | :30:49. | |
making a simple argument. He's the great theorist of anti-patriarch | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
it. He set out to argue that patriarchal list theory, which was | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
very common in the 17th century, the idea that political power is the | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
power of the father over his son, it is the power of the husband over his | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
wife, that is what the King's power is, he set out to show that that is | :31:09. | :31:10. | |
false. This is where John Locke worshipped | :31:11. | :31:25. | |
for the last 13 years of his life. He is buried in the churchyard. | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
Church is quite important to one of his principal philosophies, the | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
separation of power between church and government? Locke was concerned | :31:35. | :31:43. | |
with the limits of Government power. Instead of seeing the monarchy what | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
happeneded down divine right from God. He seen it as the power of the | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
people. This of paved the way for the American War of Independence and | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
the French revolution. If you look at the American constitution, you | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
can see Locke written into every line of that document. It's | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
surprising, really, that this most conservative of philosophers should | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
end up pushing forwards ideas that were tremendously radical and have | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
such a revolutionary impact. Speaking about the church, he is | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
very interested in religion, isn't he? He writes this profound defence | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
of religion toleration. He might have been doing that for political | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
reasons, but the impact was to launch the first sustained campaign | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
for religion freedom from inside the Church of England. Let's see if we | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
can find his grave, in the churchyard. | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
I think, if I'm right, yes, there he is. There we go. The plaque here was | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
actually put together by the American and British Commonwealth | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
association. So, clearly, they understand the importance that he | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
has in the American political system but what relevance does John Locke | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
have to us today? I think he is hugely relevant. His defence of | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
toleration set up broad principles which mattered with the far right | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
sweeping Europe. But there is something more than that, that I | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
think he will be remembered for. He set out the foundation of Western | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
democracy, this idea that Government only derives its legitimacy from the | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
will of the people and with trust in politicians at an all-time low and | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
people dissatisfied with politics as a whole, we could do so much worse | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
than to revisit the writings of a man from the 17th century to find | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
answers to some of the really challenging problems that we face | :33:36. | :33:37. | |
today. Now back to Lisa Nandy who was on | :33:38. | :33:53. | |
the film, in Salford now. There were Coentra digses to what he wrote. You | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
say he wanted religion toleration, but not for atheists. Yes. But | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
interestingly, though, on the other side he was way ahead of his time in | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
that he disliked the power of man over women, at a time when even | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
progressive philosophers were largely writing about men? Yes, | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
there were lots of contradictions in his writing. I think that was | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
largely because he was writing for political purposes. He wrote about | :34:22. | :34:29. | |
the way of stopping a Catholic from descending the throne and he wrote | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
about religion toleration to prevent Catholicism taking over, as as he | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
saw T whether what he did was by design or accident what he did | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
provoked the freedom of thought. Not just religious thought but this idea | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
that the Government and churches don't have any right toll tell us | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
what we believe and violence isn't ineffective it is also illegitimate | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
that. Defence has lasted for much longer and can be easily extended to | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
things like women's rights, for example, for to atheists' rights to | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
believe what they may believe. Locke might have been horrified that that | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
would have been where his argument ended up being used but envelopes it | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
makes him an important figure. OK, thank you for that. | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
Jackie, I suspect he might also have been surprised that once we got | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
government that is were accountable to the people, how disillusioned we | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
became with them. A more verious defence of Locke, I'm not sure I | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
would describe him as the first great feminist thinker which seemed | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
to be coming out of Lisa's analysis He Weualities put our values out of | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
other generations. For me, not enough social justice in his | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
philosophy. A great man. Jackie has put her finger on T it is marvellous | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
to see that the Labour Party is coming to appreciate John Locke the | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
great defender of property. He was also - and fabulous to see some | :35:55. | :36:02. | |
Oxford don making out he is the project of feminism. He was a | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
radical philosopher at the time but he became - he is now a very | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
conservative philosopher because his ideas were embodied in the American | :36:10. | :36:17. | |
state. And he's - and we should celebrate him as Conservatives and | :36:18. | :36:18. | |
it is wonderful that Labour... celebrate him as Conservatives and | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
it is wonderful Didn't he have a wonderful nose didn't you think? It | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
was quite a hooter. I wouldn't disagree with this point about | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
feminism. I don't think you can make a strong case for Locke as a | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
feminist at all. I think the point about property is | :36:35. | :36:35. | |
feminist at all. I think the point about quite interesting because one | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
of the things that Locke argues is that we only derive our ownership of | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
property because we expend our energy in creating something with T | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
he has this huge section of his philosophy where he talks about | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
tilling the land and mixing your labour with the land and that is | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
where you derive your ownership from the fruits of that labour from. | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
That, was an idea that was to become pretr he men duesly significant | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
later on when it was taken up by Karl Marx. It is right to say he is | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
a Conservative philosopher but he has had an impact in many, many way | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
that is he would never have anticipated. All right. Lisa Nandy | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
thank you very much. Good to talk to you. Thanks. As I say, you can see | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
all of our pen portraits of philosophers over the centuries gone | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
by on our websites. Are there any women among them? I'm not sure. Oh, | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
dear. Mary Wilson, perhaps. She'll do. Phew! This was meant to | :37:31. | :37:38. | |
be an easy segment of the problem. # neck -- of the programme. | :37:39. | :37:48. | |
It was a hard fought competition, and despite a valiant effort it's | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
But I'm not talking about some soccer tournament in | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
South America, I'm talking about the Europe's next Commission President. | :37:57. | :37:58. | |
I know you've been talking about nothing else. | :37:59. | :38:00. | |
David Cameron will have one final chance to stop the coronation | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
of Luxembourger Jean-Claude Junker at next week's EU summit - | :38:04. | :38:05. | |
As well as being in charge of the money, the Commission initiates | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
all EU legislation, acts as a guardian of the EU treaties and it | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
Whilst European leaders propose who becomes the President, | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
they now have to make the choice taking into account the elections to | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
The European People's Party won that election and proposed Mr Junker | :38:26. | :38:33. | |
as its candidate, a man who David Cameron described | :38:34. | :38:35. | |
Just to make it even harder, Britain doesn't have a veto | :38:36. | :38:43. | |
The decision is made by qualified majority and the | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
Prime Minister needs support from countries representing 38% of the | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
Whilst a number of leaders have privately expressed reservations, | :38:53. | :39:03. | |
Just like the England football team, there is still a slim chance | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
of success and it rests on the Italians. | :39:10. | :39:12. | |
Italy's Prime Minister Metteo Renzi could be an unlikely ally. | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
Mr Renzi is said to be unhappy at Juncker's austerity plans and may | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
this week. the Presidency was clear in PMQs | :39:23. | :39:36. | |
It is a simple principle, much more connected to the principle than the | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
name. It is this, I think it will 's be shared on every side of the | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
House. The members of the European Council who are the elected Prime | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
Ministers and elected presidents under the treaties, we should choose | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
who runs the European Commission. I don't mind how many people on the | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
European Council disagree with me, I will fight this right to the very | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
end. And what I would say - what I would say to my colleagues on the | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
European Council, many of whom have expressed interesting views about | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
both this principle and this person, "If you want reform in Europe, you | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
have to stand up for it." If you want change, you have to vote for | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
it. That's the message I will take and that is is the right message for | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
our country. joined by Stephen Booth, research | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
director at the think-tank Open Is it a done deal, will Mr Juncker | :40:29. | :40:41. | |
get the job? He is the favourite. The irony is what has been held up | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
is the great hope for pan-European democracy has descended in horse | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
trading and backroom deals we have seen in the past. As you mentioned | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
earlier, it sli still a swing voter and there is still a degree of | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
unpredictability there. If there are others, other than Mr Cameron who | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
don't like the prospect of Mr Juncker, why don't they speak out, | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
too? Lots of things going on. Cameron has made it a point of | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
principle, about the national leadership of the Commission | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
President, not the European Parliament. People like Matteo Renzi | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
in Italy is fighting a different battle, he is concerned about get | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
concessions from germ on on how the eurozone is run. People may end up | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
on the same side but for different reasons. President of the European | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
Parliament think it is should be Mr Juncker and even if it is agreed | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
that they were not going to do that by the European Council, there could | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
be a stalemate because if they nominate somebody else, he or she | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
still has to be approved by the European Parliament? That's right. | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
The European Parliament has a veto over the apartment in the end. You | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
could end up having two or three rounds of this process where | :41:49. | :41:51. | |
national leaders put someone forward and it is either accepted or | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
rejected by MEPs. You are quite keen for Mr Juncker to get the job, I | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
understand, but perhaps not for the same reasons as Mr Juncker? No, no, | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
I think speaking as a yurpted, a Conservative eurosceptic, those who | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
don't wish Europe particularly well, want it to bring itself into | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
disrepute. And some sort of clueless, sort of ex-premier of | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
Luxembourg, that sort of world centre of tax-dodging and | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
corruption, where they are held in complete disdain by other world | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
leaders, a man wrededdedsed to some 1970s bankrupt ideology, this is the | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
man we need, the full ghastliness of the European idea will be brought | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
into widespread attention. #12k3w4r it is, is it not, quite remarkable | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
that -- It is, is it not, quite remarkable that given the European | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
elections and events in the eurozone, youth unemployment and so | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
on, that there is deep disillusion with the European project across not | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
just in this country. I mean the National Front won the election in | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
France and they are as eurosceptic as you can get but the response of | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
the European elite is to choose a man synonymous with the European | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
establishment way of doing things? I have to grant you, that is true. I | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
would prefer to talk about David Cameron and I think he's being | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
damaged by this - I'm going to fight this on the beaches and that. That's | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
just process. It is not. When he talks about the great reforms he is | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
going to win from the European Union he will then put before the British | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
people in his referendum, people are not going to be so sure he can | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
achieve them. People have said - absolutely he is going to stop this | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
man, Juncker. Was he right? He has a point of view, he is entitled to it. | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
That's not what I asked. Is he right? I think in the way he did it | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
was foolish. A typical Labour response. You sit on the fence doing | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
nothing. I'm not. Is he right or wrong? Should we have Juncker or | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
not? I don't feel strongly whether we have him or not. You don't have | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
any opinion on the subject. Labour has been criticising the process of | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
how he has handled T we can all be Monday morning quarterbacks on that. | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
European is a labyrinthite operation. We do know what Mr | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
Cameron stands for on this, he doesn't want Juncker or a | :44:15. | :44:16. | |
federalist. We don't know what Labour or the Liberal Democrats | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
want. Well, the Liberal Democrats can speak for themselves, as can | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
Labour. What we do have to do is work with everyone in Europe to | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
achieve a candidate. You can't go out on a limb as calm reason seems | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
to keep doing saying - I'm going to have this and that and I'm in the | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
going to work with the rest. Don't you think it would be popular given | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
what this man stands for and given the mood of the British people for | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
Mr Cameron to say - I may not have won because I don't have the votes | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
but I fought against this guy. It may work out in practice, we will | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
have to wait and see. This brings home actual lit disastrous position | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
which Miliband is in. He is not really on -- actually the | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
disastrous. Mr Miliband. On this programme, you are quite right. | :45:00. | :45:02. | |
Cameron is going out there and fighting a very honourable battle | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
for reform inside Europe. We can see he is on the right side. He | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
expresses himself. And these sort of halfwhich thes in Brussels. It is | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
not only the half wits, in Brussels. Idiots I might say. Who are | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
apparently saying one thing to David Cameron and another thing publicly. | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
It is not just the people in Brussels who want Juncker, it is | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
lots of other European leaders, you can't Diss them as well. Why do so | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
many people in Luxembourg get the top jobs? Is there something in the | :45:33. | :45:45. | |
coffee? If The one side for a camera and this is that people will be | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
falling over themselves out of this certainly the offside for the | :45:50. | :45:50. | |
camera. Angela Merkel made this clear | :45:51. | :46:03. | |
yesterday. Britain has to take this on the chin. But they will do a deal | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
later on. What will be said is that if Mr Cameron could not get his way | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
over Mr Juncker, how will he get his way over the repatriations of major | :46:16. | :46:23. | |
powers from Brussels back to the UK? That is a fair charge. That was | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
always the risk of thinking is a fair charge. That was always the | :46:28. | :46:34. | |
risk of taking a strategy That is a commission job. That is relevant to | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
the repatriations. That is just frustrating in Brussels. If he | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
cannot get his way on this, how does he get away -- his way on the more | :46:45. | :46:52. | |
complicated matter of convincing Europeans that he should be able to | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
repatriate all of these powers? We have to wait and see. The European | :46:58. | :47:00. | |
Commission is not the only entity that can make or break David | :47:01. | :47:07. | |
Cameron's renationalisation agenda. The commission is important. But a | :47:08. | :47:14. | |
lot of things will be decided among national governments. What do you | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
make of Peter Cockburn who says that getting Mr Juncker in would be great | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
for Euroscepticism to matter as Mac? I agree. The problem with this is | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
that if the UK does stay in a reformed European Union, we do not | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
want to set the president -- precedent whereby the Parliament | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
selects the president. I thought we thought there was a democratic | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
deficit and we want to do something about it? We do. But I don't think | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
anybody thinks that younger is going to be elected on a wave of | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
democratic sentiment across the union. Thank you. | :47:52. | :47:59. | |
Now, while the England flag is being flown from pub windows, on car roofs | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
and even in Downing Street, another, lesser know flag has this week been | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
On Monday a brand new flag for Sussex was flown by Eric Pickles | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
on his department's office block, in celebration of Sussex Day. | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
It's a relatively new invention, and it got the team here at | :48:16. | :48:17. | |
Daily Politics wondering whether other counties in England | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
Every county has its own character but when it comes to choosing a | :48:20. | :48:32. | |
county flag there seems to be some common themes. Put something local | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
on it. Nottinghamshire nodded towards its most famous local outlaw | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
when it first adopted bears. Two, there is always immense local pride. | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
Listen to the good folk of Worcestershire as the three pairs | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
graced the flagpole for the first time. It is great. It represents the | :48:54. | :49:02. | |
county. It is good. Very impressed, yes. And third, they are usually | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
chosen through some sort of competition, for example, how would | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
the people of Northamptonshire choose between these four beauties? | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
But as we found in Derbyshire a few years ago, you cannot please all of | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
the people all of the time. Out of these three it was my least | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
favourite but not to worry. It goes to show that across our green and | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
pleasant land, county pride is flourishing. Not flagging. | :49:30. | :49:40. | |
Joining us now in the studio is Graham Bartram who | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
is the Flag Institute's chief vexillologist - that's an expert | :49:44. | :49:45. | |
And in our Brighton studios is Peter White, a Sussex town crier who | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
Let me come to, FIFA 5-to celebrate so six-day? With the raising of the | :49:51. | :50:06. | |
flight. They help to raise days running. That's my with the raising | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
of the flag. Other than raising the flag, what | :50:11. | :50:23. | |
else did you do? There is a charter. Sometimes people read the Sussex | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
Charter. There is a Sussex Charter that can be read. Sometimes the | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
person reading it decides to customising a little so that it | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
applies to the town in which it is being read as well as the wonderful | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
counties of east and West Sussex. Does not sound like a lot of laughs. | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
Did you have a party? There was a party in one place and people | :50:51. | :50:57. | |
celebrated with a cup of tea in another. What do you make of the | :50:58. | :51:04. | |
Sussex flag to I am a traditionalist and I still prefer the old red and | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
gold. That is just me. The new flag has got its plans. It has also hurt | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
his detractors. People are not quite sure where it came from. It has now | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
been approved. Those people who are a little worried about Europe also | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
point out that it is blue and gold like the European flag. When the | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
town council finds money for the new one, they will probably switch. I | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
understand you prefer to flag is six? You could risk setting county | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
against county. They have had their own flag since the 1880s. Very | :51:42. | :51:50. | |
interesting. Graham Bartram, it is not just Sussex. A lot of English | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
counties are no choosing their own flag. Why is that? It is all to do | :51:54. | :52:01. | |
with having an identity. Global identity becoming more important as | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
a counterpoint to globalisation. As we all become more of the same, it | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
is more important to be identified as different. To connect more with | :52:09. | :52:16. | |
our local roots. Has the -- has it got anything to do with the | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
increasing, the most entire uses often now, where they used the | :52:21. | :52:29. | |
Scottish sole tyre? They are linked but not caused by. They are caused | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
by the same thing. It is a desire to have a strong identity. It is much | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
easier to have a strong identity of something closer to you than it is | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
to have something more amorphous, such as Europe or the world. Peter, | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
for a long time in post-war Britain, we seem to be determined to | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
snuff out English county identity, local government reforms got rid of | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
all names etc. Do you think the sense of belonging to a county is | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
coming back to people? There was this illusion in the 1960s and 1970s | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
when Middlesex disappeared and half of Surrey disappear. There has been | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
a swing public mood. People are becoming more enthusiastic. Cornwall | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
and Yorkshire have always been like that. Other counties are catching | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
up. Graham, who decides what the flag should the parties county? It | :53:29. | :53:35. | |
varies. Sometimes the County Council decided to give the flag to the | :53:36. | :53:43. | |
people. Northumberland is like that. Hertfordshire is like that. | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
Sometimes it is very old historical flag. The gold markets on blue is | :53:47. | :53:54. | |
actually the flag of Sussex from 1622. It feels like a long way. It | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
has got nothing to do with European partners. That's my theory goes back | :53:59. | :54:09. | |
a long way. Lots of them behind us. That is a dragon. That is Somerset. | :54:10. | :54:17. | |
That is quite a new one. That is a dragon! They have ripped it off. The | :54:18. | :54:25. | |
red rose of Lancashire and the white rose of Yorkshire are traditional | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
emblems. We can show your Dorset flag, Peter. There is. What you | :54:30. | :54:36. | |
think that is there still a bit of pride in new? Is the heart beating? | :54:37. | :54:47. | |
I think this is tremendous. We could on to Edward Heath's does that -- | :54:48. | :54:50. | |
disastrous local government regulations. That was local | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
government organisation. The counties still existed. Middlesex | :54:57. | :55:04. | |
still exists. My relatives were born in Lancashire suddenly became | :55:05. | :55:06. | |
Cheshire. I have never got over that. If you were to say your | :55:07. | :55:15. | |
identity has to be based on collect your litter bins, how many people in | :55:16. | :55:22. | |
Somerset police their identity is far North East Somerset? I don't | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
think many people would be. And so far four Somerset. I live in | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
Knightsbridge and we have a flag. It is the Russian Federation! Gave us a | :55:33. | :55:40. | |
ring of your belt. If you are absolutely happy with that and your | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
sound engineers are. God Save The Queen! Thank you very much for that. | :55:46. | :55:52. | |
Who's had a good week, and who's had a shocker? | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
Here's Adam, with the political week - in just 60 seconds. | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
Heathrow to give his party leg above the four election results. This will | :56:02. | :56:17. | |
be independent liberal professor from an independent Liberal party. | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
They have all got a constitution as an independent Scotland would have | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
won, too. That's according to Nicola Sturgeon. Three years after it was | :56:25. | :56:32. | |
wrecked by a frying mob, the British embassy in Iran is to reopen. Who | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
fancies being our man in Teheran? Ed Miliband set out some fairly thickly | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
changes to the benefits system and with impeccable timing the dark Lord | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
returned with some helpful advice. It may work. It may well be | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
successful. Presumably the Chinese prime minister got through passport | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
control of it but we unveiled a new Visa regime for tourists from his | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
country. He shall find deals for nuclear power and high-speed rail. | :57:03. | :57:04. | |
That he shall find deals. A fourth and fifth in there were | :57:05. | :57:18. | |
little and any demonstrations. Human Rights Watch kicked into the long | :57:19. | :57:25. | |
grass. It is changed days. It really is. I was talking to a couple of | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
human rights lawyers and as if ever I've read. They think the way to get | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
human rights improve his bike trade. We are in different ways. The | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
jurisprudence of all of these contracts in London. They get the | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
big fees? Your life that is a regrettable but necessary fact. I am | :57:44. | :57:51. | |
sorry you missed the whole. That was the big story of the week. What do | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
you do with a problem like Ed Miliband? We have this quiz. We have | :57:57. | :58:15. | |
got to give the answer. With richer -- British press Vladimir Putin try | :58:16. | :58:23. | |
to stop? That which British pressure group is Vladimir Putin meant to | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
stop? It was the anti-fracking lobby. Why? Because fracking | :58:27. | :58:34. | |
represents a serious threat to Mr Putin's gas prices, of which 70% of | :58:35. | :58:35. | |
its revenues depend. Thanks to Jackie Ashley, | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
Peter Oborne and all my guests. I'll be back on BBC One on Sunday | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
with the Sunday Politics, when I'll be talking to | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
Labour's Rachel Reeves. | :58:46. | :58:50. |