25/06/2014 Daily Politics


25/06/2014

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Morning folks, welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The jury in the phone-hacking trial has returned this morning to

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consider further charges against the former editor of the

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Mr Coulson, who became David Cameron's Director

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of Communications, was found guilty yesterday

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of conspiracy to hack phones while at the News of the World.

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The Prime Minister has apologised for his decision to hire him.

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No doubt Ed Miliband will be keen to capitalise on an awkward time

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We'll have all the action from PMQs live at midday.

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Jean Claude Juncker looks set to be anointed as the next President

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of the European Commission, much to the annoyance of David Cameron.

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But what will it mean for Britain's relationship with the EU?

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And, with young Britons heading to Iraq and Syria to fight alongside

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extremists, are we fighting the wrong battle

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Yes, an action-packed 90 minutes ahead of us which promises to be

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at least as exciting as England's 0-0 draw with Costa Rica.

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And we won't even pause for oranges at half time.

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With us today are two midfield generals of the political world:

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Owen Smith, Shadow Wales Secretary and

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First this morning let's turn our attention to

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The jury in the trial has returned to court this morning to consider

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more charges against former News of the World editor, Andy Coulson.

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Mr Coulson was found guilty yesterday

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The Prime Minister issued a profound apology for having hired Mr Coulson

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The former Chief Executive of News International, Rebekah Brooks, was

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For the latest let's speak to our correspondent, Robin Brant,

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who has been following the trial at the Old Bailey.

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He has been outside that Old Bailey court most of his life. Explain, the

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jury is coming back to consider what charges? Yes, they're in the room

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right now on the ninth day of deliberations. There are two remain

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counts on which they could not reach unanimous or majority verdicts

:03:03.:03:07.

yesterday. They're allegations of what is known as misconduct in a

:03:08.:03:15.

public office that is claims that Andy Coulson and Mr Goodman were

:03:16.:03:20.

involved in corrupt payments to police officers to buy numbers of

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people in the royal household. The prosecution said that happened in

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2003 and 2005. The jury couldn't reach a verdict yesterday and are

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continuing their deliberations today. Before they came back in,

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there was some legal argument. I'm restricted in what I can tell you

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about that. But I can tell you what the judge said to the jury as they

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sat in their seats. He apologise for keeping them waiting and reminded

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them he had talked about a wave of publicity that was about to hit them

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when they went home. You must ignore it, he said. Anything you saw or

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read does not matter who said it, but you must entirely ignore it. Now

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the Prime Minister made an apology yesterday, referring to Andy Coulson

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lying to him. Ed Milliband referred to Andy Coulson ooze a criminal. And

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the judge at some point in the day did urge restraint on anyone

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reacting to the verdicts here. These are partial verdicts. The trial is

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not over. And the judge is reminding the jury that whoever said

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something, whatever it is, they should ignore it. We will see, the

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jury will have to be superhuman to do that. Am I right in thinking the

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jury is divided orn these issues that have yet to be resolved, they

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could take some time before they come out with their verdict if they

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do come out with one, on the other charges? Yes. Speculating about the

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jury is not a sensible thing for somebody like me to do. But this

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trial will not be sitting tomorrow or the day after, because of a

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commitment of one of the jurors. If not today, they find themselves

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going into Monday and there may be some reluctance to do that. But they

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couldn't reach a unanimous verdict yesterday and couldn't reach a

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majority verdict either. So the deliberations continue today and we

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have been here for eight months and I don't think the judge or anyone

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will be in a hurry. Am I right anying when this is done and dusted,

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12 more trials on related matters are scheduled? The fact is this

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barely the start. This has been eight months here. The culmination

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of a police inquiry that began three and a half years ago looking at

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events that started in 1999. The first recorded hack by somebody

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working for the News of the World. What I can tell you this is just the

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start. There are two further sets of trials in relation to the hacking

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investigation which are scheduled to start after these proceedings and

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there are ongoing police investigations into further claims

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of hacking at the News of the World and at the Sunday Mirror and

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investigations into claims of computer hacking. So there are

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numerous people awaiting decisions from the Crown Prosecution Service

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about whether they will face any charges and people who didn't just

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work at the News of the World, but other organisations are involved as

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well. So the reality is and this is the reality, this is just the start.

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I hope that is a bed sit they're building behind you, it sounds like

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you will need it! Now we will talk more about the political

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significance of this with Nick Robinson before Prime Minister's

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questions. Now, David Cameron would probably

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not have chosen the city of Ypres in Belgium as the venue for the start

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of this week's European summit. 100 years ago it was the scene

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of fierce fighting between Allied In 2014 it appears David Cameron has

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been dealt a diplomatic blow by the German Chancellor Angela

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Merkel in his attempt to thwart the candidacy of Jean-Claude Juncker

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for the EU's top job. The summit will move to Brussels

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on Friday and David Cameron is determined to

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make other EU leaders vote on whether Mr Juncker should be the

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next president of the Commission. But what does this whole episode

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mean for Britain's relationship with the EU and Mr Cameron's much

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hyped renegotiation strategy? On Friday David Cameron will try to

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force a vote on the appointment of Mr Juncker

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which he says would politicise That's a fight he's unlikely to win

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and the European Parliament is expected to vote on Juncker's

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nomination in mid-July. In August each member state will

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put forward their nomination for Commissioner, but their portfolios

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won't be confirmed until the European Parliament votes on the

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Commission as a whole in October. If Cameron doesn't get his way

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on Juncker, Britain might expect concessions elsewhere on other big

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European issues - jobs for example, The Prime Minister will have to do

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better according to one The Polish foreign minister,

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Radoslaw Sikorski was secretly recorded this week slating the Prime

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Minister over incompetence in his And by the looks of it Mr Cameron's

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got a tough job. Details of the EU's strategic agenda

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were leaked this week and it doesn't make comfortable

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reading for those who want to Phrases such as developing

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"the freedom of movement of EU his case for staying in the

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European Union if there's Let's speak now to Peter Spiegel

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who's the Brussels bureau chief Welcome to the programme. What is

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going to happen at this summit in Brussels? It is a mystery a week or

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so ago. But now we know there will be a vote and Britain is going to go

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down in flames. They may have one ally in the Hungarian Prime

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Minister. But even he is is a controversial figure. There have

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been overtures from other countries from the Jean-Claude Juncker camp

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and from Herman van Rompuy, the European council president, to see

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if there is room for a bargain with Downing Street. They have been told

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that there is no room to bargain. David Cameron wants a vote and he

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wants it on record either for or against Jean-Claude Juncker and he

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is probably going to lose. So it is over for David Cameron, but what

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about Jean-Claude Juncker? What is he like? I think he has been

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mischaracterised by Downing Street as an old school federalist. He is

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very pragmatic and does want for Med Rallsism within the -- federalism

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within the eurozone, but Downing Street have pushed for that and

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George Osborne said about the logic of the eurozone coming together. I

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think that had Britain played their cards better with junk. He is from a

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-- better with junk. He is -- with Jean-Claude Juncker. Even ten years

:10:42.:10:45.

ago he was seen as a British ally. But as playing the card against him

:10:46.:10:50.

and briefing against him, they have created a political enemy and a man

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who will take the position at the top of a powerful institution has

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influence on legislation that will affect wherein and -- Britain and

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turned him into an enemy. What about the reports about Jean-Claude

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Juncker's drinking, are they fair? Well, look, his successor as head of

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the euro group of the Dutch finance minister, has said that he drinks

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heavily in meetings. I have talked to many other officials who have

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been in meetings from mid level officials to former finance

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ministers and they acknowledge this. Jean-Claude Juncker has said that he

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does haven't a drinking problem. But it has come up in conversations that

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this is an issue and has led to some meetings lasting well into the

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night. That said, again people I have talked to I have asked have you

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ever seen sit affect his judgment, they all claim no. So it is an

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issue. It is something that has come up in conversations I have had

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unprompted. But everyone I hearsay it is not an issue that has affected

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his judgment. So the question wlis other states will feel this is

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important. Let's look to the consequences. You have spelled out

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that David Cameron didn't play his hard well in terms of negotiations.

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What will that mean in his campaign to renegotiate powers back from

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Brussels to London and in terms of calling the shots on who might be

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commissioner? I think those are two different issues. On the

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commissioner, that could be trouble. That what is Jean-Claude Juncker has

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power to do. If Britain nominates the commissioner, but Jean-Claude

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Juncker can decide the portfolio. There are some states that get good

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portfolios and Britain has always got a top one. It would be a self

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inflicted one if Jean-Claude Juncker gave the British commissioner the

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multilingual portfolio. On renegotiation it is more complicated

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the commission does not have a role in that, it is the member states and

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the pivotal figure is Angela Merkel. And does Merkel owe Cameron for

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having turned on her? Thank you. We mope to speak to to Charles

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Kennedy soon. Priti Patel would it be too Machiavellian to describe

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euro sceptics might relish junk as head of O'-- Jean-Claude Juncker as

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head of commission. No, David Cameron said it was a matter of

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principle and that is the right to have the choice and the vote. But

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the important thing is it sends out a message to the public. We have had

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the European elections and it is ensuring the European institutions,

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the commission, the relative individuals that will be occupying

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the important positions, understand the sentiment in the United Kingdom

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now on all matters associated with the EU. Does it suggest the European

:14:08.:14:14.

elite will ignore public opinion. It lice your party have gone down in

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flames with Michael Foot deciding to choose Tony Benn. It is another

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example of poor judgment by the Prime Minister. He is isolated in

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Europe and will go down in flames. That doesn't mean he is wrong. Well,

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he is wrong to pick a fight that he won't win if the result for that is

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that we are less able to influence reform of the EU. It is for the

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British government to make its views known... I'm not going to tell you

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if Juncker would be a good president because I don't know him. Our view

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would be it for the commission to determine and for the member states

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to vote. The crucial thing is, we need a reforming commission. We need

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a commission in which Britain's voices heard... Does Labour have no

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opinion? You have no opinion, correct? It is European reform. Al

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Rapinier and is straightforward. We need a reformed European Union,

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Britain to be at the heart of that union... But you can't tell us who

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you think should be president of the commission? You are absolutely not,

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you are denying the public the chance to have a referendum. I

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didn't ask you of the Prime Minister's opinion, I was asking the

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opinion of your Eurosceptic backbenchers. I was suggesting they

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may be happy with Mr Juncker because they can depict him. That's a

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sweeping generalisation. You don't speak on behalf of myself or on the

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behalf of the Conservative Party. Excuse me, I asked the question, I'd

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like an answer. The point about the Conservative Party is that

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effectively, we want to make sure that Britain's voice is heard in the

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reform agenda and also off the back of the European elections. The

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public have spoken out. To the credit of the prime minister, he is

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calling for less Europe and more Britain, and that is where he has

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taken his principle stands. I think we have established contact with

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Charles Kennedy. Can you hear me all right? Just. My mother was half deaf

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so I've got a loud voice as a result of that! Why shouldn't Jean-Claude

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Juncker be president of the commission? Well, I think that the

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Juncker be president of the commission? Well, I think that issue

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that the British government are putting forward, both conservatives

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and ourselves as Liberal Democrats, although there are different views

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on Europe, it's that the ultimate decision on this position should be

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with the Council of decision on this position should be

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with the ministers or the heads of government, whilst taking into

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account the sentiment as expressed by the European Parliament. Although

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David Cameron has made a big thing about being anti this particular

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candidate, I think the thing that unites us more, the two parties, is

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the principal, leaving aside the individual candidacy, of the way you

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go about the actionable choice. What does John Claude Juncker stand for

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in go about the actionable choice. What

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does John Claude Juncker Europe that the Liberal Democrats don't stand

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for in Europe? -- Jean-Claude Juncker. I don't think there's

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anything particularly fundamental. Certainly if you take it from my

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vantage point, I'm here at the Council of Europe, a different

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European institution, we won't confuse the viewers with that one.

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We've just been debating European federalism in the Council of Europe

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this morning. The classic British dilemma is encapsulated in this

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debate, it could equally be the European Union. Federalism over here

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means power decentralised, devolved, closer to communities. In British

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politics and the British media, federalism means some kind of super

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centralised Europe superstate based on Brussels. The two are like ships

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passing in the night. This candidate, in standing for

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federalism, stands for continental federalism, he doesn't stand for the

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caricature of it that unfortunately disfigures British reporting and

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British politics. All that may be true, so I ask you again. What is

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the difference in the Lib Dem approach to Europe and Mr Juncker's

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approach? I think there is not a fundamental difference in terms of

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the long-term objective that he would subscribe to. I think the

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short-term obstacle, obviously, not dissimilar to other EU member states

:19:08.:19:12.

at the moment, if you look at the composition of the new European

:19:13.:19:16.

Parliament that is divided, it's got a very Eurosceptic presents now.

:19:17.:19:20.

We've got to be alert to taking people with us, which has been the

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big criticism not just of recent years but, frankly, the 30 years

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I've been in the House of Commons, that the elite, the pro-European

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elite politicians, civil servants, academics, industrialists and

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others, happened spent enough time explaining and persuading and have

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just assumed that it is a fringe element which Eurosceptics have or

:19:42.:19:47.

anti-Europe. That has come, to put it crudely, to buy this on the

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proverbial bomb. Sorry, let me interrupt you. Mr Juncker is part of

:19:59.:20:05.

the European elite. Your leader is part of the European elite. Mr

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Juncker believes in an ever closer union. The Lib Dems believe in an

:20:10.:20:13.

ever closer union. Mr Juncker believes in a particular kind of

:20:14.:20:17.

federalism that you've just said is the Lib Dem's kind of federalism.

:20:18.:20:21.

I'm struggling to find out what he stands for that you don't. I think

:20:22.:20:26.

Nick Clegg has made clear, and you are right that Nick is

:20:27.:20:31.

quintessential European elite in the Thameside been outlining, without

:20:32.:20:35.

doubt, family wise as well as political wise. I would have to

:20:36.:20:39.

plead guilty to that in a Celtic sense as well. The point that Nick

:20:40.:20:44.

has been at pains to stress is the methodology by which the candidate

:20:45.:20:51.

gains acceptance and he's not happy with that. I think the end

:20:52.:20:55.

objectives longer term that we espouse as British Liberal Democrats

:20:56.:21:01.

are pro-European, as this candidate would espouse and aspire towards,

:21:02.:21:06.

you are quite right. But I think we are a long way from that in

:21:07.:21:10.

Britain, and more time has got to be spent from the top of the European

:21:11.:21:14.

Commission on the persuasion elements, rather than just the big

:21:15.:21:18.

picture element. I think the worry is that this juncture, on the back

:21:19.:21:21.

of the European results we just had, on the back of all the difficulties

:21:22.:21:26.

that Europe is facing, particularly Britain's role within Europe, with a

:21:27.:21:29.

possible referendum on a couple of years time, that this would be

:21:30.:21:34.

trying to run before we could walk, in terms of the argument in domestic

:21:35.:21:38.

British politics. I think that is the difference in a nutshell. We

:21:39.:21:42.

will leave it there. Thanks for struggling through, I know it's been

:21:43.:21:51.

a bad audio connection. That may be popular or unpopular with the

:21:52.:21:53.

British people but it has the benefit of honesty. You know where

:21:54.:21:56.

the Lib Dems stand on this. We don't know where you stand on these

:21:57.:22:01.

matters. I don't think that's true at all. We don't think there is any

:22:02.:22:05.

point of us bellowing fruitlessly from the sidelines of Europe in

:22:06.:22:10.

particular playing to the gallery of Eurosceptics in the Tory party, if

:22:11.:22:14.

what we want, and we agree with the Conservatives, if what we want is

:22:15.:22:18.

reform of the European Union. If we want focus on jobs... Who would be

:22:19.:22:24.

the best reforming president? I don't think there is any point in my

:22:25.:22:29.

suggesting names. People will be amazed because you are pretty good

:22:30.:22:36.

at giving names for everybody else. I'm not asking you to speak for

:22:37.:22:40.

Wales. You are here to represent Labour. I'm asking for their view

:22:41.:22:45.

but you won't. Juncker might be a man who could give us reform, maybe

:22:46.:22:49.

somebody else. But at the moment, we are going to be further isolated and

:22:50.:22:55.

less able to implement a reform agenda. Doesn't get as far. What I

:22:56.:23:00.

want to ask you is, is there any chance you think you could convince

:23:01.:23:04.

the Lib Dems to agree with you on an in-out referendum? That I don't

:23:05.:23:09.

know, to be perfectly frank and honest. There's been talk Mr Clegg

:23:10.:23:15.

might be moving that way. Possibly discussions are taking place on

:23:16.:23:18.

that, I'm sure that the something they will be discussing. The reality

:23:19.:23:22.

is, irrespective of our political parties, is that the British public

:23:23.:23:25.

at large are taking place on that, I'm sure that the something they

:23:26.:23:28.

will be discussing. The reality is, irrespective of our political

:23:29.:23:30.

parties, is that the British public at large I think they do look to

:23:31.:23:33.

politicians now to get a backbone and say, enough is enough, and stand

:23:34.:23:36.

up for Britain in Europe. The problem we have had over the last

:23:37.:23:40.

decade, over a decade, is that they have seen the British political

:23:41.:23:44.

elite say, actually, we know best, we will make all the decisions and

:23:45.:23:48.

not pick the rounds with the European Union. It is an important

:23:49.:23:52.

voice, an important principle in terms of the point we making. Ikea

:23:53.:23:58.

what you are saying. Is there any chance that Labour, before the

:23:59.:24:04.

election, may come out for an in-out referendum on membership? No, I

:24:05.:24:09.

think our position is clear. I don't see why we should change that. That

:24:10.:24:18.

was on behalf of the Labour Party, Wales and the Labour Party.

:24:19.:24:19.

Synonymous, as you know. Now, if you're an England football

:24:20.:24:23.

fan you may be feeling slightly dejected this morning

:24:24.:24:26.

as you watch Roy Hodgson and his bunch of losers board their plane in

:24:27.:24:28.

Rio ready for the long flight home. Try as they might, they couldn't

:24:29.:24:32.

get their hands on the Cup that Still, at least they'll have plenty

:24:33.:24:35.

of time to watch the Daily Politics. And no one told them they didn't

:24:36.:24:39.

have to go all the way to Brazil to get the cup

:24:40.:24:48.

everyone wants - they just had to know their political history and

:24:49.:24:52.

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:24:53.:24:56.

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:24:57.:25:01.

in celebration, knowing you've We'll remind you how to enter

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in a minute, but let's see if you # I'm just a soul whose intentions

:25:06.:25:42.

are good. I do solemnly swear that you will

:25:43.:25:50.

faithfully execute. # People try to put us down, talking

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about my generation. # I'm a man of means by no means.

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# King of the road. # The minute you're gone I cried.

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# The minute you're gone I die. # Keep on running.

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:26:31.:26:36.

# One fine day I'm going to be the one to make you understand.

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a Daily Politics mug, send your answer to our special quiz email

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and conditions for Guess The Year on our website - that's

:26:59.:27:01.

bbc.co.uk/ dailypolitics. It's coming up to midday here,

:27:02.:27:08.

just take a look at Big Ben, Yes, Prime Minister's

:27:09.:27:11.

Questions is on its way. Nick Robinson is already here. The

:27:12.:27:22.

Prime Minister said he would have to make a full apology if Mr Coulson

:27:23.:27:25.

went down on the hacking charge, he's been found guilty of that. He

:27:26.:27:31.

did it, but it's not the end of the story. It isn't. It will be

:27:32.:27:35.

interesting to see whether he repeats that and where Ed Miliband

:27:36.:27:38.

pushes him. There is speculation about whether they would be allowed

:27:39.:27:41.

to, because the speaker has been taking legal advice on what can and

:27:42.:27:48.

can't be said. The court case is still ongoing, there are still

:27:49.:27:50.

charges on which the jury had not decided on their verdict. A few

:27:51.:27:54.

minutes ago, we got the speaker's advice on that. People are allowed

:27:55.:27:58.

to reflect calls and has been convicted, they are not allowed to

:27:59.:28:01.

speculate on what the sentence might be and they certainly can't refer to

:28:02.:28:06.

the cases that I yet unsettled. I think Ed Miliband can pretty much

:28:07.:28:10.

ask everything he wanted to ask because his target is not Andy

:28:11.:28:14.

Coulson, his target is David Cameron. The target there is, why

:28:15.:28:19.

did you appoint this man, didn't you know at the time that they could be

:28:20.:28:24.

problems going down the road? People have seen it is significant that he

:28:25.:28:28.

didn't go what is called a developed vetting process that others had gone

:28:29.:28:33.

through. Why did he not go down that road, why was he not given that

:28:34.:28:40.

betting? Secondly, would it have found out anything? Good question.

:28:41.:28:44.

The Prime Minister has repeated the line that the decision on what level

:28:45.:28:48.

of vetting, and people do get different levels, was taken up by

:28:49.:28:52.

the politicians and by the civil servants. Labour have always

:28:53.:28:56.

regarded it and the Bardi Anne have always regarded it as pretty

:28:57.:29:00.

suspicious because other people did have the top level of vetting but

:29:01.:29:04.

Coulson did not. Gus O'Donnell used to be the top civil servant in the

:29:05.:29:08.

land and he told the inquiry that this was basically his decision. He

:29:09.:29:11.

argued he was avoiding wasting money, it was time-consuming. The

:29:12.:29:18.

civil servants don't want to block somebody an incoming Prime Minister

:29:19.:29:21.

is going to happen if they've got a good reason to do so. It was known

:29:22.:29:25.

that Andy Coulson was involved in controversy, this was not something

:29:26.:29:29.

that required some spook to discover, it was out there in the

:29:30.:29:33.

public domain. So why go through a process that is going to produce an

:29:34.:29:36.

answer that the Prime Minister might not like? Would it have got the

:29:37.:29:40.

answer... It couldn't have revealed the hacking, because it took a

:29:41.:29:44.

police investigation to do that. It might have revealed other questions

:29:45.:29:48.

about Mr Coulson. Labour's argument is likely to be, at least it would

:29:49.:29:52.

have given you the opportunity to investigate some of these things.

:29:53.:29:56.

The Prime Minister has said he gave someone a second chance and it

:29:57.:29:59.

didn't work out. Isn't the weakest part of his argument is that there

:30:00.:30:04.

were a number of people at the time who warned him this was not a

:30:05.:30:09.

sensible road to go down? One moment is hiring him in the first place. He

:30:10.:30:12.

could then say, whether you think it's wise or not, look, there was

:30:13.:30:17.

one case, one rogue reporter, I gave him a second chance. I don't think

:30:18.:30:22.

Cameron is in real difficulty on that. Where he is in difficulty is

:30:23.:30:29.

giving a taxpayer-funded job... After the front page of the

:30:30.:30:32.

Guardian, after the front page of the New York Times, after it has

:30:33.:30:36.

been revealed it is clearly not one rogue reporter, this is widespread

:30:37.:30:41.

hacking going on. It's at that point that people are entitled to say, and

:30:42.:30:44.

senior Conservatives at the time did, the people who went into the

:30:45.:30:48.

coalition with David Cameron did and clearly, the Labour Party did, to

:30:49.:30:53.

say, you know, we can't prove his guilt, we don't know that, but this

:30:54.:30:57.

is not a sensible appointment. Underlining all this, and I'm sure

:30:58.:31:01.

Ed Miliband will want to get onto this, is motive. Was this because

:31:02.:31:05.

Andy Coulson was a friend, was it because he was good at his job? Both

:31:06.:31:10.

things are true, or was because he was scared of falling out with the

:31:11.:31:13.

Murdoch empire. There was a sense that this was a link that had been

:31:14.:31:16.

formed with the most powerful media organisation the land, you don't

:31:17.:31:21.

want to let it go. He was appointed in the summer of 2007, but it looked

:31:22.:31:26.

like Gordon Brown could walk on water and the primacy panicked. The

:31:27.:31:31.

leader of the opposition. He had panicked. He had said to begin with

:31:32.:31:36.

you wouldn't touch the Murdoch press. He then didn't even have any

:31:37.:31:39.

friends in the Tory press. He panicked and went for Mr Coulson and

:31:40.:31:45.

began to suck up to Mr Murdoch. Exactly that. He took one view, it

:31:46.:31:49.

wasn't working for him, he feared defeat. We were talking about a snap

:31:50.:31:57.

election. At that stage exactly right, Andrew. It's all right this

:31:58.:32:01.

principle of not being in with the press, but you need them. He hired

:32:02.:32:05.

Andy Coulson like a shot when he became available, having resigned

:32:06.:32:09.

from the News of the World. He then did take the view that he performed

:32:10.:32:12.

his job well, he was trustworthy, he was a friend, the civil servants

:32:13.:32:16.

regarded him and were much more comfortable with than Alistair

:32:17.:32:17.

Campbell. I shall have further such meetings

:32:18.:32:39.

today. Andy Coulson 's conviction shows that the Parliamentary inquiry

:32:40.:32:41.

today. Andy Coulson 's conviction shows that the Parliamentary into

:32:42.:32:45.

phone hacking was consistently misled by him and others. Does the

:32:46.:32:51.

Prime Minister agree with me that our first concern should be to see

:32:52.:32:55.

redress for the victims of phone hacking and to uphold the democratic

:32:56.:33:00.

principle of a free press? I think my honourable friend is right, the

:33:01.:33:04.

first thing is we should remember the victims. People whoed that their

:33:05.:33:10.

privacy wrecked and ensure that cannot happen again. And we must

:33:11.:33:15.

cherish a free and vibrant press. I said yesterday and I say again, I

:33:16.:33:19.

take full responsibility for employing Andy Coulson. I did so on

:33:20.:33:23.

the basis of assurances that I received, but also the Select

:33:24.:33:28.

Committee received. I said if the assurances were wrong, I would

:33:29.:33:32.

apologise fully and frankly to this House and I do so again today from

:33:33.:33:38.

this dispatch box. I am sorry. This was the wrong decision. But I can it

:33:39.:33:44.

-- but I think it is right we have had a public inquiry and proper

:33:45.:33:48.

investigations. Yesterday showed that no one is above the law in our

:33:49.:34:01.

country. THE SPEAKER: Ed Milliband. Today we know that for four year the

:34:02.:34:06.

Prime Minister's hand picked closest adviceor was a criminal. And brought

:34:07.:34:12.

disgrace to Downing Street. We now also know that the Prime Minister

:34:13.:34:17.

willfully ignored multiple warnings about him. On the 8th July 2009, the

:34:18.:34:24.

Guardian published evidence of phone hacking on an industrial scale while

:34:25.:34:28.

Andy Coulson was editor of the News of the World. At that time, Andy

:34:29.:34:34.

Coulson was his director or of communication. What action did he

:34:35.:34:40.

take? As I said, the assurances I sought and received were the same

:34:41.:34:45.

assurances received by the Press Complaints Commission, by the Select

:34:46.:34:51.

Committee and the police. They were all gone into by the Leveson inquiry

:34:52.:35:00.

and an inquiry he supported. He talks about warnings. On the warning

:35:01.:35:04.

from the Guardian, Leveson said this, the editor of the Guardian did

:35:05.:35:09.

not raise the issue with David Cameron at meetings in the month

:35:10.:35:13.

after the article was published and the following year. He says this,

:35:14.:35:20.

there can be no criticism of David Cameron for not raising the issue.

:35:21.:35:26.

We had an exhaustive inquiry. I know he didn't like the result

:35:27.:35:29.

We had an exhaustive inquiry. I know inquiry, but he should accept it. Mr

:35:30.:35:35.

Speaker, that is a long-winded of saying when it came to Andy Coulson

:35:36.:35:40.

he just didn't want to know the evidence. The first warning ignored.

:35:41.:35:48.

Let's move on the to May 2010. The Deputy Prime Minister warned him in

:35:49.:35:54.

person about his deep concerns about Andy Coulson. So he was warned by

:35:55.:36:00.

his deputy. What action did he take? Every single one of these issues was

:36:01.:36:06.

dealt with by the Leveson inquiry. THE SPEAKER: Order. Mr Lucas, calm

:36:07.:36:13.

yourself. I'm trying to offer you on a weekly basis their pew tick

:36:14.:36:18.

guidance. But there is a long way to go. -- therapeutic. Every issue was

:36:19.:36:25.

dealt with by the Leveson inquiry. The terms of reference of the

:36:26.:36:30.

inquiry were agreed by the honourable gentleman and they

:36:31.:36:35.

included, the extent to which there was a failure to act on previous

:36:36.:36:39.

warnings about media misconduct. That is what Leveson looked into. He

:36:40.:36:43.

looked into all of these questions about the warnings I was given and

:36:44.:36:48.

the response I gave and he made no criticism of my conduct. I know that

:36:49.:36:53.

the honourable gentleman was disappointed by the Leveson inquiry,

:36:54.:36:58.

but he called for it and it took place and he should heed what it

:36:59.:37:05.

said. No, Mr Speaker. This is about his character, his judgment, and the

:37:06.:37:10.

warnings he ignored, including from the Deputy Prime Minister. Warning

:37:11.:37:16.

two ignored. In September 2010, the New York Times published a

:37:17.:37:21.

front-page investigation detailing Andy Coulson's knowledge of phone

:37:22.:37:25.

hacking, including one former editor who said I have been to dozens of

:37:26.:37:29.

meetings with Andy when the subject came up. What action did he take?

:37:30.:37:36.

All of these issues, every warning, was dealt with by Leveson. An

:37:37.:37:42.

inquiry he called for. And I know he can't bear it, but Leveson made no

:37:43.:37:48.

criticism of my conduct in this regard whatsoever. You cannot call

:37:49.:37:53.

for a judge-led inquiry, participate in a judge-led inquiry, write the

:37:54.:37:57.

terms of reference of the inquiry and then ignore what it has to say.

:37:58.:38:03.

I have to say, all of the questions he is rising are not new. They're

:38:04.:38:09.

the questions dealt with by the Leveson I inquiry. THE SPEAKER: The

:38:10.:38:13.

Prime Minister is offering an answer and it must be heard. Order. It must

:38:14.:38:20.

be heard by the House. Both sides must be heard by the House and that

:38:21.:38:26.

will happen, as it always does, however long this has to be run.

:38:27.:38:30.

About that let us be clear. The Prime Minister. I can understand why

:38:31.:38:36.

he doesn't want to listen to an eight-month long inquiry that cost

:38:37.:38:40.

?5 million that interviewed people under oath that was led by a judge,

:38:41.:38:44.

but that what is he asked for and that is what is delivered and did

:38:45.:38:51.

not criticise my conduct. So he should accept the inquiry that he

:38:52.:39:01.

supported. No answer... No answer on any of the questions. No answer why

:39:02.:39:06.

he didn't act on the Guardian or on the Deputy Prime Minister no, answer

:39:07.:39:10.

why he didn't act on the New York Times. Let's come back to issue of

:39:11.:39:17.

vetting. Amidst the warnings, the least he should... THE SPEAKER:

:39:18.:39:22.

Order. There is the usual ranting from the usual suspects. Be quiet or

:39:23.:39:28.

if you can't be quiet, leave the chamber. We can manage without you.

:39:29.:39:35.

Ed Milliband. Let's come to vetting. Amid the warnings the least he

:39:36.:39:40.

should have done is insisted that Andy Coulson should have the highest

:39:41.:39:47.

level of security vetting, as his six predecessors over 14 years had

:39:48.:39:51.

had. Why tint he -- why didn't he insist on it. Leveson looked into

:39:52.:40:00.

this issue. This what is he found. This is what he found. Leveson

:40:01.:40:07.

conclubtded -- concluded this, the level of security clearance was not

:40:08.:40:13.

the decision of Mr Cameron or Mr Cowlson, but the decision of the

:40:14.:40:21.

civil service. Those are the correct procedures. Those are the correct

:40:22.:40:30.

procedures. But if the leader of the opposition's contention is that

:40:31.:40:33.

direct vetting would have got to the bottom of Andy Coulson's conduct at

:40:34.:40:38.

the News of the World, then he should be clear about what Leveson

:40:39.:40:46.

found. He found this. The process of considering Andy Coulson for DV

:40:47.:40:51.

status would not have involved a detailed investigation of phone

:40:52.:40:56.

hacking at the News of the World. That undermined the entire case that

:40:57.:41:00.

Labour have been trying to make today. I know you don't agree with

:41:01.:41:05.

it. I know he is so desperate not to talk about the economy, not to talk

:41:06.:41:10.

about unemployment, not to talk about the deficit, but you can't

:41:11.:41:14.

rerun an inquiry that has already taken place. Now it is clear from

:41:15.:41:25.

the Prime Minister, I will tell tell them what is weak, it is failing to

:41:26.:41:31.

stand up for the Rhining things -- the right things. We know the rule

:41:32.:41:34.

of the Prime Minister is the buck doesn't stop here and he blames the

:41:35.:41:40.

civil service. Now, on the civil service, can he assure... THE

:41:41.:41:47.

SPEAKER: Sometimes one has to repeat a thing. If there is quiet. We will

:41:48.:41:52.

continue. If people try to shout other people down, against the

:41:53.:41:55.

principles of British democracy, they will be stopped in their

:41:56.:41:59.

tracks. It is very simple and I would have thought pretty clear. Ed

:42:00.:42:04.

Milliband. On the civil service can he assure the House at no time does

:42:05.:42:12.

Sir Gus O'Donnell or any senior servant raise concerns about hiring

:42:13.:42:17.

Andy Coulson. Gus O'Donnell has made that clear in the evidence to the

:42:18.:42:22.

inquiry and on the issue of vetting, he was clear that the decision about

:42:23.:42:27.

vetting is for permanent Secretary at No 10, sur Jeremy Haywood, who

:42:28.:42:35.

served Labour governments as well as coalition governments led by a

:42:36.:42:37.

Conservative Prime Minister. What the honourable gentleman is trying

:42:38.:42:41.

to do is go through all of the old questions that were answered by the

:42:42.:42:47.

Leveson inquiry, he didn't like the answer, because he wanted to prove

:42:48.:42:52.

some cooked up conspiracy between the Conservatives and News of the

:42:53.:42:57.

World. He cannot manage to do it because the Leveson inquiry cannot

:42:58.:43:02.

find it. He asked what is weak. I will tell you what is weak,

:43:03.:43:06.

attacking Murdoch and standing up with a copy of the Sun, only to

:43:07.:43:13.

apologise a dpu hours later -- a few hours later. Mr Speaker, the Prime

:43:14.:43:29.

Minister said that Sir Gus O'Donnell was asked whether he raised concerns

:43:30.:43:32.

with him or his office about Andy Coulson. He was not asked that

:43:33.:43:37.

question at the Leveson inquiry. There is an important question which

:43:38.:43:46.

the country will won't answered whether senior civil servants raised

:43:47.:43:51.

concerns about Andy Coulson. The truth is the charge against the

:43:52.:43:58.

Prime Minister is not one of ignorance, but wilful negligence. At

:43:59.:44:04.

the heart of this are the thousands of innocent victims of phone hacking

:44:05.:44:07.

he didn't stand up. He will be remembered as the first occupant of

:44:08.:44:12.

his office who brought a criminal into the heart of Downing Street. He

:44:13.:44:19.

brought up the issue of the warning from the Guardian. I disproved him

:44:20.:44:24.

using the evidence. He brought up the idea of direct vetting, I have

:44:25.:44:29.

disproved him by using the evidence. He cannot bear the the fact that the

:44:30.:44:34.

inquiry he hoped would pin the blame on me found that I had behaved

:44:35.:44:40.

correctly. That is the case. All of the issues were examined, all the

:44:41.:44:47.

issues were examined by Leveson. If he wants to debate the calls we make

:44:48.:44:54.

and the leadership we give, it is that that I'm happy to do. It is

:44:55.:44:59.

leadership that has got the economy moving and is putting Britain back

:45:00.:45:05.

to work. And it is the total absence of leadership from the Labour Party

:45:06.:45:08.

that shows they have nothing to say about

:45:09.:45:36.

After many months of vehement anti-Iranian rhetoric from the

:45:37.:45:46.

government and now the sudden change of heart, does the Prime Minister

:45:47.:45:52.

believed that the maxim, my enemy's enemy is my friend, trumps all else?

:45:53.:45:58.

I don't believe that. We should judge every regime and organisation

:45:59.:46:01.

on its commitment to human rights, the rule of law and building a

:46:02.:46:05.

realistic societies. We should engage with the Iranians but, as

:46:06.:46:10.

I've said, with a very clear eye and a hard heart. We shouldn't forget

:46:11.:46:13.

what happened to our embassy, we shouldn't forget the things they are

:46:14.:46:17.

responsible for around the world, but we should start to build a

:46:18.:46:20.

dialogue with them in the way the Foreign Secretary has set out. On

:46:21.:46:27.

Friday, my honourable friend the member for South Basildon, East

:46:28.:46:33.

Thurrock and myself jumped from a plane, 13,000 feet over the

:46:34.:46:38.

Yorkshire countryside. Fortunately we had a parachute. And training

:46:39.:46:46.

from the Tiger Army parachute display team. As we approach Armed

:46:47.:46:51.

Forces Day, will the Prime Minister paid tribute to our Armed Forces and

:46:52.:46:58.

those charities and the generosity of the British people, who do so

:46:59.:47:03.

much to support those who give such commitment to Queen and country, and

:47:04.:47:08.

will he reinforce the fact that this Parliament will never ever under

:47:09.:47:11.

estimate the contribution of the Armed Forces of this country? I

:47:12.:47:16.

absolutely support what he has said and commend him for jumping out of

:47:17.:47:21.

an aeroplane with a parachute. Not only should we commend our Armed

:47:22.:47:25.

Forces, but it's right that we put the Armed Forces common and --

:47:26.:47:28.

covenant, the military covenant, into the law of the land. I think

:47:29.:47:33.

Armed Forces Day is an important part of our calendar. On remembrance

:47:34.:47:37.

Sunday we remember those who have served and fallen. In Armed Forces

:47:38.:47:40.

Day it is an opportunity to celebrate all of those who served

:47:41.:47:43.

today, thank them and their families, to celebrate the values

:47:44.:47:46.

they live by and all that they bring to our country. Does the Prime

:47:47.:47:51.

Minister realise he has made history by employing a crook at Number Ten?

:47:52.:47:59.

I've given a very full answer to this. Obviously, I regret the

:48:00.:48:03.

decision to employ Andy Coulson on the basis of the assurances I was

:48:04.:48:07.

given. But what I would say is no one made any complaints about the

:48:08.:48:13.

conduct of Andy Coulson why'd he was at Number Ten. And that does stand

:48:14.:48:17.

in quite a contrast to the conduct of Damian McBride, the conduct of

:48:18.:48:24.

Joe Moore, to the conduct of Alistair Campbell. What we had from

:48:25.:48:28.

the previous government was dodgy dossiers, burying bad news and

:48:29.:48:37.

smearing Members of Parliament. The firefighters dispute continues with

:48:38.:48:41.

some worrying consequences and no sign at present of a resolution. But

:48:42.:48:48.

back before Easter, DC LG ministers got the government actuaries to cost

:48:49.:48:51.

a set of proposals that the Fire Brigades Union was ready to put to

:48:52.:48:55.

its members. Will the Prime Minister look at that proposal even now and

:48:56.:48:58.

consider whether it might still have some useful part to play in bringing

:48:59.:49:04.

an end to this dispute? I'm very happy to look at what he suggests. I

:49:05.:49:09.

know that the minister in the local government department, the

:49:10.:49:11.

honourable member for great Yarmouth, has been working extremely

:49:12.:49:14.

hard on this issue. It's important we listen to what the firefighters

:49:15.:49:20.

say but, at the same time, recognise that the pensions they have access

:49:21.:49:25.

to would actually require the building of a ?500,000 pot for

:49:26.:49:28.

anyone else in our country. We should bear that in mind and the

:49:29.:49:31.

contribution of the taxpayer at the same time. Does the prime Minister

:49:32.:49:40.

accept that his death at 60 proves that Gerry Conlon lost more than 15

:49:41.:49:44.

terrible years in prison and the anguish of his father's torment, due

:49:45.:49:52.

to the injustice from this state? As well as his wider campaigning

:49:53.:49:56.

against injustice, there were two particular issues that matter to him

:49:57.:50:02.

in recent years. One is the need for proper quality mental health

:50:03.:50:06.

services for those who suffered miscarriages of justice. Secondly,

:50:07.:50:09.

which in particular I would like the Prime Minister to address,

:50:10.:50:12.

notwithstanding the egregious subdivide your seal that has been

:50:13.:50:15.

put on the Guildford and other papers, he was recently promised

:50:16.:50:21.

access to the archives. It was his dying wish that that would be

:50:22.:50:26.

honoured through the people he wanted... Will he ensure that the

:50:27.:50:30.

dying wish of an innocent man is honoured? I'm grateful to him for

:50:31.:50:35.

raising wish and the way in which he does it, it's hard to think what 15

:50:36.:50:38.

years in prison when you are innocent of a crime that you've been

:50:39.:50:43.

convicted for would do to somebody. I think it is absolutely right that

:50:44.:50:46.

the previous prime Minister apologises fulsome, as he did when

:50:47.:50:52.

this came to pass. I'm very happy to look at the specific request about

:50:53.:50:55.

the records at the specific request about the record that queue, which

:50:56.:50:58.

hasn't been put to me before, and contact the honourable gentleman

:50:59.:51:03.

about that issue. And employment in North Northamptonshire is down by a

:51:04.:51:10.

third. Last week, this conservative led government approved the Rushden

:51:11.:51:16.

Lakes development. 2000 new jobs, major retail park and a fantastic

:51:17.:51:21.

leisure facility. Could the prime Minister explain how we have that

:51:22.:51:25.

success? Could be down to his long-term economic plan? I'm

:51:26.:51:32.

grateful to him for detailing what is happening in Northamptonshire, in

:51:33.:51:35.

terms of the extra jobs and development. I think what it proves

:51:36.:51:40.

is we do have an entrepreneurial economy, particularly in

:51:41.:51:43.

Northamptonshire, but we do need key developments to go ahead to help

:51:44.:51:46.

unlock the jobs, growth and investment we need for our country.

:51:47.:51:59.

The Prime Minister said yesterday that he was just giving Andy calls

:52:00.:52:02.

and a second chance. That means that he knew there was a first offence.

:52:03.:52:06.

He knew from the very beginning that he was taking a criminal into

:52:07.:52:10.

Downing Street. Then he refused to sack him and yesterday, and again

:52:11.:52:14.

today, he was busy praising Andy Coulson. What message does that send

:52:15.:52:18.

to the victims? Isn't the truth of the matter that he is only sorry

:52:19.:52:25.

because he got caught? The honourable gentleman has got it

:52:26.:52:34.

wrong time and time again. What I said about giving someone a second

:52:35.:52:38.

chance is because the individual in question had resigned as the editor

:52:39.:52:42.

of the News of the World because of what had happened. He said in this

:52:43.:52:45.

House of Commons, there was no doubt there was a deal secured between the

:52:46.:52:50.

Conservative Party and News International before the general

:52:51.:52:52.

election. That is what he said, after eight months of an inquiry,

:52:53.:52:56.

that was found to be complete and utter rubbish. And yet have we ever

:52:57.:53:04.

heard one word of reduction from the honourable gentleman? Not a word!

:53:05.:53:10.

May I congratulate my right honourable friend on his judgment

:53:11.:53:14.

and resolution in standing up for Britain's national interest over the

:53:15.:53:17.

question of the presidency of the EU commission. And can I put it to him

:53:18.:53:25.

that he is in June with the concerns of the public right across Europe,

:53:26.:53:30.

unlike so many of our continental partners? It's important to stand up

:53:31.:53:37.

and speak for what you believe in. I believe that the European Commission

:53:38.:53:40.

president should be chosen by the elected heads of government and

:53:41.:53:44.

state on the European Council. That is the right approach. It is wrong

:53:45.:53:48.

to sign up to this power grab by the parties of Europe and the European

:53:49.:53:53.

Parliament. I also think it's important that the people involved

:53:54.:53:55.

understand that we need reform in Europe. It doesn't matter how hard I

:53:56.:53:59.

have to push this case, I will take it all the way to the end. Mr

:54:00.:54:06.

Speaker, they have been to breakfast with Boris, had tea at Number Ten

:54:07.:54:11.

and are dancing with the Business Secretary, but still businesses in

:54:12.:54:15.

Shoreditch and the city cannot get superfast broadband. This is now a

:54:16.:54:20.

national embarrassment. What is the prime minister going to do? We have

:54:21.:54:25.

put a huge amount of money into expanding superfast broadband. We

:54:26.:54:28.

are now doing better than other European countries in terms of the

:54:29.:54:33.

roll-out of our network and the speeds that are available. The

:54:34.:54:42.

culture secretary is working very hard to deal with those areas of the

:54:43.:54:44.

country that don't have superfast broadband. I will make sure he puts

:54:45.:54:47.

Hackney firmly on his list. The Prime Minister recruited Andy

:54:48.:54:51.

Coulson in 2007. In 2009, Nick Davies from the Guardian came to the

:54:52.:54:54.

select committee and said, I have never seen a piece of paper that

:54:55.:54:57.

directly links Andy Coulson to any of the activity we are discussing.

:54:58.:55:02.

In February 2010, the select committee on which I serve concluded

:55:03.:55:06.

with all party support, we have seen no evidence that Andy Coulson you

:55:07.:55:10.

that phone hacking was taking place. Would the Prime Minister agree with

:55:11.:55:13.

me that those who now claim they knew he was in 2007, which seems to

:55:14.:55:18.

include the leader of the opposition, should explain why they

:55:19.:55:21.

didn't pass that information on to the police or the select committee,

:55:22.:55:25.

or are they trying to rewrite history to deflect attention from

:55:26.:55:28.

their own chronic leadership shortcomings? I think my honourable

:55:29.:55:37.

friend put it rather better than I did! Thank you. I'm sure the Prime

:55:38.:55:49.

Minister and the whole house will join with me in welcoming a very

:55:50.:55:55.

successful visit by Her Majesty the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh to

:55:56.:55:59.

Northern Ireland this week. Will the Prime Minister also join with me in

:56:00.:56:06.

condemning Sinn Fein's foolish approach to welfare reform, which is

:56:07.:56:13.

not protecting the vulnerable in Northern Ireland, but is costing the

:56:14.:56:17.

Northern Ireland executive ?5 million per month in fines. I agree

:56:18.:56:25.

with the honourable gentleman on both counts. As ever, the Queen Roz

:56:26.:56:30.

visit to Northern Ireland has been a huge success and has highlighted the

:56:31.:56:33.

economic renaissance that is taking place, with over 800 foreign

:56:34.:56:37.

investors, Northern Ireland is now one of the top UK destinations for

:56:38.:56:42.

investment. I'm extremely jealous of her Majesty being able to step on

:56:43.:56:48.

the iron Throne and meet cast of Game Of Thrones, one of the most

:56:49.:56:53.

successful productions anywhere in the world, hosted in Northern

:56:54.:56:56.

Ireland. He's also right about welfare reform. The point of welfare

:56:57.:56:59.

reform is to help people get back to work, rather than just cut budgets.

:57:00.:57:03.

We need to explain to all the parties in Northern Ireland that we

:57:04.:57:06.

should be engaging in welfare reform to help people get back to work. On

:57:07.:57:11.

this side of the House we have a long-term economic plan. With

:57:12.:57:19.

education funding at its heart, which was seen in the enhanced 206

:57:20.:57:23.

to ?9 per pupil funding that all schools in Northumberland will

:57:24.:57:27.

receive next April. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that we need

:57:28.:57:30.

to continue that progress on education funding, so that as the

:57:31.:57:34.

plan takes effect we will get fairer funding for all the schools in this

:57:35.:57:40.

country? I Honourable friend is right. Education and better schools

:57:41.:57:43.

and skills are absolutely at the heart of our long-term economic

:57:44.:57:48.

plan. You should note that we are spending ?18 billion on school

:57:49.:57:50.

buildings in this Parliament, which is more than Labour spent in their

:57:51.:57:55.

first two terms combined, but specifically on the issue of a fair

:57:56.:57:58.

national funding formula, we have made some progress by allocating

:57:59.:58:04.

?350 million to the least fairly funded Local Authorities, and that

:58:05.:58:07.

will make a real difference in the coming year. On Monday morning,

:58:08.:58:15.

getting the train to London, I joined a picket line with the PCS

:58:16.:58:23.

trade union, protesting against closures of HMRC offices in Dundee

:58:24.:58:28.

and protecting our terms and conditions. But their main concern

:58:29.:58:33.

was they felt there was eight Government plan for privatisation of

:58:34.:58:38.

HMRC. Could the Prime Minister assure those members that they are

:58:39.:58:43.

no such plans under his watch? The plan we have four HMRC is to make it

:58:44.:58:47.

more efficient and more effective, at collecting taxes from people who

:58:48.:58:50.

should be paying them. That's the plan. On Sunday, 17-year-old James

:58:51.:58:59.

good ship tragically drowned at a lake in my constituency. His death

:59:00.:59:05.

has left his family, friends and the local community in shock. As this

:59:06.:59:09.

week is drowning prevention week, what can the Prime Minister do to

:59:10.:59:13.

raise awareness of the dangers of open water and improve water

:59:14.:59:16.

safety, particularly during such a warm summer that we are having at

:59:17.:59:22.

the moment? My heart goes out to the family that he mentions. He is right

:59:23.:59:26.

to raise this issue. For anyone to lose a son, and blues won in such a

:59:27.:59:30.

tragic way as this, is heartbreaking. We do need to spread

:59:31.:59:34.

better in the nation about the dangers of swimming in open water.

:59:35.:59:38.

We need to do more to teach swimming in schools and life-saving skills. I

:59:39.:59:42.

also think the heroism bill we are bringing forward, that will help

:59:43.:59:45.

people who want to do good and rescue people, will also, in a small

:59:46.:59:51.

way, helped as well. Hundreds of young British men and some women are

:59:52.:59:55.

now fighting in Syria and now with ISIS in Iraq. Some of them will come

:59:56.:00:01.

back to the UK trained, radicalised and ready to attack. Our prevent

:00:02.:00:06.

programme has been cut by ?70 million and the funding for local

:00:07.:00:10.

authorities to do the essential long-term community work is all but

:00:11.:00:13.

disappeared. We'll be Prime Minister undertake an urgent review of the

:00:14.:00:17.

strategy to make sure we have the plans and the resources to protect

:00:18.:00:20.

our young people from the extremists? I have great respect for

:00:21.:00:26.

the right honourable lady on this issue because she has always spoken

:00:27.:00:30.

clearly about the need to confront not just violent extremism but all

:00:31.:00:33.

forms of extremism. What we have done in this Government is to make

:00:34.:00:38.

sure the Prevent Programmers properly focused and works in a way

:00:39.:00:42.

that you are targeting those most at risk of being radicalised. We need

:00:43.:00:47.

to make sure we shift resources in our intelligence, security and

:00:48.:00:50.

policing services, to target those who are potentially returning from

:00:51.:00:55.

Syria or Iraq. We have made a large tub of arrests, we have confiscated

:00:56.:00:58.

passports, we have taken all the action necessary to keep our country

:00:59.:01:09.

safe. Julius House, a wonderful hospice in my constituency, is

:01:10.:01:12.

currently carrying out research with Bournemouth University into the

:01:13.:01:16.

impact of short breaks on family relationships. We'll be Prime

:01:17.:01:20.

Minister give higher priority to the funding of short breaks as an invest

:01:21.:01:27.

to save measure? I agree on this issue. Anyone bringing up a severely

:01:28.:01:31.

disabled child knows that when you find one of these hospices, and I

:01:32.:01:35.

will never forget finding Helen house in Oxford, which was the first

:01:36.:01:38.

children's hospice anywhere in the country, that it was a complete

:01:39.:01:42.

life-saver for families and carries out brilliant work. That is why we

:01:43.:01:46.

have committed over 800 million for local authorities to invest in short

:01:47.:01:50.

breaks for disabled children. I'm sure that this research from

:01:51.:01:52.

Bournemouth University will help inform our work in the future. I

:01:53.:01:57.

wonder if the Prime Minister is aware of the alleged mis-selling of

:01:58.:02:01.

cashback warranties by ScottishPower? I wonder if it

:02:02.:02:05.

concerns him as much as it does me that one of the UK's largest

:02:06.:02:09.

utilities companies has allegedly tried to eBay paying back money to

:02:10.:02:14.

thousands of people, many of whom are the poorest in our society. I

:02:15.:02:18.

cross-party delegation to get to the cross-party delegation to get to the

:02:19.:02:23.

truth of the matter. This took place over a decade ago. It was looked at

:02:24.:02:28.

at the time by the then Department of trade and industry. In light of

:02:29.:02:31.

the concerns that exist from members of the public about the outcome of

:02:32.:02:35.

the liquidation, I would like to encourage the honourable gentleman

:02:36.:02:37.

to give the business department all the new information that has come to

:02:38.:02:41.

light. I will fix a meeting for him with the Business Secretary and

:02:42.:02:44.

members of the all-party group, so we can try to get to the bottom of

:02:45.:02:52.

this issue. My constituent Michael Butcher installed CCTV in his

:02:53.:02:55.

mother's flat because she was a dementia sufferer. He recorded on

:02:56.:02:58.

this a brutal assault on her by her carer. Unbelievably to me, the CPS

:02:59.:03:06.

has refused to prosecute her because they say this not in the public

:03:07.:03:09.

interest. Would my right honourable friend agree with me that as a

:03:10.:03:13.

society, we should be totally intolerant of all attacks vulnerable

:03:14.:03:18.

people with dementia? On the specific case, it wouldn't be right

:03:19.:03:22.

for me to comment on the CPS decision. But on a general point

:03:23.:03:26.

about, is it right that we are intolerant of breaches of care

:03:27.:03:29.

against elderly people, particularly those with dementia who are reliant

:03:30.:03:33.

on others, guess, we should be intolerant of that. Our dementia

:03:34.:03:36.

strategy is all about not just increasing the research into trying

:03:37.:03:40.

to tackle dementia, but making sure our care homes and hospitals and

:03:41.:03:43.

communities become more dementia friendly. Mr Speaker, did Gus or

:03:44.:03:55.

Donnell raise any concern they may have had... A number of senior civil

:03:56.:04:01.

servants gave evidence to the leaves an inquiry and were closely

:04:02.:04:07.

questioned. -- lead the singing it. The whole process of Andy Coulson,

:04:08.:04:11.

his arrival in Number Ten Downing Street, the betting of Andy Coulson,

:04:12.:04:15.

the warnings that were given, each and every single one were dealt with

:04:16.:04:22.

by the investigation that the right honourable gentleman supported from

:04:23.:04:24.

the position of leader of the opposition. But he cannot bear the

:04:25.:04:28.

fact that an independent, judge-led enquiry came to that conclusion. He

:04:29.:04:32.

is the first leader of the opposition not able to ask for an

:04:33.:04:34.

independent judicial enquiry because he's already had one. Although the

:04:35.:04:43.

World Cup football results they have not been quite what we wanted in

:04:44.:04:47.

England, we have got the 2015 World Cup rugby to look forward to. My

:04:48.:04:51.

right honourable friend knows there will be four foreign teams playing

:04:52.:04:55.

at Kingsholm on my constituency. Would he agree with me that this is

:04:56.:04:59.

a great opportunity to use the Chancellor's new Brownfield site

:05:00.:05:02.

fund, plus perhaps a new city 's deal from DC LG, to make sure that

:05:03.:05:07.

the regeneration of our small cities is ready for the World Cup 2015? My

:05:08.:05:13.

honourable friend is right, that after the disappointment of the

:05:14.:05:16.

football and also the disappointment of that stunning Test match where we

:05:17.:05:20.

lost on the second last ball, I think it is time perhaps to look to

:05:21.:05:24.

rugby to provide us with something to lift our spirits. Last but not

:05:25.:05:31.

least, Caroline Lucas. In my constituency of Brighton Pavilion,

:05:32.:05:34.

fully one third of homes in the private rented sector, where tenants

:05:35.:05:39.

are often ripped off, forced to move at a month's notice and the average

:05:40.:05:43.

rent for a two-bedroom home is ?1200 a month. Will the Prime Minister

:05:44.:05:47.

back my call for a living rent commission, to explore ways of

:05:48.:05:49.

bringing rents back into line with the basic cost living? There's a

:05:50.:05:54.

debate shortly on the private rented sector and how we get more houses

:05:55.:05:59.

and more competitive rents. Of course we want to see more

:06:00.:06:03.

competitive rents, but when I look at the policies of her party, it

:06:04.:06:06.

looks like you never build any houses anywhere for anyone and as a

:06:07.:06:08.

result, rents would go up. it was dominated by Andy Coulson and

:06:09.:06:23.

the Prime Minister's judgment in employing him as director of

:06:24.:06:26.

communications. In opposition and taking him into government in 2010.

:06:27.:06:32.

A lot of disagreement between the Prime Minister and the leader of the

:06:33.:06:36.

opposition. Some of them fabbing #k4u8. -- factual. The Prime

:06:37.:06:42.

Minister wrapped himself in the Leveson report. Almost every reply

:06:43.:06:47.

was Leveson had answered that question and the Prime Minister

:06:48.:06:52.

hadn't done anything wrong. While we have been on air. I can tell you

:06:53.:06:57.

there is some news from the trial. The jury has been discharged in the

:06:58.:07:05.

hacking trial. It has come to a verdict on the hacking yesterday. It

:07:06.:07:10.

had two other charges to look at, basically about per version of the

:07:11.:07:17.

course of justice and misuse, Mus conduct -- - misconduct of public

:07:18.:07:21.

office and the jury has been unable to come to a decision on these

:07:22.:07:29.

matters involving Andy Coulson and Clive Goodman, so it has been

:07:30.:07:36.

discharged. The judge will decide on Monday if there will be a retrial.

:07:37.:07:41.

So it is a long saga, with 12 other trials to come. The jury has been

:07:42.:07:48.

discharged, unable to come to a verdict on the other issues. We will

:07:49.:07:56.

bring you more on that. Jo, what are the viewers saying about PMQs. They

:07:57.:08:04.

were split. Even said it was an easy win for Ed Milliband. We didn't

:08:05.:08:10.

learn anything new though. The Martin said David Cameron used

:08:11.:08:14.

eleven sop as a shield -- Leveson as a shield. But Andy Coulson was found

:08:15.:08:19.

guilty of hacking and David Cameron ignored concerns about him. Joss

:08:20.:08:24.

said Ed Milliband's fixation with David Cameron having employed Andy

:08:25.:08:28.

Coulson is of no interest to voters. This is the sort of Westminster

:08:29.:08:33.

in-fighting that makes the public sick of politics. And Matthew said

:08:34.:08:38.

the rhetoric of the Labour team about David Cameron's employment of

:08:39.:08:44.

Andy Coulson ring hollow. No one believes that Blair and Brown

:08:45.:08:48.

behaved any differently during their time at No 10. And Jacqueline said

:08:49.:08:55.

it is a predictable line of questioning. Both Labour and Tories

:08:56.:09:00.

were wining and dining the press, the Murdoch press in particular, it

:09:01.:09:08.

is hypocritical. So breaking news, the phone hacking trial jury has

:09:09.:09:12.

been discharged after failing to reach verdicts on two further

:09:13.:09:15.

charges against Andy Coulson. A decision on the a retrial we won't

:09:16.:09:22.

know until Monday. In the general response of the Prime Minister, I

:09:23.:09:27.

did think it was interesting how he wrapped himself in the Leveson

:09:28.:09:36.

report. It is what I call the Hutton/Blair defence. When ever Tony

:09:37.:09:41.

Blair was asked about the death of Mr Hutton, he said, read the report.

:09:42.:09:46.

David Cameron was doing the same. Holding it up, saying there it is,

:09:47.:09:52.

it cost five million quid. That may not clear up the voters, but

:09:53.:10:00.

declaring not guilty. But he could do that about front-pages in The

:10:01.:10:07.

Guardian. When Ed Milliband asked him twice about whether there was

:10:08.:10:11.

civil service advice that it was unwise to appoint Andy Coulson, then

:10:12.:10:16.

David Cameron insisted that too had been raised in the Leveson inquiry

:10:17.:10:22.

and raised with the man who had been head of the civil service at the

:10:23.:10:26.

time. Then Gus O'Donnell. I have checked and I can find no evidence

:10:27.:10:30.

that was raised. I have of course had to speed read the transcript and

:10:31.:10:34.

looked at the newspaper reports, Ed Milliband himself said that he

:10:35.:10:38.

didn't think it had been raised in the Leveson inquiry and when it was

:10:39.:10:46.

raised by a third time by a Labour backbencher, the Prime Minister was

:10:47.:10:51.

more evasive. Saying all sorts of civil servants have been asked all

:10:52.:10:55.

sorts of things. It seems likely, my memory is it was said at the time,

:10:56.:11:02.

but I haven't got evidence, that civil servants said you do know

:11:03.:11:07.

there is questions about this guy, are you sure? Do you think it is

:11:08.:11:10.

wise. It seems likely that happened. Was it advice or a warning, or a

:11:11.:11:17.

quizzical Yes minister question? I don't know. What was unwise of the

:11:18.:11:20.

Prime Minister is to claim that elevenson cleared him of this. --

:11:21.:11:26.

Leveson. I have been through this transcript as well, or as much as we

:11:27.:11:31.

can can get. Two things seem hard to establish. First it is hard to see

:11:32.:11:37.

Leveson asking Gus O'Donnell asking if he expressed concerns about Andy

:11:38.:11:45.

Coulson. He asked about deep vetting. Whether reservations were

:11:46.:11:49.

expressed by the permanent bureaucracy, that is not clear that

:11:50.:11:54.

was raised in the Leveson inquiry. So I think that puts David Cameron

:11:55.:11:58.

in the spot. What Ed Milliband has to do is find some way of trying to

:11:59.:12:03.

prove that the civil servants raised this. To prove it and find somebody

:12:04.:12:07.

willing to say they raised it and to prove that there were not just

:12:08.:12:12.

public warnings that we knew about from newspapers and Nick Clegg. But

:12:13.:12:17.

private warnings. In the end David Cameron can say, I didn't have any

:12:18.:12:22.

evidence. The evidence I had was that he was not guilty. But it is

:12:23.:12:26.

another interesting tactic he uses. He often says look, I got the same

:12:27.:12:31.

assurances as the police got. I got the same assurances the Press

:12:32.:12:38.

Complaints Commission. He muddling his times. At the times the

:12:39.:12:42.

allegations were made, the police and the Press Complaints Commission

:12:43.:12:45.

had not looked into this. At the time he was making a decision to

:12:46.:12:53.

stand by his man, it wasn't case he could say these organisations such

:12:54.:13:00.

as the police had backed him. Do I think they're fatal? No, they cast

:13:01.:13:05.

further questions and doubt on the judgment of appointing him. You have

:13:06.:13:08.

been deep vetted you were telling us. I was a special advisor in

:13:09.:13:15.

Northern Ireland and when I was appointed the first thing you were

:13:16.:13:19.

asked to do is undergo what is called developed vetting. It was

:13:20.:13:26.

called positive vetting. It is the most intrusive form of viting to

:13:27.:13:31.

determine -- vetting to determine whether you're trust worthy and they

:13:32.:13:35.

asked you some horrible questions about your sex life and your

:13:36.:13:42.

financial background. Mine was depressingly plain! I find it

:13:43.:13:48.

implausible that that process wasn't imposed on a man who is going to be

:13:49.:13:51.

director of communications at the heart of No 10. It is not just my

:13:52.:13:56.

experience, all of his predecessor, his deputy and his successor went

:13:57.:14:00.

through that level of security. The reason you have got to go through

:14:01.:14:06.

it, is if you can't undertake that, you can't read the most top secret

:14:07.:14:12.

documents and offer advice to the Prime Minister of the country. If he

:14:13.:14:18.

didn't undergo thastret vet -- vetting, somebody took a decision.

:14:19.:14:23.

Him being the Prime Minister? Mr Andy Coulson may have chosen not to

:14:24.:14:27.

undergo that degree of vetting. Or the Prime Minister, or civil

:14:28.:14:33.

servants. But it is undoubtedly out of the ordinary for a director of

:14:34.:14:38.

communications in the No 10 department not to undergo that. They

:14:39.:14:42.

have failed to answer why it was he wasn't subject to that degree of

:14:43.:14:47.

scrutiny. I think we can craw con-- draw conclusions. Would there have

:14:48.:14:52.

been a chance if Andy Coulson had gone through this, it is developed

:14:53.:14:57.

vetting it is called. Is there a chance that could have found out

:14:58.:15:03.

that he had been involved in the whole hacking business? Yes, there

:15:04.:15:09.

is every prospect. Why? Because what you do in these tests, you are

:15:10.:15:16.

submitted to two interviews and asked to provide examples of

:15:17.:15:21.

individuals you, who have known you during your life so, they can be

:15:22.:15:27.

cross-examinationed to -- cross-examined to see what you have

:15:28.:15:31.

said and look into your work experience and past history. It is

:15:32.:15:35.

possible that that might have turned up. In fact it is implausible it

:15:36.:15:40.

wouldn't have turned up all of the questions that were in the public

:15:41.:15:44.

domain. You didn't need somebody to do a check to know this was a bloke

:15:45.:15:51.

about whom there were questions. Priti Patel, by the May of 2010 when

:15:52.:15:56.

he was moving from being an advisor to the opposition to becoming a

:15:57.:16:00.

proper director of communications at the heart of government,

:16:01.:16:03.

proper director of communications at the heart of we had had the Guardian

:16:04.:16:11.

study. It wasn't until September 2010 we got the New York Times

:16:12.:16:15.

report. But there was a lot of information in the public domain you

:16:16.:16:19.

would expect that guys and women who do developed vetting would have got

:16:20.:16:23.

involved in? I can't speak for that time and we can make all sorts of

:16:24.:16:27.

comments with hind sight. But it seems from me even from Owen's

:16:28.:16:33.

comments, there is a process and the civil service took the edecision o'

:16:34.:16:39.

- the decision it was for them to undertake the process. I don't know

:16:40.:16:47.

what, why there were not triggers. Perhaps Leveson should have asked

:16:48.:16:51.

the questions. Whether they came out in court we don't know. We are

:16:52.:16:55.

getting an Executive versus judiciary spat. The hacking trial

:16:56.:17:02.

judge has said he considered halting proceedings following criticism by

:17:03.:17:08.

No 10 spin doctor's lawyer of the Prime Minister's ill advised

:17:09.:17:13.

intervention in the case. Let's go to Robin who is in his favourite

:17:14.:17:19.

position outside the court. Bring us up to speed. There is a lot

:17:20.:17:24.

happening now? Yes, we knew this yesterday. We can now report,

:17:25.:17:28.

because the jury has been discharged. In the final hours of

:17:29.:17:32.

the trial yesterday, after the verdicts were returned, partial

:17:33.:17:35.

verdicts which cleared Rebekah Brooks and others and found Andy

:17:36.:17:39.

Coulson guilty of phone hacking, the judge was concerned that comments

:17:40.:17:44.

from the Prime Minister and Ed Milliband may have scuppered the

:17:45.:17:48.

whole thing. We didn't get everything yesterday. We still had

:17:49.:17:51.

do remaining counts, which the jury were unable to reach a verdict on.

:17:52.:17:57.

It looks like somebody is leaving court. But I will continue. They

:17:58.:18:04.

were unable to reach a verdict yesterday and Timothy Langdale said

:18:05.:18:10.

there has been a tidal wave of reporting both last night and today

:18:11.:18:16.

and his concern and he did point the finger at the Prime Minister, that

:18:17.:18:18.

comments from the Prime Minister who, had said that Andy Coulson had

:18:19.:18:21.

lied to him and from Ed Milliband who referred to Andy Coulson as a

:18:22.:18:26.

criminal, meant that this jury were unable to reach impartial verdicts.

:18:27.:18:32.

I can also say the judge was in contact with the Prime Minister's

:18:33.:18:37.

PPS yesterday and the Attorney General's office to understand how

:18:38.:18:40.

the decision had been made for the Prime Minister to make that

:18:41.:18:43.

statement. The judge wanted representations from the Prime

:18:44.:18:46.

Minister's office and to know was the statement made at the particular

:18:47.:18:51.

time deliberately or out of ignorance. He referred to

:18:52.:18:54.

politicians trying to make capital out of those statements yesterday. I

:18:55.:19:00.

think partially that point is moot now, because the

:19:01.:19:01.

think partially that point is moot now, jury have been discharged.

:19:02.:19:05.

There may be a retrial. But it is intriguing and in the final hours of

:19:06.:19:08.

the trial there was the prospect and concern from this judge that

:19:09.:19:11.

actually the politicians and the Prime Minister especially could have

:19:12.:19:15.

scuppered the whole thing coming to an end and coming to an end in an

:19:16.:19:22.

inappropriate way. All of that would be relevant to a jury in a retrial.

:19:23.:19:30.

Everything you have said that could have contaminated this jury, these

:19:31.:19:36.

arguments could be used in a retrial and Andy Coulson's lawyers may well

:19:37.:19:39.

argue that he cannot get a fair trial. I think that's true. One of

:19:40.:19:51.

the big issues in this trial has been what has been known by the

:19:52.:19:55.

public at large and any potential juror 's before they come to this

:19:56.:19:59.

court and take on the responsibility of being jurors. That was a huge

:20:00.:20:05.

issue. Before this trial began last year, Rebekah Brooks' team submitted

:20:06.:20:09.

applications for the judge, and it was impossible for her to get a fair

:20:10.:20:13.

applications for the judge, and it trial because they said so much

:20:14.:20:13.

negative publicity was out trial because they said so much

:20:14.:20:17.

about her, so much in the way of personal attacks. In the end, she

:20:18.:20:20.

sat here for eight months, got a fair trial and this jury returned an

:20:21.:20:25.

unanimous verdict and acquitted on all four charges she faced. Andy

:20:26.:20:29.

Coulson has a legal team that is being funded by News UK. He faces

:20:30.:20:34.

the prospect of legal proceedings elsewhere after this. They would

:20:35.:20:39.

quite rightly, you might say, use anything available to them to ensure

:20:40.:20:43.

that if there is a risk he doesn't get a fair trial in the future, then

:20:44.:20:49.

a court should hear about it and potential juror 's should hear about

:20:50.:20:56.

it as well. There was a reference in Gus O'Donnell's testimony to the

:20:57.:21:01.

inquiry about Mr Coulson, but it wasn't about him expressing any

:21:02.:21:05.

concerns to the Prime Minister. He was asked about the Deputy Prime

:21:06.:21:09.

Minister, the royal household raising the matter with him. He

:21:10.:21:12.

said, neither Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Clegg, nor the Royal

:21:13.:21:16.

household raised any concerns with me or officials either before or

:21:17.:21:21.

during Mr Coulson's period of employment. That is a different

:21:22.:21:25.

issue. I guess Buckingham Palace were involved because the News of

:21:26.:21:28.

the World had been targeting some of the royal phones. That doesn't get

:21:29.:21:31.

us any further forward on whether the civil service or Mr O'Donnell

:21:32.:21:38.

himself raised the issue. It's pretty extraordinary that the

:21:39.:21:40.

hacking trial judge considered stopping the trial will stop the

:21:41.:21:45.

prime Minister's intervention was, quote, ill-advised and premature,

:21:46.:21:49.

was what the judge said. What is even more intriguing was at the time

:21:50.:21:53.

David Cameron was speaking to the cameras, the Government's principal

:21:54.:21:58.

legal officer, the Attorney General, an independent legal figure, even

:21:59.:22:01.

though he's a politician, he has independent status, he was in the

:22:02.:22:04.

room advising him about what could and could not be said. He clearly

:22:05.:22:12.

took legal advice from the top lawyer. The Curiosity rover this for

:22:13.:22:16.

people who follow the law is the person you would actually prosecute

:22:17.:22:23.

in the temp of contempt of court was the Attorney General.

:22:24.:22:32.

person you would actually prosecute in the temp of We need to move on,

:22:33.:22:35.

whether or not there is a retrial, we will hear that on Monday. There

:22:36.:22:40.

are big concerns about whether now a jury, having heard all this come,

:22:41.:22:54.

can do the trial proper. Let's see. Should the government focus on

:22:55.:22:57.

tackling extremist mindsets, which some argue lead to a violent

:22:58.:23:01.

conclusion? If you decide to challenge more conservative or

:23:02.:23:05.

radical reforms of Islam, could you end up alienating those who need to

:23:06.:23:09.

keep onside? That's an argument which is currently under way within

:23:10.:23:12.

Whitehall and the security services, and an argument that this journalist

:23:13.:23:16.

thinks is going in the wrong direction. Ear is her soapbox.

:23:17.:23:26.

The horrific death and destruction in Tavistock Square nine years ago

:23:27.:23:32.

was the work of violent extremists. But in the years since, the

:23:33.:23:35.

accusation of extremism has been levelled wider and wider. Just last

:23:36.:23:41.

week, Cameron called for tackling extremist rhetoric, not just violent

:23:42.:23:45.

acts, stating, we don't tolerate fascists in this country so we

:23:46.:23:48.

shouldn't tolerate that argument when it comes to Islamic extremism.

:23:49.:23:55.

Except that we do tolerate fascists. The leader of the BNP appears on

:23:56.:24:00.

flagship BBC programmes. Neither the EDL built Britain first had been

:24:01.:24:03.

prescribed. The reason we tolerate fascists is because we value free

:24:04.:24:07.

speech and freedom of conscience. The hysteria reached new heights

:24:08.:24:11.

with recent events in Birmingham. The Muslim governors and parents

:24:12.:24:14.

caught up in the so called Trojan horse row aren't the equivalent of

:24:15.:24:22.

the BNP. They are simply old-fashioned, social conservatives

:24:23.:24:26.

who don't approve of music or sex outside of marriage. You don't have

:24:27.:24:29.

too agree with them, but you can't call them extreme in the sense of a

:24:30.:24:33.

threat to national security. And it's not just our current Prime

:24:34.:24:36.

Minister. Tony Blair compared Birmingham schools to the gun

:24:37.:24:40.

toting, hand chopping Boko Haram terror arrests. This is precisely

:24:41.:24:44.

where the strategy of targeting non-violent extremists is so

:24:45.:24:48.

misguided. If opposing gay marriage makes you an un-British extremist,

:24:49.:24:54.

then there are plenty of Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Jews and even

:24:55.:24:58.

non-believers who could be lumped into that definition, starting with

:24:59.:25:01.

the Archbishop of Canterbury. And if gender segregation is extreme, where

:25:02.:25:04.

does that leave Eaton, Harrow or Cheltenham ladies College? In fact,

:25:05.:25:09.

where does it leave those Cabinet ministers who are members of the

:25:10.:25:14.

all-male Bullington club? And, no, it isn't extremist to use halal meet

:25:15.:25:18.

in pizza express. Nor is it extremist to wear a headscarf or any

:25:19.:25:22.

other form of conservative dress per se, or to pray in the mosque five

:25:23.:25:28.

times a day. It is damaging to social cohesion and ultimately

:25:29.:25:33.

self-defeating to go after the fine looking social conservatives, when

:25:34.:25:35.

the evidence suggests that terrorists are more likely to be

:25:36.:25:39.

cricket playing, club going political radicals. The threat of

:25:40.:25:43.

violent extremism is too serious to risk alienating an entire community

:25:44.:25:46.

because some may hold socially conservative views on gender or

:25:47.:25:50.

disapprove of tombola. Let's focus our energies on those with the will

:25:51.:25:55.

and capabilities to harness, rather than risk stigmatising those who may

:25:56.:26:04.

hold illiberal views. Welcome to the programme. Isn't the point about

:26:05.:26:08.

imposing social conservatism in schools, it's when you impose your

:26:09.:26:14.

views, which not be extreme if you are using other comparisons, but you

:26:15.:26:17.

are using them inappropriately in an educational sphere? According to

:26:18.:26:23.

what? Academies have been given the power to reflect the ethos of the

:26:24.:26:26.

community in which they are working. In that sense, if you want to open

:26:27.:26:31.

up a debate on academies and free schools and whether or not they

:26:32.:26:34.

should be given the freedom to do that, I think there is a debate to

:26:35.:26:40.

be had. What about in taxpayer-funded state schools,

:26:41.:26:42.

particularly coed, is it acceptable for boys and girls to be separated

:26:43.:26:48.

in mainstream lessons? Many faith schools in this country Faith --

:26:49.:26:52.

state funded. They are separating boys and girls with taxpayer money.

:26:53.:26:57.

So it is acceptable? It is done. boys and girls with taxpayer money.

:26:58.:27:03.

non-faith, taxpayer funded schools, some of these were in Birmingham?

:27:04.:27:09.

When 90% of your student body is from a particular religion, is it

:27:10.:27:12.

appropriate then to ask for that school to be turned into a faith

:27:13.:27:15.

school? There's a broader debate to be had about schools, but the issue

:27:16.:27:19.

is it's not an issue of radicalisation. Is Miriam Wright,

:27:20.:27:23.

they are not extreme if you are imposing these sorts of things, it

:27:24.:27:34.

might be socially conservative? I think this is about values in an

:27:35.:27:36.

educational environment and institutions. It's not about the

:27:37.:27:38.

imposition in the Draconian way we've heard about in the past. There

:27:39.:27:41.

are plenty of faith schools where you see values and faith come into

:27:42.:27:44.

play in the right kind of way, it's balanced, it's not imposed in the

:27:45.:27:48.

very stringent and, I don't like using the term... Some of

:27:49.:27:55.

very stringent and, I don't like Birmingham schools? They are being

:27:56.:27:58.

investigated. There was an extremist ideology, that was what was

:27:59.:28:01.

reported... What is extremist? ideology, that was what was

:28:02.:28:07.

are the words they used. They felt things like banning tombola or a

:28:08.:28:10.

raffle at the school fete seemed extreme. Segregation, extreme. A

:28:11.:28:15.

preacher in a school, extended Islamic assembly, a preacher calling

:28:16.:28:19.

on board to destroy the enemies of Islam, is that not extreme? If you

:28:20.:28:24.

set up within the school grounds and the fact he was invited in the first

:28:25.:28:34.

place is an absolute problem. He should have been vetted. Whether or

:28:35.:28:36.

not banning tombola is extreme, I don't think we are going to agree

:28:37.:28:42.

there. We've run out of time. I don't like tombola! The answer to

:28:43.:28:44.

Guess the Year was 1965. I'll be back tomorrow at the earlier

:28:45.:28:59.

time of 11am because it is Wimbledon. Goodbye!

:29:00.:29:01.

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