27/06/2014 Daily Politics


27/06/2014

Andrew Neil is joined by journalists Zoe Williams and Iain Martin to discuss the day's political news, including the latest from the EU summit in Brussels.


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Transcript


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David Cameron takes his battle against Jean Claude Juncker to

:00:36.:00:40.

Brussels, where all the signs are he'll fail to stop his appointment

:00:41.:00:43.

Mr Cameron remains defiant though, insisting he'll force other leaders

:00:44.:00:50.

to vote on the issue and warning of the need to embrace reform.

:00:51.:00:57.

After the row over Oxfam's poster campaign, we ask how political

:00:58.:01:01.

And what impact will the Bank of England Governor's new rules

:01:02.:01:08.

on mortgage lending have on Britain's housing market?

:01:09.:01:18.

All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme

:01:19.:01:21.

today I'm joined by two estimable political commentators -

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Iain Martin from the Telegraph and Zoe Williams of the Guardian.

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Now while all eyes are on David Cameron and

:01:40.:01:41.

his epic battle in Brussels against the appointment of Jean Claude

:01:42.:01:44.

Juncker, European leaders have other business to attend to today.

:01:45.:01:47.

The President of the Ukraine is also in Brussels to sign the

:01:48.:01:51.

Association Agreement with the EU which sparked last year's coup and

:01:52.:01:55.

Today's events do not please Vladimir Putin.

:01:56.:02:09.

Here's his spokesman, Sergei Glazyev, speaking to

:02:10.:02:11.

the BBC's Steve Rosenberg. Given it was his attempt to get closer to

:02:12.:03:04.

Europe that got the Russians wild in the first place, will face stop

:03:05.:03:11.

things up again? Obviously that is the question one asks, but the EU

:03:12.:03:16.

cannot stay out of this forever. The constant refrain is maybe if we

:03:17.:03:20.

don't say too much of this will go away, or Vladimir Putin will get

:03:21.:03:24.

what he wants and his ambitions will be over. At some point the bodies

:03:25.:03:29.

that were set up to establish equilibria and peace have got to put

:03:30.:03:34.

their cards on the table. Whether it is exit or not, I don't see what

:03:35.:03:38.

they can do. The Russians don't like the idea of being encircled. They

:03:39.:03:42.

are not being encircled militarily, obviously, but they don't like

:03:43.:03:48.

people that are in the near sphere of influence getting muscled in on

:03:49.:03:56.

by the Europeans. Absolutely. Vladimir is a fascinating guy. He

:03:57.:04:01.

stood against Putin in 2004. It suggests that he is a pretty brave

:04:02.:04:06.

guy and then he was hired in 2012 by Putin to set up the customs union

:04:07.:04:09.

because the Russians wanted to control most of the former Soviet

:04:10.:04:14.

states. It talks a lot to what is happening with Mr Juncker at the

:04:15.:04:18.

moment. We think of Europe from a British point of view but if you

:04:19.:04:22.

look at the opinion polls attacking David Cameron, that is really about

:04:23.:04:34.

the rise of Russia and the Polish fear of a resurgent Russia, and if

:04:35.:04:37.

the polls see anyone causing disruption to European Union unity,

:04:38.:04:44.

that is a threat. That is such an interesting point of view. In

:04:45.:04:49.

discourse we have seen nobody as a territorial threat. But if they

:04:50.:04:53.

are... That is why Mr Cameron's erstwhile ally the polls are now

:04:54.:04:59.

siding with Germany. They have to stick with Germany like glue. It is

:05:00.:05:03.

fascinating. I wish it was not quite so close.

:05:04.:05:13.

It would be worth seeing what the fallout is. David Cameron is also in

:05:14.:05:26.

Brussels today. The Finnish PM this morning said

:05:27.:05:28.

that the people of the UK "need to wake up and smell the coffee" when

:05:29.:05:31.

it comes to the European Union. So, as Jean Claude Juncker looks set

:05:32.:05:34.

to get the top job at the European Commission, what else is brewing

:05:35.:05:38.

in the world of European politics? A new President of the European

:05:39.:05:40.

Council will have to be chosen: the Danish Prime Minister Helle

:05:41.:05:44.

Thorning-Schmidt has been tipped as a possible contender to take

:05:45.:05:47.

over from Hermann van Rompuy. The EU also needs to find

:05:48.:05:54.

a new foreign policy chief, known as the High Representative

:05:55.:05:56.

for Foreign Affairs. The Italian Foreign Minister,

:05:57.:05:59.

Federica Mogherini, is a name There also some key economic

:06:00.:06:04.

portfolios in the Commission that member states

:06:05.:06:12.

are keen to get their hands on: competition,

:06:13.:06:15.

economic and monetary affairs, Andrew Lansley is seen

:06:16.:06:17.

a leading candidate to be sent to Brussels as a Commissioner but it's

:06:18.:06:23.

by no means assured that the UK will And finally the European Parliament

:06:24.:06:29.

will choose a new President: Martin Schulz, the previous

:06:30.:06:37.

president, could well get the job As he arrived

:06:38.:06:40.

in Brussels this morning, David Cameron reiterated his

:06:41.:06:50.

opposition to Jean-Claude Juncker. The European elections showed there

:06:51.:07:03.

is huge disquiet about the way the European Union works. Yet, the

:07:04.:07:09.

response, I believe, will be wrong on two grounds. It is not right for

:07:10.:07:14.

the elected heads of government of the European countries to give up

:07:15.:07:18.

their right to nominate the head of the European Commission, the most

:07:19.:07:23.

important role in Europe. That is a bad principle and it is the wrong

:07:24.:07:28.

person. He has been at the heart of the project to increase the power of

:07:29.:07:34.

Brussels the power of nation states for his entire working life. He is

:07:35.:07:38.

not the right person. I am very clear about right thing to do. You

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have to stand up for what you believe and vote accordingly. Let's

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speak to our political editor. Those voters who care about it, which is a

:07:59.:08:03.

minority, they are on his side and back benches love it. What is being

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said about it? Was a poll done by the financial Times which asked

:08:12.:08:14.

voters what they would think of the Prime Minister losing but fighting.

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Losing but fighting is popular. He did not think it would be like this.

:08:24.:08:27.

He thought the Germans were onside and were the Swedes and the Danes.

:08:28.:08:32.

One by one, as Angela Merkel changed her mind, all the others changed

:08:33.:08:36.

theirs as well and he finds himself on his own. He is trying to snatch

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some form of moral victory for the defeat for his negotiating strategy

:08:44.:08:47.

by saying to voters at home, as well as people here in Brussels, you

:08:48.:08:50.

might think I am the sort of guy who changes his mind when I am on the

:08:51.:08:58.

losing side, I might do a deal here or a deal that would take a

:08:59.:09:02.

compromise, I will not. This is where I stand. This is what I do.

:09:03.:09:09.

This man is being chosen by a process he does not believe in. Am I

:09:10.:09:14.

right in detecting that a lot of the other European leaders are bit fed

:09:15.:09:19.

up with them? The criticism is getting a bit bitter about Mr

:09:20.:09:27.

Cameron. The wake up and smell the costly line was directed at the

:09:28.:09:31.

British voter rather than David Cameron. You can stand as the cars

:09:32.:09:36.

roll up and Prime Ministers and presidents come to the cameras and

:09:37.:09:39.

talk. Many of them are being asked by their own media in the own

:09:40.:09:45.

languages about David Cameron. I managed to speak to quite a few of

:09:46.:09:49.

them in English. They go out of their way and say, yes, David

:09:50.:09:53.

Cameron loses today but we do not want them to leave. The Danish Prime

:09:54.:10:00.

Minister was expected to be a key ally. It was about Britain being

:10:01.:10:04.

back in the game after today. What they are trying to do is to say,

:10:05.:10:10.

look, forget the man, let's look at the agenda for the next five years

:10:11.:10:15.

in the EU being agreed here. They claimed that is more to British

:10:16.:10:18.

tastes than it might otherwise have been. I think we know the outcome

:10:19.:10:26.

today. What happens after that? Does the bitterness linger on and begin

:10:27.:10:32.

to affect European attitudes towards Britain in other matters? It clearly

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has to be a danger that European leaders think maybe there is nothing

:10:38.:10:41.

we can do or say. Maybe David Cameron has made his mind that he

:10:42.:10:45.

constantly has to be at war with us. Maybe the British people are

:10:46.:10:51.

beginning to make their minds up to go. British diplomats are determined

:10:52.:10:55.

that not happen. There certainly is this case that when Angela Merkel

:10:56.:10:59.

talked yesterday, she used the phrase, good compromises for

:11:00.:11:04.

Britain. There may be a pang of conscience in the mind of the German

:11:05.:11:08.

Chancellor. Maybe I did give him the suggestion I was onside and I now

:11:09.:11:13.

have to give him a lot in return. What the British Government is

:11:14.:11:16.

banking on is there are a lot of countries, for all they find Britain

:11:17.:11:22.

irritating and these rows frustrating, like Britain onside in

:11:23.:11:26.

particular over arguments about free trade. If you are a German, a

:11:27.:11:31.

Swede, a Dane or a Dutchman, you want to free market for use within

:11:32.:11:36.

the EU, you do not want Germany to be alone, if you like, running what

:11:37.:11:44.

one British official called the Club Med of Nations. You look like you

:11:45.:11:49.

are in the Club Med right now, it is so bright. Thank you for joining us!

:11:50.:11:59.

Watch out for the sun! The BBC political editor marking our card as

:12:00.:12:10.

always. At this stage, we had hoped to be joined by Sajjad Karim, but he

:12:11.:12:28.

is not here at the moment. Tell us about Jean Claude Juncker. Why would

:12:29.:12:34.

he make a good president? You said we would be backing him. We have not

:12:35.:12:42.

decided that yet. We want that the council nominates Jean Claude

:12:43.:12:45.

Juncker. He will be running for the jobs. It would be nice if the Greens

:12:46.:12:51.

had got in those seats. They did not. Once he is nominated, we want

:12:52.:12:58.

to have a hearing with him in our group and have all the green members

:12:59.:13:01.

of the European Parliament asking questions to him and we will see

:13:02.:13:09.

what his programme is. The way Mr Cameron wants to reform Europe, and

:13:10.:13:13.

I agree you have to change things, I actually agree when he says that we

:13:14.:13:16.

need to really change the way the European works. Part of that is more

:13:17.:13:23.

democracy, more solidarity, more of a social union. I want to see what

:13:24.:13:27.

Jean Claude Juncker proposes in those areas when it comes to

:13:28.:13:30.

fighting climate change and coming out of the crisis. We will not buy a

:13:31.:13:36.

less Europe programme like Mr Cameron wants to see it. Did you say

:13:37.:13:42.

that Jean Claude Juncker had a Cameron programme? Well, I mean,

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they're clearly as to be a deal. Jean Claude Juncker will be

:13:50.:13:54.

nominated and now be a lot of pressure on him. We want to hear

:13:55.:14:04.

from Jean Claude Juncker what he proposes and how he wants to ensure

:14:05.:14:10.

that peoples worries about social issues are important, how he wants

:14:11.:14:14.

to create jobs and fight climate change. It is important for us and I

:14:15.:14:19.

would find it very problematic if now the deal for Mr Cameron is that

:14:20.:14:23.

now they nominate Jean Claude Juncker but then he gets a programme

:14:24.:14:28.

which is completely a Tory one. Your line from Berlin is breaking up a

:14:29.:14:32.

bit. Stick with us we are going to stick with you. We now have Sajjad

:14:33.:14:37.

Karim with us who has joined us in the studio in London. Why don't you

:14:38.:14:44.

want Jean Claude Juncker when almost everyone else in Europe seems to be

:14:45.:14:52.

gathering around him? It is quite clear if you look at the recent

:14:53.:14:55.

European Parliament elections, people are not happy with the status

:14:56.:14:59.

quo as it is. Mr Juncker is a face from the past and it is a time now

:15:00.:15:05.

for new faces and new ideas, a wholesale reform programme to take

:15:06.:15:10.

place. Mr Juncker is simply not an individual who has a record that

:15:11.:15:16.

would stand to be tested that he is the man who can deliver this. Europe

:15:17.:15:20.

is divided over Jean-Claude Juncker. We have just heard from the

:15:21.:15:24.

Green party that they have not yet made up their minds. What Mr Cameron

:15:25.:15:30.

has done, instead of being divided against Mr Juncker, Europe is now

:15:31.:15:37.

divided against Mr Cameron. We have ensured that this process becomes

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much more transparent. If you look at what the treaties say, we have

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acted in accordance with that. We are taking into account the European

:15:46.:15:49.

Parliament election results but the responsibility remains with the

:15:50.:15:53.

heads of state in Council and consultation takes a part of the

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process as is required under the Lisbon Treaty, and that is exactly

:15:59.:16:03.

what is happening now. Ska Keller, I hope the line has restored itself.

:16:04.:16:07.

If not Mr Juncker for the Green party, who? You have not got another

:16:08.:16:14.

choice, have you? As I said, we want Mr Juncker to be nominated by the

:16:15.:16:20.

council. He has the right to find a majority in the Parliament. Whether

:16:21.:16:24.

we are part of the majority, we will see if that is linked to the

:16:25.:16:35.

programme. INAUDIBLE. I am sorry but if the bigger parties did not manage

:16:36.:16:39.

to find someone among them bringing the fresh new ideas, new and fresh

:16:40.:16:45.

faces, then I am really sorry. They could have put forward their own

:16:46.:16:49.

candidate but Mr Juncker was backed by many heads of state. INAUDIBLE. I

:16:50.:16:57.

really have to apologise. I have got to interrupt you. I am fascinated by

:16:58.:17:03.

what you are saying but there is a technical problem on the line.

:17:04.:17:07.

Please come back onto the programme when we get the line sorted out on

:17:08.:17:11.

another day and we can hear your perspective. Many apologies to you

:17:12.:17:15.

but thank you for what you have told us so far. We hope we can get you

:17:16.:17:20.

back on the programme. Where does this leave Mr Cameron? It leaves him

:17:21.:17:25.

isolated. Perversely in this case it is probably not a bad place to be.

:17:26.:17:32.

In terms of domestic politics? Domestically it is perfectly healthy

:17:33.:17:35.

that he finds himself in this position. For the European Union it

:17:36.:17:41.

is an absolute catastrophe. This is a very significant, important

:17:42.:17:46.

historical turning point, potentially, and this could be the

:17:47.:17:51.

week that the door is opened to Britain leaving and I speak as

:17:52.:17:54.

someone in favour of reform and trying to stay in. But in choosing

:17:55.:18:00.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the rest of Europe is essentially saying that

:18:01.:18:02.

kind of reform that Britain once is off the table. The European election

:18:03.:18:10.

showed that there was a lot of unhappiness with the way Europe is

:18:11.:18:12.

going across the continent at the moment. Some people will see it as a

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bit of a slap in the face that you then choose as the new President

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someone synonymous with the old way of doing things. Look, he is

:18:23.:18:26.

synonymous with the old way of doing things but he does have a programme

:18:27.:18:31.

of increased federalism and the European line, which is true, is

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that you cannot have a currency that you all share if you do not have

:18:35.:18:38.

other mechanisms that you all share. But we don't all share it. We don't,

:18:39.:18:46.

obviously. So federalism for the eurozone or the EU? We don't share

:18:47.:18:50.

it but we cannot interfere with their attempts to draw it together.

:18:51.:18:55.

But he is President of the EU, not the eurozone. We have to understand

:18:56.:19:00.

their priorities as people try to get out of depression in many

:19:01.:19:04.

cases, and keep their currencies together, which are different to our

:19:05.:19:09.

priorities. I don't see David Cameron in an involved chess game,

:19:10.:19:13.

ten moves ahead of anyone else, instead I see a man up turning the

:19:14.:19:17.

chessboard and saying he does not play test because he has read that

:19:18.:19:22.

is what the British opinion polls want him to say. That might work

:19:23.:19:25.

well domestically. Does Mr Juncker's appointment matter in the

:19:26.:19:32.

end in terms of Mr Cameron's reform agenda and the repatriation of

:19:33.:19:35.

power? The people who determined that in the end will be the

:19:36.:19:40.

Chancellor of Germany and the President of France. Does it really

:19:41.:19:43.

matter if Mr Juncker is there or not? What does matter is the work

:19:44.:19:48.

programme that he will have to follow. I imagine that is the very

:19:49.:19:55.

thing that will be debated in Belgium right now. We have to make

:19:56.:20:01.

sure the work programme is right. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact

:20:02.:20:04.

this is not the only top job on offer at the moment in Brussels.

:20:05.:20:09.

There are other very significant positions, where if we can manoeuvre

:20:10.:20:14.

and get our people into place, we stand to benefit greatly. What is

:20:15.:20:18.

happening here, actually I am very encouraged by it. For the first time

:20:19.:20:22.

we are seeing European politics is being made transparent. When was the

:20:23.:20:26.

last time we saw this kind of debate taking place right across Europe

:20:27.:20:38.

about the types of personalities we need to have in these important

:20:39.:20:40.

positions? It is hardly transparent with the federalists claiming Mr

:20:41.:20:42.

Juncker is the choice of the European voters. The number of

:20:43.:20:45.

voters in Germany who knew that Mr Juncker was a candidate could fit

:20:46.:20:53.

into one Munich beer Seller! You are the Conservative nominating

:20:54.:20:55.

President. It is not going to happen, is it? We have put forward a

:20:56.:21:01.

strong programme. I did not ask about the programme. I said it would

:21:02.:21:07.

not happen. Yesterday evening and important publication in Brussels

:21:08.:21:11.

called the European Voice came out and said that the linkage of the

:21:12.:21:16.

European Parliament's presidency with the European Commission

:21:17.:21:18.

presidency by Martin Schultz is the wrong thing for him to do and this

:21:19.:21:23.

is an exercise of deceit. Now it is up to the MEPs. They have a secret

:21:24.:21:27.

vote as to whether they fall into line with this exercise of defeat.

:21:28.:21:33.

Or do they stand for what European citizens want? Will you give us the

:21:34.:21:39.

first interview? I will be on the first train over, Andrew. Having

:21:40.:21:43.

seen our link to Brussels, I am not surprised you will come back on the

:21:44.:21:48.

train! Thank you! How careful the British charities need to be about

:21:49.:21:53.

straying into British politics? Should politicians be more relaxed

:21:54.:21:57.

when charities turned their campaigns to policy? This follows

:21:58.:22:06.

her out over an Oxford -- a row over an Oxfam poster which politicians

:22:07.:22:11.

said amounted to campaigning. Politicians like being associated

:22:12.:22:14.

with charities and charitable works and make no mistake, charities and

:22:15.:22:20.

enjoy and benefit from link to politicians. But recently one of the

:22:21.:22:24.

Prime Minister's fold complained that one charity had stopped being a

:22:25.:22:27.

charity and was sailing dangerously close to being a group of

:22:28.:22:31.

politicians with an agenda that looked very similar to that of the

:22:32.:22:36.

Labour Party. The perfect storm poster was Oxfam promoting a report

:22:37.:22:40.

it was publishing on ongoing work that it is calling breadline

:22:41.:22:44.

Britain. But it got caught in a storm of its own. We have the

:22:45.:22:48.

Government giving unrestricted grants to charities and then

:22:49.:22:53.

charities using that money to lobby the charity that money to lobby the

:22:54.:22:57.

charity I think that is an abuse and it should come to an end. -- that

:22:58.:23:06.

money to lobby the Government. I am all for lobbying. But if you give

:23:07.:23:10.

money to Oxfam you think it will alleviate poverty in poor parts of

:23:11.:23:21.

the world and not be involved in politics in this country. Oxfam

:23:22.:23:26.

defended themselves on their website. They said they'd do it

:23:27.:23:29.

straight into policy areas but they are not politically biased. They are

:23:30.:23:35.

very careful to make sure they are not party politically aligned. I

:23:36.:23:39.

know that of Oxfam. I know that of other reputable development

:23:40.:23:42.

agencies. That does not mean they are not political and that is where

:23:43.:23:47.

people get confused. Political means dealing with issues like poverty and

:23:48.:23:51.

riots and they are political issues. Oxfam and other major charities

:23:52.:23:55.

lobby Government all the time, but for the MP who made the complaint,

:23:56.:23:59.

there is a wider problem. If you look at the list of some of the

:24:00.:24:10.

so-called charity leaders who attacked me in The Times newspaper

:24:11.:24:13.

recently, a good number of them have stood for the Labour Party in

:24:14.:24:15.

general elections, they have advised Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, and

:24:16.:24:17.

they are coming into charities and using their position to campaign

:24:18.:24:21.

against people who wear their political opponents. The sad thing

:24:22.:24:27.

for me is the debate becomes whether it is right to say this rather than

:24:28.:24:32.

a debate about poverty, what causes it and what can be done. We should

:24:33.:24:39.

not get off into focusing on Oxfam's poster. Many charities

:24:40.:24:44.

survive on donations alone but some receive grants from Government.

:24:45.:24:49.

Critics of the Oxfam policy say that greater transparency and

:24:50.:24:51.

accountability of how taxpayers' money is spent would be better. The

:24:52.:24:56.

charity says they are looking into the post and will report on whether

:24:57.:25:00.

it breached charity guidelines soon. -- the poster. Did they crossed the

:25:01.:25:09.

line? Absolutely. When I saw it I thought it was a Labour Party

:25:10.:25:14.

poster. People who go into Oxfam stores and donate money to Oxfam, I

:25:15.:25:20.

think they have a fairly clear idea that Oxfam is about dealing with

:25:21.:25:23.

famine and hunger and poverty abroad. That is the principal point.

:25:24.:25:31.

I think the danger here is that some of the big charities appear to have

:25:32.:25:34.

been captured by people who would really like to be in politics in

:25:35.:25:38.

Whitehall, running things, but in the five years that they are not

:25:39.:25:41.

they can get a gig outside and behave politically. They should

:25:42.:25:47.

stick to charity. If that were a Labour Party campaign poster, I

:25:48.:25:50.

would be delighted if the Labour Party were saying things that French

:25:51.:25:54.

ad about what is wrong. It was not party political. All poverty is

:25:55.:26:01.

political, as a spokesperson said. The idea that you cannot raise money

:26:02.:26:07.

for poverty is preposterous. The idea that Oxfam should be

:26:08.:26:10.

campaigning abroad is very strange. If you can see people below the

:26:11.:26:13.

poverty line having trouble putting food on their own tables in your own

:26:14.:26:19.

country, to say we only deal with Tanzania is perverse. And

:26:20.:26:24.

furthermore, the reason the Trussell Trust was set up was because the

:26:25.:26:29.

founder of it was working abroad and in Salisbury he did a phone in and

:26:30.:26:31.

somebody rang up and said this is all very well but I cannot even feed

:26:32.:26:40.

my own children. OK, set up a charity and if someone wants to

:26:41.:26:44.

campaign on poverty in the UK, do that, fine, no problem. It is the

:26:45.:26:50.

deceit. If you ask most people, and I have certainly bought things from

:26:51.:26:54.

an Oxfam book store and people do, I think I would now think twice about

:26:55.:26:58.

it after that poster. You only want poor people abroad to get money but

:26:59.:27:03.

not people in England. I think the pollution of a big, respected

:27:04.:27:07.

charity who does fantastic work abroad, the pollution of that by

:27:08.:27:12.

political hacks is disgraceful. We have to move on but an interesting

:27:13.:27:18.

debate. It has been an interesting week in politics. Here is our 60

:27:19.:27:27.

secondary cap. -- recapture. Andy Coulson was found guilty of phone

:27:28.:27:34.

hacking. The PM said sorry for hiring him. I am really sorry for

:27:35.:27:37.

hiring him. It was the wrong decision and I'm clear about that.

:27:38.:27:41.

The judge was hacked off with him for talking about a live case. The

:27:42.:27:46.

debate continues about ISAs. William Hague went to Baghdad for a flying

:27:47.:27:51.

visit. You wait ages for a high speed railway line and then a third

:27:52.:27:56.

one turns up as the Chancellor announced the bozos to improve

:27:57.:28:04.

connections up North. I am here to -- proposals to improve connections

:28:05.:28:09.

up North. Instead of popping the housing bubble, the Bank of England

:28:10.:28:13.

went more of a gentle fizzing, with curbs on mortgage lenders. No more

:28:14.:28:22.

than 15% of any number of total mortgages should be at or above 4.5

:28:23.:28:29.

times the borrower's income. That was the governor of the Bank of

:28:30.:28:33.

England bringing in curbs on mortgage lending to take heat out of

:28:34.:28:37.

the market especially in London and the South East. They also indicated

:28:38.:28:41.

on the Today programme that interest rates would not go above 3% even by

:28:42.:28:47.

2017. That is the end of the programme for today. Thank you to

:28:48.:28:53.

our guests. I will be back on Sunday on BBC One with Sunday Politics and

:28:54.:28:57.

before then on Newsnight. Try to join me. Goodbye.

:28:58.:29:02.

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