26/10/2015 Daily Politics


26/10/2015

Jo Coburn with the latest news from Westminster, including coverage of the row over cuts to tax credits and discussion of the effect of the migrant crisis on road hauliers.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

Chancellor George Osborne is said to be in listening mode,

:00:40.:00:41.

but will that stop peers killing off his cuts to tax credits?

:00:42.:00:46.

Members of the House of Lords are on their way back to Westminster

:00:47.:00:49.

where later today they'll have to decide whether to derail the plans.

:00:50.:00:53.

If they do, will it set them on constitutional collision course?

:00:54.:00:58.

John Bercow is loved by some, loathed by others.

:00:59.:01:01.

We know he likes to scold naughty ministers, but has he

:01:02.:01:03.

The Calais migrant crisis has slipped out of the news

:01:04.:01:10.

but hauliers say its threatening trade and their livelihoods.

:01:11.:01:14.

We'll be talking to one MP who's calling for action.

:01:15.:01:18.

And it's been the stationery of choice at Parliament for centuries,

:01:19.:01:22.

but campaigners want plans to use paper instead of vellum, that's made

:01:23.:01:25.

All that in the next hour, and with us for the whole

:01:26.:01:37.

of the programme today, I'm joined by the Conservative MP Paul Scully

:01:38.:01:40.

So, let's talk first today about the government's changes to

:01:41.:01:47.

tax credits, which independent researcher say will cost three

:01:48.:01:49.

Having spent weeks insisting that there will be no change to the

:01:50.:01:57.

policy despite growing criticism from inside and outside the

:01:58.:02:01.

Conservative Party, George Osborne is now said to be in listening mode.

:02:02.:02:06.

But will that sway peers this afternoon as they vote on a series

:02:07.:02:09.

of motions that could postpone or kill off the tax credit changes?

:02:10.:02:13.

And if they do try to block the plans, will it lead to

:02:14.:02:16.

Well, here's the minister Matt Hancock

:02:17.:02:19.

These changes are important and are part of a broader package to make

:02:20.:02:31.

sure that the country can live within its means and we move from a

:02:32.:02:37.

low wage, high welfare, high tax economy to a higher pay, lower

:02:38.:02:42.

welfare, lower tax society. We don't take money away from people and give

:02:43.:02:47.

it back to them so much and benefits and we make sure that the country

:02:48.:02:51.

can pay its way. This has been debated three times in the House of

:02:52.:02:55.

Commons and passed each time with a majority bigger than the government

:02:56.:02:59.

majority. It would be unprecedented for the House of Lords to block a

:03:00.:03:04.

motion like this that is so central to the budget of the country.

:03:05.:03:06.

Well, let's find out more about this afternoon's vote from

:03:07.:03:08.

our political correspondent Chris Mason who's out enjoying a mild

:03:09.:03:11.

Lucky old shoe, Chris. Listening to Matt Hancock, this has been passed

:03:12.:03:25.

in the Commons, but could it be defeated by the Lords? Yes, it

:03:26.:03:29.

could, and that is why there is the drama around the proceedings today.

:03:30.:03:34.

There is a sea of Westminster jargon to paddle through. Talk of statutory

:03:35.:03:39.

instruments and kill motions. One of my bosses were saying that I should

:03:40.:03:45.

be fined for using phrases like that, but you can forget those

:03:46.:03:50.

terms, because it boils down to two things. One, the millions of people

:03:51.:03:54.

who could be affected by the government's changes, and secondly,

:03:55.:03:59.

the sense of drama around today's debate in the House of Lords. There

:04:00.:04:02.

is always drama around tight, unpredictable votes, and

:04:03.:04:08.

particularly in the Lords where, frankly, people are more

:04:09.:04:12.

independently minded. There are crossbenchers and independent peers

:04:13.:04:17.

who are not whipped. They are only their own bosses. There is a sense

:04:18.:04:23.

of uncertainty about precisely what will happen as the series of motions

:04:24.:04:27.

are put forward and we find out at around eight o'clock tonight what

:04:28.:04:31.

will happen. What about this phrase that the Chancellor is in listening

:04:32.:04:36.

mode? Is it meaningless? Or does it indicate a change in stance by

:04:37.:04:42.

George Osborne? It's a corking phrase, because it creates an image

:04:43.:04:47.

of him walking round the rest of the time with a pair of ear defenders

:04:48.:04:50.

on. What does it mean speaking to people here? I think it is keen that

:04:51.:04:55.

the Conservatives are keen to push out a message that they get the

:04:56.:04:59.

scale of concern articulated about the changes, the scale on their own

:05:00.:05:03.

benches in the Commons, the scale of concern amongst the press that are

:05:04.:05:06.

normally supportive of the Conservative Party. Even like the

:05:07.:05:13.

Spectator. They are entertaining the idea that they can do something to

:05:14.:05:16.

mitigate the effect of these changes, possibly in the Autumn

:05:17.:05:21.

Statement, the mini budget in a month's time. We do not have any

:05:22.:05:26.

detail and there is no meat on the bones but that appears to be where

:05:27.:05:29.

they are heading. At the same time, they are making a real noise about

:05:30.:05:33.

what they see as the constitutional crisis. If the Lords were to throw

:05:34.:05:39.

out something that has been back three times by the elected House of

:05:40.:05:43.

Commons which adds to the sense of drama as we look ahead to the

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debates this afternoon. Chris Mason, thank you.

:05:46.:05:47.

So we're told that George Osborne is in listening mode, and there's been

:05:48.:05:50.

speculation for weeks that he may do something in next month's Spending

:05:51.:05:53.

Review and Autumn Statement to help those affected by the tax credit

:05:54.:05:56.

changes, which are designed to save ?4.5 billion.

:05:57.:05:58.

Well, to talk about what options he might have

:05:59.:06:00.

we're joined by James Brown from the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

:06:01.:06:07.

Does he actually have, George Osborne, any wriggle room if he

:06:08.:06:14.

wants to save ?4.5 billion? There are different things you can do to

:06:15.:06:18.

save that amount of money. He could increase taxes on a different group

:06:19.:06:22.

and reduce benefits on a different group or reduce departmental

:06:23.:06:25.

spending by more. But if you are looking to take a similar amount of

:06:26.:06:29.

money from a similar group of people, there are not many other

:06:30.:06:33.

options you can look to. These tax credits are well targeted on a

:06:34.:06:37.

particular group. What about the claims that the government and

:06:38.:06:41.

ministers keep making that, overall, when you take in people coming out

:06:42.:06:47.

of tax and increasing thresholds and wages going up, is it true to say

:06:48.:06:50.

that most of these people affected by the tax credit system will be

:06:51.:06:54.

better off? No, I don't think it's likely these people will be better

:06:55.:06:59.

off overall. These are very big reductions in tax credit entitlement

:07:00.:07:04.

is coming in next April, averaging around ?1100 per household. Only

:07:05.:07:10.

about two fifths of these households contain somebody paid less than the

:07:11.:07:16.

living wage, for example. For a lot of these people there won't be

:07:17.:07:20.

anything else that is offsetting the reduction in tax credits. Paul

:07:21.:07:25.

Scully, there you have heard it from the Institute for Fiscal Studies,

:07:26.:07:27.

most people will not be better off, even when you take on other

:07:28.:07:33.

factors. I disagree. They are wrong at the Institute for Fiscal Studies?

:07:34.:07:39.

Over the parliament, people will be ?2400 per year better off. Is that

:07:40.:07:46.

true? Going further forward it could be possible that further increases

:07:47.:07:49.

in earnings might mean that by 2020 some people will be better off then

:07:50.:07:52.

than they are currently. But not all? You can construct examples.

:07:53.:07:58.

There are a lot of other things going on. Let's take your point that

:07:59.:08:03.

some of them would be better off by 2020, we are in 2015 and the changes

:08:04.:08:08.

coming next April, so those people will all, by your own calculations,

:08:09.:08:13.

be worse off for a period of time. There is no easy way of doing the

:08:14.:08:18.

changes we have to do. We know we have to take ?12 billion out of the

:08:19.:08:21.

welfare budget overall and this is an important cornerstone of it.

:08:22.:08:25.

There are important and difficult decisions to be made, but what we

:08:26.:08:29.

need to do is look at it as an overall package. We talked about the

:08:30.:08:33.

end of the parliament, but we are also talking about the national

:08:34.:08:35.

living wage coming in and we also have the increase in tax thresholds

:08:36.:08:41.

as well, where you start paying tax. There are other changes to

:08:42.:08:49.

childcare. You heard some of the tweaks and proposals the Chancellor

:08:50.:08:52.

could take to further mitigate the changes. Would you like to see him

:08:53.:08:57.

do that? I would like to continue to see him to listen. It will be for

:08:58.:09:04.

him to then look at the specifics. I have heard from EIF S and from a

:09:05.:09:07.

number of other different think tanks and economists and they are

:09:08.:09:12.

coming up with different figures. It would be nice for him to come up

:09:13.:09:18.

with different figures, go away and consider the things that the

:09:19.:09:21.

organisations have said. So you would like to see tweaks to it? What

:09:22.:09:26.

I don't want to see is the whole thing derailed by an unprecedented

:09:27.:09:29.

move in the House of Lords this afternoon. That is crucial. We are

:09:30.:09:33.

going to come onto that. In a sense, do you agree with reform to the tax

:09:34.:09:40.

credit system? That it should be cut on principle anyway? I think it is

:09:41.:09:43.

totally the wrong priority. They're all sorts of ways to make savings in

:09:44.:09:47.

the welfare system. The money we spend on housing benefit is a huge

:09:48.:09:50.

issue and we should bring it down. The money we spend on inheritance

:09:51.:09:54.

tax. There are number of different ways that we put it forward to

:09:55.:09:58.

change spending. These are people at the bottom trying to struggle to

:09:59.:10:02.

make ends meet week by week, day by day, and these are the people the

:10:03.:10:05.

Tories said they were standing up for. They are totally at odds with

:10:06.:10:09.

their policy and rhetoric and have got themselves in knots. I'm glad to

:10:10.:10:12.

hear George Osborne is listening, but the wall of noise from the Sun

:10:13.:10:17.

newspaper, the Tory backbenches is overwhelming and he has to change

:10:18.:10:21.

his mind. How much has the tax credit builder gone up since it was

:10:22.:10:27.

introduced? I think at the back end of 1997 we were spending 8 billion

:10:28.:10:31.

per year -- the tax credit bill gone up. Currently it is about ?30

:10:32.:10:38.

billion. It goes to show how much this area of support for low-income

:10:39.:10:41.

families through these tax credits has been increasing, particularly

:10:42.:10:46.

during the last Labour period in government. These changes will only

:10:47.:10:51.

slightly role that back, but even so, you still have a lot of people

:10:52.:10:55.

losing out on quite a lot of money from the changes. Would you support

:10:56.:11:00.

John McDonnell bringing in higher taxes, that is how he would go in on

:11:01.:11:06.

covering the tax credit Bill? There are people better off to foot the

:11:07.:11:12.

bill. We should look at inheritance tax. There is a whole raft of

:11:13.:11:16.

measures. To hit those people who work in day in, day out, at the

:11:17.:11:21.

NHS, school assistance, these are the ones we are clobbering and it is

:11:22.:11:27.

deeply unfair. When we took over the Coalition Government in 2010, nine

:11:28.:11:31.

out of ten families were reliant on tax credits. How can it be that we

:11:32.:11:36.

have created a system where people are paying tax then getting a pat on

:11:37.:11:40.

the head and getting money back from the state? It's important in terms

:11:41.:11:46.

of changing the economy from a low pay, high tax economy through to a

:11:47.:11:53.

higher pay, low tax economy where people can keep more of their own

:11:54.:11:57.

money. Do you think the tax credit system is wrong in principle? That

:11:58.:12:02.

it is wrong to subsidise, if you like, some employers by paying

:12:03.:12:04.

people through the tax credit system? So would you like to see a

:12:05.:12:12.

dismantled altogether? By changing it, you do it gradually, but you get

:12:13.:12:17.

a ripple effect. You have big employers like Asda, Tesco, the sort

:12:18.:12:23.

of companies who are increasing their salaries now and not waiting

:12:24.:12:27.

for the national living wage to come in next year. That will be a big

:12:28.:12:30.

benefit to people, because at the end of the day has to be work and

:12:31.:12:34.

getting into gainful employment that pays. Just finally, the government

:12:35.:12:40.

talks about ?12 billion worth of cuts to the welfare bill. Where does

:12:41.:12:45.

the rest of it come from? The other changes they are bringing in the

:12:46.:12:50.

benefits are being frozen for the next four years which gives you

:12:51.:12:55.

another four or ?5 billion. There are cuts to tax credits for new

:12:56.:13:00.

claimants, so the two child limit introduced from April 20 17th. --

:13:01.:13:08.

April 2017. They also reducing social rents to reduce the housing

:13:09.:13:09.

benefit bill. Thank you very much. So yesterday

:13:10.:13:12.

the education secretary Nicky Morgan warned peers not to block tax credit

:13:13.:13:13.

changes which have been agreed by MPs, warning the move would be

:13:14.:13:16.

"constitutionally unprecedented". Well, the Liberal Democrats,

:13:17.:13:19.

who have 111 peers, are trying to We're joined now by one of them,

:13:20.:13:22.

Susan Kramer. Welcome back to the Daily Politics.

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Your party has eight MPs, you spectacularly lost the general

:13:38.:13:42.

election. Why do you think it is acceptable to block the legislation

:13:43.:13:46.

of the party who has won a majority? We have a 2 house parliament and

:13:47.:13:50.

there is a significant and important role for the House of Lords. In the

:13:51.:13:53.

last Parliament, my party tried to change it to an elected house and

:13:54.:13:57.

both Conservatives and Labour came back with a message that you can

:13:58.:14:01.

carry out your responsibilities on an unelected basis. We are carrying

:14:02.:14:06.

out our responsibilities. Our job is to view and scrutinise and revise

:14:07.:14:09.

legislation, to challenge the government. But not to block it?

:14:10.:14:15.

Where is your mandate to block legislation and actually tried to

:14:16.:14:19.

kill it off altogether? You cannot amend, as you know, with statutory

:14:20.:14:24.

instrument, so we are asked to approve or not approve. I recommend

:14:25.:14:29.

that we do not approve this. We have 3 million people on tax credits you

:14:30.:14:32.

are going to be just clobbered by this. You have heard the numbers. It

:14:33.:14:37.

is very real. The mitigations, which are far from being complete, they

:14:38.:14:42.

come in later. We have families who are going to have to look at feeding

:14:43.:14:47.

the kids cereal for dinner, turning the heating. This is really serious

:14:48.:14:51.

and we have to stand up those people. That is one of the jobs of

:14:52.:14:54.

the House of Lords. Are doing our job. You say that, but you mentioned

:14:55.:14:59.

that the Liberal Democrats fighting an unelected House of Lords for

:15:00.:15:02.

years and now you are using the leave at your disposal to block the

:15:03.:15:05.

will of the elected government. There is a hypocrisy there, isn't

:15:06.:15:06.

there? If the other parties refuse to

:15:07.:15:14.

reform, we must work with what we have got, and what we have got is

:15:15.:15:18.

what we are going to use. It is absolutely crucial that we do. This

:15:19.:15:23.

is not a constitutional SU. The Conservatives have lost the issue on

:15:24.:15:26.

tax credits, so they are fairly desperately trying to turn it into a

:15:27.:15:30.

constitutional issue, because they think they can have a better

:15:31.:15:33.

conversation there than they can when you actually talk about the

:15:34.:15:37.

realities of the tax credit problem. This is a bill. If we can't act in

:15:38.:15:44.

the House of Lords on bills that have some money consequences, there

:15:45.:15:47.

would be almost nothing at all we could ever look at, we could ever

:15:48.:15:49.

scrutinise, we could ever revise and we could ever challenge. It really

:15:50.:15:53.

is important to recognise this is a welfare measure. If you take that as

:15:54.:15:57.

a welfare measure, then it does give you some ground to oppose, but

:15:58.:16:03.

opposing rather than blocking. You say the only option open to you is

:16:04.:16:07.

to kill it off, this statutory instrument, but you could join with

:16:08.:16:11.

Labour. They are working to delay and asking the government to review,

:16:12.:16:15.

so there is an alternative. The fatal measure we have brought in is

:16:16.:16:20.

much cleaner, simpler. It doesn't stop the government acting, it says

:16:21.:16:23.

to the government you can't do exactly this, go away and think

:16:24.:16:26.

about it, and it sounds like that is finally persuading this government

:16:27.:16:29.

that has been refusing to even listen. I hope very much that it is

:16:30.:16:34.

listening and thinking now it is facing this action in the House of

:16:35.:16:39.

Lords. But it is a clean measure and then the government can go away,

:16:40.:16:41.

think again and come back with something new. We are not partisan

:16:42.:16:46.

on this. If that isn't sustained, as the cleanest way to do it, then we

:16:47.:16:51.

will obviously support the Labour motion for delay. Susan Kramer, bear

:16:52.:16:57.

with us, she has a point, this is a welfare measure, not a strictly

:16:58.:17:01.

money measure, which is how the Conservatives are trying to justify

:17:02.:17:04.

that the Lords should just accept it, or revise it, but basically

:17:05.:17:08.

approve it. It is a welfare measure, it is affecting people on welfare,

:17:09.:17:12.

and they then do have a right to kill it off. It is a money measure,

:17:13.:17:19.

in that it is ?4.4 billion that is part of the money we are spending

:17:20.:17:22.

more than we are bringing in as a country. Whilst we are trying to

:17:23.:17:28.

change and reduce the deficit and ultimately reduce debt, these are

:17:29.:17:30.

the sort of measures that we have got to bring in, financial measures,

:17:31.:17:33.

we have got to bring into reverse this. Lord Butler himself, one of

:17:34.:17:40.

the former cabinet secretary sits with Ernest Kramer in the House of

:17:41.:17:44.

Lords, said this is an unprecedented measure. A financial instrument that

:17:45.:17:48.

the Lords should not be rejecting in this way. They will argue that it

:17:49.:17:51.

wasn't in your manifesto, and the government has made it very clear

:17:52.:17:55.

that what was in the manifesto was a commitment to cut welfare by ?12

:17:56.:18:00.

billion. Do you regret now not stating before the election where it

:18:01.:18:04.

might have come from, particularly since the Prime Minister indicated

:18:05.:18:08.

it wouldn't be from tax credits? We have given a lot of discussion

:18:09.:18:11.

throughout the election campaign on welfare reform, and we have had a

:18:12.:18:15.

lot of time since the election to talk about this as well. There are a

:18:16.:18:19.

number of instruments available to the House of Lords, of which the

:18:20.:18:22.

bishops have come up with a motion of regret, I believe it is called.

:18:23.:18:26.

There are plenty of other options available. However, I would like to

:18:27.:18:30.

see this go through uninterrupted by the House of Lords, and then George

:18:31.:18:34.

Osborne will discuss the fact that he is in listening mode, if you want

:18:35.:18:37.

to make your case, continue making the case and then do it at that

:18:38.:18:40.

point rather than overstepping the mark constitutionally. The other

:18:41.:18:44.

thing, Susan Kramer, this is the third cut the tax credits over the

:18:45.:18:48.

last five years. Not the first one. The other two came when your party

:18:49.:18:53.

was in coalition. We did not hear any outrage from Lib Dem peers then.

:18:54.:18:57.

We very much protected those who were among the most probable, that

:18:58.:19:00.

was a very important role people played in the coalition. People have

:19:01.:19:05.

been shocked, they didn't see this coming, this very big blow to people

:19:06.:19:09.

who are the working poor, and that is because we protected them while

:19:10.:19:12.

we had a say in government. They are being exposed now. It is crucial we

:19:13.:19:17.

protect them in that is frankly a welfare measure, and we need to

:19:18.:19:22.

stand up today and do that. I find that startling, I am glad the Lib

:19:23.:19:26.

Dems have found their conscience after five years of nodding and

:19:27.:19:31.

supporting through welfare cuts. I'm disappointed the Tories have tried

:19:32.:19:34.

to rush this through, when we could have had it in primary legislation

:19:35.:19:37.

and have a much better debate. I am glad this we have put down an

:19:38.:19:41.

amendment to give George Osborne time again to listen to the very

:19:42.:19:44.

strong views from his backbenchers, and across both houses, to say this

:19:45.:19:47.

is not right. This is hitting the people who need our support the most

:19:48.:19:52.

and we need to think again. John McDonnell said if there is a

:19:53.:19:57.

reversal, a complete reversal, which is highly unlikely, by George

:19:58.:19:59.

Osborne, then he promises him personally and publicly he would not

:20:00.:20:05.

attack him for it. Really? Labour is never going to mention it again? We

:20:06.:20:09.

will be delighted, because all I can think is the constituents back home

:20:10.:20:16.

who will be decimated by this. I am quite happy to sit quietly if he

:20:17.:20:18.

does that. Let's wait and see. The question for today is which

:20:19.:20:24.

of these parliamentarians has turned down an invitation to appear

:20:25.:20:28.

on this year's At the end of the show Anna and Paul

:20:29.:20:30.

will give us the correct answer. You haven't been asked, then?

:20:31.:20:51.

Definitely not. A sort of sigh of relief there.

:20:52.:20:52.

So we know the vote on tax credits will be causing a stir today, but

:20:53.:20:56.

there are plenty of other stories bubbling under here at Westminster.

:20:57.:20:58.

In a moment, we'll speak to two journalists who

:20:59.:21:01.

know how to add more froth to their stories than a barista

:21:02.:21:03.

But first, let's take a look at some of the big events which will

:21:04.:21:12.

be keeping MPs in the building behind them busy this week.

:21:13.:21:15.

Today, MPs vote on the final version of the Finance Bill, which enshrines

:21:16.:21:18.

into law the measures outlined in the 2015 summer budget.

:21:19.:21:20.

On Tuesday, the Commons takes its final vote on the Welfare Reform

:21:21.:21:25.

and Work Bill, which provides for significant changes to welfare

:21:26.:21:30.

benefits, tax credits, and social housing levels - amounting to around

:21:31.:21:33.

70% of the government's planned ?12 billion welfare cuts.

:21:34.:21:36.

On Wednesday it's the latest edition of Prime Minister's Questions.

:21:37.:21:42.

David Cameron's on a trip to Iceland that day, so squaring off

:21:43.:21:45.

at the despatch boxes in their PMQs debuts will be Foreign Secretary

:21:46.:21:47.

Philip Hammond and Shadow First Secretary of State Angela Eagle.

:21:48.:21:51.

Later on Wednesday Labour are staging an opposition day debate

:21:52.:21:54.

in the Commons to highlight controversy over planned changes to

:21:55.:21:56.

On Thursday, we'll be talking about tax credits again, as MPs

:21:57.:22:03.

debate a motion tabled by Labour's Frank Field- he's the chairman

:22:04.:22:06.

of the Work and Pensions committee - calling on George Osborne to

:22:07.:22:09.

And on Friday, the Scottish Labour Party meet in Perth

:22:10.:22:16.

for the first day of their annual conference, with Jeremy Corbyn set

:22:17.:22:19.

We're joined now by Lucy Fisher from the Times and Jim Waterson

:22:20.:22:28.

Well, both of you, a busy week in Parliament, as it often is, but

:22:29.:22:37.

let's talk about some other issues that have been discussed over the

:22:38.:22:40.

weekend and will impact the week ahead. Looking at deselection. The

:22:41.:22:45.

story over the weekend, reassurances from the Shadow Chancellor John

:22:46.:22:49.

McDonnell and moderate MPs worried about deselection, left-wing

:22:50.:22:53.

activists he says will not be able to force them out. Will that

:22:54.:22:57.

reassure you enough? I don't think it will. Head of the PLP committee

:22:58.:23:04.

gave a reassurance, John McDonnell, yesterday gave a reassurance, but it

:23:05.:23:09.

is not really up to the central party if these spin off local

:23:10.:23:12.

groups, local Labour parties have influxes of large number of members

:23:13.:23:16.

who are very far left, then it is not really up to the Central command

:23:17.:23:20.

to say what they cannot can't do when selection comes up. What about

:23:21.:23:26.

Frank Field's intervention, Jim Watterson? He has borne such a move

:23:27.:23:29.

would be met with a mass rebellion within the party, with MPs backing

:23:30.:23:33.

their ousted colleagues in by-elections in defiance of party

:23:34.:23:37.

rules. It all sounds like party discipline is crumbling here. If you

:23:38.:23:42.

were threatened with being removed by your job from a few people who

:23:43.:23:45.

had turned up late in the day, you might feel unhappy but that is what

:23:46.:23:48.

MPs are having to deal with. If you have got these new members coming

:23:49.:23:51.

in, then the membership is programming and the MPs for the hole

:23:52.:23:57.

are not, then it is quite hard to replicate what is going on because

:23:58.:24:00.

the membership really do want pro carbon candidates. We spoke to

:24:01.:24:05.

Momentum, and what they have said as they are not going to back row

:24:06.:24:09.

selections but if a candidate steps down, if an MP is going to move on,

:24:10.:24:13.

they would expect to play an active role in choosing a new candidate

:24:14.:24:16.

because they frankly make up the vast majority of the people who

:24:17.:24:18.

would have a say in such matters now. Should moderate Labour MPs,

:24:19.:24:25.

those who don't necessarily support Jeremy Corbyn, just fall into line

:24:26.:24:33.

and support their party's selection? This is greatly exaggerated. My

:24:34.:24:38.

membership has doubled in my constituency and I welcome that. I

:24:39.:24:42.

have tried to meet and speak to as many of those members as possible

:24:43.:24:45.

and the idea that they are all somehow slaves to Jeremy Corbyn and

:24:46.:24:48.

can't bear the Labour Party as it is an throw out everything we stood

:24:49.:24:51.

for, a lot of them have got involved for the first time because suddenly,

:24:52.:24:56.

they had been Labour supporters and had Labour values for all of their

:24:57.:24:59.

lives but now there was an opportunity to engage. So why are

:25:00.:25:02.

they worried, Frank Field supporting up and saying he was support any of

:25:03.:25:06.

his colleagues being ousted in this way, they are loaded is going on.

:25:07.:25:12.

People need to calm down. We are way out of an election at the moment, we

:25:13.:25:16.

have a job to represent our constituents and stand up to this

:25:17.:25:19.

government. At the end of the day we have always been a broad church. My

:25:20.:25:23.

plea is for respect on all sides of the parties. The tradition on the

:25:24.:25:27.

right is just as valid as the tradition on the left, no 1's values

:25:28.:25:30.

are any more holy than anyone else's in the party. We need to win

:25:31.:25:34.

in 2020 because there is nothing you can do about tax credits or

:25:35.:25:38.

steelwork shutting down if you are in opposition. Let's just continue

:25:39.:25:43.

with this a little bit longer. Simon Danczuk, who would consume himself a

:25:44.:25:48.

moderate, -- consider himself a moderate, perhaps on the right of

:25:49.:25:52.

the Labour Party, has talked about himself being a stalking horse in

:25:53.:25:56.

next May's elections, how likely do you think that will be? I think it

:25:57.:26:00.

will be very unlikely. The problem is for those moderate MPs talking

:26:01.:26:04.

about a possible coup, even now, before Christmas or after May, if

:26:05.:26:09.

the local Welsh, Scottish elections have a poor result for Labour. I

:26:10.:26:14.

can't really say anything to the fact that most should the party

:26:15.:26:20.

backs Jeremy Corbyn. He does have this overwhelming mandate, so I

:26:21.:26:25.

think it would be very unlikely that any Labour MPs would back Simon

:26:26.:26:30.

Danczuk to make that move. Just finally on Chilcott, it has been

:26:31.:26:32.

reported we will get the timings of that report at the end of the week.

:26:33.:26:37.

Are you excited? Given that Chilcott was commissioned in 2009, there will

:26:38.:26:41.

now be children in their second or 30 at school who were not even born

:26:42.:26:45.

when it started. I will believe it when I see it, but we have already

:26:46.:26:49.

had Tony Blair out doing his pre-briefing on this, and the one

:26:50.:26:53.

thing I can be certain of is that almost no one will be happy with

:26:54.:26:56.

what it concludes. Yes, you can almost rely on that, can't you?

:26:57.:26:57.

Thank you to both of. Now,

:26:58.:27:00.

who remembers the former Liberal He was once a regular

:27:01.:27:01.

on our screens, but the party's former Treasury spokesman quit

:27:02.:27:05.

the Lib Dems back in 2014 after it emerged he had commissioned

:27:06.:27:08.

polls suggesting the party would be He predicted it was heading for a

:27:09.:27:11.

"disaster" unless it changed leader. But he didn't leave

:27:12.:27:15.

off politics altogether. Before

:27:16.:27:17.

the general election it was reported that he had donated ?600,000 to 30

:27:18.:27:21.

Labour and 15 left-of-centre Lib Dem election candidates,

:27:22.:27:24.

which he described as "doing his bit to save our country from a

:27:25.:27:26.

Tory government cringing to Ukip". Well, the money didn't do the trick

:27:27.:27:33.

for most of those candidates. Only six of the 45 made it

:27:34.:27:36.

into the Commons. The peer has now announced he is

:27:37.:27:40.

returning to the House of Lords as a non-affiliated peer, and he's

:27:41.:27:43.

said he's coming back to campaign Welcome back. Long time no see. The

:27:44.:27:58.

private polling commissioned by you saying the Lib Dems were walking to

:27:59.:28:02.

electoral oblivion under Nick Clegg's leadership ten at the

:28:03.:28:07.

correct, so do you feel vindicated? I told you so is never a good look,

:28:08.:28:11.

and I must say the polls that I commissioned at that time did turn

:28:12.:28:16.

out to be pretty well spot on. I see Anatoly from Redcar, the Paul Blair

:28:17.:28:27.

said that Labour was going to win Turley. The polls are that Nick

:28:28.:28:32.

Clegg was just going to lose, he only just one but only by squeezing

:28:33.:28:35.

the Tory vote but that is all history now. I felt the evidence was

:28:36.:28:39.

very strong that the Lib Dems would save more seats, get more votes and

:28:40.:28:43.

do better if there had been a change of leader to Vince Cable, and I'm

:28:44.:28:48.

sorry that the party did not take my view. I don't believe we would have

:28:49.:28:53.

an overall Tory majority today, I don't think we could have done as

:28:54.:29:01.

badly. The four polls in the seats that I commissioned got the results

:29:02.:29:05.

almost dead on with Nick Clegg as the leader, and they showed that

:29:06.:29:08.

under Vince Cable the Lib Dems would have done between five and 10%

:29:09.:29:13.

better. So I think there is a good chance, Paul you are the MP for

:29:14.:29:17.

Sutton and Cheam, you beat Paul Bairstow, there is a good chance

:29:18.:29:20.

Paul Bairstow would be sitting here instead of you. We can't be sure.

:29:21.:29:24.

But the results were disastrous and studied his history now. Do you

:29:25.:29:30.

regret commissioning the research, because in the end you were accused

:29:31.:29:33.

of an attempted coup and you had to resign from the party? I didn't have

:29:34.:29:38.

to resign, didn't want to carry on if we were heading for disaster and

:29:39.:29:41.

I felt I wanted a break anyway. No, I don't regret it at all, indeed

:29:42.:29:45.

Paul Bairstow was very nice to me on the Tubes the other day, I won't say

:29:46.:29:50.

exactly what his head, but many Lib Dems probably regret that they did

:29:51.:29:53.

not stand up more firmly. That is history. I am just coming back now,

:29:54.:29:58.

I was closely involved in the first European referendum when it came in

:29:59.:30:02.

in 1975, working for Rod Jenkins at the time, and for Rod Jenkins at the

:30:03.:30:05.

time, and 40 referendum go the wrong way, so if I can help that I will.

:30:06.:30:12.

On that line about a Progressive Alliance, what you wanted to create

:30:13.:30:16.

when you gave the money to Labour candidates, Lib Dems and Caroline

:30:17.:30:19.

Lucas, but only six of the 45 made it to the Commons, was it a waste of

:30:20.:30:21.

money? I don't think it was, and I will

:30:22.:30:30.

tell you why. We stopped Ukip winning, and I was especially keen

:30:31.:30:35.

to stop them winning Boruc, which was their top target and I was

:30:36.:30:43.

helping Polly Billington. -- Thurrock. I was helping out in

:30:44.:30:47.

Thanet, the candour that there was a good third. If Labour had

:30:48.:30:52.

collapsed, Nigel Farage might have collapsed. Although the result was

:30:53.:30:54.

disappointing, it was important we stopped Ukip breaking through. Is

:30:55.:31:00.

Tim Farren the man to revive the Lib Dems? I don't want to get into the

:31:01.:31:06.

Lib Dems, I am nonparty. I am a social democrat and they are the

:31:07.:31:10.

same views I have had for 30 or 40 years. Other parties do fluctuate a

:31:11.:31:14.

lot. I wish Anna and the other Labour Party moderates well in

:31:15.:31:19.

reclaiming the party from the far left, but when I was in labour for

:31:20.:31:23.

15 years we spent a lot of time fighting people like Jeremy Corbyn

:31:24.:31:26.

and John McDonnell, and I'm afraid they are not going to get elected

:31:27.:31:30.

unless moderates reassert themselves, but it's a difficult

:31:31.:31:34.

situation at the moment. I shall let Anna comeback in on that. I agree. I

:31:35.:31:39.

am a moderate, no denying that. But we have been a broad church and

:31:40.:31:43.

Jeremy won with an overwhelming mandate and he spoke to something

:31:44.:31:46.

that people wanted. There are new people coming through. A lot of

:31:47.:31:50.

people who were involved 30 years ago who may not for me put the

:31:51.:31:53.

Labour Party values ahead of particularly strong views they have,

:31:54.:31:57.

but the priority for me is making sure we look at what the British

:31:58.:32:01.

public one. The last time I stood firm parliament was in 1983 after we

:32:02.:32:05.

founded the SDP and Labour were standing as a broad church under

:32:06.:32:08.

Michael foot and they were hammered, and I think that will happen again.

:32:09.:32:13.

I wish you luck, and I hope you reassert yourself over the next few

:32:14.:32:16.

years. You have come back to campaign on Europe in the

:32:17.:32:19.

referendum. What about the tax credits row? It is rather critical

:32:20.:32:24.

for peers like yourself, you are back in the Lords, nonparty. What

:32:25.:32:29.

will you do? There are a lot of coincidences in life. I didn't know

:32:30.:32:32.

the vote was coming up and I wanted to come back and take my seat before

:32:33.:32:36.

the committee stage of the Europe bill. Now, as it happens, I've come

:32:37.:32:40.

into the middle of this. I will be voting tonight and I will be voting

:32:41.:32:45.

for the motion to kill or block the tax credits. I am voting for the

:32:46.:32:51.

Liberal Democrats and the Labour one. There is a constitutional issue

:32:52.:32:57.

here. I do find it awkward that the Lords have to take a view on this

:32:58.:33:01.

because the Lords should have been reformed and elected long ago. In

:33:02.:33:03.

the last Parliament we fought hard for it and there was a vote and then

:33:04.:33:08.

the Conservatives bottled out. It is awkward. It is a tricky thing to

:33:09.:33:12.

vote on. But I do think, particularly given the fact that the

:33:13.:33:17.

constitutional doctrine, in a manifesto, is quite clearly taking

:33:18.:33:23.

away money from working people was not in the Tory manifesto and it was

:33:24.:33:26.

categorically denied by David Cameron so it's reasonable to ask

:33:27.:33:29.

astute make the Commons think again. That is what I will ask for.

:33:30.:33:33.

Are you still friends with Vince Cable? Very much so. He's coming for

:33:34.:33:38.

supper and we are going skiing again. We have always been friends,

:33:39.:33:45.

but there had to be a slight diplomatic cooling after what

:33:46.:33:48.

happened with Nick Clegg. But we are very good friends and we always have

:33:49.:33:49.

been. Thank you. Now,

:33:50.:33:52.

he was re-elected to the big chair at the start of this Parliament,

:33:53.:33:54.

but has something bitten Speaker He's never been shy of telling Mps

:33:55.:33:57.

when he thinks they've stepped out of line in the Commons, but lately

:33:58.:34:02.

he's also had a thing or two to say We asked Giles to find

:34:03.:34:05.

out what was going on. He waited a long time for the

:34:06.:34:18.

position to arrive but he has been in the chair a good while, and

:34:19.:34:22.

though sometimes his wife has garnered the headlines more than

:34:23.:34:25.

him, Speaker John Bercow is no shrinking violet. The Right

:34:26.:34:31.

honourable gentleman has no business scurrying out of the chamber.

:34:32.:34:39.

Order! The reaction of some MPs to that was best expressed like this.

:34:40.:34:43.

What do you think of the show so far? Rubbish! Once a boy on

:34:44.:34:51.

crackerjack, the shouting came from the audience, but now he's in charge

:34:52.:34:54.

of running the Parliamentary show, he takes on all comers. The word

:34:55.:35:01.

conman is frankly unparliamentary. Order! The Prime Minister is a man

:35:02.:35:08.

of great versatility in the use of language, and it is a bit below the

:35:09.:35:13.

level. Be quiet. If you can't be quiet, get out. You are adding

:35:14.:35:17.

nothing is abstracting a lot. It is rude, stupid and pompous and it

:35:18.:35:21.

needs to stop. What he should not do is fail to communicate with me in

:35:22.:35:26.

advance, ignore the convention and greatly exceed his allotted time. It

:35:27.:35:31.

is, I'm afraid, discourteous and incompetent and it must happen

:35:32.:35:36.

again. There is a badge of honour and it is called BBB. We call it

:35:37.:35:43.

bashed by Burke oh, and it became a badge of honour -- bashed by Bercow.

:35:44.:35:49.

Sometimes you have a bad day and maybe in John's case, he's had a few

:35:50.:35:56.

by the looks of it. They have a right to be deeply insulted but they

:35:57.:36:03.

tend to be trivial figures and the capacity to take larger French is

:36:04.:36:06.

often a sign of triviality. Can I say to the Prime Minister's PPS, his

:36:07.:36:12.

role is to nod his head in the appropriate places, and to fetch and

:36:13.:36:16.

carry notes. No noise required. But the speaker likes to make some

:36:17.:36:23.

noise, even offering opinion on HS2. It is undesirable and an unnecessary

:36:24.:36:28.

project. Or even human rights to the Chinese president. No country can

:36:29.:36:33.

exist in isolation, from all matters, from international law to

:36:34.:36:36.

individual liberty. For his supporters, being forthright is no

:36:37.:36:41.

bar to delivery. He is one of the best speakers in modern times, in my

:36:42.:36:46.

opinion, because he keeps it moving along and he holds the executive to

:36:47.:36:50.

account and if there is a minister who has questions to answer, he will

:36:51.:36:53.

be at the dispatch box answering them. The fact that he is a

:36:54.:36:59.

naturally rude man doesn't matter. Well, we're joined now by

:37:00.:37:00.

the journalist Bobby Friedman, he's are -- is he in a bad mood? He is

:37:01.:37:11.

always in a bad mood, really. You can't charge him with

:37:12.:37:13.

inconsistency, then. There has been a flare-up over the last few weeks

:37:14.:37:18.

but you see these from time to time and he tends to get a bit spiffy

:37:19.:37:24.

with people and he does have quite a temper. You see it coming out from

:37:25.:37:31.

time to time, and you see it coming out with Tory MPs, maybe not a

:37:32.:37:35.

surprise. But that is what you get with John Bercow. What is driving

:37:36.:37:41.

that, if you yourself admit that it is directed at Tory MPs, rightly or

:37:42.:37:47.

wrongly? Is it revenge? I think it is revenge and there is a real

:37:48.:37:51.

personal hatred here. A lot of Tory MPs would say that John Bercow is

:37:52.:37:55.

quite a good speaker. It is him personally do they do not like. It

:37:56.:38:00.

is a mutual feeling. John Bercow and David Cameron do not like each other

:38:01.:38:05.

at all. I cannot repeat some of the words used by either side to

:38:06.:38:08.

describe each other on TV at this time of day. But that is the general

:38:09.:38:13.

sense you get with that relationship, and it's not good. It

:38:14.:38:18.

is, rather than him in the role, it is that personal amity. That does

:38:19.:38:24.

seem to be displayed on occasion -- Eminem T. Do you think the

:38:25.:38:27.

government will do anything about it. They tried at the end of the

:38:28.:38:32.

last Parliamentary session and it rather backfired. It did backfire.

:38:33.:38:38.

They got quite close. 200 MPs voted effectively to try and get rid of

:38:39.:38:42.

John Bercow. It would have ended up with his removal, and that was the

:38:43.:38:48.

plan. Not immediately, but what John Bercow has is that he's more

:38:49.:38:50.

vulnerable all the time, because David Cameron would like to get rid

:38:51.:38:53.

of him. Michael Gove would probably like to get rid of him. There is

:38:54.:38:58.

this underlying current, especially in the Conservative Party, wanting

:38:59.:39:02.

to unseat him. It didn't work before the election, but it was

:39:03.:39:06.

interesting. Back in May, we went into an election that was very

:39:07.:39:08.

uncertain and the fact the Conservative Party were prepared

:39:09.:39:12.

spend the last day parliament trying to get rid of him when they had this

:39:13.:39:15.

big campaign to fight shows the strength of feeling -- last day of

:39:16.:39:19.

Parliament. I'm sure there will be times in the future when it is the

:39:20.:39:22.

moment is right, they will try and do it. He is a Marmite character.

:39:23.:39:29.

Like all loathe him? Life is too short to loathe people, but many

:39:30.:39:33.

people in the Tory party think it is a badge of honour to be torn off a

:39:34.:39:37.

strip by the speaker. I've been on his good side. I haven't seen that

:39:38.:39:41.

Crackerjack footage before. It's a shame that the house does not sit on

:39:42.:39:49.

Friday at 525. We heard in the film that he has been a very progressive

:39:50.:39:53.

speaker and has encouraged members to stand up, get their questions in.

:39:54.:39:58.

He has extended question Time on Wednesday to incorporate that. Has

:39:59.:40:02.

he been a good thing? I'm a fan of his. He has made Parliament more

:40:03.:40:06.

open and accessible for people. Getting schools and young people

:40:07.:40:10.

involved in Parliament. He's also made it more family friendly in

:40:11.:40:13.

terms of the working hours. I am a big fan. He is right to hold the

:40:14.:40:18.

government to account. He has given us plenty of opportunities. I find

:40:19.:40:22.

it frustrating as a new MP that it's a struggle to get your voice heard.

:40:23.:40:26.

There are 650 bus and everyone is trying to battle to bring the voice

:40:27.:40:30.

of their constituency to the chamber -- 650 of us. Would you be as big

:40:31.:40:34.

fan if he'd talk to you the same way as savage -- Sajid Javid? That did

:40:35.:40:42.

seem to overstep the mark in many people's mind. Maybe I am jaded on

:40:43.:40:48.

this position because my own view and how he has letters down over the

:40:49.:40:54.

steel issue. -- let us down. He is right to hold as academy has to be

:40:55.:40:57.

firm sometimes. He is a good referee. Nobody necessarily likes

:40:58.:41:03.

one. -- he is right to hold us to account. There will always be

:41:04.:41:06.

different views on how you handle debates in the House of Commons.

:41:07.:41:10.

What about his role in the recent visit of the President of China?

:41:11.:41:14.

There were thinly veiled criticisms directed at the Chinese president,

:41:15.:41:18.

rightly or wrongly. Is it the role of the speaker to do that? I'm not

:41:19.:41:23.

sure it is. In the last few weeks we have seen a few steps from John

:41:24.:41:27.

Bercow trying to move out of the impartiality. On schools funding, he

:41:28.:41:33.

signed a letter. That was quite a substantial move. HS2, and we saw

:41:34.:41:37.

the clip of him talking about it, and if you are the MP for

:41:38.:41:42.

Buckinghamshire. I think that is understandable because it is a

:41:43.:41:46.

constituency issue. On school funding, that is straying. But John

:41:47.:41:49.

Bercow likes the rough-and-tumble politics and I think he has his

:41:50.:41:54.

sights fixed, and he said he would stand down by 2019, and I'm not sure

:41:55.:41:58.

if he will, but as we get towards their evil be like a US president in

:41:59.:42:05.

the last few years -- as we get to wards there he will be like. Do you

:42:06.:42:12.

think he has strayed too far, such as signing up with the Tory MPs for

:42:13.:42:16.

rewriting the funding for schools? With the China situation he does

:42:17.:42:21.

stray into causing a diplomatic incident every now and again. Is

:42:22.:42:28.

that wrong? Possibly. I commend him for his work on human rights, as my

:42:29.:42:32.

father was born in Burma, and he has a long history of fighting for human

:42:33.:42:37.

rights over there. You can strayed, but the work he does the fact he

:42:38.:42:44.

highlights so many issues is no thing. Thank you.

:42:45.:42:46.

Now, hauliers have designated this as "National Lorry Week".

:42:47.:42:48.

But they're warning that the escalating migrant crisis

:42:49.:42:50.

in Calais is preventing the movement of goods, and threatening

:42:51.:42:52.

There are now an estimated 7,000 migrants camped in Northern France,

:42:53.:43:02.

and at least 16 have died in or near the Channel Tunnel since the

:43:03.:43:05.

summer, as they become increasingly desperate to get into the UK.

:43:06.:43:09.

The Road Haulage Association says the industry is suffering because

:43:10.:43:12.

of intimidation of drivers and attacks on vehicles by migrants,

:43:13.:43:17.

and says many smaller family-run firms could be put out of business.

:43:18.:43:21.

Well, we can speak now to the Labour MP Rob Flello, he's chairman

:43:22.:43:24.

of the all-party parliamentary group on freight transport.

:43:25.:43:32.

Welcome to the Daily Politics. How would you describe the situation in

:43:33.:43:39.

Calais? The situation in Calais is really desperate. If you're a

:43:40.:43:42.

professional driver trying to get either into the UK or out of the UK,

:43:43.:43:48.

you face intimidation and threats, people brandishing knives, damaging

:43:49.:43:51.

your vehicle. Breaking into your vehicle. It's really serious at the

:43:52.:43:55.

moment. It has been escalating and not getting better over recent weeks

:43:56.:43:59.

and months. Are there enough measures that the government have

:44:00.:44:01.

announced to protect lorry drivers with a secure waiting area? Will

:44:02.:44:07.

that change the situation dramatically? Not at all. It is

:44:08.:44:12.

farcical, unfortunately. There are supposedly secure waiting areas at

:44:13.:44:16.

the moment and I was hearing from one man on Thursday night, at three

:44:17.:44:21.

a.m., they were in a secure area, supposedly secure area. There were

:44:22.:44:25.

no police to be seen or border Force agents, and there were hundreds and

:44:26.:44:29.

hundreds of refugees threatening them with knives, breaking into

:44:30.:44:33.

vehicles, stowing away, and every time that he and others tried to

:44:34.:44:39.

raise this with the Calais port security or with the border Force

:44:40.:44:42.

themselves, they were told it was either not in their jurisdiction

:44:43.:44:45.

area or they could not help. There was no sign of any police. This is

:44:46.:44:51.

happening night after night. No prospect of the situation improving

:44:52.:44:54.

them, unless serious measures are taken. What do you propose the

:44:55.:44:58.

government does? The government needs to stepping quickly and take

:44:59.:45:02.

urgent action, because we cannot carry on like this but what? We need

:45:03.:45:07.

to have more police presence but what we really need is places like

:45:08.:45:12.

the jungle to have those applying for refugee status have their

:45:13.:45:15.

applications processed more quickly, get that dealt with really quickly.

:45:16.:45:19.

Those who are entitled to refugee status should be granted asylum and

:45:20.:45:22.

helped on, those who aren't should be taken back to the country they

:45:23.:45:26.

are from and let's get rid of the jungle and resolve the problem once

:45:27.:45:29.

and for all rather than play at it. That is what the government, both

:45:30.:45:35.

British and French, are doing. Isn't that the problem, it needs

:45:36.:45:38.

cooperation on both sides that has not been in evidence over the last

:45:39.:45:41.

few years? This problem has been going on for years, really. It's got

:45:42.:45:46.

worse recently, and successive governments have turned a blind eye

:45:47.:45:49.

to it. Is there now a feeling that the camps will be the jungle and

:45:50.:45:51.

will be there permanently? The jungle and other camps cannot be

:45:52.:46:01.

there permanently. We have something like 2.3 million tracks going out of

:46:02.:46:05.

the port of Dover and Eurotunnel, about 90% of UK imports and exports

:46:06.:46:09.

going through. That will increase as we run up to Christmas, and at the

:46:10.:46:13.

same time refugees will become more and more desperate as their living

:46:14.:46:16.

conditions deteriorate and they're desperate to get into the UK. It has

:46:17.:46:21.

certainly been escalating over recent years. It has got far worse

:46:22.:46:26.

over recent months, and if action is not taken, for example the 13 tragic

:46:27.:46:30.

deaths of migrants in the tunnel will just get worse and the knock-on

:46:31.:46:33.

effect not just of their families but of the drivers of those trains,

:46:34.:46:38.

the situation with Hoey was being threatened will get worse, and a lot

:46:39.:46:41.

of drivers are simple as saying we have had enough, we can't take this

:46:42.:46:48.

level of threat and an timid Asian -- intimidation. They will have a

:46:49.:46:53.

real impact. Over ?1 billion already, the impact on the UK

:46:54.:46:58.

economy. Do you accept that a fuel of the rulers are in league with

:46:59.:47:02.

some of these people smugglers? There are fines but probably not

:47:03.:47:07.

enough to counter it. There are fines, but I am sure there will be a

:47:08.:47:12.

very tiny number of hauliers that are in cahoots with smugglers, but

:47:13.:47:15.

actually the vast majority don't want to believe curling up on the

:47:16.:47:21.

rain -- on the road because someone has lit a fire or worse still is

:47:22.:47:24.

lying on the road and while they are distracted like that, the locks are

:47:25.:47:26.

broken on the back of the vehicle and people are getting on board, and

:47:27.:47:30.

drivers are having to take the law into their own hands and gather

:47:31.:47:35.

together to try and, in groups, get people who are smuggled onto the

:47:36.:47:38.

back of their vehicles out. Again, going back to the situation on

:47:39.:47:41.

Thursday night, where driver after driver was working together to

:47:42.:47:45.

off-load people in the back of their vehicles, and some of whom were

:47:46.:47:48.

brandishing knives, that can't happen, that can't be allowed to

:47:49.:47:53.

happen. Are ministers listening? I don't think they are, they are

:47:54.:47:56.

paying lip service to this problem but hoping that the bad weather will

:47:57.:48:01.

make the programme -- problem go away, but it won't, it will make it

:48:02.:48:05.

worse, in terms of how more desperate the refugees will become.

:48:06.:48:10.

Now, you might have thought the party

:48:11.:48:12.

conference season had ended some time ago, but you'd be mistaken.

:48:13.:48:14.

Over the weekend Plaid Cymru held their autumn meeting in Aberystwyth.

:48:15.:48:17.

Here's their leader, Leanne Wood, making her pitch.

:48:18.:48:19.

I ask people in all communities in this country, take another look at

:48:20.:48:32.

Plaid Cymru. We have listened. We know you want a party that will lead

:48:33.:48:36.

on those issues that matter most to you. Your family, your hospital,

:48:37.:48:40.

your school, your workplace and your community. The party of Wales is far

:48:41.:48:46.

more interested in people than in processors. We have the ideas, the

:48:47.:48:55.

personnel and the vision to deliver. Leanne Wood joins us now from the

:48:56.:48:58.

Welsh assembly in Cardiff. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. You were

:48:59.:49:05.

fourth in Wales in terms of vote share in the May general elections,

:49:06.:49:08.

you got a smaller share of the vote than Ukip. How do you explain that

:49:09.:49:14.

result? Westminster elections have traditionally been more difficult

:49:15.:49:17.

for Plaid Cymru than elections to a National Assembly and we have those

:49:18.:49:23.

next May. I very much hope that our showing will be different next May.

:49:24.:49:28.

In every election we have had to date, we have done better in

:49:29.:49:32.

elections to our national institution, and what we have in

:49:33.:49:36.

Wales is by next May, we will have had 17 years of a Labour government,

:49:37.:49:42.

unbroken rule, and they have presided over decline in our

:49:43.:49:46.

economy, and a pretty poor showing in terms of outcomes, in terms of

:49:47.:49:50.

health and education, so it is time now for fresh thinking and a new

:49:51.:49:55.

approach, and it is time for a Plaid Cymru government after next May. You

:49:56.:49:59.

are criticising Labour and their mismanagement of things like public

:50:00.:50:02.

services, but what makes you think that votes that may stray from

:50:03.:50:06.

Labour will go to Plaid Cymru? They will go to the Tories and Ukip.

:50:07.:50:11.

Well, we have to put the case to people and make sure they understand

:50:12.:50:15.

that we have been working very hard in coming up with solutions to the

:50:16.:50:19.

problem that people have identified in public services, but it is up to

:50:20.:50:23.

us now to make sure that we inform people as to what it is that we want

:50:24.:50:27.

to do, and that is why it one of my messages to the party faithful this

:50:28.:50:31.

weekend in our conference in Aberystwyth was that we had to get

:50:32.:50:34.

out there now and have as many conversations in as many streets and

:50:35.:50:38.

communities as possible, up and down the country, before next May. There

:50:39.:50:44.

is no subject for hard work. Victory will not land on our laps, but with

:50:45.:50:48.

hard work we have got all the ingredients to make sure that our

:50:49.:50:53.

election campaign is a success next May. They will have seen quite a lot

:50:54.:50:58.

of Plaid Cymru in the run-up to the May general election too. I

:50:59.:51:02.

understand you're not campaigning UK wide, but the pollsters not indicate

:51:03.:51:06.

a surge for you then. You said your party is in the same place the SNP

:51:07.:51:10.

were before their breakthrough in the 2007 elections, but at this

:51:11.:51:15.

point before the 2007 elections the SNP were consistently polling at

:51:16.:51:19.

around 30% of the vote and you are polling at 18%. You are really going

:51:20.:51:25.

to have to do pound those streets. Yes, I accept we are not in exactly

:51:26.:51:30.

the same position. Not close, really. The SNP's current success

:51:31.:51:35.

started with forming a minority government back in 2007, and if we

:51:36.:51:39.

want Wales to be in the same league as Scotland and have the same clout

:51:40.:51:43.

as Scotland, then that is what we have to do here in Wales as well.

:51:44.:51:46.

And coming yes, you are right, we are going to have to pound a lot of

:51:47.:51:50.

streets and not a lot of doors, but we are in good shape and ready to do

:51:51.:51:56.

that. And I have got an excellent team of candidates, a very strong

:51:57.:51:59.

Shadow Cabinet, a very strong programme of government, and it is

:52:00.:52:03.

up to us now to get out there and explain to people what that is all

:52:04.:52:08.

about. One of your senior colleagues suggested you could win 20 seats in

:52:09.:52:13.

the assembly elections. Is that realistic? Yes, it is, nothing is

:52:14.:52:18.

impossible and nothing is inevitable about the election result either.

:52:19.:52:21.

There are many people assuming that Labour have run things for 17 years

:52:22.:52:24.

and so probably they will continue to do the same but there is nothing

:52:25.:52:28.

inevitable about that and it is up to people in Wales to decide whether

:52:29.:52:33.

or not they want to carry on with decline or whether they want a

:52:34.:52:36.

government that has a positive programme to turn around our health

:52:37.:52:40.

service, to train and recruit 1000 extra doctors, to provide social

:52:41.:52:46.

care for people in their own homes, to restructure health and social

:52:47.:52:49.

care so that we can provide better services to people and to turn

:52:50.:52:53.

around our education system as well. That is the option people have. We

:52:54.:52:57.

are offering that as an alternative. Democracy means it is up to people

:52:58.:53:01.

to decide if they want to take that option or not. If you look at the

:53:02.:53:04.

polls, and you talk about labour not being in a good position, but they

:53:05.:53:07.

are much healthier in Wales than they were in Scotland before the SNP

:53:08.:53:12.

have their surge. Do you accept that? Yes, they are, and it is up to

:53:13.:53:18.

us to point out where they failed, in terms of their record. Because

:53:19.:53:23.

many people seem to believe that the health service for example is still

:53:24.:53:26.

run by the Tories in Westminster. That isn't the case. So the failures

:53:27.:53:31.

in our health service, the long waiting times, the inability for

:53:32.:53:35.

people to access certain drugs and treatments, is down to the Labour

:53:36.:53:39.

government here in Wales, and we need to make sure that everybody

:53:40.:53:43.

understands that, and that they vote on that record, and that they fully

:53:44.:53:47.

understand what that record is all about and who is responsible for

:53:48.:53:52.

what. You talk a lot about the SNP and make comparisons, let's talk

:53:53.:53:57.

about independence. According to ICM poll, less than 10% of people would

:53:58.:54:00.

want Wales to be independent. Your party might want it but the people

:54:01.:54:04.

of Wales evidently don't. I would accept that, but there is a greater

:54:05.:54:10.

appetite, a majority appetite for strengthening the powers of this

:54:11.:54:14.

institution, our National Assembly, and there is a growing demand for a

:54:15.:54:19.

resolving of the constitutional anomalies that we have here, and

:54:20.:54:24.

inequalities in terms of finance. While I am encouraged by that, and I

:54:25.:54:29.

understand that the constitutional question is not at the top of

:54:30.:54:33.

people's agenda, health and education and the economy, those are

:54:34.:54:36.

the subjects that are much more likely to be people's priorities,

:54:37.:54:40.

and that is why we are focusing on those ahead of next year's election.

:54:41.:54:42.

Leanne Wood, thank you. Now, on what substance have Acts

:54:43.:54:45.

of Parliament been formally printed The answer is vellum, which,

:54:46.:54:47.

if you didn't know, is calfskin. As well as Acts of Parliament,

:54:48.:54:51.

major documents from British history including the Magna Carta

:54:52.:54:53.

and parts of the Domesday Book have But this centuries-long

:54:54.:54:56.

tradition could be about to end. MPs are discussing whether to use

:54:57.:55:02.

cheaper archival paper instead. The move would, they say,

:55:03.:55:06.

save around EIGHTY THOUSAND pounds But not everyone is happy,

:55:07.:55:09.

with some questioning the wisdom Well, joining us now to discuss this

:55:10.:55:12.

is the calligrapher Patricia Lovett. Welcome to the programme. Why should

:55:13.:55:27.

we continue the practice? There are three points I would like to make

:55:28.:55:31.

about vellum, and then one about craft. The fact that you mentioned

:55:32.:55:35.

we have the Domesday book and the 800th anniversary of the Magna Carta

:55:36.:55:39.

this year is because it has been on vellum. If it had been on paper,

:55:40.:55:43.

that would not be the case. Vellum lasts. It would not have survived.

:55:44.:55:48.

We have books going back 2000 years, one of the earliest books, the Codex

:55:49.:55:52.

I'm Atticus, written about 350 A.D.. It is on vellum and it lasts. This

:55:53.:55:58.

is one of the key things about Dell. This is a skin on felon here. This

:55:59.:56:05.

is -- a skin of vellum, the sort of thing I use as a calligrapher. This

:56:06.:56:09.

isn't what they would use for printing on, in terms of it would be

:56:10.:56:14.

cut into pieces. And so I get really quite fine lines on the work that I

:56:15.:56:18.

do on vellum because this is one of the qualities that it has, and this

:56:19.:56:22.

is using traditional skills of producing gold leaf on gesso. So

:56:23.:56:29.

vellum lasts. This will outlast me and virtually every success that

:56:30.:56:33.

comes after me. That is interesting, it would actually outlast any other

:56:34.:56:37.

sort of material. It feels quite thick and not that pliable, but it

:56:38.:56:43.

obviously is. It is absolutely fine. What our predecessors had done is

:56:44.:56:46.

given as this legacy of being able to look at those roles that we have

:56:47.:56:50.

seen, what we are giving for our successes is 250 years, even with

:56:51.:56:54.

archival paper, and then reprint the whole lot. So that is the first

:56:55.:56:59.

thing. The second thing is vellum doesn't need any special anything,

:57:00.:57:04.

no special ink, no special printers, no special conditions. So can you

:57:05.:57:08.

save money on that? Yes, because with paper you have to have

:57:09.:57:11.

temperature and humidity controlled environment. You have to build that

:57:12.:57:15.

environment, control that environment, monitor that

:57:16.:57:18.

environment, have someone who looks at that environment. Patricia has

:57:19.:57:23.

made a fairly impassioned argument, would you be backing the vellum? It

:57:24.:57:28.

is interesting, because I know this was debated in 1999, and the same

:57:29.:57:31.

arguments came out then and won the day. We always need to look at the

:57:32.:57:38.

cost, but on the other hand there are some traditions and archival

:57:39.:57:42.

reasons why. We would not have had documents like the Domesday book and

:57:43.:57:46.

the Magna Carta. I am one over. There are some things that you just

:57:47.:57:50.

can't replace. If we become so mean, and we are the sixth richest economy

:57:51.:57:54.

in the world, I can't believe that we have to make sacrifices for

:57:55.:57:57.

things like this as well in this age of austerity. Things like this are

:57:58.:58:00.

part of our national heritage, history and hopefully our future.

:58:01.:58:06.

You have convinced two MPs, you are obviously on your way, what is it

:58:07.:58:11.

like writing on it? My third point, it is green, because it is a

:58:12.:58:14.

by-product of the meat and dairy industry, no harsh chemicals, no

:58:15.:58:17.

first cut down or anything like that and it is one of our heritage

:58:18.:58:23.

crafts. William Cowie is the last vellum producer in the country,

:58:24.:58:27.

producing a world-class British product. Good luck with your

:58:28.:58:28.

campaign. There's just time before we go to

:58:29.:58:29.

find out the answer to our quiz. The question was which of these

:58:30.:58:33.

parliamentarians has turned down an invitation to appear on this year's

:58:34.:58:35.

I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here? I was disappointed. I am bad enough

:58:36.:58:59.

if there is a spider in the house. Rather him than me. That is it,

:59:00.:59:01.

goodbye.

:59:02.:59:03.

Jo Coburn with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including coverage of the row over cuts to tax credits, discussion of the effect of the migrant crisis on road hauliers and an interview with Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood.

With Jo throughout the programme are Conservative MP Paul Scully and Labour's Anna Turley.


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