14/12/2015 Daily Politics


14/12/2015

Jo joined by Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan to discuss the latest developments in David Cameron's EU renegotiation and take a look at the recent climate change deal.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:36.:00:40.

David Cameron will deliver a four year ban on in-work

:00:41.:00:42.

Has the PM's EU renegotiation descended into pantomime?

:00:43.:00:53.

Former Guantanamo detainee Shaker Aamer alleges

:00:54.:00:55.

that he was beaten in the presence of British Security officials,

:00:56.:00:58.

but what was the evidence against him?

:00:59.:01:01.

And we get exclusive access to Margaret Thatcher's wardrobe

:01:02.:01:03.

Bling is the last word I would describe Mrs Thatcher as.

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And with us for the first half of the programme today

:01:21.:01:25.

is the Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan.

:01:26.:01:28.

Over the weekend the summit in Paris finally decided on an historic

:01:29.:01:36.

climate deal aimed at driving greenhouse gas emissions down

:01:37.:01:41.

and limiting global warming to "well below" 2C and possibly just 1.5C.

:01:42.:01:44.

If fulfilled, it would see 195 signatory countries weaning

:01:45.:01:50.

themselves off fossil fuels completely within just a few decades

:01:51.:01:52.

and switching to a mix of nuclear power and renewables.

:01:53.:01:55.

But some estimates put the cost of meeting these commitments at $1

:01:56.:01:58.

I think this is a huge step forward from the previous approach, which

:01:59.:02:17.

was to have global technocracy trying to enforce everything on

:02:18.:02:20.

member states. What they have done is got the individual nations to

:02:21.:02:24.

agree to want to do something, answerable to their electorate, not

:02:25.:02:29.

some global police, a better way to carry people to where you want to

:02:30.:02:33.

go. Is it achievable? To keep global warming below two Celsius, is it

:02:34.:02:41.

achievable? We don't know. It is a step in the right direction. A broad

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goal is good. The way they go about it, to say maybe things that would

:02:48.:02:51.

be expensive to do today but would be cheaper as the tech -- technology

:02:52.:02:58.

comes on stream, that is a sensible and practical approach.

:02:59.:03:03.

comes on stream, that is a sensible have said if we look at

:03:04.:03:07.

comes on stream, that is a sensible carbon reduction target, we could

:03:08.:03:08.

not have carbon reduction target, we could

:03:09.:03:15.

stations left? The UK was one of the few countries already meeting the

:03:16.:03:31.

coyotes -- Koyoto criteria. The issues are coming largely from

:03:32.:03:32.

developing countries and any issues are coming largely from

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that only involves Britain or Europe will miss the point because the

:03:36.:03:38.

emissions are coming from will miss the point because the

:03:39.:03:44.

industrialising countries. They will miss the point because the

:03:45.:03:47.

would need to make deeper cuts, though. They understandably have

:03:48.:03:51.

other priorities such as lifting hundreds of millions of people out

:03:52.:03:53.

of grinding poverty, which was why hundreds of millions of people out

:03:54.:03:56.

the deal was done to allow them, the basket of fractionally reducing

:03:57.:03:57.

climate change, to use the basket of fractionally reducing

:03:58.:04:06.

try to lift people to what we would the basket of fractionally reducing

:04:07.:04:09.

regard as a bare minimum of decent living and you do that through

:04:10.:04:14.

cheaper energy. Until people have electricity, running water,

:04:15.:04:16.

understandably, politicians in those electricity, running water,

:04:17.:04:20.

countries will say they have more immediate priorities. Unless they do

:04:21.:04:25.

enact changes, parts of the world will be less habitable and possibly

:04:26.:04:31.

lead to further waves of migration. People have this almost aggressive

:04:32.:04:32.

moral certainty about People have this almost aggressive

:04:33.:04:37.

not like the idea of weighing up priorities. They do not like

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allocating resources judiciously. When you look at the problems

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developing countries struggle with, elimination of disease, basic

:04:48.:04:48.

education for girls, you elimination of disease, basic

:04:49.:04:52.

understand there are more pressing things than just the issue of

:04:53.:04:56.

climate change. It is time for the quiz.

:04:57.:04:58.

Council employees in Bradford have been told they will not longer be

:04:59.:05:01.

allowed to make what on council premises?

:05:02.:05:02.

Later we'll give you the correct answer.

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David Cameron goes to Brussels later this week to meet other EU leaders.

:05:17.:05:23.

A crucial meeting as the Prime Minister tries to secure a new deal

:05:24.:05:28.

for the UK ahead of the referendum on the EU membership. What is he

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after? -- what is he after. years has been seen as the real

:05:31.:05:40.

demand of substance in the Prime Minister's

:05:41.:05:45.

renegotiation strategy - and a Conservative

:05:46.:05:47.

manifesto promise. But it was also a major sticking

:05:48.:05:48.

point for the rest of the EU. In a letter last week,

:05:49.:05:52.

EU Commission President Donald Tusk described it as delicate

:05:53.:05:54.

and Poland declared it Some Sunday papers appeared to have

:05:55.:05:56.

been briefed that the Prime Minister was now willing to compromise

:05:57.:06:00.

on the issue - for example, by requiring UK as well as EU

:06:01.:06:03.

citizens to pay National Insurance contributions for four years before

:06:04.:06:07.

they can claim in-work benefits. But last night a Downing Street

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spokesman briefed "the proposal that is on the table

:06:11.:06:15.

is the four-year benefit delay one. "That's the basis

:06:16.:06:18.

of our renegotiation. David Cameron is due to discuss

:06:19.:06:21.

the issue with other leaders But there has already been angry

:06:22.:06:27.

reaction from some Tory MPs, who remember the Prime Minister's

:06:28.:06:31.

speech in autumn 2014, which placed cutting EU migration

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at the centre of his strategy. EU migrants should have a job offer

:06:34.:06:41.

before they come here. UK taxpayers will not

:06:42.:06:43.

support them if they don't. And once they are in work,

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they won't get benefits or social housing from Britain

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unless they have been Yes, these are radical

:06:51.:06:52.

reforms, but they And the British people

:06:53.:07:03.

need to know that changes to welfare to cut EU

:07:04.:07:06.

migration, they will be an absolute requirement in the negotiations

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I am going to undertake. I'm confident they will

:07:10.:07:13.

reduce significantly EU migration to the UK

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and that is what I am We're joined now by our political

:07:17.:07:19.

correspondent, Alex Forsyth, How likely is it the UK will

:07:20.:07:35.

compromise? There is a school of thought that says it is a

:07:36.:07:40.

manufactured argument and the reason David Cameron faces opposition is so

:07:41.:07:44.

when he comes to Brussels to negotiate the final deal, he can go

:07:45.:07:48.

back to the UK and say it was tough, and what I have managed to achieve

:07:49.:07:54.

is worthwhile. I think on this point of welfare, there is genuine

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opposition. We have had countries such as Poland, Romania, Slovakia,

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saying they do not agree. What we are hearing from the government

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is... This morning, Philip Hammond was in Brussels and spoke to us on

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the way into a meeting of foreign affairs and esters. His language

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suggested it might be time for compromise. The four-year waiting

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time for access to benefits has been a consistent demand. We put that

:08:29.:08:33.

proposal on the table. We have heard a lot of partners in Europe have

:08:34.:08:40.

concerns about it. So far, we have not heard counterproposals, we have

:08:41.:08:43.

not heard alternative suggestions that will deliver the same effect in

:08:44.:08:49.

a different way. We have made clear if people have other ideas that will

:08:50.:08:53.

deliver on this important agenda for the British people we are prepared

:08:54.:08:56.

to listen and enter into dialogue about them. At the moment, the only

:08:57.:09:01.

proposition is our four-year proposal. He does talk about other

:09:02.:09:12.

ideas they would be open to listening to, what might they be? We

:09:13.:09:16.

had a suggestion by Boris Johnson who points to the Danish model where

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there are rules where before you buy a property you have to meet

:09:22.:09:26.

residency criteria. The problem with that is it may require change to

:09:27.:09:32.

domestic law and who is eligible for benefits in the UK. Another idea is

:09:33.:09:37.

an emergency brake, so if the UK could show public services are

:09:38.:09:40.

overwhelmed there might be a possibility to limit migration. But

:09:41.:09:45.

question marks about who would decide the criteria and how you

:09:46.:09:49.

activate it. Downing Street saying they are not formal proposals. The

:09:50.:09:54.

only one seriously considered is theirs on welfare and that is where

:09:55.:09:59.

the attention is focused. European leaders meeting later this week to

:10:00.:10:03.

discuss this, what I think is the bigger challenge is not just what

:10:04.:10:08.

David Cameron can get agreement on, but whatever he achieves, whether it

:10:09.:10:13.

will be enough to satisfy those who have concerns about the yuan the

:10:14.:10:17.

basis of immigration. Will the outcome make a difference in that

:10:18.:10:22.

referendum, of this negotiation? Apologies for some of the technical

:10:23.:10:26.

difficulties on sound. Occasionally we have these problems. We are

:10:27.:10:33.

joined by the Conservative MP. Has this turned into a meaningless

:10:34.:10:38.

exercise? There were four things the Prime Minister was asking for and

:10:39.:10:42.

this is the politically sensitive one. There are other important ones

:10:43.:10:48.

making sure that even though we are not in the eurozone, that we have a

:10:49.:10:52.

fair crack at the single market, protecting national parliaments, and

:10:53.:10:59.

Britain's adherence to ever closer union, those are important. It was a

:11:00.:11:05.

central part of the renegotiation and the redline seems to have been

:11:06.:11:09.

drawn by other EU leaders and now we hear it will do very little,

:11:10.:11:14.

according to the OBR, to cut levels of migration, which was the point of

:11:15.:11:19.

doing it. Part of the point. The other part is there is a strong

:11:20.:11:24.

feeling I share that people should not be able to come here and claim

:11:25.:11:29.

benefits from day one, or in particular, one that gets people,

:11:30.:11:34.

the idea of sending child benefit to children who have never set foot in

:11:35.:11:38.

this country. Those are the details at the heart of the negotiation. Do

:11:39.:11:45.

you accept it will not have a significant impact on migration? We

:11:46.:11:51.

don't know. You cannot be sure what mix of motives there are. But a

:11:52.:11:56.

requirement in renegotiation, and it does not look like he will deliver

:11:57.:12:00.

what was first anticipated. We cannot know that. That is why the

:12:01.:12:05.

Foreign Secretary is saying that if other people have ideas to help us

:12:06.:12:11.

do this, fine, but at the moment, the British Government's idea is the

:12:12.:12:17.

only one on the table. Damien is doing a brave job. Have you met

:12:18.:12:22.

anyone, is anyone watching, thinking, I am undecided but a

:12:23.:12:26.

four-year moratorium, on benefits, that is the clincher for me? Instead

:12:27.:12:33.

of asking for meaningful changes in the location of sovereignty they a

:12:34.:12:42.

list of demands -- have a list of demands of what he knows he can get

:12:43.:12:46.

so he can come back and declare victory. What is significant, if the

:12:47.:12:52.

EU is unable to make significant concessions now when its

:12:53.:12:55.

second-largest economy is about to have a referendum, what would it be

:12:56.:13:00.

like after we voted to stay in? Imagine with that permission, we

:13:01.:13:04.

would be ignored and taken for granted. Why is it the centrepiece

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of the negotiation? The only people you know care deeply about this

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politically are Tory MPs. You declared it the centrepiece will

:13:16.:13:20.

stop I think Downing Street made it the centrepiece and Philip Hammond

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and David Cameron are talking about it as if it is the be all and end

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all. Was it a tactical error to make it?

:13:28.:13:33.

Where I do not agree with him is he's says the renegotiation is a

:13:34.:13:39.

fraud. I do not think that is true. There is renegotiation. The fact

:13:40.:13:45.

that people have not said you can have it, shows that this means real

:13:46.:13:51.

reform will happen in Europe. Nothing the Prime Minister brought

:13:52.:13:55.

back would satisfy the hardline people... Hang on. David Owen set

:13:56.:14:03.

out a plan, a reasonable plan for staying in the market but opting out

:14:04.:14:08.

of the political ones. Someone who left the Labour Party because it was

:14:09.:14:13.

insufficiently pro-EU. I would have happily gone with that but for some

:14:14.:14:16.

reason the PM did not go for it. Why not? That is pulling out of the EU,

:14:17.:14:25.

creating something that would put at risk the single market and

:14:26.:14:28.

cooperation on security, the fact that Britain's voice in the world is

:14:29.:14:32.

louder because of membership. Putting that at risk will be at the

:14:33.:14:40.

heart of the referendum campaign. We are talking about political

:14:41.:14:42.

institutions. We are agreed that what ever the outcome, we will stay

:14:43.:14:48.

in the single market. It is not our single market. Not a single European

:14:49.:14:57.

country, in or outside the EU, faces tariffs when selling to the EU.

:14:58.:15:01.

These would have to tariffs when selling to the EU.

:15:02.:15:07.

true there is nothing that would keep Britain in the EU, that you

:15:08.:15:12.

would ever support, that is the case? That is not true. I have

:15:13.:15:15.

written articles saying that UK law, freedom to trade outside the EU,

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they are perfectly reasonable. It would mean us having to leave. We

:15:26.:15:30.

could have gone for those things in an amicable renegotiation.

:15:31.:15:32.

could have gone for those things in have been achievable. It will not

:15:33.:15:34.

happen because it is not on have been achievable. It will not

:15:35.:15:38.

agenda and the only way to get them is to vote to leave and strike a

:15:39.:15:42.

deal from the outside. When you know the British

:15:43.:15:44.

deal from the outside. When you know to recommend his deal, campaign to

:15:45.:15:48.

stay in, whatever, why make concessions? They will save

:15:49.:15:51.

He is worried about the result of leave.

:15:52.:15:58.

He is worried about the result of the referendum if he is talking

:15:59.:16:03.

about what happens after. Talking about Eurocrats as if there is a

:16:04.:16:05.

homogenous body democratic friendly countries all of

:16:06.:16:07.

whom have democratic friendly countries all of

:16:08.:16:12.

the world and all of whom for some peculiar reason wants to do Britain

:16:13.:16:16.

down. That is what is not true. That peculiar reason wants to do Britain

:16:17.:16:19.

are no Eurocrats who are a body peculiar reason wants to do Britain

:16:20.:16:29.

Germany to Scandinavia, all of whom who have one for you and what to do

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Britain down. I am not suggesting that might want to do Britain down.

:16:33.:16:40.

What Angela Merkel says is the same, we want to have a United States of

:16:41.:16:45.

Europe, we want more integration millet narrowly -- militarily and

:16:46.:16:56.

politically. We want market access. It is not going to happen through

:16:57.:17:02.

these talks. Moving away from the in work benefits, what else can really

:17:03.:17:06.

be achieved that is substantial that is going to make a difference to

:17:07.:17:13.

everyday people? Talking about retaining national sovereignty, not

:17:14.:17:17.

wanting ever closer union, these are words written down in documents,

:17:18.:17:21.

how's it going to be materially different to what we have now? What

:17:22.:17:25.

we have now is the best of all worlds. We are members of the single

:17:26.:17:32.

market but have control of borders. We do not belong to the euro. It

:17:33.:17:38.

clearly beneficial to Britain to have its own currency. We want to

:17:39.:17:44.

reform Europe so it gets better. That sounds very general. That will

:17:45.:17:51.

not mean anything to the person down the pub saying we are going to

:17:52.:17:56.

reform this institution to make it better. Better in what way? Better

:17:57.:18:05.

in terms of security. We live in an increasingly dangerous world. We

:18:06.:18:08.

have seen terrible events in Paris and who knows when they are going to

:18:09.:18:13.

happen in some other European country? It makes sense to have

:18:14.:18:17.

things like the European Arrest Warrant that allows us to chase

:18:18.:18:22.

people quickly across borders. It makes sense to sign up to

:18:23.:18:26.

co-operation measures that enable quick exchange of DNA information of

:18:27.:18:31.

convicted criminals and terrorists. That is the kind of thing the

:18:32.:18:35.

European Union gives us that makes the streets of Britain safer that

:18:36.:18:40.

would be put at risk. Do you believe legislating in the UK so that

:18:41.:18:50.

British as well as EU people must pay contributions is viable? That is

:18:51.:18:55.

the fallback position. They may get the deal. The reason we are not in

:18:56.:19:01.

the Europa is because Damien lost that argument and like so many of

:19:02.:19:07.

the people... We did not lose the argument. Let us not fight an

:19:08.:19:14.

argument that has been settled. They are using exactly the same scare

:19:15.:19:19.

tactics. They said if we did not join the single currency companies

:19:20.:19:23.

would relocate away from Britain. They were wrong then and are wrong

:19:24.:19:28.

now. What about in work benefits if you were to impose that on British

:19:29.:19:33.

workers for four years? Then it would be accepted. It would be

:19:34.:19:41.

accepted. Would you agree to that? I think the current proposal is a

:19:42.:19:45.

better one than that. It may be that somebody has a better idea to hit

:19:46.:19:49.

the underlying point about reducing migration. Nothing so far. Would you

:19:50.:19:56.

sign up to a deal if the compromises that British citizens will also be

:19:57.:20:01.

prevented from claiming in work benefits? It would depend,

:20:02.:20:06.

particularly with benefits you have to look at the detail. The broad

:20:07.:20:11.

brush approach does not work. There is a wider point that the benefits

:20:12.:20:16.

we get in people's daily lives in terms of jobs and prosperity are

:20:17.:20:22.

bought would be put at risk by pulling out of the European Union

:20:23.:20:26.

and that will be the actual heart of the referendum debate. The real risk

:20:27.:20:33.

would be voting to stay. This is an organisation that will not reform.

:20:34.:20:39.

If we stay we have the almost certainty of being dragged into

:20:40.:20:41.

deeper political and economic trouble. We will continue this

:20:42.:20:46.

conversation for many months, since we do not know when the data is

:20:47.:20:47.

going to be for this referendum. He spent 14 years in

:20:48.:20:55.

detention in Guantanamo Bay. Now, Saudi-born British resident

:20:56.:20:57.

Shaker Aamer has been speaking to the British media and alleging,

:20:58.:20:59.

among other things, that he was beaten in the presence

:21:00.:21:01.

of British intelligence officers. Let's hear a little of what he said

:21:02.:21:04.

when he spoke to the BBC's I have had my head boom,

:21:05.:21:07.

bang in the wall. And all the while I remember

:21:08.:21:12.

that my head is just keep banging the wall, back and forth,

:21:13.:21:15.

back and forth, back and forth. Are you adamant that there

:21:16.:21:18.

was an English officer, intelligence officer, agent,

:21:19.:21:22.

in that room when your head Because the way he spoke,

:21:23.:21:25.

the way he is very careful, the way he was sitting

:21:26.:21:37.

far away looking at me. And the day before I met someone

:21:38.:21:42.

who already told me I am I had no doubt from day

:21:43.:21:48.

one I would be out because I have no doubt that

:21:49.:21:57.

I did not do anything wrong Years after years after years,

:21:58.:22:00.

justice will prevail. It took 27 years for Nelson Mandela

:22:01.:22:08.

to get out and be the president It took me only 14 years to prove

:22:09.:22:12.

to the world that I am a good person Victoria Derbyshire talking

:22:13.:22:23.

to former Guantanamo detainee But not everyone is welcoming

:22:24.:22:27.

Mr Aamer back to the UK. Earlier I spoke to Hannah Stuart

:22:28.:22:30.

from the right-wing foreign affairs think tank the Henry

:22:31.:22:34.

Jackson Society. I started by asking her

:22:35.:22:35.

if she thought Shaker Aamer I am not sure necessarily that he

:22:36.:22:48.

now poses a threat to the United Kingdom but certainly when he was

:22:49.:22:51.

picked up the allegations were that he was fighting on behalf of Osama

:22:52.:22:56.

Bin Laden whose house he is believed to have been at. He was working for

:22:57.:23:01.

Islamic charities, he says. You might have been designated later as

:23:02.:23:07.

connected to Al-Qaeda. The Americans believed he was part of the Al-Qaeda

:23:08.:23:12.

network and was a threat not just to the UK but the wider western world.

:23:13.:23:19.

We had just been attacked in 9/11. He has denied that. He says proves

:23:20.:23:25.

that I was not working for a charity that was a genuine charity. Prove

:23:26.:23:29.

that I was associated with Osama bin Ladin and others who have turned out

:23:30.:23:42.

to be jihadi fighters. You, like the Americans, do not believe him. I am

:23:43.:23:46.

not prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt that mainstream

:23:47.:23:50.

commentators do. It seems that because he has been a victim of

:23:51.:23:54.

human rights, and I am not disputing that, it is being said that

:23:55.:23:59.

everything that the Americans alleges not true but everything he

:24:00.:24:03.

alleges the Americans did to him is true and that is a double standard.

:24:04.:24:07.

Both of their behaviour should be under increased scrutiny. What

:24:08.:24:11.

concrete evidence other than claims and allegations from the US is there

:24:12.:24:18.

that Aamer was a terrorists and Al-Qaeda operative? There are a

:24:19.:24:23.

number of bits of evidence which come from documents, Gwent animal

:24:24.:24:30.

interrogations and interviews where he has confessed to a number of

:24:31.:24:33.

actions including Al-Qaeda leader training. He will say that is under

:24:34.:24:41.

duress as a result of torture. Some of those the Americans have said

:24:42.:24:55.

were tortured, but not him. Some people have alleged that Aamer was

:24:56.:24:59.

connected with Al-Qaeda operatives. He says that was under duress. We

:25:00.:25:11.

have here detailed claims by Shaker Aamer of torture over years. If that

:25:12.:25:16.

is true it is an abuse of his human rights and lets down the Western

:25:17.:25:22.

world. The treatment meted out to him does not white was the

:25:23.:25:29.

allegations and he chose to take his family to live under Taliban rule.

:25:30.:25:33.

That says a lot about the sort of society he would like to 11 and the

:25:34.:25:38.

charities he was connected to, those he willingly acknowledges he working

:25:39.:25:42.

for, our Al-Qaeda designated charities. If the evidence is there,

:25:43.:25:49.

why is he not facing trial? Britain has no legal case against Shaker

:25:50.:25:54.

Aamer. They have no jurisdiction over his actions in Afghanistan at

:25:55.:26:00.

that time. We have seen British fighters joining the conflict in

:26:01.:26:06.

Syria, an extension of jurisdiction. That is something that has been put

:26:07.:26:10.

in place in the last 18 months. It was not there then. It is right that

:26:11.:26:15.

the UK's legal system cannot be applied retrospectively so we do not

:26:16.:26:19.

have a legal case against Shaker Aamer. The US has established a

:26:20.:26:24.

system of military tribunal is which is supposed to address those issues

:26:25.:26:28.

and some people from Guantanamo were tried. Why was that not the case for

:26:29.:26:34.

Shaker Aamer? I believe the military tribunal is very complex and

:26:35.:26:38.

difficult and very few of the detainees have been put under

:26:39.:26:42.

military tribunal. Shaker Aamer was cleared a number of years ago, in

:26:43.:26:48.

2007, and released to Saudi Arabia. That is what the Americans wanted to

:26:49.:26:51.

do, to release him back to his country of birth. He chose to fight

:26:52.:26:57.

that. Some would say rightly or wrongly, because he wanted to come

:26:58.:27:02.

back to his family in the UK. If there is not enough evidence to

:27:03.:27:06.

convict somebody how can there be enough evidence to detain somebody

:27:07.:27:11.

without trial for so many years? I do not think that Guantanamo should

:27:12.:27:15.

exist or there is a case. I do not think people should be held without

:27:16.:27:19.

trial. That does not mean I think he is innocent. Is that not the crux of

:27:20.:27:25.

this case, that holding somebody for that length of time without a trial

:27:26.:27:29.

or without gathering of evidence that could be put on trial is always

:27:30.:27:36.

going to end up in either a miscarriage of justice or with

:27:37.:27:39.

complaints about alleged torture of false imprisonment? Yes. What

:27:40.:27:46.

distinguishes a functioning state from a gang of terrorists is the

:27:47.:27:49.

distinguishes a functioning state rule of law, due process and

:27:50.:27:49.

procedure where people are surly rule of law, due process and

:27:50.:27:55.

tried and you cannot keep somebody locked up without bringing charges

:27:56.:28:00.

against them. We established that in Magna Carta. That is

:28:01.:28:07.

against them. We established that in like Al-Qaeda. They would argue

:28:08.:28:10.

these are special circumstances, following the attacks in 2001, the

:28:11.:28:15.

national security in a way was more important for that period of

:28:16.:28:17.

national security in a way was more than the concerns that you have just

:28:18.:28:23.

outlined, and a lot of people will feel sympathy. That is the argument

:28:24.:28:27.

outlined, and a lot of people will always made. It is or was that of

:28:28.:28:27.

cases that make the bad law. People always made. It is or was that of

:28:28.:28:36.

we should suspend due process. I have no idea what this man was doing

:28:37.:28:41.

taking his family to Afghanistan. There are lots of things that no

:28:42.:28:44.

dodgy about this case but none of that is relevant if there was no

:28:45.:28:48.

evidence to bring against him in a due court. Thank you.

:28:49.:29:00.

On Wednesday, it's the last Prime Minister's Questions

:29:01.:29:03.

of the term and Jeremy Corbyn and David Cameron will be back

:29:04.:29:06.

Wednesday also sees the monthly unemployment figures published.

:29:07.:29:09.

Last month's figures showed that unemployment fell by just over

:29:10.:29:12.

100,000, with the unemployment rate at 5.3%.

:29:13.:29:16.

The BBC Director General, Lord Hall, is in front of the Culture Committee

:29:17.:29:19.

Will he also be asked about Tyson Fury being nominated

:29:20.:29:25.

Thursday and Friday sees the eagerly anticipated EU summit in Brussels.

:29:26.:29:31.

The Prime Minister has conceded that the meeting will not resolve

:29:32.:29:36.

Britain's EU renegotiation "in one go" and, consequently,

:29:37.:29:40.

he now does not expect to get agreement at the meeting.

:29:41.:29:44.

Unison elect a new leader on Thursday - Dave Prentis,

:29:45.:29:47.

the incumbent, will be standing for a third time,

:29:48.:29:50.

And the DUP announce their new leader after

:29:51.:29:54.

Northern Ireland Finance Minister Arlene Foster is the only candidate.

:29:55.:29:59.

The new leader will also become the new First Minister

:30:00.:30:01.

We're joined now by the Telegraph's Christopher Hope and The Times' Lucy

:30:02.:30:08.

Christmas cheer for David Cameron at the EU summit? He is going with not

:30:09.:30:24.

much in his Christmas sack this year. Trying to get a four-year ban

:30:25.:30:31.

for benefits on EU migrants going nowhere and Boris Johnson popping up

:30:32.:30:34.

with an idea about Denmark and how they can opt out to stop foreigners

:30:35.:30:38.

buying property there. It is not easy. Not the end of negotiations he

:30:39.:30:45.

wanted, it will drag to February which is not good news for him.

:30:46.:30:49.

Number 10 say they hold the line on the issue but we hear phrases about

:30:50.:30:55.

being open to other ideas, and other suggestions from EU leaders will be

:30:56.:31:00.

welcomed. Is it an admission of failure? It has been branded

:31:01.:31:06.

humiliating climb-down by David Cameron's critics. He is stressing

:31:07.:31:10.

flexibility. It is possible to see other options on the table that

:31:11.:31:15.

could address migrants coming to the UK and limit the attractiveness of

:31:16.:31:20.

the option, such as an emergency brake or changing domestic

:31:21.:31:25.

legislation. Their manifesto included a pledge to crack down on

:31:26.:31:31.

child benefit and tax credits for EU migrants. And levels of migration,

:31:32.:31:39.

which was slightly questioned by the OBR. Tory sceptics -- Eurosceptics

:31:40.:31:47.

will enjoy the discomfort of number 10. I think Daniel -- what he set

:31:48.:32:03.

out, and a big group that looks after the Tory Eurosceptics, he is

:32:04.:32:06.

saying to party members when you meet the MP over Christmas, get them

:32:07.:32:14.

to vote for Brexit. It is like a Tory version of Momentum. Jeremy

:32:15.:32:22.

Corbyn, coming up to his first 100 days as leader. Is his position now

:32:23.:32:28.

more secure than a month ago? I do. You hear members of his closest team

:32:29.:32:33.

talking about the fact most of the errors he has made, such as quoting,

:32:34.:32:41.

John McDonnell quoting Chairman Mao, are unforced errors from their own

:32:42.:32:46.

side. There is a degree of paranoia from his team but they are certain

:32:47.:32:50.

of the overwhelming support of the membership and they know for now he

:32:51.:32:56.

is saved, certainly until May, so they have time to get their people

:32:57.:33:01.

in positions of power in local parties. We will see selections for

:33:02.:33:10.

delegates and that will be a key moment, and party rule changes will

:33:11.:33:15.

shore up his position even further. Lucy talking about getting people

:33:16.:33:20.

into positions of influence to present the style of leadership in

:33:21.:33:24.

the Labour Party feeds into speculation about Shadow Cabinet

:33:25.:33:30.

reshuffle is. Is there anything concrete, the idea Ken Livingstone

:33:31.:33:36.

would be put in the House of Lords? That is where we are, the fact that

:33:37.:33:42.

Redken could emerge in red ermine in the House of Lords a player in

:33:43.:33:51.

national Labour politics. It is like 1981. Labour have to work out when

:33:52.:33:56.

they want to start governing again, rather than protesting. That is a

:33:57.:34:00.

question the Labour Party must think about over Christmas. I wish you a

:34:01.:34:01.

good festive season. We're joined now by the Labour MP

:34:02.:34:06.

and Shadow Women's Minister And Craig MacKinlay,

:34:07.:34:09.

who's been the MP for Thanet South since May, where he beat off

:34:10.:34:12.

a challenge from Ukip leader Let's just remind ourselves

:34:13.:34:15.

of that big election night Craig McKinley, the Conservative

:34:16.:34:18.

Party candidate, 18,848. Welcome to both of you and happy

:34:19.:34:58.

memories there, were you confident of winning? We were as time went on.

:34:59.:35:03.

We did a lot of canvassing and it was clear we would win, it was the

:35:04.:35:07.

margin, we knew it would be tight but we thought we would win. You

:35:08.:35:12.

would founder, deputy leader and leader of UK before defecting to the

:35:13.:35:16.

Conservatives, what was it like to defeat Nigel Farage? It was bizarre,

:35:17.:35:21.

why he bothered to stand against me, a strange choice. It was a shame

:35:22.:35:27.

from personal friendships we shared in the early days of Ukip that we

:35:28.:35:31.

were fighting each other but a handsome victory and he was rather

:35:32.:35:38.

silly. Cat Smith, Jeremy Corbyn, about two approaches 100 days. You

:35:39.:35:42.

worked in his office, did you imagine he would be leader? When I

:35:43.:35:47.

nominated Jeremy Corbyn for leader at the beginning of the process I

:35:48.:35:51.

was not confident we would get him on the ballot paper, so the idea of

:35:52.:35:56.

him becoming leader seemed far-away. What we have seen through the first

:35:57.:36:01.

100 days is he is in a stronger position now than he was. He won a

:36:02.:36:07.

huge mandate from the membership and we have seen that grow in terms of

:36:08.:36:10.

support with many more people saying to me, I did not support him but I

:36:11.:36:16.

see what he's doing, they really like what he is doing. How is that

:36:17.:36:22.

manifested in itself? He has a big mandate but there is a rift in the

:36:23.:36:26.

Parliamentary party, is he winning them over? I dispute there is a big

:36:27.:36:32.

rift in the Labour Parliamentary party, which has always had a

:36:33.:36:39.

diversity of views. If you look at the vote on Syria. The majority of

:36:40.:36:44.

party members, the Parliamentary Labour Party, MPs and Shadow Cabinet

:36:45.:36:50.

posts the intervention and if you said a week before the vote that

:36:51.:36:53.

would be the outcome I don't think anyone would believe it. Why did he

:36:54.:37:00.

win the vote -- whip the vote. I do not think we should whip the vote on

:37:01.:37:05.

matters of war and peace. I think in future we will have free votes on

:37:06.:37:09.

issues as serious as that because as an MP you have to listen to your

:37:10.:37:13.

conscience, as well as what the party whips tell you. How does it

:37:14.:37:18.

work when you have the Shadow Foreign Secretary with the

:37:19.:37:21.

government and against the party leader on a key issue Assyria? You

:37:22.:37:28.

saw how it worked. Some MPs decided to vote with Hilary Benn, a minority

:37:29.:37:34.

of MPs, and the majority were convinced by the arguments Jeremy

:37:35.:37:38.

Corbyn made to oppose action. It was not the right answer to the question

:37:39.:37:43.

posed. What about Ken Livingstone? Labour Party HQ said it was

:37:44.:37:49.

nonsense. It is nonsense. He will not be put into the House of Lords

:37:50.:37:53.

or Shadow Cabinet? I think Ken Livingstone did a great job as Mayor

:37:54.:37:58.

of London and is a good support to the party but I do not see him

:37:59.:38:03.

playing a big role in the future. Is he not very much part of Jeremy

:38:04.:38:08.

Corbyn's thinking in terms of new politics? There are a lot of other

:38:09.:38:13.

people. The House of Lords, if Labour put names forward to go into

:38:14.:38:17.

the House of Lords, I would like to imagine the names did not include a

:38:18.:38:21.

majority of older, white men. The Lords is dominated by them and I

:38:22.:38:30.

would like to see others to represent diversity in the House of

:38:31.:38:33.

Lords. Is that why you would not want to see Ken Livingstone as part

:38:34.:38:39.

of a Shadow Cabinet? I see the Labour Party being more diverse and

:38:40.:38:43.

representative. Jeremy set the example by having more women in the

:38:44.:38:47.

Shadow Cabinet for the first time, having a majority there. Jeremy's

:38:48.:38:52.

view will be a more diverse front bench team. How will he moulds the

:38:53.:38:58.

Shadow Cabinet more in his and John McDonnell's image? In that sense

:38:59.:39:02.

Shadow Cabinet more in his and John are having discussions as a

:39:03.:39:09.

Parliamentary Labour Party. I imagine the Shadow Cabinet have the

:39:10.:39:12.

Parliamentary Labour Party. Discussing ideas is important, to

:39:13.:39:19.

have an open debate. We have had that open debate and I am grateful

:39:20.:39:21.

for that. Now, should 16 and 17-year-olds be

:39:22.:39:25.

able to vote in the in-out Many peers in the House of Lords

:39:26.:39:28.

think so and they're likely to vote in favour of that again today

:39:29.:39:32.

in teeth of opposition from the government who say they're

:39:33.:39:35.

frustrating the will of elected MPs. What say you? I am not in favour. It

:39:36.:39:47.

is bizarre the unelected house, having a discussion of that place,

:39:48.:39:53.

is trying to influence the franchise for an election, it is a bizarre

:39:54.:39:59.

state of affairs. I don't agree 16 and 17-year-olds

:40:00.:40:02.

state of affairs. I don't agree 16 elections but if we want to change

:40:03.:40:04.

the franchise it should be elections but if we want to change

:40:05.:40:09.

debate for all elections, there should be a

:40:10.:40:11.

debate for all elections, there take an amount of time with a

:40:12.:40:14.

debate for all elections, there commission to decide yes it is a

:40:15.:40:19.

good or bad idea. We have the Scottish referendum. This would be

:40:20.:40:20.

another election and that is Scottish referendum. This would be

:40:21.:40:25.

start these things? Just because the Scots did it under devolved

:40:26.:40:27.

start these things? Just because the is a matter for them. You

:40:28.:40:30.

start these things? Just because the think it was a success? I don't

:40:31.:40:35.

think it is a good idea. Youngsters, we want them involved in the

:40:36.:40:41.

political process. 18 to 24-year-olds are the lowest turnout,

:40:42.:40:45.

I want to encourage it when they are 18 and onwards and I am not

:40:46.:40:48.

convinced those under 18... They 18 and onwards and I am not

:40:49.:40:53.

have not always joined the world of work. They are not into taxation,

:40:54.:40:59.

they cannot do many things. If there was a commission... I think this is

:41:00.:41:05.

the wrong approach. In order to encourage young people to engage in

:41:06.:41:09.

politics and debate arguments, we need them to be franchise to take

:41:10.:41:13.

part in votes. We saw in Scotland that those are 16 and 17 listen to

:41:14.:41:19.

the arguments and will probably vote that future elections. Evidence

:41:20.:41:23.

shows the more likely you are to vote when you have voted Young.

:41:24.:41:28.

I.e., the first time you have done it. You put your cross in the box

:41:29.:41:34.

once and can do it again. It is important the 16 and 17-year-olds

:41:35.:41:39.

today, who will live with the consequences of the referendum, have

:41:40.:41:45.

a stake in that. That is the point. Generally about the franchise, not

:41:46.:41:49.

just added on for one election. I would be happy to see the franchise

:41:50.:41:54.

extended for all elections. Let's have the debate. We have seen in

:41:55.:42:00.

Scotland that voting young people is a huge success. We have an

:42:01.:42:03.

opportunity to see if it is a success in the rest of the UK. Let's

:42:04.:42:08.

go on to the EU renegotiation, what you make of it? I think he could

:42:09.:42:15.

have gone with asking for more than the four baskets he has asked for

:42:16.:42:20.

and it seems one of the key points, the restriction of in work benefits

:42:21.:42:23.

seems to have been rebuffed by EU partners. They realise Britain is on

:42:24.:42:31.

the cusp of 50-50 Brexit, they must realise that and they must realise

:42:32.:42:37.

they need to give us a fair bit to that renegotiation that a lot of

:42:38.:42:42.

people want, or else there will be a Brexit. We are being intransigent

:42:43.:42:45.

and I am shocked by the approach taken. Which way would you vote? I

:42:46.:42:53.

am out. Out even if he secures renegotiation on the four baskets as

:42:54.:42:59.

you call it? He went for renegotiation, a fundamental

:43:00.:43:07.

renegotiation, I do not think he was asking for that. In my mind

:43:08.:43:10.

fundamental is more. If he delivered that and perhaps more, yes. I am not

:43:11.:43:13.

out at any cost but at the moment I am more out than in because I do not

:43:14.:43:18.

think what is negotiated is fundamental. The manifesto

:43:19.:43:23.

commitment was to reform the EU to try to bring down there. Migration.

:43:24.:43:27.

Do you think that would do that? I think it would help, but there are

:43:28.:43:32.

other factors why EU immigrants are coming to Britain, not least the

:43:33.:43:39.

failures in Euroland, mass unemployment in Greece. And the

:43:40.:43:48.

reason people are coming here is we have a vibrant economy, a global

:43:49.:43:51.

economy. It is more than just benefits involved. Do you think

:43:52.:43:56.

increasing the national wage could be a pull factor? Facts could be

:43:57.:44:01.

another reason why Romanian wages are probably a quarter of what they

:44:02.:44:06.

are here, and that difference will be greater as we go to the national

:44:07.:44:13.

wage. If you extended a four-year ban on in work benefits to EU

:44:14.:44:18.

migrants to British workers, that might be accepted, because it would

:44:19.:44:22.

not discriminate, would you support that? I think what is going on is

:44:23.:44:27.

camera and trying to please Tory backbenchers who wish for the exit

:44:28.:44:31.

door. His renegotiation is around whether we would deny EU migrants

:44:32.:44:38.

benefits for for years and whether he would penalise young British

:44:39.:44:40.

workers by denying them benefits goes to show how far he will go to

:44:41.:44:46.

hurt British workers by trying to please Tory backbenchers. If it was

:44:47.:44:50.

part of the deal, then it would no longer be discriminatory, and it

:44:51.:44:54.

might be accepted, would you support it? Labour's position is clear, we

:44:55.:45:02.

support being a member of the EU. I am asking about the specific on in

:45:03.:45:07.

work benefits because one option might be to say that until you have

:45:08.:45:12.

worked for years and contributed here, you also won't be able to

:45:13.:45:16.

claim in work benefits will stop then everybody is treated fairly.

:45:17.:45:17.

Would you back that? That is wrong. Penalising workers

:45:18.:45:28.

for four years is wrong. I said it should be two years. Looking more

:45:29.:45:33.

seriously at the bigger picture this is all about camera and trying to

:45:34.:45:38.

please... You have said that but Labour will be... Labour will be

:45:39.:45:47.

campaigning. We would not support the four year ban on benefits. We

:45:48.:45:52.

would stay within the EU and when we had the chance we would reverse that

:45:53.:45:56.

if we were to be in power. That is fair enough. You think David Cameron

:45:57.:46:01.

should compromise to try to get something on in work benefits or

:46:02.:46:06.

stick to his guns? I think he should stick to his guns but it is a

:46:07.:46:12.

developing situation. We will not know until Thursday. It seems pretty

:46:13.:46:18.

clear. It seems pretty clear. It would be fundamentally wrong to

:46:19.:46:21.

change the basis of how we do benefits in the UK for our citizens

:46:22.:46:26.

to fit a stalled EU negotiations so I do not support that. We should

:46:27.:46:30.

have the flexibility to have whatever benefit system we want in

:46:31.:46:35.

the UK, not to be changed by membership of the EU. You would not

:46:36.:46:40.

want to see any extension and you think there would be other Tories

:46:41.:46:44.

and Eurosceptics who would feel the same. It seems a funny back door way

:46:45.:46:48.

of trying to achieve what has been in negotiation point. The wrong way

:46:49.:46:49.

of doing it. Now, fans of Margaret Thatcher,

:46:50.:46:52.

or political memorabilia, A collection of the former

:46:53.:46:54.

PM's possessions - from dresses to handbags,

:46:55.:46:57.

books to ornaments - is being auctioned

:46:58.:46:59.

off at Christie's. But before you decide

:47:00.:47:01.

whether to bid for the Iron Lady's former despatch box or her favourite

:47:02.:47:03.

set of earrings, take a look at Peter Hunt's behind the scenes

:47:04.:47:06.

report on what's up for grabs and what it might tell us

:47:07.:47:09.

about Britain's first,

:47:10.:47:12.

Jo Coburn is joined for the first half of the show by Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan to discuss the latest developments in David Cameron's EU renegotiation and take a look at the climate change deal that was agreed at the weekend in Paris. For the second half of the show, Jo is joined by Conservative MP Craig Mackinlay and Labour MP Cat Smith to look at the week ahead, and there's also a preview of the Margaret Thatcher sale at Christie's.


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