Browse content similar to 21/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics. | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
As the Conservative Party descends into civil war, | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
will David Cameron be able to quell the unrest as he prepares to tell | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
the Commons that he still believes in compassionate Conservatism? | :00:50. | :00:51. | |
A "narrow attack on working age benefits". | :00:52. | :01:06. | |
Iain Duncan Smith's parting words are a gift for Labour, | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
The deal allowing migrants arriving in Greece to be sent back to Turkey | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
came into effect yesterday but is it deterring people from crossing? | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
And how doing this could land you with a ?100 fine | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
or even a criminal record. | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
All that in the next hour and with us for the whole programme | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
today two former leadership hopefuls for their respective parties. | :01:31. | :01:32. | |
The Conservative MP, David Davis, and Labour's Chuka Umunna who's | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
fresh from the launch of his All-Party Parliamentary Group | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
First this morning, leaving the EU could cost ?100 billion to the UK | :01:39. | :01:51. | |
economy and cause the loss of almost a million jobs, | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
according to a report commissioned by the Confederation | :01:54. | :01:55. | |
The analysis by the accountancy firm PricewaterhouseCoopers | :01:56. | :02:05. | |
says household incomes could be between ?2,100 and ?3,700 lower | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
If that isn't a project fear, I don't know what is. It is perfectly | :02:09. | :02:20. | |
legitimate to point out the risks involved in us leaving, but of | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
course the campaign that I am a part of, hands on the table, it also | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
telling the story of things we stand to gain through continued | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
membership. The CBI represent over 150,000 businesses employing 7 | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
million people in our country. They are pointing out that if we leave it | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
could cost up to 100 billion and we could lose 1 million jobs. That is | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
research and it should be taken notice of because of who the CBI is. | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
Of course there will be research on the other side as well. For me it is | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
not just an economic issue. It is about how we see our country, how we | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
amplify the great in Great Britain. We are already a fantastic country, | :03:03. | :03:13. | |
so making sure we can achieve good tangible things or people at home | :03:14. | :03:15. | |
and abroad. It is a serious organisation, so on those figures, | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
they would be mad to vote to leave the EU. Which is the serious | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
organisation? PricewaterhouseCoopers? The CBI? Are | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
you saying that the numbers are wrong? I am, essentially. The | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
numbers assume there is no low skilled immigration, and that is | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
where the numbers disappear. One of the ex-members of the monetary | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
committee tweeted earlier that the difference we are talking about over | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
nearly 20 years that they are forecasting is less than the change | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
in the forecast between the Autumn Statement last year and the budget | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
this year. It is tiny. Different in tone though. I agree with Chuka | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
Umunna on one thing. It is not about finely balanced forecasts. They have | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
made mistakes, but put that to one side. This simple truth is this is | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
about how we see our country. We have got a great country. Can it | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
stand on its own to feet? Yes. It can do a better deal with free-trade | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
and Europe has done in the past. Is it a country that can grow off the | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
back of this? My view is yes, as the viewers know. This report is | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
irrelevant. Interesting that you should raise the members of that | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
committee, because the person who oversaw this PricewaterhouseCoopers | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
report is a former member. And didn't think to point out how small | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
the differences. He clearly thinks it will have a detrimental affect on | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
our economy. In the end, I wouldn't argue that if we leave the European | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
Union we couldn't stand on our own two feat. But would it be better? If | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
we put the figures aside because that will not win or lose the arc | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
and, although it is interesting that when we have both sides on, you go | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
to the figures, but putting that aside, will you be able to convince | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
people that they wouldn't be liberated or better off if there was | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
a vote to leave the EU? That is the proposition being put by the other | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
side. I don't buy the notion that we are shackled by the European Union, | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
which the other side are putting. If we look at votes from the European | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
Council, nine out of ten times we are on the majority side. I don't | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
buy this talking down Britain's influence in the European Union and | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
getting run over because that doesn't happen. I have been there, I | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
have negotiated in this council, I know how it works. 72 times in the | :05:40. | :05:47. | |
last ten years we have tried to stop the European Union and 72 times we | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
have lost. How many times have we won? The fundamental point is | :05:53. | :05:54. | |
countries try to avoid falling out with each other. We are the ones | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
being outvoted. Listen. We have been outvoted more times than any other | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
country in the European Union. Latvia, Lithuania, nobody has been | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
outvoted more times than we have. As the country done so badly being part | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
of the EU? A lot of it has been under a Conservative Government | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
recently, which says this country has done well economically and it is | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
the Conservative Government that has kept Great Britain out of the Euro | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
crisis. Originally the decision was under Labour, but out of the Euro | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
crisis and out of Schengen. What are you liberating Britain from? If you | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
want to talk history, if you look at history Britain, when we joined in | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
73, we were doing badly. In terms of exports to Europe. We were never | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
very good at that. The Commonwealth and not to Europe. When we joined, | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
we joined, we did really well for about 20 years, what you might call | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
the common market period. Since the single market period, which everyone | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
thought was the common market squared, actually we have done | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
relatively poorly. Less well than countries outside the European Union | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
in selling into Europe. Go on, finish your point. There is plenty | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
of evidence to show you if you want to look at it. Look at the issue of | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
free trade negotiations. Not just a Europe that other parts of the | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
world. But we can negotiate bilateral agreements. We can't. Let | :07:28. | :07:35. | |
me finish. Briefly! We can't do it. When they do it for us, in two | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
thirds of those areas, our export rate goes down. Reply and then we | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
move on. We benefit from the fact we don't have tariffs when we sell to | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
the EU, our biggest export market. You are assuming tariffs would be | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
imposed? Yes. But we also have trade agreements with 50 other countries. | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
I am not saying we couldn't reach the trade agreement with another | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
country but we would have more bargaining power. When negotiating | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
with China, they have 3 billion people and we are sitting on this | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
side of the table with half a billion people. I don't believe we | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
would have the same clout sitting on our own. On that basis, we finish. | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
Obviously that conversation with David and Chuka was incredibly | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
illuminating, but you'd be forgiven for getting rather confused | :08:26. | :08:27. | |
with all the facts and figures thrown about on the EU. | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
So if you have any burning questions do get in touch with us by tweeting | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
and include the word #dpeu or you can use the contact us | :08:36. | :08:44. | |
page on our website at bbc.co.uk/dailypolitics. | :08:45. | :08:46. | |
This Thursday we'll put your questions to | :08:47. | :08:48. | |
the Conservative's Sam Gyimah and Ukip's Paul Nuttall who I'm sure | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
will both do their very best to answer as clearly as possible. | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
After all the stress of the last few days you can hardly blame | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
Perhaps he doesn't want to come back. | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
is he planning to do this Easter break? | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
At the end of the show Chuka and David will give us the correct | :09:13. | :09:21. | |
Maybe they can tell is where they are going on their Easter break. | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
Now, in case you've had your head buried in the sand for a few days, | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
you're probably aware that all is not well | :09:33. | :09:34. | |
After Iain Duncan Smith's resignation on Friday, | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
the Prime Minister will today use a statement in the House of Commons | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
to defend a record of what he calls "modern, compassionate | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
Yesterday Mr Duncan Smith took to the airwaves to declare | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
that the Government was in "danger of drifting in a direction that | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
divides society rather than unites it". | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
His particular complaint was over initial plans to cut over ?4 billion | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
from the bill for disability benefits, which Mr Duncan Smith | :09:58. | :09:59. | |
He went on: "It just looks like we see this as a pot of money, | :10:00. | :10:08. | |
that it doesn't matter because they don't vote for us. | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
Today the Prime Minister will use a statement in the Commons | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
to respond to the criticisms and defend his record of "modern, | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
compassionate Conservatism" which he says has been his trademark | :10:21. | :10:22. | |
since he became party leader in 2005. | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
Last night Conservative grandee Sir Roger Gale criticised | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
Mr Duncan Smith, saying he was guilty of opportunism | :10:31. | :10:32. | |
at its absolute worst and suggested the former Work | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
and Pensions Secretary had an ulterior motive. | :10:37. | :10:46. | |
He went on to say the resignation was designed to do as much damage | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
In cause and in support of the Brexit cause as possible. | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
Today's Times makes further grim reading for the Government | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
with the Prime Minister reportedly telling a Cabinet colleague | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
that he blames George Osborne for the row over disability cuts. | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
Former Conservative leader Michael Howard urged MPs to calm | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
down and remember the party's collective responsibility | :11:14. | :11:15. | |
However, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said George Osborne needs | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
to come to the House of Commons and explain how | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
he will reconfigure his Budget in the wake of Iain Duncan Smith's | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
Our party is very, very clear that we want to protect the personal | :11:28. | :11:38. | |
independence payments for those with disabilities. The Budget doesn't add | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
up. The Chancellor of the Exchequer should come back to Parliament and | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
explain that. Far from just Iain Duncan Smith residing, if the | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
Chancellor puts forward a Budget, which he did, knowing full well that | :11:50. | :11:57. | |
he was taking this huge hit on the disabled, then really it should be | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
perhaps in considering his position as well as Iain Duncan Smith who has | :12:01. | :12:02. | |
already gone. Jeremy Corbyn. I'm joined now from central lobby | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
by Conservative MP Chris Philp, a member of the Treasury | :12:06. | :12:07. | |
Select Committee. Welcome back to the Daily Politics. | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
Iain Duncan Smith has said this Government is in danger of drifting | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
in a direction that divides society rather than uniting it. Is he wrong? | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
I think he is wrong. The Government's record is a good one. | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
800,000 people less Rian relative poverty than five years ago. Wages | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
are going up. Thousands of children no longer live workless households. | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
We have put through the biggest increase in the minimum wage at and | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
given gigantic tax cuts to people on low incomes by increasing the | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
personal threshold. This Government has a fantastic record of helping | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
people on low incomes. Taking the point about disabilities, we are | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
spending more on disabled benefits now that Labour were five years ago, | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
both in pound terms of real terms, and even if these changes go | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
through, which it looks like they will not, even without that, | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
disability spending would have increased by ?1 billion a year so I | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
disagree with Iain Duncan Smith's conclusions. So you stand by the | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
policy of restricting the personal independence payment even though the | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
changes will not happen? I think it is right that it should be reviewed | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
and it is a measure of the Government's maturity and | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
sensitivity that when a policy is proposed... That is not how it was | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
taken by Iain Duncan Smith. He did acknowledge that it was just a | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
consultation. It is a sign of the Government's maturity and | :13:36. | :13:37. | |
sensitivity that when something is criticised, they are willing to | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
think again, as they did over working tax credits. I think it is a | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
sign of strength and maturity and it is good to look again to make sure | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
that the things proposed actually work. The Conservatives make sure | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
that people who need help get that help and that is why disability | :13:53. | :13:54. | |
spending is higher now than it has ever been at any point in the | :13:55. | :14:12. | |
history of this country. You could call is majority or a backlash | :14:13. | :14:14. | |
trying to hold the party together and they are out of touch because | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
they did not predict this reaction, despite protests from Tory MPs about | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
changes to tax credits. What do you say about the judgment of George | :14:21. | :14:22. | |
Osborne? It was a consultation and when you are looking to do something | :14:23. | :14:24. | |
contentious and difficult, doing a consultation and listening to that | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
consultation is the right thing to do and it is exactly what happened. | :14:28. | :14:29. | |
When it comes to welfare reform, Iain Duncan Smith argued, even | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
though he has seen these things -- overseeing these things, everything | :14:33. | :14:40. | |
has fallen apart from pensioner benefits. How does that square with | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
the idea that we are in it together? The richest 1% in this country pay | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
30% of all taxes, a higher figure than under Labour. The richest in | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
society are paying their fair share, and in fact more than they used to. | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
But I am asking about benefits. Iain Duncan Smith said the problem was | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
the juxtaposition, what he saw as reductions to disability payments | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
and then at the same time offering cuts, tax breaks, to the middle | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
classes, with cuts in corporation tax, capital gains tax, and raising | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
the threshold at which you pay the 40p tax rate. That is not we are all | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
in this together. We will come to that but the biggest tax cut of all | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
is raising the threshold from 6000 to 11,000 500. The biggest change | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
disproportionately benefits people on low incomes. | :15:31. | :15:37. | |
Keeping manifesto promises is a good thing, not a bad thing. | :15:38. | :15:48. | |
One of the reasons why this country has create 2.4 million new jobs, | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
more than the rest of Europe put together, is because we cut | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
corporation tax from 28-17%, encouraging businesses to create | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
jobs. The way to combat poverty and help people earn more money is by | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
job creation. In fact, that is our strategy and it's working. It's not | :16:07. | :16:13. | |
sustainable. . We are 4% of the world's economy but 7% of the | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
world's welfare state spending so getting people off welfare and in | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
work is the right thing for the country and for individuals. 2.3 | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
million jobs is something we can be proud of. There was a suggestion IDS | :16:27. | :16:36. | |
has an Al tierior motive -- you will steerior motive, do you think he | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
did? It's difficult to know what an individual is thinking. I won't go | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
as far as questioning IDS's motives. Let's say he's concerned and it's a | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
coincidence it helps his Out campaign. Does it help it? Well, I | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
think he would probably think it destabilises the Government a little | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
bit and any resignation does. I'm happen Foy take it at face value and | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
happy to argue with him on his terms, as I think he's wrong on the | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
basis of the facts. People on low incomes are as a matter-of-fact | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
better off than five years ago. He should know. He's been the Work and | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
Pensions Secretary for an awfully long time. If we take it at face | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
value, that he was being authentic, particularly with the amount of work | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
he's done on this issue, if he's saying this actually really is sort | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
of attacking the very core of compassionate conservatism, that | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
really damages David Cameron and George Osborne's leadership? I think | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
IDS is simply wrong about that. If you look at the fact we are spending | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
more money today on disability benefits, than in the past, | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
including under the last Labour Government. The biggest ever | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
increase in the minimum wage is coming, helping people on lower | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
incomes, we are lifting millions of people out of income tax entirely, | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
the lowest paid. All those things help people on low incomes and back | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
to work. The record is one to be proud of. Tell even Crabb, where's | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
he going to find the ?4 billion for... It's ?1 billion a year which | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
is about 1% of the budget. Where should it come from? He needs to | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
have a look at that, think very carefully and make sure people | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
who're entitled to benefits claim them, particularly for the minor | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
conditions. The issues with the PIPs, people were getting points, | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
for example if people needed help getting their shoes on. That's not | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
right. The proposals need fine tuning. Some things do need | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
changing. The fundamental point is getting people off welfare, into | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
work, more people on disabilitiesing than ever before and we need to see | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
more than that -- on disabilities than ever before. Stay with us. | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
IDS sat at the Cabinet table, he will have listened to discussions | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
Pre-Budget, he's now resigning over a cut that isn't going to happen? It | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
goes back to something more fundamental than the single cut. You | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
saw it perhaps at its most clear in the general election when both David | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
Cameron and George Osborne were talking about 12 billion cuts in | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
welfare. But at the same time saying we are not going to cut Winter Fuel | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
Payments for wealthy pensioners, we are not going to cut free travel for | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
pensioners. He's got a budget of ?220 billion odd. Massive? So it's | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
natural George would look there. Over ?120 billion of it is pensioner | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
payments and that was off limits. He knew that because of the manifesto. | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
He's known for a long time and must be decided it would be part of the | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
discusses. He was exasperated by that happening time and time again. | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
He was forced to find a cut in the area which, for him, is fundamental. | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
This man's spent ten years of his life pretty much committed himself | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
to helping out the working poor, getting them back on the escalator, | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
off their backs because he believes they've ended up in that position | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
because of bad luck or bad breaks, bad family things, schools, | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
whatever. That's been fundamental. What he's I think felt over time, | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
time and time again, is that he's been handicapped in that by the fact | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
he's got to focus all his cuts, inevitably some cuts in this area, | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
all the cuts in that area. Why did you resign now, that's the thing. He | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
said the latest plan to restrict disability benefits was deeply | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
unfair and we have been through that with Chris. Isn't the truth though | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
that the original reform, the replacement of the Disability Living | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
Allowance with the personal independence payment PIT has been an | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
expensive fiasco, that's what it was called by the Public Accounts | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
Committee and that happened entirely on Iain Duncan Smith's watch. It's | :20:53. | :21:00. | |
expensive. That, as you said earlier, now looks withdrawn. He | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
still faces the problem of finding ?4 billion over four years from that | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
part of his budget. He's forced into that part of his budget which for | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
him he's done it time and time again. Universal Credit is looking | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
problematic because of the cost in constraint. All of that reflects a - | :21:18. | :21:26. | |
he thinks I suspect an assault on the central area of reform he wants | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
to bring about. As for why does it take him so long - to resign from a | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
job which is the centre of what you have been trying to do is an | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
incredibly painful thing to do. I know, I've been there. It's not easy | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
to do. No, so if he wanted to stay committed to the cause that he has | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
devoted so much time to, why did he resign at all unless there was an | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
ulterior motive to leave to EU? I think that's absolute nonsense. Do | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
you? Yes. Or did it poison Cabinet so much that he thought actually I'm | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
going to lose my job anyway? I don't think so. I saw arguments in the | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
Westminster village, most of it is nonsense. I don't know what the | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
atmosphere was, I don't think it's difficult. I think actually the fact | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
a referendum's been given's taken all of that poison out of the | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
debate. It's inflicted the Tory party in the past, no doubt about | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
it, but it's actually outside. You have Bill Cash and Bernard Jenkin | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
saying you did the right thing to allow a referendum because it takes | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
it outside Parliament, allows it to be a people's judgment. You can't | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
really ignore the context of the EU referendum here though. Iain Duncan | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
Smith was perhaps the most awkward and vociferous rebels against John | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
Major's Government over the Maastricht Treaty so even though it | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
didn't cause him to resign, collective responsibility's made | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
people feel they can do things they have not Don previously? The press | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
were excited about all the Cabinet Ministers being there and | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
campaigning to vote Leave. They were in the photo because they were | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
Cabinet Ministers. It gave them standing and leverage, normally the | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
backbench wouldn't have that. Had Iain Duncan Smith said I'm against | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
Europe, it wouldn't have made the back page, let alone the front-page | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
of the newspapers. This is not about that. You have got to understand, | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
Iain has been a man devoured by an aim... Also a bad relationship | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
between him and George Osborne that's gone on for a very long time, | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
very bad blood between them. Gossip columns... Oh, you know. People | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
underestimate because I'm afraid political journalists underestimate | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
that level of principle commitment. It's eaten him up over the years and | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
that's why it's been so painful for him to leave. Principles, he should | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
be a hero in Labour circles? This idea that he's a champion of the | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
disabled and the low-paid and those who need help is nonsense. | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
OK, he's recanted on personal independence payments, that is a | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
good thing, but he was the biggest champion of the bedroom tax and two | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
thirds of those who were hit by that ultimately were the disabled. But my | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
bigger sadness is not that it's taken him so long to recant, but | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
actually that if you look at polling on this and where the public are, | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
because we are increasingly becoming such a segregated society, many | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
people in work don't know people who're in receipt of benefits. You | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
look at the bedroom tax, a substantial part of the population | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
supported that, so one of the big questions is, how do we build | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
stronger bonds between us so there's greater understanding. The villain | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
of the peace here is George Osborne. He has, budget after budget, behaved | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
like a conartist going around telling people that he has | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
progressive budgets and those with the broader shoulders pay the | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
heaviest burden when we know that is anything but the case. IDS, if you | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
like, has exposed that in technicolour. That's why Jeremy | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
Corbyn was right that George should look at his own position because | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
he's ultimately responsible. I've got 788 people in my constituency in | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
receipt of this personal independent payment who face having this cut | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
unless hopefully we'll see a reversal. Sounds like it might be | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
shelved. They have already been clobber bid the bedroom tax which | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
was cruel beyond belief. Chris, is George Osborne's career finished in | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
trying to go for the leadership on the basis of what Chuka said? | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
Definitely not. Look at his record as Chancellor. We have had a massive | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
minimum wage increase, unemployment's gone down enormously. | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
We have created 2.3 million new jobs. Unememployment's fallen by a 5 | :25:49. | :26:01. | |
... 55... But Chris. David Willets, a minister in the last Parliament, | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
the resolution foundation's very clear, it's a respected independent | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
think-tank. The majority say, for example, of the income tax changes, | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
which will occur, will disproportionately benefit the top | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
10% of earners. You were wrong to suggest the low-paid will not be | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
paying tax. Of course they will be paying tax, they'll be paying | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
national insurance. This mantra, taking the low-paid out of tax all | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
together, it's nonsense. Out of income tax. Come on! Come on, it has | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
been a massive achievement of the coalition and this Government to | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
take a lot of the lowest paid out of income tax. It's a significant | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
component of their business. But hang on a second. You ought to | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
recognise that. Tax Credits, taking those things away. Use offset things | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
against that. You haven't been able to bring the party with you. Can he | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
still be leader, George Osborne? If there is a leadership contest in the | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
next few months, no, but beyond that, you know as well as I do, the | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
memory span of the Westminster village is a few months. Really, | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
amongst Tory MPs, they'll forgive him do you think? You will be his | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
campaign manager! Thank you very much! Before we let | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
Chris go, yes, you can announce your leadership! John Major famously | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
referred to the bustards at the time of his treaty. Has Iain Duncan Smith | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
graduated to that status again with his resignation? No, I find it hard | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
to understand because he ran on the manifesto and we got a majority | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
elected on the manifesto that included ?12 billion of welfare | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
savings so he can't claim it's a surprise. The policy he was objected | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
to, the PIPs will now be looked at again. So I find it surprising but I | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
wouldn't describe him in those terms, no. Are you going to run the | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
Chancellor's campaign for leadership then because you have defended him | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
vigorously? Listen, I defend the Government and the Chancellor | :28:06. | :28:08. | |
because I know they are doing a good job, there is no vacancy at the | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
moment and there won't be for some time to come, so we shouldn't engage | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
in speculation and we should focus on the job. | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
On Sunday the European Union's deal with Turkey to stop the migrant flow | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
from Turkey to Greece came into force. | :28:23. | :28:24. | |
Syrian migrants and refugees who arrive in Greece are now | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
expected to be sent back if their asylum claims | :28:28. | :28:29. | |
Despite that hundreds of migrants have continued to arrive.The BBC's | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
James Reynolds joins us now from Lesbos. | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
Do migrants arriving realise the rules have changed? | :28:40. | :28:48. | |
Not all of them. I was on the beach on Sunday morning as they cheered | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
when they arrived. It was suggested to me that they simply didn't know | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
the rules had changed and that they may not be able to stay in Europe | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
all that long. I explained to some they might have to go back and they | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
looked pretty devastated. The fact that more people have come today, | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
this morning, several hundred of them from less boss, clearly | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
indicates word's not crossed the Aegean that things have changed. In | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
that case, there are going to be more and more people, if you like, | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
stranded in Greece, some of them will be forcibly removed because | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
they won't want to claim asylum there because they want to get the | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
Germany, but what is going to happen to those people just sitting | :29:29. | :29:29. | |
waiting? Two sets of people here, I don't | :29:30. | :29:38. | |
want to go too much down a worm hole which might lose everyone if I try | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
to explain it. But essentially you have got at the moment, 45,000 to | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
50,000 migrants who will be abiding by the old rules, they are eligible | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
to stay in Europe and to be relocated. The trouble for them is | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
that no-one's stepped forward from Europe saying I'll have that lot, a | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
few here and a few there, so those people might be stranded in Greece. | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
The next lot, the second lot of people are those who've been | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
arriving since Sunday. The European essentially says if they do not have | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
the right to relocation, unless they have a valid asylum claim. If the | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
claims which would take place, some of them behind me, are refused, | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
they'll be turned back and taken to Turkey. | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
Thank you. Apologies for the poor line. It is technically not very | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
easy. We're joined by the Labour Peer Lord | :30:33. | :30:34. | |
Dubs who has an amendment in the Lords today to give 3000 | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
unaccompanied child refugees Welcome to the Daily Politics. | :30:38. | :30:48. | |
Before we get onto that amendment, it is early days, and do you think | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
of this one out and one in system will work? To be honest, I don't | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
know. The jury is out. The intention is a good one. That all people who | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
have the intention of becoming refugees should be able to claim | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
their status and have that status and the United Nations rules. Some | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
people are coming in and are clearly would-be refugees. Others are just | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
coming because it is another way of getting into Europe. I don't blame | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
them for that but it does not qualify under the refugee | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
Convention. You don't think there is something distasteful about a deal | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
predicated on migrants crossing from Turkey to Greece create this one for | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
one resettlement in Europe? If it works and it stops them leaving | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
Turkey, then it will be successful, provided that other people know that | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
the way to get into Europe is to claim refugee status, and if they | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
qualify then they can come in. What evidence is there that this will | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
deter anyone? We have seen the numbers turning up. James Reynolds | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
has said that the new rule changes have not got through to everyone, | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
but even when they do, do we think people wait to try and cross into | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
Europe when they are being bombed and shelled at home? Well, it will | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
have an effect. How big the effect is, we don't know, clearly. Look at | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
it the other way round. When Angela Merkel said come to Germany, it went | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
up. So I think it will go down. There are other aspects of the | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
agreement that much more problematic than that but I think at least this | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
may well reduce some of the flow, which means fewer people will die at | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
CMU Mediterranean, which is the most important thing. I agree with that. | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
I think we are capping the numbers we are taking at 70 2000. Yes, but | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
the claims in Europe were over 1 million in 2015. -- we are capping | :32:35. | :32:44. | |
the numbers at 72,000. Yes, but is it fair? Is that number of 72,000 a | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
fair number? It is not a fair world. The system is grotesquely unfair and | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
we have not found a way of dealing with it but this is an attempt to | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
deal with one aspect of it. I think there is a misinformation put that | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
goes on, as though this is the fault of the European Union. Isn't it? No. | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
J Hardy is in the Middle East, growing problems, and if we were not | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
in the European Union we would still have to grapple with this problem. | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
Yes, but some people have legitimately, I think, it said is | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
the EU cannot deal coherently with a problem like this then what is it | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
for? They need to do a better job. On the discussion of how many people | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
come in, I was talking about this in my speech today, that we need to | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
have a bigger discussion about what happens when people settle here and | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
how we had great damage to our communities. Be careful about that. | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
It is clearly the case that Schengen makes it more difficult to deal | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
with. A border free Europe makes migration flows more difficult to | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
deal with, which is why there is such tension between many of the | :33:56. | :34:05. | |
countries and Germany. When Angela Merkel said come to Germany, they | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
came to Europe, not just in Germany. But we are not in Schengen. I am | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
just making the point about how difficult it is for Europe to deal | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
with it. This difficult eastern border which is difficult to man | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
anyway. But if countries had taken quotas, it could have been handled | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
in a more systematic way. You would still have the flood and the problem | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
of managing where they are. Does it betray Europe's values? Shouldn't | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
the EU deal with this crisis? They could have taken quotas, individual | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
countries, rather than outsourcing the problem to Turkey at a price. | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
You asking not complicated things. Angela Merkel has become a | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
conscience of Europe. Who thought that would white meat -- who would | :34:49. | :34:58. | |
have thought that would happen? If other people had taken on the burden | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
sharing people, it would have been better, a better world. I think we | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
should have tried to do that. I think we should have tried to share. | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
Above all what we have got to do is find a way of stopping people | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
drowning in the seas. We have got to find a way of assessing whether they | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
are refugees or not. Other people come in as well and they don't claim | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
to be refugees. We have got to find a way of doing that and this latest | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
effort is an attempt to do that, so to this extent, it is fair. As for | :35:31. | :35:39. | |
the price to Turkey, should we be relying on Turkey? Poor human rights | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
record, freedom of the press is curtailed, so is this the country we | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
should be doing this sort of deal with? To be honest, I am not sure we | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
have any choice. They are the ones geographically in that position and | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
ensuring that we provide aid and support, and I think we are the | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
second-biggest contributor to that, so that people aren't making that | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
dangerous journey but they are closest to the territory from which | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
they have come, that is an important part of this. There is not one magic | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
solution to this. You need a sweep of measures. I worry about different | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
aspects of the deal. I don't worry about the exchange. That is sensible | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
and I don't worry about the subsidy. Visa free access to everybody with | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
Turkish papers is incredibly dangerous for European security, | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
because we know the Turkish Government has been helpful to Isil | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
and other jihadist groups, so what is to tell you the people the | :36:31. | :36:41. | |
Turkish papers are definitely takes? There is a serious issue hidden it | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
behind some sensible measures. What do you make of Lord Dubs's proposal | :36:45. | :36:46. | |
to take in 3000 unaccompanied children? We don't know. The British | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
Government has tried a number of things in advance of other | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
countries. We were the first to put money into countries around Syria, | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
and we are talking about large sums and I think we are still the | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
second-biggest in the world. We have tried to say that we will take | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
children from camps there because that will not have a pull factor | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
effect. That is still part of the 20,000? I think there is some | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
addition now, new proposal in the few days. I think the Government has | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
done a good job of trying to balance those two problems and I don't know | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
the details of this. The argument in favour of my amendment this | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
afternoon is that there are estimated to be 24,000 unaccompanied | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
child refugees in Europe. These children are possibly in Greece, | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
possibly Italy, possibly near Calais. They are vulnerable to | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
people traffickers, vulnerable to criminality, vulnerable to being | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
lured into prostitution. We owe them safety. The point of my amendment is | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
that 3000 would-be Britain's share of the larger total. We could handle | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
that. In 1938 we had 10,000 unaccompanied children coming in and | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
I was one of them. These are 3000. I think we can manage that. The crisis | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
is pretty severe, having young people homeless, adrift, sleeping in | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
the streets. We can't let that go on. How are you doing in terms of | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
getting support? Ask me later today! I am delighted that the public | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
response has been as it is. One backbencher like me would not | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
normally attract that kind of attention. People have said they | :38:25. | :38:26. | |
welcome it and we know people who have offered to be foster parents. | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
They have got to be vetted and so on. I think it is astonishing and I | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
am delighted. I think too often in the immigration debate it is boils | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
down to numbers. Because of the targets that the Home Secretary has | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
set. In the end we are talking about human beings. We are talking about | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
individuals. I think in the end as human beings we should do what we | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
can. I think 3000 compared to the 11,000 that we took in in the 1930s | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
is doable. The reason it boils down to numbers is... It doesn't. It is | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
human beings and that is my point. We don't distinguish between | :39:07. | :39:15. | |
refugees and... In my amendment. I know, but we are just answering this | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
point. The numbers have grown explosively. Economic migrants, | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
exactly, that is my point. Lord Leavey threatened to resign this | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
week are less Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader, made it absolutely | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
clear that anti-Semitism will not be tolerated in the Labour Party and he | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
said he has not gone far enough in cracking down on it. That Jeremy | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
Corbyn do more on that issue? I was at the meeting on Monday and he was | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
asked about this and he said adamantly that they totally abhor | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
racism and anti-Semitism, so it depends how much people hear what he | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
says. But you say there is a problem of anti-Semitism among some elements | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
of the far left. Jeremy Corbyn has already said that he despises racism | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
and anti-Semitism that is enough being done in the far left? Baroness | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
Royle is carrying out an investigation into what has happened | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
at the Oxford University Labour Club. It would be disingenuous to | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
deny that on fringes of the left their having problems with | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
anti-Semitism but if anyone can lead the charge in stamping it out and | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
showing zero tolerance to it, it is Jeremy. I am hopeful that he will do | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
that because we cannot stand for any discrimination or prejudice of any | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
type whatsoever in the Labour Party. I am dismayed that we are seeing the | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
reports that we are seeing but is beholden on us to stamp it out and | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
deal with it. I think that it absolutely clear and I agree with | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
you entirely but we have got to be careful that when people at critical | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
of Israeli Government policies, they are not accused of being | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
anti-Semitic, and some people merge the two and they are clearly totally | :40:58. | :40:59. | |
different. Yes. Thank you. Did you know you could get fined | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
for carrying golf bags And you're not allowed out | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
after 11pm if you're under It's all down to what's called | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
Public Space Protection Orders, essentially powers given to councils | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
in England and Wales to deal They've been seen by some | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
as the son of the ASBO, and in certain areas are proving | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
just as controversial. Ellie and producer Sam have | :41:19. | :41:20. | |
been to find out more in Hillingdon, and we should say no | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
Public Space Protection Orders were breached in the | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
making of this film. Welcome to the London Borough | :41:30. | :41:31. | |
of Hillingdon, where the council has It means you can get | :41:32. | :41:33. | |
into trouble for doing certain things like gathering | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
in groups of two or more. So Sam, my esteemed colleague and I, | :41:39. | :41:40. | |
decided to go into the shopping centre there and loiter, | :41:41. | :41:48. | |
where we could get fined up to ?100. Similarly, in the same area, | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
if I decided it would be easier for me to get around | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
by skateboard, I could In other parts of Hillingdon | :41:59. | :42:00. | |
it is not the skateboard they are worried about | :42:01. | :42:07. | |
but cars, specifically stationary or parked cars, | :42:08. | :42:09. | |
left with their engines running. Sam, have you left | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
the engine running? The idea behind it is to combat | :42:13. | :42:14. | |
anti-social behaviour. In set areas there is a ban | :42:15. | :42:22. | |
on spitting, and drinking alcohol It is stopping people for example | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
gathering in groups of more People mustn't spit | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
on the roads and that. The council has got | :42:32. | :42:45. | |
powers to stop and fine you if you are in that shopping | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
centre standing more than one of you, standing | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
together in a group. They are worried about | :42:54. | :42:55. | |
anti-social behaviour. Why should we be fined | :42:56. | :42:57. | |
for standing in a place? You know if there is | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
a group of elderly people standing there, | :43:03. | :43:13. | |
they will not get fined. Using a skateboard, pedal cycles, | :43:14. | :43:15. | |
rollerskates, rollerblades or other similar devices could land yourself | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
with a fine of ?100. I agree with that because they whizz | :43:19. | :43:20. | |
around and you have to put your brakes on really quickly | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
because you nearly Hillingdon isn't the only council | :43:25. | :43:25. | |
that's issued these Public Space One civil rights group | :43:26. | :43:39. | |
suggests there are at least The Local Government | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
Association says they offer a quicker response | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
than prosecuting offenders Surely the idea behind | :43:46. | :43:47. | |
this is just to give local councils the power to deal | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
with local problems. Well, it is all very well | :43:51. | :43:52. | |
for public authorities to say, "We are going to pass these very | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
vague and broad orders but you can trust us only to enforce them | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
in the right circumstances." We think that is wholly incompatible | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
with the rule of law. These orders create | :44:02. | :44:03. | |
criminal offences. When you are talking about criminal | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
offences people should be able whether or not they are on the wrong | :44:10. | :44:11. | |
side or the right side of the law and this kind of discretion is not | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
compatible with civil liberties. We did approach Hillingdon | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
Council for an interview Maybe they were worried | :44:20. | :44:21. | |
about being caught in a group of two I am very pleased to say they | :44:22. | :44:32. | |
managed to avoid arrest or finds in that film. | :44:33. | :44:34. | |
We're joined now by the Opposition Leader for Hammersmith | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
Fulham Council, Greg Smith, who for eight years was in charge | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
Some of these offences sound bizarre. Standing in a pan left your | :44:40. | :44:55. | |
after bus stop, that is Hillingdon Council's take on this. That is | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
surely a mistake. I think so. I am all for localism. When something | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
serious in a locality blows up and it is affecting people's lives, | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
noise, kids not being able to sleep, or not being able to get to achieve | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
station, as we had in Hammersmith and Fulham about ten years ago, but | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
the council to be able to react quickly for a short period of time | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
to solve that problem, that is what I am in favour of. Is it OK to have | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
a power where you are not allowed to assemble in groups of more than one? | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
We are seeing an increase in rough sleeping particularly in London. The | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
way to deal with that is not to criminalise a whole group of people | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
but is actually to ensure we build more homes and we have a massive | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
problem on that in London. Secondly, I worry about it disproportionately | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
being used against young people who increasingly are stereotyped and | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
demonised in British society and too often a are kind of painted as a | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
problem simply by convening together in a particular place. Yes because | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
what do you expect young people toe do? If they meet with friends with | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
skate boards, surely that's not a criminal offence? Totally. I'm not | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
suggesting I would want to see... Some local councils are? Sure. I | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
can't speak for other local councils, that's for them to answer. | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
Certainly I wouldn't want to see in Hammersmith or Fulham, restrictions | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
on one or two Kong are gating. For inexplicable reasons sometimes, | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
certain locations become megahotspots where suddenly you find | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
hundreds of people congregating in often small places, housing estates, | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
which is the way a lot were built in London makes them... And is | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
intimidating? Stops kids sleeping, and we need to do something about | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
it. Some of the evidence shows that it works apparently, for a short | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
period of time, as Greg was saying, to troubleshoot in local areas, if | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
you want to devolve powers, this is what you get? It depends how wide | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
the pow, you are that you devolve. This allows councils to translate | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
what would be a civil offence into a criminal offence. That is a power | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
devolution too far. I have a lot of sympathy with Greg's public order | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
issues and to some extent the police should deal with that as well. This | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
sort of thing can focus on rough sleepers, religious preachers and | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
people having a demo and using a megaphone. This is too broadly | :47:29. | :47:35. | |
drawn. So does it need to be... You narrow it down. So it's too broad. | :47:36. | :47:42. | |
Don't forget, often you end up with displacement. An issue in my borough | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
is prostitution. What you often find - I mean we are doing an inquiry on | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
the Home Affairs Select Committee on this now - but once you have moved | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
it from one area, you are simply displacing it to another place where | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
actually you need to get to grips with why it's happening. I have | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
sympathy with my constituencies, why is it that young people haven't got | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
enough to do? There are loads of different reasons for that which we | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
could fill a whole programme talking about. We'll leave you to think | :48:13. | :48:13. | |
about that. Thank you very much. Now, we've spent quite a lot of time | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
discussing the EU referendum but there are some other rather | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
important elections taking Here's our handy Daily Politics | :48:20. | :48:21. | |
guide. There are seven sets | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
of elections happening in May, all of which will take | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
place on the same day, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland | :48:30. | :48:31. | |
will hold national elections. There are 60 seats up for grabs | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
in the Welsh Assembly. The Scottish Parliament | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
will elect 129 seats, where the SNP currently | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
holds a majority. And in Northern Ireland | :48:43. | :48:44. | |
there are 108 seats which will be decided for representatives | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Across England there are local | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
government elections.124 councils 35 Metropolitan councils, | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
19 unitary authorities And four cities in England | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
will elect Mayors, London, Londoners will also elect members | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
to the London Assembly And finally, voters in 41 police | :49:07. | :49:13. | |
forces in England and Wales will elect a Police | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
and Crime Commissioner. And we're joined now from Glasgow | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
by the elections expert How important are the local | :49:23. | :49:33. | |
elections bearing in mind just over a month is the EU referendum? Well, | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
you use the word local elections but I think people in Northern Ireland, | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
Wales and Scotland would dispute that. For them, as you said, in your | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
earlier piece, these are national elections. The truth is, this is the | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
biggest set of mid term elections between now, certainly and 2019 when | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
we get the European elections. The truth is for Scotland, Wales and | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
Northern Ireland, their devolved assemblies are now clearly, for many | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
things, the principled body that makes decisions in those parts of | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
the UK. For London of course it's the London Mayor and that's become a | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
really important office inside the capital. The Police and Crime | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
Commissioner as well, the truth is many people struggle to understand | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
what that is about and they had an appallingly low turnout when the | :50:17. | :50:18. | |
first elections were held in November 2012. Again, the local | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
elections in England for people who have them, again, they'll determine | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
their local councils. This is certainly a big, important set of | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
elections. There's real power at stake here and, to that extent at | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
least, it will help shape the future of British politics through the next | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
four or five years. Let's look at Scotland. How do you rate Labour's | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
chances in terms of any recovery there. | :50:41. | :50:43. | |
Zero is almost the answer to that question. Right. The Labour Party is | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
struggling north of the border, it has been ever since the 2014 | :50:49. | :50:55. | |
independence referendum. Since then, politics in Scotland has been | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
primarily about are you for or against independence. Most who voted | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
yes look as though they are determined to vote for the SNP and | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
there's about a fifth of people who'll be willing to vote for the | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
SNP even though they didn't vote for independence because they like the | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
idea of SNP standing up for Scotland. The opinion polls at the | :51:18. | :51:19. | |
moment in Scotland put Labour at around a fifth of the vote, which, | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
if that were to transpire into the ballot boxes would be the party's | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
worst performance in any elections since and including the first | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
contest in 1918. So the SNP unassailable there because I presume | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
the Tories won't do much better than they are at the moment? Absolutely | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
correct. The Conservatives in Scotland look as though they are | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
towards the high end of the range within which they have been | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
oscillating ever since 1997 when they got a whitewash in the UK | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
general election. The polls putting them at around 17-18% and that's led | :51:52. | :51:59. | |
to excitement to speculation whether the Tories can get ahead of Labour. | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
It's second place over which there was excitement is not much | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
excitement over first. Just finally, the Mayoral election | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
in London, how important is that? Oh, this is undoubtedly important | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
because this is probably Jeremy Corbyn's best prospect of emerging | :52:18. | :52:19. | |
out of these elections with good news. Back in 2008 when the London | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
Mayoral contest was last, sorry, back in 2012 when the London Mayoral | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
contest was fought, Boris Johnson won, even though the party won to | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
the Greater London Assembly, he was perfectly clear it was a personal | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
vote for Boris Johnson. Zac Goldsmith doesn't have the same | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
personal vote, credit to him. The truth is, the opinion polls suggest | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
Sadiq Khan ought to wear the London Mayoral election and indeed Jeremy | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
Corbyn badly needs him to, because it could well be the case that it's | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
in London that the best news for the Labour Party comes. | :52:57. | :52:58. | |
Back to the fall-out from Iain Duncan Smith's resignation. | :52:59. | :53:00. | |
The self-styled quiet man of British politics certainly didn't go out | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
quietly yesterday when he appeared on the Andrew Marr Show. | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
Here he is responding to criticisms that his departure had more to do | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
with his opposition to the Prime Minister | :53:10. | :53:11. | |
and Chancellor's stance on the EU than concern for the disadvantaged. | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
I care for one thing and one thing only. | :53:15. | :53:16. | |
It is that the people that don't get the opportunities that my children | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
I want them given that opportunity and everything I have tried to do | :53:21. | :53:27. | |
Yes, we can debate some of those things that people didn't | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
like because they are more about the deficit than about welfare | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
reform, but overarchingly what I am passionate about is getting that | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
reform done so society is reformed, so we have more of those people | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
who have been left behind brought back into the sphere and the arena | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
We're joined now by Trevor Kavanagh of the Sun and Polly Toynbee | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
Welcome both of you. How much did the EU referendum play a part in | :53:51. | :53:59. | |
Iain Duncan Smith's decision to go at this point? I think the two | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
things are inseparable. I don't believe Iain would have left had the | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
European Union referendum not been under way. I think he was driven by | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
other motives which of course as he's explained very clearly, but I | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
don't think he was unconscious of the impact his resignation would | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
have on the Brexit campaign. Do you think he thought he was going to be | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
dumped anyway after the referendum? As I understand it, that'ses the way | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
things are shaping up. They also probably thought his Universal | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
Credit scheme was going to be ditched or frozen and I think that | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
he decided that all of that was, there was another battle to fight | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
which was Europe and he decided to fight that too. How does Labour make | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
the most out of this in terms of it improving its chances? Well, I think | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
it partly just sits and watches the bodies float by beside the river. I | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
think that what Iain Duncan Smith has done is to deliver a devastating | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
blow to the authority of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor and the | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
referendum campaign depends crucially on their authority. This | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
is very risky and Labour has to be careful not to do anything to | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
unsettle the campaign. Labour is united in wanting to stay in Europe. | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
Up to a point. Well, two Maveriks. A few more than two, but... Very few. | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
It's extraordinary and I think Labour has to keep its eye on the | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
ball about that referendum campaign and understand that what Iain Duncan | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
Smith is doing is undermining that. It's a difficult game to play | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
because of course, the other thing is that everything Iain Duncan Smith | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
says now utterly utterly overturns everything he's done. The sheer | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
cruelty of what he's imposed on people knowingly, of what goes on in | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
his Jobcentres that he's instructed to sanction people, to throw people | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
off benefits for almost nothing. Is it the end of compassionate | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
conservatism though either for the reasons Polly's put forward thatty | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
was in it all the way up to his next if you want to view it that way in | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
terms of welfare, or his very well laid out arguments yesterday on the | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
Marr programme that he was on a mission and he doesn't trust the | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
Government to deliver that mission any more actually, and that is | :56:16. | :56:17. | |
devastating for David Cameron and George Osborne? I think they could | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
argue that they have been successful with compassionate Conservatives. | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
There are a million more jobs created. They have to do something | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
about a ?100 billion budget on welfare, we can't afford it. The big | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
mistake was to ringfence pensions and Jeffers seas aid. Because that | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
doesn't leave them many options. What does it go d to George | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
Osborne's leadership chances? I think at this staining they are | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
finished. All together -- at this stage. David Davis said they are | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
finished for now? I don't think there's any hope of him becoming | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
leader and the Labour Party must be, it must be music to their ears, they | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
must be thinking, if only we'd picked someone other than Jeremy | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
Corbyn, they could be cashing in on this. In fact, all this cashing in, | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
the stuff about the personalities, it's a very... It's a principle | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
isn't it? There is a human face to what was going on. I've got 780 | :57:17. | :57:25. | |
people who're in receipt of personal independence payments, keen to see | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
what is going to happen to them and in the end, people have come in, | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
there have been reports of people who've committed suicide in my | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
constituency because of the harsh cruelty of what the welfare changes | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
are. I don't even like calling it welfare, we are calling it social | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
security. It's a human face and a reality. I don't care about | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
Osborne's career... I talked to Iain about this. I can tell you, this is | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
the passion of his life, welfare reform, getting people back into | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
work was what he cared about. Actually, in that respect, this | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
Government's been phenomenally successful. Interesting that all his | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
defenders are people like you who are Brexiters. People like Bernard | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
Jenkins never in his life expressed any tenderness towards the poor, | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
suddenly everyone is weeping crocodile tears. Is there Civil War | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
in the Tory party do weaning? Absolutely and it's only just | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
started. A bit of time for the quiz. Do you treble question, where is | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
David Cameron fleeing to this Easter? | :58:32. | :58:43. | |
Thank you for joining us. See you tomorrow at noon with the big | :58:44. | :58:53. | |
political stories of the day. Bye. ..and that's what | :58:54. | :59:05. | |
she felt with the blues. Most people can be oblivious | :59:06. | :59:07. | |
to what's going on around them, | :59:08. | :59:13. |