28/11/2016 Daily Politics


28/11/2016

Jo Coburn is joined by Stephen Crabb and Lisa Nandy with the latest news and debate from Westminster, including an interview with new UKIP leader Paul Nuttall.


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Transcript


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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The new leader of the UK Independence Party with 9622 votes,

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62.6% of the vote, Paul Nuttall. Paul Nuttall has been elected

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the new leader of Ukip. After a tumultuous few months,

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can he bring the fractious Theresa May has admitted that Brexit

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keeps her awake at night. Could another attempt to get

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the courts to scupper her plans, be about to contribute

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to her insomnia? Could forcing firms to reveal

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the gap between the highest and lowest paid employees be

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the answer to corporate # I didn't sell out

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I didn't give in And political songs slug it out

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to become Christmas number one. But which Jeremy Corbyn-inspired

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single will make it? And with us for the whole

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of the programme today is the Conservative MP and former

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Work and Pensions Secretary, And the Labour MP and former

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Shadow Cabinet Minister, Lisa Nandy. First, is a new legal

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challenge about to be launched that will put obstacles

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in the way of Theresa Lawyers are arguing that June's vote

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may have mandated our withdrawal from the European Union,

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but not a lesser-known organisation Theresa May has admitted that

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decisions over Brexit and this is just latest nightmare

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to disturb her sleep. Mark Carney, the Governor

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of the Bank of England, continues to haunt the Prime

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Minister after calling for a transitional period of two

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years to delay Britain's departure 80 Conservative MPs will today

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demand both EU residents in the UK and UK residents in the EU has given

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reciprocal rights following Brexit, saying people are not bargaining

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chips. Three of her more regular tormentors, Anna Soubry, Nick Clegg

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and Chuka Umunna joined forces this morning, saying British industry

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would be harmed by sector by sector free trade agreement instead of

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staying in the single market. And Theresa May has

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a fresh nightmare today with British Influence-backed lawyer

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Jolyon Maugham arguing that leaving the EU will not automatically mean

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leaving the European Economic Area - threatening to take the government

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back to court if it tries But will she be given any comfort

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today by her Polish counterpart, Beata Szydlo, who is meeting

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Theresa May at Downing Street. She says Poland will be

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a constructive partner to the UK and calls for a good compromise

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with the EU for Britain. Brexit may well be disturbing

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Jeremy Corbyn's sleep too. Yesterday, Shadow Foreign Secretary

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Emily Thornberry refused to rule out a second referendum on whatever

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Brexit deal emerged - a position apparently at odds

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with her Shadow Cabinet colleagues. And this morning Labour backbencher

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Dan Jarvis has said that any perceived failure to accept

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the voters' verdict on Brexit and immigration would act

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as a toxic mix for Labour. We're joined now by the former

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Northern Ireland Secretary and Leave campaigner,

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Theresa Villiers. Welcome. The referendum ballot paper

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asked people whether to stay in the EU, not the EEA. These lawyers have

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a right to say you have no mandate to take as out of the EEA and by

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definition the single market? And we are only in the EEA because we are a

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member of the EU, article two C of the EEA agreement makes it clear. I

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think the court proceedings will be dismissed because once we leave the

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EU we automatically ceased to be members of the EEA. You can be a

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member of the European free trade area without being a member of the

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EU, so don't the lawyers have a right to say if you want to

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underline that departure from the EEA, you would have to do it through

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Parliament? I believe this court case is another way to try to

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overturn the result and to muddy the waters, to delay things. Even in the

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worst-case scenario they turned out to be right and got it to the

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Supreme Court, the worst-case scenario would be Parliament would

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have to vote, in which case Parliament should get on and vote

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because that is the way to respect the result. Is it just an to prolong

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what they see as agony? Legal action has been launched by an organisation

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I had not heard of called British Influence, which sounds as if it

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should be vaguely pro-British but it is an organisation that promotes the

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European Union. They are trying to basically find a legal route to slow

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down or block Brexit. I do not think it changes the big picture, we are

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coming out and if we have to do a separate instrument through

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Parliament to technically get us out of the EEA, so be it. You would not

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support is staying in the economic area because you know the argument

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then would-be it would perhaps allow us to stay in the single market and

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give us access many would like to keep? I do not think staying in the

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EEA is consistent with what people voted for on the 23rd of June, which

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was to leave the EU, for a return of sovereignty and for British law to

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be superior to the law of the EU. Do you agree? Part of the difficulty is

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apart from the fact we know Britain voted by a majority to leave the

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European Union, we don't know what people were actually voting for or

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what it looks like and one reason the mess has ended up again in the

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courts is because we have not had clarity from the government about

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the shape of the Brexit deal. The way we should resolve this is have

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the debate in Parliament and with the public. We have accepted we are

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leaving, and five months after the vote, it beggars belief we have not

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made progress towards what that is. It will be held up as Lisa Nandy

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says, it will be potentially held up in the courts and the government has

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lost one case and it is going to the Supreme Court. Are you filled with

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confidence the government would win a second case on this argument about

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coming out of the European economic area? I am confident and it is clear

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the government would win the case. The important thing is to make

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progress on the negotiations and that will start once Article 50 is

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tabled. If the government has to introduce separate legislation in

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the way you conceded, in your case the worst-case scenario, they would

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have to repeal article 120 seven. Would MPs feel bound to vote the

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same way as with Article 50, all would they think twice? It makes for

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a more varied debate and there would be a diverse range of opinions

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expressed in Pollio. People need to listen to constituents and what they

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felt people voted for. I was on the Remains side, campaigning against

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this, but I have recognise what people were fundamentally voting

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for, and the phrase take back control, the most powerful phrase

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anyone spoke in the campaign, that is about sovereignty and about

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saying British laws will be made in Parliament and will not be

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counteracted by the European Court of Justice, it is about showing

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voters immigration policy is made within our shores, not in Brussels.

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If people want those things it is not consistent with staying in the

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EEA. If we remain in the EEA, do you agree the UK cannot take back

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control? I disagree with what Stephen Crabb said about taking back

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control. That became, it somehow captured the mood of people in

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constituencies like mine, but it was for the constituents I spoke to

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during the campaign about wanting to see real power over things that

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matter, whether recent quality work, time to spend with your family,

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being able to make decisions about local services. Part of the trouble

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is we had the referendum without real thought given by the government

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as to what comes next and suddenly we are in a studio in London trying

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to define what people meant all over the country, and we should have had

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that debate from the beginning. We will come back to that shortly,

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particularly the idea if we stayed in the EEA we would have to pay

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contributions to budgets and would have to have freedom of movement.

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Now, Ukip has a new leader - its second new leader

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Congratulations on your victory, pulled muscle. Why do you think

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members backed you over your rivals? Because I have not just talked the

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talk, I have walked the walk, been in the party 12 years and I am the

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most experienced candidate, having been chairman and head of policy,

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deputy leader six years and the party realises it has to come

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together and unify and stay on the pitch and hold the government's feet

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to the fire on Brexit and that is why I have the biggest mandate in

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the history of the party. Was it a fair contest? One of your fellow

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candidates, John Rees-Evans, said on this programme the election process

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has been compromised and alleged party officials may have misused

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databases to promote their favoured candidate, what do you say to him?

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That is not something I witness. The last leadership election, there were

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100 complaints and this election, apparently ten. It is minuscule. I

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think the election has been good-humoured and fair and precisely

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what Ukip has needed. The last thing Ukip would have needed is an

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election that involved in fighting and whatnot. We had a good-humoured

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contest and now we can move on. The party was so busy involved in months

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of chaotic infighting, how are you going to deal with that? I have

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never been part of any faction in the party, I generally get along

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with everyone. What happens the other month, in Strasbourg, when we

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had the altercation between two MEPs was probably the best thing that

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happened because everybody woke up, smelt the coffee and understood it

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was an existential crisis and it was my duty to step in, stand in this

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election, win it and bring the party together. One way you can bring the

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party together after difficult months is by the people you put on

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your team. You have your pointed? I have appointed Peter Whittle, the

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London Assembly member as deputy. I have appointed subject to approval

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Paul Oakden, party chairman, who has steered the ship brilliantly over

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the summer during these difficult months and I have appointed Patrick

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O'Flynn as senior political adviser and within the next 72 hours there

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will be appointments of party officers and spokespeople. I will

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hit the ground running. I know the party inside out and it will not be

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a problem. Not the most diverse group of people you have mentioned

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there, but what about Suzanne Evans, who also ran through leadership, why

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did you not give her something? If you hold your horses and wait, there

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will be an announcement regarding Suzanne Evans tomorrow. As I said at

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the hustings I will build a team of all talents and Suzanne Evans has a

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lot of talent. What is her job, tell us? I am not going to tell you. Why

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not? There is not much diversity in the group you have announced, would

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you agree? Come on, that is splitting hairs. I have appointed

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three people. Four. My team will be announced in the next 72 hours. This

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party will move forward. We have had problems over the last couple of

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months and now we will restructure the party and get ready for the

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battle ahead at Sleaford and by-elections hopefully next year as

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well. You were described as a reluctant leader and I think you

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thought about it before you went to the job. And it was suggested you

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lacks the steel necessary to sort out the difficulties that the party

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has experienced. What changed your mind and have you got the steel? The

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steel issue, the easy thing for me would be to step aside and drum the

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other faction out of the party, which would be the wrong thing to

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do. The Coward's thing to do. I showed steel because I said I would

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bring this thing back together and move it forward and turn it into a

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real movement of working people that will go into labour constituencies

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and hopefully in many areas replace the Labour Party. As for me wanting

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to do it, one reason I did it was because it is my duty. I watched

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over the summer the party I laugh and have helped build, begin to fall

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to bits. It is my duty to step in, steadied the ship and take it

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forward to bigger and better things. Let's pick up on some of the things

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you mention. On Brexit, how will you put pressure on the Government to

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deliver what you would like to see in terms of leaving the EU? Elect

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aurally. -- in terms of elections. The only way you change things in

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British politics is by being an electoral threat. We saw that in

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2013. The only reason Mr Cameron offered the referendum was because

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Ukip was growing in size, growing in the polls and becoming an electoral

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threat. That is how we will hold the Government's feet to the fire over

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Brexit. How will you bring Labour voters over to Ukip? Very easy.

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Jeremy Corbyn seems to be doing a very good job of that himself. We're

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now going to begin to speak the language of ordinary working people.

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We will move into the areas that the Labour Party have neglected.

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Working-class communities across the kingdom can have nothing in common

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with Jeremy Corbyn and the others. This north London, Islington set. We

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will focus on the issues that really matter to working-class people on

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the doorstep - immigration, crime, defence, foreign aid, ensuring

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British people are put to the top of the queue. We will go out there to

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campaign and you will see a big rise in the Ukip voting Labour areas

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under my leadership. If you expect to increase the vote, what would

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success looked like in terms of seats at the next general election?

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We would be looking for an improvement on the last one, which

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would not be difficult. We are looking at least to get into double

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figures. We're going to target sensibly, not have that scatter-gun

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approach we had in past. It is clear, the areas where we are now

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winning councils, drilling down in local communities and making a

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difference already. Use a double figures in the 2020 general election

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for Ukip. I would hope so, Jo. But you are putting me on the spot. I

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was only elected five minutes ago. But you haven't just stepped on

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leather Ukip stage, have you? You are not a new be in that sense.

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There was an accusation that the party misspent funds during the

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election campaign, and one of your own member said it would be no

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surprise if that had happened. What do you think? In our defence, we had

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two compliance officers who said everything was fine. We have done

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nothing different from any of the other pan-European parties, and we

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expect to be vindicated. In the end, this looks to me as if this is

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nothing but revenge for Brexit by the European Parliament. It could

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end up in the European court of justice and I absolutely 100%

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believe that we will be found innocent. You say you will bring the

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party together, but one of your big problems is that you have lost a lot

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of people, people defecting to the Tories, or becoming independent. It

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was hinted last week that Douglas Carswell could rejoin the Tory Party

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before the next election. Stephen -- Stephen Wolf, Diane James, these are

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people who came from the Tory Party. I just saw Douglas on the stairs. He

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won't be a problem. I am always sad when people leave the party, at any

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level. I hope that one day they may think about coming back under a new

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leadership. We have had a very difficult summer. It was as if Ukip

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won the referendum, stopped fighting the European Union, looked around

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and decided what else it could fight and decided to fight each other.

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That is over now, finished. We will look forward and not backward. Under

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my leadership, with a united Ukip, I would not want to be Labour and

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Conservative MPs, because if you are Ray Remainer, we're coming after

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you. -- if you are a Remainer. Nigel Farage will be a roaming voice for

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the party. I think you will find Nigel Farage will be a prominent

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voice for the party, on the airwaves and on TV shows like this. I'm sure

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he will be if he has anything to do with it. In terms of other

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elections, the French presidential election, would you back Marine Le

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Pen for that job? This leader of Ukip will not involve himself in any

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foreign elections. No view at all on it? This Ukip leader will not

:20:31.:20:36.

involve himself in any foreign elections, simple as that. I will be

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focusing on getting the party ready for 2020 in this country. Do you

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think it was a mistake for Nigel Farage to back Donald Trump? He has

:20:46.:20:54.

struck gold, hasn't he? He has been proven absolutely right. So you were

:20:55.:21:02.

wrong to criticise it? Yes will stop well, I didn't agree with some of

:21:03.:21:05.

the things Donald Trump was saying during the campaign. I thought in

:21:06.:21:08.

many ways he had the right messages but was the wrong candidate. Now he

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has won, it is clear he is an Anglophile and will put Britain at

:21:14.:21:16.

the front of the queue when it comes to a trade deal. And this is the guy

:21:17.:21:20.

who backed Brexit. The special relationship is going to be safer

:21:21.:21:24.

with the Trump Administration. Paul Nuttall, thank you very much. Lisa

:21:25.:21:30.

Nandy, Ukip speaking the language of ordinary working people. There is no

:21:31.:21:35.

real affinity in areas like yours with Jeremy Corbyn and the North

:21:36.:21:41.

London elite, as he calls them. The challenge for Paul is whether he can

:21:42.:21:46.

change the party. He said they want to learn to start speaking the

:21:47.:21:50.

language of ordinary people in the North of England, and although lots

:21:51.:21:54.

of people in constituencies like mine agreed with Ukip about wanting

:21:55.:21:57.

to leave the EU, they had precisely the opposite vision about what comes

:21:58.:22:04.

next. Even on immigration? Dan Jarvis has said today that those

:22:05.:22:08.

Labour MPs who do not accept the verdict of the referendum, as he saw

:22:09.:22:12.

it, a lot of it about immigration, will lose their seats. Yes, I think

:22:13.:22:18.

people want to see the impact of immigration dealt with, particularly

:22:19.:22:24.

where we were talking about attracting people into this country

:22:25.:22:28.

to be able to work in areas like the NHS, which has done a lot of good

:22:29.:22:34.

for our services. Young people were saying, we would love to work in the

:22:35.:22:37.

NHS, so why are you not investing in us too? People would like to see

:22:38.:22:43.

more money for the NHS as well. Is it just about impact or is it about

:22:44.:22:49.

fewer people, the numbers? It is about who comes, where they work and

:22:50.:22:52.

what impact that has. It depends, for example, if you are Ray

:22:53.:23:00.

tradesperson working in London where you are competing with migrant

:23:01.:23:04.

workers prepared to live in damp, dirty, overcrowded housing so that

:23:05.:23:09.

you can cut your costs and you seen your wages going down, I think that

:23:10.:23:14.

is about having a minimum level of skills and qualifications in order

:23:15.:23:18.

to drive wages up. If you are a young person in a town like Wigan,

:23:19.:23:22.

where you have just lost your nursing bursary and you are being

:23:23.:23:26.

told to thank your lucky stars that we can attract people into work in

:23:27.:23:30.

the NHS, then it is about ringing back the nursing bursary and that

:23:31.:23:34.

pathway for you. That means you won't reduce the numbers. In the

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end, people would want a straight answer on that. As well as the

:23:38.:23:41.

impact, would you reduce the numbers? It is not about an

:23:42.:23:45.

arbitrary cap, because that would damage public services. The problem

:23:46.:23:50.

Paul has got is that his party was fighting a campaign saying they

:23:51.:23:52.

would put more money into public services after the referendum, and

:23:53.:23:59.

what we have heard is that there will be more cuts to services as a

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result of leaving the EU. The net migration figures haven't come down

:24:06.:24:09.

to the tens of thousands over the last Parliament and still in this

:24:10.:24:12.

Parliament, so there is no point in having a cap will stop we set a

:24:13.:24:18.

target which we have not met. Which you could not meet the first time,

:24:19.:24:25.

and you are still far off. Nobody predicted the employment boom we

:24:26.:24:27.

have seen in the last four or five years. As a result, there are parts

:24:28.:24:31.

of the country where there is effectively full employment,

:24:32.:24:35.

business is saying, we need more workers because there is not the

:24:36.:24:42.

availability of young workers. I am open-minded about the immigration

:24:43.:24:45.

issue. For many people, when they voted for Britain to leave the EU,

:24:46.:24:50.

they wanted to see that immigration policy was coming back to the UK for

:24:51.:24:54.

full control. We need to have an honest debate about immigration in

:24:55.:24:58.

the future. The population structure is changing, we are becoming an

:24:59.:25:03.

older society. The truth is, we probably need more immigrants in the

:25:04.:25:06.

future, not less, to do all those jobs that the young talent pool

:25:07.:25:12.

isn't available to do. In a word, we need immigration - do you agree with

:25:13.:25:18.

Stephen? Because of our manifesto commitment, I support attempts to

:25:19.:25:21.

bring the numbers down below 100,000. Everyone acknowledges that

:25:22.:25:25.

will be difficult. Do you think it can be achieved? It is, I think. It

:25:26.:25:32.

will take a while, and it is not achievable until we take back

:25:33.:25:36.

control over immigration and bring free movement to an end. You would

:25:37.:25:41.

be prepared to bring the numbers down to the tens of thousands even

:25:42.:25:45.

if it affected public services and looking after an ageing population

:25:46.:25:49.

in the way Stephen Crabb outlined? And think it is possible to reduce

:25:50.:25:54.

it without damaging services. It is important for us to attempt to

:25:55.:25:58.

fulfil the commitment we made in our manifesto. It will take a long time

:25:59.:26:03.

and it won't be easy but we should not give up on it as an aspiration.

:26:04.:26:08.

Do you think you can do both? It is difficult to achieve. Foreign

:26:09.:26:15.

students, it is ridiculous to count those in our figures. It is a good

:26:16.:26:19.

thing for people to come and study in our universities. They bring in

:26:20.:26:23.

cash from overseas and should not be counted. I think this is cheap

:26:24.:26:27.

politics because you are trying to pretend to people that you can fix

:26:28.:26:31.

some very real problems in their lives by having an arbiter 's target

:26:32.:26:36.

-- by having an arbitrary target around numbers. It will lead a much

:26:37.:26:41.

smaller working age population trying to pay for the welfare state

:26:42.:26:46.

that supports the very old and the very young. Not only are you going

:26:47.:26:51.

into that with no plan about how to mitigate the damage to public

:26:52.:26:54.

services, but you're not saying anything about investing in young

:26:55.:26:57.

people in towns like mine so that they can compete in the system we

:26:58.:27:01.

have. We want to invest in young people to give them the skills they

:27:02.:27:07.

need to get these jobs. Why are you not doing it? We have to respond to

:27:08.:27:12.

public concern about unsustainable levels of migration. I am not saying

:27:13.:27:16.

that we should bring it down to zero. Of course, migration should

:27:17.:27:24.

continue and it can help our economy, but it needs to be a

:27:25.:27:26.

sustainable levels if we are to respond to the result of the

:27:27.:27:28.

referendum and the public concern that there is. Our job as

:27:29.:27:31.

politicians is to solve some of the real problems this country has. You

:27:32.:27:34.

are arguing, essentially, that all you want to do is respond to

:27:35.:27:37.

something you have heard rather than to lead the country forward. No, I

:27:38.:27:42.

am saying I was elected on a manifesto that made a commitment to

:27:43.:27:47.

bring down net migration. We will have to leave it there, except just

:27:48.:28:00.

briefly to ask, Emily Thornbury suggested that the Labour policy was

:28:01.:28:05.

that Labour will not frustrate the will of the people as a result of

:28:06.:28:09.

the referendum and will not try to blog article 50 being triggered?

:28:10.:28:14.

Yesterday I said I did not think there was a strong appetite in the

:28:15.:28:18.

country for a second referendum, certainly not from my constituents.

:28:19.:28:24.

From Labour MPs? Most feel that we had the referendum, made the

:28:25.:28:27.

argument and lost, so now our job is to get on with it. Why is Emily

:28:28.:28:32.

Thornbury not being clear about the Labour line? She did what a lot of

:28:33.:28:41.

politicians do, she answered the question she wanted to rather than

:28:42.:28:45.

the point that was being made. Our job five months after the vote is to

:28:46.:28:51.

make sure that we have some say in what Britain looks like after Brexit

:28:52.:28:55.

rather than rehashing old arguments. Thank you.

:28:56.:28:57.

Now it's time for our daily quiz, which today is all about Francois

:28:58.:29:00.

Fillon, the Thatcher-admiring, car-loving, French Republican

:29:01.:29:02.

presidential candidate, who is married to a Brit.

:29:03.:29:04.

But what is Monsieur Fillon's nickname?

:29:05.:29:07.

At the end of the show, Stephen and Lisa will give us

:29:08.:29:22.

I didn't know what it was I love. -- what it was either.

:29:23.:29:32.

It's the band you've always wanted to see.

:29:33.:29:34.

You get online as soon as the tickets are released -

:29:35.:29:37.

Have genuine fans really snapped up the tickets that quickly,

:29:38.:29:40.

or are ticket touts buying them in bulk so they can sell them

:29:41.:29:44.

on at much higher prices on ticket reselling websites?

:29:45.:29:46.

That's what many genuine fans suspect and now there's a campaign

:29:47.:29:48.

Josh Franceschi of the band You Me At Six went back to one

:29:49.:29:53.

of his favourite venues, Alexandra Palace in North London,

:29:54.:29:55.

And I should warn you that there is some flash

:29:56.:29:58.

Rock 'n' roll is about breaking boundaries, about enjoying yourself,

:29:59.:30:17.

but if there's one thing threatening the new music industry

:30:18.:30:20.

I don't just mean the people standing outside the venue.

:30:21.:30:30.

That's illegal without a street trading

:30:31.:30:32.

I'm talking about online ticket touts, individuals or

:30:33.:30:37.

businesses who scalp masses of tickets, often

:30:38.:30:41.

using a specialised botnet software so they can

:30:42.:30:43.

When a gig is announced, fans head to primary

:30:44.:30:49.

ticket websites, often to be told it's sold out,

:30:50.:30:51.

It's the touts who bought them, forcing fans

:30:52.:30:56.

to pay hiked up prices on secondary websites.

:30:57.:30:59.

These secondary websites masquerade as fan-to-fan

:31:00.:31:02.

marketplaces, but as we highlighted at the Culture, Media and Sport

:31:03.:31:07.

select committee, they are all dependent on hard-core ticket touts.

:31:08.:31:11.

One of Stub Hub's major clients was recently outed as a man

:31:12.:31:14.

from Quebec who is still scalping and reselling

:31:15.:31:16.

Enough is enough - genuine fans are being priced

:31:17.:31:21.

Music lovers are consumers too, and consumers have rights.

:31:22.:31:26.

In New York, legislation is in place.

:31:27.:31:28.

Those profiteering should face prison or a fine.

:31:29.:31:39.

This goes beyond consumer protection.

:31:40.:31:43.

A number of music businesses have come together

:31:44.:31:48.

to fight back with a new campaign called the Fan Fair Alliance.

:31:49.:31:51.

This is an industry that's already suffering

:31:52.:31:53.

from a lack of money coming into it in other ways.

:31:54.:31:56.

If we want the live community to thrive, we need this to

:31:57.:31:58.

And we're also joined by the Conservative MP Nigel Adams,

:31:59.:32:09.

Ticket resale sites provided important service if you miss out

:32:10.:32:26.

first time around? They serve a purpose but I think it is about

:32:27.:32:31.

there being a cut-off point as to how far prices can be inflated. Some

:32:32.:32:40.

websites offer resale mechanisms but that is at face value and there are

:32:41.:32:45.

websites a little bit more, what we would say at the fairer end of the

:32:46.:32:50.

scale. Websites charging 20 times the resale price. Give me an

:32:51.:33:00.

example? Tickets can go for? Way into their thousands. There was a

:33:01.:33:04.

study with Phil Collins and I believe it got to ?4000 for two

:33:05.:33:10.

tickets. Were they sold out in 15 seconds or something? How can that

:33:11.:33:16.

be? I think we have all tried to get tickets, I have tried with a couple

:33:17.:33:20.

of iPads and failed recently to do it. Should there be technology to

:33:21.:33:26.

stop people buying in bulk? A lot of the primary ticket companies have

:33:27.:33:30.

technology to try to stop it happening but it is a technological

:33:31.:33:35.

arms race and the touts are very good at it. They have these bots

:33:36.:33:43.

that hoover up hundreds and thousands of tickets and within

:33:44.:33:48.

seconds they are for resale on other websites at inflated prices. Will

:33:49.:33:52.

legislation do what you want it to do if it is about a technological

:33:53.:33:58.

arms race? I believe it will. Josh has been fantastically supportive.

:33:59.:34:06.

He took it upon himself to sell tickets director fans across the

:34:07.:34:09.

counter in a shop. There is a problem. It is not a silver bullet

:34:10.:34:16.

to ban the bots and make it an offence, but they do it in certain

:34:17.:34:20.

states in America where you can now go to prison. I want to make it an

:34:21.:34:26.

imprisonable offence as well but there are other things we need to do

:34:27.:34:31.

as well. Do you support that? Yes. For people to go to jail, for there

:34:32.:34:36.

to be a prison sentence, do you think it will work as a deterrent? I

:34:37.:34:41.

think it will work as a deterrent. It is not about me trying to lock

:34:42.:34:47.

people up, it is trying to get the situation changed for fans of live

:34:48.:34:52.

music because daily I interact with the fine base, whether face-to-face

:34:53.:34:58.

or through social media -- fan base. Many are priced out of the equation

:34:59.:35:01.

and that is my fundamental issue with it. A ticket resale company

:35:02.:35:08.

mentioned in the film said they support legislation to stop bots

:35:09.:35:18.

misuse. They say they have consistently supported legislation

:35:19.:35:24.

and gave evidence to a committee in the Senate on the subject. They go

:35:25.:35:29.

on to say legislation alone cannot solve it so what else needs to be

:35:30.:35:35.

done? I think we need to be looking at how tickets are released and in

:35:36.:35:41.

some cases you have artists and managers who might be complicit.

:35:42.:35:45.

Touting has been going on since the Romans have put on shows in the

:35:46.:35:49.

Colosseum but we will not entirely move this away but we need to take

:35:50.:35:55.

action. Having this as an offence is a step in the right direction. Is it

:35:56.:36:01.

a good idea? Yes, it sounds exactly right. It is striking a balance,

:36:02.:36:06.

because nobody wants to stop the process of selling on a ticket you

:36:07.:36:09.

might not need and even getting a little bit of a margin. It is making

:36:10.:36:16.

sure people cannot profiteer and in terms of hoovering up tickets,

:36:17.:36:20.

surely that is a crime. Is it a pressing issue for you? Yes, along

:36:21.:36:28.

with the work Nigel has done, my colleague Sharon Hodgson has

:36:29.:36:32.

campaigned on this and that is because for our constituents it

:36:33.:36:38.

matters. It is not just the fan experience, but it also strangles an

:36:39.:36:42.

industry that is important for Britain and brings pleasure to a lot

:36:43.:36:45.

of people and these people are parasites and need to be dealt with,

:36:46.:36:49.

so well done. Have you tried to get tickets? I have been unsuccessful. I

:36:50.:36:57.

got my Britney tickets but had to use three phones. I got through in

:36:58.:37:02.

20 minutes. I can confirm she was brilliant. It was worthwhile? I lost

:37:03.:37:08.

out on Kate Bush. Should ministers get behind this? Absolutely. The

:37:09.:37:14.

Culture Secretary takes it seriously and is having meetings today

:37:15.:37:18.

regarding law enforcement of this and I meet her on Wednesday at the

:37:19.:37:24.

Department with industry representatives. We have an

:37:25.:37:28.

opportunity. We will debate it a day in the report stage of the digital

:37:29.:37:33.

economy Bill. It is a cross-party supported issue. The only people

:37:34.:37:39.

presumably not in favour are the stand Flashmans of this world. You

:37:40.:37:44.

are confident this will make a difference? I am and I think more

:37:45.:37:49.

artists should speak up for their fans on this issue. It does not take

:37:50.:37:53.

much to put your name on something and it is worth putting your name

:37:54.:37:57.

on. We are confident it will be passed.

:37:58.:38:00.

Now, the big question this week is, which British politicians will be

:38:01.:38:04.

boarding a plane to Havana to attend Fidel Castro's funeral?

:38:05.:38:06.

Jeremy Corbyn - probably, Boris Johnson - maybe.

:38:07.:38:11.

But what's in store for those of us marooned on a North Atlantic rather

:38:12.:38:15.

Today, Theresa May hosts the Polish Prime Minister

:38:16.:38:19.

at Downing Street in the latest bilateral meeting with EU leaders

:38:20.:38:22.

before formal Brexit negotiations start next year.

:38:23.:38:26.

They'll also discuss the deployment of British troops

:38:27.:38:29.

On Tuesday, the government will publish a Green Paper

:38:30.:38:36.

on corporate governance that will include proposals to make

:38:37.:38:40.

companies publish information on the the ratio between their

:38:41.:38:42.

On Wednesday, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn will meet

:38:43.:38:48.

And Thursday is the by-election in Richmond Park in south-west

:38:49.:38:55.

London, which was triggered by the resignation of Zac Goldsmith

:38:56.:38:57.

following the government's decision to back a third runway a Heathrow.

:38:58.:39:04.

We're joined now by the joint political editor of the Guardian,

:39:05.:39:06.

Heather Stewart, and Jim Waterson of Buzzfeed.

:39:07.:39:10.

Welcome. Nick Clegg has said the Richmond by-election result if the

:39:11.:39:20.

Lib Dems win could mark a turning point in the government's direction

:39:21.:39:26.

on Brexit, do you agree? Zac Goldsmith triggered the by-election,

:39:27.:39:29.

resigning over Heathrow but no candidate is standing who would back

:39:30.:39:36.

the third runway so it has become about Brexit and an opportunity for

:39:37.:39:39.

the Liberal Democrats to prove they can turn people'sanguish about what

:39:40.:39:45.

is going into an electoral fight back for them but it remains to be

:39:46.:39:49.

seen whether they can do so but they have thrown the kitchen sink at it.

:39:50.:39:53.

I do not know how many invitations to go down... Every single day. We

:39:54.:40:02.

will see. If they won, would it marked a seismic change? It would

:40:03.:40:12.

increase their number of MPs by one. The only way is up for them because

:40:13.:40:17.

they are in a terrible position but there is optimism if you talk to

:40:18.:40:21.

them. They say you have to be a bit mad to be Lib Dem at the moment but

:40:22.:40:26.

it is fun. We are starting to break in suburban Lib Dem Tory seats. And

:40:27.:40:33.

some of the Labour suburban seats. They are going for suburban seats

:40:34.:40:38.

where previously Lib Dems could think of getting MPs. Richmond, they

:40:39.:40:42.

have a very good chance. On Brexit will it change the terms? I'm not

:40:43.:40:49.

sure it will put the pressure on Theresa May at the moment is to give

:40:50.:40:55.

us more detail and information. She is saying no running commentary. But

:40:56.:41:00.

a lot of politicians are giving us a running commentary from the other

:41:01.:41:03.

side of the channel but if the Lib Dems perform strongly it would put a

:41:04.:41:07.

certain amount of pressure on Theresa May and tell us more about

:41:08.:41:11.

how she will handle this and perhaps to retain a closer relationship but

:41:12.:41:15.

she has her backbenchers shouting saying, let's do it now. One of the

:41:16.:41:21.

other issues she made prominent when she became leader and Prime Minister

:41:22.:41:26.

was corporate governance. Workers on boards. As she abandoned her

:41:27.:41:31.

promises? She said she would like to see workers on boards of companies.

:41:32.:41:38.

Has it gone? We will have to see what is in the consultation but

:41:39.:41:43.

potentially we are less likely to see one of your mates elevated to

:41:44.:41:46.

board level and sitting around having coffee with the chairman

:41:47.:41:49.

discussing the future of the company. The bit that is interesting

:41:50.:41:54.

is whether they will introduce public pay ratios so you will see

:41:55.:41:57.

how much you earn compared to the boss, or how much the average pay in

:41:58.:42:02.

the organisation is, which Vince Cable proposed in the coalition but

:42:03.:42:06.

dropped when he was told Goldman Sachs would look more equal than at

:42:07.:42:16.

Waitrose or John Lewis. Why do you think she seems to be backing away

:42:17.:42:22.

from some of these issues. It is a short period in which to perform a

:42:23.:42:28.

U-turn but I think she is anxious about business reaction. There was a

:42:29.:42:33.

big business backlash after her conference speech when she appeared

:42:34.:42:39.

to signal a more interventionist approach, with Ed Miliband type

:42:40.:42:44.

policies. Businesses are anxious anyway because of Brexit and

:42:45.:42:48.

uncertainties so there is some nervousness but it is rapid to have

:42:49.:42:51.

proposed these things and be rowing back already. What about Fidel

:42:52.:42:57.

Castro? Who will go? Should Jeremy Corbyn go? He wants to. Jeremy

:42:58.:43:03.

Corbyn probably never dream team would be considered for an invite to

:43:04.:43:08.

Fidel Castro's funeral and now he has this opportunity and he is told

:43:09.:43:12.

he is not necessarily allowed to take it because it might make it

:43:13.:43:16.

look bad for his party. I feel sorry for this guy. His chance to get over

:43:17.:43:26.

their and get stuck in. Now he has MPs telling him it would be wildly

:43:27.:43:31.

inappropriate. What does Lisa Nandy say? Should he go? I would not go

:43:32.:43:38.

out of respect for people who have died or suffered under Castro but we

:43:39.:43:42.

owe it to them and the rest of the world to take a proper assessment of

:43:43.:43:48.

Castro's legacy. How was it this guy who has been criticised rightly by

:43:49.:43:53.

human rights organisations for the brutality of his regime also came to

:43:54.:43:58.

be held as a hero by Nelson Mandela? To understand that you have to

:43:59.:44:02.

understand the role the US has played against Cuban people and

:44:03.:44:07.

their interests. What I have seen in the last few days is so many people

:44:08.:44:12.

trying to take the complexity out of politics and it is tempting to do

:44:13.:44:16.

but ultimately a destructive thing to do. Many people suffered and lost

:44:17.:44:20.

their lives while Fidel Castro was in power and it is more complicated

:44:21.:44:25.

than it looks. There is a David and Goliath tale in terms of how Cuba

:44:26.:44:31.

managed to hold America to ransom. You should the British Government

:44:32.:44:36.

send? I am sure the Foreign Office have protocols. They will be reading

:44:37.:44:40.

them. The correct rank of minister to go. Not Boris, please. It

:44:41.:44:47.

probably will not be Boris. It is right we should send somebody but we

:44:48.:44:51.

should do it being absolutely clear that this is a man who represented

:44:52.:44:55.

an ideology that cause destruction not just in Cuba but around the

:44:56.:45:00.

world, he imprisoned thousands, murdered his own citizens, no need

:45:01.:45:02.

to shed a tear for him. Let's pick up on one of those

:45:03.:45:05.

stories with our guests here in the studio -

:45:06.:45:07.

the proposals to force companies to publish information

:45:08.:45:10.

about the difference between the highest

:45:11.:45:11.

and lowest paid employees. It's been one of the themes

:45:12.:45:13.

of Theresa May's premiership. Here's what she said on the subject

:45:14.:45:15.

at the launch of her leadership bid The FTSE, for example,

:45:16.:45:18.

is trading at about the same level it was 18 years ago,

:45:19.:45:25.

and it's nearly 10% below its Yet, in the same period,

:45:26.:45:27.

executive pay has more than trebled, and there is an irrational,

:45:28.:45:31.

unhealthy and growing gap between what these companies

:45:32.:45:34.

pay their workers and what So, as part of the changes

:45:35.:45:36.

I want to make to corporate governance, I want to make

:45:37.:45:43.

shareholder votes on corporate pay I want to see more transparency,

:45:44.:45:46.

including the full disclosure of bonus targets and the publication

:45:47.:45:53.

of pay multiple data - that is, the ratio between CEOs' pay

:45:54.:45:56.

and the Theresa May said it, it's the

:45:57.:46:09.

difference between the earnings of the chief executive and the average

:46:10.:46:12.

employee when it came to forcing companies to publish pay ratios, not

:46:13.:46:19.

the lowest and the highs, necessarily. Do you support that,

:46:20.:46:24.

Stephen Crabb? I like the idea, not because I think it will achieve a

:46:25.:46:29.

huge amount on its own. It represents an approach we are taking

:46:30.:46:33.

to the corporate world, saying, look, in the 21st century we need a

:46:34.:46:38.

more responsible capitalism in our society, we want business is doing

:46:39.:46:41.

the right thing. By using the pay ratio as a lever for shining a light

:46:42.:46:47.

on wider business practices, that is really important. As we just heard,

:46:48.:46:51.

and no doubt some of the companies would argue this, it can create

:46:52.:46:58.

misleading comparisons if in the end you distort to some extent what the

:46:59.:47:02.

pay ratio is between the highest and the average employee. Who would that

:47:03.:47:07.

benefit? Sure, there will be imperfections. It is not a perfect

:47:08.:47:12.

tool, but the very fact that you are encouraging businesses to do it

:47:13.:47:15.

means that they will have to have that conversation at board level,

:47:16.:47:19.

have that discussion in the company, and that is a healthy thing. Do you

:47:20.:47:25.

think it is a good idea? Theresa May talked about average pay is being

:47:26.:47:30.

compared to the highest pay, which cuts out what is happening at the

:47:31.:47:33.

bottom of the scale. The reason it is important is not just because

:47:34.:47:38.

there are huge gaps in wealth in the country but because businesses that

:47:39.:47:42.

try to take all their employees with them, reinvest in local communities

:47:43.:47:46.

and make sure they put pounds in the pockets of the people who spend

:47:47.:47:50.

them, these are the businesses that tend to do well and help build the

:47:51.:47:55.

economy. It is about a long-term business approach, not a quick,

:47:56.:47:59.

short term gain approach, which has been damaging before. It is

:48:00.:48:03.

important that she gets the detail right. What about the point that if

:48:04.:48:06.

you cannot take businesses with you and you alienate them, and a lot of

:48:07.:48:15.

people argue she is moving away from her original rhetoric, is the tone.

:48:16.:48:21.

Businesses did not like it. There are businesses the other day, such

:48:22.:48:31.

as Lidl the other day saying they would pay the living wage. There are

:48:32.:48:36.

companies that want to invest in the workforce and put something back

:48:37.:48:38.

into the community, and those are the ones that Prime Minister should

:48:39.:48:45.

be supporting. Company should publish the pay of its top earner

:48:46.:48:50.

compared to its average employee and if it can be justified by

:48:51.:48:54.

performance, they would have nothing to fear. Who said that? Ed Miliband?

:48:55.:49:09.

Yes. How about this - employees should be on remuneration

:49:10.:49:16.

committees. Same guy? The Labour manifesto. So the Conservative Party

:49:17.:49:22.

has shamelessly stolen labour ideas, ideas which you criticised the

:49:23.:49:26.

separately when they were suggested. It is about responding to what

:49:27.:49:31.

voters are saying. We did not spend the month in the referendum campaign

:49:32.:49:35.

talking just about Europe. We talked about jobs, people's working lives

:49:36.:49:39.

and other things they felt discontent about. This is one of the

:49:40.:49:45.

things we have taken from that. Theresa May talked about this during

:49:46.:49:48.

the leadership campaign, but so did other people back in July. It is

:49:49.:49:53.

healthy. Except that Theresa May is now backing away from some of those

:49:54.:50:00.

ideas she was aping from Labour. We will wait and see in the Green

:50:01.:50:04.

paper. It should be the start of a wide-ranging discussion. Ed Miliband

:50:05.:50:11.

is having some fun with his tweets. What is your response? Ed is having

:50:12.:50:18.

a bit of fun there. Let's look at what is in the Green paper tomorrow.

:50:19.:50:24.

Lisa is right - the vast majority of businesses in the country are run by

:50:25.:50:28.

decent people looking to great value for the company and for the wider

:50:29.:50:33.

economy. We want to share the spotlight on the things that need

:50:34.:50:43.

improved. Like putting workers on the board? That sounded like a

:50:44.:50:46.

gimmick, to be honest. I am interested in how we can strengthen

:50:47.:50:52.

workers' voices within the company. I am impressed in some companies by

:50:53.:50:58.

how good relations are between the bosses and the unions. It's a

:50:59.:51:02.

gimmick? It is patronising to say you want to give workers a voice but

:51:03.:51:05.

shut them out of the boardroom. This is about restoring power to workers

:51:06.:51:11.

over the things that affect their lives will stop workers in

:51:12.:51:16.

companies, as most decent business leaders will tell you, are the

:51:17.:51:21.

greatest asset that any company has. They are the people who drive the

:51:22.:51:24.

company and build the wealth that is then reinvested in the company and

:51:25.:51:28.

which lines the pockets of shareholders too. Are there other

:51:29.:51:34.

ways of giving employees a voice other than putting them on the

:51:35.:51:38.

board? There are lots of ways. The co-op model, where the company is

:51:39.:51:44.

actually owned by the workforce and decisions are made cooperatively

:51:45.:51:48.

between those workers and the management. Trade unions are another

:51:49.:51:51.

way that you give workers a strong voice. There are lots of things that

:51:52.:52:00.

can be done. The problem with what Theresa May is doing is that she is

:52:01.:52:07.

willing the ends but will not countenance the means. These were

:52:08.:52:13.

considered anti-business when Labour suggested them but they are sensible

:52:14.:52:15.

and reasonable when the Conservatives do? You have a more

:52:16.:52:20.

sensible discussion with business when you have Conservatives in

:52:21.:52:25.

office generally. I will give you the last word. Is that true? This is

:52:26.:52:34.

such an outdated point of view. This is a party formed by and for working

:52:35.:52:39.

people. We have strong relationships up and down the country. We believe

:52:40.:52:46.

it there. Now, if you were watching

:52:47.:52:48.

the programme a couple of weeks ago you will have heard the song that's

:52:49.:52:51.

surely to a shoo-in you will have heard the song that's

:52:52.:52:58.

surely to be a shoo-in No, not James Corden or a re-release

:52:59.:53:01.

of Leonard Cohen's Halleluiah, I speak, of course, of the "JC

:53:02.:53:04.

for PM" track written and performed But we can now reveal exclusively

:53:05.:53:08.

on this programme that Yes, the team behind the satirical

:53:09.:53:12.

play "Corbyn: The Musical" are releasing one of the tracks just

:53:13.:53:15.

in time for Christmas. # I didn't sell out

:53:16.:53:18.

I didn't give in # Don't believe in borders

:53:19.:53:22.

Austerity is mean # I'll veto a state funeral

:53:23.:53:33.

For Her Majesty the Queen # The protesters are in charge

:53:34.:53:35.

We've occupied the state # I'm a governmental

:53:36.:53:39.

virgin # I didn't sell out

:53:40.:53:41.

I didn't give in We may be revealing too much on this

:53:42.:54:13.

programme. The writer of that song and the creator of Corbyn: The

:54:14.:54:22.

Musical commie Bobby Friedman, --, Bobby Friedman, joins us now. Why

:54:23.:54:26.

are you releasing it as a Christmas single? It is for charity, which is

:54:27.:54:32.

a good thing at Christmas, but also, we saw the other song that was on

:54:33.:54:37.

the show a few weeks ago, and we thought we should give people a

:54:38.:54:45.

choice. This song is entitled You Needed A Hero, You Got Corbyn, which

:54:46.:54:50.

you could take either way. It could be in the sense that you needed a

:54:51.:54:56.

hero and you did in fact get one. It is extraordinary that one politician

:54:57.:55:01.

can generate two Christmas singles. That is the thing about Jeremy

:55:02.:55:05.

Corbyn. I would say that we have as much of a chance of getting to

:55:06.:55:09.

number one for Christmas as Jeremy Corbyn does of getting to number

:55:10.:55:12.

ten, but you never know what can happen with Jeremy Corbyn, because

:55:13.:55:16.

people are fascinated by him even if they don't necessarily want to vote

:55:17.:55:20.

for him. Will you be buying the song? And what do you think of the

:55:21.:55:30.

analysis? It's dreadful. Come on! You should have asked people to

:55:31.:55:34.

guest star in it, and then I would have bought it. Would he have taken

:55:35.:55:39.

part? I think so. Do you think there was more of an appetite in the

:55:40.:55:46.

country for a pro-Jeremy Corbyn Christmas song or an anti-Jeremy

:55:47.:55:53.

Corbyn Christmas song? I think it is a British tradition of satirising

:55:54.:55:56.

our politicians rather than an anti-song, trying to pop the balloon

:55:57.:56:03.

of pompous politicians. Go onto iTunes, where it is available now,

:56:04.:56:08.

and satirise and Pope politicians in the ribs rather than holding them up

:56:09.:56:18.

in a hagiographic way. Is there not enough satire around, Stephen?

:56:19.:56:23.

There's plenty. I thought it was a reasonable song, but not that

:56:24.:56:32.

Christmassy. There is one other song coming out for the Jo Cox

:56:33.:56:36.

Foundation. Don't be put off by the fact that politicians are singing on

:56:37.:56:40.

the song, there are real musicians as well, and it will raise money for

:56:41.:56:45.

good causes. How many politicians on that? Quite a few, they were in the

:56:46.:56:50.

choir. They have been slightly muted in favour of people who can actually

:56:51.:56:57.

sing. I can't sing. Not a note? I think I can, but that's usually

:56:58.:57:01.

after seven pints of lager. I'm sure that can be arranged!

:57:02.:57:05.

There's just time before we go to find out the answer to our quiz.

:57:06.:57:08.

The question was: What is Francois Fillon's nickname?

:57:09.:57:10.

Is it a) Monsieur Thatcher, b) Monsieur Rosbif, c)

:57:11.:57:13.

Monsieur Va-Va Voom, or d) Monsieur Pee-Pee?

:57:14.:57:14.

This has foxed the two of you. Have a guess. It might be too obvious.

:57:15.:57:27.

Miss your -- miss Apparently, he often disappears

:57:28.:57:33.

to the loo when things get Let's look at the more serious angle

:57:34.:57:55.

on the French presidential elections. The Socialists will be

:57:56.:58:00.

nowhere in this - why? What we have seen across Europe, and in the

:58:01.:58:06.

United States, recently is a similar phenomenon, where you have the far

:58:07.:58:13.

right offering cheap and easy solutions, to turn the clock back to

:58:14.:58:17.

the 1970s and saying they can put everything back to how it was, then

:58:18.:58:22.

on the other hand, you've got the sort of radical left saying, we can

:58:23.:58:26.

do everything, we can sort this out. In the middle, you have the

:58:27.:58:29.

centre-left in all of those countries that has been squeezed by

:58:30.:58:33.

those two. Things Critics might say they have failed. The centre-left

:58:34.:58:42.

has failed to inspire people in recent years. Briefly, are you a fan

:58:43.:58:49.

of Francois Fillon? I think France needs a shake-up and he is the guy

:58:50.:58:53.

to do it. Think it very much, and thank you to both of you for being

:58:54.:58:55.

our guess. The one o'clock news is starting

:58:56.:58:56.

over on BBC One now. I'll be here at noon tomorrow

:58:57.:59:00.

with all the big political stories MUSIC: Silly Games

:59:01.:59:04.

by Janet Kay Mum, we're supposed to be

:59:05.:59:07.

making our own, like tape. I used to do a joke about waiting

:59:08.:59:11.

for Lenny Henry to die so I could get on TV.

:59:12.:59:13.

LAUGHTER I hate that joke. What is that

:59:14.:59:15.

joke? "There can be only one."

:59:16.:59:19.

Jo Coburn is joined by former cabinet minister Stephen Crabb and former shadow cabinet minister Lisa Nandy with the latest news and debate from Westminster, including an interview with new UKIP leader Paul Nuttall.


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