15/12/2016 Daily Politics


15/12/2016

Andrew Neil is joined by Conservative peer James O'Shaughnessy to discuss the future of school funding. There is also analysis of Theresa May's visit to the EU summit in Brussels.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 15/12/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Hello, and welcome to the Daily Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

Theresa May's meeting with EU leaders as the BBC learns that

:00:40.:00:42.

Britain's ambassador to Brussels thinks a trade deal could take

:00:43.:00:46.

as long as a decade, instead of the two years ministers

:00:47.:00:48.

As we come on air MPs are debating the Government's plans to find extra

:00:49.:00:56.

funding for social care, paid for by an increase

:00:57.:00:58.

How far will it go to solving this thorny political problem that

:00:59.:01:04.

Jeremy Corbyn's angered some in the Labour Party

:01:05.:01:09.

with his decision to hire a former Sinn Fein member to

:01:10.:01:11.

We've been speaking to his critics and we'll be asking if they're

:01:12.:01:15.

And they may not be entirely in tune but are these Labour MPs right

:01:16.:01:29.

to use a Christmas cover version to target some of Britain's

:01:30.:01:33.

All that in the next hour, and with me for the whole

:01:34.:01:47.

of the programme today is the Conservative peer

:01:48.:01:49.

He used to work in Number 10, where he co-authored the party's

:01:50.:01:53.

Not the last one, actually, the 2010? Time flies when you are

:01:54.:02:03.

writing manifestos! He's now at the Legatum Institute

:02:04.:02:11.

think tank and is also a fellow at the the Jubilee Centre

:02:12.:02:14.

for Character and Virtues. And as character and virtue

:02:15.:02:16.

are in short supply on this show, Theresa May is in Brussels this

:02:17.:02:19.

morning for a summit with her fellow EU leaders,

:02:20.:02:24.

but she'll be excluded by the other 27 this evening when they hold

:02:25.:02:27.

a working dinner to discuss Brexit. Number 10 says it's relaxed

:02:28.:02:31.

about not being invited, You would not want to show you were

:02:32.:02:45.

upset. Meanwhile, back at home,

:02:46.:02:48.

the BBC has learned that Britain's ambassador to the EU,

:02:49.:02:50.

he's called Ivan Rogers, has warned the Government that

:02:51.:02:52.

a post-Brexit UK-EU trade deal might take 10 years to finalise,

:02:53.:02:55.

and still fail. Number 10 says it's still confident

:02:56.:02:57.

a deal can be reached more quickly, and says he was representing

:02:58.:03:00.

the views of other EU members. Theresa May has spoken briefly

:03:01.:03:02.

to the cameras outside I welcome the fact that the other

:03:03.:03:05.

leaders will be meeting to discuss Brexit tonight,

:03:06.:03:12.

as we are going to invoke Article 50, trigger negotiations

:03:13.:03:16.

by the end of March next year. It's right that the other leaders

:03:17.:03:19.

prepare for those negotiations, We want that to be a smooth

:03:20.:03:21.

and orderly process as possible. It's in the interest

:03:22.:03:27.

of the rest of Europe as well. Theresa May in Brussels. Does it

:03:28.:03:39.

matter what the Brussels Ambassador thinks about how long it will take

:03:40.:03:44.

to do a trade deal, he does not know? None of us know. The truth is

:03:45.:03:48.

this is stepping into the unknown, but we step in in a highly unusual

:03:49.:03:53.

way, looking for a free trade deal. Most free-trade deals start with two

:03:54.:03:57.

countries with barriers between them, uniquely possibly in history

:03:58.:04:02.

we start with complete free-trade, no barriers, so we can only do harm,

:04:03.:04:07.

if you like, by putting up barriers, which makes a very different dynamic

:04:08.:04:11.

and one of the reasons the Government is confident it can be

:04:12.:04:15.

completed much more quickly. Is it clear even when Article 50 is

:04:16.:04:19.

triggered that we get to talk traded that two-year period, or is it going

:04:20.:04:23.

to be all about withdrawal? I think we will get to talk trade. We know

:04:24.:04:26.

that we cannot have that talks about having the talks before

:04:27.:04:45.

we press the button on Article 50 and we wait for the Supreme Court

:04:46.:04:47.

judgment on that, but we will be able to start talks not just with

:04:48.:04:50.

the EU but with other countries, which is critical, we have do

:04:51.:04:52.

line-up those other free-trade deals while we negotiate. What they say at

:04:53.:04:55.

the vivid comedy EU politicians, as with ours, it's all posturing to

:04:56.:04:57.

some extent until the bargaining begins, but if the European

:04:58.:04:59.

politicians are seen to be dragging their feet on agreeing some kind of

:05:00.:05:02.

decent access to the single market, are they going to face huge pressure

:05:03.:05:06.

from their manufacturers and businesses? They run a huge surplus

:05:07.:05:12.

with us in good? Yes, at the Legato Institute we have set up a special

:05:13.:05:16.

Trade Commission and brought some of the best trade negotiators from

:05:17.:05:19.

around the world, and they think that we can do a free-trade

:05:20.:05:23.

agreement quickly and, critically, once the politics goes out of it and

:05:24.:05:27.

you are locked into negotiation, it becomes about business, about the

:05:28.:05:31.

bottom line, it quickly becomes clear once you start modelling any

:05:32.:05:36.

barriers all other trade impediments that you cause harm, and whether it

:05:37.:05:45.

is the Italian debt crisis or German car manufacturers, they are not

:05:46.:05:48.

going to want to take a hit just for the sake of political posture. David

:05:49.:05:50.

Davies yesterday, giving evidence to the Brexit Select Committee, Brexit

:05:51.:05:54.

Secretary of State, he made it clear that when it comes to border

:05:55.:05:59.

controls it would be a matter for Britain, not a matter for

:06:00.:06:02.

negotiation. Does it not follow from that, then, that we are talking

:06:03.:06:06.

about a free-trade agreement rather than access, rather than a single

:06:07.:06:12.

market membership? You cannot say that on board a market controls if

:06:13.:06:16.

you want to stay a member of the single market. I think you are

:06:17.:06:22.

right, we are governed into the unknown, I suspect the integrity of

:06:23.:06:26.

the EU and what Britain wants to get out, particularly around the

:06:27.:06:30.

restriction of freedom of movement, is a clean break but a free-trade

:06:31.:06:34.

agreement with the potential for transitional arrangement around

:06:35.:06:39.

specific industries if it proves to be complex. At the Legatum

:06:40.:06:43.

Institute, do you think we can begin with Canada or even Donald Trump's

:06:44.:06:48.

America or Australia, can we begin to outline, I know we cannot sign

:06:49.:06:52.

free-trade deals until it is all done and dusted, but can we begin

:06:53.:07:05.

the conversation is? Once Article 50 is triggered, we can start

:07:06.:07:07.

undertaking the process. Clearly we are bound by European obligations

:07:08.:07:09.

until the Article 50 process has started. Interesting.

:07:10.:07:10.

Social care is an issue that's been rising up the agenda

:07:11.:07:12.

at Westminster recently, as it's become clearer

:07:13.:07:14.

that there is a growing crisis in how local authorities pay

:07:15.:07:17.

for care of the elderly and the disabled as the demands

:07:18.:07:19.

Jeremy Corbyn focused on the issue at Prime Minister's Questions

:07:20.:07:24.

yesterday, and we brought you news that the Government was set to allow

:07:25.:07:27.

councils to raise extra taxes to bring forward planned investment

:07:28.:07:29.

In the last hour, the Communities Secretary Sajid Javid has been

:07:30.:07:37.

Last year, we agreed to the request by many leaders in local Government

:07:38.:07:49.

to introduce a social care Council tax precept of 2% a year, guaranteed

:07:50.:07:56.

to be spent on adult social care. The precept puts money raising

:07:57.:08:00.

powers into the hands of local leaders who best understand the

:08:01.:08:02.

needs of their community and are best placed to respond. In

:08:03.:08:06.

recognition of the immediate challenges that are facing the care

:08:07.:08:11.

market, we will now allow local councils to raise this funding

:08:12.:08:16.

sooner if they wish. Councils will be granted the flexibility to raise

:08:17.:08:20.

the precept by up to 3% next year, and the year after. This will

:08:21.:08:28.

provide a further ?208 million to spend on adult social care in

:08:29.:08:38.

2017-18 and ?444 million in 2018. These measures, together with the

:08:39.:08:42.

changes we have made to the new homes bonus, will make almost ?900

:08:43.:08:48.

million of additional funding for adult social care available over the

:08:49.:08:53.

next two years. Sajid Javid making an announcement

:08:54.:08:55.

that had already been pretty well trailed.

:08:56.:08:57.

We asked to speak to a minister about this,

:08:58.:09:00.

Luckily we're joined by our assistant political

:09:01.:09:09.

He is not allowed to turn us down, he is paid for this sort of thing!

:09:10.:09:20.

He's in the central lobby of the Houses of Parliament.

:09:21.:09:24.

Did we learn anything new? It was pretty much as trailed?

:09:25.:09:30.

I think what we got was a lot of spin about how ?900 million more

:09:31.:09:34.

money is being given to local authorities to deal with social

:09:35.:09:37.

care, but when you strip it down it does not look like that. The vast

:09:38.:09:42.

chunk of that money is, as we reported yesterday, allowing local

:09:43.:09:45.

authorities to bring forward some of the money they have set aside for

:09:46.:09:49.

social care, so it is not new money, it is just frontloading a bit of

:09:50.:10:03.

money. There is a new pot, the social care grant, ?240 million, but

:10:04.:10:07.

low and behold it is not all it seems because this is money local

:10:08.:10:09.

authorities already get for housing, for the new homes bonus. There have

:10:10.:10:12.

been savings in that soap Sajid Javid has taken the savings from

:10:13.:10:14.

local councils and given them back to local councils and said, go and

:10:15.:10:17.

spend it on social care. When you put that together you can say to the

:10:18.:10:21.

Commons, magic, ?900 million more for social care! In the real world,

:10:22.:10:25.

the local authorities dealing with huge pressures, it will not make

:10:26.:10:29.

much difference to them, certainly when you hear the sort of money they

:10:30.:10:33.

believe is needed, they are talking of a shortfall this year alone of ?1

:10:34.:10:39.

billion, 1 million elderly and disabled people doing without care.

:10:40.:10:43.

The scale of the difficulties will not be addressed by simply

:10:44.:10:47.

repackaging existing local authority funding.

:10:48.:10:50.

As I listen to you I am getting flashbacks to the days of Gordon

:10:51.:10:54.

Brown and what he used to do with statistics. It sounds like a

:10:55.:10:57.

legitimate line of criticism here will be that at best this is a

:10:58.:11:01.

sticking plaster and probably an inadequate sticking plaster, and the

:11:02.:11:05.

fundamental issue of the cost, growing cost of social care has not

:11:06.:11:08.

been addressed? I think this

:11:09.:11:22.

is the real issue, Andrew, because everyone knows social care has been

:11:23.:11:26.

the looming iceberg for successive governments, and successive

:11:27.:11:27.

governments have set up Royal Commission is, we have had white

:11:28.:11:30.

papers, danced around the houses and done nothing. Theresa May yesterday

:11:31.:11:32.

said, I am going to be different, I am not going to duck that, so we are

:11:33.:11:35.

looking for a sign that she will grasp the issue and I have to say

:11:36.:11:39.

today we did not get that, all we got from Sajid Javid was a promise

:11:40.:11:43.

of a paper to look at integrating health and social. Everyone knows

:11:44.:11:48.

that has to be done. We also got a promise of a review of their

:11:49.:11:53.

funding. More reviews, more papers, I suspect people in the care sector

:11:54.:11:56.

think we really don't need another with you, what we need is money and

:11:57.:11:59.

action. Norman, thanks for that, good to

:12:00.:12:01.

talk to you on that subject again. funding for schools isn't a story

:12:02.:12:05.

that gets a lot of public attention. But yesterday saw the biggest

:12:06.:12:10.

shake-up in how the budgets of individual schools are set

:12:11.:12:12.

for decades, and there Here's Mark Lobel

:12:13.:12:14.

with all the details. The Department for Education

:12:15.:12:18.

is calling time on uneven funding in England's schools,

:12:19.:12:20.

and that's because a couple of years ago central government consolidated

:12:21.:12:26.

different levels of local authority spending on schools and grants

:12:27.:12:32.

for ethnic minorities All that's left different schools

:12:33.:12:34.

getting different amounts of money. To address the problem,

:12:35.:12:38.

the Education Secretary said yesterday the budgets of around half

:12:39.:12:41.

of England's primary and secondary Our proposed formula will result

:12:42.:12:43.

in more than 10,000 schools now gaining funding and more than 3000

:12:44.:12:52.

of them receiving an And, of course, those that

:12:53.:12:55.

are due to see gains Now, pay attention at

:12:56.:13:02.

the back as we explain Right now, English local authorities

:13:03.:13:06.

get on average ?4600 per pupil. Tower Hamlets, Hackney and Newham

:13:07.:13:13.

all get more than ?6,000 per pupil and Nottingham,

:13:14.:13:17.

Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool At the other end of the scale,

:13:18.:13:22.

Wokingham, Poole and West Sussex Lincolnshire, Derbyshire

:13:23.:13:29.

and Barnsley are on less And, to underline the disparity,

:13:30.:13:33.

let's look at one example in Even though it gets just

:13:34.:13:39.

above the average, it has similar levels of deprivation

:13:40.:13:45.

to Tower Hamlets in London but the local authority there spends

:13:46.:13:49.

over ?2000 more per pupil. Every school here,

:13:50.:13:52.

from Tower Hamlets to Liverpool, will now lose money,

:13:53.:13:58.

and every school here, from Natalie Perera, now

:13:59.:14:01.

at the Education Policy Institute, was a civil servant

:14:02.:14:09.

at the Department for Education, where she worked on the funding

:14:10.:14:13.

formula five years ago. Back then, the coalition government

:14:14.:14:15.

postponed what they felt to be a politically contentious issue

:14:16.:14:18.

which has now come The losses are definitely

:14:19.:14:20.

the metropolitan areas, The gainers are a bit more

:14:21.:14:27.

diverse, so some rural, Is more money going into

:14:28.:14:35.

deprived areas and, if so, where is that money coming from,

:14:36.:14:41.

and how is it being allocated? There's more money going

:14:42.:14:45.

into the deprived pot, and that's coming from the general

:14:46.:14:48.

pot for all pupils and, when we look at how that pot

:14:49.:14:51.

is being spent, it looks like, compared to now, there's a bit more

:14:52.:14:58.

money going into the least deprived neighbourhoods and a bit less money

:14:59.:15:02.

going into the more deprived Does that fit in with

:15:03.:15:05.

the rhetoric of helping Yeah, it seems like that's what's

:15:06.:15:11.

driving or what might be The other surprises were that this

:15:12.:15:15.

takes place over just two years, so quickly, and that the lump sum

:15:16.:15:20.

that each school receives is being cut up to ?65,000,

:15:21.:15:23.

which is particularly bad news There will be a 14-week consultation

:15:24.:15:27.

on the proposals and a final Then councils will no longer

:15:28.:15:35.

distribute money to schools by 2019, which means that many of the 20,000

:15:36.:15:41.

primary and secondary schools in England,

:15:42.:15:44.

as a result of this settlement, inflationary pressures

:15:45.:15:47.

and extra pension costs, will have to seriously consider

:15:48.:15:50.

cutting staff, increasing class sizes and narrowing

:15:51.:15:52.

their curriculum. And we're joined now

:15:53.:15:58.

by the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb. Welcome back. I know you are going

:15:59.:16:10.

to argue this new formula is fair. I will come to that. But is it

:16:11.:16:15.

possible to be fair at all when the whole schools system in England,

:16:16.:16:18.

because that is what we are talking about, for the rest of the country

:16:19.:16:22.

it is a devolved matter, the English schools system faces a massive real

:16:23.:16:30.

terms cut of ?3 billion. That can't be fair. We have protected because

:16:31.:16:36.

schools budget in real terms. We are spending a record amount, ?40

:16:37.:16:40.

billion this year. We have to marshal our resources. We have a

:16:41.:16:45.

record historic budget deficit to tackle and we've managed to protect

:16:46.:16:49.

schools from contributing to that reduction in the deficit over the

:16:50.:16:53.

last six years, but we have to make sure that schools are running as

:16:54.:16:58.

efficiently as possible, that they marshal their staff and resources,

:16:59.:17:02.

and we are helping them do that. But the National Audit Office, an

:17:03.:17:07.

independent and reliable authority, points out that school budgets are

:17:08.:17:11.

being squeezed by pay rises, the national living wage, higher

:17:12.:17:16.

employer contributions to national insurance and pensions, the

:17:17.:17:18.

apprenticeship levy, and you add all of that up and it faces having to

:17:19.:17:25.

make savings of ?3 billion before the end of the decade. It's

:17:26.:17:31.

equivalent to 8% real percent cut in funding. It's the worst cut since

:17:32.:17:37.

your party was last in power. Yes, and we are helping schools to

:17:38.:17:42.

deliver services more efficiently. It emphasises why having a bearer

:17:43.:17:45.

national funding formula was so important, because we are addressing

:17:46.:17:50.

these historic unfairness is in areas like West Sussex, the area

:17:51.:17:54.

that I represent. Historically, it has been underfunded over the years.

:17:55.:17:59.

We are addressing that across the country and fairly swiftly. Many

:18:00.:18:04.

people listening will say, if that's your definition of protecting

:18:05.:18:07.

schools, you wonder what it would be like if you weren't protecting them.

:18:08.:18:13.

You seem the rankings, the international rankings done by the

:18:14.:18:16.

OECD, probably the most authoritative global standard. We

:18:17.:18:22.

are ranked 27th in that. By week, I mean the UK, 27th in the world, the

:18:23.:18:28.

lowest we have ever been. -- why we. This isn't a time to be taking 3

:18:29.:18:35.

billion hand-out. That was 15-year-olds, tested November last

:18:36.:18:38.

year. We have radically improved the primary school system. We had the

:18:39.:18:47.

first Sats taken this May under this curriculum. Next year, I am

:18:48.:18:51.

confident we will see rises in our status. But those figures have not

:18:52.:18:55.

benefited from those reforms. You have been in power for six years. It

:18:56.:19:01.

takes a number of years to implement reforms. You have to give schools

:19:02.:19:06.

and amount of time to prepare for the new GCSEs. They started to be

:19:07.:19:10.

taught September 2015, so the children who took this test took it

:19:11.:19:15.

in November 2015 and didn't benefit from that. In time, I am confident

:19:16.:19:22.

we will see a rise. Other countries are doing better, too. That's why we

:19:23.:19:26.

have to reform. Over the last six years, because of what we have been

:19:27.:19:31.

doing on improving school behaviour and standards in schools, 1.8

:19:32.:19:36.

million more children are today in good or outstanding schools is rated

:19:37.:19:40.

by Ofsted compared to 2010. We are on that success. We shall see,

:19:41.:19:46.

because the Pisa rankings are quite hard to fiddle or change. 22nd in

:19:47.:19:51.

Reading, having fallen out of the top 20 in 2006. That seems a long

:19:52.:19:59.

way to go. There is another point in pic, which is that you have talked

:20:00.:20:04.

about the UK figures. If you look at the performance of England in that

:20:05.:20:07.

period, it has been reasonably stable. What is really interesting

:20:08.:20:11.

and has not had enough coverage is that Wales and Scotland have been

:20:12.:20:15.

deteriorating in standard, and they haven't been doing the kind of

:20:16.:20:19.

school reforms that the Conservative and coalition government have. Those

:20:20.:20:23.

will take time to pay off, but the truth is that you can't stand still

:20:24.:20:27.

in this game. If you don't pay attention, and it isn't all about

:20:28.:20:31.

money, it's about reform, those standards will go backwards. But on

:20:32.:20:37.

the Pisa rankings, you can desegregate for the former

:20:38.:20:39.

cremations and, if you do that, England still doesn't look great.

:20:40.:20:46.

Edge the four nations. If you read the Scottish press, there is a lot

:20:47.:20:49.

of concern about what is happening in Scottish schools and the

:20:50.:20:53.

government up there is under pressure but, even when England is

:20:54.:20:56.

taken on its own, it isn't great. Let's look at some of the winners

:20:57.:21:01.

and losers in this funding formula. Areas getting more money,

:21:02.:21:05.

Buckinghamshire, West Sussex, Bath. Areas getting less, wooden, Bolton,

:21:06.:21:11.

in London. In other words, Tory areas get more, non-Tory areas get

:21:12.:21:17.

less. -- Wigan, Bolton, inner London. London is still 30% better

:21:18.:21:22.

funded than any other part of England. This formula is fair. It

:21:23.:21:29.

puts a great weight on deprivation, an low prior attainment in terms of

:21:30.:21:35.

pupils. Don't forget, we are addressing atrophied funding system

:21:36.:21:38.

where the data is out of date. It is ten years old and London in that

:21:39.:21:43.

period has improved its wealth. The level of free school meals in London

:21:44.:21:47.

has declined significantly. It is still the best funded part of our

:21:48.:21:53.

system. You can pick some areas which are non-Tory areas and they

:21:54.:21:57.

will do a bit better, but overwhelmingly there will be less

:21:58.:21:59.

funding for schools in Manchester, Liverpool, Wigan, Warrington. There

:22:00.:22:06.

will be increases in Blackpool and Bolton, I understand that. Secondary

:22:07.:22:11.

places in Buckinghamshire, West Sussex, Bath, Cambridgeshire, they

:22:12.:22:14.

will all get an increase. The organisation representing schools in

:22:15.:22:19.

north-east England, where you only have three MPs, say the new formula

:22:20.:22:25.

is designed, quote, to divert vital resources from schools in

:22:26.:22:28.

disadvantaged areas to affluent boroughs. As I said, London is still

:22:29.:22:33.

the highest funded area in the country. We were very careful with

:22:34.:22:37.

how we construct of the formula, as set out in the film. We took money

:22:38.:22:43.

from the basic unit of funding, about three quarters of the total

:22:44.:22:47.

per-pupil funding. We put a lot into deprivation, which is the highest

:22:48.:22:51.

significant factor after the basic unit, then lower prior attainment,

:22:52.:22:56.

then sparsity and rural area issues. The biggest single factor is

:22:57.:22:59.

deprivation. We believe that, if you want to get social mobility and help

:23:00.:23:04.

children from poorer families, you need to put money into schools. It's

:23:05.:23:08.

just so happens that some of those areas are less deprived than they

:23:09.:23:13.

were ten years ago. The north-east of England, although it has been

:23:14.:23:17.

doing well recently, nevertheless has lots of areas of deprivation.

:23:18.:23:22.

Mike Parker, director of schools in the north-east, we remain deeply

:23:23.:23:25.

concerned that the is doggedly pursuing grounds to pursue an area

:23:26.:23:30.

cost adjustment that will divert vital resources from schools in

:23:31.:23:33.

disadvantaged areas to affluent boroughs. I come back to my original

:23:34.:23:38.

point. In real terms, you are expecting schools to make a

:23:39.:23:41.

substantial cut and to this at the same time. It seems that a lot of

:23:42.:23:48.

schools in some of the poorest areas are going to be in trouble. The area

:23:49.:23:53.

cost adjustment means that you fund schools and reflect an area of

:23:54.:23:56.

funding to reflect higher salaries that they have to face. The other

:23:57.:23:59.

areas that have gained have historically been underfunded and

:24:00.:24:06.

are facing real problems as a consequence. What this has done,

:24:07.:24:10.

this national funding formula, it has taken a series of principles

:24:11.:24:13.

that we consulted on for several months, and they won widespread

:24:14.:24:20.

support from the people we approached, because it is right to

:24:21.:24:23.

reflect the funding of schools based on deprivation, based on prior

:24:24.:24:27.

learning, based on the number of children speaking English as a

:24:28.:24:29.

second language. These are key factors. No other government has

:24:30.:24:35.

grasped the nettle on this issue. It is very controversial. We decided we

:24:36.:24:39.

would do it, notwithstanding the other pressures on school funding.

:24:40.:24:45.

But you are doing this at a time when real budgets have been cut in

:24:46.:24:50.

real terms, and already 60% of secondary schools in England are

:24:51.:24:55.

running a deficit. Yes, and we have to... And so is the government. We

:24:56.:24:58.

have to tackle this historic budget deficit. If we don't tackle it, we

:24:59.:25:05.

won't have a strong economy. We have the fastest growing economy as a

:25:06.:25:10.

consequence in the G7 and a million more businesses since 2010,

:25:11.:25:15.

unemployment below 5%, and this is important for the long-term. 60% of

:25:16.:25:20.

academy is now spent more than their income. That is why the new formula

:25:21.:25:27.

is important. But you are taking money away from schools. They will

:25:28.:25:30.

have to make efficiencies and we are helping schools to determine the

:25:31.:25:33.

best way of marshalling their staff and procuring. We are working on a

:25:34.:25:38.

national buying scheme for things like electricity and IT. They have

:25:39.:25:43.

to do more with less. We have seen that across Whitehall. So far, we

:25:44.:25:47.

have protected schools from those savings. You say that, but people

:25:48.:25:52.

will still look at the National Audit Office and wonder if that is

:25:53.:25:56.

really true. We will see in the years ahead if that is the case.

:25:57.:26:00.

James, grammar schools, another area of education policy, and there was a

:26:01.:26:08.

consultation, and you, or your organisation, has contributed. What

:26:09.:26:13.

was your contribution? Before that, one point on the funding issue. I

:26:14.:26:18.

set up what is called a multi-academy trust, a group of

:26:19.:26:22.

schools. We have three schools, one of which is in an inner London

:26:23.:26:27.

borough, and one of which is in Woking, the lowest funded borough.

:26:28.:26:29.

The discrepancies in funding between those schools is significant. But

:26:30.:26:35.

the challenges that they face are not that different. When you see it

:26:36.:26:38.

and what you can do in each school as a consequence, it brings it home.

:26:39.:26:43.

There is a historic unfairness and the funding environment is tough.

:26:44.:26:47.

When you see it up close, that unfairness is quite hard to justify

:26:48.:26:51.

the parents, why you are doing one thing in one of your schools and not

:26:52.:26:56.

in the other. OK, what about grammar schools? This is probably, if money

:26:57.:27:04.

is controversial, academic selection is pretty controversial, too. Unless

:27:05.:27:09.

you can afford to go privately... The challenge that the green paper

:27:10.:27:13.

sets out was, is there a way in which selection could be included in

:27:14.:27:17.

the system in a way which benefits those who need it most? The way I

:27:18.:27:23.

describe it is, is it a tide that can lift all boats? My view is that,

:27:24.:27:27.

if you set up selective schools in some of the areas which have been

:27:28.:27:32.

most stubbornly resistant to interventions, they can act as a

:27:33.:27:34.

catalyst by bringing together academic staff, affluent shall --...

:27:35.:27:43.

It sounds like a lot of ifs. You would think the bigger danger is

:27:44.:27:46.

that, for those that make the grammar school in the inner-city,

:27:47.:27:50.

they would probably go pretty well, but the others would be left behind.

:27:51.:27:56.

Which is why you have to decide it carefully. I've suggested a pilot

:27:57.:27:59.

based on the free school model, where it's controlled by central

:28:00.:28:03.

government. Knowsley council, one of the lowest performing boroughs, had

:28:04.:28:09.

its own education commission which suggested creating a grammar school

:28:10.:28:13.

to do that. There is a case for doing it in some of these low

:28:14.:28:16.

prosperity or what the government is calling social mobility areas. ...

:28:17.:28:21.

Are you going to leave it to local areas to determine whether they have

:28:22.:28:26.

grammar schools or are you going to do as James suggests, that central

:28:27.:28:31.

government will identify where you believe grammar schools could be

:28:32.:28:36.

useful? It will be demand led, so it will come from the grassroots. They

:28:37.:28:39.

will have to demonstrate that there is support for a grammar school. 99%

:28:40.:28:45.

of existing grammar schools are good or outstanding, and what we are

:28:46.:28:49.

determined to do is to create more good school places. 1.8 million more

:28:50.:28:53.

children in good or outstanding schools in the last four years, but

:28:54.:28:57.

still 1.25 million in schools that are not good enough. You have had a

:28:58.:29:03.

consultation process. As that come to an end? It closed on Monday. ...

:29:04.:29:12.

So when will the policy emerged? We will examine all the thousands of

:29:13.:29:15.

responses and we will say something more in early spring in response to

:29:16.:29:23.

that. But it is important to give parents more choice and to spread

:29:24.:29:26.

the expertise. There are many areas of the country where frankly very

:29:27.:29:30.

able children are not getting quality of education that they need.

:29:31.:29:37.

This is what this is about. One does the deal go through Parliament? We

:29:38.:29:41.

will talk about that in the New Year. We will look at the responses

:29:42.:29:47.

first and continue to talk to colleagues about their ideas about

:29:48.:29:52.

how we can ensure that more children from deprived backgrounds, from

:29:53.:29:56.

poorer income families get access to these grammar schools. What we know

:29:57.:30:00.

is that, when children to attend the schools from the raw families, they

:30:01.:30:04.

make more progress than their affluent peers. -- from poorer

:30:05.:30:11.

families. We did ask Angela Rayner from Labour's shadow education bench

:30:12.:30:19.

to join us but she has been taken unwell.

:30:20.:30:21.

There's some anger in sections of the Labour Party this morning

:30:22.:30:24.

after it emerged that Jeremy Corbyn has appointed the former head

:30:25.:30:26.

of Sinn Fein's London office to work for him.

:30:27.:30:29.

Jayne Fisher - on the left of this picture in Westminster last year

:30:30.:30:32.

alongside Martin McGuiness, Jeremy Corbyn and Gerry Adams -

:30:33.:30:42.

is, according to the Guido Fawkes website, due to start

:30:43.:30:44.

working in the Labour leader's office in January.

:30:45.:30:46.

The appointment has caused anger in some parts of the party,

:30:47.:30:49.

and we've been in touch with some Labour MPs this morning.

:30:50.:30:51.

One told us that it was "completely bonkers" and was "an early Christmas

:30:52.:30:55.

Another Labour MP said that the leadership "are completely

:30:56.:30:59.

divorcing themselves from the rest of the world".

:31:00.:31:02.

A third told us that it was "another example of shooting

:31:03.:31:05.

The Daily Politics also spoke to the former First Minister

:31:06.:31:14.

of Northern Ireland, Lord Trimble, who told us...

:31:15.:31:20.

"We know from our own intelligence services that Sinn Fein is not

:31:21.:31:23.

a normal political party and operates under

:31:24.:31:25.

The IRA remains a proscribed organisation.

:31:26.:31:30.

It is very foolish of Mr Corbyn to put himself in to a relationship

:31:31.:31:33.

We also spoke to former Northern Ireland Secretary Peter Hain,

:31:34.:31:39.

"She is a very experienced parliamentary researcher and carries

:31:40.:31:44.

a lot of credibility on a cross-party basis.

:31:45.:31:48.

She has obviously been hired for her expertise

:31:49.:31:49.

rather than as a former Sinn Fein employee."

:31:50.:31:57.

We asked the Labour Party for a comment but a spokesman told

:31:58.:32:00.

us, "We don't comment on staffing matters."

:32:01.:32:10.

Joining me now is the associate editor of the Daily Mirror,

:32:11.:32:12.

Kevin Maguire, and Alex Wickham of the Guido Fawkes website which,

:32:13.:32:15.

as I said, has been covering the story.

:32:16.:32:17.

Kevin, when you look at the talent available to someone like Jeremy

:32:18.:32:22.

Corbyn, why would you pick somebody from a Sinn Fein background? She has

:32:23.:32:27.

been a Labour Party member for 30 or 40 years and is very respected and

:32:28.:32:31.

talented. One of the criticisms of his office is it has not been run

:32:32.:32:36.

well. She will bring in a huge degree of professionalism. It is

:32:37.:32:41.

interesting that people in Labour who are complaining will not be

:32:42.:32:45.

named because I suspect if you spoke to Colin McGinn or Vernon Coaker,

:32:46.:32:50.

two MPs who are hostile to Jeremy Corbyn, but have a big interest in

:32:51.:32:54.

Northern Ireland affairs, they have dealt with her as well, I have dealt

:32:55.:32:57.

with her professionally for years and she is very good. I had a little

:32:58.:33:01.

laugh when I saw the picture of Corbyn with Martin McGuinness and

:33:02.:33:05.

Gerry Adams in Westminster because Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness

:33:06.:33:07.

were on their way from David Cameron, that is when it was taken.

:33:08.:33:11.

There are pictures of Martin McGuinness with the Queen. Jeremy

:33:12.:33:18.

Corbyn, look... He had his picture taken with them when they were not

:33:19.:33:24.

going to see the Queen or David Cameron. You will be on the right

:33:25.:33:29.

side of history in engaging people in Northern Ireland and bringing

:33:30.:33:36.

them in the mainstream of politics. Willie Whitelaw was meeting the IRA,

:33:37.:33:41.

John Major had contacts. Jeremy Corbyn was not trying to start the

:33:42.:33:45.

peace process. Jeremy Corbyn wanted peace. One of the problems with

:33:46.:33:52.

Jeremy Corbyn... He supported getting troops out. So did the daily

:33:53.:33:56.

Mirror, because at the time there was huge public opinion in favour of

:33:57.:33:59.

troops out because it was felt the presence of troops was inflaming the

:34:00.:34:03.

situation and they were becoming targets themselves. It was about

:34:04.:34:10.

reducing violence. We tried to speak to the two Labour MPs you mentioned

:34:11.:34:13.

but could not get a comment from them. This woman has been a member

:34:14.:34:18.

of the Labour Party for a long while. Full marks to Kevin for

:34:19.:34:22.

giving her a spirited defence, but if you look at it the Tories' main

:34:23.:34:25.

attack line against Jeremy Corbyn over the last couple of years has

:34:26.:34:30.

been that he is a friend of terrorists, remember David Cameron

:34:31.:34:34.

saying that famously to some controversy, and Jeremy Corbyn has

:34:35.:34:37.

kind of confirmed the worst fears by hiring a woman he was not just a

:34:38.:34:42.

Labour Party member or former employee of -- employee of Sinn

:34:43.:34:46.

Fein, there are photographs of her with Brendan McFarlane, a convicted

:34:47.:34:51.

terrorist, convicted of the shooting of five civilians, photos of her

:34:52.:34:54.

with other convicted terrorist guy with Hugo Chavez, she is a member of

:34:55.:34:59.

the pro-Castro Cuba Solidarity campaign, the list goes on. A very

:35:00.:35:05.

good attempt at defending her, but it won't really wash with the wider

:35:06.:35:09.

public. Can you imagine knocking on the streets of a constituency that

:35:10.:35:13.

has been a victim of an IRA bombing if you are a Labour candidate or

:35:14.:35:17.

Labour MP and asking for those people's votes? It won't wash. I

:35:18.:35:23.

have been at meetings when Jayne Fisher has been there with the

:35:24.:35:26.

survivors of violence. The families of people who were killed by the

:35:27.:35:30.

IRA. People have moved on, there has been the Good Friday peace

:35:31.:35:33.

agreement. The truth is, Alex, you and some in the Tory party, if

:35:34.:35:38.

Jeremy Corbyn could walk on water and have healing hands, you would

:35:39.:35:42.

accuse him of putting therapy workers out of business. It is just

:35:43.:35:48.

an automatic response. You have got to move on. People have moved on,

:35:49.:35:52.

and she is not part of that violence in any way. It is a terrible smear

:35:53.:35:57.

to somehow suggest in any way that she was. Of course, but... Of course

:35:58.:36:07.

what? Of course she was not involved in violence or supporting it in any

:36:08.:36:11.

way? Of course she was not involved in violence. But did not supported?

:36:12.:36:17.

She is standing alongside a man who was jailed for an attack in which

:36:18.:36:22.

five civilians died. I would challenge Kevin's point about

:36:23.:36:25.

whether people have moved on. The problem the Labour Party has with

:36:26.:36:28.

its patron of debate, whether they feel they have moved on in how they

:36:29.:36:33.

feel about the IRA, Sinn Fein and so on, I have to say as somebody from

:36:34.:36:38.

an Irish Catholic background it is pretty obvious that the IRA and Sinn

:36:39.:36:42.

Fein have not done a lot for the reputation of Irish Catholics in

:36:43.:36:45.

this country who want to integrate and assimilate, and having that

:36:46.:36:49.

associated with the Labour Party, the Labour leader, I don't think

:36:50.:36:53.

people have moved on, they may have moved on in a bubble but in reality

:36:54.:36:57.

they feel strongly about the history of sectarian violence. I can apply

:36:58.:37:02.

for an Irish passport as well, and I might have to Brexit, and played the

:37:03.:37:05.

Catholic part as well, and I find when speaking to people about

:37:06.:37:08.

Northern Ireland they wanted to stay back where it was. They are happy

:37:09.:37:12.

now that in Northern Ireland you have parties working together, not

:37:13.:37:16.

always perfectly and there are huge tensions, none of that should be

:37:17.:37:21.

ignored, but people have moved on, and that is why I don't think... Can

:37:22.:37:25.

you imagine what Paul Nuttall is going to do with this information?

:37:26.:37:30.

He is already eating into Labour heartlands, he is already going on

:37:31.:37:34.

that patriotic is an attack line. Peter Hain, former Northern Ireland

:37:35.:37:42.

Secretary, not a fan of Jeremy Corbyn's, he says he knows Jayne

:37:43.:37:46.

Fisher and this is blown out of proportion. Jeremy Corbyn's team

:37:47.:37:49.

have said she is a lovely person but at the end of the day you can make

:37:50.:37:53.

those arguments but it does not cut through. When you knock on people's

:37:54.:37:58.

doors, I spoke to a Labour MP a few months ago who said that they knock

:37:59.:38:02.

on doors in their constituency, a constituency which was bombed by the

:38:03.:38:06.

IRA, and the thing they hear is that John McDonnell is the Shadow

:38:07.:38:09.

Chancellor and has links to the IRA, how can I vote for you? This feeds

:38:10.:38:14.

into that Tory and Ukip attack line. I can see for your attacks Jayne

:38:15.:38:20.

Fisher is just collateral damage, you have just taken her to battered

:38:21.:38:24.

Jeremy Corbyn, I understand that. But if you express it the Rayudu on

:38:25.:38:29.

doorsteps, yes, people will react badly. -- the way you do. If you

:38:30.:38:34.

tell them the truth and they meet Jayne Fisher, they will not. Don't

:38:35.:38:41.

you think, whether right or wrong, shouldn't Mr Corbyn have some people

:38:42.:38:47.

around him, all leaders need this at some stage, who would protect him

:38:48.:38:54.

from himself? This is a man as a young MP he hosted two convicted IRA

:38:55.:38:59.

terrorist in Parliament, two weeks after the Brighton bombing, two

:39:00.:39:03.

weeks after the IRA tried to destroy the British Government with a bomb,

:39:04.:39:08.

he invited two convicted IRA terrorists into Parliament. This

:39:09.:39:12.

appointment, she may be good, she may be smart, she may have her hands

:39:13.:39:15.

entirely clean of violence and all the rest of it, but this just brings

:39:16.:39:21.

his record back. Wouldn't be wise advice be to say, Jeremy, there were

:39:22.:39:32.

other people about? On the specific, he was trying to pull the IRA away

:39:33.:39:35.

from violence, and in the end it worked. We don't want to overstate

:39:36.:39:39.

his role... But in the early days, when nobody else was doing it, it

:39:40.:39:43.

was good that people like Jeremy Corbyn were reaching out, the Good

:39:44.:39:47.

Friday peace agreement, I was there in 98 in Stormont when it was

:39:48.:39:51.

hailstones, it was a landmark moment. Of course Tony Blair,

:39:52.:39:59.

Jonathan Powell, Bertie Ahern, it was a landmark, but you needed

:40:00.:40:03.

people, you always need in politics and civil society, to reach out and

:40:04.:40:07.

do some of the early work. But you are right, he needs to widen his

:40:08.:40:10.

team in Westminster, it needs to be more professional. She is very, very

:40:11.:40:16.

professional. We are talking about Labour's links to the IRA today,

:40:17.:40:20.

that is not the message Labour want to put out. It is the message you

:40:21.:40:24.

always want to put out. No more times that, we are out of time but I

:40:25.:40:26.

thank both. -- I thank you both. Now to the latest part of our series

:40:27.:40:33.

looking at the issues faced by key Government departments

:40:34.:40:37.

in the run-up to Brexit. We've already covered

:40:38.:40:39.

the Home Office and the Department for the Environment and Rural

:40:40.:40:41.

Affairs. For today's Brexit Tracker,

:40:42.:40:42.

we've turned our attention to the Department for Education,

:40:43.:40:44.

which, since the summer, has also That used to be with the business

:40:45.:40:51.

Department. You have to keep up with these things.

:40:52.:40:51.

Ministers and their civil servants in the Department for Education have

:40:52.:40:55.

to wrestle with many issues as they plan for a post-Brexit

:40:56.:40:58.

world, not least what leaving the EU will do for the number

:40:59.:41:01.

Will an exodus of migrants free up places, and how will that affect

:41:02.:41:08.

Overseas teacher recruitment has increased in recent years,

:41:09.:41:14.

with many in particular coming from Spain.

:41:15.:41:17.

Around 17% of university staff are EU nationals,

:41:18.:41:22.

so education officials will be taking a keen interest in changes

:41:23.:41:25.

Will an exodus of migrants free up places, and how will that affect

:41:26.:41:31.

EU students applying for courses starting next autumn will not see

:41:32.:41:33.

any changes to their loan eligibility or fee status

:41:34.:41:35.

for the full duration of their course, but politicians

:41:36.:41:38.

will need to work out what EU students will need

:41:39.:41:41.

to pay in good time for the subsequent academic year.

:41:42.:41:45.

University research funding has been guaranteed for projects that start

:41:46.:41:47.

before the UK leaves the EU, but the Government will now be able

:41:48.:41:51.

to look again at the long-term future of UK collaboration

:41:52.:41:54.

Will UK universities be able to continue to participate

:41:55.:42:02.

in the Erasmus Plus exchange programme, which allows

:42:03.:42:05.

students to study in Europe for free for up to a year,

:42:06.:42:08.

The Scottish Government has said that EU citizens will,

:42:09.:42:14.

like Scots themselves, continue to receive

:42:15.:42:15.

free university tuition following Brexit, but English,

:42:16.:42:19.

Welsh and Northern Irish students will still have to pay fees.

:42:20.:42:25.

Will the post-Brexit settlement with Scotland look to end

:42:26.:42:27.

These are just some of the issues Education Secretary Justine Greening

:42:28.:42:35.

and her team have on their plates as the Government moves ever closer

:42:36.:42:38.

to triggering Article 50 and firing the starting gun on our exit

:42:39.:42:41.

We're joined now by the former Liberal Democrat schools

:42:42.:42:49.

He's now chair of the Education Policy Institute.

:42:50.:42:53.

And our guest of the day James O'Shaughnessy is still here -

:42:54.:42:56.

he set up an academies trust which runs three primary schools.

:42:57.:43:03.

David Laws, in 2014, 15, six of teachers who gained qualified status

:43:04.:43:11.

in England came from overseas. Is that going to be a problem posed

:43:12.:43:17.

Brexit? It could well be because the approach of the moment that Theresa

:43:18.:43:21.

May seems to want to take is one that will give, we think, priority

:43:22.:43:26.

to try to get net immigration numbers back down. At the moment

:43:27.:43:29.

there are only a restricted number of teaching roles, particularly

:43:30.:43:36.

generally science subjects are given priority in terms of visas, so if

:43:37.:43:40.

the EU is subject to the same constraints then I think we will

:43:41.:43:44.

find it quite difficult to recruit, for example, the many

:43:45.:43:47.

foreign-language teachers the Government is going to need at this

:43:48.:43:57.

-- as it in temps to improve foreign-language take-up. It seems

:43:58.:44:05.

they will have to be liberal with this? I think the message from the

:44:06.:44:13.

Brexit vote if a majority of people want to see an end to free movement

:44:14.:44:16.

where people can come and go without having a job. There are some

:44:17.:44:20.

industries, David talked about one subsector within an industry, where

:44:21.:44:25.

it inevitably one is going to have to rely on immigration in order to

:44:26.:44:28.

pull some of those gaps, particularly in the short run. One

:44:29.:44:33.

of the things that have happened in the last 15 years is instead of

:44:34.:44:37.

importing a lot of doctors into the NHS we have been training our own to

:44:38.:44:40.

try to address that so clearly there are things the Government will have

:44:41.:44:44.

to do here to address that. Of course there will still be inward

:44:45.:44:51.

migration. So the Government will need to qualify more teachers? We

:44:52.:44:55.

will need to do some of that work in our own country but one of the

:44:56.:44:59.

challenges will be what wider impact does our leaving the European Union

:45:00.:45:04.

have on the growth numbers and public spending? We have a situation

:45:05.:45:07.

where with the constraints on teacher pay we are seeing

:45:08.:45:13.

difficulties recruiting into the public sector, including teaching,

:45:14.:45:15.

so the wider impact on public expenditure will impact on our

:45:16.:45:20.

ability to recruit new teachers. Will it lead to more of what Mr

:45:21.:45:27.

Clegg used to get annoyed about, unqualified teachers? I don't think

:45:28.:45:32.

so, there is clearly a policy choice for the Government on whether to

:45:33.:45:37.

extend the access to state schools for unqualified teachers. The

:45:38.:45:39.

evidence shows that even those schools that have the ability to

:45:40.:45:43.

recruit unqualified teachers don't generally like to use that freedom,

:45:44.:45:46.

they generally want people with suitable qualifications.

:45:47.:45:50.

Let's look at universities now. We hear a lot about continued access

:45:51.:46:00.

for EU students coming to this country. But EU academics make up

:46:01.:46:04.

17% of university training and teaching research posts. Will we

:46:05.:46:13.

remain a destination? How universities are regarded, a lot of

:46:14.:46:18.

them, as world-class. A lot of European universities are not. Can

:46:19.:46:24.

we continue to be a beacon for them? Absolutely, into microwaves, because

:46:25.:46:27.

there are definitely going to be both students and staff coming to

:46:28.:46:31.

universities the argument round immigration is not about the high

:46:32.:46:36.

skilled end. Politically, it is an easy argument to win. The other

:46:37.:46:42.

thing is about research. There is concern in British universities at

:46:43.:46:48.

your feet -- European research programme called Horizon 2020 and

:46:49.:46:53.

Britain's role post-Brexit. Interesting to note that both Israel

:46:54.:46:57.

and Tunisia, definitely not members of the EU, are involved in that

:46:58.:47:02.

programme, so there is no reason to think that Britain couldn't continue

:47:03.:47:06.

to play a central role in that very important strand of European

:47:07.:47:12.

research work. I think he is right on the last point, that we could

:47:13.:47:16.

strike deals to allow access to particular programmes. The big issue

:47:17.:47:20.

for education is the university sector and the extent to which

:47:21.:47:24.

Theresa May wants to use control of student numbers to get a quick win

:47:25.:47:28.

on immigration and reduce net immigration quickly. If she does

:47:29.:47:32.

that, both for EU and presumably non-EU students, the UK university

:47:33.:47:39.

's dependence on both students and the huge amount of money that they

:47:40.:47:43.

bring in could actually be exposed and could do quite a lot of damage

:47:44.:47:47.

to our higher education sector. So I think there is a lot of legitimate

:47:48.:47:52.

worry about this. You are going to see strange impact on student

:47:53.:47:56.

numbers as people try to access the UK before Brexit and then are

:47:57.:47:59.

uncertain about the consequences of Brexit. It's the big issue in

:48:00.:48:05.

education. The government, including the coalition government up to 2015,

:48:06.:48:09.

said it had helped to clean up the higher education sector in terms of

:48:10.:48:14.

getting rid of colleges and students coming here were now by and large

:48:15.:48:19.

going to what were regarded as proper institutions. -- getting rid

:48:20.:48:23.

of bogus colleges. Having done that, would it not make sense to take

:48:24.:48:27.

student numbers out of the immigration figures? At the time,

:48:28.:48:32.

something like 900 bogus colleges were closed. So obviously a lot of

:48:33.:48:38.

progress has been made on that. First, I think the government has

:48:39.:48:41.

been quite adamant it isn't going to take them out of the figures. There

:48:42.:48:46.

were discussions yesterday about it. The other thing of course is that,

:48:47.:48:51.

in theory, students are sort of a replenishing body. The net inflow

:48:52.:48:55.

and outflow should net off against each other every three years, so

:48:56.:48:59.

what is actually causing the increase in figures is people who

:49:00.:49:03.

stay on, and some of them stay on for jobs and studies. They can do

:49:04.:49:12.

that at the moment. EU students can. Non-ease you students cannot. --

:49:13.:49:20.

non-EU. To be frank, we have had a pretty clear signal that we need to

:49:21.:49:23.

do something about lowering immigration, so saying that one way

:49:24.:49:26.

we are going to do that is by not counting one type of immigration

:49:27.:49:31.

wouldn't wash very well. It isn't to say that we shouldn't do something

:49:32.:49:35.

about it, but just taking them out of the figures feels like a con. Do

:49:36.:49:40.

you feel that people concerned about immigration would regard a Chinese

:49:41.:49:45.

student coming to study at Imperial as an immigrant? I don't think that

:49:46.:49:52.

people are worried about it. They were worried about bogus colleges,

:49:53.:49:58.

of course. That could have been a way of illegal immigration. Yes. I

:49:59.:50:02.

don't think they are worried about genuine students coming in. One

:50:03.:50:06.

wants to see the numbers to understand those flows, but what is

:50:07.:50:09.

important is how the numbers are presented but what the government is

:50:10.:50:14.

targeting. To me, it makes no sense to have a target that focuses on a

:50:15.:50:18.

lot of students who are coming in to the benefit of our education system

:50:19.:50:22.

and economy, and I think what Theresa May should be trying to do

:50:23.:50:27.

is not to massage or distort the numbers, but looking again at this

:50:28.:50:31.

net immigration target and make sure she is targeting things that make

:50:32.:50:34.

sense for our economy and not have a target that causes her to pursue

:50:35.:50:43.

policies... Briefly, Erasmus, which has benefited many British and

:50:44.:50:49.

European students, I think 15,000 British students participated last

:50:50.:50:55.

year. Can we stay in that? Norway, Macedonia and Turkey are all part of

:50:56.:51:00.

that programme. So you think the answer is yes. We can do if we

:51:01.:51:04.

strike the right deal and have a proper adult negotiation. That

:51:05.:51:05.

should be part of it. Now there are already several

:51:06.:51:08.

political songs aiming to get into this year's Christmas singles

:51:09.:51:10.

chart, but a group of Labour MPs yesterday launched another -

:51:11.:51:13.

and they're showing a distinct lack of seasonal goodwill

:51:14.:51:16.

towards some of Britain's To the tune of Do They Know It's

:51:17.:51:18.

Christmas, their song names half a dozen companies they say

:51:19.:51:25.

are mistreating their staff by stripping them of Sunday

:51:26.:51:27.

pay and other perks following the increase

:51:28.:51:31.

to the minimum wage. The Labour MP who organised

:51:32.:51:34.

the recording is Siobhan McDonagh. She joins us now, as does

:51:35.:52:36.

the Conservative MP Kwasi Kwarteng. It looks like you took all these

:52:37.:52:47.

people hostage and made them saying. They did of their own volition

:52:48.:52:50.

because they want to talk about low pay and how people are being hit by

:52:51.:52:54.

the national with living wage and losing their other conditions. They

:52:55.:52:59.

are not perks. They signed up for double-time on working Sunday and

:53:00.:53:02.

bank holidays and there are a group of people out there who are angry

:53:03.:53:05.

that they have lived by the rules and not been treated right. That is

:53:06.:53:09.

right, regardless of the athletics, the message is quite strong. --

:53:10.:53:19.

aesthetics. Marks Spencer has removed premiums for working Sundays

:53:20.:53:24.

and anti-social hours. Tesco cut overtime pay, changing it from

:53:25.:53:27.

double to time and a half. B dropped extra pay for Sundays. Cafe

:53:28.:53:35.

near road no longer getting free lunch while on shift. I think it is

:53:36.:53:41.

worth complaining about. Having to do ovation before you share in a

:53:42.:53:45.

bonus isn't the most terrible thing. -- having to do probation. You

:53:46.:53:49.

appreciate that, with the national living wage, they are having to pay

:53:50.:53:56.

more money to more people, and these companies are not charities. They

:53:57.:53:59.

have to make money. They do, but they have to keep doing that. So you

:54:00.:54:04.

take away a free lunch while you are on shift? Or you don't pay people

:54:05.:54:10.

for their lunchtime. How much are you saving? How mean. They are well

:54:11.:54:18.

established companies. These people are good people and they get up and

:54:19.:54:22.

go to work everyday and, just like all of us, they have to pay their

:54:23.:54:25.

mortgage and look after their kids and it isn't right and it shouldn't

:54:26.:54:28.

be happening. The only reason this issue is being talked about on this

:54:29.:54:33.

programme is because of the video. Your gut and dined out on its desire

:54:34.:54:38.

to do something for the just about managing. -- your government dines

:54:39.:54:43.

out. And people losing the perks and conditions are just about managing

:54:44.:54:47.

and they are losing out. The government has taken hundreds of

:54:48.:54:52.

thousands of people out of tax. We have increased the personal tax

:54:53.:54:57.

allowance from 6020 ten to 12,000, so to say the government isn't doing

:54:58.:55:00.

right by people who are struggling is completely false. I hope that the

:55:01.:55:07.

boards of these companies will think about it, look again at their next

:55:08.:55:10.

board meeting and, if they don't look at it, Theresa May will look at

:55:11.:55:17.

closing these loopholes. These are well liked companies. They are great

:55:18.:55:22.

companies. Are you worried that this plays to the narrative that Labour

:55:23.:55:27.

is anti-business? Not that old IMS and new Labour as you get in the

:55:28.:55:34.

PLP. -- I am as new Labour as you get. I am doing this because we

:55:35.:55:40.

could find no other way to give voice to these people. Marks

:55:41.:55:44.

Spencer has had its problems recently but its profits last year

:55:45.:55:50.

were ?690 million. Now it is saying that it wants to removed premiums

:55:51.:55:54.

for working Sundays. When I worked as a student, you got more if you

:55:55.:55:58.

worked on a Sunday. Kingfisher, B finish, pre-tax profits of 436

:55:59.:56:06.

million in the first six months. Tesco, 71 million pre-tax profit in

:56:07.:56:17.

the first six months. Cafe Nero, 24 million in profit, up 8.5%, and now

:56:18.:56:22.

they say to their staff, you can't have a free lunch when they are on

:56:23.:56:28.

strict. It must cost peanuts. -- on shift. So you want to penalised

:56:29.:56:32.

successful companies? On the Sunday point, when you were a student, and

:56:33.:56:37.

I dread to think when that was... No need to get personal. Sundays were

:56:38.:56:44.

completely different. These people have a contract which gives them

:56:45.:56:49.

double-time on a Sunday. This group of people in Marks and Spencer have

:56:50.:56:52.

worked there since previous two 2004. They have done 30 years for

:56:53.:56:59.

the firm and they love the firm but they are upset it isn't doing right

:57:00.:57:07.

by them. -- 13 years. What is your position? I have sympathy with both

:57:08.:57:13.

positions. Do you know some companies that are doing this well?

:57:14.:57:17.

It is all very well to complain but we have record employment, record

:57:18.:57:24.

low unemployment. All those people who are going, some of them

:57:25.:57:28.

conditions, but pay is going up. Who are the companies you think are

:57:29.:57:32.

doing this well? A company off the top of my head is Pret. Their

:57:33.:57:40.

employer says, my staff are my bread and butter. There is no way I am

:57:41.:57:45.

going to do this to them. It is just about fairness. It isn't about

:57:46.:57:52.

anything bigger than that. Tesco has taken on 15,000 extra seasonal

:57:53.:57:55.

workers this Christmas, and maybe they are doing that because of this

:57:56.:57:59.

kind of environment. If you force them to carry on playing fields

:58:00.:58:04.

perks, they may not take on so many people. -- paying these perks. We

:58:05.:58:09.

are talking about people who already have contracts though. Witch when

:58:10.:58:14.

wages have been squeezed for some long, you would think good companies

:58:15.:58:17.

would want to look after their people. We have got record

:58:18.:58:22.

employment. There are more people working today in Britain than ever

:58:23.:58:28.

before. You can't sustain that by increasing wages all the time. This

:58:29.:58:31.

isn't about increasing wages. We have run out of time. RB Tory MPs

:58:32.:58:39.

going to produce one? I don't think the singing would be as good. You

:58:40.:58:47.

could do Pump Up The Jam. How long did that take you? Three days.

:58:48.:58:50.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:51.:58:55.

And I will be on BBC One tonight with Alan Johnson,

:58:56.:58:57.

Michael Portillo, Miranda Green, John Nicolson, Chas and Dave,

:58:58.:59:00.

and Brian Blessed for the final This Week of 2016, looking back

:59:01.:59:03.

MUSIC: Stand By Me by Ben E King

:59:04.:59:05.

Andrew Neil is joined by Conservative peer James O'Shaughnessy to discuss the future of school funding.

There is also analysis of Theresa May's visit to the EU summit in Brussels and the latest on the government's plans to increase social care funding through council tax rises.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS