01/10/2011 Dateline London

network. When Martha now -- now, it is time for Dateline London.

Welcome to Dateline London. Increasing the money to bail out

the eurozone. Will it work? Saudi Arabian votes for Women. My guests

today are Nabila Ramdani, Geoffrey H 2. Is it too late to bail out

countries in the eurozone? Will the German people support the decisions

of their superiors? What would happen if we had the Deutschmark?

These are the facts and figures. Currency would immediately

depreciate dramatically. This was problem. I do not think that has

been sufficiently told. Why should the Germans continued to fund this

enterprise? I do not think Germans want to be in the position to pull

the plug on anything like this. I think they will continue for a

while. The Germans felt very uncomfortable in their own skins

and they do not want to be seen to abandon it. They did what to

administer the coup de CRO de grace. They want some collective decision

to do it. You will not see them uniquely do it by themselves. We're

just hoping that some have Greece might reform herself in the

structural area, collecting more taxation, privatising more

businesses abroad. The austerity programme will choke off growth in

Greece. Some of the structural reforms might make headway. It is

just hoping against hope really. you think Merkel understand how

great the crisis is now? She has been dithering from the beginning.

Even now she fails to bring across the message to the German people

that it is important they keep the euro for their own economies.

may explain her Stirchley why it is strange that the popular opinion is

usually weighted against this. Every major decision that Germany

took up an World War II under the administer -- original

administration was taken against the obvious popular opinion. There

was always a discrepancy between parliamentarians and popular

opinions. We think we are in a representative democracy. It will

only be OK for the time Bill -- time being. Bills will have to be

paid. It will not be HMA who will pull the plug. We in this country

owe a huge debt to the Germans. I think we are extraordinarily

arrogant. We wave of fingers at them saying pay more without

offering a penny ourselves. Aaron fate is inextricably caught up. I

look at the way the Germans behave, had Angela Merkel's bravery. The

will to do the right thing and pay out an enormous amount of money to

a country they consider profligate. That is political bravery. What we

do that in this country? You bet we would not. Even though we need the

eurozone to survive this belief. We're hoping that it does and we

should praise the Germans instead of constantly weaving a finger and

asking for more. There are those who say that Britain should join

the eurozone and it -- but this is exposing the fundamental flaws of

the eurozone. It is a constant series of disasters. They give for

calling the Germans brave but it is only for an interim period.. --

thank you. They do not know how long they will have to sacrifice

this for. I think the end game and the fear of the unknown is gripping.

But they are propping up economies that are in real peril. If it does

will come unstuck, that money will still have been needed. It is not

just going down a black hole. might be Sarkozy performs the coup

de Grand Prix. -- coup de grave. think the French and Germans have

shown how committed they were to the eurozone. Angela Merkel's

majority after narrowly averting the collapse of their government,

only after pledging there would be no grand plan committing Germany to

fast and unlimited liabilities, this sums up the position of the

Germans in general, why should they not as an economic powerhouse have

to bail out lesser performing countries over and over. They are

becoming as Euro-sceptic as the British. I talked to a German

government minister this week to echoed some things he said. She

said that after the war, they were given a hand up by the European

Union. And that is why you can bet your bottom dollar that Germans

understand their own a huge debt of gratitude to Europe. They have

benefited from the euro also. be clear about what it is we are

losing. The whole European idea is in greater jeopardy. What was wrong

with the idea of the eurozone was that it was done too fast too soon

with countries that were to incompatible. The idea was

brilliant and if it had started with countries that have similar

economies and gradually grown as countries got richer, so there was

an ever-closer union of people who could realistically partake in this,

it has been destroyed and it will never happen again. I think the

eurozone is as much about economy as it is about politics. There were

some signs of possible reform in Saudi Arabia this week, talk of

maybe allow on women to vote. It comes as Bahrain's -- Bahrain jails

doctors and nurses for helping those injured in the Arab Spring

protests. Can we expect some kind of serious protest? It shows that

absolutely Gulf monarchies are not immune to the political turmoil

that has been going on in the region. That is why these countries,

Saudi Arabia in particular, are realising they are not immune to

that turmoil. There are implementing radical reforms. I

think this plan to allow women to run for elections would be a grand

plan for women in Saudi Arabia. It is also largely token mystic and

unconvincing in the extreme. can vote in Saudi Arabia but they

do not vote because there's not much to vote for. So it is to could

mistake for them to. You can't hold the leaders accountable. But women

can't apply to hold roles as Cabinet ministers. They can't drive

or travel abroad without permission. In that exposes the contradictions

within Saudi Arabia. Women will be allowed to stand for elections but

she will have will hava man drive her to Parliament. I saw a very --

Twitter that said Saudi women can vote on for it. We have to be

realistic about the changes that are being offered here. They can

vote and run for elections for local councils that have no power.

They should be news it was 1911 not 2011. Even with these advances,

they still have to have a male companion to allow them to do these

things. It makes the internal contradictions more and more absurd.

Everything they give away, they feel the pressure and afraid of

what they are seen. That makes things even worse. It does not

improve the situation. I think it is high time that we and all these

other countries say that we will not have any more dealings with

these regimes. We are up to our necks in blood in Bahrain and Saudi

Arabia and we should apologise, step back, support the opposition

and have no more commitment to it. Bahrain is absolutely extraordinary.

It is very different from -- anybody in Western Europe or

America we think it is quite despicable to jail doctors and

nurses for helping people injured in the Arab Spring. Women and

children have been imprisoned or so and tortured. It shows there is no

appetite to threaten that part of the world. That is the dilemma

isn't it for Western governments. They may talk about democracy but

they want peace and quiet in the Arab region, particularly those

countries that produce oil. President Obama did not mention

Saudi Arabia once in his Middle East speech. There is no chance

that Saudi Arabia will be a force to reform much more deeper in Saudi

society by countries surrounding it. There is no chance that it will be

pressured into reforming the country by Western countries who

are in bed with Saudi Arabia. The change is bound to come from within.

And what is happening with women getting more political, it is a

sign the change will come domestically. I think the Saudi

king is coming to the realisation that he is not immune. What he has

his pots of money. He is trying to deploy that. He could offer

personally some incredible package to train delay economic anger. That

is something there is going for him. A rescue fund? And this will keep

the Arab Spring from lapping on the shores. Do you have any optimism,

we have seen what happens on the ground and heard about the distaste

in the Arab world, do you think the West has much leverage that it is

prepared to use in barring? Bahrain certainly. Whether it is

prepared to use it is another question. I suspect not. I can't

see the US pulling out of Bahrain in a hurry. Crossing Bahrain means

crossing Saudi Arabia. My Touch- tone on this is always the

Simpson's where they had an episode in which Barth said it is as

American as a 51st state Saudi is really are. We have to believe that

in our lifetimes, democracy has read -- spread across the globe and

will continue to do so. It is quite remarkable that if you look at a

map of the world when we were born in how it is now, democracy happens

Each country has its own rhythm to follow, so we should not be too

dogmatic about time lines. Although I agree that a map of the world

would look different about where democracy is a recurring, whether

they are pursuing a liberal democracy in the same way as ours...

Look at the American constitution and the appalling state it is in.

Look at the non-democratic behaviour in this country. It is

never perfect. Democracy is always a work in progress. There are those

who have suggested that things could actually go backwards and

things could become more ere

is a compact between the religious leaders and political leaders and

that no matter what the king does, the succession question, which many

people in Saudi Arabia find impossible to discuss, means that

you could have a more conservative state in five years' time. That is

one of the concerns. But I think that the fact that the ruling

family in Saudi Arabia is launching these radical reforms is a show of

weakness. It says a lot about the need for change in order not to go

back, effectively. It is so bizarre that there is Saudi Arabia, the

fight a's nest of Wahhabism that is causing the terrorism and trouble

across the world and it is in this absolutely unbreakable bond with

the country these people are destroying. Our energy dependence

on Saudi Arabia is the linchpin of all of this. That is why we need a

new deal so then Europe can head that way and become independent.

Developing new energy technology is the way to go. In the meantime, we

to go. British politics took a turn this

week as Ed Miliband had to stake out your ground in his speech. As

th thtives had to their annual conference, David Cameron is

trying to avoid a row in Europe and other causes close to his party's

right wing and whether he is doing enough to stimulate the economy.

But looking back at this week, did Ed Miliband revenge -- emerged as a

credible Prime Minister in waiting? I am still up in the air. Here, at

least, was a speech of substance. We have been used to so many VAT

and television Oriented performances. -- that it. It was

too long, he is not great on television. Most peoplMost peopl

have seen its entire content. They will have just seen a few clicks on

the use and they will they will on that. But those who will have seen

it will have realised that he is e

we have had this great crash, no- one has asked what this means for

how we go forward. Will we allow hereditary companies and banks and

financiers tnanciers tntries and democracies? Or are we going to try

to break that and say that we can have a better form of capitalism?

It is not anti-capitalist but an idea of benevolent capitalism.

Haven't we seen that debate already? It is not such a novel

idea to me but as the language that he has used, calling these

institutions predators and so on. Other companies as well, not just

banks. Private-equity as well. the discussion that we cannot go on

as we used to instead of business as usual, the phrases that he used,

I have a feeling we have heard that before since 2008. Five don't

remember that phrase in particular but you are right. Having a stand

out against banks is nothing new. Politicians around the world are

doing that but whether they are actually in that the policies that

would force behind their words is another story. Ed Miliband is

always a to be held back by performance. Because we live in a

time where in Britain you will have debates in television, this is

going to be a hindrance for him. Unless he can improve his

performance in a way that can appeal to the electorate on a basic

level, it is going to be difficult for him. He is good in debates and

speeches are very old-fashioned nonsense. In hand-to-hand combat,

so to speak, he will be very good. I think he should abolish speeches.

If I was a leader, I would always abolish a speech. It is agony to

write, weeks of time wasted, much better to just get out there and

answer questions. Being yourself - a bit dangerous! What do you think?

I think that party conferences are always well scripted and that it is

what we will see at the Conservative Party Conference as

well. I still do not know what the Conservatives are all about - who

they are and what they represent - and there will be a chance for them

to explain that. If they want to betray themselves as a more

traditional party or if they will portray themselves as having a

modernist agenda, the agenda that got them elected in the first place.

Returning to that point about performances, it is about what

people think of as character. Even if you do not meet Ed Miliband,

Nick Clegg or David Cameron, when you see these people on television,

David Cameron is light as a person and that is important. But how much

longer it will go on being important for... We started off

with people saying that the deficit was the most important thing.

People supported that. But now the budget cuts are starting to hit and

people are thinking that it is going too far and too fast. They

are seeing their jobs go and they are seeing the effects of the

budget cuts and next year it is going to be worse. Apart from the

top ten %, most households will come in at least 7% of their income.

That is enormous, not seen since the 1920s. In the end, bread and

butter that is so much more than the charge of the leader. -- charm

of the leader. His is difficult as an opposition leader to provide

yourself as a future contender for the highest office if you have four

more years until the next election. Labour is still ahead on the pulse,

surprisingly. Perhaps leadership is not everything. The gimmicky

concepts like the Big Society will not cut it. Effectively, what that

is about his doing it yourself, asking charities to take over the

role of the state when charity funding is being cut as well. And

also, I always like to remind people of this quote: Charity is no

substitute for social justice. And that is what people want. It looks

like we will have a change of policy in putting some money into

helping people get their rubbish bins collected once per week. It

sounds trivial but I cannot tell you how irritated some people get

about things like that and that sort of thing works in politics.

And when money suddenly becomes available for these things, it

suddenly becomes available. They can play it cleverly that way but

in terms of actually trying to change the direction in which they

are going, so many opinions are coming up - from the IMF of all

sources - saying that you have got to concentrate on job-creation and

economic growth and that austerity cuts are not enough. And from the

Conservative Party as well. that is not just in Britain but all

across Europe. We are seeing that with discussion over Greece's debt.

Austerity cannot solve everything, it has got to be about growth.

Britain has voluntarily chosen the most austere measures of all

countries. We have volunteer to have the most austere measures, the

toughest budget cuts - 22,000 people thrown out of the Armed

Forces, that kind of thing, 20% cut in the police force at a time when

crime is likely to be rising - these are ferocious and it is only

beginning to happen. I do not believe that this does not impact

on the government of the day and I am not surprised that they are

behind in the opinion polls. That is no reason why bin collection if

it increases is going to refloat the economy. (LAUGHS). Britain is

in a rather unique position. It can spend on capital, could go for

large projects, something has got to refloat the economy. It costs

less to borrow and we could lend again at a profit! The argument is

that it only cost us less tomorrow because we are being so Ostia.

then we have the industrialists, who are very right wing, telling us

to build houses, infrastructure, railways, energy, power stations

and so on and get the economy going. Even they are saying this. The

deficit is beginning to fade as being the main focus. If people are

talking about opening the floodgates. Why? People are talking

about stalling. And don't call it stimulus, because that is a

discredited word. Call it investment for the sake of the

economy. To return to where we began, is they going to be an

argument on Europe at the party conference this week? Some in the

Tory party are saying that now is the time to reshape UK's role in

the EU. It is an outrageous idea but Europe is very unpopular in

this country. Any Rover -- any referendum with the word Europe in

it would all to let leak yield the answer No. -- all to let me. But To

try to work advantage for ourselves when Germany is shouldering such a

huge share of the burden is outrageous. I hope that we have

politicians being slightly Matt Ballin us and say that this is no

time to see some advantage around the side -- Magna mess. They could

possibly think wider and hold back a little bit. One thing that would

be popular is the idea that the banks could contribute a little of