07/01/2012 Dateline London

being blamed on Boko Haram. Christian leaders said they will

Welcome to Dateline London, a week when the United States announced

defence cuts and a shift towards the Pacific while Republicans

choose their candidate to take on a bye. The recent low of Stephen

Lawrence - has it changed Britain? The latest atrocities in Syria. --

the recent murder. My guests today are Mustapha Karkouti, Eunice Goes,

Bernard Burrell and Yasmin Alibhain Brown. Barack Obama has admitted

that to be supposed military strategy of fighting to make big

wars simultaneously is not attainable. -- achievable. They

will shift emphasis to the Pacific. Should the world welcomed the news

and should his Republican opponents welcome it? -- welcome the news. It

is now up to Europe to sort out its own defence problems and it is up

to Europe to survey all the Middle East - these are the messages that

are being delivered. Absolutely, they need to spend more money on

defence, and I think France and the United Kingdom will be pressuring

the rest of Europe to spend more on defence. It is also recognition of

the limits of the Imperial out reach of the United States and,

finally, we got this recognition that they cannot do everything. --

The lump in the US budget was huge, absolutely huge, the cost of these

two wars. It is also interesting that America is playing at --

paying attention to China and they have been doing interesting things

in the developing world. They are quietly but, little by little, it

is creating its own little empire. The amount of investment in Latin

America is huge. In Africa now, China is the IMF. They gave a big

loan to the Angolan government. That was after they project the IMF

They continued investing in Angola, Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Nigeria and so

on. The United States recognise that - when they talk about the

Pacific, they be leaning China. They mean business. -- they mean

Do you think it is good news for the Middle East, in general?

Perhaps not the Israeli-Palestinian problem, at the core of it, but you

think many Arab countries will think this is a good idea? The

people will think it is a good idea, not necessarily governments. You

must distinguish between the two. By and large, I think they are good

things in a way. It is an admission of failure, at the same time, that

you cannot intervene in every corner of the world. The failure in

Iraq, some people have called its success. The UN completed business

in Afghanistan, as well. -- the America still remains the most

powerful country on earth. One significant element is its ability

to intervene. That is still there, it is untouched. The 12 carriers

are still there. Nothing will change on that level. There are

changes on the ground but no change Most Americans, I am sure, would

not see that this was a failure. This cutback in military spending

is seen as a weakness. In the year of the election in America, this

will be one of the key issues battled out until November. I agree

with you when you say it is a new move. Americans are always changing

their tactics and strategies according to the wind that is going

through the world. In the 70s and 80s, they were dominant in the

Caribbean, they were trying to keep the Russians out of Cuba but now

they are not concerned about that. They are concerned about drug

trafficking and so forth. You could call it a own admission of failure,

but not as far as the Americans are concerned. We should not forget

that. For Obama, in the year of election, this is not one of the

best moves. I think Americans, because they are going through the

economic crisis, many more of them are beginning to see that

expenditure on defence was not wise in the economic situation. I do not

think we should take Obama at his word. Iran is brewing. They want

this thing to happen in Iran. That will not go away. It has become so

normalise now that it is now only a question of when, not if. The focus

on Iran has not gone. The other thing is that there is power and

then there is power. I grew up during the Cold War in Africa. What

America did then, which they should do again, is soft power. The

Chinese are not bullying people. They had special influence. During

the Cold War, both sides did that. The number of schools, bridges and

so forth, they were like presents. A side that only used arms power,

it lost that power. It has been easier to get military spending

increased and foreign -- more than foreign aid. The United States, now

they want to use the drone warfare so their boys and girls are not

heard. They will intervene, but not on the ground. -- not hurt. They

were involved in the Libyan conflict recently but not with

It cost them trillions of dollars to get involved in Iraq and

Afghanistan and now they have lost Libya. The lives that are lost our

lives that are not counted. This is a big fantasy. This was the fantasy

of the first Gulf War, that it was the virtual war without any

casualties. The official speak of Iraq was that no-one was killed.

How many wars can we fight like that? It is a surreal war if we

think we can press a button... Technology has developed since the

first Gulf War. If we are looking at interventions in the Middle East,

even in Asia, it does not work like that. At some point Mackie will

need to have Conventional forces doing the hard work. -- at some

point, you will need to have conventional forces. Many Arab

governments may be worried that the American government will use less

influence, particularly in the question of Iran. There are a

number of governments concerned about developments in Iran. The

American presence would remain despite the cuts. The fleets is

that there, their bases are still there. -- are still there. Israel

slip at rest. They do not worry at all. Whatever happened to the

defensive strategy in the US... Israel will always be guaranteed

protection and everything. Also, the interest of the West and the US

in the region will continue to be protected, despite these cuts. The

murder of Stephen Lawrence in London almost 20 years ago finally

saw the conviction of two white racists. How has Britain changed

since Stephen Lawrence's murder? Bernard Burrell, I know you

reported and studied on this quite a lot. How do you think this has,

finally come impacted Britain? We do not have the time to go into

orbit. We need to look at these things in a wider context rather

than looking at race Relations Development. Looking at it from a

traditional point of view, looking up the law then as opposed to now,

you would think that things have changed for the better,

particularly in the double jeopardy move. In terms of Polly's

competence, in looking at cases of this nature, I think it has changed.

-- police competence. If you look at it from a point of view of

community relations, there are so many ethnic groups in Britain, to

boys is counterproductive. The world has changed since those guys

committed that terrible murder. More stabbings that are now going

on is not whites against blacks, it is black people against each other.

Sorry to interrupt, but that becomes one of the areas where the

police say, "We talked to many people in various black communities

and they say we have to tackle this and we do it by targeting some

young black males," and that caused us problems. There will always be

an element of racism within the police force. That is a problem.

What we need to focus on is, why is it that, for example, in some areas,

police tend to go after more black people and stop-and-search? In some

cases, they have legitimate reasons One of the most famous shopping

streets and there was a stabbing over the Christmas period. Police

do have justifiable reasons to stop some of these people because, sorry

to say, a lot of them carried dangerous weapons.

I disagree with an edge on one thing. I think we should be careful

not to demonise an entire group. The majority of young black men do

not do this. I have spoken to a lot of them since the riots. Their

experience of the police is not good because there is an assumption

they are all carrying weapons. The other group which is in the same

situation is young Muslim men. The way they are treated by police

because of terrorism and what we as a country allowed to happen. Men

are incarcerated in our country for years without charge. We remember

the shootings when the police shot at the house they were

investigating. Things have not changed that much. Some things have

changed,... I would not call it a celebration. I do think there is a

disproportionate number of black youngsters on the streets with

weapons. A disproportionate amount is not the majority. There has been

progress and change. An important thing to bring to their discussion

is perspective, a European perspective. I come from Portugal

and race relations there are miles behind Britain, the level of

discussion. We have shanty towns on the outskirts of lease on where

Portuguese people with African Origin still live. -- the outskirts

of the capital, Lisburn. We have continually failed generations of

Portuguese people with African origin. No black or brown faces on

television, in hospital or any public institution. Until the 1975

we had an empire. We had quite a lot of Portuguese with different

ethnic backgrounds. The level of discussions in Portugal are light

years behind Britain. Sometimes we castigate the police in this

country too far. I agree with you, because when you go to places like

France... the way that police treat the local people. That is not the

point. I am sorry. We are miles ahead of Europe. That does not mean

we have to stop being critical. The trigger of the riots was the

shooting of a mixed-race man. We were told lies by the police, that

he was armed, Batty was something else. Please don't pretend that

because we are not as bad as somewhere like France, we should

not be looking at this. I give great credit to their parents,

Neville and Doreen Lawrence, for continuing the fight. It was up to

them to keep the case alive, not the society, not the police, not

the justice system. It was the parents. And all the credit goes to

them. They are an extremely good example in this society. It is

regrettable that it was up to the family and not the authorities.

Some in Egypt are now calling for the death penalty for Hosni Mubarak.

What are the chances that the Zairean rebellion can succeed and

that the Egyptian revolution can become stable? -- Syrian rebellion.

The tragedy can be contained for a little while, maybe a year. Nobody

seems to be saying that we will do something about it. Neither on the

regional nor the international level. Let's do something better

than nothing, which is sending a few observers from the Arab League,

who are being curtailed continuously, obviously. You are

from Syria. Are you saying it is not the fault of the Arab League

that they can do so little? Many people are surprise that the Arab

League does anything. I would not be surprised if, in a few months,

we heard some voices from the Arab League calling for reconciliation

with the regime. Do not be surprised, do not laugh about it.

Nothing is happening on the ground unfortunately. But at the same time,

that is going to happen. It is impossible for the regime to

reconcile with its own people. is complicated because religious

minorities are in fear of what will happen the day that Assad leaves.

That the country well have a civil war. Similar fears for Coptic

Christians in Egypt. Any time you hear anyone from the Christian

minorities in Syria, they all talk about terrorism and the Ayatollah's

taking over an Sharia law. This fear is helping Assad remain in

power. Who is pushing the fear? We tend to forget, I hate the

expression Arab Spring, I would collect a democratic revolution. It

has only gained so much. Nothing happens overnight. If you look at

what has happened in Morocco. Things will not change overnight.

In these countries, there are elements within society who are

bent on creating divisions. Syria has so many different groups. That

is where the crux of the matter lies. Hardier get over that?

ship taking any responsibility from this man and the army who are doing

what they are doing to the Syrian people. These suicide bombers make

no sense. Do you suspect it is being set up? Who is benefiting?

Exactly. On not only that, it is in the interests of the regime to

enhance the fear. Also, there is suspicion that the regime...

demonstrating groups say it has nothing to do with Al-Qaeda. They

say it is the regime. The country has had many powerful Syrians

living here in some style. I do not mean you. We are doing nothing

about them. We did have a good policy of turning on those exiles

who are part of the problem. We are leaving the Syrian exiles,

especially those close to this family. Despots put the leaders in

position. Those have been swept out and people are voting in other

people. People complain about the Islamic Brotherhood in Egypt, but

people vote for these people. They ask for democracy and a vote for

these people. I was talking about power pulls Syrians living in

Europe whose bank balances could be frozen, for a start. We have about

two minutes left and I want to ask Bernard as a Jamaican: Is your

country going to become a republic? This is something that has been

going on in Jamaica and the wider Caribbean for some time. The Queen

is in his 80s, their duties on his way out. Politicians always say

things to please the people. If you ask the average day making what

republicanism would mean to them, most of them would not know. -- the

average John Aiken. Jamaica, person from Jamaica. I think Queen

Elizabeth would ask: Quitting the date for next year? After my

Jubilee? -- could you leave it for next year? Prince Harry is going to

Jamaica in March. Will that saved the monarchy? They are talking over

each other. We have never had a really decent Prime Minister. I

know I will be slated for this. This has been said. This is a