Browse content similar to 04/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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it should be re-run. I will be back at 1 o'clock. It is | :00:04. | :00:14. | |
:00:14. | :00:33. | ||
Britain in Europe, had attached or detached is the Cameron government | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
from the problems in the EU? Syria and the UN, plus Mitt Romney moves | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
steps closer to the Republican nomination, but can his money by | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
him the presidency? With me are John Fisher Burns, Mustapha | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
Karkouti, Agnes Poirier it, and Polly Toynbee. Just before | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
Christmas, David Cameron made himself a hero in the Conservative | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
Party for standing up to unacceptable parts of the European | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
project. It seemed to have him in the opinion poll. Things are more | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
complicated. How well is the British Prime Minister handling the | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
balancing act between what is British supporters expect and what | :01:16. | :01:22. | |
is needed to have a real say in the running of the you? It was an on | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
Beatle that he suddenly imposed on stopping everybody using European | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
institutions to do what we desperately need them to do, which | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
is to save the eurozone. Our economic figures show us on the | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
point of absolute peril, likely to go into a double-dip recession and | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
to have 0.3% growth this year. With all of the caveat that whiffed the | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
eurozone collapses and things get worse, we are in for an appalling | :01:52. | :02:00. | |
economic situation. -- a caveat that with the eurozone. Why was | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
camera and saying, make it as difficult as possible? He was being | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
obstreperous to please his backbenchers. Now he has had to | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
reverse it. He was trying to stop the financial transaction tax. | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
was not part of it. That was not part of what was being proposed. He | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
was using the European institutions. I fit we should go ahead with it | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
but we are not obliged. -- I think. There is no prospect of that | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
happening across Europe except with each country individually. It would | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
be immensely popular here. That is a separate issue. If you veto the | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
use of institutions that would have helped us, you have to back off. He | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
looks ridiculous. One of the big questions is how Britain is | :02:51. | :03:00. | |
regarded, or if Britain is regarded. How is it seen in France? He was a | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
hero with the Tory party but everywhere else, he was a flu. -- | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
through. We do not know what the British position on Europe is any | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
more. Do the British know where they stand? I guess, they must feel | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
as unsettled as David Cameron himself. One day he says, we will | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
veto everything went actually, it was in the country's interests to | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
go along with the treaty in terms of physical unity and integration. | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
Now he says, actually, perhaps we are going to because we are still | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
in Europe. In the end it does not help anyone. When he says that | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
Europeans have got to get their act together and when he makes comments | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
about Germany during war, he is not alone in thinking that. There are a | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
lot of people who think those things. Most importantly, Europe | :03:53. | :04:02. | |
has not got its act together on Greece, for example. When Sarkozy | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
said, you are not even in the eurozone, so stop lecturing us, you | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
need to say, we are going to withdraw totally form Europe. At | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
least that would be a clear position. To be on the margin of | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
Europe and still telling people what they should be dealing is not | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
possible. We are going to talk about Syria. Hillary Clinton was | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
saying this week that Europe and the US are united. When she talks | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
about Europe, does Britain fit into any of that? Given that many | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
Americans have no views on this whatsoever, do the American | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
political classes care whether Britain is a big player in Europe? | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
They have favoured the European project. They have always been | :04:53. | :05:01. | |
unhappy with Euro-scepticism in the UK. It seems to me, Mr Sarkozy was | :05:01. | :05:11. | |
:05:11. | :05:14. | ||
being somewhat sharp in his remarks about Cameron. 40% of Britain's | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
trade is with Europe. Britain is involved in the IMF. Our banks are | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
involved. To suggest that the British Prime Minister should stay | :05:23. | :05:30. | |
out of this, it is none of his business, is, to my mind, absurd. | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
The other thing I would say is that Cameron his, as you said, in a | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
difficult position. It is a difficult balancing act. The | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
imperative for him his to make sure that Euro-scepticism in the Tory | :05:45. | :05:54. | |
party does not rise up and bite him. He does not have a manoeuvring room. | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
Iping he is a naturally -- naturally a Euro-sceptic. We are an | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
integral part of the European project. We depend on them for | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
trade. Our economy is tottering on the edge because of them. He played | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
to them by pulling us out of the gripping, be conservative grouping | :06:13. | :06:22. | |
in Europe. At a time when he should be in clover in Europe, when he has | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
got Conservative governments, people who should be his natural | :06:26. | :06:33. | |
allies, he had alienated them all. Isn't the underlying issue here, we | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
have seen extraordinary job creation figures in the US this | :06:38. | :06:46. | |
week. This is great for the world economy. Europe as a whole is | :06:46. | :06:54. | |
simply not creating jobs, it is not working. It is not now, but I think | :06:54. | :07:03. | |
it is coming. I must, if they want to get out of this crisis. -- they | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
must. To go back to the position of Mr Cameron, although he is | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
reversing his position now, and he is after all a politician, now he | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
is listening to the City of London rather than his own party and | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
backbenchers and all of that. That was his troubled, ever since he | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
made a declaration under tremendous pressure from the Conservative | :07:31. | :07:40. | |
Party. All of Europe's finances is here, more or less, of course plus | :07:40. | :07:47. | |
Germany. How do you get out of this situation with the City of London? | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
Are a final thought on Sarkozy. The fact is, Britain in front -- | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
Britain and France have a lot in common in terms of security. How | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
much is it plain to the gallery because he is facing an imminent | :08:01. | :08:09. | |
election? -- playing. They had this amazing relationship, Cameron and | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
Sarkozy, but it was just a fling, a short affair. Remember them are a | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
few months ago, in Benghazi, both of them were acclaimed by the | :08:19. | :08:28. | |
Libyans. From there it was downhill. In December, whether Sarkozy | :08:28. | :08:37. | |
refused -- when Sarkozy refused to shake the hand of Cameron... It is | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
difficult to qualify -- disqualify so cosy. It is probably true that | :08:42. | :08:52. | |
:08:52. | :08:52. | ||
he is on the way out. He was saying, if I am not elected you will never | :08:52. | :09:01. | |
see me again. He is a formidable campaigner, so he might be there | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
again and they will have to patch things up. | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
A question of what to do about Syria has been resounding around | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
the United Nations this week. Russia is adamant that any formal | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
moves to demand regime change will cause problems. This comes as | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
violence at a football match in Egypt suggests that there could be | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
trouble to impose law and order. What are the chances for peace and | :09:28. | :09:35. | |
a democratic future in these two Arab count -- countries? The | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
attacks in Homs, whatever the state media said, would very much like | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
revenge and an attempt to blame dissidents for the violence against | :09:44. | :09:52. | |
ordinary people? I think it is more like that -- than that. It is using | :09:52. | :10:01. | |
violence to increased -- increase the fear of the regime started. It | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
does not seem there is any other policy for the regime, apart from | :10:06. | :10:15. | |
creating this multiple fear. For minorities, fear of the minorities, | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
for the majorities, fear of instability, for the neighbourhoods, | :10:20. | :10:29. | |
the fear of have it. It is more than revenge. It is peace and | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
parcel of its strategy to control the country via the use of force | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
and creating fear. It is not working. It is not going to work. I | :10:39. | :10:47. | |
am surprised how the Russians have accepted the situation. They may | :10:47. | :10:57. | |
have interests in the region, fair enough, but they have to not only - | :10:57. | :11:05. | |
- they have to send a high-level negotiator of theirs and talk to | :11:05. | :11:13. | |
President Assad. Are you saying it is not in Russia's long-term | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
interests that Syrians know what is going on at the UN? That it is not | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
in their long-term interest to do with President Assad in this way? | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
The regime does not deserve to be called it regime. It is more of an | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
guying, it is a family, people around it are fighting to protect | :11:32. | :11:39. | |
their own interests. -- it is more of a gang. They are not necessarily | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
representing large numbers. We all know that Damascus and Homs are | :11:45. | :11:54. | |
still quiet, but this is middle- class businessmen and the nouveau | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
riche, who were created with the regime and as a result of the | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
regime, these people will change their position once they see where | :12:06. | :12:16. | |
:12:16. | :12:18. | ||
things are moving. They are not fully supportive of the regime. | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
dilemma is what to do about it, if anything? There was a sort of | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
euphoria about Western observers saying is in the Arab Spring | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
wonderful? Night we are realising that revolutions are painful and | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
cost terrible suffering. It makes us look back and say, what a | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
miracle it was that when the Communist regime spell, they felt | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
so peacefully? How extraordinary that South Africa managed such a | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
peaceful transition. You look at the real pain of revelation and | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
anyone thinks revolutions are wonderful must be thinking, how | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
long does it take to get to stability? Lead at Libya, look at | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
everywhere. It feels pretty miserable and those people are | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
unbelievably brave, who are willing to fight so hard for freedom | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
knowing it is a long and slow process. What ever written might | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
think, it is going to be the Syrians themselves who will do it? | :13:12. | :13:22. | |
:13:22. | :13:28. | ||
Nobody wants to intervene in Syria, we all know this, but that is why | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
it the Russians have overshadowed the veto, they have and sexually | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
vetoed anything, but they should abstain -- they haven't actually | :13:39. | :13:48. | |
vetoed anything. Bashar al-Assad is going to go. We don't know when, | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
but the region is going to collapse. It's not because historically Syria | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
is the last Allied in the region, but they must go, it doesn't make | :14:00. | :14:08. | |
sense, especially when Turkey is so ready to play a role in the region. | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
Iran is the black shadow because it is helping Bashar al-Assad, but it | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
is terrible to see, really, especially from here, because Syria | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
is so close and yet so far, and we are not going to do anything, and | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
it will be much bloodier before it gets better, and both sides have | :14:26. | :14:36. | |
:14:36. | :14:38. | ||
gone so far. One of them has to go. I have to thoughts about it,. | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
have to thoughts about it. The first is Mr Putin's manipulation of | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
elections, which causes me to think how little has changed in Russia, | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
having lived there for several years, and the fundamental | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
disposition of the government of Russia. Their recent performance on | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
Syria is just another example of that. Where is the principle? Where | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
is the sense of concern for the people and for human rights? Beyond | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
that, I would say, if we have learned anything at all from the | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
events of the last year, and it would be a certain sense of modesty | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
about very early limits to the influence we can bring to bear on | :15:18. | :15:26. | |
any of this. It is way beyond our management. Yes, we should of | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
course support un Security Council resolutions -- UN Security Council | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
resolutions, sanctions by all means, but look at Le -- Libya, where we | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
spent billions of dollars bombing, I lived and the bombs for two | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
months last summer in Libya -- under the bombs, in the name of | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
people and human rights, and what have we bought about? We now read | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
day after day about torture and murder in the prisons of the rebels. | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
Have we really brought about any fundamental change? So I would say | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
we would be well cautioned to draw a lesson from... Learning the | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
lessons of history, I would be shocked if that happened. Let stand | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
back and see there is an internal dynamic, it is tragic, but it is | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
entirely foolish of us to think... I am not that worried about Libya, | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
to tell the truth. If you watch so many Libyan satellite switched | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
sprang out after the fall of Gadaffi, the debate which is going | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
on is so wonderful, it gives you hope that there is a huge number of | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
people who are talking about exactly what you have said, but | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
also, there are presenting new looks, ideas, and pressing the | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
opposition to do something about it. Going back to Syria, finally, if I | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
may, yes, it is difficult, we all agree that international help his | :16:56. | :17:04. | |
shortcoming, -- is a shortcoming, but I think if Iran continues its | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
support to President a sad, in light of the glowing influence in | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
Iraq itself -- President Assad, this is very frightening for a lot | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
of people in the region. Iranian influence in Iraq. | :17:20. | :17:27. | |
should invite Turkey to come into Syria with other forces, those who | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
are willing to come, to counterbalance the Iranian | :17:31. | :17:39. | |
influence in Iraq -- in Syria. Otherwise, the third alternative, | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
this beautiful country will be left to disintegrate. You are talking | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
about 23 million people, which is very tragic, I think, if that is to | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
happen. Let's move on because Mitt Romney handsomely won the Florida | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
primary over his only significant rival Newt Gingrich this week but | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
only after spelling -- spending millions of dollars on negative | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
advertising. What do we make of this Republican campaign and what | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
kind of fight will it come down to in the autumn? It looks as if | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
Romney is now the pre-eminent candidate again, but he has still | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
not sealed the deal. When we heard about US employment figures | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
yesterday, it made me think that the wisest thing to say about these | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
elections is what we heard all those years ago during the first | :18:27. | :18:35. | |
Clinton election, it's the economy, stupid. If the economy begins a | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
serious recovery, particularly jobs, which has been a real political | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
issue, then a Obama for all his weak performance in the opinion | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
polls, up against a rather dubious crew of Republican opponents, I | :18:50. | :18:57. | |
would have thought would have a relatively easy, or easier ride | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
back to the White House. If the economy doesn't improve, of course, | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
who knows? But the Republicans are not doing themselves a huge amount | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
of favours with the nature of the campaign being conducted. I think | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
the Americans are very disappointed, and in some respects alienated by | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
the campaign, and by these vast amounts of money. There we have | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
seen before, and thank God for it, money does not necessarily decide | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
elections in the United States. Prospero. If you are not credible, | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
it doesn't matter how much you spend. Having a lot of money | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
probably helps. It is not insignificant, but with the | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
negative some of these Republican candidates carry, it seems to me | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
that for all the gigantic sums of money, I mean they are spending | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
more in single campaigns for the primaries in Florida, for example, | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
than political parties in the UK spend on an entire general election. | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
It is interesting, this one big theme that comes through Western | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
demand -- politics at the moment, fairness, what is there, how the | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
super rich pay their way, which is the French campaign as well. This | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
is a big discussion people are having all over the place. That is | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
right, it is, but to go back, we are not talking about the | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
presidential election in the US, but the primaries, which is often | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
not covered in Europe, because, look at the negative ads, for | :20:25. | :20:35. | |
instance. I want to urge everyone to read Democracy On America again | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
because he talked about America being like children. Did you see | :20:41. | :20:48. | |
the one way Gingrich was telling us that Romney was the worst candidate | :20:48. | :20:58. | |
possible, and in the end, it ended with "and he speaks French!". | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
LAUGHTER what more do you want? Jon Huntsman speaks Chinese. It is | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
not just speaking French but foreign languages which is dubious. | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
When you are from Europe it looks so silly. To me it is not serious, | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
the US primaries, and besides, as he was saying, a Obama book will be | :21:18. | :21:25. | |
re-elected, thank God. Is he? to delight for parade of Republican | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
fruitcakes exposed to the world -- delight for parade. You couldn't | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
hope for a better row of complete lunatics. Terrifying, and you are | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
not quite sure if you want to Democrat to win, where the want the | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
very maddest of them to be selected to make them least electable, or | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
whether horror of horrors, Newt Gingrich might wonder -- end up in | :21:46. | :21:53. | |
the White House which is terrifying. At this time in the world economy. | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
It has been one of the moments of the greatest division across the | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
Atlantic between Europe and America, way you look at American elections | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
with fascinated horror -- where you look. We push ourselves a little | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
bit closer as we spend more and more on elections, but the idea of | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
that kind of attack advertising, spending millions on it, that is | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
not the European way yet. We in the Middle-East including Iran and | :22:21. | :22:28. | |
Israel as well, not only that, find these campaigns always through the | :22:28. | :22:34. | |
eyes of, if you like, US-Israel, Basie ambitions rather than the | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
money spent. Newt Gingrich said the Palestinians were... He cancelled | :22:39. | :22:46. | |
them totally, how can you cancel an issue? That is lunatic, in a way. | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
And then Romney In response said, in his first ever visit overseas if | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
he is elected said it would be to Israel. You know, to campaign on | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
this basis, to induce boats, is totally ridiculous, as the Arab | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
people see it -- induce boats so for the Middle-East, the focus of | :23:10. | :23:18. | |
that, they feel better with Obama, even though he has done nothing yet. | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
Does a barman need to shake things up? As you say, the economy may be | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
the determinant -- a bummer. Some people may feel Joe Bighton as | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
vice-president has been dull and it is time to move him on. We know | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
Hillary Clinton doesn't want to stay at the State Department. She | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
would be the perfect vice- presidential candidate, wouldn't | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
she? She would, I think she has more of a job now than she would as | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
vice-president. Normally, that is the job we were waiting for the | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
White House. Hopefully by the election, but Hillary Clinton will | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
be pushing 70 if she's so says vice-president in a bomber's second | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
term. -- if she serves as vice- president in President Obama's | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
second term. She may be wondering if she can make a bigger mark as | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
Secretary of State or vice- president. The current vice- | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
president's experience would suggest that Secretary of State is | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
better. The other interesting story this week was, who pays what in tax, | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
given the amount that they earn, which is quite astonishing given | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
Weir had been talking about bad as bonuses and what is fair and unfair | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
-- given we have been talking. will be disastrous for Romney when | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
we come to the real election campaign to have paid 13 per cent | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
on $45 million, 13 per cent, while every hard-working family in | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
America pays their proper taxes up front. I think that will be a fatal | :24:49. | :24:56. | |
blow, particularly at this particular stand by -- time, a time | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
of... Americans may be feeling they celebrate the rich, but not at this | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
time. But is it for Dateline London this week. We're back Centre next | :25:04. | :25:08. |