17/03/2012 Dateline London

Criminal Court for crimes committed during the uprising. There will be

a full news bulletin at one o'clock. Hello and welcome to Dateline

London. The relationship between Britain and the United States - is

it in any way special? Another week of tragedies in Afghanistan -

should the timetable for withdrawal be speeded up? And another

austerity budget in Britain next week. My guests today are Abdel

Barri Atwan of Al Quds al Arabi, Thomas Kielinger of Die Welt, Janet

Daley of the Sunday Telegraph and Greg Katz of the Associated Press.

One of the rituals of British politics is for the Prime Minister

to go to Washington and be told by an American president that a

special relationship exists between the United States and the United

Kingdom. The words were warm between Barack Obama and David

Cameron this week, but what kind of transatlantic relationship now

exists? And how does it fit in with Britain's other special

relationship - with the European Union? Why did so that Barack Obama

makes such a big fuss this week? thought it was a lot of us a lot of

pomp and circumstance, up the trip to the basketball and the trip in

air Force One. It was a good way to draw attention away from a horrible

events in Afghanistan and the deterioration in Syria. It was a

feel-good meeting ant the weather was beautiful. Washington is

gorgeous at this time of year. David Cameron office enjoyed it.

Clear Telegraph described term as looking like a little child getting

ice-cream. A Barack Obama is entering what is a very close

election. This is a very upbeat event, but it did not capture

America's attention like it did here. Then the need they need

British people took the set on the White House lawn every now and then.

As like a more cynical interpretation. I wonder what

Barack Obama wants from Cameron. There has to be something. This was

sold bizarrely effusive on both sides. The speeches and the toast

of are made at a state dinner were almost on readable. You wondered

what on earth was going on. Cameron gets to parade it around the world

stage almost unnoticed by the American public. I never heard the

term special relationship in America, it is completely unknown

to Americans. Diplomats always say it, please do not say of the

special relationship, police say it out special relationship. Why was

Barack Obama laying it on so heavily? He is a notoriously

unfriendly President towards the British. There are rumours that

because of his Kenyan ancestry, he has reasons to a cheese roll. He

has never been remarkably friendly. He was positively insulting to

Gordon Brown. Why this sudden lavish show of attention? The

suspicion maybe that America is planning to do something serious

about Iran. Big yes. They may be about to do something about Iran

and the need Britain stands by them at the United Nations. So this is

the multilateral approach to Iran. I do not know what is so special in

this special relationship, what Britain is gaining out of the

special relationship? Defeat in Afghanistan, defeat in Iraq and are

coming defeat may be in Iran. What kind of special relationship? It is

a relation between and the master and the little follow-up. But the

little follow were would get intelligence sharing, and a clear

relationship and they have a different relationship from Mr

Starr cosy. Intelligence is important. It is not for the sake

of the British people, not for the sake of the people killed in

Afghanistan, killed in Iraq. Not for the sake of British people who

will be killed if Americans go ahead with their plans to bomb that

Iran and to neutralise its nuclear facilities. Do you think it is

about Iran? Yes, I think it is about Iran. The Defence Minister of

the United States said his real could bomb Iran between April and

June. Barack Obama is trying to stop Israel from bombing Iran at

least for a few months. Britain does get something else. Britain

also regards Iran as a serious threat to its national security.

Let's not debate whether that is accurate, but is certainly the case

that the Foreign Office would feel that. One thing they have in common

is that neither Barack Obama nor Cameron has a high opinion of the

Israeli Prime Minister. Netanyahu is stronger in the United

Nations than Barack Obama himself. It is not Palestine first, it is

Iran first. Barack Obama is following suit. In his speech, he

was bringing the is really, at the Jewish voters and say Iran is very

dangerous, Israel's security is part of American security. Where do

you come down on this? I agree with the Iranian angle on

this. One thing Barack Obama cent that was largely overlooked that

was that the window to solve the Iran crisis is closing, and that is

a clear hint that he anticipates something major to happen. After

the November election. Where they disagree it is set negative opinion

of the special relationship. Barack Obama went further and called it in

essential alliance, which was Gordon Brown trying to go from it

on-target cordiale. They were lying into each other's pockets about the

friendly relationship. Barack Obama is on better ground to refer to it

as a special alliance. I mentioned the European because

there is clearly a relationship between Britain and the EU, but

from Germany's. If you, is it quite good for pro-European interlock

which are to be built on it like this and the White House?

The European Union is not in a position to criticise that

relationship, because we need to get our own house in order. What

kind of strategic alliances Britain have with Europe? The Channel

Tunnel. Tourism and business. There is nothing as close to Europe as

Britain has with America? Do you think that is a mistake? The

tunnel, we all agree, is fantastic. The British close as to Americans?

Have you noticed that that whenever there is a war, there is a trip by

a British Prime Minister to Washington and there is a very warm

talk about this special relationship. I was amazed when a

statement saying that, they agreed that Britain and the United States

could release the strategic oil reserves. It means they are

preparing the ground for a war against Iran, which could be

disastrous. Why are they going to release the oil reserve now it?

think you're saying is through your particular focus of interest. The

Anglo American relationship goes back a long way, and there is a

common sense of democratic values that does not prevail in

continental Europe. The understanding and appreciation of

certain kinds of democratic institution among the English-

speaking nations is very profound and it goes back a long way.

The first thing we have to solve his eye to exit the Afghan war.

We will come back to matter the second. Diesels share the analysis

that Barack Obama is not a natural across the Atlantic? He is at home

with the Pacific. His relationship with Europe has been, let's not

bother with that too much. He has been stand-offish and formal

and he does not look to Paris and Berlin for inspiration or for

history, he looks elsewhere. This thing with Cameron was a makeshift,

it did not have strategic meaning. I do not think it means an attack

on Iran is imminent. The idea that a president would launch a war

before a General Election is senseless, because other elements

are going his way in terms of the economy and so larceny wants to do

is to plunge the world into chaos. An American soldier killing Afghan

civilians - deliberately, or so we are told - comes on top of stories

about American service personnel destroying copies of the Koran. As

we discussed last week after the deaths of six British soldiers -

what really is the point of western forces in Afghanistan? You have

never seen the point of them. hope the actually ended this for a

long time ago. I thought they should pull-out from South than

Stan as soon as possible to save lives, the lives of up understand

people and the lives of British soldiers. We can see it, it is

written on the wall. That damage is going to be a inflicted on the

relations between it Muslim world and Western worlds. For this man to

goal, to leave as well armed camp and go to the village and shoot to

kill 16 people, nine of them children and then burn their

corpses. Before that, me say it is an individual case. It is not

individual. When the urinated on the bodies of the Taliban, of any

burnt the car ran. Have you ever seen a Muslim burning a Bible? Have

you seen a Muslim unit on the dead bodies of Americans are British?

This is the problem, the dehumanisation of others.

Well there have been attacks like 9/11. But we have seen a sink

crimes committed in this will countries.

So far, no Western pilots have flown planes into buildings. It is

absurd to talk about that. They have flown planes to kill innocent

people. A lot of innocent people were killed in 9/11 and b July 7th

bombings here. The point about the Afghan war is as a lot of people

drop parallels with the Vietnam war or in America and here and that is

an unfortunate parallel to be drawn, in the sense that their ball down

in what seems to be an unwinnable fight. That is the only parallel.

In Vietnam, the Americans had gone in unforgivably to try to prevent

the outcome of went democratic election which they did not like.

If they withdraw with -- from Afghanistan they're going to air

Greek civil war. The question is whether we should get out now. In

Germany, the top is, what are we Germans doing risking our lives and

propping up a very corrupt regime? It is all very well to talk after

the event to find out that at is an unwinnable scenario. They agreed

with the NATO force to going there and stave off worst deterioration.

We hope after the exit that we have managed to avoid chaos. There is no

aim left other than avoiding chaos, avoiding civil war. Whether we are

able to do that is another matter. The Germans should not complain

about being there. We agreed voluntarily to help out near fit,

so that America is not seen to be alone, depending on Britain. We

have to sort this out together, we should not scramble for the exit.

That will only give succour to the Everybody agreed to do it because

Al-Queda was -- the Taliban was a cover for are collider. There are

those who think that the war in Afghanistan would be winnable if it

it were not for Iraq. Others think it when they ever have been

winnable. It does not seem winnable now. There is no way you can put a

pleasant face on it. These killings were particularly represent a bog

and will have a lasting effect. When President Karzai it is talking

about confining Americans far base, it will be hard for Obama to say we

are winning this thing while the Americans are despised on the

ground. It is a disaster for all concerned. There are no talks with

the Taliban, I there, apparently. They everything is off. Were it to

end right now, Americans would be remembered as cold-blooded killers.

It is hard to find a middle of the road. This was a Obama's choice

when he came in. He did a six-month review and decided to continue the

war. It was his war. His rationale was, the attacks of 911 came from

bases in Afghanistan so there was a legitimacy to that or which there

never was in a rock -- the attacks of 9/11. It was occupation -- there

never was in Iraq. 3000 people were killed on 11 / 7. That was

unforgivable and forget it -- unforgettable. But 100,000 people

have been killed in Afghanistan. A million people killed in Iraq. What

kind of revenge is this? What kind of mentality is this? For the sake

of taking revenge for 3000 people, you kill a million. You do have to

remember that when Americans came into Kabul originally, people were

cheering them in the streets. There were a lot of Afghans delighted to

get rid of the extremely oppressive Taliban regime. But the oppressive

regime now has embassies in Qatar and Saudi Arabia in order to

facilitate negotiation between the Taliban and the United States.

After 10 years of cheering American troops, now the Americans are

trying to install the Taliban again in power. They are Taliban and

Taliban. They are the same Taliban. R Claydon are still in Afghanistan

and active. What did we achieve after 10 years of bombing? Can I

draw on your expertise? The basis of the war was to destroy the

Taliban, am I right in thinking that the centre of gravity of the

Taliban is no longer there? There are Taliban elements... Surrey, at

the centre of Al-Queda is no longer there. The problem is, when this

was started, there was one address of a play death. The third cave on

the left. Now you have... -- there was one address for Al-Queda. Now

it is in Yemen, and other places. A grey day in Iraq, -- Al-Queda in

Iraq. The American invasion made a played it stronger. Do you agree?

That is what we see before us. But when you eradicate a grey day in

Afghanistan you will create a spawning effect and the ones who

emigrate settle elsewhere -- when you eradicate Alpine leader. I

disagree when you say it was revenge. It was not revenge, the

motive. No, it wasn't. It was trying to get rid of the centre of

evil, Al-Queda in Afghanistan. As you said, quite rightly, it has

allowed them to spawn elsewhere. Whatever the motives, for those

countries who have soldiers in Afghanistan, it must also be very

difficult because the sense of a roll... Of course. -- the sense of

morale. There is a strategic difficulty fog governments deciding

to renounce a deadline whether to pull out because they are pulling

the plug on what will be a civil war. Let us move on. In Britain,

this is a good time to fill up your car and bike wine and cigarettes in

the certain knowledge that these will go up in price after the

Budget. Is the government austerity package working? Why are there not

more jobs? Is now at eight times for higher taxes on the wealthy? I

have never heard that such supposed information about a budget before

it happens. We are awash with speculation. It used to beat that

there was a time when all Treasury ministers were absolutely sworn to

secrecy because the information they had could be market-sensitive

and could create financial scares. Forget are all that. We are now in

a coalition government where there are two parties are effectively

briefing against one another. The Lib Dems are determined to make as

much political capital out of the Budget as possible because they

want to be the nice ones who brought in the raised income tax

threshold for the low-paid and they want to be the ones who opposed all

of the nasty things they claimed the Tories want to do. It is

absolutely impossible to decide what is genuine and what is fiction.

This is Alice in Wonderland. We have passed through the looking-

glass. I use my favourite phrase, the budget is a riddle inside an

enigma wrapped in a mystery. We have an idea about lowering the tax

burden from 50p to 40p... 45p. evidence available does not talk to

continuing with the 50 pence rate. It has not been dented enough tax.

What are the Liberals want in return it is talk about removal of

some of the tax breaks. The problem for all George Osborne up his we

are still all in this together. Or are some people benefiting more

than others? That is a hard thing to sell. I read about a mansion tax,

a tight in tax... A busy, you will be playing that. -- a tycoon tax.

The why are the fat cats not contributing enough to save this

country? Why do we not have taxes on mansions? When you look at the

rich list, there are filthy rich people and. What are they going to

do with the billions? Why don't they help the poor people of this

country? They pay about 70% of all taxes. They are contributing a huge

amount. The difficulty with penalising through wealth taxes,

however repulsive they may seem, is that you actually lose the tax

revenue they pay. I do not just mean through evasion because you

actually reduce their income and reduce the amount of tax they pay.

That is the whole that political tax policy has got us into. I must

say, I cannot make head nor tail of it was up as a journalist, it is

very weird. I would rather find out what the Drifters. Stock up on

everything and wait for Wednesday. -- what the truth is. Part of it is

to do with the coalition government. We have still not got used to that.

The sense of discipline they used to be, that has gone. Also, Nick

Clegg was doing Prime Minister's Question Time with Cameron is in

need States and the US ship went to zero. -- and the number of viewers

went to zero. It still does not answer your question about why

Britain is not producing jobs. That is the key question. You can put it

down to the fact that manufacturing was reduced to such low levels that

it cannot be improved overnight. Germany has a strong manufacturing

sector. I was told last week that Volkswagen workers have been given

a huge bonus because... They had the biggest profit increase last

year was stuck absolutely mind- boggling. The car industry is

actually recovering which I find a bit of an anomaly. So so is it is

not going to save the economy. it is growing quite rapidly. That

is because of the decline of the currency. And the euro area are

buying again. That is going to help. But it is very slow. The general

balance between the public and private sectors is completely

disproportionate. The public sector does not produce wealth. What about

alcohol and cigarette taxes? I am very happy for that. As a good

Muslim, nothing to do with wine, a non-smoker. It would not affect me.

So party-poopers. It all seems quite quaint now. It was always

penny on his ear, it is Super sophisticated fiscal policy that we

are talking about -- penny on a beer. This will have huge

implications if the Chancellor is serious about changing public

sector pay rates in poorer parts of the country so they are paid less

in effect. Every political party for the last generation has wanted

to get rid of national wage bargaining. It is crazy. If you are

a teacher in it somewhere that is not particularly wealthy, you would

not earn as much as a teacher doing the same job in London. The point

is, it is very hard for the private sector to compete with the public

sector. You cannot create jobs in these private sector in places

where people are getting huge wagers relatively speaking in the

public sector. Recent figures show that the reduction in public

employment has been made up by at 45,000 gained through the private

sector. Somewhere, the private sector is gaining. But they still

could not compete on wages. What amazes me, you want to us revive

the private sector, but it should not be on the account of poor

people and poor areas. That is what amazes me. The poor have to survive.