Browse content similar to 23/06/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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against Italy tomorrow. The winner will face Germany in the semi- | :00:02. | :00:12. | |
:00:12. | :00:29. | ||
finals. Welcome to decline London. Is it | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
immoral to pay as little tax as legally necessary? This week is the | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
last chance to see the euro, and are we witnessing not democracy in | :00:39. | :00:49. | |
:00:49. | :00:49. | ||
Egypt, but a slow takeover by the Miller Terry gym -- a slowed | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
takeover by the military. A well-known British entertainer | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
and comedian Jimmy Carter was revealed to have been involved in | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
an ingenious and legal tax avoidance scheme through which in - | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
- through which he saved millions of pounds in tax. David -- David | :01:07. | :01:15. | |
Cameron called it morally wrong. Is it morally wrong to avoid paying | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
tax? Is it politically daft of the Prime Minister to mention this when | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
several but Conservative Party donors also pay very little impact? | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
We are not the morality police, but is it a good idea for politicians | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
to talk about morally wrong in this situation? It is difficult. David | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
Cameron was away from home at the Mexico summit. When you are always | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
you kind of mess the steps sometimes and perhaps he should not | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
have done it. He was at a press conference and asked about it. He | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
responded, in fairness to David Cameron, since no one else has been | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
fair to him on this, he was asked about the comedian who made a big | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
thing about mucking Barclays Bank about their tax-avoidance scams, so | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
in a way it was it an easy mark. People then say, what about | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
entertainers to support the Conservative Party? What about your | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
father? David Cameron's father was a man with great physical | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
deformities who overcame things and made a great amount of money. I am | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
puzzled by the rich, they seem to think they do they can take it with | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
them, that when they get to heaven or the other place that they can | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
open an offshore account. I prefer Warren buffet to said that he gave | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
his children enough so that they could do anything they want in life, | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
except nothing at all. And Andrew Carnegie, he said that the man who | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
dies rich dies disgraced. That is clearly what build great -- what | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
Bill Gates thinks, and Warren buffet it has given his money to | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
Bill Gates to give it away. We're quoting all these famous Americans, | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
let's not forget the honour Helmsley. She said that taxes are | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
for the little people. That is why people get upset. Especially when | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
the recession seemed to be for the little people as well. People are | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
particularly hurting. There is a changing morality. We are paying | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
off their debts anyway. The few years ago it was possible for a | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
Labour politician to say that they are relaxed and earning a lot of | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
money because the economy was doing well. In hard times, that is the | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
difficult message to send. It is, and a bracelet, morality is an | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
important issue here. But it is kind of a side issue. The real | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
issue is the tax code. In other words, as a Government, if you set | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
the speed limit at 200 mph and you can travel in both directions on | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
the motorway, something is going to happen. And yes, people who are in | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
accidents bear some responsibility, but the laws should not allow for | :03:46. | :03:55. | |
this kind of chicanery. Indeed, Greece is also, yes, she we go | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
again. Let's put it this way, tax- efficient schemes for some of the | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
rich people which these and many of the other politicians have said, | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
this is terrible. Some of their rich people to not be enough. | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
have been getting back inside Greece and what we have been | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
getting from outside Greece is that nobody pays tax. I think what we | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
are seeing here is that... Morality is a very tricky concept in | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
politics but it is coming up more and more. We have had Mario Monte | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
saying this week that countries that behave well should be rewarded | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
with loans. We have fiscal austerity that his income to be | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
seen as a moral choice rather than an intellectual choice. What we | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
have here in Britain with this Government is increasingly this | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
sense that there is one law for the rich and another for the poor. When | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
you have all of these complaints about benefit fraud and people on | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
disability benefit being checked out and Michael Gove's scheme to | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
bring back the old O-levels and CSE schemes so there is one set of | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
exams for middle class clever people and another for everyone | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
else, you get into a pit of the eight... He is allowed to disagree | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
but we will speak to him in a minute. One thing we have learned | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
is that morality and politics do not mix. I find it extremely odd to | :05:15. | :05:22. | |
see politicians talking about morality. Especially over tax. At | :05:22. | :05:30. | |
the end of the day, it was politicians who produced these | :05:30. | :05:40. | |
:05:40. | :05:42. | ||
schemes on behalf of the more they asked,no, what happens in the | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
Treasury is that they fight a permanent war against illegal tax | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
evasion and awful but this Honourable tax-avoidance. Some of | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
it, not all that, but some people who give money to charity are | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
avoiding paying tax. They find that when the shut down one loophole, | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
and clever accountants and clever lawyer's just devise a new one. The | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
London Times has had a whole expose about using a film scheme devised | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
by the Labour finance minister Gordon Brown a few years ago to | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
help people invest. Could this explain why there are so many | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
rubbish British films around? could be! But we are talking about | :06:19. | :06:26. | |
real sums here. At this is wrong and immoral and inefficient. But | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
citizens have a duty to pay their way. Money is making the point that | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
affect a lot people, what is the politics of rich and poor. That is | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
the politics we are in now, isn't it? Some politicians believe that | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
the next election will be won by the squeeze Middle, the middle | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
classes to look at the rich and thick, you are getting away with it, | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
and those at the bottom thinking, you are getting away with it. | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
important to hold the line and it is very important that we do not | :06:55. | :07:01. | |
believe everything we read about people not paying tax. We do not | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
want to go down the road of people not paying the tax. It rots the | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
Bonn society. The squeeze Middle are being squeezed, but so were the | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
poor. Am happy to say that British tax authorities have signalled that | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
they are coming after these schemes at these people may end up paying | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
twice the amount of money they thought they had saved in fancy tax | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
avoidance schemes. But the politics of this for David Cameron, as | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
Michael Wright he said, he was asked the question and answer it | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
honestly, but the politics of it are not very good and it comes | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
after a whole string of things that. Up to the class issue in Britain | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
which can be very dangerous for David Cameron. The last time and | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
was on this programme we were talking about a previous series of | :07:46. | :07:55. | |
Government mess up. The pass the tax, the granny tax. Has Michael | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
Rose, the Conservatives, and you would know the what precisely I am | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
sure, but the Conservatives would say that we are not the party that | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
the people of, of they are the party that the people want to | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
govern because we are competent. But if you lose the competence then | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
you are really in trouble. The they are really lucky that the election | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
is three years away. Are they are losing it? People say it all the | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
time, the worst week in the history of the Government, which is every | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
week. I had a feeling that nobody in journalism under 50 should be | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
allowed to use the word unprecedented, there should be a | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
ban on it. Part of the Leveson inquiry into the press, they have | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
had a very rough few months and you do worry that David Cameron does | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
not have enough grip. On the other hand, he is dealing with the | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
coalition, that is the voters for, not his. It is tricky territory. | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
Where do you see the politics of rich and poor, which some people | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
believe is a really important issue for the next election, because of | :08:58. | :09:03. | |
the procession and austerity. interesting to see David Cameron | :09:03. | :09:12. | |
talking about that, and many people believe that at the end of the day, | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
why is he making these comments at this time now? From the political | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
point of view, it is not the winning issue as far as he is | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
consent. Especially when as far as people have been suggesting, if | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
there are loopholes than it is the tax inspector's responsibility to | :09:32. | :09:41. | |
close them. There are thousands of people like Jimmy Carr who are | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
committing this offence, if you like, model of fines. It is not | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
illegal. So it is not only one man, and the majority of these people | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
believe that they belong to the Conservatives. I want to wrap this | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
up, but people do not, of their nature, volunteer generally to pay | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
more tax than they need to. Otherwise they would not go on | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
booze cruises to buy cheap wine and cigarettes or actually make pension | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
provisions when they can save money on their tax. Everyone filling in | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
their tax return is going to try it pay as little tax as they can, but | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
there is a structural inequality here when people with large sums of | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
money can pay fancy accountants to come up with schemes like the one | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
that Jimmy Park was in and saw people with a large bit of money | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
get to avoid paying a large percentage of their income in tax. | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
Let's move on, creased and has a Government that is committed to | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
staying in the euro. -- Greece has the Government. Every time the euro | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
question seems to be sold, the market's changed the question. Now | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
it is Spain and Italy in the firing line. His the Euros saveable? | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
am so fed up with this. What I am fed up with his that Greece was at | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
the beginning scene is the reason for the crisis, the cause of the | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
crisis. Then they became the victims of the crisis, and I have | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
gone to the point where I cannot bear turning on the television and | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
seeing another photograph of Greeks are queuing at sit kitchens. It | :11:17. | :11:26. | |
becomes a kind of pornography of suffering. I cannot bear the words | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
Grace. Then it was like the whole Eurozone hangs on the great | :11:31. | :11:38. | |
question. They cannot move increase for BBC cameras. It does not depend | :11:38. | :11:44. | |
on Greece, it depends on and John their coal and on the European | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
Commission, they are the ones making the decisions. -- it depends | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
on Angela Merkel. People are looking for the best solution to | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
this and Angela Merkel goes on about this, more Europe, but beer | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
and being a slow bowler, is this not just the fundamental flaw in | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
the whole European project? People are voting for national interest | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
because that is what the voters want and so to do a better solution | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
it will not work. 15 years ago, the Germans and French decided on a pet | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
project, the currency. Some of us said that he cannot have currency | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
without the Government, and that is what this is about. The talk now | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
about having a banking and political union, a fiscal union, in | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
other words to have puzzled look at your budget. They are already | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
looking at the creek budget to say, hey, you cannot do that. Because we | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
are funding at the end of the day. They have gone it back to front, in | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
my opinion. The Greeks are part of it, because if they're going to cut | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
a deal, the Greeks must keep to their side of the deal and the | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
worry about Mr Samaranch is that he has a record as foreign minister | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
among other things of playing to the galley and not sticking by the | :12:58. | :13:07. | |
deals that he makes in Brussels. Unlike our politicians! He is a | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
real flip-flop. He was at a memorandum, then he was pro | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
memorandum. Then he thought he might win it at a point where it | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
was a tricky time to have an election. I completely agree with | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
you, but here is a deal that was cut under tremendous pressure and | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
that has failed. The austerity programme is not working and not | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
only because Greece has not implemented the structural reforms, | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
but it is not working because it is the wrong recipe. In the large | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
scheme of things, that is part of it. Greece did not live up to their | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
side of that idea, but other people do not, either. For Greece, | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
contagion is the word. If Greece believes, then the market will say, | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
anyone can leave. As William Hague put it, this is the burning | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
building from which there are no exits. The whole thing could | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
collapse. That is the problem. not think so. I think that Greece | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
could leave, I think that could happen. I do not think it will | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
happen anytime soon, there is no reason why it could not happen. | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
Technically, it can happen. But TCC the permanent frustration of voters | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
from increased to Britain and Germany who look at leaders getting | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
together, or when there was a summit of the bed for a few days | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
ago, and there has been the European summit next week, and yet | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
nothing seemed to happen. What the journalist say is that the can has | :14:31. | :14:41. | |
:14:41. | :14:41. | ||
The counter argument would be that it is better that nothing happens | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
then there is a real meltdown, where people throughout Europe are | :14:46. | :14:53. | |
taking their money out of banks. is happening. They are moving into | :14:53. | :15:01. | |
German banks. Spain is the critical one. But that is the rational move, | :15:01. | :15:11. | |
:15:11. | :15:12. | ||
isn't it? It is rational but it is quite fit -- quite dangerous. | :15:12. | :15:19. | |
seems to me that people do not accept the fact that this is a | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
European crisis, not a Greek crisis. This is a European crisis, not one | :15:25. | :15:34. | |
country. I find it personally odd how five countries came together in | :15:34. | :15:42. | |
the middle of the 1950s and agreed on a joint policy which grew into a | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
common market and all of that. Of course they had reasons for that, | :15:45. | :15:52. | |
that war and everything, and also to prosper. When it is good time | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
you get together and work together but when it is a bad time you don't | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
get together and work together. That is the bizarre thing. This is | :16:03. | :16:10. | |
fostering of nationalism, which is countered to the original project. | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
To be fair to Angela Merkel, she has been fairly consistent, | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
actually. Also, she has said, my back pockets are not bottomless, | :16:21. | :16:31. | |
:16:31. | :16:31. | ||
and she has tried to impose criteria on membership that should | :16:31. | :16:40. | |
have been imposed previously. -- our pockets. Her predecessors did | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
break the rules but she has not. How could they have imposed these | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
rules to begin with? You had these widely divergent economies which | :16:50. | :16:59. | |
were supposed to divert -- to converge as this -- as if by magic. | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
A country like Turkey for example are sane, thank God we have not | :17:05. | :17:15. | |
:17:15. | :17:15. | ||
joined. -- same. -- same. Britain has more wealth than Turkey, Turkey | :17:15. | :17:22. | |
is half the size, less than Spain as an economy. They are thinking, | :17:22. | :17:31. | |
thank God. But the consequences will affect Britain. And Turkey and | :17:31. | :17:39. | |
the United States. Europe is the United States'' largest trading | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
partner. That is Waikiki it down the road may be a lot better than | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
some other things. -- kicking. people across the Arab world looked | :17:49. | :17:58. | |
to Egypt as the biggest and most prosperous country. The election is | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
of importance across the region and therefore across the world. Is | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
Egypt slipping back from the path of democracy? It doesn't look very | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
good, does it? You effectively have military control and no real signs | :18:11. | :18:20. | |
that they want to give it up at any time soon. The military have a kind | :18:20. | :18:30. | |
:18:30. | :18:33. | ||
of silent coup, but really everything is on a slow-burn or. It | :18:33. | :18:42. | |
will not necessarily kill democracy. Some people are calling, -- calling | :18:42. | :18:48. | |
it, and I tend to believe in it, it is slow-motion movement towards | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
democracy. People are learning every day. You are talking about an | :18:52. | :19:02. | |
:19:02. | :19:06. | ||
Asian which -- a nation which has had no democracy at any time. | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
People have been asked to vote in five times in 15 months, this is a | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
great shift. When I have talked to Egyptian friends in the past, they | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
had said, we are optimistic in the long-term because there is clearly | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
an appetite for democracy and people are happy to vote and they | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
do so largely peacefully. Although there is great annoyance, they are | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
still accepting the system broadly, is that fair? It is, but one | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
element is always forgotten. The social coherence of the Egyptian | :19:44. | :19:54. | |
:19:54. | :19:55. | ||
society. And they are known for taking things in their stride. | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
Talking about the presidential result, which has not been declared | :19:59. | :20:09. | |
:20:09. | :20:11. | ||
yet, people are saying, let's have them both! Wide just have one? We | :20:11. | :20:21. | |
:20:21. | :20:22. | ||
have each for three days and on the 7th day we protest. This is the | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
mood. Another one says an old man ride it -- rides his donkey to the | :20:28. | :20:38. | |
:20:38. | :20:38. | ||
polling station. He says, I want to vote for Shafique, the old general, | :20:38. | :20:45. | |
and my donkey will vote for the other guy. Do people underestimate | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
just how difficult it is? We are used to democracy going back | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
hundreds of years and Egypt is creating its first democracy in | :20:55. | :21:03. | |
7,000 years. I think that foreign powers actually do recognise this. | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
As this has been going on, since the vote, Hillary Clinton has come | :21:10. | :21:16. | |
out and said, Look, we want the military to continue movement | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
towards democracy. But most countries, the EU, America, have | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
sat back and seemed -- seemed unwilling to wait. They may have | :21:26. | :21:36. | |
:21:36. | :21:42. | ||
been sensing some of that optimism. -- seemed to win. -- Gwilym. It is | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
not easy to absorb having be a Muslim Brotherhood in the country. | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
Change takes a long time and it is really slow. In Europe we are | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
having this incredible pressure to change things by yesterday, which | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
is just not possible. Looking as an outsider at Egypt, knowing how | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
incredibly complex it must be, all of these different movements that | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
came into the larger movement and how they can negotiate things | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
between the Mall, that is actually true of every country. Between them | :22:17. | :22:25. | |
all. Those things are invisible to journalism most of the time and | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
invisible to electoral politics. is really good to hear optimism in | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
this context. I am not a specialist in Egypt but, as a political | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
reporter, you think, I don't like the idea of polarisation, the | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
choice between the general and the Muslim Brotherhood. The Moslem | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
Brotherhood have been talking a respectable game, so yes it does | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
take time. Turnout seems to be falling in these elections. | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
Democracy is sold as a panacea when it is really about hard work. The | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
question always is, with military regimes who promise to reform, do | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
they really mean it or are they fight think the old battles by | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
another form? Mustapha, I just wanted to bring him up Syria and | :23:16. | :23:22. | |
the shooting down of this Turkish plane. How do you see that in the | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
politics of the region? This is an interesting development and totally | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
different from everything else we have seen. The way it looks from | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
both sides, especially from the Turkish side, the President said | :23:40. | :23:49. | |
this morning that the pilot may have strayed into Syrian territory, | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
which means that there is no drive to escalate the issue after this | :23:55. | :24:05. | |
:24:05. | :24:10. | ||
incident. Her prior to the crisis, the Turks used to if -- to inform | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
Syria in advance but maybe that pilots would cross Syrian airspace. | :24:15. | :24:25. | |
:24:25. | :24:28. | ||
-- that may be. But it seems to be, let's talk it over, not escalate. | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
Maria, this kind of thing does happen quite a lot. In happens all | :24:33. | :24:41. | |
the time and planes don't usually get shot down. -- it happens. | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
Presumably as Mustapha indicates there is no particular reason for | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
this to escalate. Yes, we are always worried about people | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
ratcheting up the tension and the stakes are much too high for an | :24:54. | :25:03. | |
accident like this. Accidents can cause wars, we know this. As far as | :25:03. | :25:09. | |
Syria is concerned, and Egypt as well, it is slow motion towards | :25:09. | :25:16. | |
democracy. Unfortunately, in the general picture for serious it is | :25:16. | :25:24. | |
slow motion towards civil war, I'm afraid. That is probably why | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
everybody has taken the incident yesterday of shooting down this jet, | :25:31. | :25:38. | |
let's not escalated because nobody is ready to take a higher position. | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
That is where it is escalating, at home. Now you have outsiders, who | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
at one point were hoping for a political solution, now giving arms | :25:49. | :25:53. |