23/06/2012 Dateline London


23/06/2012

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against Italy tomorrow. The winner will face Germany in the semi-

:00:02.:00:12.
:00:12.:00:29.

finals. Welcome to decline London. Is it

:00:29.:00:35.

immoral to pay as little tax as legally necessary? This week is the

:00:35.:00:39.

last chance to see the euro, and are we witnessing not democracy in

:00:39.:00:49.
:00:49.:00:49.

Egypt, but a slow takeover by the Miller Terry gym -- a slowed

:00:49.:00:55.

takeover by the military. A well-known British entertainer

:00:55.:00:57.

and comedian Jimmy Carter was revealed to have been involved in

:00:57.:01:02.

an ingenious and legal tax avoidance scheme through which in -

:01:02.:01:07.

- through which he saved millions of pounds in tax. David -- David

:01:07.:01:15.

Cameron called it morally wrong. Is it morally wrong to avoid paying

:01:15.:01:19.

tax? Is it politically daft of the Prime Minister to mention this when

:01:19.:01:22.

several but Conservative Party donors also pay very little impact?

:01:22.:01:26.

We are not the morality police, but is it a good idea for politicians

:01:26.:01:31.

to talk about morally wrong in this situation? It is difficult. David

:01:31.:01:37.

Cameron was away from home at the Mexico summit. When you are always

:01:37.:01:40.

you kind of mess the steps sometimes and perhaps he should not

:01:40.:01:45.

have done it. He was at a press conference and asked about it. He

:01:45.:01:48.

responded, in fairness to David Cameron, since no one else has been

:01:48.:01:53.

fair to him on this, he was asked about the comedian who made a big

:01:53.:01:57.

thing about mucking Barclays Bank about their tax-avoidance scams, so

:01:57.:02:02.

in a way it was it an easy mark. People then say, what about

:02:02.:02:05.

entertainers to support the Conservative Party? What about your

:02:05.:02:09.

father? David Cameron's father was a man with great physical

:02:09.:02:15.

deformities who overcame things and made a great amount of money. I am

:02:16.:02:19.

puzzled by the rich, they seem to think they do they can take it with

:02:19.:02:22.

them, that when they get to heaven or the other place that they can

:02:22.:02:27.

open an offshore account. I prefer Warren buffet to said that he gave

:02:27.:02:31.

his children enough so that they could do anything they want in life,

:02:31.:02:36.

except nothing at all. And Andrew Carnegie, he said that the man who

:02:36.:02:41.

dies rich dies disgraced. That is clearly what build great -- what

:02:41.:02:44.

Bill Gates thinks, and Warren buffet it has given his money to

:02:44.:02:49.

Bill Gates to give it away. We're quoting all these famous Americans,

:02:49.:02:53.

let's not forget the honour Helmsley. She said that taxes are

:02:53.:02:58.

for the little people. That is why people get upset. Especially when

:02:58.:03:02.

the recession seemed to be for the little people as well. People are

:03:02.:03:06.

particularly hurting. There is a changing morality. We are paying

:03:06.:03:12.

off their debts anyway. The few years ago it was possible for a

:03:12.:03:15.

Labour politician to say that they are relaxed and earning a lot of

:03:15.:03:19.

money because the economy was doing well. In hard times, that is the

:03:19.:03:23.

difficult message to send. It is, and a bracelet, morality is an

:03:23.:03:27.

important issue here. But it is kind of a side issue. The real

:03:27.:03:32.

issue is the tax code. In other words, as a Government, if you set

:03:32.:03:37.

the speed limit at 200 mph and you can travel in both directions on

:03:37.:03:41.

the motorway, something is going to happen. And yes, people who are in

:03:41.:03:46.

accidents bear some responsibility, but the laws should not allow for

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this kind of chicanery. Indeed, Greece is also, yes, she we go

:03:55.:04:00.

again. Let's put it this way, tax- efficient schemes for some of the

:04:00.:04:03.

rich people which these and many of the other politicians have said,

:04:03.:04:07.

this is terrible. Some of their rich people to not be enough.

:04:07.:04:10.

have been getting back inside Greece and what we have been

:04:10.:04:15.

getting from outside Greece is that nobody pays tax. I think what we

:04:15.:04:20.

are seeing here is that... Morality is a very tricky concept in

:04:20.:04:26.

politics but it is coming up more and more. We have had Mario Monte

:04:26.:04:29.

saying this week that countries that behave well should be rewarded

:04:29.:04:33.

with loans. We have fiscal austerity that his income to be

:04:33.:04:39.

seen as a moral choice rather than an intellectual choice. What we

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have here in Britain with this Government is increasingly this

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sense that there is one law for the rich and another for the poor. When

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you have all of these complaints about benefit fraud and people on

:04:49.:04:53.

disability benefit being checked out and Michael Gove's scheme to

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bring back the old O-levels and CSE schemes so there is one set of

:04:58.:05:00.

exams for middle class clever people and another for everyone

:05:01.:05:06.

else, you get into a pit of the eight... He is allowed to disagree

:05:06.:05:10.

but we will speak to him in a minute. One thing we have learned

:05:10.:05:15.

is that morality and politics do not mix. I find it extremely odd to

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see politicians talking about morality. Especially over tax. At

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the end of the day, it was politicians who produced these

:05:30.:05:40.
:05:40.:05:42.

schemes on behalf of the more they asked,no, what happens in the

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Treasury is that they fight a permanent war against illegal tax

:05:46.:05:49.

evasion and awful but this Honourable tax-avoidance. Some of

:05:49.:05:53.

it, not all that, but some people who give money to charity are

:05:53.:05:57.

avoiding paying tax. They find that when the shut down one loophole,

:05:57.:06:02.

and clever accountants and clever lawyer's just devise a new one. The

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London Times has had a whole expose about using a film scheme devised

:06:06.:06:10.

by the Labour finance minister Gordon Brown a few years ago to

:06:10.:06:14.

help people invest. Could this explain why there are so many

:06:14.:06:19.

rubbish British films around? could be! But we are talking about

:06:19.:06:26.

real sums here. At this is wrong and immoral and inefficient. But

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citizens have a duty to pay their way. Money is making the point that

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affect a lot people, what is the politics of rich and poor. That is

:06:34.:06:38.

the politics we are in now, isn't it? Some politicians believe that

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the next election will be won by the squeeze Middle, the middle

:06:41.:06:45.

classes to look at the rich and thick, you are getting away with it,

:06:45.:06:48.

and those at the bottom thinking, you are getting away with it.

:06:49.:06:55.

important to hold the line and it is very important that we do not

:06:55.:07:01.

believe everything we read about people not paying tax. We do not

:07:01.:07:06.

want to go down the road of people not paying the tax. It rots the

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Bonn society. The squeeze Middle are being squeezed, but so were the

:07:10.:07:15.

poor. Am happy to say that British tax authorities have signalled that

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they are coming after these schemes at these people may end up paying

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twice the amount of money they thought they had saved in fancy tax

:07:21.:07:27.

avoidance schemes. But the politics of this for David Cameron, as

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Michael Wright he said, he was asked the question and answer it

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honestly, but the politics of it are not very good and it comes

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after a whole string of things that. Up to the class issue in Britain

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which can be very dangerous for David Cameron. The last time and

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was on this programme we were talking about a previous series of

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Government mess up. The pass the tax, the granny tax. Has Michael

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Rose, the Conservatives, and you would know the what precisely I am

:07:58.:08:03.

sure, but the Conservatives would say that we are not the party that

:08:03.:08:06.

the people of, of they are the party that the people want to

:08:06.:08:10.

govern because we are competent. But if you lose the competence then

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you are really in trouble. The they are really lucky that the election

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is three years away. Are they are losing it? People say it all the

:08:21.:08:26.

time, the worst week in the history of the Government, which is every

:08:26.:08:29.

week. I had a feeling that nobody in journalism under 50 should be

:08:29.:08:33.

allowed to use the word unprecedented, there should be a

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ban on it. Part of the Leveson inquiry into the press, they have

:08:38.:08:42.

had a very rough few months and you do worry that David Cameron does

:08:42.:08:46.

not have enough grip. On the other hand, he is dealing with the

:08:46.:08:51.

coalition, that is the voters for, not his. It is tricky territory.

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Where do you see the politics of rich and poor, which some people

:08:55.:08:58.

believe is a really important issue for the next election, because of

:08:58.:09:03.

the procession and austerity. interesting to see David Cameron

:09:03.:09:12.

talking about that, and many people believe that at the end of the day,

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why is he making these comments at this time now? From the political

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point of view, it is not the winning issue as far as he is

:09:22.:09:28.

consent. Especially when as far as people have been suggesting, if

:09:28.:09:32.

there are loopholes than it is the tax inspector's responsibility to

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close them. There are thousands of people like Jimmy Carr who are

:09:41.:09:45.

committing this offence, if you like, model of fines. It is not

:09:45.:09:53.

illegal. So it is not only one man, and the majority of these people

:09:53.:09:57.

believe that they belong to the Conservatives. I want to wrap this

:09:57.:10:02.

up, but people do not, of their nature, volunteer generally to pay

:10:02.:10:07.

more tax than they need to. Otherwise they would not go on

:10:07.:10:12.

booze cruises to buy cheap wine and cigarettes or actually make pension

:10:12.:10:16.

provisions when they can save money on their tax. Everyone filling in

:10:17.:10:20.

their tax return is going to try it pay as little tax as they can, but

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there is a structural inequality here when people with large sums of

:10:24.:10:27.

money can pay fancy accountants to come up with schemes like the one

:10:27.:10:33.

that Jimmy Park was in and saw people with a large bit of money

:10:33.:10:36.

get to avoid paying a large percentage of their income in tax.

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Let's move on, creased and has a Government that is committed to

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staying in the euro. -- Greece has the Government. Every time the euro

:10:45.:10:49.

question seems to be sold, the market's changed the question. Now

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it is Spain and Italy in the firing line. His the Euros saveable?

:10:56.:11:01.

am so fed up with this. What I am fed up with his that Greece was at

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the beginning scene is the reason for the crisis, the cause of the

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crisis. Then they became the victims of the crisis, and I have

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gone to the point where I cannot bear turning on the television and

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seeing another photograph of Greeks are queuing at sit kitchens. It

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becomes a kind of pornography of suffering. I cannot bear the words

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Grace. Then it was like the whole Eurozone hangs on the great

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question. They cannot move increase for BBC cameras. It does not depend

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on Greece, it depends on and John their coal and on the European

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Commission, they are the ones making the decisions. -- it depends

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on Angela Merkel. People are looking for the best solution to

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this and Angela Merkel goes on about this, more Europe, but beer

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and being a slow bowler, is this not just the fundamental flaw in

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the whole European project? People are voting for national interest

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because that is what the voters want and so to do a better solution

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it will not work. 15 years ago, the Germans and French decided on a pet

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project, the currency. Some of us said that he cannot have currency

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without the Government, and that is what this is about. The talk now

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about having a banking and political union, a fiscal union, in

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other words to have puzzled look at your budget. They are already

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looking at the creek budget to say, hey, you cannot do that. Because we

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are funding at the end of the day. They have gone it back to front, in

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my opinion. The Greeks are part of it, because if they're going to cut

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a deal, the Greeks must keep to their side of the deal and the

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worry about Mr Samaranch is that he has a record as foreign minister

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among other things of playing to the galley and not sticking by the

:12:58.:13:07.

deals that he makes in Brussels. Unlike our politicians! He is a

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real flip-flop. He was at a memorandum, then he was pro

:13:11.:13:15.

memorandum. Then he thought he might win it at a point where it

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was a tricky time to have an election. I completely agree with

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you, but here is a deal that was cut under tremendous pressure and

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that has failed. The austerity programme is not working and not

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only because Greece has not implemented the structural reforms,

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but it is not working because it is the wrong recipe. In the large

:13:33.:13:37.

scheme of things, that is part of it. Greece did not live up to their

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side of that idea, but other people do not, either. For Greece,

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contagion is the word. If Greece believes, then the market will say,

:13:47.:13:51.

anyone can leave. As William Hague put it, this is the burning

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building from which there are no exits. The whole thing could

:13:55.:14:00.

collapse. That is the problem. not think so. I think that Greece

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could leave, I think that could happen. I do not think it will

:14:04.:14:07.

happen anytime soon, there is no reason why it could not happen.

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Technically, it can happen. But TCC the permanent frustration of voters

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from increased to Britain and Germany who look at leaders getting

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together, or when there was a summit of the bed for a few days

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ago, and there has been the European summit next week, and yet

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nothing seemed to happen. What the journalist say is that the can has

:14:31.:14:41.
:14:41.:14:41.

The counter argument would be that it is better that nothing happens

:14:41.:14:46.

then there is a real meltdown, where people throughout Europe are

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taking their money out of banks. is happening. They are moving into

:14:53.:15:01.

German banks. Spain is the critical one. But that is the rational move,

:15:01.:15:11.
:15:11.:15:12.

isn't it? It is rational but it is quite fit -- quite dangerous.

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seems to me that people do not accept the fact that this is a

:15:19.:15:25.

European crisis, not a Greek crisis. This is a European crisis, not one

:15:25.:15:34.

country. I find it personally odd how five countries came together in

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the middle of the 1950s and agreed on a joint policy which grew into a

:15:42.:15:45.

common market and all of that. Of course they had reasons for that,

:15:45.:15:52.

that war and everything, and also to prosper. When it is good time

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you get together and work together but when it is a bad time you don't

:15:56.:16:03.

get together and work together. That is the bizarre thing. This is

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fostering of nationalism, which is countered to the original project.

:16:10.:16:15.

To be fair to Angela Merkel, she has been fairly consistent,

:16:15.:16:21.

actually. Also, she has said, my back pockets are not bottomless,

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:16:31.:16:31.

and she has tried to impose criteria on membership that should

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have been imposed previously. -- our pockets. Her predecessors did

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break the rules but she has not. How could they have imposed these

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rules to begin with? You had these widely divergent economies which

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were supposed to divert -- to converge as this -- as if by magic.

:16:59.:17:05.

A country like Turkey for example are sane, thank God we have not

:17:05.:17:15.
:17:15.:17:15.

joined. -- same. -- same. Britain has more wealth than Turkey, Turkey

:17:15.:17:22.

is half the size, less than Spain as an economy. They are thinking,

:17:22.:17:31.

thank God. But the consequences will affect Britain. And Turkey and

:17:31.:17:39.

the United States. Europe is the United States'' largest trading

:17:39.:17:43.

partner. That is Waikiki it down the road may be a lot better than

:17:43.:17:49.

some other things. -- kicking. people across the Arab world looked

:17:49.:17:58.

to Egypt as the biggest and most prosperous country. The election is

:17:58.:18:02.

of importance across the region and therefore across the world. Is

:18:02.:18:06.

Egypt slipping back from the path of democracy? It doesn't look very

:18:06.:18:11.

good, does it? You effectively have military control and no real signs

:18:11.:18:20.

that they want to give it up at any time soon. The military have a kind

:18:20.:18:30.
:18:30.:18:33.

of silent coup, but really everything is on a slow-burn or. It

:18:33.:18:42.

will not necessarily kill democracy. Some people are calling, -- calling

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it, and I tend to believe in it, it is slow-motion movement towards

:18:48.:18:52.

democracy. People are learning every day. You are talking about an

:18:52.:19:02.
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Asian which -- a nation which has had no democracy at any time.

:19:06.:19:10.

People have been asked to vote in five times in 15 months, this is a

:19:10.:19:16.

great shift. When I have talked to Egyptian friends in the past, they

:19:16.:19:22.

had said, we are optimistic in the long-term because there is clearly

:19:22.:19:25.

an appetite for democracy and people are happy to vote and they

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do so largely peacefully. Although there is great annoyance, they are

:19:32.:19:38.

still accepting the system broadly, is that fair? It is, but one

:19:38.:19:44.

element is always forgotten. The social coherence of the Egyptian

:19:44.:19:54.
:19:54.:19:55.

society. And they are known for taking things in their stride.

:19:55.:19:59.

Talking about the presidential result, which has not been declared

:19:59.:20:09.
:20:09.:20:11.

yet, people are saying, let's have them both! Wide just have one? We

:20:11.:20:21.
:20:21.:20:22.

have each for three days and on the 7th day we protest. This is the

:20:22.:20:28.

mood. Another one says an old man ride it -- rides his donkey to the

:20:28.:20:38.
:20:38.:20:38.

polling station. He says, I want to vote for Shafique, the old general,

:20:38.:20:45.

and my donkey will vote for the other guy. Do people underestimate

:20:45.:20:50.

just how difficult it is? We are used to democracy going back

:20:51.:20:55.

hundreds of years and Egypt is creating its first democracy in

:20:55.:21:03.

7,000 years. I think that foreign powers actually do recognise this.

:21:03.:21:10.

As this has been going on, since the vote, Hillary Clinton has come

:21:10.:21:16.

out and said, Look, we want the military to continue movement

:21:16.:21:21.

towards democracy. But most countries, the EU, America, have

:21:21.:21:26.

sat back and seemed -- seemed unwilling to wait. They may have

:21:26.:21:36.
:21:36.:21:42.

been sensing some of that optimism. -- seemed to win. -- Gwilym. It is

:21:42.:21:48.

not easy to absorb having be a Muslim Brotherhood in the country.

:21:48.:21:53.

Change takes a long time and it is really slow. In Europe we are

:21:53.:21:57.

having this incredible pressure to change things by yesterday, which

:21:57.:22:03.

is just not possible. Looking as an outsider at Egypt, knowing how

:22:03.:22:07.

incredibly complex it must be, all of these different movements that

:22:07.:22:11.

came into the larger movement and how they can negotiate things

:22:11.:22:17.

between the Mall, that is actually true of every country. Between them

:22:17.:22:25.

all. Those things are invisible to journalism most of the time and

:22:25.:22:30.

invisible to electoral politics. is really good to hear optimism in

:22:30.:22:35.

this context. I am not a specialist in Egypt but, as a political

:22:35.:22:41.

reporter, you think, I don't like the idea of polarisation, the

:22:42.:22:45.

choice between the general and the Muslim Brotherhood. The Moslem

:22:45.:22:51.

Brotherhood have been talking a respectable game, so yes it does

:22:52.:22:56.

take time. Turnout seems to be falling in these elections.

:22:56.:23:01.

Democracy is sold as a panacea when it is really about hard work. The

:23:01.:23:06.

question always is, with military regimes who promise to reform, do

:23:06.:23:10.

they really mean it or are they fight think the old battles by

:23:10.:23:16.

another form? Mustapha, I just wanted to bring him up Syria and

:23:16.:23:22.

the shooting down of this Turkish plane. How do you see that in the

:23:23.:23:28.

politics of the region? This is an interesting development and totally

:23:28.:23:34.

different from everything else we have seen. The way it looks from

:23:34.:23:40.

both sides, especially from the Turkish side, the President said

:23:40.:23:49.

this morning that the pilot may have strayed into Syrian territory,

:23:49.:23:55.

which means that there is no drive to escalate the issue after this

:23:55.:24:05.
:24:05.:24:10.

incident. Her prior to the crisis, the Turks used to if -- to inform

:24:10.:24:15.

Syria in advance but maybe that pilots would cross Syrian airspace.

:24:15.:24:25.
:24:25.:24:28.

-- that may be. But it seems to be, let's talk it over, not escalate.

:24:28.:24:33.

Maria, this kind of thing does happen quite a lot. In happens all

:24:33.:24:41.

the time and planes don't usually get shot down. -- it happens.

:24:41.:24:46.

Presumably as Mustapha indicates there is no particular reason for

:24:46.:24:50.

this to escalate. Yes, we are always worried about people

:24:50.:24:54.

ratcheting up the tension and the stakes are much too high for an

:24:54.:25:03.

accident like this. Accidents can cause wars, we know this. As far as

:25:03.:25:09.

Syria is concerned, and Egypt as well, it is slow motion towards

:25:09.:25:16.

democracy. Unfortunately, in the general picture for serious it is

:25:16.:25:24.

slow motion towards civil war, I'm afraid. That is probably why

:25:24.:25:31.

everybody has taken the incident yesterday of shooting down this jet,

:25:31.:25:38.

let's not escalated because nobody is ready to take a higher position.

:25:38.:25:43.

That is where it is escalating, at home. Now you have outsiders, who

:25:43.:25:49.

at one point were hoping for a political solution, now giving arms

:25:49.:25:53.

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