18/08/2012 Dateline London

web. Go to bbc.co.uk/news and click on the link. There will be a full

news bulletin at one o'clock. Now it's time for Dateline London, live

Hello and welcome to Dateline London. If Julian Assange has

nothing to hide, why is he in hiding? The British economy is

creating jobs during a double dip recession - does anyone know why?

And is the United Nations showing it has not given up on Syria? My

guests today are Mustapha Karkouti, who is a Syrian born journalist

based in the Gulf, Agnes Poirier of the French magazine Marianne, Henry

Chu of the LA Times and Michael White of the Guardian.

The Wikileaks founder Julian Assange is a hero to many people,

but he faces sexual assault charges in Sweden and has taken refuge in

the Embassy of Ecuador in London. British law says he should go to

Sweden to stand trial. What do we make of his refusal to follow the

legal process? There is a conspiracy theory that if he goes

to Sweden, it is the Americans who want them ticket into the United

States and he will receive the light of day, like Bradley Manning.

There are so many issues there, the Swedish allegations have nothing to

do with what is going on and that Julian Assange is a feeling for his

life if he ever gets out at the embassy in London. I don't know, it

seems a bit mad. It has been two months and perhaps he will stay

there for years. It is a prison sentence in a way. The Ecuador

embassy sounds grand, but it is only a flat. He has takeaway

dinners and lunches every day, he cannot exercise and he can say

there for years. What Britain cannot do is to actually storm the

embassy, even though they're used to be three police officers outside

are now there are 50 of them. People are wondering if he will

come out in a box. During the Cold War, we had all these cases, like

the person in Hungary he stayed for 50 years in the American embassy. I

they going to trade political people? There definitely is an

element of the absurd about this. This is an Australian and national

in Britain asking Ecuador for asylum so that he does not face

extradition to Sweden. People have not focused on the fact that

neither its Reagan nor Britain will extradite anyone to a country where

there is a danger of the death penalty, which is what he says he

fears. For at the USA to lay hands on him, it would have been far

easier to do it from Britain. much easier to get people out of

Britain. People say we hand people over too easily, but if he goes to

Sweden, it is much more difficult to get him out. It was said

yesterday, Sweden is being described by Julian Assange's

allies as a close ally of the United States. I would have thought

that description better fitted Britain. I was reading the George

Orwell last night, writing at get out that the Spanish Civil War or,

I warned my readers about might biases. He is entitled to say the

USA won some, they want to throw the book at him just as they do at

hackers in this country. We know Bradley Manning has been very badly

treated. That much I understand. Having said that and admitted it

might biases like George Orwell once as to in journalism, he is

going to Sweden and he does have a case to answer of some form of

sexual assault. You say you are suspicious of Julian Assange. Your

paper published Tories on WikiLeaks, which you thought was a good idea.

USAir berating what he may or may have not done with WikiLeaks.

People who do great things are not always correct people. There was a

background to the embassy thing. The reason they changed the law

about getting into embassies was that a Libyan diplomat shot a

London police woman dead on the streets of Britain at Margaret

Thatcher had to let him go home, where he sellers. There is always a

context for it these things. Yes, mine used it it it it. I thought

the case build a guess what the United States was revealed to have

done, was overstated. They said in private more or less what they said

in public. It was the people we were dealing with who were

embarrassed, who had a very different line in private. Beat

that as it may, my colleagues find Julian Assange a very difficult man

to deal with. There was a lot of tension in the relationship, which

he tried to control. We have not mentioned the women who make the

allegations. He's a very serious allegations and in any modern

society you would expect them to be taken seriously.

Yes, but there is this conspiracy Theory we're talking about. Will he

be tried in court but that case or will he be handed over to the USA?

There is nothing clear there. I was reading the media, everybody is

engaged in at getting him out of the country. The Israelis managed

to a smuggle people out to receive to -- revealed secrets of nuclear

power, smuggled from Italy. He was lured from London to Rome by a

lovely woman and there he was smuggled. There were unusual tough

guys, but they're also very good at it. We're not going to storm the

embassy and it was not really a threat. Will he be smuggled?

No way. They had been negotiating for two months and the story about

storming Embassy, that is not going to happen. Britain is not going to

do this. The Ecuador Government will be very popular. I think

Julian Assange is doing his cause no favours, by a aligning himself

with the Government of a Ecuador, whose president is accused of

cracking down on journalists. Also, the Julian Assange has been given a

-- giving interviews on at Kremlin that Channel in Russia. This is

where we need to be careful about the man. He would say, if the West

shut you down, you go to the people who will give you a platform.

Plenty of people will agree with him. I don't. Good news for the

British Government - unemployment is falling - although the fact that

it is happening during a double dip recession is puzzling economists.

It comes as the US recovery may be faltering, and the Republican

candidate Mitt Romney has picked a conservative who wants to slash

spending and cut taxes as his running mate. Does anyone really

understand how to grow the economy in these hard times? The Bank of

England that made it clear their somewhat puzzled. Don't come to me!

I read the financial pages every day and they're all thrashing

around to. Paul Ryan has been introduced into the American debate.

He is Clear that his record on cuts in Wisconsin is not as good on

paper. Nobody knows. What has happened in Britain, extra jobs,

the economy is flat, but the obvious explanation is the Olympics

give us a psychological boost. A lot of people were employed in the

Olympics in all sorts of ways. Alternatively, it might mean that

the three-quarters of no growth statistics which we have had was

not measuring activity. It is always a problem for economists.

The nature of economic activity changes. A lot of it goes into the

black economy. We do not know what is happening in Britain, but may be

a flat line the economy is not as bad as we thought, because there is

more going on than the economists can capture. When the look at the

example of Britain and the rest of Europe, where there are deep cuts

going on, all of these countries have gone into recession again.

This should not be puzzling to was. In countries where they have tried

stimulants, there is some buoyancy to the economy. It is puzzling when

you have a shrinking economy that is creating jobs. If unemployment

were to go up, then people would say that is what she learned at

school about basic economy its. -- economics. Let's talk about called

Ryan. He has really set the campaign alight, but those of us

with memories stretching back for a year's Remembrance Sarah Palin did

the same thing. John Makin picked Sarah Palin. It was great for a

while, but then it fizzled out. was not fitted well enough and we

saw the consequences of that. But Paul Ryan has strong intellectual

credentials, a strong fan as a head on him and he has presented a very

clear plan that is not necessarily consistent in his voting record. He

has now or presented as a blueprint that is very different which says

we need to cut spending heavily and we need to cut taxes. Again, we

have tried that in the United States, with Ronald Reagan with

heavy tax cuts. We ended up with a huge deficit, even bigger than in

the past. It is not as though his plan is completely devoid of

intellectual integrity, but he hasn't specified exactly where some

of the cuts would come. Mitt Romney has made it clear that he is going

to be the president and it will be his plan. Mitt Romney has

outsourced his brain. There will be no cuts in Wisconsin, I can predict

that. Paul Ryan's big intellectual point is that if you create welfare

on benefits and entitlements for everybody, then everybody will

complain when there are tax cuts, because they will think they are

quick to lose something. That is the problem in Britain and France.

I'm not sure the British economy is creating more jobs. People call

self employed and also part time. You have the illusion that the job

market is doing slightly better, but in the end, salaries are

getting lower and so there is less money to spend. So that country is

to the recession. Exactly. When you talk to people who are working

part-time and do not know how much they will end the next week,

because they cannot predict. short term, like the Olympics. So

you have the illusion that everything is much better, then it

has gone. And because of that uncertainty, you do not what take

risks and you do not spend money. About cutting taxes, everybody

knows you should increase taxes. Not everybody. Everybody in France.

Higher taxes at the top goes without saying. But I am French. We

are simplifying it. A right now it is so convoluted and those who can

pay for it can find ways to get around it. I thought Francois

Hollande had already had his honeymoon and people are wrong

ready saying he is awful. Once you have your first hundred days, he

hasn't been like any collapse a cosy, which for me is a good thing.

And the famous 75 % top tax will actually only be implemented as in

2013. But he is taking a few measures, but the real struggle

So Britain can expect a huge influx? In your dreams! I think,

maybe now, Mitt Romney were the better in the eyes of John McCain.

People considered met Ronnie to be less intelligent. He made a

statement to that effect. I think now, he has to get his house in

order now. He has a good accountant. He can set up a budget, but it will

also bring him, probably, the extreme right wing, bring them

together, closer together. I am talking about the Tea Party. He

does represent the views of the Tea Party. But would that do well, in

the Guards to be called Brink No2AV I think he probably feels good with

his choice. As some people have pointed out, it is maybe tactically

smart at this point to choose somebody to the right at the party,

but strategically is at the right thing when you have an election in

November? I go to the Conservative press and see what they are saying.

They say, this is brilliant, but. We like Paul Ryan, but. It has been

said, he is a clever and decent man. He is making the Conservatives

honest on tax, but I think that means the Republicans will lose him.

And he is reinforcing an unfortunate truth already present

in the electoral system, which is that we have very energised bases,

few of look -- fewer voters who will swing either way. It

crystallises the polarisation. it has been clear that Barack Obama

is getting his retaliation in first. He is already fighting as if his

life depended on it. It has been quite an unpleasant campaign

already. Many negative adverts. He has succeeded, cleverly, in

stamping an image on to Mitt Romney before Ronnie is able to create is

on the Fosse. -- his own myth costs. In terms of British politics, the

coalition which is to reinvigorate itself in order to become -- come

up with some new ideas, one of which maybe in terms of social care

for the elderly. The Government will help you out. Do you think

they've really do need this coalition? But they are in a

different place. The left wing Republicans, the Liberal Boles,

have been marginalised. -- the Liberals. In the UK, David Cameron

is chained by the foot to the Liberal Democrats. So yes, a

sensible cap on health care provision is fine but it alienates

the conservative base. A lot of what he does to placate the Liberal

Democrats, who had a hard summer, alienated his days. That is his

contradiction. He is trying to get elected with a majority government

in 2015, get rid of those Liberal Democrats, have a proper

Conservative government. He needs them in the meantime. He has a real

dilemma. And Boris Johnson, who people think has had a good Olympic

Games, apart from get high wire. -- getting stuck on that high wire. He

said the Government should build a new airport, deregulate sectors of

the economy, should introduce tax cuts. So already, but in that as

the fight to become leader as the Conservative Party. It is seen.

Isn't it? 18 months. The next general election. Boris's talking

about London. A that's true, but it can damage... A he is a clever lazy

fellow. Is that you epitaph? Let's move on.

Kofi Annan has given up on his Syrian peace plan but the United

Nations is - man has appointed a new envoy. Will it make any

difference? How much longer can President Assad last? Do you think

anew UN envoy can do very much? The same problems exist. The short

answer to that is know. -- no, certainly not. The United Nations

failed Syria and the Syrian people. Even before the Kofi Annan plan was

announced. The plan itself also fell through, the moment and

announced his resignation. -- Kofi Annan an ounce. What we are

witnessing, the United Nations celebrating its impotence. We have

seen that before. The Syrians are suffering like hell. You cannot

imagine the stories I keep hearing from my own town and from Aleppo

and Damascus, the totally horrific, children and say, nobody can go out.

I am talking about the centre of cities here. Not the countryside.

Inside the city itself. They cannot go out, they cannot go out to the

back. They do not open the shutters. People are indoors all the time.

There is no central government, which is trusted, any more in the

country, at all. According to the last Prime Minister, who defected,

President Assad controls only 30% of the country. That is a serious

situation. Russia and China, the break on this. The UN has to do

what it can do. It cannot do very much. As Kofi Annan proved, he

could not do much. But I do find the situation quite intractable. In

that it was barely a month ago, we thought that perhaps the

assassination of a high ranking Syrian officials would be a turning

point. It was not. I think any single action can be a turning

point. A staff are rightly said the real turning point was when this

all started 16 or 18 months ago. -- must have far. I think we made

mistakes. If you compare it to Libya, straightaway, I think France

was the first to recognise the free Libyan council as the legitimate

power and not Gaddafi. We did not do this a Syria. I think we should

have done. Especially as there were actually more coherent. It has many

more friends. The Russians say we let them down of a regime change.

Guard against your own biases. I think the Russians and Chinese have

played as cynical and obstructive game. But they say, no, the West

has been opportunist. And they are unleashing forces which... In Libya,

you had a totally different situation. A transitional council,

it was inside the country, they were in Benghazi. And Gaddafi was

in Tripoli. So they had a Libyan territory to operate from. That is

not the case with the Syrian National Council. They are all in

exile. They have been recognised by Western powers will stop so what?

Assad is still in the equation. We are still trying to negotiate with

him. Perhaps he can step down or something. He should not be in the

equation. The West has to persuade the free Syrians to be more

inclusive, to include other people, including those who they do not

like. So, the Russians should behave better. We saw that of the

Pussy Riot trial. But Britain does not seem to care what world opinion

is. -- but Putin does not seem to care. It is not fair, it is not

only Russia and China. Also, the US, this is an acquisition going on

between Russia and the US, over the package of things. All over Asia,

Pakistan, Afghanistan, the Baltic, everywhere. So they need to reach

some kind of agreement, some kind of agreement on division of roles.

The Russians want something from the Americans, and the Americans

are not giving in to the Russians. Meanwhile, the Syrian people

continue to pay the price, as happened before. Britain's strength