01/12/2012 Dateline London


01/12/2012

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thousands of elderly residents. There will be a full news bulletin

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at one o'clock. Now it's time for Hello and welcome to Dateline

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London. The biggest shake-up for the British press in decades - but

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will it require new laws? Is the internet un-regulateable? And is

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the Egyptian revolution in danger? My guests today are Abdallah

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Homouda the Egyptian writer, Marc Roche of Le Monde, Isabel Hilton of

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China Dialogue and Steve Hewlett of the Media Show.

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After months of deliberations, hundreds of witnesses and

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submissions, a British judge, Lord Justice Leveson has made the most

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sweeping recommendations on press reform in decades - some would say

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centuries. The result has been a political split between those, like

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Leveson himself, who say it demands a new law - and those, including

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the Prime Minister, who believe otherwise. But after a series of

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scandals involving the press, TV and the internet, is a free media

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incompatible with anything other than a voluntary code of conduct?

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Do you need compulsion, otherwise the press will not act responsibly?

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At every turn, when there has been an inquiry into the press in that

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time period, at every turn, the press says they will fix it and

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then they don't, so the cry comes up saying, unless you legislate, he

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cannot trust them. In this case, there is something peculiar going

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on. The press have moved further than they ever have done before in

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terms of what they had been prepared to countenance. We have a

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weird position in which both sides agree, the creek that million-pound

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fines, been Greek to enforce corrections, they agree that

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serving editors should no longer play any role in adjudicating

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bodies. There is a level of agreement of what is required.

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Where the divide us on this question of legislative back-up. My

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guess, for what it's worth is that the press will get their act

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together. There will come up with herself regulator in a matter of

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months. In any event, probably two years ahead of any significant vote

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on an actual proposal to legislate. When it comes to actual detail

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about putting it interlock, because it is complicated and divisive,

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they will be fighting about it politically. It will take a long

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time. My bet is that by the time it comes to the prospect of a vote,

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which would be very close to a General Election, the press will

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already have a body in place, which is Leveson compliant, but will not

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be backed by legislation. The other way of looking at it is, we have

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heard victims and families of victims this week saying it is not

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good enough. It is not the pressure Ravenna the deals, it is the

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pressure from the victims themselves. The pressure from

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victims is very important. I would like to address this notion that

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there is nothing between licence and North Korea, because that is a

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line we have been hearing all week. Regulation is a spectrum and cities

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where you sit on that spectrum. I think that given the track record

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of Lister she, there have been endless inquiries and endless

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promises. We simply cannot trust them. They resist it, because a

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legislative underpinning would be a clear enforcement. The idea that

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they would do this without the law would last for five minutes. I get

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a lot of e-mails from people who say keeping the press free is

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nonsense, there are half-a-dozen power for people who run it. If you

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go back in history, you find the press was not free because it was

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funded by governments and political parties. Technically, it has been

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frisson 1685. Before that, all publications have to be separately

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licensed. Since 16th 95, the act of publishing itself has not been

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subject to legislation, so Leveson's called scheme depends on

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legislation. The backstop does not even do anything apart from audit

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the self- regulators. At not necessarily set up by statute.

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statute underpins it. The funding of this entity has to be free from

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participation by the proprietors and the Government. If Ofcom is the

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Auditor, what happens when the auditor falls out with the

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regulator and the Minister for Culture said herself yesterday,

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this is never going to work, because I appoint the chairman of

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Ofcom. I make agree completely with Cameron, because I see the French

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press. Take the example from the President, he had a second family,

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used the state helicopter to protected, used the police and we

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could not publish it. So it is essential to leave the press free.

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I have been 25 years in the UK. Even if some of it is unpleasant,,

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it comes out in this country and it does not come right in France.

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press is free to be reckless and it is free to be old, but it is free.

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At there is a limit to how much freedom you can exercise.

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But looking back at the incident, they committed a crime and that

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crime was punishable by existing laws. If the existing laws can be

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used, then that reduces her need for new legislation. The problem

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comes when the press changes from an English gentleman's club to

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foreign ownership with foreign attitudes to hand its own

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management to running the process their own way. 85 aged between

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legislators and none of legislators can be crossed by a very strict and

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stringent code of conduct and that code of conduct could be enforced

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by the existing laws. And also, structuring the Press Complaints

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Commission in a way that makes sure people out here to the code of

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conduct. I would have more confidence in the argument about

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corruption if it was about the corruption of the press and by the

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press, had it not happened, but we have had endless evidence from

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clever son. He said asses conclusion. Look at the evidence.

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Even the Daily Mail does not believe the police were not being

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paid. Newspapers were paying, that is corruption of public the

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authorities. Police were not paid not to investigate. At but they

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were paid to suppliers information. As soon as you pay them to do

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something they are not supposed to do, it is corruption. He what he is

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suggesting is elegant and interesting and challenging and

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offers all sorts of potential ways forward. A lot of the rest is a bit

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floppy. I think it has to come to the professional integrity in

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journalism. But how do you enforce certain

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standards when many members of the public... They all like competition.

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You have a fantastic press. Look at the situation in France. We hardly

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sell any newspapers. Here, you sell 7 million copies and day. I think

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it is fantastic. The bigger picture, which you discuss are you sure

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quite a lot, is, is it all going to be dead in 10 years anyway? Despite

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what they're saying, many newspapers are not very healthy.

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The Internet, people think you cannot regularly to it. The world

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is changing and it is changing fast. People all round the world were

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trying different models to survive. The big newspapers have big brands.

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They have a place in people's heads. Insofar as people move on mine, if

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the newspapers are smart, I have every confidence they will find a

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way there. On the internet, some times even more than in the world

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of print, the value you describe it to brand she can trust is important.

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If you look at Brands and circulation, they are in in verse

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proportion. But people buy them for fun. Is it 9 million every day?

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the premium on journalism you can trust, I think goes up in the

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online world, not down. So whatever structures you have to enforce it,

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which guarantees certain standards in year out but, I think is more

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important. It is victims of crime and not celebrities. They go be

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protected, but you do not have to protect everyone. You do not have

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to protect David Cameron. 9 million newspapers a day, the press must be

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doing something right. Steve says it is sometimes the press which is

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seen to overstep the mark the most, that is the stuff we buy. I think

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the readers who like scandal and cost of, who do not care if it is

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true, I think even they have been shocked by what the press has done

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to victims of crime, to ordinary people caught up in defence. Yes,

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of course you can dangle something bright and shiny and they will buy

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it, but this is damaging, I think. He but there is a complete

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consensus at this point that that has to change and a new self-

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regulatory body, which I think will be in existence very soon. But we

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have had the appearance of compliance so often. They have

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On that, we will hold our breath. The continuing political unrest in

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Egypt, and the situation in Gaza, mean that the Middle East is in

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turmoil again. Is Muhammad mussy -- Morsi helping or undermining the

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situation? I think there is inherent suspicion in the Muslim

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Brotherhood attitudes, and the fact that Morsi is not in his own right

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as president, and it appears that many declarations and decisions

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which Morsi announces are not being made necessarily in the presidency,

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but made in the headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood under the

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auspices of the Supreme Guide, and then sent to the presidency. I can

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testify to that on the basis that a number of Morsi's advisers,

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especially legal advisers, they were not consulted about this

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decision. In that sense, are you saying he is a puppet president?

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Another way of looking at it is that for a lot of secular people in

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Egypt, this is sour grapes. They lost the election, and they don't

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like the result and therefore the policies being pursued? This is

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true as well. People are not used to the democratic practice, and

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some of them are taking it hard. But the Supreme Military Council

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when they were in charge of the country, they still did a process

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in a way which led us to a choice between Mubarak's men or Morsi's

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men. So there was a feeling that, if I was not there, the Muslim

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Brotherhood will come. And in the second round run an election,

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people gave their votes to Morsi in order to deprive Mubarak's men from

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coming. And many non- Islamists, revolutionaries, did that. What

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role, then, is the army likely to play now? Because they have been

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fairly quiet. They are quiet, but there are reports that they are

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feeling restless. They have said they will not support the Muslim

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Brotherhood. They will keep an equal distance from all political

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forces, and they will come in only if there is a danger to protect the

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institutions of the state. The question is they won't come to do

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that without Morsi's orders. But this is the big question. There are

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huge demonstrations going on this weekend, for and against Morsi. How

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is this scene in France? The whole jigsaw of the Middle East is being

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reassembled. We have heard from a Palestinian point of view, good

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news from them in the increased recognition at the UN. Well, you

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see, France is not playing in this, it is Europe. And Europe, in the

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question on Morsi, there was one voice to vote for the Palestinian,

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but the British again went on their way against Europe and their

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partners. But the real solution, it is only the US which can put

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pressure on Morsi, on the Israelis, on Palestine. Because they pay, and

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the US has the money, but they don't. How do you see this

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particularly? William Hague has said that he once the Israelis to

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think again about the 3,000 new settlements which have been built

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in occupied east Jerusalem, which to many people is the real issue,

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because week by week, day-by-day, the fact on the ground changed.

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agree, and I absolutely agree that it is only the US that can put on

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the real pressure. But I do think that the European Union should not

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be entirely without voice here. We know that the US will tend to

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favour one strong even if authoritarian leader, because it is

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an instrument of its Middle East policy. You will not get a solution

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to the conflict that way. There were also be a strong president as

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an instrument of policy. Life is changing, and no absolute ruler

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will come again, and Morsi... you sure of that? I can be sure of

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that in Egypt especially. The barrier of fear has been broken,

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and people will not accept anyone who does not communicate. The

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problem with Morsi is that he does not give the impression of a state

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leader. He gives the impression of a preacher in a mosque. We are all

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Muslims, most of us, and if Muslim rule is applied fairly, not

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according to what they say, many Christians feel happy with it.

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was going to ask you, but maybe in a sense it has been answered. Have

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we in the media, in Britain for example, over sold the Arab Spring?

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You see the cycle of fear being broken in Tunisia and Egypt and

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elsewhere. This seems like good news. And in Kuwait and in Bahrain.

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I don't think it is so much oversold as expectations are

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accelerated. You come item of generations of never having had

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democracy and overthrow a single or -- singular dictatorial regime, in

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a rather on problematic way, all trooped along to the polling

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station and vote, that seems unrealistic. So this was about

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bringing democracy in, and then it would almost and start to function.

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I don't think it was oversold. He seems to me there is a genuine

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revolution going on. But will it produce democracy? Spain terms of

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the press, you are more free to come and go. How free is the press

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in Egypt now? The press feel the restriction coming. We have a

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minister of information he belongs to the Muslim Brotherhood. On

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Tuesday, 10 newspapers are going to stop publishing. On Wednesday, and

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number of TV channels are going to appear blank. This is how things

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are going. Unfortunately, President Morsi with unconstitutional

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declaration has put the region which he represents against the

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good practice and the morality of politics. But the Muslim

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Brotherhood will get away with coming to power with the military

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council to try to do this. He doesn't appear to be learning.

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was going to absolutely agree that overthrowing the dictator is not

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the revolution. The revolution is what follows when you reshape

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society, when you're trying to produce a country, as we would hope,

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where minorities are not persecuted, women's rights are guaranteed, the

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rule of law is effective. That is the revolution. A couple of minutes

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left commander wanted to turn to British domestic politics. The UK

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Independence Party has done quite well this week. Its leader has said

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they are now the third force in British politics, and they seek to

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remove Britain from the European Union, they want a referendum on it.

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You are a UKIP supporter, aren't you? I want to see the British out

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of the EU so that we can go on with the political union, the Labour

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Union, go on with life, and Britain can come in with the agreement or

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Norway or Hong Kong or Switzerland or whatever. But the problem is

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that the British at the moment realise that going out of the EU

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would be catastrophic for them, and so I hope they follow UKIP, but I

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don't think they will. We are stuck with them again. You fear that the

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British might act in their own interests! That's a very French

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position, if I may say so. I think UKIP represent a shift in the

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centre of ground on that issue. And it has been fed into resources such

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as immigration. There is a lot going on that isn't just about the

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EU. But that is all they are, and all they can do is make it more of

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an issue. The terrible thing is that the pro-European coming up,

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Blair, Mandelson, they are speaking and were ignored. I fear you are

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going to be disappointed in the end. I think a win for UKIP does not

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mean an increase in popularity much. It means a reflection on the state

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of Europe now, especially in the economic field. I don't think there

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is much to go for them, actually. There is a limitation. They are

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going out of the spectrum, in a way, and making life difficult for the

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Conservatives. Mario Draghi has said that next year we welcome the

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eurozone crisis! We will look forward to that! I think the Tories

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have a calculation not dissimilar to that of Republicans and the

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United States. How far do accommodate the extremes? So you

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see it as a kind of tea-party movement? They have a powerful

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appeal to a limited sector, in a rather simplistic and in practical

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way. And that is a disaster for the Lib-Dems. Isn't that the big story

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of this week? It is not that UKIP have done particularly well, but

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that the Lib Dems have done extraordinarily badly. They are

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vulnerable to a single issue proposition because it doesn't

:24:19.:24:25.

matter. You have got the government you've got what have you made for.

:24:25.:24:29.

They have neutralised themselves. Whether that remains the case at

:24:29.:24:33.

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