Browse content similar to 01/12/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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thousands of elderly residents. There will be a full news bulletin | :00:04. | :00:14. | |
:00:14. | :00:22. | ||
at one o'clock. Now it's time for Hello and welcome to Dateline | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
London. The biggest shake-up for the British press in decades - but | :00:25. | :00:31. | |
will it require new laws? Is the internet un-regulateable? And is | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
the Egyptian revolution in danger? My guests today are Abdallah | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
Homouda the Egyptian writer, Marc Roche of Le Monde, Isabel Hilton of | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
China Dialogue and Steve Hewlett of the Media Show. | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
After months of deliberations, hundreds of witnesses and | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
submissions, a British judge, Lord Justice Leveson has made the most | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
sweeping recommendations on press reform in decades - some would say | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
centuries. The result has been a political split between those, like | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
Leveson himself, who say it demands a new law - and those, including | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
the Prime Minister, who believe otherwise. But after a series of | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
scandals involving the press, TV and the internet, is a free media | :01:02. | :01:12. | |
:01:12. | :01:15. | ||
incompatible with anything other than a voluntary code of conduct? | :01:15. | :01:24. | |
Do you need compulsion, otherwise the press will not act responsibly? | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
At every turn, when there has been an inquiry into the press in that | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
time period, at every turn, the press says they will fix it and | :01:35. | :01:41. | |
then they don't, so the cry comes up saying, unless you legislate, he | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
cannot trust them. In this case, there is something peculiar going | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
on. The press have moved further than they ever have done before in | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
terms of what they had been prepared to countenance. We have a | :01:55. | :02:05. | |
weird position in which both sides agree, the creek that million-pound | :02:05. | :02:15. | |
fines, been Greek to enforce corrections, they agree that | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
serving editors should no longer play any role in adjudicating | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
bodies. There is a level of agreement of what is required. | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
Where the divide us on this question of legislative back-up. My | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
guess, for what it's worth is that the press will get their act | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
together. There will come up with herself regulator in a matter of | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
months. In any event, probably two years ahead of any significant vote | :02:47. | :02:55. | |
on an actual proposal to legislate. When it comes to actual detail | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
about putting it interlock, because it is complicated and divisive, | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
they will be fighting about it politically. It will take a long | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
time. My bet is that by the time it comes to the prospect of a vote, | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
which would be very close to a General Election, the press will | :03:14. | :03:21. | |
already have a body in place, which is Leveson compliant, but will not | :03:21. | :03:30. | |
be backed by legislation. The other way of looking at it is, we have | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
heard victims and families of victims this week saying it is not | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
good enough. It is not the pressure Ravenna the deals, it is the | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
pressure from the victims themselves. The pressure from | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
victims is very important. I would like to address this notion that | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
there is nothing between licence and North Korea, because that is a | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
line we have been hearing all week. Regulation is a spectrum and cities | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
where you sit on that spectrum. I think that given the track record | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
of Lister she, there have been endless inquiries and endless | :04:08. | :04:18. | |
:04:18. | :04:19. | ||
promises. We simply cannot trust them. They resist it, because a | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
legislative underpinning would be a clear enforcement. The idea that | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
they would do this without the law would last for five minutes. I get | :04:30. | :04:38. | |
a lot of e-mails from people who say keeping the press free is | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
nonsense, there are half-a-dozen power for people who run it. If you | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
go back in history, you find the press was not free because it was | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
funded by governments and political parties. Technically, it has been | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
frisson 1685. Before that, all publications have to be separately | :04:57. | :05:07. | |
:05:07. | :05:09. | ||
licensed. Since 16th 95, the act of publishing itself has not been | :05:09. | :05:18. | |
subject to legislation, so Leveson's called scheme depends on | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
legislation. The backstop does not even do anything apart from audit | :05:24. | :05:34. | |
the self- regulators. At not necessarily set up by statute. | :05:34. | :05:41. | |
statute underpins it. The funding of this entity has to be free from | :05:41. | :05:48. | |
participation by the proprietors and the Government. If Ofcom is the | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
Auditor, what happens when the auditor falls out with the | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
regulator and the Minister for Culture said herself yesterday, | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
this is never going to work, because I appoint the chairman of | :05:59. | :06:09. | |
:06:09. | :06:09. | ||
Ofcom. I make agree completely with Cameron, because I see the French | :06:09. | :06:17. | |
press. Take the example from the President, he had a second family, | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
used the state helicopter to protected, used the police and we | :06:24. | :06:33. | |
could not publish it. So it is essential to leave the press free. | :06:33. | :06:43. | |
:06:43. | :06:45. | ||
I have been 25 years in the UK. Even if some of it is unpleasant,, | :06:45. | :06:53. | |
it comes out in this country and it does not come right in France. | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
press is free to be reckless and it is free to be old, but it is free. | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
At there is a limit to how much freedom you can exercise. | :07:05. | :07:14. | |
But looking back at the incident, they committed a crime and that | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
crime was punishable by existing laws. If the existing laws can be | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
used, then that reduces her need for new legislation. The problem | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
comes when the press changes from an English gentleman's club to | :07:31. | :07:39. | |
foreign ownership with foreign attitudes to hand its own | :07:39. | :07:48. | |
management to running the process their own way. 85 aged between | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
legislators and none of legislators can be crossed by a very strict and | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
stringent code of conduct and that code of conduct could be enforced | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
by the existing laws. And also, structuring the Press Complaints | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
Commission in a way that makes sure people out here to the code of | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
conduct. I would have more confidence in the argument about | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
corruption if it was about the corruption of the press and by the | :08:21. | :08:28. | |
press, had it not happened, but we have had endless evidence from | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
clever son. He said asses conclusion. Look at the evidence. | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
Even the Daily Mail does not believe the police were not being | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
paid. Newspapers were paying, that is corruption of public the | :08:40. | :08:48. | |
authorities. Police were not paid not to investigate. At but they | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
were paid to suppliers information. As soon as you pay them to do | :08:52. | :09:00. | |
something they are not supposed to do, it is corruption. He what he is | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
suggesting is elegant and interesting and challenging and | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
offers all sorts of potential ways forward. A lot of the rest is a bit | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
floppy. I think it has to come to the professional integrity in | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
journalism. But how do you enforce certain | :09:19. | :09:29. | |
:09:29. | :09:29. | ||
standards when many members of the public... They all like competition. | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
You have a fantastic press. Look at the situation in France. We hardly | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
sell any newspapers. Here, you sell 7 million copies and day. I think | :09:42. | :09:49. | |
it is fantastic. The bigger picture, which you discuss are you sure | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
quite a lot, is, is it all going to be dead in 10 years anyway? Despite | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
what they're saying, many newspapers are not very healthy. | :09:59. | :10:09. | |
:10:09. | :10:11. | ||
The Internet, people think you cannot regularly to it. The world | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
is changing and it is changing fast. People all round the world were | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
trying different models to survive. The big newspapers have big brands. | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
They have a place in people's heads. Insofar as people move on mine, if | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
the newspapers are smart, I have every confidence they will find a | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
way there. On the internet, some times even more than in the world | :10:36. | :10:42. | |
of print, the value you describe it to brand she can trust is important. | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
If you look at Brands and circulation, they are in in verse | :10:47. | :10:57. | |
:10:57. | :10:59. | ||
proportion. But people buy them for fun. Is it 9 million every day? | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
the premium on journalism you can trust, I think goes up in the | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
online world, not down. So whatever structures you have to enforce it, | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
which guarantees certain standards in year out but, I think is more | :11:15. | :11:23. | |
important. It is victims of crime and not celebrities. They go be | :11:23. | :11:32. | |
protected, but you do not have to protect everyone. You do not have | :11:32. | :11:42. | |
:11:42. | :11:51. | ||
to protect David Cameron. 9 million newspapers a day, the press must be | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
doing something right. Steve says it is sometimes the press which is | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
seen to overstep the mark the most, that is the stuff we buy. I think | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
the readers who like scandal and cost of, who do not care if it is | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
true, I think even they have been shocked by what the press has done | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
to victims of crime, to ordinary people caught up in defence. Yes, | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
of course you can dangle something bright and shiny and they will buy | :12:22. | :12:29. | |
it, but this is damaging, I think. He but there is a complete | :12:29. | :12:37. | |
consensus at this point that that has to change and a new self- | :12:37. | :12:44. | |
regulatory body, which I think will be in existence very soon. But we | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
have had the appearance of compliance so often. They have | :12:47. | :12:57. | |
:12:57. | :13:02. | ||
On that, we will hold our breath. The continuing political unrest in | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
Egypt, and the situation in Gaza, mean that the Middle East is in | :13:07. | :13:17. | |
:13:17. | :13:23. | ||
turmoil again. Is Muhammad mussy -- Morsi helping or undermining the | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
situation? I think there is inherent suspicion in the Muslim | :13:28. | :13:35. | |
Brotherhood attitudes, and the fact that Morsi is not in his own right | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
as president, and it appears that many declarations and decisions | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
which Morsi announces are not being made necessarily in the presidency, | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
but made in the headquarters of the Muslim Brotherhood under the | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
auspices of the Supreme Guide, and then sent to the presidency. I can | :13:56. | :14:02. | |
testify to that on the basis that a number of Morsi's advisers, | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
especially legal advisers, they were not consulted about this | :14:05. | :14:12. | |
decision. In that sense, are you saying he is a puppet president? | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
Another way of looking at it is that for a lot of secular people in | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
Egypt, this is sour grapes. They lost the election, and they don't | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
like the result and therefore the policies being pursued? This is | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
true as well. People are not used to the democratic practice, and | :14:31. | :14:38. | |
some of them are taking it hard. But the Supreme Military Council | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
when they were in charge of the country, they still did a process | :14:42. | :14:50. | |
in a way which led us to a choice between Mubarak's men or Morsi's | :14:50. | :14:58. | |
men. So there was a feeling that, if I was not there, the Muslim | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
Brotherhood will come. And in the second round run an election, | :15:02. | :15:10. | |
people gave their votes to Morsi in order to deprive Mubarak's men from | :15:10. | :15:18. | |
coming. And many non- Islamists, revolutionaries, did that. What | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
role, then, is the army likely to play now? Because they have been | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
fairly quiet. They are quiet, but there are reports that they are | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
feeling restless. They have said they will not support the Muslim | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
Brotherhood. They will keep an equal distance from all political | :15:39. | :15:46. | |
forces, and they will come in only if there is a danger to protect the | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
institutions of the state. The question is they won't come to do | :15:51. | :15:59. | |
that without Morsi's orders. But this is the big question. There are | :15:59. | :16:05. | |
huge demonstrations going on this weekend, for and against Morsi. How | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
is this scene in France? The whole jigsaw of the Middle East is being | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
reassembled. We have heard from a Palestinian point of view, good | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
news from them in the increased recognition at the UN. Well, you | :16:21. | :16:31. | |
:16:31. | :16:34. | ||
see, France is not playing in this, it is Europe. And Europe, in the | :16:34. | :16:41. | |
question on Morsi, there was one voice to vote for the Palestinian, | :16:41. | :16:50. | |
but the British again went on their way against Europe and their | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
partners. But the real solution, it is only the US which can put | :16:57. | :17:04. | |
pressure on Morsi, on the Israelis, on Palestine. Because they pay, and | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
the US has the money, but they don't. How do you see this | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
particularly? William Hague has said that he once the Israelis to | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
think again about the 3,000 new settlements which have been built | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
in occupied east Jerusalem, which to many people is the real issue, | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
because week by week, day-by-day, the fact on the ground changed. | :17:28. | :17:35. | |
agree, and I absolutely agree that it is only the US that can put on | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
the real pressure. But I do think that the European Union should not | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
be entirely without voice here. We know that the US will tend to | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
favour one strong even if authoritarian leader, because it is | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
an instrument of its Middle East policy. You will not get a solution | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
to the conflict that way. There were also be a strong president as | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
an instrument of policy. Life is changing, and no absolute ruler | :18:04. | :18:11. | |
will come again, and Morsi... you sure of that? I can be sure of | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
that in Egypt especially. The barrier of fear has been broken, | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
and people will not accept anyone who does not communicate. The | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
problem with Morsi is that he does not give the impression of a state | :18:25. | :18:32. | |
leader. He gives the impression of a preacher in a mosque. We are all | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
Muslims, most of us, and if Muslim rule is applied fairly, not | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
according to what they say, many Christians feel happy with it. | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
was going to ask you, but maybe in a sense it has been answered. Have | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
we in the media, in Britain for example, over sold the Arab Spring? | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
You see the cycle of fear being broken in Tunisia and Egypt and | :18:59. | :19:07. | |
elsewhere. This seems like good news. And in Kuwait and in Bahrain. | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
I don't think it is so much oversold as expectations are | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
accelerated. You come item of generations of never having had | :19:18. | :19:26. | |
democracy and overthrow a single or -- singular dictatorial regime, in | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
a rather on problematic way, all trooped along to the polling | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
station and vote, that seems unrealistic. So this was about | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
bringing democracy in, and then it would almost and start to function. | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
I don't think it was oversold. He seems to me there is a genuine | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
revolution going on. But will it produce democracy? Spain terms of | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
the press, you are more free to come and go. How free is the press | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
in Egypt now? The press feel the restriction coming. We have a | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
minister of information he belongs to the Muslim Brotherhood. On | :20:04. | :20:13. | |
Tuesday, 10 newspapers are going to stop publishing. On Wednesday, and | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
number of TV channels are going to appear blank. This is how things | :20:16. | :20:26. | |
:20:26. | :20:27. | ||
are going. Unfortunately, President Morsi with unconstitutional | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
declaration has put the region which he represents against the | :20:31. | :20:40. | |
good practice and the morality of politics. But the Muslim | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
Brotherhood will get away with coming to power with the military | :20:43. | :20:50. | |
council to try to do this. He doesn't appear to be learning. | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
was going to absolutely agree that overthrowing the dictator is not | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
the revolution. The revolution is what follows when you reshape | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
society, when you're trying to produce a country, as we would hope, | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
where minorities are not persecuted, women's rights are guaranteed, the | :21:06. | :21:13. | |
rule of law is effective. That is the revolution. A couple of minutes | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
left commander wanted to turn to British domestic politics. The UK | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
Independence Party has done quite well this week. Its leader has said | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
they are now the third force in British politics, and they seek to | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
remove Britain from the European Union, they want a referendum on it. | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
You are a UKIP supporter, aren't you? I want to see the British out | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
of the EU so that we can go on with the political union, the Labour | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
Union, go on with life, and Britain can come in with the agreement or | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
Norway or Hong Kong or Switzerland or whatever. But the problem is | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
that the British at the moment realise that going out of the EU | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
would be catastrophic for them, and so I hope they follow UKIP, but I | :22:10. | :22:16. | |
don't think they will. We are stuck with them again. You fear that the | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
British might act in their own interests! That's a very French | :22:20. | :22:28. | |
position, if I may say so. I think UKIP represent a shift in the | :22:28. | :22:35. | |
centre of ground on that issue. And it has been fed into resources such | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
as immigration. There is a lot going on that isn't just about the | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
EU. But that is all they are, and all they can do is make it more of | :22:45. | :22:53. | |
an issue. The terrible thing is that the pro-European coming up, | :22:54. | :23:01. | |
Blair, Mandelson, they are speaking and were ignored. I fear you are | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
going to be disappointed in the end. I think a win for UKIP does not | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
mean an increase in popularity much. It means a reflection on the state | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
of Europe now, especially in the economic field. I don't think there | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
is much to go for them, actually. There is a limitation. They are | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
going out of the spectrum, in a way, and making life difficult for the | :23:30. | :23:38. | |
Conservatives. Mario Draghi has said that next year we welcome the | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
eurozone crisis! We will look forward to that! I think the Tories | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
have a calculation not dissimilar to that of Republicans and the | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
United States. How far do accommodate the extremes? So you | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
see it as a kind of tea-party movement? They have a powerful | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
appeal to a limited sector, in a rather simplistic and in practical | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
way. And that is a disaster for the Lib-Dems. Isn't that the big story | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
of this week? It is not that UKIP have done particularly well, but | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
that the Lib Dems have done extraordinarily badly. They are | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
vulnerable to a single issue proposition because it doesn't | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
matter. You have got the government you've got what have you made for. | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
They have neutralised themselves. Whether that remains the case at | :24:29. | :24:33. |