19/01/2013 Dateline London


19/01/2013

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back at 1pm. Now, it is time for Welcome to Dateline London, at

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gearian hostage siege and what it means for Mali, France and the

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international community. Plus the speech that never happened. Has

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David Cameron raised expectations about Britain in Europe that he

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cannot fulfil? My guests today are Nabila Ramdani, Marc Roche, Greg

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:00:52.:00:55.

Katz and Ian and Ian Birrell. When France decided to send troops to

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Mali, one leader promised that the gates of hell would open. The

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attack on the BP gas facility in Algeria was planned before the

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French intervention, but what can be done about Al-Qaeda? Nabila,

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maybe you could explain how things are seen from an Algerian prospect.

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Yes, I think first and foremost western gas and oil facilities,

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especially in this part of the Samarra are always going to be

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prime targets for Al-Qaeda related groups and it would be naive to

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think otherwise, but as far as the Algerian Government is concern, it

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was always going to do everything it could to protect this hugely

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lucrative, but also sensitive and vulnerable facility and it is

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really about politician because it represents a significant proportion

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of the GDP. But how do they see the potential threat to them from Al-

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Qaeda? What do they think of these people? Al, Algeria has been

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fighting Islamic militant groups for decades. You mentioned the dark

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period of the civil war in the 1990s where the Algerian Government

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and the Army were fighting those groups ferociously and the

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background, the history of Algeria is an extremely violent one and it

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produced ruthless security forces who are always ready to respond in

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kind to that kind of gangs, sinister gangs effectively.

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Ian, you know Mali. You are in love with the music of the area and have

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a lot of connections with Mali. Maybe you could explain why Mali

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fits into this part of the jigsaw. What What is the Mally connection?

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-- Mali connection? You have a country that that has been a toll

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rent country, -- toll rent country. The latest revolution started in

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the wake of the Libya conflict. Into that, these people are not

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Islamists. These are people who want their own state, but into the

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mix in recent years have come a lot of smaller Islamic terrorist groups

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who are actually gangsters, who have made a lot of money out of

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smuggling. The Sahara has been a place for smuggling and they have

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been smuggling cars and guns and drugs and kidnapping tourists. Some

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of them there is a suspicion has been built up by the Government by

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the governments. The Islamists have elbowed aside the people who want

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an independent state and occupied two-thirds of the country and

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imposed strict interpretation and a distorted interpretation of Sharia

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law. They have banned everything from social mixing through to music

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which is unbelievable because there is few countries where music is so

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entwined with the country and that's the mess we are in there.

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To add one further layer. Other people people suggested this is an

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indirect consequence of what happened in Libya because well,

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there is a lot of guns about. simplistic to say this is a direct

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direct consequence of what happened in Libya. The one thing you should

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add this isn't a legacy of western intervention because there was a

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revolution going in Libya anyway. Forces were fighting and the the

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tourags were always going to back Gaddafi.

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This is a consequence of the French military intervention in Mali and

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the French President said as much and the Algerian support was seen

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as a further provocation and Al- Qaeda is looking for a spectacular.

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They know that Western Governments, western populations and western

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media would respond. Francois Hollande says this proves

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we were right to go into Mali and help the Government there. Do you

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think that's how the French people see it? There is unanimity that it

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was the only thing to do because you had the domino-effect on the

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whole region if Mali fell to the Islamists and it would have

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threaten Nigeria because you had a a strong link between the

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extremeists in both countries. So Francois Hollande, who is perceived

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as weak, as indecisive, has chosen foreign policy to show that he

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means business and he has the support, not only of the French

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people, of the right-wing opposition, but also of the

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Europeans. And one of the things that he did,

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was he went to Algeria. He didn't apologise for French colonialism,

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but he said say, "We understand we didn't get everything right." Are

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relations good? The refugees from Algeria, who were afraid of that

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gesture. Francois Hollande is not linked with that because the

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Algerians vote for the National Front, they don't note for

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socialists. He did the right thing by apologising and that's why he is

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coming back in the polls and it is a new Francois Hollande presidency.

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There has been some irritation here about the lack of communication

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from the Algerians, not telling us what they were going to do and also

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some were suggesting they were heavy handed. Is that seen

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differently in France? Absolutely. The only thing possible since they

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were threatening hostages was to use force. I don't know what is

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wrong with the British for saying we should have been asked. We

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should have been asked for advice. The algear Algerians can do that.

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They are out of a bloody civil war and they know how to cope with that.

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They did the right thing. From Washington, there is the

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matter of the hostages and how many Americans are there and so on, but

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there is the wider matter that US strategic interests, oil question,

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friendly nations like Morocco, all of whom could be destabilised by

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this and Nigeria as well? I think what has happened the US has not

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been actively involved in this part of Africa and has not been on the

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top of their agenda and that's changed in the last six weeks and

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particularly in the last two weeks. I think during the election

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campaign, Obama didn't want to raise any concerns about anymore

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foreign policy concerns, but they have no choice, but American

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interests are at risk here at this point.

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Some publish diplomats talked about the powers, the Vietnam parallel

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that you have got a I will legitimate Government and somehow,

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we seem to be in a position where we have to support them? There is

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no other choice. You know, if that Government goes, Mali goes. If Mali

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goes the whole region which is slowly coming out very painfully

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out of poverty. It has enormous potential to raw material and it

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will be put into difficulties. I see that Mali point. It came out

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of a coup, but a lot of people were upset with the way corruption had

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been allowed to grow so much under the democratic Government. It was a

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very tired Government and it was unpopular so there were people who

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weren't antagonist of of what the copy people were saying. The

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military chiefs look ridiculous because they are saying, "We are

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going to lead it. We don't need foreigners." They look sidelined so

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I think this is going to be good in the fight to restore democracy in

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Mali which is what Malians want. Malians are supportive of the

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French. The whole country could have fallen under the Islamists.

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Right, Syria, we have seen tens of thousands dead. Mali, came out of

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almost nowhere, but you have been talking about it for some years. So

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you think it is a justifiable intervention and a winnable war?

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think it is a necessary intervention. I think had they not

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interyeen, the country -- intervened and Nigeria is one of

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the biggest oil exporters to the west.

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Whether it is winnable, time will tell. There are 5,000 or 6 6,000

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fight nears the north and it is -- fighters in the north. They will

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melt back into the desert areas and you will never fully quash them.

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The biggest question isn't the restoration of democracy, it is how

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to you resolve the grievances? How do you find a situation where these

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nomadic people can be satisfied and don't end up trying to get - in

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returning to the gun to resolve their problems? Where do you think

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most Algerians and others stand on this western intervention? Well, I

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think the Algerian president has been pragmatic about it and high on

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the agenda when Francois Hollande visited him last December were

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discussions about the situation in Mali. I think it is Algeria is

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opening up and it is strengthening its relationship to try and deal

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with the real problem at its its door. So it is about economic

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corporation, but more and more about military co-operation. We

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have seen how the Algerian president opened its airspace and

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its sharing intelligence and he made a very public support for the

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intervention so they are very worried about this Al-Qaeda problem

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that needs to be sorted out in the region.

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Just a couple of minutes left on this. You talked about Muslims in

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Mali and you talked about the change that is taking place in a

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lot of countries. I wonder how worried you would be about that and

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how we should think about that because that has nothing to do with

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guns directly. Well, the real question at the heart of this,

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there is a lot of money swelling around in that desert area. People

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who are fighting for the Islamist are getting money. People are being

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bribed to go and join their cause. This money isn't coming from that

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region, it is coming from outside. The suspicion is that the hand of

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Saudi Arabia is involved there and the truth is that Saudi Arabia is

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behind a lot of the problems which have caused so much trouble over

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the last decade and this is something the west does not face up

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to which is to tackle the root cause of a lot of these problems

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which is the extreme wEmt but -- wealth that we are seeing coming

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out of Saudi Arabia. That is the problem that successive

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American and British administrations doesn't want to

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talk about. The vast billions that are getting trance transferred from

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the west to the Saudis and back out to support these groups. Nobody in

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the administration in Washington wants to talk about it or in the UK

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for that matter. People recognise there is a link. A

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link between what people believe and what they do? We have been

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writing that and saying that for ten years now, but nobody in

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official Washington will acknowledge it or address it.

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Let's move on. David Cameron big speech on Europe has been like a

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never ending dance of the seven veils. Events in Algeria meant he

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had to cancel going to Holland this week. Anyone with any any views has

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toll the Prime Minister -- told the Prime Minister what should be in

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the speech. Has he stirred up more trouble. It is an odd thing to go

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on about this big speech and not I don't think you can blame him for

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not actually making it. It is the most absurd hype before a speech.

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Also, it's a speech which can never satisfy the demands placed on it.

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It was a complete no-win. Politically it was very bad to

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allow it to become a toe temic event, worsened by the fact that it

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wasn't given. When we look at what he was kpweing to say, I think he

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had a cogent argument, but that's been lost now in the heat of the

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debate. You used to write speeches for David Cameron. Do they matter?

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No, I don't think most speeches do matter very much. A big party

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conference speech makes a big impact and we can remember one or

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two great speeches over the last couple of decades. But most

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speeches don't matter very much. That's why it's silly how it's been

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allowed to get out of hand. must love this. We say to the

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British, we want to win. But if you want to leave and your dream is

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becoming Norway, Switzerland and Hong Kong, you leave, but we will

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not give up the Europe like we meet it. It's not Europe a la carte.

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There's nothing to repatriot. I find it still, because I got hold

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of the speech on my way to Amsterdam. He was going to say that

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Europe is undemock -- undemocratic. The commission is chosen by all the

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member. The court of justice is more liberal and more protective of

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human rights than British justice and if there's one undemocratic

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situation, it's the electoral system in Britain, which is not

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proportional like European election are. It has no lesson to give us.

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He should take lesson from us. told. Do we want to have the

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European debate? I'm not sure. Let's talk about the speech and

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about Britain's role, because one of the things that has been

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striking, come to America in a moment, but countries that are

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friendly to Britain and actually have quite conservative with a

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small "c" views on how to run an economy like Germany and Sweden,

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think this is a mistake. They think Cameron is overplaying his hand.

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Yes but I think it's a domestic matter for Britain almost. I agree

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with Ian, it was almost impossible to write such a speech. You're

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dealing with very devicive issues. You're boubd to -- bound to anow a

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number of people listen to rb -- bound to anow a number of people

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listening to that speech. Indeed the economic and political powers,

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as a nation state, but it's all very well blurting out platitudes

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about the unique role of Britain but it's harder to deliver on what

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people actually expect from responsible government. I'm sorry

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to go on that one. The problem of Britain is that they never

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reconcile Germany, at the time where on Monday, we will have a big

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party for the 50th anniversary of the Franco-German friendship, here,

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they still this fear of Germany and that explain a lot of the reaction.

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Which because in many ways I think you would accept in many ways

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Britain should be closer to Germany than France. The Royal Family is

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German. Very close to Germany, it's very close, state aploch. They're

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obsessed with World War II. Leaving aside the war, the one area I might

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agree on is Britain and should have formed a closer bond with Germany

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and then have driven through reforms to an institution which is

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very undemocratic and is bloated and wasteful and there to service

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the need of small French farmers which is absurd. The bigger

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question... A British farmers by the way. Big British farmers. The

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real fundamental question is the world change -- is change soing

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fast. You go to Africa, Latin America and Asia and we're dancing

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on a pin head, agonising over our relationship with Europe when the

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world is change soing fast. If we're not careful, Britain needs to

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wake up to what's happening and see how relevant this is. We'll still

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be arguing over whether we should repatriate powers while the rest of

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the world has roared ahead Europe say lot less relevant than it was

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ten years ago. Sure. These internal arguments become somewhat absurd.

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There's no question that it's bloated and overregulated and

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10,000 pages of documents when 20 pages would be able to sum it up,

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but the point is Asia, Latin America, all these places are move

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ago head quickly. They're sort of laughing at this union, to a degree.

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I'm struck when you were saying when you were saying that almost

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the same thing is said by Angela Merkel. She says that Europe has

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got to wake up, that when the EU was founded we were a very big area

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in terms of economy, in terms of the rest of the world, big in terms

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of population, but we are shrinking as part of the cake. We haven't

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woken up to that, which is another good reason perhaps for Britain and

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Germany to make more common cause. I agree. It has been mishandled on

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all sides for many years. It's easy to blame individual politicians now.

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But the countries have become locked into a ridiculous dance

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going on and can't see what's really happening. Europe is a

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success, I'm sorry to say, the Nobel Prize, it's 50 or 60 years of

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peace and you kpbtd disregard it. America has said during the week

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that Europe is very important and that Britain should be in. In terms

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of standard of living, in terms of economy despite the crisis, Europe

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is still, with the Welfare State... We they can't afford the well stair

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-- Welfare State. We can't afford it Where is the growth? Yes, the

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wine is good, the health care is g, the roads are good, the trains are

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pretty good, but where is the growth? Well the growth will come

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from more integration in the EU. That's how the growth will come.

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The growth will come any way because there will be a relaunch of

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the economy and it will be great. And the example of Britain where no

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growth has been created through austerity, while we have, at least,

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we don't do such hard austerity and the growth will come because we are

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a big ensemble where we trade together. Holloway said he was

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going to -- Holland e said he would expand and he's had to restract.

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lot of governments realise it's a good ideal, but it hasn't been

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working terribly well. It has been working very well. You know 27

:21:44.:21:49.

countries coming together, becoming a super power. On the level of

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America, being regarded by the Chinese as the Indian as a

:21:52.:21:58.

superpower. I think they would dispute that. It's been working to

:21:59.:22:02.

great success. The eurozone crisis has shown there are problems but it

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is a way of being solved. I just want to ask about one other big

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story this week. Many people would think it's important, gun control

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in America. Here we have the President saying I'm going to do

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something and I need Congress to help. As soon as Congress to help

:22:16.:22:21.

comes out of his mouth, it's not going to happen. No, it's not. This

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is incredibly hard for Britons and Europeans to understand, but our

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domestic situation is so gridlocked over the issue and the idea that

:22:29.:22:34.

there would be significant movement in Congress, it's just not in the

:22:34.:22:37.

cards, not under Obama or the next President. I don't think it is

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likely to change. But is it ever going to change? I heard one

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American commentator saying, it took 75 years to get slave riff out

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of the constitution and it was perfectly legal to do certain

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things. It's perfectly legal to do certain things now, but there is a

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parallel, we can change, but it will take a long time. Attitudes

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have changed on gay marriage, civil rights litigation has changed. All

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that has changed. I see the gun lobby as perpetual and self-

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perpetuating. The constitutional basis that they cite for their

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right to bear arms, I don't see it that different in 50 years. I'd be

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happy to be wrong. British people don't get this, do they? No, I was

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in Texas last year talking to people and I realised... To me it

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seems nonsensical thing that you don't ban automatic weapons that

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are being used to slaughter school kids. But if you go there, you see

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the debate seen in different terms. You do understand the passions and

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discourse there. It makes us physically sick to see these mass

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occurs in schools. I know Connecticut, I am from there. It

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makes us physically sick, but it doesn't lead to reform. What is

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staggering is the response being put forward to slaughtering kids in

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schools. They are now producing bullet-proof school bags, bullet-

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proof equipment for kids, which is... And arm school teachers in

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some places. Absolutely. I don't know where you were in Texas, we

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don't get how remote you can be from official law and order. If you

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were in the American west, you can be miems away. Americans make the

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argument -- miles away. Americans make the argument they need to

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protect themselves. That was certainly true at a certain period

:24:30.:24:33.

of time in American history. I think access to protection and

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indeed, from the government, is there in today's American society.

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I don't think it's up to individuals to address that.

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agree with what everything has been said, except one thing, except

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that's why we live in Europe and don't have that problem. That's why

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the European union is so good. We have more civilised society. Right.

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On that note of salute Apriliness I'm leaving it there. That's all

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