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back at 1pm. Now, it is time for Welcome to Dateline London, at | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
gearian hostage siege and what it means for Mali, France and the | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
international community. Plus the speech that never happened. Has | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
David Cameron raised expectations about Britain in Europe that he | :00:35. | :00:42. | |
cannot fulfil? My guests today are Nabila Ramdani, Marc Roche, Greg | :00:42. | :00:52. | |
:00:52. | :00:55. | ||
Katz and Ian and Ian Birrell. When France decided to send troops to | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
Mali, one leader promised that the gates of hell would open. The | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
attack on the BP gas facility in Algeria was planned before the | :01:04. | :01:13. | |
French intervention, but what can be done about Al-Qaeda? Nabila, | :01:13. | :01:23. | |
:01:23. | :01:25. | ||
maybe you could explain how things are seen from an Algerian prospect. | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
Yes, I think first and foremost western gas and oil facilities, | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
especially in this part of the Samarra are always going to be | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
prime targets for Al-Qaeda related groups and it would be naive to | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
think otherwise, but as far as the Algerian Government is concern, it | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
was always going to do everything it could to protect this hugely | :01:48. | :01:57. | |
lucrative, but also sensitive and vulnerable facility and it is | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
really about politician because it represents a significant proportion | :02:01. | :02:08. | |
of the GDP. But how do they see the potential threat to them from Al- | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
Qaeda? What do they think of these people? Al, Algeria has been | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
fighting Islamic militant groups for decades. You mentioned the dark | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
period of the civil war in the 1990s where the Algerian Government | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
and the Army were fighting those groups ferociously and the | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
background, the history of Algeria is an extremely violent one and it | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
produced ruthless security forces who are always ready to respond in | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
kind to that kind of gangs, sinister gangs effectively. | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
Ian, you know Mali. You are in love with the music of the area and have | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
a lot of connections with Mali. Maybe you could explain why Mali | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
fits into this part of the jigsaw. What What is the Mally connection? | :03:00. | :03:10. | |
-- Mali connection? You have a country that that has been a toll | :03:10. | :03:18. | |
rent country, -- toll rent country. The latest revolution started in | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
the wake of the Libya conflict. Into that, these people are not | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
Islamists. These are people who want their own state, but into the | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
mix in recent years have come a lot of smaller Islamic terrorist groups | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
who are actually gangsters, who have made a lot of money out of | :03:36. | :03:43. | |
smuggling. The Sahara has been a place for smuggling and they have | :03:43. | :03:50. | |
been smuggling cars and guns and drugs and kidnapping tourists. Some | :03:50. | :04:00. | |
of them there is a suspicion has been built up by the Government by | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
the governments. The Islamists have elbowed aside the people who want | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
an independent state and occupied two-thirds of the country and | :04:08. | :04:15. | |
imposed strict interpretation and a distorted interpretation of Sharia | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
law. They have banned everything from social mixing through to music | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
which is unbelievable because there is few countries where music is so | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
entwined with the country and that's the mess we are in there. | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
To add one further layer. Other people people suggested this is an | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
indirect consequence of what happened in Libya because well, | :04:36. | :04:43. | |
there is a lot of guns about. simplistic to say this is a direct | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
direct consequence of what happened in Libya. The one thing you should | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
add this isn't a legacy of western intervention because there was a | :04:53. | :05:02. | |
:05:03. | :05:04. | ||
revolution going in Libya anyway. Forces were fighting and the the | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
tourags were always going to back Gaddafi. | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
This is a consequence of the French military intervention in Mali and | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
the French President said as much and the Algerian support was seen | :05:17. | :05:25. | |
as a further provocation and Al- Qaeda is looking for a spectacular. | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
They know that Western Governments, western populations and western | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
media would respond. Francois Hollande says this proves | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
we were right to go into Mali and help the Government there. Do you | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
think that's how the French people see it? There is unanimity that it | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
was the only thing to do because you had the domino-effect on the | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
whole region if Mali fell to the Islamists and it would have | :05:53. | :06:00. | |
threaten Nigeria because you had a a strong link between the | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
extremeists in both countries. So Francois Hollande, who is perceived | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
as weak, as indecisive, has chosen foreign policy to show that he | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
means business and he has the support, not only of the French | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
people, of the right-wing opposition, but also of the | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
Europeans. And one of the things that he did, | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
was he went to Algeria. He didn't apologise for French colonialism, | :06:31. | :06:41. | |
:06:41. | :06:44. | ||
but he said say, "We understand we didn't get everything right." Are | :06:44. | :06:54. | |
:06:54. | :06:54. | ||
relations good? The refugees from Algeria, who were afraid of that | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
gesture. Francois Hollande is not linked with that because the | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
Algerians vote for the National Front, they don't note for | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
socialists. He did the right thing by apologising and that's why he is | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
coming back in the polls and it is a new Francois Hollande presidency. | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
There has been some irritation here about the lack of communication | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
from the Algerians, not telling us what they were going to do and also | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
some were suggesting they were heavy handed. Is that seen | :07:28. | :07:36. | |
differently in France? Absolutely. The only thing possible since they | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
were threatening hostages was to use force. I don't know what is | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
wrong with the British for saying we should have been asked. We | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
should have been asked for advice. The algear Algerians can do that. | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
They are out of a bloody civil war and they know how to cope with that. | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
They did the right thing. From Washington, there is the | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
matter of the hostages and how many Americans are there and so on, but | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
there is the wider matter that US strategic interests, oil question, | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
friendly nations like Morocco, all of whom could be destabilised by | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
this and Nigeria as well? I think what has happened the US has not | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
been actively involved in this part of Africa and has not been on the | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
top of their agenda and that's changed in the last six weeks and | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
particularly in the last two weeks. I think during the election | :08:28. | :08:35. | |
campaign, Obama didn't want to raise any concerns about anymore | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
foreign policy concerns, but they have no choice, but American | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
interests are at risk here at this point. | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
Some publish diplomats talked about the powers, the Vietnam parallel | :08:48. | :08:56. | |
that you have got a I will legitimate Government and somehow, | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
we seem to be in a position where we have to support them? There is | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
no other choice. You know, if that Government goes, Mali goes. If Mali | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
goes the whole region which is slowly coming out very painfully | :09:11. | :09:18. | |
out of poverty. It has enormous potential to raw material and it | :09:18. | :09:25. | |
will be put into difficulties. I see that Mali point. It came out | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
of a coup, but a lot of people were upset with the way corruption had | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
been allowed to grow so much under the democratic Government. It was a | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
very tired Government and it was unpopular so there were people who | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
weren't antagonist of of what the copy people were saying. The | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
military chiefs look ridiculous because they are saying, "We are | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
going to lead it. We don't need foreigners." They look sidelined so | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
I think this is going to be good in the fight to restore democracy in | :09:56. | :10:05. | |
Mali which is what Malians want. Malians are supportive of the | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
French. The whole country could have fallen under the Islamists. | :10:10. | :10:17. | |
Right, Syria, we have seen tens of thousands dead. Mali, came out of | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
almost nowhere, but you have been talking about it for some years. So | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
you think it is a justifiable intervention and a winnable war? | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
think it is a necessary intervention. I think had they not | :10:30. | :10:38. | |
interyeen, the country -- intervened and Nigeria is one of | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
the biggest oil exporters to the west. | :10:44. | :10:50. | |
Whether it is winnable, time will tell. There are 5,000 or 6 6,000 | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
fight nears the north and it is -- fighters in the north. They will | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
melt back into the desert areas and you will never fully quash them. | :10:59. | :11:06. | |
The biggest question isn't the restoration of democracy, it is how | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
to you resolve the grievances? How do you find a situation where these | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
nomadic people can be satisfied and don't end up trying to get - in | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
returning to the gun to resolve their problems? Where do you think | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
most Algerians and others stand on this western intervention? Well, I | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
think the Algerian president has been pragmatic about it and high on | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
the agenda when Francois Hollande visited him last December were | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
discussions about the situation in Mali. I think it is Algeria is | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
opening up and it is strengthening its relationship to try and deal | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
with the real problem at its its door. So it is about economic | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
corporation, but more and more about military co-operation. We | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
have seen how the Algerian president opened its airspace and | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
its sharing intelligence and he made a very public support for the | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
intervention so they are very worried about this Al-Qaeda problem | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
that needs to be sorted out in the region. | :12:09. | :12:17. | |
Just a couple of minutes left on this. You talked about Muslims in | :12:17. | :12:24. | |
Mali and you talked about the change that is taking place in a | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
lot of countries. I wonder how worried you would be about that and | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
how we should think about that because that has nothing to do with | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
guns directly. Well, the real question at the heart of this, | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
there is a lot of money swelling around in that desert area. People | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
who are fighting for the Islamist are getting money. People are being | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
bribed to go and join their cause. This money isn't coming from that | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
region, it is coming from outside. The suspicion is that the hand of | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
Saudi Arabia is involved there and the truth is that Saudi Arabia is | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
behind a lot of the problems which have caused so much trouble over | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
the last decade and this is something the west does not face up | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
to which is to tackle the root cause of a lot of these problems | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
which is the extreme wEmt but -- wealth that we are seeing coming | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
out of Saudi Arabia. That is the problem that successive | :13:18. | :13:25. | |
American and British administrations doesn't want to | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
talk about. The vast billions that are getting trance transferred from | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
the west to the Saudis and back out to support these groups. Nobody in | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
the administration in Washington wants to talk about it or in the UK | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
for that matter. People recognise there is a link. A | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
link between what people believe and what they do? We have been | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
writing that and saying that for ten years now, but nobody in | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
official Washington will acknowledge it or address it. | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
Let's move on. David Cameron big speech on Europe has been like a | :13:59. | :14:06. | |
never ending dance of the seven veils. Events in Algeria meant he | :14:06. | :14:12. | |
had to cancel going to Holland this week. Anyone with any any views has | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
toll the Prime Minister -- told the Prime Minister what should be in | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
the speech. Has he stirred up more trouble. It is an odd thing to go | :14:22. | :14:32. | |
:14:32. | :14:33. | ||
on about this big speech and not I don't think you can blame him for | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
not actually making it. It is the most absurd hype before a speech. | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
Also, it's a speech which can never satisfy the demands placed on it. | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
It was a complete no-win. Politically it was very bad to | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
allow it to become a toe temic event, worsened by the fact that it | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
wasn't given. When we look at what he was kpweing to say, I think he | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
had a cogent argument, but that's been lost now in the heat of the | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
debate. You used to write speeches for David Cameron. Do they matter? | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
No, I don't think most speeches do matter very much. A big party | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
conference speech makes a big impact and we can remember one or | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
two great speeches over the last couple of decades. But most | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
speeches don't matter very much. That's why it's silly how it's been | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
allowed to get out of hand. must love this. We say to the | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
British, we want to win. But if you want to leave and your dream is | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
becoming Norway, Switzerland and Hong Kong, you leave, but we will | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
not give up the Europe like we meet it. It's not Europe a la carte. | :15:43. | :15:52. | |
There's nothing to repatriot. I find it still, because I got hold | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
of the speech on my way to Amsterdam. He was going to say that | :15:58. | :16:05. | |
Europe is undemock -- undemocratic. The commission is chosen by all the | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
member. The court of justice is more liberal and more protective of | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
human rights than British justice and if there's one undemocratic | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
situation, it's the electoral system in Britain, which is not | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
proportional like European election are. It has no lesson to give us. | :16:23. | :16:31. | |
He should take lesson from us. told. Do we want to have the | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
European debate? I'm not sure. Let's talk about the speech and | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
about Britain's role, because one of the things that has been | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
striking, come to America in a moment, but countries that are | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
friendly to Britain and actually have quite conservative with a | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
small "c" views on how to run an economy like Germany and Sweden, | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
think this is a mistake. They think Cameron is overplaying his hand. | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
Yes but I think it's a domestic matter for Britain almost. I agree | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
with Ian, it was almost impossible to write such a speech. You're | :17:03. | :17:11. | |
dealing with very devicive issues. You're boubd to -- bound to anow a | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
number of people listen to rb -- bound to anow a number of people | :17:16. | :17:25. | |
listening to that speech. Indeed the economic and political powers, | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
as a nation state, but it's all very well blurting out platitudes | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
about the unique role of Britain but it's harder to deliver on what | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
people actually expect from responsible government. I'm sorry | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
to go on that one. The problem of Britain is that they never | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
reconcile Germany, at the time where on Monday, we will have a big | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
party for the 50th anniversary of the Franco-German friendship, here, | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
they still this fear of Germany and that explain a lot of the reaction. | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
Which because in many ways I think you would accept in many ways | :18:02. | :18:10. | |
Britain should be closer to Germany than France. The Royal Family is | :18:10. | :18:18. | |
German. Very close to Germany, it's very close, state aploch. They're | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
obsessed with World War II. Leaving aside the war, the one area I might | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
agree on is Britain and should have formed a closer bond with Germany | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
and then have driven through reforms to an institution which is | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
very undemocratic and is bloated and wasteful and there to service | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
the need of small French farmers which is absurd. The bigger | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
question... A British farmers by the way. Big British farmers. The | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
real fundamental question is the world change -- is change soing | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
fast. You go to Africa, Latin America and Asia and we're dancing | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
on a pin head, agonising over our relationship with Europe when the | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
world is change soing fast. If we're not careful, Britain needs to | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
wake up to what's happening and see how relevant this is. We'll still | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
be arguing over whether we should repatriate powers while the rest of | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
the world has roared ahead Europe say lot less relevant than it was | :19:17. | :19:24. | |
ten years ago. Sure. These internal arguments become somewhat absurd. | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
There's no question that it's bloated and overregulated and | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
10,000 pages of documents when 20 pages would be able to sum it up, | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
but the point is Asia, Latin America, all these places are move | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
ago head quickly. They're sort of laughing at this union, to a degree. | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
I'm struck when you were saying when you were saying that almost | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
the same thing is said by Angela Merkel. She says that Europe has | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
got to wake up, that when the EU was founded we were a very big area | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
in terms of economy, in terms of the rest of the world, big in terms | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
of population, but we are shrinking as part of the cake. We haven't | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
woken up to that, which is another good reason perhaps for Britain and | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
Germany to make more common cause. I agree. It has been mishandled on | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
all sides for many years. It's easy to blame individual politicians now. | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
But the countries have become locked into a ridiculous dance | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
going on and can't see what's really happening. Europe is a | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
success, I'm sorry to say, the Nobel Prize, it's 50 or 60 years of | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
peace and you kpbtd disregard it. America has said during the week | :20:30. | :20:36. | |
that Europe is very important and that Britain should be in. In terms | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
of standard of living, in terms of economy despite the crisis, Europe | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
is still, with the Welfare State... We they can't afford the well stair | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
-- Welfare State. We can't afford it Where is the growth? Yes, the | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
wine is good, the health care is g, the roads are good, the trains are | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
pretty good, but where is the growth? Well the growth will come | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
from more integration in the EU. That's how the growth will come. | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
The growth will come any way because there will be a relaunch of | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
the economy and it will be great. And the example of Britain where no | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
growth has been created through austerity, while we have, at least, | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
we don't do such hard austerity and the growth will come because we are | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
a big ensemble where we trade together. Holloway said he was | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
going to -- Holland e said he would expand and he's had to restract. | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
lot of governments realise it's a good ideal, but it hasn't been | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
working terribly well. It has been working very well. You know 27 | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
countries coming together, becoming a super power. On the level of | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
America, being regarded by the Chinese as the Indian as a | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
superpower. I think they would dispute that. It's been working to | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
great success. The eurozone crisis has shown there are problems but it | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
is a way of being solved. I just want to ask about one other big | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
story this week. Many people would think it's important, gun control | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
in America. Here we have the President saying I'm going to do | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
something and I need Congress to help. As soon as Congress to help | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
comes out of his mouth, it's not going to happen. No, it's not. This | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
is incredibly hard for Britons and Europeans to understand, but our | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
domestic situation is so gridlocked over the issue and the idea that | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
there would be significant movement in Congress, it's just not in the | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
cards, not under Obama or the next President. I don't think it is | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
likely to change. But is it ever going to change? I heard one | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
American commentator saying, it took 75 years to get slave riff out | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
of the constitution and it was perfectly legal to do certain | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
things. It's perfectly legal to do certain things now, but there is a | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
parallel, we can change, but it will take a long time. Attitudes | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
have changed on gay marriage, civil rights litigation has changed. All | :23:03. | :23:09. | |
that has changed. I see the gun lobby as perpetual and self- | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
perpetuating. The constitutional basis that they cite for their | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
right to bear arms, I don't see it that different in 50 years. I'd be | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
happy to be wrong. British people don't get this, do they? No, I was | :23:23. | :23:30. | |
in Texas last year talking to people and I realised... To me it | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
seems nonsensical thing that you don't ban automatic weapons that | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
are being used to slaughter school kids. But if you go there, you see | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
the debate seen in different terms. You do understand the passions and | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
discourse there. It makes us physically sick to see these mass | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
occurs in schools. I know Connecticut, I am from there. It | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
makes us physically sick, but it doesn't lead to reform. What is | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
staggering is the response being put forward to slaughtering kids in | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
schools. They are now producing bullet-proof school bags, bullet- | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
proof equipment for kids, which is... And arm school teachers in | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
some places. Absolutely. I don't know where you were in Texas, we | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
don't get how remote you can be from official law and order. If you | :24:17. | :24:24. | |
were in the American west, you can be miems away. Americans make the | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
argument -- miles away. Americans make the argument they need to | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
protect themselves. That was certainly true at a certain period | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
of time in American history. I think access to protection and | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
indeed, from the government, is there in today's American society. | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
I don't think it's up to individuals to address that. | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
agree with what everything has been said, except one thing, except | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
that's why we live in Europe and don't have that problem. That's why | :24:51. | :25:01. | |
the European union is so good. We have more civilised society. Right. | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
On that note of salute Apriliness I'm leaving it there. That's all | :25:05. | :25:10. |