20/04/2013 Dateline London

There's a full bulletin of news at 1pm. Now on BBC News, Dateline

Hello and welcome to Dateline London. The bomb attack on Boston.

Robert Mugabe's apparently endless rule in Zimbabwe. And as British

politicians reflect on the Thatcher legacy, are any of them really up

to seizing the Thatcher mantle? My guests today are Saul Sadka of Al

London, Ian Birrell of the Daily Mail, Nabila Ramdani, who is a

French Algerian writer and Tererai Karimakwenda of SW Radio Africa.

Welcome to you all. The motivation behind the bomb

attack on the Boston marathon remains a matter of speculation.

Although one suspect is dead, one is in custody, and both have a

background in Chechnya. What do we make of the attack itself, the

possibility being discussed in the United States that the suspects

radicalised themselves rather than being formally part of a wider

group, and the re-shaping of both Al-Qaeda and the intelligence

services since 9/11? It is still a lot of speculation, but what the

image of what we know so far? need to work out what is it that

sparked this sudden need for extreme violence and out the

American dream turns into a nightmare? What the story really

tells us is that, in my view, the UN weapons are too freely available

in American society, and far too easily used. This is part of the

discussion, whether this is American home-grown terrorism, even

though they have roots elsewhere, or is it something else with

possible links to Islam, Al-Qaeda, foreign fighters and so on. It is a

simple case of gun-control. There is massive violence in the country,

and they were typical American youngsters who used violence to

devastating effects. One of the brothers went to Chechnya last year.

There is a great deal of influence over there, I am talking about the

capital city of Dagestan, where his father lives. He met with some

members of a group called the grip of the -- Group of the Shariad.

lot of information is available on the internet, but is your

information suggest part of the group? I do not think so, I think

they were individuals. The thing is, that they receive the instructions

of how to prepare a pressure cooker bomb from various websites on the

internet. There is Pillaton gang who were jailed for three days ago,

they were getting in touch with the famous magazine of Alker leader,

seeing exactly under the influence of their head preacher who was

killed, how to prepare a bomb in your mother's kitchen. A person

does not get radicalised from one trip to Chechnya. What was

happening in his life before that? You do not just turn like that in

one trip. We know that these kids did not grow up there. They were

born in Kurdistan, parents moved to Dagestan when the war broke out

there. They then moved to the United States. So what was

happening in the United States, where they spent the majority of

delights? The tie with Chechnya, it is too soon to dwell on that. Maybe,

maybe not. We do not know. This has taught us a lot in terms of the

media about putting out information before we are sure. As the story

developed, there was lots of information, he was dead, he was

shot, so we need to slow down and take time to learn what maize --

made these kids this way. What we are really seeing again, as we saw

in Spain and Britain, is this thing where you get second-generation

kids who grew up in a society, and they go to school there and are

well-educated and all the rest of it, but something turns and they

become embittered about it and develop our vision of their

religion and of their society, and in their anger, they find a way and

a radicalised and use the internet and go to extremist sources, and go

to extreme places where they carry out an attack like that. I think

the link is much closer. I do not agree that it is just about the

violence in America, but I think it is linked to the second generation.

It fits in with a narrative we are seeing too much of in America, that

of young people taking up arms against their own, and surely the

availability of weapons has a lot to do with that. The story is

typically about young Americans living the American Dream. They are

sons of immigrant backgrounds, which is what America is all about.

They were described as good kids by family and friends. I see it as

part and parcel of an undeniable sickness rate at the heart of

American society, and the fact we have just seen the gun-control

members rejected highlights the difficulty in dealing with this.

do not disagree about gun control, but how does that differ from the

kids in Spain or Britain who have found other ways to express their

anger and bitterness, not through guns, but threw explosives? When

people are radicalised, there is always a way to do it. But it would

be much more difficult to express anger in that manner. But it is

wrong to say this is a story about America, because those people, if

you look back at their history, then this sort of nightmare.

President of Chechnya said, what do you want from us? We have not seen

them for the last 12 years! Can we touch on a wider point, which is

radicalisation, a theme which goes to different countries and cultures.

Are we in a situation where, rather like the cold war, they do some

kind of security aspect, military aspect, but there is a war of

ideas? There are plenty of ideas available to everyone on the

internet, it is easy to get them and for some people to become

radicalised, and that is what we should look at, as much as being

able to pick tax on the streets because you are worried about bombs

going off? There is a similarity with some of the Muslim Pakistani

young generation's youth, who have been dwelling with the idea of

trying to commit G -- jihad. You're right, one does not have to go to

training comes, you can sit in front of the community or --

computer and be influenced by head preachers and Alker you are

websites on these kind of things which make them more committed --

Al-Qaeda websites. There was one guy accused in the July 7th bombing,

he was well-educated, well- integrated into British society,

the same as these kids. The same as the Glasgow Airport bombing. The

19-year-old wanted to be a doctor. Yes, a brain surgeon. Especially

with his global economic downturn, a lot of kids are hanging around

with nothing to do, and have access with all of this information online.

They cannot get a job because they are not there, and they get under

that what they call the system in general. If you have time on your

hands, a pressure cooker is not difficult to find. You can buy it

anywhere. We go beyond even gun control. It can be anything to

motivate them. We do not know what was behind us. We might not find

out. If you look at the 7/7 bombers, they talk about Iraq, Western

foreign policy, so there might be a connection with that and there

might not. And whether websites like Al-Qaeda And spire, all of

those questions come into play. -- Inspire. These are tiny groups, and

it is a worry that this might be sure rise in Islamaphobia. There

was some untutored as a suspect Longley, when he was just watching

the marathon. Some of the headlines were completely irresponsible, the

jihad brothers. In Syria, they were quoted as saying we have a Boston

every day, and the Americans do not understand. The good news from many

parts of Africa in recent years is one of economic opportunity -

higher commodity prices, and in many cases better governance than

in the past. One exception remains Zimbabwe where the regime of Robert

Mugabe clings on and where this week the country has been

celebrating its independence. With so much change all around him, how

does Mugabe do it? And with what consequences for what should be a

prosperous country? How have the celebrations for

independence been? The Prime Minister said we have... -- we have

no basic freedoms. Just last week, the United Nations mission, which

was going to the country to assess the situation on the ground to

decide whether to give money for elections are not, was blocked from

entering the country because Zanu- PF does not want conditions. He

wants the money without the conditions. This was a United

Nations mission blocked from entering the country. We are

celebrating independence at a time where the coalition government is

basically powerless. Robert Mugabe still runs the army, the police,

they still back him, and he is again at his old age, the only

candidate going to run for President for Zanu-PF. So he will

win. You think the election will go ahead in May? He said he wants the

election at the end of June, June 29th. But the other parties in

government are not one that, they say it is too early. They won

September. Are you disappointed about this? This, many people view

the party as having become comfortable. There than a coalition

government, they are good and a monthly salary, and people say they

have become comfortable and forgotten where they came from and

what they were fighting. We are going to have elections with most

of the reforms that they agreed to when they formed a coalition not

having been implemented. There is still no free media, no basic

freedoms of assembly and a rate to progress. -- the right to progress.

There are still no freedoms. often write about the good news and

the good things that happen and Africa. Zimbabwe must be a

disappointment. It is growing quite fast, so we should not forget that.

Robert Mugabe is the front man for a small group of officers at the

top of the army and the security forces, controlling a country and

to fleecing the country and stealing the mineral wealth from

the diamond mines. But it is not a unique story. You can point to

other countries, a lot of the African success is despite the

Government's, not because of them. The Government remains a big

problem. -- poor government. You have to look at some were like you

gonna wear the President says the biggest problem in Africa is big

men who do not leave power. He is still there are several decades

later and doing very well out of it with his big home and all the rest

of it. The Governor of the Bank of Zimbabwe announced a couple of days

ago that the country has only $167 in its coffers. Not in his pocket,

in the entire account of the Bank of Zimbabwe. Robert Mugabe

celebrated his 89th birthday a couple of days ago, in a football

stadium, in which he was given a huge cake and $89, each dollar for

every year of his life, and the party itself cost $600,000. You

should also mention that today, in Zimbabwe, there is a constitutional

referendum. The referendum was held already last month. But this is

after an extremely expensive outrage programme in which they

went around the country asking people what they would like to see.

It was approved by 95%. But the problem is that what the people

said what they wanted in terms of the constitution, was then ignored

because Zanu-PF, Robert Mugabe's party refused to honour much of

what the people said they wanted, and they pretend their own demands.

-- they put in their own demands. But was negotiated between the

rounded up, lawyers were taken in. Although it was peaceful, the

indication is that it will be a horrific run-up to the election.

Unfortunately Zimbabwe does not have much to celebrate. There is always

something deep Lee depressing about a country which has been led by the

same person for decades. We we have Robert Mugabe marking 33 years in

power. He has come to symbolise everything that is wrong with

Zimbabwe, and a racy it, Africa. Political strife and oppression,

poverty are all commonplace. He has stated that the aim of his land

reform, which was to take white owned commercial farms and give them

over to black hands, -- to being black lands, led to a disaster.

People living on green handouts. Mugabe is just the front man. It is

easy to get too hung up on Mugabe. He is at the front of a small group

of people who are running the country. We have to be careful to

draw a comparison with the whole of Africa and there is. It is 50

countries. You are totally right. We have diamonds that discovered in

Zimbabwe now. It hundred million dollars worth of diamond exports

last year brought money to the country, but only �45 million -- $45

million made that to the National Treasury, so all that money is going

to supporting the Mugabe regime. Many American politicians have tried

to were the mantle of Ronald Reagan. And no the new Venezuelan president

is trying to emulate Hugo Chavez. Is it dangerous for politicians to make

any comparisons with big figures from the past because of comparison

is not good for the image. What you make of all of that. It has been an

extraordinary week with the funeral of Mrs that. Is there a Thatcher

mantle that people want to grab hold of? I think it has been difficult

for the government and the Prime Minister in particular to negotiate

its way through this. People always look at the past. Thatcher was a

divisive figure in this country. Some of his early modernisation was

against what she said, but some of it is extending and continuing it.

He has managed to navigate his way quite successfully, whereby he is

avoiding too much comparison and equally avoiding too much criticism

over it. I take it nobody will be trying to have their mantle of

Maghaberry. But there is one African leader, and who will be able to live

up to him. Nelson Mandela. He left power. Exactly. That is a lesson

that they all should have learned. Nelson Mandela can still walk around

the purest parts of Africa alone with no bodyguard. From an African

perspective, it has been interesting what other leaders have said about

her. It says a lot about the lady. There was an interesting piece

written about her, which said that Margaret Thatcher helped to bring

peace to South Africa and independence by bringing together

the last president under apartheid and Nelson Mandela. He said that she

was able to see that change was already coming to South Africa by

1983. So-called coloured and Indian people had been included in

Parliament. Extensive rights had been given, and the government was

realising that they would have to give more rights to black people.

Thatcher saw that that was changing and did not want to jeopardise that

speed of reform. But the rest of the world did not see this and they

wanted to redouble the sanctions that were being put against the

apartheid regime. And because Margaret Thatcher said let us not

double the sanctions and engage the South Africans without any more

colossal white, he credits her -- without any more like -- killing, he

credits her with bringing that about. It is dangerous to make

comparisons with the past, do you think? Whatever your views on

Margaret Thatcher, she was a woman of her type. She was a beast who was

there to fate the great battles of post-war Britain. We live in a farm

more consolatory and consensual age. We have coalition government.

And discussions are far less polarised. The Telegraph are

actually asking today, does David Cameron have the stomach for a

fight? The straightforward and is no. He has proved to be a likeable

precisely because the Conservative party had this tag about being the

nasty party, and he has undone all of that. She had great majorities

for the Tory party and he has not done that. She had the dog a

determination that we do not see any more. Do is really politicians tried

to measure up to the past? That would be a catastrophe. I was

covering as a journalist Margaret Thatcher's to previous terms. I had

a lot of respect for her, but I was that after she died. She was

pestering the following Prime Minister is about her funeral. It

made me feel uncomfortable about this. They'd had a political

undercurrent to it which I did not like. This put her in a slightly

relatively negative weight as far as I am concerned. I you surprised

about your reaction to that, given that you admired many of the things

that she did? I think that she saved Britain from being a third World

country run by hotheaded trade union bosses, but after the while she lost

the plot. I understood why her so-called friends wanted to get rid

of her at the end of the decade. important thing about being strong

willed is that when you are right and you stick to it works very well

and when you are wrong and you are not open you could do damage to a

lot of people. I think the consensus among global leaders is that that

was a good quality to have, but when you come back home here, that is

when a lot of the damage was done and people are unhappy with it.

you think any of this has changed David Cameron underway that he

approaches things? He does not have a majority so you cannot do and

Margaret Thatcher, whatever people say. But he has to be resolute

because he is set on an economic course and it would we disastrous to

turn us back. In many ways it is as tough as what Margaret Thatcher had

to do. Given the economic circumstances and his reforms. They

can benefit to some extent when people delve below the terrible

headlines and the silliness of the coalition politics and look at some

of the things he is doing. You can actually see a lane between the two

leaders despite the fact that there are so different.

That would depend slightly more on the British waters. Do you think in

terms of the funeral, after this has settled down, do you think there

will be a lot that still lasts of the Thatcher legacy. Are we all

Thatcher rates now, or is that a bit of hyperbole? I think it was

emotional. It will feed into the past. It allows the country to come