06/07/2013 Dateline London

at the top of the hour. Now it is London. .

Well, Britain like most western demock drassies was put in an

awkward position by the ousting of Egypt's President Morsi. In this

case, was the elected Egyptian Government so divisive and such a

disaster for most Egyptians that we should be glad Morsi has gone and

that the army did it? You came back last night? Yes.How do you see

things now? Actually I can understand the western point of

view, but I would like to remind people of the great book, The Open

Society and Its Enemies. What is going on is a corrective process to

stop the prediction which was aired many years ago about the Islamists

who when they reached power, once it is in one vote, one time. We don't

want to be in one time, we need it to be all the time. The Army has

just set the scene for the democratic process to take place.

The new in the president is not an army general, he is the head of the

constitutional court. They are looking for a Prime Minister to be

appointed and that Prime Minister could be ElBaradei. Mohamed

ElBaradei? Yes. He said from now on we don't need a God president, we

need a manager president to take care of the country. I talked to

someone from the Muslim Brotherhood who said need to get over that they

lost? People don't understand the legitimacy of the election. There

comes the legitimacy of good governments and performance and they

failed. They weakened the police and they kept the police weakened in

order to put a proposal that popular militias which is brotherhood

militias take over the security of the country. They attacked the

preeminent Islamic institution in the world because they wanted to get

people who are less educated to control the country in their own

ways and they discriminated. You could it with your own eyes. This

was an attempt to discriminate against the people.

Just one other point on this because you on this programme defended the

Muslim Brotherhood before in terms of democracy and their right to run.

You have changed your mind? I had to change my mind because I tried to

maintain my integrity as an Egyptian intellectual. When people took to

the streets on 30th June, there was a discrepancy about the numbers, but

the lower number which was aired was 20 million plus. President Morsi

spoke to Mr Obama on the phone and told him that it was 160,000. I

understand that Google Earth and other detection means have awarded

the Egyptian administration the Guinness Book Of Records number! And

I mean, I tried to defend the Muslim Brotherhood, but I am I cannot help

people defend them. This list was taken by the people who raided their

head quarters and it is all over the internet in Egypt and elsewhere and

someone read it on Egyptian television. It has the names in

Arabic and English and signatures and the sums received from Quata

qa ta is paying members of the Muslim Brotherhood? Yes sums from

$250,000 to $850,000. This is extraordinary, you well

know, Ann, Egypt is pivotal to the elected and they have changed their

minds in a short time and they throw them out. This is not good for

democracy, but I was thinking about that. Hitler was elected

democratically, he cheated his way into win as indeed did the

brotherhood did, bribe bribing with oil and flour and this sort of

thing. But first of all, when there was, I think in 1944 the army ps

attempted attempted truce? They did it too late and they didn't succeed.

Now, can we say well, he was democratically elected and

therefore, they shouldn't even try... But he wasn't a democrat?But

he wasn't and neither is the brotherhood because I remember

interviewing in Cairo a while back the previous supreme guide and we

talked about it and he was smooth and sophisticated. The people at the

top are not the sort of peasant thickos who are there, foot soldiers

so to speak and I was almost late for the athe pointment because --

the appointment because of the traffic and he said "our slogan is

Islam is the answer." I said" what is Islam's answer to the traffic

jams? "His answer was" when we have a Sharia ruled State these things

will sort themselves out because we will be doing Allah's will. "

interesting to hear Abdulla who has been in Egypt. What have we been

doing in the western world the last week or so? We have been having

debates about semantics. Is it a coup or is it not a coup? So you had

endless conversations about well, it is true the army deposed the

president who was elected, but the people asked the army to do it.

Therefore, it is not a coup. It shows how, you know, it shows

perhaps the 50 shades of democracy and the genesis of democracy is a

murky one. But it shows there is a great appetite for democracy in

Egypt, does it not? Of course. Of course. Of course then we turn into

Turkey. Before what happened in Tahrir Square because that was the

model. Here is a moderate Islamist if there is such a thing who managed

to tame the army. No coups for a generation, but the people take

charge. Legitimacy is in the hands of the people in the UK it is in the

hands of the Parliament. So all this, I mean, we are lost for words

base clay. The way we can avoid using the C word. Let's use a

different word. The money would get stopped by America because legally

they cannot give money... It is not just semantics? The US, we give $1.

5 billion in aid, almost all to the army and it is determined that a

military, illegal deposed a Government, we are supposed to stop

that aid. Nobody in the administration or Congress has been

willing to go that he extra step to say this was a I will leu legitimate

swipe -- an ill legitimate swipe of power. You can mourn how it happened

and I think we can be agreeing on that, what you said earlier about

this administration being divisive and incompetent. Plenty of

democratically governments are all of those, but they don't get booted

out by the military. The ballot box is one pillar of democracy. This

started with... In terms of the violence, that must be the worry?

People have been shot and who has been doing the shooting? People have

been shot and the first shots came from the Islamic brotherhood, the

Muslim Brotherhood. The firs three people to be killed were army

soldiers and it was a threat and the incitement came from them. They

said" if you throw water on Morsi, we will throw blood on you. "Three

or four TV stations which were of his lambic tendencies so to --

Islamic tendencies so to speak. The military spent a number of days

trying to convince Morsi that matters could go out of hand and

they got people to speak to him. He did not want to listen and people

were agitated in the street, peaceful as it was all the time

until the 4th July. Morsi spoke on 2nd July and then he spoke on 3rd

July and you could never feel a president out-of-touch with his feel

to that extent. Never. He was talking as if his legitimacy was God

given legitimacy and anyone who goes against him will go against Allah. I

spoke with a taxi driver who had a long beard and he spoke to me about

supporting the Islamic project and solution. I told him my friend,

there is no Islamic project and solution. There is a successful

solution and there is a failing solution and any successful solution

could be Islamic, Christian, Jewish, whatever because it is responding to

the requirements and the needs of people. If you bring a failing

solution and try to make it Islamic you will insult Islam without

knowing you are insulting Islam. Was he persuaded by your logic?

Well, he could not respond. He said" sir, that's it. "Because people are

in indoctrinated into means like submission and obedience.

We cannot overestimate the significance of this moment.

Because, of course, Egypt's particular place in the Arab world,

but you know, the West, I think, has got too hooked on the ballot box as

being the definition of democracy. As Abdulla is pointing out, it is

not the only thing. In fact, what produces proper democracy are

strong, stable, incorrupt institutions. Almost the act of

going and voting is the icing on the cake. You have to create the cake

first. Now, we have seen enough so-called democracy in parts of the

world where the ruler always goes 98. 8.6% endorsemed and we are

democrat cli elected. -- democratically elected, of course,

they are not and we think isn't it wonderful to see queues of people

going in to vote. They voted the anti-Democratic Party.

Are you optimistic? This could go wrong, couldn't it? Well, it could.

I mean I guess they need to start with constitution, you know. They

need to write one that is a national reconciliation. They need to,

religious extremists and secularists must live together. There is 80

million people. And also the army has to play, I mean the army could

play a good role, you know, but they have also to accept that you know

civil society needs to play its role, are I mean to be as strong as

well. I mean... Civil society?Yes. I know

you are a sentimental revolutionary The thing is there is no revolution

has ever had immediate good effects. Your revolution... The French

Revolution? They ended up with a long civil war. So there is always a

period where things go wrong and this is going to be no exception.

Let's end this with your thoughts about optimism or otherwise. How do

you see it? Well, I have a cautious optimism because there was a call in

the meeting in which General Al-Sisi and the Pope and the people and

everyone spoke. They said we are not excludeing anyone. We invited them

to take part and the aim is to work very hard and quickly for a

constitution and election within six months. I hope this will succeed.

The constitution of the Islamists was discussed for nine months and

then ratified in one night. Right. Executing everyone else. Now, we

need an incruise cliff society -- incruisive society in which --

inclusive society in which everyone feels a full citizen. OK, let's move

on because the leader of the Labour Party, Ed Miliband, became leader

over his brother David thanks to support from the trade union

movement. It is awkward for Ed Miliband that a scandal has blown

up. How serious is this for Ed Miliband and Labour? It is tricky,

isn't it? Can't live with them, can't live without them? Most of the

recent Labour leaders we have seen had run-ins with the unions. Because

of the history of unions with Labour, it is difficult. I think Ed

Miliband is caught between a rock and a hard. Place. He has low

personal approval ratings and this won't help him. People may not like

the Tories, but they can't see Ed Miliband as Prime Minister. And it

does go up and down, but it is true that Ed Miliband has polled worse

than his party, but Cameron polled better than his party. On the

personality thing? It has become more important in Britain when you

have televised debates with elections and the word is supposedly

that Ed Miliband wants to confront the unions more directly and

diminish their influence, but because money is the mother's milk

of politics, we will see how far that goes. You are talking about

diminished influence, and that is happening with the trade unions. But

to sever the link between Labour and the trade unions, they have funded

the Labour Party since 1900. There is a lot of hypocrisy in this, the

Conservatives saying, oh, look, Ed Miliband is the plaything of the

trade unions, but it is better to be the plaything of the trade unions

than to be like the Conservative Party, the plaything of the city and

bankers. We might come onto David Cameron's problems in a moment. The

other way of looking at it is that if Ed Miliband handles it correctly,

whatever that is, the British people might say he is one of those labour

leaders who stood against militants or Tony Blair against clause four,

Suite to -- he could define himself in the way he has not as yet.

have been irregularities, and Unite has behaved in a very awkward way,

and this should be resolved, but talking about severing the links

once and for all with the trade unions, yes, but it is hypocrisy.

First of all, the Labour Party cannot dump the unions at the

moment. Since Ed Miliband was elected to the Labour leadership,

and that was largely through Unite, that was his support, they have

given �8 million. Nowadays, ridiculously so, elections are

incredibly expensive. So they would go nude into the ballot box if they

did not have any money. , so to speak. Len McCluskey, this charming

old time socialist from way back, whose Bible is the ragged trousered

philanthropists and all that. He has possibly boxed himself into a

corner. He lost his temper and he started lecturing Ed Miliband about

the history, and I think even some of his union members might say, hang

on, roll back, because you cannot afford to lose this. A very bright

Conservative MP pointed out that probably one third of union members

vote Conservative. So to lecture union members about what they should

do does not think about independent minded. He also uses the word

socialism. The Labour Party don't want you to mention that word any

more. But it is very serious for Ed Miliband. I don't think he will ever

become Prime Minister, because I'm afraid it is the way he looks, and

these things are important in a telegenic age. You want Hugh Grant

instead? No, I just don't want somebody who looks like Gromit from

Wallace and Gromit. They think he does not look like a Prime Minister.

There has to be some kind of balance between the Labour Party as an

expression of the labour movement in politics and the labour movement in

terms of organised trade unions. When it appears to the voters that

the unions are overriding the decision of their party leader, that

is not good for the Labour Party. Under the balance has to be

restored. Unfortunately, the Labour Party is in a transitional period at

this time, and I think when it comes to the next election, the Labour

Party will be different in terms of leadership and Outlook, probably.

the last section I wanted to talk about the vote for an in or out

referendum on the EU. And is there not a parallel between Ed

Miliband's problems with the trade unions, and David Cameron and John

Major's, all of the Tory leaders in between, with the most Eurosceptic

or Europhobic people on the right wing of the party? It is all right

to say it is just a few swivel eyed loons on the far right of the Tory

party, but public opinion has gradually become more and more

anti-EU. Although he was just playing this game, I think, that we

will allow this Private members Bill, this is David Cameron. He was

playing games, just to sort of say that he did want is to have a

referendum but rather like St Augustine said, please make me a

martyr, but not yet. He is going to delay it. It is quite difficult for

the right wing in his party to unseat him. The other thing is that

he panicked over UK -- UKip. I think they peaked, because I think Nigel

Raj - Farage, the only star that they had, he is getting on people 's

nerves, and they are starting to think, no. They came down in the

opinion polls. What do you think about the difficulties that David

Cameron has got with the right wing as a parallel? This is something

that does not go away from Conservative leaders, just as the

question of handling the unions does not go away for Labour leaders.

is the hot potato. It is interesting to see it from a European

perspective, as continentals wonder when the pantomime. . It is a kind

of Carnival. A kind of masquerade. I am not sure, I think the latest poll

said that Europe was the IRD number one of 2% of the British people.

That is not what they really care about. -- was the number one

priority. It is not just a continent that looks at it and thinks it is a

fast, you can ask the electorate, do you want to stay or leave, but is

this actually what you care about? There is always a cry for a

referendum now, which is silly. I think it was a stunt. The vote does

not bind anybody to anything. And in any case, you cannot bind an

incoming government to watch you have already passed, unless you are

having to win it. What would be the view of Egypt in the priorities of

2017 and a referendum? It is a nice way of putting the question, but I'm

not best qualified to answer, because I am British as well.

dual nationality. In Britain there is a nostalgic feeling about the

island empire, so to speak. I am old enough. If you ask in the street,

young people of 20, do you mourn the loss of empire question what they

will say, you what? I think it is the island mentality. There is a

feeling of jealousy about European independence and not being a part of

Europe as indicated as needs be. You deal with Europe, but you need to

make a bridge. I do not know how to be European and maintain your

nationality with that kind of guarded nurse to that extent. I

think there has to be some kind of balance. I feel Egyptian, Arab,

British, a citizen of the world and I don't have a problem with this,

provided that I do not use any of this to feel better than anyone

else. The other thing that struck me listening to the 2% priority of

people, although people fiddled figures, but it is minority

interest. There are worries in the Labour Party with the union row

meaning that people were turned off politics, and there must be worries

in the Conservative Party that if they are talking to themselves on

this issue then people are turned off politics at a time when it is

possible that MPs might get a pay rise, when no one else is getting

one. It does seem a rather odd system Dahmer doesn't it? Mind you,

on the playwright -- pay rise thing. It was decided that Singapore lives

in a sea of corruption, so how do you stop corruption? You give the

representatives whacking great pay rises, and stop them having

independent businesses, and corruption disappeared overnight.

And in the last index of transparency, the corruption index,

Singapore is the only country in the top five who is not a Nordic

country. And you think there is a link? There is a link. I didn't

believe it myself, I thought it was ridiculous, but it worked out.

rise for MPs, you heard it here first. And journalists excavation at