07/09/2013 Dateline London

I will be back with a full bulletin of news at the top of the hour.

Now, dateline London with Gavin Esler.

Hello and welcome to Dateline London. Countries divided between

themselves at the G20 and within themselves at home over Syria. The

election which could determine election which could determine the

future shape not just of Germany, but also the EU. And the BBC's

Dmitry Shishkin BBC Global News. are Agnes Poirier of Marianne.

divided over what to do over Syria, Catherine Mayer of Time magazine.

divided over what to do over Syria, specifically the US and Russia,

remain divided at the G20. remain divided at the G20.

But countries are opinion in Britain and the US

brought against intervening while they leaders remain in favour.

accepts? That is certainly what many accepts? That is certainly what many

Putin is prepared to accept. Yes and no. I think he would never accept

the fact he would sign on the dotted line, saying, let the killing

continue, but he would only like to go through the security council.

That is what he has been applying to lots of situation in the past. Do

you think that Western countries, like Britain, have blown it

diplomatically by assisting —— insisting Assad cannot be part of

the solution? Rumack —— yesterday, during the press conference, you

could could see there is a stark

difference between the press conferences and the tone of the

psychologically and physically. He psychologically and physically. He

was feeling as if he got more from that summer, rather than anyone

else. Whereas, Obama looked a bit dejected and tired, a little bit out

of sorts. The general population feeling in Russia is to support the

President. The comparison is being drawn with other countries, and

people in Russia are supporting something, the majority, through the

state channels and the propaganda on the major GV and other sources, show

that Putin is sticking to the norms of international law. Unlike other

countries which would like the world of the G20, it is kind of

deviate. In the coverage all around the world of the G20, it is kind of

missing the point, it is not set up to solve Syria. It was effectively

there. Why would we expected to set up to improve the world economy,

produce anything? Precisely. Before that, we had been talking about

whether the Edward Snowden situation would have harmed the agenda or not.

But it is not about that. Where do you think this leaves Francois

Hollande? If countries are divided among themselves, it is also true in

France, he cannot go it alone. He will not, without the US. Isn't ——

it is interesting. There was a debate in the French Parliament but

they did not get to vote on it. And they did not get to vote on it. And

the French are extremely split, the the French are extremely split, the

question is not like Libya, and Francois Hollande is in a very

difficult situation. It is brought about by the British Parliament

because just a week ago, everyone was so gung ho, expecting strikes in

the next 48 hours. And then, David Cameron did something he did not

need to, to seek the approval of Parliament, he did not get it, he

took it rather badly and then, even Obama, who is at heart an

isolationist, did not need to seek the approval of Congress, but he

did, probably because of what David Cameron did. And now, Francois

Hollande just said yesterday at the Hollande just said yesterday at the

G20 that he was going to await the UN inspectors' results. So now, what

are we going to do? Even Obama did not look very comfortable yesterday.

John Kerry making the case for war, and

John Kerry making the case for war, professorial, there are

personalities and play but it sounded like a different degree of

personalities and play but it enthusiasm.

go back to the UN, but you are saying Putin wants to go via the UN

route. He was mentioning something about waiting until the report

the UN inspectors... But that is going to say yes.

the UN inspectors... But that is is leaving a little

are presented to the world and they are presented to the world and they

have signed off, it would be really hard for him to continue. As Obama

got the political will or are they waiting for him to make a mistake

you make is your sense that the US you make is your sense that the US

more broadly, the politicians will see this is such an important

matter, they are prepared to fall in behind the President? I don't think

so. You described this at the so. You described this at the

about nations divided in about nations divided

themselves, and obviously, that is themselves, and obviously, that is

the great narrative of American politics, since Obama's election and

before, this polarisation in before, this polarisation in

America. And it goes down to the granular politics of the way that

Congress works, or does not work. And so, this is part of the problem.

Cameron opened this huge Pandora's ox —— box by presenting this as

something he consulted on, because there is no real possibility of

getting what looks like inventing unity, although there are very

slender possibilities in most slender possibilities in most

parliaments and governments and legislatures of the world. So you

have a real problem here. I think it is interesting and horrible what is

going on, because this is the continuation of that narrative that

started with Iraq and Afghanistan, the leaching away of credibility of

the political classes. Now, coming to a different version of that

narrative, which is the actual resulting impotence, so you have

narrative, which is the actual in power, but obviously, the price

President, the guy who came into these terrible images

President, the guy who came into power talking about an clenching

fists, who is now at the mercy of the different parts of his

legislature and different legislature and different

governments around the world and no one really knows how this will play

out. There is this horrible vacuum, certainly, the answer is not the UN.

If part of this story in the West at least is the importance of fostering

democracy in the Arab world and democracy in the Arab world and the

in Syria, you have to look at in Syria, you have to look at

are broadly against it. That is just are broadly against it. That is just

the waiters. —— you have to look at democracy at home. That is just the

way it is. We have not actually put way it is. We have not actually put

this to a vote, we have not had a party supporting this policy

standing against another one who does not supported, all you have is

an opinion poll. But you have an opinion poll. But you have

representatives in the House of Commons reflecting what they believe

should not do it. We can either look should not do it. We can either look

at the figures and say, that's it, end of discussion, that is the way

they voted. But they have not voted in favour of anything. Not any kind

of strategy. The opposition never give them a strategy which they

could support. The outlining fact is that we have had a chemical weapons

attack, which has killed at least 1500 people in Syria, which you

would imagine, would normally get an would imagine, would normally get an

international response, and we are unable to provide it. There is a

danger of lapsing into a degree of danger of lapsing into

response. You might normally impotence. You said

that the literal leaders and thinking their fates of morality are

based on what they think are in their best interest. Nobody in

country, or from people like you and me, even knows where Halabja is.

They are not looking at it and saying, we are a bit inconsistent.

there is a very significant People are

there is a very significant pessimistic stand in Democratic

politics at the moment, not just in Britain but in a lot of places

around the world. I think that is true. It is making it exceptionally

difficult to make interventions on difficult to make interventions on

the world stage that actually are required. If you want to look for

common ground in these situation where they say there is common

ground between Putin and Kamran and ground between Putin and Kamran and

Obama, what you are actually finding is that the real common ground is

that able really do not necessarily want Assad to go. That is the

problem. You mean they want him to problem. You mean they want him to

go on G20 dream that no, it is that what they cannot cop with is what

the aftermath would be. There is Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Libya was

this UN backed this UN backed mission, quite

successful, and it looked, Obama looked at it, thinking, great! Look

at today's Libya, it is a bit at today's Libya, it is a bit

frightening. The public opinion, frightening. The public opinion, I

guess, is quite frightened to go in, because it is about, what is the

plan? Or what is the end of the plan? There is a strange word, we

are talking about international law, I do not think we should mix

morality with it anyway. So we go there, we strive for a couple of

days, someone else will have to pay days, someone else will have to pay

for it because we cannot afford it, and then what? Only 5% of the rebels

are Al—Qaeda, we need more than that,

scary thought. The other comment, or alleged, by someone close to Mr

island that nobody pays attention Putin is that Britain is a small

island that nobody pays attention to. Apart from Chelsea!Is that how

Russia... I mean, Russia are a large country that everyone pays to, but

also divided Europe, in a pact with the Nazis. I am not asking you to

defend all of Russian history! I am just reading the wonderful book

about the Soviet times in about the Soviet times in

Afghanistan. The bickering between the UK and czarist Russia, it goes

back for a long time. And Russians still remember the Crimean War,

obviously. We can discuss the charge of the light Brigade and all that

kind of stuff, but we want. One of kind of stuff, but we want. One of

the really important issues is that Russia, Russian officials, and I am

not saying this has been a fact, not saying this has been a fact,

they retracted the comments and said this has never happened, that

anyway, I think Russia never lost the opportunity to just pass a small

joke on one country or another. Being a small island geographically,

it is correct, Britain is a small part of somewhere in the North

Atlantic. Russia is a country Atlantic. Russia is a country

spending around nine times its own... I think one

spending around nine times its question about the position of

international law in countries, I think that if we

remember, let's just forget that Russia has nuclear weapons were

second and let's go back to the early 1990s, when

similar situation, I think that waging a cruel war in Chechnya.

similar situation, I think that lutein is defending the right ——

Putin lutein is defending the right ——

extrapolating the potential warming Russia doing the same thing.

extrapolating the potential warming case, a small island that nobody

pays attention to, do you think one of the results in the House of

Commons is that the body does pay much attention to what written

thinks? —— Britain. We could either be flippant about this and talk

about how many British billionaires choose to buy up chunks of Moscow,

feeds the tabloids. Implement feeds the tabloids. Implement

consists of all kinds of things, but one important thing, I think,

Britain has taken itself out of the Britain has taken itself out of the

equation should be the case that the Americans and the French and maybe

some others do take action. We can't be there hoping to be part of that

action and helping to guide it. action and helping to guide it. I

mean a domain you should have influence, but it is not

catastrophic or anything, it just makes life difficult. I think in the

same way, it is how Britain is in Europe. We have a lot of influence,

but not as much as we could have if we properly engaged. One thing we

should remember goes back to when the Foreign Secretary suggested that

Russia had needs to changes Russia had needs to changes

constitution to get Russians extradited back to Britain, and that

was greeted with extreme hostility back in Russia, with extremist

elected, and the reaction that Britain is no longer an empire which

rules lots and lots of parts of the rules lots and lots of parts of the

world. But this is the sort of thing that will now be said to America.

Europe point. In many ways, the Europe point. In many ways,

future of Germany is at the future future of Germany is at the

that Angela Merkel is returned of Europe. If opinion

that Angela Merkel is returned either German people, and even if

the precise nature of her coalition is in some doubt, what will it mean

for the Eurozone? And why should people outside Germany care about

this? Well, in a funny way, they shouldn't, because... Wipe , well,

we will move on ! Germany is in ways the measure of the Eurozone at

this point. Angela Merkel has been in power for eight years. She is

about to possibly be re—elected again. The thing that Germany is all

about, really, is not doing very much and not changing very much. The

whole German system and the reason that Angela Merkel, even though she

has at the moment, 69% of German votes, their party block has a 15 to

rival. Despite that, there is a real rival. Despite that, there is a real

chance she might not get back in, because the whole German system was

designed in the aftermath of World War II. It was designed to stop

power being concentrated anywhere, so it is a system full of checks and

balances. You have constitutional court, the power in the state

parliaments, an electoral system that never returns a big majority.

And so, her first government, which was a grand coalition, there were

something like 90 days of negotiations at then election. What

Germany is all about is not allowing big and rapid change, which is also

in European political terms, one of the reasons everyone is always

getting impatient with Germany. Where is the big bazooka? Where is

this? Where is that? They cannot act that fast. Merkel, one of the reason

she is so popular is actually that fast. Merkel, one of the reason

because she has done really very little, but she has , what she has

done she has brought people along with air. And she has done it

consistently. She has done what she said she worked. Exactly. In that

incredibly rare in politics authenticity and consistency that is

incredibly rare in politics nowadays. In terms of whether people

they were very sceptical of four she female

they were very sceptical of four she was elected. Now, you sense even

among people who are not a natural supporters, an extraordinary pride

in having this female leader, and that is one reason they want to keep

it there. When we look at what has just happened in the stray Lear, ——

Australia, why should we care? I don't know what extent we should

care? But if you want to see a woman in power cut somewhere, she is the

best of them. The French are playing particular example to this. Well,

Francois Hollande when he was elected had the whole European plan

laid out. The left was going to go laid out. The left was going to go

back in power in Italy. Merkel was going to be ousted, obviously, and

David Cameron had only two years to go and then the Labour Party would

be back. Is how is that going? ! Terribly badly, because Berlusconi

is holding the whole Italian class, and that is not the parliament you

really wish to be seeing all stop Merkel is in all probability going

to be back. And I don't think Ed Miliband has any Prime Minister real

future will stop so it is pretty bad for Francois Hollande, and also

always takes at least years for the always takes at least years for the

French and the German head of state to actually bond. Sarkozy and Merkel

beard in the end, but only because of the Euro crisis. They did not

like each other. But they did not like Bill is going even more. That

is true ! That is interesting, of communication between their work

not the issue, Merkel is going to with Downing Street saying this

not the issue, Merkel is going to help reform the EU. The British

She played against Cameroon, and laughing their heads

She played against Cameroon, and Holland against Cameron. The results

raise Ackley what she wanted for Holland against Cameron. The results

raise Ackley what she wanted for Germany. She never negotiates, she

does her thing, she is quite does her thing, she is quite

mysterious. Cameron should not forget about Merkel machine is never

going to start with Britain on Europe. Whoever is Prime Minister,

should we pay a lot of attention to what happened in Germany are not?

Yes, I think we should be an Yes, I think we should be an

enormous amount of attention. But again, it may not be the precise

detail of the election result. I do find it unimaginable that a

politician who will command as much popular support as Angela Merkel

will not end up being Chancellor, because if you have anything else

happen, it will be a very big happen, it will be a very big

problem. That is clearly what they want. But is in the mood of the

Germans themselves which is Germans themselves which

incredibly important to us. Not just incredibly important to us. Not just

because Cameron hopes to do things but Merkel, but because whatever

Britain hopes to do, Germany will be a big force in deciding or not we

can do it. There is something else as well. When we talk about what is

going on in Syria and so on, we don't talk about what the German

attitude is. Germany is arguably the most powerful country in Europe, and

Europe has a significant say in foreign policy terms. This is

continuously the responsibility continuously the responsibility that

does not get taken responsibility for. We used to say about Japan, but

we do kind of wonder at what point Germany is going to assume the

responsibility it should. Dmitry? Moving on, over the last two years,

Europe as we know it, the Euro, and Europe as we know it, the Euro, and

Estonia has just joined the European currency, so I think that where I am

news articles about the German coming from, I never read a

news articles about the German election generally. That may be a

good thing that means the country just ploughs away, does its thing,

once this obstacle has passed, we Union a more coherent structure

can look at making the European Union a more coherent structure

moving forward. Talking about more coherent structures, the past year

has seen the BBC real from a series of self inflicted wounds — the Jimmy

Savile scandal, and now a row about excessive payoffs to former

managers. A former director—general has accused the governing body of

misleading Parliament. A couple misleading Parliament. A couple of

minutes on this. Have you any idea what is going on? Yes, I think I

have a rough idea, and I think Mark Thompson is broadly right, but I

think we should place this in some kind of limited context. This is

part of what happens when your business elite and your top elite

actually detaches itself in which the rest of society lives. Some

organisations, the BBC being one, actually belongs to both bits,

unlike a bank or something. It forgot that in those terms it

belonged to both bits and is being hammered for it. I think it is

potentially really dangerous. One of the things all of the topics we had

been discussing, reinforce the importance of the BBC's existence.

Coming from the print sector, you look at the turbulence in

journalism, and you want to know where the journalism funding is

going to come from to report be hard stuff. The BBC is an incredibly

important institution, not just for important institution, not just for

Britain but for the whole world at Britain but for the whole world at

under increasing threat from all this point. It is also one that is

under increasing threat from all sorts of people who would like to

view, whatever is being done wrong be impeccable. From that point

view, whatever is being done wrong must be sorted out. There needs

view, whatever is being done wrong be transparency. Dmitry? I can't

question lots of things happening in agree more. Or someone who

that vessel on power. I understand about redundancy packages, but I do

not understand why you would someone over the contractual

obligation. That is one think you would be extremely

going on to people who are on modest going on to people who are on modest

salaries. And who are paying for it. Precisely, or even within the BBC.

People who are just Precisely, or even within the BBC.

that We will find out Monday when this

meeting takes place. This will be much watched in this building, I

suspect. I couldn't agree more with Catherine, because this programme is

watched from the other side of the world, so it is very much an English

affair, except, two big payoffs. BBC affair, except, two big payoffs. BBC

executives could always give it back executives could always give it back

! Why not? Some of them did. Some of them did in the first place. The BBC

is important to the world, actually, and so, just give back the money.

Give back the money ! OK. That is it for us this week. We're back next

week at the same time. You can comment on twitter with our hat tag.

—— hashtag.