23/11/2013 Dateline London

That is the summary of the news. There is a full bulletin at 12 but

now it is time for Dateline London. Hello and welcome to Dateline

London. Could an interim agreement on Iran's nuclear programme be

within the grasp of negotiators this weekend? Three inquiries into the

Reverend Paul Flowers and how he became chairman of the Co`op Bank.

The Labour party and the government face questions over their handling

of the scandal. And should those who carried out killings during the

Troubles in Northern Ireland be brought to justice, or is it time

for a South Africa style truth and reconciliation commission? Joining

me to discuss this are Owen Jones from The Independent Newspaper.

Abdel Bari Atwan an Arab Writer. Maria Maragaronis of The Nation and

Thomas Keilinger of Die Welt. Thank you. The foreign ministers of six

major powers, including the US Secretary of State John Kerry are

returning to Geneva, hoping to reach an interim agreement on Iran's

nuclear programme. The negotiations have resumed after the bombing of

the Iranian embassy in Beirut which killed 23 people. So what are the

prospects of a breakthrough and what would the impact be on Iran's

relations with the West and with its neighbours in the Middle East?

Abdul, let me start with you. It does seem as if there are signs of a

possible deal. I believe so. Two weeks ago they met in Geneva and we

were about to witness a celebration of reaching this interim agreement

but the French foreign minister delayed the whole thing. Iran made

some concessions. They said, we are not insisting on the West

recognising our right to have enrichment, so we can find some way

around that but the problem is whether the western side is united

this time, if the French are joining the ranks of the Americans, British

and Germans and others and stop putting a very difficult conditions

on the Iran Ian 's. Iran says they would like the trust and to reach an

agreement. The first one is what to do with the enriched uranium and

also a nuclear plant supposed to be finished in 2060. I believe

everybody would like to avoid war, this is the most important thing. ``

2016. The West want a reconciliation and this will be the trigger to

reach this agreement. William Hague is saying it has to be a deal the

whole world can have confidence in. Will the Saudis have an equally open

attitude as the Israelis? A lot of unanswered questions. The desire for

peace is overwhelming but sometimes a desire overwhelms the practical

difficulties on the ground. Key to peace and security is ending the

counter`productive isolation of Iran. Western foreign policy has

been so counter`productive, not least one of the great legacies of

the war in Iraq was the strengthening of Iranians influence.

It was fascinating chewing the build`up to the vote in Britain if

there should be military intervention in Syria is one of the

proposals Ed Miliband came up with and it was in the aftermath of the

new collection of a Iranian president. One of the reasons the

regime has seen their fate so closely tied to the Syrian regime is

because of their isolation. Unless they have a deal here on the nuclear

programme, it will be impossible to get a negotiated peace settlement in

Syria. We have a terrible war going on in Syria which has now become a

Civil War but with a fragmented opposition on one side. My question

really would be how tied in to the Iran talks is Syria? In what respect

is it on the table? Dave West realised that military intervention

will not cause `` solve problems. The emphasis in the Middle East is

changing. Now they realise that in Syria, for example, who is

dominating the whole scene there? It is Al`Qaeda and other radical list

groups. The priority for the West is not to topple Assad but to face

these kinds of organisations, radical organisations in Syria. This

pushed the West to talk to Iran and these talks could solve some

problems and that is why now the Americans said, OK, we have had

enough or was in the middle east. Let us look at things in a different

way. Is well says Iran is a danger to the Wolves `` Israel. But this is

an interim agreement. It is a small staging post. There is a long way to

go in this. This is a problem that stretches back to the Iranian

revolution. There has been a realisation that the position with

Iran is completely untenable. The Syrian crisis has put that into

focus because unless we have a situation to have a negotiated

settlement including the Saudi sponsors of rebels and others in one

room, unless we have a situation where the isolation of Iran is

ended, that far`fetched negotiation with Syria is impossible. The

settlement in Iran will allow them to look big in being a provider of

peaceful kinds of settlements. You mentioned the Saudis are unhappy

about this deal as are the Israelis. Is there a danger that a deal could

have unforeseen consequences? You have to face this danger and still

go ahead with it. Damn the consequences because there are so

many other issues which you need to get to grips with and you cannot

even begin to think about Syria unless you solve Iran. America has

washed its hands of Syria. Syria is a problem for the local adjacent

countries to solve but they are looking at Iran as their prime...

You said it is an interim agreement but what is more important than bad

is that for the first time Iran will sign an agreement and once they are

engaged in talks, it does not stop. I think this is the meaning of it.

So positive today! So optimistic! Is it a significant step, reaching out?

Of course but although we can be optimistic, it is very difficult for

me to be optimistic about Syria which is being described as a proxy

war where you have on the one side the US, Israel rebel forces and on

the other side, Iran, Assad and Hezbollah. That such chaos on the

ground on Syria, so much suffering that I worry I'll be seeing these

two processes not working together but almost against each other so we

have people negotiating in Geneva by continuing a proxy war in Syria. The

Saudis felt they were let down by the Americans for the last four

years. They've put the Saudis under the impression that they were

willing to bomb the Iranian nuclear installations so they spent more

than $100 billion to buy the most sophisticated American weapons so

they could participate in this way, defending themselves from any

Iranian reaction or retaliation. The Saudis are furious. They are forming

some sort of alliance with Israel, with France, to model the water.

Whether they will succeed, we do not know. There were some realisation

that a war with Iran would be a catastrophe not simply because of

these are the disastrous interventions in Iraq and Libya,

which is now descending into abject chaos, but because it would

completely destabilise Iraq which has already been destabilised by

what is happening in Syria but would detonate a whole chain reaction of

events right across the middle east. The Americans are not stupid

and they have learned that if they were to engage in any form of

conflict with Iran, it would detonate the entire region. We will

leave that there because I want to move on and the Reverend Paul

Flowers has been arrested and released on bail by police

investigating the supply of drugs. Revelations about his past has

sparked a bitter political row about how he became chairman of the Co`op

bank despite little experience. Labour have come under pressure over

its links with Mr Flowers but there are questions for the government

also as ministers supported the banks failed attempt to take over

parts of Lloyds bank. A lot of allegations about how close the

Labour leadership had been to Mr Flowers. There is a historic

relationship between the Labour Party and co`operative movement, it

goes back to the beginning of the 20th century. Labour MPs often stand

as Labour and corporative MPs said that is one of the reasons they have

been dragged into it. The emphasis in this ever more sordid revelations

of Paul Flowers, I found distasteful. The question should be

how did a man so incompetent" the head of the Co`operative Bank which

was supposed to be different and ethical. Given the focus on the

relationship with Labour, the Tory MP David Davis said there were

questions the Chancellor had to ask because they were pushing for the

Co`operative Bank to take over hundreds of branches of Lloyds. What

we are seeing here is the Lynton Crosby approach to politics. They

will focus on the links to unions, and this is just... The principal

question has to be how an industrious society with layers of

vetting process can allow a man with no idea about banking become

chairman of a bank. I am reminded in a sense that this is the whole

culture that used to be reigning supreme in Britain before the big

bang went in a city bankers with meat for lunches and then continued

to discuss things over golf. Any other ordinary post that you may

aspire to in Britain, you have to face hundreds and hundreds of papers

and deep, personal questions and here on the top etching on the slip

through the net, a nod and a wink and that is all that is needed. The

absence of questions being asked is a huge case of negligence. It will

fuel the disenchantment people feel towards the system. It is

astonishing. It is revolting, it really is. This is a man who was

appointed in the spring of 2010 after the banking crisis. When does

this come out? Not when the Co`op Bank is losing so much money, not

when there is always `` all these problems happening, but when the

Daily Mail runs a video clip of Paul Flowers allegedly buying cocaine in

a car. This is the beginning of the election campaign, for 2015. It is

still 2013. This is a real change in British politics, that we are

starting this campaign now, and it is beginning to come thick and fast.

This morning we had talked of corruption in ethnic communities,

whatever that means. What is going on? But this is a man who, when he

appeared in front of the Treasury committee, said the assets of his

bank were about ?3 billion. It was ?47 billion. It seems we have heard

so much about not letting this banking crisis happen again, the

must be a astonishment at how he has slipped the net. I am stunned to be

honest. And how this man became a member of the business advisory

committee to add Miliband, how he could not discover that. `` add

Miliband. `` Ed Miliband. How Ed Miliband and his advisor could not

spot but this man is useless, I am surprised. This is the cream of the

Labour Party. So why let him actually in? The other point is, it

seems nowadays that the Daily Mail is the pacemaker for all of us. The

right wing papers are controlling the agenda. The reason the Tories

have seized on this is that they are so used to being portrayed as the

party of the bankers, so they have gone, now here `` we have a dodgy

banker we can implicate labour in. But I suppose just a warning in the

run`up to this General Election is, as we talk the Attorney`General has

spoken about corruption among ethnic minorities as he puts it. We have

had vans telling immigrants to go home, these are the sorts of tactics

which the Lynton Crosby strategist totally focuses on. I hope you

remind the Attorney`General that Mr Flowers is not from the minorities.

We must leave that there. On Panorama this week former members

of the British Army unit in Northern Ireland claimed they had shot and

armed civilians during the 1970s. Northern Ireland's Director of

Public Prosecutions has said criminal offences may have been

committed and the police should investigate. Northern Ireland's

Attorney`General said there should be an end to prosecutions for

killings during the Lynton Crosby. What about South Africa style truth

and reconciliation `` reconciliation commission? Good this work in

Northern Ireland? We have to talk about the programme and the

revelations about the military reaction force. It was one of those

moments you were shocked but not surprised. People have known the

sort of thing went on for a long time, but it was nevertheless

shocking that people said their job was to shoot people that needed

shooting, and admitting to shooting and and civilians. They appeared on

camera even though supposedly their identities were concealed. I think

when you have those kinds of revelations, and relatives of

victims of the shooting started about how they are still seeking

justice 40 years later, you cannot suspend prosecutions, you cannot say

we are just going to draw a line under this and move on. But at the

same time prosecutions are never going to be enough in a situation

like this. You do have to understand that different people live these

things in different ways from different odds of you, which are all

valid and real. `` different points of view. You have a have a personal

process where people speak to each other and above all listen to each

other. What I would imagine with either very difficult, never perfect

but both possible process would be to follow justice through as far as

is possible, really follow it through, and we have seen lately the

prosecutions of Britain in ten year over torture in can you. There is a

case pending in Cyprus about torture and the anti`colonial risings there.

And then you have a real reconciliation process which aims at

hearing everybody's points of view and having people feel they have

been heard. Do you think you can have justice over events that

happened in a very different era, decades ago? The rising in Kenyon

was very much `` the uprising in Kenyon was far longer ago. The

problem in Northern Ireland is it was a civil war, and it is difficult

to find the evidence required. In Kenyon it was suppressed, Cork,

country. `` it was a quote, suppressed country. In Northern

Ireland, people committed crimes on either side and they do not want to

come clean. And yet I agree, that some healing process has to happen.

But if prosecutions have hit the buffers so far in not been able to

bring certain cases to justice, you have to ask yourself, how do we

proceed? To continue to call for justice is wonderful, but it does

not heal the soul because you need some sort of coming together on this

issue, so for the community to really declare peace for their own

soul rather than for justice. If we are looking for reconciliation, you

have to forget about many things, for example Arafat used to be the

arch terrorist in in `` in Israelis' eyes, so cannot say we

continue this prosecution process. We have two follow that set of

examples of South Africa. South Africa did a brilliant president for

all of us, so we need to `` so we have two follow it. Close the book

of the past and look for the future. The truth and reconciliation process

in South Africa was credited with helping to avoid all`out civil war,

were victims of atrocities committed under apartheid could hear the

truth. The point I was make is that Northern Ireland, the simmering

anger and resentment still remains. We have recently had disenfranchised

working trust loyalists rioting in the streets, but the point I think

has to be investigated is state coalition for example with

loyalist, we need to be looking at the role of the Army. Bloody

Sunday, the massacre from 1972 is the most high`profile of those

atrocities, but the reason it is important to get that truth out is

British involvement in other countries, we have in Iraq ongoing

investigations into the actions of British soldiers, unless we have

light on what happened in for example Northern Ireland, it will be

very difficult to avoid those sorts of atrocities happening again

whether British Army is committed again. I agree, but Northern Ireland

is a unique case because you have this huge hurt which each side

committed towards the others, and if you have a truth and reconciliation

committee you have to be prepared to call a halt to prosecutions. And

that is the key question, are the Northern Ireland people ready to

forgive and to let it go for the purpose of finding a sort of

community. But the people never forgive when their loved ones have

been killed in those ways. But the simmering resentment is like a set

`` festering cancer which eats away at the community. It is for the next

generation. It is not for the people living now who have lost their loved

ones. We need amnesty, we need it in

Northern Ireland. But in maybe not for this generation. `` maybe not

for this generation. Thank you all very much indeed. But

is it for this week. You can comment on this programme on Twitter. We are

back next week at the same time, but for no good.

`` but for now, goodbye. Not a bad weekend of whether

in`store, although it was chilly first thing this morning. The frost