Browse content similar to 07/12/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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I am back with a full bulletin at the top of the hour. Now it is | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Dateline London live with Carol Walker. | :00:00. | :00:26. | |
Hello. Welcome to Dateline London. South Africa prepares for a week of | :00:27. | :00:34. | |
events to commemorate the life of Nelson Mandela. We will look at his | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
legacy and the future of the country. | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
Also, how strong is the British economy? Is the Chancellor right to | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
claim his plan is working? My guests today are Polly Toynbee of the | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
Guardian, Stephanie Baker from Bloomberg, temp wat from S W radio | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
Africa and Heather Walker from The South African.Dot com. Thank you for | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
joining us. Heather, we have heard is a lot about Nelson Mandela's | :01:02. | :01:09. | |
extraordinary life and achievements. What state does he | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
leave South Africa in now? People are asking what his legacy is. On | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
one hand his legacy is the country itself. It is the people and the | :01:23. | :01:30. | |
institutions he built and the reconciliation that he developed in | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
South Africans. We are changed country. We are different place. You | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
can see it in the way people relate to each other. But on the other hand | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
there is a Santa legacy where people are questioning whether country is | :01:48. | :01:55. | |
going. `` there is a sadder lectures the `` a sadder legacy. The current | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
leaders living up to the current values and rights for all. The | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
legacy of Nelson Mandela might be in a fragile state, as some people | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
would argue. Tererai Karimakawenda, do you think that is right? Yes. | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
would argue. Tererai Karimakawenda, do you think that is right? Yes If | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
you look at the promise when he came out of prison, one thing that was | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
promised was basic water and electricity and there are still | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
millions of people in South Africa who do not have those basics. | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
Mandela has been let down by the people who followed him. He had the | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
right idea and he stepped down at the right time and did the right | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
thing, because many African leaders do not want to step down. You | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
literally have to force them from power. But he did the right thing | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
but the people after him did not follow those ideas and they could | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
have done a lot more to change the lives of South Africans. We know | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
unemployment is around 25%. There was a big gulf between the incomes | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
of the black and white communities. Yes, income and equality in South | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
Africa has widened since apartheid. That will be a real battle ground | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
going forwards. People struggle for the heart of the ANC and how it | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
develops the economy going forwards. In the past year and a half there | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
has been a series of wildcat strikes across mines in South Africa, where | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
unions are demanding a doubling of wages. It has been met by a deadly | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
response by the police who have not handled it well at all. Now they | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
have unions threatening to leave the ANC because they disagree with | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
Government policy. There is a lot of questions over how South Africa goes | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
forwards and moves that Mandela s legacy, remembering what he wanted | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
to do which was equality and opportunity for everyone and they | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
have fallen short of that with the economic legacy unravelling a bit. | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
There has been a huge amount spoken about how much he did achieve. In | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
the immediate aftermath of his death, do you think perhaps some | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
problems have been overlooked? I think so. It is not really a day or | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
a week for looking at his weaknesses or the things he could not achieve. | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
After all, you think of the heavy lifting required, and how amazing | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
what he did achieve and that remains the most remarkable thing about him | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
despite everything you have said. I have been looking at the | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
extraordinary British reaction. The utter hypocrisy of the British and | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
right ring and the British press. Pages and pages of the Daily | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
Telegraph, the Daily Mail, the papers who supported apartheid at | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
the time. I was amongst the demonstrators outside South Africa | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
House and part of the apartheid movement. I worked for Amnesty | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
International in the Ian Smith years. The rewriting of history, | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
years. The rewriting of history particularly the British | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
Conservatives' role, they supported apartheid. And now David Cameron is | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
saying how wonderful he was. David Cameron himself visited South Africa | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
with his expenses paid in 1989, expenses paid by a lobbying group, | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
and we get these crocodile tears. It sticks in my throat. What has been | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
interesting for me is listening to the stories. The stories that are | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
coming out which ordinary people are telling about those demonstrations. | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
The things people dead. Ordinary white people who supported the | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
movement and wanted him to be freed from jail. Really lovely stories | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
about how I brought my daughter and we stayed there all night and the | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
money that was raised by youth clubs. That is when you really see | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
the legacy that Nelson Mandela was leaving. When you look at the | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
relationships which have developed over the years I was listening to a | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
woman who age was married to a Jamaican and this is how she got to | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
know about Nelson Mandela, because as a white person she had never had | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
black friends before that. She married this Jamaican and he bought | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
this `` he brought this other aspect to her life. That kind of legacy of | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
bringing Brack and white together is his legacy. It was a small group in | :06:33. | :06:41. | |
Britain with the police treating the demonstrators as if... The people | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
pull were split on these demonstrations. And a great exodus | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
of white Brits to South Africa for a better life as you can get | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
servants. The cultural rewriting that is going on now is dangerous. | :06:58. | :07:06. | |
And South Africa does have the advantage now that it has a lot of | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
foreign investment but we have these big elections coming up. Some | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
criticism of the current ANC leadership. We know the ANC is | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
losing support. We do not know how it will pan out by the time the | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
election comes. We celebrate 20 years next year of democracy which | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
is hard to believe. That will be a watershed moment in our country The | :07:35. | :07:36. | |
watershed moment in our country. The elections come at a time when there | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
are these extreme economic problems with the mines and the unions. There | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
is a rift between the unions and the ANC. That has traditionally been one | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
of the main strongholds of the ANC. So how they might break away could | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
influence the election quite strongly. And also all the new | :07:55. | :08:09. | |
parties coming forward. A lot of people `` we have a lot of | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
politicians coming through at the moment, all sorts of new pieces | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
coming up with new parties coming up. Although they are not going to | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
win a huge amount of the votes the first time around, we know the ANC | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
will be looking at those parties and the opposition party and the | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
Democratic Alliance which is growing in popularity in many communities. | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
And South Africa is now seen as an important player, one of the bricks | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
of emerging economies in the world. That economic future is hugely | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
important for the country, isn't it? Yes, it is but it is not China or | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
India. It has not experienced the rapid economic growth we have seen | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
in some of the other brick countries. That is partly because of | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
the economic legacy from Nelson Mandela, he played a huge role in | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
stabilising the economy. People forget how bad South Africa was at | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
the time he took over as president. They had a massive budget deficit. | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
Capital was fleeing the country He played a strong stabilising force | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
and set up the conditions for economic growth for 15 years until | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
2008 when the financial crisis hit. Now it ought to be growing faster | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
and I think the challenge is how to strike the balance between working | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
conditions and pay. That will be the real focus going forwards to attract | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
international investment at the same time. How to strike that talents in | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
a politically tricky time period will be interesting to watch. | :09:54. | :10:03. | |
Tererai, South Africa is an important player in that region. | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
important player in that region Yes, the most important player right | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
now. South Africa was appointed as the facilitator in terms of the | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
negotiations in Zimbabwe when we had elections and problems there. We had | :10:18. | :10:27. | |
the facilitator negotiating between Robert Mugabe and Zanu`PF. They had | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
huge respect for Nelson Mandela and many wished he had said something | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
about the situation in Zimbabwe particularly when we had violent | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
elections and people were brutalised and we have a president who has been | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
a powerful 30 years to leave. Zimbabweans have so much respect for | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
Nelson Mandela and they wanted some verbal criticism pointing to the fax | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
next door. That was a glaring absence or silence. He was very well | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
respected in Zimbabwe. Stefanie, absence or silence. He was very well | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
respected in Zimbabwe. Stefanie as respected in Zimbabwe. Stefanie as | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
we look at the future of South Africa in that region, do you think | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
the markets will look positively on that future without Nelson Mandela | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
there? He was still there as this presents for the nation. That will | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
depend on the outcome of the elections and what happens to the | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
ANC. If it turns into a messy political situation and we see the | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
unions breaking off from the ANC, that will add instability. They | :11:36. | :11:45. | |
really need to focus on an agreement between wages to placate the unions | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
and stabilise the mining industry which is a huge part of the economy | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
and South Africa. They need a long`term solution. Any final | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
thoughts on the future of South Africa? South Africa has always been | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
the great emblem of hope for the rest of Africa. If it cannot resolve | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
its inequality problem, it looks grim. The gap in wages is so | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
enormous between top and bottom There has to be someone a showing | :12:13. | :12:21. | |
that you can have a fairer distribution of wealth. That is the | :12:22. | :12:22. | |
way forward for Africa. Tererai, way forward for Africa. Tererai | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
would you agree with that? Absolutely. Also, it is an important | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
time to look back at what this meant and what apartheid was and what it | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
meant to people. The separation of people. You had classes of people | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
where the Asians and Africans were here and the whites were there. To | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
revisit that if you have children, to really look at what Mandela's | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
plight was all about. That struggle has produced many important people. | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
Many were fighting for the same thing, which is equality and justice | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
and a good life for all people. It is a good time to revisit that. Yes, | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
a whole new focus on that after his death. Now we must move on. In | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
Britain this week the Chancellor George Osborne gave his Autumn | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
Statement. He trumpeted the fastest growth in the developing world `` | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
wrote developed world. But Ed Balls accused him of taking complacency | :13:26. | :13:33. | |
and a crisis leaving families worse off. Who is right? Stephanie Baker, | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
do you think the Chancellor was right to make those confident | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
claims? It is remarkable how quickly the situation has changed in six | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
months. Back in March had the IMF criticising George Osborne for not | :13:53. | :13:54. | |
doing enough to kick`start the UK economy. Had Britain being | :13:55. | :14:03. | |
downgraded `` you had the credit rating of Britain being downgraded. | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
The forecast has not been good. The numbers do not live. There is a | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
recovery going on. Construction and services have only bounded. I think | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
the issue is that it is not a balanced recovery. It is being | :14:19. | :14:26. | |
driven by consumer demand and credit as opposed to investment or | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
exports. That is probably because Europe is still in the doldrums and | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
that is the largest trading partner. I thought that people | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
viewed this as a political statement by George Osborne. He is staking his | :14:39. | :14:45. | |
economics at the centre of the next election. That will get tricky going | :14:46. | :14:53. | |
forward. He was claiming that his austerity plan worked and that had | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
resulted in economic growth. A lot of economists look at that and think | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
that might be a stretch. The Bank of England has kept interest rates at | :15:03. | :15:10. | |
historic lows for five years and has embarked on impressive easing which | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
is taking hold and resulting in some of the economic growth. And the real | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
issue is how to unravel this without killing the economy. The Bank of | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
England is now linking and saying it will not raise interest rates until | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
unemployment falls below 7%. The forecasts released recently show | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
that will happen at the end of 014 or early 2015, which means there | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
will be a hike in interest rates for the first time in six years right | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
before a general election. That will be interesting. If Labour were to | :15:42. | :15:56. | |
win the next election, they will face the rising of interest rates. | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
This is a very political business. The idea that interest rates are | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
totally independent from anything to do with government, I would doubt | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
it. George Osborne, part of his job was to make sure he maintains | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
international confidence. Do you think he has succeeded? I think he | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
has two a certain extent. Britain is well regarded internationally in | :16:23. | :16:30. | |
many spheres. I do not think, compared to South Africa certainly, | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
Britain certainly has much higher depth than South Africa, which is | :16:35. | :16:42. | |
hard to believe. Financially he has served it well. They are playing | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
around with figures and there is never an agreement between economic | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
experts as to what is true and what is not. They IMF to say one thing | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
and Osborne says another. He has added another year to his austerity | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
plan. That shows literally he was way off and he is trying to find $25 | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
billion in cuts ` welfare cuts. That is a lot of money. They have already | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
cut. A lot of people are suffering. If you listen to people on the buses | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
and trains, they are still feeling this austerity quite seriously. To | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
say there is more coming, I cannot imagine how many people will make | :17:24. | :17:33. | |
it. They are still not back where they hoped things would be when this | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
government came into power. They are miles. He said they would be back in | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
balance by 2015. Not a chance now. He has pushed forward his target. | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
What is interesting about this is you have a cautious, but quite | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
ebullient at statement from the Chancellor. The next day, you read | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
the front page of the Financial Times. OBE are, the office will | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
budget responsibility, which Osborne himself put into place, and | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
independent body. The Instiitute for Fiscal Studies, the arbiter of all | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
of these things and totally independent, pitfalls of cold water | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
on it really. It says it is rising faster than other people because it | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
went further and deeper and longer. `` it is rising faster than they | :18:23. | :18:36. | |
thought. There is a fact that construction is moving fast but it | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
is minimal. There are a lot of questions. It is better to be where | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
we are then where we were six months ago. You look at the cuts. The | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
sturdy has hardly begun. After the next election, bigger cuts than we | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
have ever had. All of them saying, you cannot do this. The bins will | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
not be collected at the rate he has pencilled in. Did talk of tax rises | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
when people are complaining that train fares have gone up and fuel | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
has gone up... It will probably be necessary. You either run a huge | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
deficit where if interest rates go up, it will be very expensive, or | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
you have these kind of cuts which are politically impossible. In the | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
end you had to pay for it. They are talking about cutting government | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
departments even further. I'm an economic expert. I see how it | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
affects people around me. The library closed in the area where I | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
lived. The council took the books and the furniture and put them into | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
storage. That is a contract they are paying monthly. The local residents | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
took over the library. They have filled it up with books. The council | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
has given back that furniture they took out. It has been a good speller | :19:58. | :20:05. | |
for community action. They are not going to cap government spending any | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
more than they have. The austerities starting to be felt by people. The | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
Conservatives are saying they want to get the size of government down | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
permanently and for ever to way below what we have been | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
traditionally used to. Despite the fact a lot of local services have | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
been cut and they are always talking endlessly about the cost of living | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
and how people have been squeezed because their wages are not going up | :20:35. | :20:35. | |
as quickly as prices are rising By as quickly as prices are rising. By | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
and large, from all the polls, people seem to want to stick with | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
the recipe of George Osborne. Labour is leading in the polls. The ratings | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
of George Osborne, as steward of the economy, have risen recently. That | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
is not surprising given the economic growth we have seen. I agree, a lot | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
of the cuts back ended for after the election. It will be unclear, even | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
if the Conservatives win, will they be able to carry that off? | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
Forecasting that far into the future is incredibly difficult. The fact of | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
the matter is, even with these cuts, net public debt will peak at ?1 5 | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
net public debt will peak at ?1.5 trillion. That is astonishing. Just | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
the servicing of that debt is enormous. Something has two gives | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
somewhere. I do not think they want to do too much before the next | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
election. 2016 will be a very tricky year. Britain is doing better than | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
some of the other Eurozone countries. We are not alone and | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
still struggling to emerge from this global, financial crisis. Certainly | :21:48. | :21:56. | |
not. Other places have survived better. Australia is doing well | :21:57. | :22:04. | |
Britain is still, in Europe, one of the stronger countries. I suppose we | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
can thank those who are responsible for our financial management in some | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
ways. Given what you were talking about with the Billy Crespi which | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
George Osborne set out, are you surprised there has not been more of | :22:22. | :22:32. | |
a backlash against it? `` with the recipe which George Osborne set out. | :22:33. | :22:41. | |
People think that everything is going up but what has not gone up is | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
salaries. I am surprised there has not been a backlash. I am surprised | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
there are not more demonstrations and public outcry is. Perhaps you | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
are surprised that Ed Balls does not seem to be winning over the public | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
as much as you would like. You seemed to struggle on Thursday. He | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
had a bad performance. It was bad both in content and delivery. The | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
delivery, I think, we feel our parliament in a very peculiar way. | :23:10. | :23:18. | |
You do not see, or here, the full force of the bark of sound forth if | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
you stand where he is standing, you cannot hear yourself speak. His side | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
were not very happy. The more serious critique is that he has not | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
decided how to grasp the enormity of what is planned for after the | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
election. What will Labour say? They have said they will stick to the | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
envelope. They have two say I think they will have to be honest. Either | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
we followed through these cuts, and this is what they will mean for | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
health, schools, roads, parks, everything. Libraries no more. | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
Swimming pools though more. All we are going to have to pay for it. | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
Taxes will have two rides. Whether you can win an election by being | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
that honest, I do not know. `` taxes will have to rise. Honesty is the | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
only hope. Just briefly, that does seem to be wed David Cameron and | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
George Osborne are at the moment. They seem to be basing their whole | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
approach and saying stick with us because we are on the right course. | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
The trust and managing the economy is higher. Ed Balls has not | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
articulated a coherent response. The articulated a coherent response. The | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
Coalition Government has really succeeded in putting Labour on the | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
backs that. They are trying to pass this charter with Parliamentary | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
approval and getting everyone to commit to capping the net amount of | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
public debt. How will Labour respond to that? They must not put | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
themselves in a chicken situation after the next election should they | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
win. Until they can say their plan is better, it will be difficult. | :25:04. | :25:05. | |
win. Until they can say their plan is better, it will be difficult. We | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
will continue right up until the next general election. We have to | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
leave it here. That is it the be can also comment on the programme on | :25:16. | :25:23. | |
twitter. `` that is it. You can also comment on the programme on Twitter. | :25:24. | :25:25. | |
Goodbye. Halloo. Much, and quieter conditions | :25:26. | :25:55. | |
as we head through the cause of the weekend. It will be often quite | :25:56. | :25:57. | |
cloudy for much of the | :25:58. | :25:58. |