Browse content similar to 08/02/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Have a full bulletin at the top of the hour. Now, it is dateline | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
London. Hello and welcome to Dateline | :00:00. | :00:30. | |
London. The Winter Olympics opened in Sochi. What does this great show | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
tell us about Russia now? Negotiating with the Taliban and | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
freak weather in Britain, Australia and United States and elsewhere, | :00:40. | :00:49. | |
what does that tell us about climate change? My guests today are Dmitri | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
Shishkin of BBC Global News, Stephanie Baker of Bloomberg | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
Markets, Ashis Ray of Ray Media and Janet Daley of the Sunday Telegraph. | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
The Olympic Games in Beijing told us a lot about how modern China sees | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
itself on the same could be said about the Olympics in Sochi. It has | :01:02. | :01:09. | |
been dogged by rows about what many see as an increasingly authoritarian | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
Russian state. People all over Russia looking upon the opening with | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
pride or what? Huge pride. It was interesting that irrespective of | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
which political spectrum you belong to in Russia, if you looked at the | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
Twitter feed and Facebook feeds yesterday, they were all very | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
complimentary about the kind of show that has been put on. Before that, | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
to be honest, it was very radicalised in terms of your | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
attitude to Sochi. If you were against Vladimir Putin, then you | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
would see it as his pet project, mired in corruption. You would be | :01:43. | :01:50. | |
talking about gay rights, Pussy Riot, political prisoners and that | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
side of the spectrum. Domestically it would have been very different. | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
The Games were shown almost as the pinnacle, although that is likely to | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
be the 2018 World Cup, which will be staged in Russia in four years time. | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
Still very much the world coming to Russia. The world seeing what modern | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
Russia is like. What China has shown in 2008 and what Britain has shown | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
in 2012, a similar message. The point I want to make is that the | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
show was not about propaganda or Russia. It was about how Russia | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
contributed to the world. Does they do care about the money? -- does | :02:34. | :02:42. | |
nobody care? Of course they do, but possibly not to the same extent as | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
is being portrayed here. People are fixated on the number of $51 | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
billion. Russians have come to acknowledge the fact that corruption | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
is something that has been with them for at least 400 years. So nothing | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
new! Apart from that, what they would say, we are seeing the Sochi | :03:03. | :03:10. | |
games as a way of transforming the whole of southern Russia. That would | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
be the main message. We are building new roads and infrastructure, | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
transforming the region. Although people do steal. I am shocked by | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
that and obviously it never happened anywhere else! Lots of parallels | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
there. People in London were whingeing about the games at London | :03:30. | :03:39. | |
until they started. It was a lot of money and people now tends not to | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
think about that. There is a blow that these things have. Yes, there | :03:44. | :03:50. | |
are parallels. If you want to pitch for the Games, you have to picture | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
regeneration project. There was nothing there before, which is part | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
of the reason why it is so expensive, in addition to corruption | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
and waste. They have built a Mountain ski resort from nothing. | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
They have built a whole area on the coast where there was nothing | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
before, just swampland. The day of reckoning will come when the Games | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
are over and people will ask if it is the regeneration plan and if it | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
will work. Was that $50 billion well spent? Given that it is happening | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
against the background of the Russian economy slowing... When | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
Vladimir Putin pitched to win the Games, in 2007, economic growth was | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
strong and Russia was an ascendant power. Now oil prices are above $100 | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
on the Russian economy is stagnating. I think a lot of people | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
do blame corruption for that as well as low productivity. I think | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
Vladimir Putin may be facing a lot of questions when the Games Rover. | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
Does it make us question the dynamic with in the country as well? In | :04:55. | :05:02. | |
China, there was a proud country reasserting itself, but also it | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
forced it to acknowledge the way it is seen around the world is | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
important. That could be true of Russia. Yes, I think it is | :05:11. | :05:19. | |
absolutely true to say that it is a resurgent Russia. After the collapse | :05:20. | :05:21. | |
of the Soviet Union, there was a psychological collapse. To rebuild | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
the regime and create a capitalist system is something that is taking | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
time. The work is still in progress. The fact is that whether it is the | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
energy resources of Russia or their manufacturing which is showing up | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
these days, in the hardware of military design or any other field, | :05:42. | :05:49. | |
I think Russia is certainly on the resurgent. What do you make of that? | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
They used to say that the economy does not work and they make very | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
little that people want to buy apart from oil and gas. It still does not | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
work without the oil. That is all there is to the Russian economy. But | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
this is not about Russia. It is about Vladimir Putin and this has | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
been his year, thanks to the withdrawal of United States and the | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
loss of any intervention in Syria. He became the Peacemaker, in | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
inverted commas, in Syria and Iran, and it is very important for him in | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
the most unlikely circumstances. The most unlikely person as well. The | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
former KGB thug becomes Peacemaker for the world. It is very important | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
for him that the prestige of these games should be sustained beyond | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
when they finish. There was a very funny incident when the display of | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
the five Olympic circles was supposed to turn into the Olympic | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
circles at one of them did not work but the Russian television audiences | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
did not know that because as soon as it became apparent that it did not | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
work, they substituted pre-recorded material. That is old Russia and | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
Stalinism. And it does not make any sense because in the age of social | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
media, people know. I want to make a couple of points. Your point about | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
the lack of self-confidence among Russians is very true. I think | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
Russia is a nation domestically, irrespective of how it might project | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
itself internationally, domestically it is a work in progress in terms of | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
the national ideal. They always say exports is the national ideal, then | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
boil, then something else. It is very powerful and people were | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
commenting that when the little girl was getting rid of the red balloon | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
that was flying away, that red balloon was old Russia and she was | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
the new Russia. That was very symbolic. I would agree with what | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
you are saying. It is absolutely true that the Russia within is less | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
confident than the Russia with its foreign policy. There is no doubt | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
that Russia has played a constructive role, whether in Syria | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
or Iran, and that cannot be underestimated. When it comes to the | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
various issues raised in connection with Sochi, starting with terrorist | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
threats and hotel conditions not being up to the mark, starting with | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
anti-gay legislation, and of course construction costs and corruption, I | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
would say that certainly when it comes to the terrorist threat and | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
when it comes to the hotel conditions not being up to the | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
mark, these are matters of international concern. I am not | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
really sure whether corruption or the cost of construction is an | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
international matter. It is more a domestic Russian issue. So is, I | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
guess, the anti-gay aspect. Although I can understand that the gay | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
movement internationally is concerned. Whether it is a | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
Government to Government matter, I am not really sure. I think some of | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
the media coverage in the West has been a bit mean-spirited. It was | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
entertaining at first and then I read the Daily Mail's description of | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
the Opening Ceremony and I thought, you know what? Enough is enough. I | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
totally agree with you. The important thing here is that if you | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
went to cheering, if you went to Athens, probably the organising | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
committee did not think about what important thing. -- if you went to | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
Turin. That is to make sure that the journalists are happy when they | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
arrive! It is important that if you have yellow water coming out of your | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
apartment, of course that is important. But if you can take care | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
of sports people, please take care of international journalists. | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
They're working hard to look like a 21st century country keeping up with | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
25th entry standards, so this is embarrassing. I think the gay rights | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
issue is different. It raises the issue of human rights and civil | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
liberty is, and whether or not it is an autocratic country, a modern | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
democratic country. I think that will be the most serious question | :10:08. | :10:15. | |
inside and outside. Can I switch slightly because this week David | :10:16. | :10:17. | |
Cameron chose to refer to Olympics as something to do with United | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
Kingdom's national image. At the Olympic Park in London, not | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
Scotland, which was picked up by the SNP, he said that we are better | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
together and he told people to phone a friend and tell them to vote no. | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
The Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said that David Cameron | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
talking like this is the embodiment of every reason why you should vote | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
yes. That is probably why he is not going to Scotland. This is | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
tantamount to saying that this is class war. The old Etonian | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
upper-class image is a death in Scotland. That adds a political | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
dimension that for the most part the SNP is not really admitting, that | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
this is as much about straightforward politics, class | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
politics, as it is about Scottish independence, and that is an | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
imported admission. If I may play devils advocate? When it comes to | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow this year, Alec Salmond will say | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
exactly the same. I agree that it will probably be a no vote. Pakistan | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
opened talks with the Taliban this week. How far is it possible to | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
reach some kind of an agreement with the state with a troubled democratic | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
history and an organisation that wishes to govern according to | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
extreme interpretations of the Koran? Presumably it is better than | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
shooting each other but do you think it places much faith in these | :11:41. | :11:48. | |
negotiations? I would like to compliment the Prime Minister for | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
the initiative. It was an election promise and he has pursued it. | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
Despite the fact the army has been against any soft approach to the | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
Taliban. He had gone ahead with the talks. The important question, as | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
you have raised, is whether the talks have any prospects. First of | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
all, we are at the stage where both sides are negotiating about talks, | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
rather than engaging in talks. We are at the precondition stage, where | :12:15. | :12:21. | |
five conditions have been put by the Pakistan Government to the Taliban. | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
One of them is that there should be a complete cessation of hostilities. | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
Then on the other side, from the Taliban side, there are two demands. | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
This is a difficult one, they want an imposition of Sharia law as | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
opposed to British law in Pakistan. The second one is the withdrawal of | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
all American troops from the region. In Afghanistan? Exactly. Obviously | :12:50. | :12:57. | |
Pakistan has no jurisdiction over the movement of American troops in | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
Afghanistan. It is a sovereign country, separate country, and even | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
within Pakistan, which is a continental nation as opposed to | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
being an Arabic country, for it to switch dramatically from British | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
jurisprudence to Sharia law is not going to be easy. I doubt very much | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
whether it will happen. Just on that point, especially since in Pakistan | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
there has been a rather difficult history of army takeovers and so on, | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
it has quite often been the judiciary and the lawyers who have | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
been the last bastions of democratic civil society. Am I right? | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
Absolutely right. There has also been annexes between the army and | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
the intelligence wing and the extreme right-wing forces. -- a | :13:45. | :13:59. | |
nexus. This is very difficult for the Pakistani Government. Should we | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
congratulate them. In it? It was inevitable I think, because they | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
were up against a wall. It was the irresistible force. The value | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
systems are completely incompatible, totally incompatible. | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
The idea that something productive could come out of this, you can't | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
pretend that this is like the British Government is dealing with | :14:22. | :14:23. | |
Sinn Fein, former terrorists who have decided to go legal. Their | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
whole value systems and their political assumptions are completely | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
incompatible. What can come out of this, the most you can hope is to | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
avert outright civil war. I was reading about this and it struck me | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
that the umbrella group that represents the Taliban surely | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
represents many diverse groups within it, so it would be very hard | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
to control any agreement that they come up with. Another thing is what | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
are you going to do with presumably foreign fighters? I remember when | :14:58. | :15:06. | |
Boris Yeltsin was trying to negotiate with Chechen leaders in | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
the mid 90s, which Vladimir Putin completely opposes and he said we | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
never negotiated with the Chechens. He pacified Chechnya in the way he | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
wanted it done. Some people were always referring to Boris Yeltsin as | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
a traitor as soon as he started talking to people on that side of | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
the border, although church any was part of the country. -- Chechnya was | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
part of the country. They were not imposing Sharia law. It was just | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
about imposing the end of Ireland in the first place. -- the end of | :15:42. | :15:52. | |
violence. The former governor has suggested that tried is more | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
important than some of the constructor come from outside of the | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
country, and perhaps the government recognises effectively what you are | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
saying, you can negotiate with most people involved in conflict, not all | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
of them, but most of them. But I think there is the question of, if | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
they can get a video, can it be implemented if there are Al-Qaeda | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
affiliates in some of those regions? I think the Pakistani ambassador to | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
the US summed it up pretty well when he said recently that you can't | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
negotiate with people who wants to bring the country back to the eighth | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
century. The Gulf is so huge between their positions, and I was reading | :16:31. | :16:39. | |
some speculation that this is... There had been pressure or | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
expectation that the military would respond against terrorist attacks | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
recently, but this may be a tactic by Sherif, going, try negotiations. | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
They are likely to fail, but this would give a clean slate for a | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
military response. Exactly, to justify that. I have done it, I have | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
tried, and now the Army can take over, and that is not unlikely, | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
because there is a lot of scepticism in Pakistan about what Sharif is | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
doing at the moment. The Army has been briefing media about this being | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
a weakness on the part of the Pakistani government. Let's move on | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
to what is clearly the biggest story of the week, the British government | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
having been forced to earmark a lot more money for flood defences after | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
another week of stormy weather. All around the world, we are | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
experiencing what some US commentators called global we | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
thing, very strange weather patterns. Will all this and public | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
concern forced government to think differently? Is it time for the | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
debate with climate change sceptics to be drawn to an end? There are two | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
different parts of that, but on government thinking differently, | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
this government has clearly begun to start differently. Yes, but not | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
about climate change, about dredging rivers. They have excepted climate | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
change, broadly, haven't they? Yes. But with respect, this isn't a | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
climate change story, this is a government agency incompetence | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
story, and to the extent that environmental issues have come into | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
it, if they actually seem to have been detrimental. A great deal of | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
money and energy has been spent on protecting the natural habitat of | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
the wildlife of that area. In fact, there is evidence that the brothers | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
have deliberately not been dredged in order to save the habitat of | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
wildlife in the area. -- the rivers. And the river dredging, which had | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
gone on for 200 years and had prevented floods, even, perhaps, in | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
very extreme weather in the past, have prevented this kind of | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
catastrophic flooding, has not been done since 1990. So I think the | :18:44. | :18:52. | |
viral mental issues cuts both ways. One of the climate change advisors | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
for this government said, not just for the narrow issue, for everyone | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
power and you spend on protecting properties in places like Somerset, | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
you save ?8 and clean up, so it is a good thing to invest in. He was very | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
clear that there has been a shift in weather patterns causing a great | :19:13. | :19:14. | |
deal more damage, and governments must get together. Yes, but even if | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
they do get together on the broad point, you're talking about possible | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
solutions and 50 or 60 years. The extent to which Britain unilaterally | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
could affect the overall climate conditions of the world, within | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
Britain, there are specific, concrete practical policies which | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
have not been followed, which could have been followed, and I'm afraid | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
this has been a shameful incident within government agencies and | :19:41. | :19:42. | |
government responsibility to the people of this region. That is | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
certainly what people in Somerset have been saying. Yes, I think | :19:47. | :19:54. | |
pretty much worldwide, there is increasing evidence that climate | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
change is beginning to affect farming, and therefore, if this | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
continues the decades, there could be a food crisis. A time has come | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
where people need to arrest what is going on. That being the case, I | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
think we are seeing more and more proactive measures. In Britain, | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
geographically a small country, where extreme weather conditions | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
prevail, vast areas of the country are affected, and therefore, I | :20:22. | :20:29. | |
noticed an opinion shift, not only among the conservatives, which is | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
important, because the Conservatives have been slightly divided on this, | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
but also, most importantly, among the people. And if the West Country, | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
which is relatively conservative or liberal country, as opposed to being | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
Labour territory, is going to be swayed by bizarre given, then think | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
Britain is sadly moving in the direction of proactive measures as | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
far as climate change is concerned. I am more interested in the | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
government response. Climate change is here, it is a matter of how we | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
respond. It seems like their response has been too but they | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
plaster on a gaping wound. I was really surprised at the environment | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
Minister's response on the ground. The buyer and agency had. He seems | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
to display a remarkable lack of sympathy for local resident. It took | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
him a while to get down there as well. Yes, his first visit? It is | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
shocking it took him that long. He doesn't want to give an apology, but | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
the lack of sympathy he displayed, I think, was probably the last nail in | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
the Coffin. I don't know how he's going to get beyond that. Well, the | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
government has a problem with getting rid of people who are in | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
non-governmental... Quangos, who happen to have a Labour past. He is | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
going anyway in July, so I think he will effectively go before then, | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
because he will be an absent force. The narrow issue and the white | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
issue. The narrow issue is, are the agencies we have, including the | :22:09. | :22:17. | |
government, been acting competently? It is not only Britain that is | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
affected, huge parts of Russia have been affected by floods, for | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
example. Unprecedented floods, actually, floods on the size of, if | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
you take the territory of Britain, it could be whole counties wide. So | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
Russia's position was always to tackle this particular crisis, and | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
it is very short-term as a policy, so if you take a wider kind of | :22:43. | :22:51. | |
problem on a government level, or a level of several decades, Russia is | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
not really interested in that, it would appear. First, the | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
construction is not up to speed, so they are unable to trade. As long as | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
they can pass the problem onto someone else, they don't care. The | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
people at a new mothers all time. In Russia, it has not been snowing up | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
until early January, which was amazing. I have never had a New | :23:11. | :23:20. | |
Year's Day without snow, and people were thinking, I don't necessarily | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
think this is high and Russian agendas, so when it comes to the UN | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
or any international body, Russia has been problematic. I was | :23:27. | :23:34. | |
interested, on the wider question, when we have debates between climate | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
change sceptics and those who are scientists who study this, the | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
thought is, there should not be a debate any more. Do you think we are | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
at that point now, where the debate is still alive for most people, or | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
frankly, they have made up their minds? I think it has shifted. There | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
will, of course, be intransigent sceptics, but I think it is 's | :23:59. | :24:06. | |
switching. It is hitting our bank balance in terms of higher water | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
bills, high energy prices, higher insurance rates, and so on. But it | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
would hit as the other way, wouldn't it? The alternative argument is that | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
similar things being suggested would limit our to grow the economy and | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
hitters in the long-term as well. I don't think that has been | :24:24. | :24:25. | |
articulated the popular consciousness. A great deal of the | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
developing world, because what you are effectively saying in this | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
proposed climate change legislation is, the developing world must not be | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
allowed to become as rich and as comfortable and as well provided for | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
as the already developed world has been for a generation or two. That | :24:45. | :24:54. | |
is a very serious thing. That is the problem, because I think the | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
developed world needs to make the sacrifice. They are ready at an | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
advanced stage of development, and their economies are in far better | :25:02. | :25:03. | |
shape than the developing world. Yes, countries the size of China and | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
India do have to make it isn't sacrifice, but they are at a | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
developing stage, and therefore they cannot be expected to make the same | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
sacrifice as the developed nations. I think quite a lot of Chinese | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
commentators accent that they would be very badly hit by some of these, | :25:20. | :25:28. | |
disproportionately, perhaps, as Wilson areas of India and | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
Bangladesh. Indeed, and therefore countries like India and China have | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
to take into account that they must slow down certain processes, whether | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
that is emissions, any other control that they can bring about, where | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
deforestation has taken place, you read plants trees there, and there | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
are many things that can be done. The thing is, of course, take time | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
to really Germany, but at the same time, I think the West, and by that | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
I mean the first world, have to make a slightly greater sacrifice. We | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
will have to leave it there. We will be back next week at the same time. | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
You can comment on the programme on Twitter. Goodbye. | :26:05. | :26:32. | |
Hello. The weather continues to make headlines. We have seen the latest | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
in a string of big storms to affect the UK, and today, we have an amber | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
warning in force from The Met Office. That is what stronger Nam | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
June wins for many places. An area of low pressure, and you can see to | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
the south of it, tight as bars, bringing us a southerly or | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
south-westerly gale through the course of the day. They could be | :26:55. | :26:56. | |
quite | :26:57. | :26:57. |