05/07/2014 Dateline London

Hello, and welcome to Dateline London.

Terror warnings about the threat from Al`Qaeda offshoots.

The murders of teenage Palestinian and Israeli boys.

And the European Court of Human Rights says it is legal

for France to ban the full veil known as the niqab.

Jeffrey Kofman who is an American writer and broadcaster.

Nesrine Malik who's a Sudanese journalist.

More threats and potentially more sophisticated

bomb plots from Islamic terrorist groups against American, European

What do we make of the threat from Al`Qaeda offshoots, and from the

lawlessness now in vast areas of Syria, Iraq, Yemen and other places?

A big American holiday, a day before, we are told America could be

a target. After 9/11 when we had the security

alerts in the US, George Bush's colour`coded warning system. You got

a sense that this system was being elevated when they needed to

galvanise public opinion. I think there is an innate suspicion about

these threats. But you can't afford to be cavalier. Because we have seen

it happen. What has struck me is I supposed to

do about this? Am I supposed to not fly? Everyone says to continue as

normal. What are we going to do? Get on board an hour earlier, bring

something to read. How do you process this kind of information?

How do you question the authorities when they tell us this is real, and

how do we know it is not just fear mongering? How do they know? We know

there is a threat and it is constant. Do we elevate it or is

this chatter picked up from Yemen? The root of all this is that there

are areas of the world which are outside the control of any kind of

Government, which seem to be expanding. We have seen the threat

from Isis. Some groups are technologically becoming more

sophisticated with the kinds of expenses they are using. There is

clearly a real threat. Again, what are we supposed to do?

I would agree. There is a real threat, but it is diffused, and not

easily pinpointed. The one person being talked about is the Saudi

bomber turned into a James Bond type figure, thought to be creating more

innovative ways to insert bombs into people, stitch them into bodies, his

bombers in one of the most deadly bombers in one of the most deadly

attacks in Saudi Arabia. OK, you have a name. But if you dig

deeper, there is very little connection between this suspect, and

any kind of threat crossing that. He is a Saudi. Crossing into Yemen,

then being brought back to Europe via passport holders, it is quite a

long line of association between long line of association between

that and him. The point about who do you trust?

When I read about him, I thought, is this the enemy of the week club? It

is a huge problem but a diffuse problem, of nameless people we have

never heard of, perhaps people who are British who have gone to this

region. To personalise it with one person seems beside the point.

It gets the story in the newspapers and in the UK in particular, you get

some momentum behind the Government stance that there is increasing but

accreditation when people go to fight in Syria. Which I have always

found unconvincing. When you get three people saying we won't return

to the UK until the black flag of Islam is flying over Downing Street.

men are going to fight not men are going to fight not

associated groups but with other associated groups but with other

rebel groups, and there are others, particularly in Syria. And I think

that has never been convincing to me that there is this increased threat

to the UK because of a handful of fighters who have gone overseas. But

this gives it far more legitimacy. This latest warning is coming from

the US saying if you guys `` saying you have to tighten up your security

at airports. 500 young jihadists from Britain

currently fighting in Syria, it evokes fears. At the same time,

these terror alerts mean people do feel, what is going on? It is a

diffused feeling. And what is happening on social media is scary.

You see these young guys, terrorist groups, using social media so well.

They are making headlines. Flying the black flag over Whitehall. They

are working with headlines as much as governments are doing it.

Not just an information war but a story telling war. Yes, this is

attractive to young men. Donald? I have nothing original to

add to the very good things which have been said. We should not

forget, I hesitate to say the number one problem in the world, but the

problem at the moment is fundamentally in the rock. This is a

very diffused picture `` Iraq. What is certainly there is a crisis with

global implications. Isis itself, is it going to break away from

Al`Qaeda? This is a monolithic picture.

It is not easy to say. Do you have any thoughts as to why some young

British or French people go to these areas? Clearly there are some people

who want to work for charities. Do you have any idea what is the

trigger to radicalisation? Some people say it is Western foreign

policy, or distaste for the Western way of life, women go to nightclubs,

pubs. It is a condemnation of those

things. Primarily, it is a sense of marginalisation within the UK. A lot

of grievances. You have to realise there are also ethnic minorities

which become associated with religion.

The third thing which I think is very important in terms of why

people go to these countries, and by these groups are developing, is

because of a strong narrative. The secular bubbles and actually

governments, foreign policy in the West, has failed to create a

narrative that fails to poke `` fails to oppose the one`man

dictator. These young guys from Britain, they

have a sense of purpose. It was an arrogant video. That came through to

me. The point about being marginalised.

One of these guys had an offer from four British universities to Saudi

medicine `` study. I am not sure they are marginalised. They could

make their life very well in the UK. Talking to the former head of MI5

who said the important thing is this is not mindless terrorism, it may be

horrific, but a lot of these people are well`qualified and smart.

As someone who moved here four years ago, there is an inherent Islam

phobia in the media. Whether you are educated not as a young Muslim man,

you that. We'll be hearing later about the banning of the niqab in

France. It is interrelated. We are not full members of European society

which leads to disenfranchisement. That is definitely Shoe `` true.

There is a contradiction here. Specifically, the Government worries

about young people going to Syria to fight. This isn't like Iraq. The

West wanted to get rid of Assad. I am not clear that these people are

necessarily going to come back and become terrorists in the UK.

People have different motivations in different places.

There is a report the UK Government had intelligence which showed some

hypocrisy... Hypocrisy, I am shocked!

The biblical law of an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.

And yet the apparently endless struggle between Israelis

and Palestinians took on a particularly horrific character this

week, with the murder of teenage boys, plus rocket attacks from the

Palestinians, and bombing raids and repression from the

Israelis. Is there really no end to the cycle of attacks, reprisals,

You covered this for ages. It comes back and comes back.

That is a point worth making. At a time when media took their eye off

the Israeli`Palestinian issue. People were talking about the Arab

Spring. It always comes back. It is still the central problem for the

Middle East. This is obviously a much tense

period than at any time since the end of the second intifada. And you

see some of these aspects of cycles of vengeance and retaliation.

Because so much of the so`called peace process has been really shown

to be so futile, I am surprised to find myself saying that, actually,

it is a pity at the moment that there is nothing going on

diplomatically, because I think that adds to this feeling that the

tension may explode into something much worse. But what the immediate

answer is, it looks very much as if Hamas, who have been blamed with not

absolutely convincing public evidence for the appalling killing

of these three teenage boys, certainly do not want a full scale

connotation in Gaza. One hopes Israel doesn't either because it is

not in their interest. What you make of the Palestinian

argument which goes, this is the longest occupation in modern times,

it will keep happening. This is the core of the problem.

Rightly, I think, we blame Israel for being resistant to that analysis

which is very hard to contradict. I also think the US and European

powers also to some extent share some of the blame for this. In that

they have still been reluctant, I think, to apply more pressure on

Israel. For example, to negotiate seriously and productively with

easily the most moderate and violence eschewing posting a leader

we have had or may ever have again. That said, Stephanie, the Israeli

argument is, if that is true, they should not be in bed with Hamas, we

cannot deal with a comment of which Hamas is a part.

You have to see the wider context, what is happening in Syria and in

this region. It is a polarised society in Israel. If you look at

the central media, there were amazing appeals from Israeli people

saying things like, Patriots against Arabs is not racism. In a situation

which is very tense already. The Israeli Government is explicit of

how to deal with the situation. Can I pick up your point briefly. It

is true that Israelis are very unhappy about the coalition with

Hamas. The fact is they weren't doing very much serious negotiation

while there was no relationship. We should not forget about that.

What has happened over the past week, in my lifetime, has not

happened before in a sense that it has concentrated the fears of both

communities. You see bombings and assaults but the kidnapping of

children I think has tapped into something really visible in the Arab

committee and Israeli community. There is a good article in the

Guardian about how the kidnapping of these boys and young soldiers brings

up the ghosts of the affair that Jews will be spirited away in the

middle of the night. That unleashes a genie that even the Israeli

Government cannot control. There is a view outside of Israel that the

Israeli Government is more hard line that its people. It's people love

peace and bond negotiation. The garment is run by right wing

scaremongers. In this case, there has been a visceral Jewish fear that

has bubbled up in society. for your children, you question

everything. Exactly. Even though that may be flanking the Israeli

government in terms of its attitude, it will ultimately question the

Israeli government position on settlement. People are asking what

the hell three boys were doing hiking in the middle of the night.

Even if there is a peace process, these the `` these two things

rubbing together will have a tender effect. Donald made the point that

this is the central conflict around which so much rests in the Middle

East. I think what is very frightening about the kidnapping and

the murder is that you do not need to have a vast organisation to do

this. One loose cannon, one idiot on either side can do this to the next

teenage boy and simply inflame passions more. That is what is very

frightening. It may not be Hamas. It may be some vigilantes. And yet they

now know that they have the leverage to ramp up the tensions and

potentially create something. If we see this happen again on one side or

the other in the next week or two, it is frightening to think what

could happen. That has always been a problem. Both sides have been

trapped by the atrocities. There will always be people who do not

want peace. They want to win. That means perhaps more kids being

killed. You know, I think what we were just talking about, only in

extreme fringe on both sides want to see an intifada. The challenge for

the leaders on both sides is to somehow navigate what has happened

and what is going to happen and not see this explode. A decision by the

European Court of Human Rights to a poll difference law banning the

niqab adopted by a minority of Muslims in, was quite clear this was

not an issue of freedom of expression or religion. It is about

the French state taking a view on people who hid their identities.

What do we make of this decision and could result in bands in other

countries? In terms of this ban, how do you view that? I really wish

people spent as much time as they do on the burka, on immigration. There

is so much attention paid to this topic. It is completely

disproportionate. And hence I think linked to not security measures but

an anti immigration and anti`Islam view in Europe. Not always. I think

there are legitimate concerns about identity and being able to show your

face. But I think the disproportionate focus and political

machine that always seems to be working in France... This suggests

this is that governments can show they are strong on immigration. The

burka is the easiest way to do it do it because it is visible, it is

there. It is easy to hide concerns, or`Islamic `` Islamophobia

conditions. Governments have been using the burka as a proxy for

posturing on immigration. I completely agree. What is diffident

about this issue is that on an intellectual level you can argue for

freedom of religion on one side and for the rights of women and social

cohesion on another. I think it has become a lightning rod for the Islam

phobia we talked about earlier. I think you are going to see that here

in the UK there are no laws. UKIP have suggested it would be a good

idea. If you look at the newspapers. Today people are calling for it. Now

the European Court giving a sanction to the French law simply unleashes

this. We saw in the Netherlands and Denmark that people pushing for this

are not talking about higher values. They are anti immigrant, anti`Muslim

people. It is not only in France, of course, but also in Belgium. I lived

in Belgium when it was banned. The headlines were amazing. There were a

handful of women targeted. A very small minority within a minority

community. Absolutely. What is happening now in Germany, Austria

and Switzerland are right`wing nationalist parties going out saying

they wanted to. The Swiss National party has said they would have a

referendum next work `` next year. It is quite likely you will see this

all over Europe. I agree with most of what has been said. Two things

struck me about this. One is that it is an odd thing for people in

Britain who are also very agitated about the niqab that the European

Court of Human Rights, which most sane people absolutely hate, has

vindicated this decision. The other thing I think is exactly that. If

Western Liberal Democrat values are forced upon the British residential

population, I would much rather be concerned with things like forced

marriages, female genital mutilation, than this thing. The

main thing is that it is so visible. It is a very easy thing to show your

credentials on immigration. To play devil's Advocate, it is also a

symbol of people who have no desire to fit in with the broad cultural

norms of society. That is part of the problem, isn't it? I understand

it `` as I understand it, the particular woman in France who

brought the original case, which the European Court of Human Rights have

rejected, said she did not want to wear it all the time. She was

willing to take it off when going to see a doctor or in the court. That

does not bother me. I guess maybe I'm just not so moved by this

question. I don't find it so offensive. There was an argument

when there were anti`Semitic attacks in the early 20th century in the UK

that Jews were visible. They worst goal caps, especially the more

Conservative ones. `` they wore skullcaps. They began to secularise

themselves appearance was because they felt they were easy to target.

Jews still, in areas in London, live like that. There are quite a few

anti`Semitic attacks. There is not a general anti`Semitism in the water

as there is Islamophobia. That is an interesting point. There are a lot

of parallels between anti`Semitism historically and Islamophobia. The

perceived threat of a particular minority. What can we do about it?

The results of that our alienation and the results of that out that the

minority will go off to fight in Syria, it is a problem for all of

us. Not just a problem for the Muslim community. Absolutely. It is

a problem for mainstream society. It is something politicians have been

quite craven on. Quite cowardly. They have played to the gallery.

Especially with UKIP rising. I think it is something that the media is

responsible for because they were amplified. The politicians are

responsible for because it is an easy win. It is everybody's

responsibility to stand back and say, it is literally a handful of

women. And also, who is harmed by it? Is anybody harmed by it? They

claim to help those women, that they can live a free life. What is the

result? Women will stay at home. They will not go out at all. When

Jacques Chirac, a decade ago, introduced a ban on headscarves, I

remember thinking it was really odd. The EU was saying to Turkey that

having a headscarf, being able to wear a headscarf in highly secular

Turkey, is a symbol of freedom of expression. There is another

contradiction. Think it is no coincidence that the three topics we

have addressed to day, when we talk about Iraq and terrorism at the

airports, the Israeli Arab conflict, and we talk about this, the variety

challenge of time is figuring out a way for Western culture and Islamic

to live, to coexist without conflict. All three of these topics

ultimately come down to that. Thank you all very much. That is it for

dateline London this week. We're back next week at the same time.

Join us then. You can comment on the programme on Twitter. Thank you for

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