09/04/2016 Dateline London

Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

The Panama Papers - yet another reason to suspect

there is one rule for the super-rich and another rule for

Plus: Egypt's dirty war against Islamism.

And the people-swap between Greece and Turkey.

My guests today are: Mina Al-Oraibi, the Middle East writer.

Abdallah Homouda, who is an Egyptian writer.

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, the journalist and columnist.

And Michael Goldfarb of Politico Europe.

From Bradley - now Chelsea - Manning and Wikileaks,

to Edward Snowden, to the unnamed supposed whistle-blower

behind the Panama Papers, we have learned a great deal more

about the most powerful people and organisations in the world

So how significant is the leak of tax files from Mossack Fonseca?

And do we really believe this was the work of a whistle-blower,

or perhaps an intelligence organisation which decided to call

time on some of the world's most unsavoury political leaders?

And right from the start we need to say for legal reasons

that nobody, anywhere, ever on planet Earth has ever done

That we have that over with, what is everyone think? There is nothing

unlawful about this. Why has this hit a chord with people

more than the likes of WikiLeaks or Edward Snowden. It has set a chord

with many people, why is that? We have always lived in a very

un-dash-mac unequal Bob weather is one type of behaviour for the elite.

And arrest for hours. -- but the inequalities have become so massive

that there is a big feeling amongst everybody in the world, whether it

is the peasant in the pillage of Africa or here in London, which has

some of the richest people in the world, things are not fair, things

are not right, and the basic question is, lawful or unlawful, why

do you need a secret taxi thing? Someone please answer that question.

Tell me those of you who have these accounts, why do you need them?

I think you are looking at the wrong people around here!

They keep on telling us they have done nothing wrong. We have had

statements from our honourable Prime Minister who said he paid his taxes.

It might not be the tax, but why do you need it? If there is no gain

attached to it? You know quite a bit about Anna,

some people believe that that is a place that people put their money

because Luxembourg is not a good enough taxis or other places. There

has always been something funny about what has been going on there.

That is true, but on the set of leaks, it is not clear why now and

with Edward Snowden, we knew it took a few weeks to find out about

Chelsea Manning. When she released all of these military files from the

US Army. So I am not sure. And in another way, what is interesting

about these is that it is not anything new, it simply confirms...

Who did not know? What newspaper has not had an article about Putin's

cronies, for example, enriching themselves at the expense of the

Russian people? Who has not known about a variety of other...

Iceland's dodgy bank dealings. Then begin to ask who is benefiting from

this week? That is what I find interesting. How quickly a lot of

people... CIE!

You could say that but interestingly there was a blogger called Brookings

who said yesterday this has the hallmarks of a Kremlin operation. In

other words, that... There are not a lot of American

names in there, for example, and a lot of people who are not flavour of

the month with the US. The Chinese leadership and the Russian

leadership, they are all over the news.

One man who is close to the leadership in Syria was mentioned.

America is full of states where you can incorporate a secret. Delaware,

the home state of the Vice President Joe Biden has hundreds of thousands

of corporations registered there, many of them shell corporations,

similar to the likes of Panama. Wyoming, home to former Vice

President Dick Cheney. All of these things add up. We expect to see some

American names eventually, 2.4 TB, but nevertheless, the Americans do

not have to go offshore. Leads the big question, who benefits from this

week? That has not been made clear five days later.

It is a great journalistic scoop. That is correct. It comes from elite

that we do not know the source. That is one of the weaknesses from a

journalistic story. The way that they have gone through the

documents, WikiLeaks with everything online. But the stories have been

gathered together to the great credit of different media

organisations. Yes, it could they go through the

process of cotton people and asking them if they did this?

Exactly, no one is questioning how accurate these documents and figures

in are. You mentioned the man at the heart of the Syrian regime, he is

able to continue to have accounts at a well-known bank and has had this

company that is in Panama. But there has been a Foreign Office official

that has verified the identity of this person even though he has

sanctions on him. Speaking to a regular Syrian in London trying to

open up a bank account trying to pay their TV licence or their direct

debit, they are unable to do that. That is the point of this being

unfair. The taxes are not fair, absolutely, multinational companies

get away with paying hardly any tax, we know that. The difficulty of

banking today, financial literacy is at its lowest. Trying to fill a tax

Dr Read at the moment is so difficult for the ordinary person

and this is the point, if you are a regular Syrian or Iraqi 's, when

they were sanctions on the people of Iraq under Saddam Hussein, that is

starting now and -- that is 13 years now and that has been taken out, he

could not speak to Iraqis who had a regular bike again. The same for the

servings. Especially when their leader is literally able to get away

with murder. Because the world has opened up with

the new technology as well. This is happening at a time when good and

bad with accurate and inaccurate information. I will now mention our

Prime Minister because we have not mentioned him, the Right Honourable

David Cameron. I am not telling you that he has done anything wrong or

broken. He has said he has paid his taxes. In 2013, he said to the

president of the duping council, lay-off offshore accounts, do not

touch them. Why, why would you not want to stop this secrecy? The EU

has a lot of problems but one of the things that is trying to do is to

sort out bandit Ray in banking and offshore accounts. Who is still

against this? Our Prime Minister. It leaves you feeling and that is not

good. Maybe I suggest that one of the

reasons why this has touched so many people is that the scandal is not

that which is illegal, the scandal is that which is legal and

acceptable or accepted, I should say.

We have been living under a system which distinguishes tax avoidance

from tax aviation and it was legal when you avoided taxes but not

evading taxes. Off-shore accounts have been looked at when the

Treasury felt the pinch of the financial crisis, but we have been

speaking about that since 2008 and 2009, we acted in 2013, this is the

last Revelation, why did it take them that long for this too, and,

especially with the fighting with any financial sector, the people who

have money, to who to expose and how to expose, this is still heading.

There are so many questions that remain unanswered. I am grateful

that you mentioned more Bharat. There is a lot of money for the

Egyptian people that must be traced. -- more Bharat.

I do wonder if this is an assault on the form itself, Mossack Fonseca.

The third-largest form of its kind dealing with these accounts. To

think that it is the thought largest, that is even more

frightening. It is the two law firms that are making these kinds of

secret accounts. Larger than Mossack Fonseca. It does seem to be that

this will form itself could have been the target of the week. Who

will now cost them as a massive asset form with secret financial

information? Then you see, is there a state actor involved? See the CIA.

Or is it something else? These are the questions that we await who Deep

Throat might be in this one. Where do you think it will go from

here? One of the discussions about Brexit

this entry. One of the applications of this is that from any of these

states, it is not entirely sovereign when it comes to getting the tax

from people who are resident in the company of people can move and leave

money offshore legally as we continue to see. The notion of

sovereignty when you are dealing with the super wealthy of the world

is gone. The problem is that so many heads of

governments and state are involved in this that actually our

sovereignty as people, the state, it is undermined by the governments.

That is the point that these leaks have really raised. How can I trust

the head of government to actually carry out due diligence and try to

get taxes put into the system when they are the ones who are leading

the tax avoidance and many of these countries?

Again, the fundamental question is, why do you need these offshore

account if you are not evading or avoiding tax? What is the purpose?

Is it because the banknotes last better in Panama than they would in

the saves in London? What is it about it?

It is electronic! The thing that is really going to

affect democracy itself, wherever you are looking at it is trust. We

will not trust our leaders and we will not participate because people

will come to believe, as they are already doing so, what is the point?

There is this elite, the rich people and the politicians are in it

together. That is an unfair description but that is what will

happen. People who come from undemocratic

countries have met this with a shrug and just said, yeah.

Let us move on. The case of an Italian

student Giulio Regeni - tortured and murdered in Cairo -

has reminded the rest of the world of the disappearances of Egyptians

and numerous allegations Is the regime of President Sisi

countering Islamist terror with its own dirty war

against opponents and critics? There is no doubt a terrible problem

in the likes of Sinai, and we have seen attacks on officials in Cairo

and so on. Is there a dirty war going on?

Any war is dirty. To make the dog ate scores of to this war is not

fair. -- to make the dirty exclusive to this war. This is a human crisis.

It is not acceptable at all. What happened to President Cisse is part

of an orchestrated act and I am not happy with that performance of the

security forces in Egypt and the police by the way. Some of their

acts are the legacy of Mubarak. What happened in this case was, we take

it separate from the whole context. We forget that there was an

explosion near the Italian Embassy in Cairo on the 11th of July 2015.

After that, the Italian Foreign Minister himself, he went to Cairo

and said, we will not be intimidated. After that, this

unfortunate guy was kidnapped, tortured and killed. There is an

orchestrated campaign outside the country to try and implicate.

Certain media organisations have been set up to pass the word to each

other in order to try to isolate Egypt as much as possible. They

failed to do this when President Sisi came to the UK and the Saudi

king is in Cairo. The body of that unfortunate man

appeared in Cairo on the same day a minister was arriving. Why did we

not put into the bigger picture? There is an enemy who wanted to

isolate Egypt, attacked two resin and Gildernew start this country.

It is also true that there is a dirty war going on as you have

acknowledged with people disappearing and being beaten up,

all sorts of nasty things happening to people.

That is true and it is unfortunate. The case of that man that you

discuss, it is a human life and the young man who was kidnapped and

tortured. It sheds a light on the Egyptians who are suffering similar

feats, unfortunately. The point is that the Security Services actually

have a lot to answer for because they are not providing CCTV footage

that was requested. They are not coming clean. If a state does not

have anything to hide, they would actually help themselves to provide

more evidence and that has been a real concern for the Italians. In

terms of the Egyptians, there have been 1800 documented disappearances

and Egypt on the last year. Nobody knows why. We have to stand up and

say that if you want to defend Egypt and that is something I believe that

is important for the entire Arab world but for the world, to have a

strong and stable Egypt, you have to make sure that these people are

protected. We have 80 -- detainees are not being tried, and not only in

Egypt. It is important that the government

and the president recognised that running a second Army is different

from running a decadent state with corruption everywhere. I mean, this

is extremely important for him to realise and four other Egyptians to

play an active part in trying to feel, to bring some aspiration, some

aspirational factor to rebuilding the country.

This is about how important Egypt is and The Troubles it has. As well as

the difficulties. It is important for you,

particularly you, not to say that it is very unfair that we are picking

on Egypt, it is happening in other countries. That is like telling us

that a man is beating up his wife but other men beat up their wives.

To do it should mean so much and I will tell you why. President Sisi in

my view, and his inner circle, including those who are torturing...

I have friends whose relatives have been stuck in prison for writing a

blog. OK? We talk about Saudi Arabia and what it does, they do not know

what has happened to these young people who are idealists. The fact

that we honoured President Sisi makes us complicit because he and

what is happening reminds me of the old state in South America, where

people disappeared, torture was the norm. It is becoming normal in Egypt

and it is not someone else doing it. Perhaps there are others doing it

but President Sisi is doing it and estate is doing it.

I think you are very hard under the circumstances. I see things in Egypt

but I thank you for trying hard to make Egypt is subject of a higher

standard. Michael, the counterargument to this

is there are worse things than President Sisi. We see those in

Serbia and Iraq. Just next door in Libya. This is

what is allowing this to happen. Unfortunately. I had not thought

much about the Argentine connection until the numbers came out. It does

sound like a dirty war. Someday there will be the grandmothers of

Tahrir Square parading around and demanded a future government and an

account of what happened. Sadly, whatever we see on this programme

about the grotesque human rights abuses that are going on currently

in Egypt, to the west, to which Egypt is still somewhat attached and

certainly the King is visiting this weekend, Saudi Arabia is attached.

They appear to be disintegrating and they have said, if we can have this

-- stability in Egypt, this is comparatively small price and it is

unfortunate but Matt I am not trying to be over cynical, I am waiting for

some reporter in America to ask Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State,

basically, she delivered a phone call to Mubarak and telling him his

time is up. I am waiting for someone to ask her what she thinks is going

on in Egypt and watching things about the President Sisi's

government's abuses. No more thing to do it because in America they do

not pay attention. Final word.

I think it is extremely important to recognise the fact that Egypt has

fallen into a trap laid down by the Muslim Brotherhood and their

affiliates to make it look military, or present, whatever you like to

call it. There are blogs which have to be put right. There are people

who were put in prison and the process is not that responsive.

There are problems which have to be dealt with but please understand it

in the Egyptian context, the situation is very difficult, the

people feel limited in their vision and this is wrong and must be

addressed. OK, let us move on.

When the Ottoman Empire collapsed in the aftermath

of the First World War, Greeks and Turks were shipped

in opposite directions across the eastern Mediterranean.

A hundred years on, our own humanitarian

catastrophe involves Greece, the EU and Turkey shipping refugees

or migrants across the same stretch of water in an attempt at imposing

I mean, it was interesting if the figures are correct, that most of

those who were shipped out of Europe to Turkey or from Pakistan, did not

presumably fall into the category of Syrian asylum seekers and refugees.

That is correct. So far the nationalities have been non-Syrians,

unfortunately what is now happening again is that we are not looking at

how we are treating people as humans, we are going to their

passports and looking at the political realities between each

deal that struck. You have Syrians who will be taken to Europe in an

orderly fashion which is the correct way of doing this. Those that have

come in any legal matter rather than them being illegal, they will be

shipped back to Turkey. The talks will take these people. Those that

are Syrian are being put in refugee camps to be processed later. Some

will be an someone not. Those not Syrian will be deported to the

different countries. Each story and person is a common life, especially

when you are talking about unaccompanied children, some women

and, of course, the traffickers and smugglers still get their money and

are pushing them and telling them they can make it.

They will double their money because they think that some people will try

to same thing again. Some Syrian papers are also being

forged, you pretend to be Syrian hoping you can come in. This is not

a solution. As you said, 100 years ago people were being put on board

and being shifted back and forth. Certain parts of the Arab world

weather in Syria or Iraq at the moment, you have ethnic cleansing

happening because people want to redraw borders to suit them.

I wonder about your point about Egypt is true here also which is

that the choice is between order, not very good but it kind of

attempted order, or chaos, is that the choice?

The choice is even more than that. The Turkish Prime Minister is acting

as a contractor for the European Union to send people back so that

Europe does not feel the heat of the problem and I think, if I may draw a

picture, it is like someone trying to keep the lid over a boiled pot,

which is going to explode at some point of the roots of the problems

are not dealt with. This is where I am just as hard on

the European Union and on Britain that these are human beings. They

said to us after the Second World War, never again. Human life will be

respected, there will be a human rights degree. That people sign up

to the refugee treaties and they are breaking international law

absolutely without anybody telling them," hey, guys, this is Europe,

you must live by her own rules." But you have to have rules and they

have not got them, which is difficult.

No, they have rules. Some people are jumping on the ships for economic

futures. Abe to tell them that what Europeans did over centuries, which

is to go to different places and actually sometimes destroy the local

populations in order to make their fortunes, that they had the right to

do it and people from parts of Pakistan with the Taliban have come

in to not have that right or territory? So Syrians in a strange

way have some public sympathy and quite rightly. But what about every

clear? -- in a chair? Overnight there were reports of

Afghans in Greece getting into fights and violence with Syrians

because Syrians were being processed but the strong possibility of being

given refugees that is. But the Afghans have already trekked from

Afghanistan through Iran and overthrew the mountains into Turkey

and they are being shipped back or being press-ganged as we learned

this week, and fighting in Serbia on behalf of the region because it is

the only be that they can return home or to earn money. I think this

will unravel because of the mess. -- Syria. It will continue to be a mess

and there is enough international region to stop what is happening in

Syria. It will have to be imposed from outside and that will stop the

refugee outflow. That is when we can have a solution.

Just put the hard-headed point is this, that there is no end to this.

This will be the story for perhaps the next 25 years, not with the

sectarian problems and the fighting, but also with climate change and

other things and four Syrians today, it will be someone else tomorrow.

We have travel and technology which allows people to move more freely

than before. The identities and citizenships of people are shifting.

We have to look at it in a different light. The fact that much of the

discussion is about Brexit or freedom of movement, who do you want

coming into Britain? No one wants to tackle it seriously, they will look

at one citizen because of their passport, rather than the value of

that country, counts more than someone else.

That's it for Dateline London for this week.

You can comment on the programme on Twitter @gavinesler

and if you are heavily involved in tax avoidance,