11/02/2017 Dateline London

Hello and welcome to Dateline London.

President Trump's travel ban ruled out by a court -

Mr Trump responds with "see you in court."

And Russian intervention in Libya - another tactical victory for Putin?

Abdel Bari Atwan, who is a writer and broadcaster on Arab affairs,

Yasmin Alibhai Brown, the author and commentator,

and Vincent Magombe, who is an African commentator.

President Trump's own nominee to the US Supreme Court was said

to have criticised the president over Mr Trump's attitude to judges -

It follows the court's decision to rule out the President's travel

ban on people from mostly Muslim countries, and further bitterness

between the President and some in Congress.

Are these teething troubles - or a sign of how the next four years

are likely to be in Washington - with the President attacking

the other pillars of the US Constitution?

Where do you think we are now? Well, I think, what happened this

week is reflective of the fact that Trump clearly has a hazy view of the

Constitution, and separation of powers, and the checks and balances

that are the hallmark of the US critical system. The appeals court

judges sent a strong message to him saying, you cannot invoke national

security concerns, do what everyone. Are these teething problems? To some

extent, there is some of that going on. Remember when he issued the

executive order on immigration, he did not have key appointments in

place, and the fact that he has now said that he is considering

rewriting the order and making it more narrow, that reflects the fact

that would suggest to me that Jeff Sessions has told him, this is too

risky, perhaps you need to dial it back, if you really want to make

sure to not lose this. But I think that the hallmarks of the Trump

presidency seem pretty clear, people who think that he is going to pivot

and become more presidential in his style and manner, they are going to

be left disappointed. His style is to attack, personally, people on

Twitter, judges, corporate executives. There is a real risk to

that, going forward. Not only is he tying himself very personally to

policy initiatives such as the immigration order, he cannot

distance from that or blame other advisers for its failure. But with

attacks on judges in his tweets, he seems to be parking blame at their

feet, for any possible future terrorist attack, which is very,

very dangerous going forward. No one should be surprised that this is how

he's carrying himself. This is how he ran his business for years. He

was extremely combative, confrontational and litigious as

well. I don't think this is going to change. The style will remain the

same, he may dial back and adopt more moderate positions. We have

seen him do so on certain foreign policy issues, supporting China,

Israel and so forth. But I don't think you're going to see a

different kind of Trump emerge. What do you think? How has this come

down in the Arab countries? The man is barely three weeks into

power, and he is creating problems everywhere. Seven Muslim countries,

it is pure racism. He picked the countries who never exported

terrorism to that part of the world. Honestly. It is amazing, only six

terrorist attacks actually happened in the United States from those

immigrants living in the United States will stop the second thing

is, contradiction. First he wanted Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states to

pay for the protection, American protection. Now he is phoning them

and saying, come with me and fight Iran. He wants to dismantle that

nuclear deal. Has that been going down quite well

in Saudi Arabia? The Saudis are focused on Iran, that is their

number one followed -- foreign policy.

He knows these Gulf state countries are very vulnerable. They were

always protected by the United States, Obama said, you have to

change your strategy, you have to depend on yourself and talk to Iran,

solve your problems by talking. We cannot have easy rates. I believe,

now with Trump, he is working into the hands and the agendas of Isis,

Al-Qaeda and other... Why'd you say that?

Because all the Muslims feel vulnerable, and they believe this

man actually is coming to attack Muslims and hate Muslims. To create

wars that part the world. He is unifying the Shia and the Sunni

against the United States. There was a division beforehand. Terrorism

used to be a Sunni trademark. He is actually now seeing Iran as a

terrorist state. For the first time he managed to unify the Muslim

terrorists, the Shia and the Sunni terrorists, to mobilise against the

United States. I won't tell you what I think of

Trump, I will tell you what Africans think of Trump. Ugandans, for

example. He seems to have some African blood, people have said to

me. I don't mean the cultures of Africa, that club of dictators in

Africa. There has been recently, Facebook, and video that went viral.

Trump here, video mean here. The Chirac media meme.

The way he used to speak, I am the greatest man on the Earth. This and

that. I am very good. There was actually an American satirical

programme, they did that come Harrison between Trump and African

dictators. -- come Harrison. And when I saw the Compas and, this is a

joke. But he is not a joke. No one has

seriously challenged his legitimacy. He may have been elected by the

American people, but what he is doing and how he's doing it, and I

can tell you that personally I believe that all the things he has

been seen, being a dictatorial type of person, look at what is happening

with the travel ban. I'm sure very soon he will discover that he cannot

do it, and he will retract. For example, following Isis on

social media. They are celebrating what Trump is seeing.

This is the American, we told you they hate us as Muslims, but you

never believed us. This is the proof.

You raise very important points, and I agree with you. It is not just

terrorists coming together, there was a time in the late 1970s and

early 80s when America was heated in so many parts of the world, when you

are burning the flags. He is taking America back to that place where

Americans will not be safe in the world. And because, all Muslims, of

whatever view, are feeling the heat. My goodness, we are the next dues,

if you like, of the century. They used to laugh about Idi Amin, like

they laugh about Trump, which is the biggest mistake. He got the judges

first, he hanged judges, then intellectuals, he systematically,

then the media, he systematically went for them. This is the modern

equivalent. If you are right, and people will

disputed, there will be viewers who disputed, but if you are right, then

creating that sense of division, it will work, because this is a

president, in makes periods, he did not really do anything in terms of

bringing the country together, in other words, what has worked very

well for him is defining and other people, the enemy abroad. That works

for Mr Trump. It works up to a certain accent, but

I think he has still got major battles ahead. What we have seen

this week is the constitution working, the judicial system has hit

back and drink in. The checks and balances are indeed working.

Including from his own Supreme Court nominee. That was astonishing,

wasn't it? He is clearly a judge who believes in the courts being

independent. There are theories about that, that

he knows that he needs to come out and distanced himself from what

Trump has done. In order to win confirmation. But he has done what

nominees have done before their confirmation hearings, make the

rounds, among senators, tried to allay fears, tried to reassure them.

Trump has denied that he has said this, he apparently told several

senators that he was disheartened and found Trump's comments

disheartening and demoralising. It is essential for him to distance

themselves in order to win approval in the Senate. However, Trump is

constantly undermining that, and disagreeing with him.

It is interesting in shocking that the Senate in Congress have been

much less effective in opposing Trump than have the people, the

judiciary, activists. I am so shocked by Paul Ryan. He

resisted his own nomination quite vocally. And now he is completely

supplicant of Trump. The issue of checks and balances is

very important for me because the African dictatorships I am talking

about, in Uganda, today the media is being hit, people have rigged

elections and so on. The judiciary cannot do it, the media cannot do

it, but in America you are blessed with the infrastructure and

democracy. I would like to talk about his

mobilisation against Iran. Obama and the other five countries, they

realised that the cost of war against Iran will be huge, so he

topped to the Iranians, and used pressure to reach this nuclear deal.

Now he is actually trying to provoke Iran, and you cannot see how the

Iranians are responding. They are people of pride, and the mothers are

mobilising. You are right. Obama managed to neutralise the Muslim

world vis-a-vis America. America was not heated drink Obama's two terms.

Trump is reviving this hatred among the Iranians, the Muslims, the

Africans, Latin American. He has dialled back his rhetoric on

Iran. He vowed on the campaign trail to rip up the deal with Iran, and

that does not seem to be happening. He has dialled back a bit.

He is imposing sanctions, economic sanctions against certain areas.

But the shocking thing was, I was in America in October before the

election, the number of Muslims who were backing Trump, shame on them.

33% of American Muslims backed this man.

It is a challenge, the other thing he presents as a challenge for

journalism. When you have got a president who basically says

terrorist attacks are not being reported, and the fact our that

everyone of those attacks as far as we can see were reported and given a

degree of interest by different media outlets, but they were

reported. How do you handle someone who says things which are clearly

not the case? There has been some talk about we

should not be televising these press conferences from Kelly Anne Conway

and Trump. We need to fact check them, and you cannot fact check them

as they are happening live. It is an incredibly different and difficult

position journalists are in. He has threatened them, there is? Will

there be space for the quest -- press corps in the White House. It

is the constant stream of alternative facts, it is posing new

challenges for all of us. And we must not remember the powers

behind Trump, Steve Bannon, his vice president, some of the dark forces

behind him are very well organised. The types of forces that supported

him, very radical, people were ready to damage. I would be more worried

about them than Trump himself. I think Trump will be cut short. I

don't think that he can really manage to intimidate totally the

judiciary. Even the media. I would be surprised if, in America

especially, the media is cold. We shall see.

Following western intervention in Libya -

led by Britain and France - the downfall of Colonel Gaddaffi

has produced not one but two Libyan governments.

Now Russia has chosen sides in the Libyan conflict,

and President Trump, who found time this week

to criticise the US department store chain Nordstrom

for dropping his daughter's clothing line,

has not yet found time to criticise President Putin.

Is this another potential victory for Russia?

Maybe you could tell us what is actually going on in Libya.

Six years ago, there was a state of euphoria in the West. We managed to

achieve a huge success. We toppled tyrant. We will make Libya as a

model of success in the Middle East. Six years, how has it been? Nobody

talks about the situation. The West created it in Libya.

Chaotic. It is chaotic.

And very dangerous. You have three governments, two

parliaments, three armies, militias, no security at all, everybody is

fighting everybody, half of the Libyan people emigrate either to

Tunisia or to Egypt. About 3 million of them, to look for safety. And a

decent way of life. The situation, the West decided to support

democracy, so-called democracy. The elected government never actually

had the teeth of the clues to impose its force there. There is one

general, and this man is the ex-colonel of Libya, he used to work

with Gaddafi and was part of his counsel. He defected, and he was

actually trained and sent back to fight Gaddafi topple Gaddafi. And he

tried to lunch a sort of military campaign from Chad. Now what is

happening, this general is backed by Egypt, by the United Arab Emirates,

and Russia. Why? He managed to secure the eastern part of Libya,

which is the wealthy part. And he managed to root out Isis from that

eastern part, and he controls about 80%, or 75% of Libyan oil export, it

is coming from that part. The West actually could not do anything, they

broke it and they cannot fix it. One thing. Now, one thing. Because

you have given us the anti-western analysis. I think it is time to look

at Russia. It really is time to look at Russia, what Russia has done in

Syria and is about to do in Libya, you have to absolutely focus.

Wait till a mention it! Unbelievable.

It is very interesting what Russia is doing.

The West went to Russia, Italy and Britain. They say to Russia, please

save us. We have illegal immigration, 2000 kilometres of the

seashore, Libyan territories in the Mediterranean, we cannot do

anything, please help us. Moscow invited a man who was received by

Putin, Sergey Lavrov, the First Minister, and he had a very fruitful

talk. Then they reach an agreement. First to curb all the immigration

from Libya, and also to work under the UN backed government of the

so-called National Accord government, and to be the leader of

the army. What does Russia get?

An American lease in Libya. You just have to study this man, and

some of us have been in Russia for ten years during Communist times, we

know who the KGB and Putin are. This man has succeeded in Syria, making

sure that the failure of the West is my game. He is doing exactly the

same template in Libya. What he has done is identify this general

Khalifa, and what he is doing is look, this man has the military

power, he is trying to promote him to become the real leader. The only

problem is, with Russia, he does not care the type of commotion, the same

template Syria, it does not matter whether the Syrian president is a

Democrat or anything like that. If he is a stubborn man.

If you look at it, if it is correct, he has cracked down on Isis, he will

stop or try to control made it -- migration. There are a lot of people

in Europe and will take on that great.

The standards by which this man operates should really worry all of

us. I totally agree, intervention in Libya and what we did in Iraq, but

it is time now to focus on actually this really dangerous and quite evil

presence in Putin. And what he did in Syria, what he has done to the

people of Syria with Assad is absolutely, it should be the focus

of good people. We are talking about Libya, not

Syria. Let me talk. The West went to Putin and he did not go to the West.

They say to him, come and save us in Libya, we made a mistake, please

save us. President Obama said, the gravest

mistake which I regret in my two terms, intervention in Libya. They

admit that they made mistakes. It was the British and French, who

were very proud of it at the time. Where does this leave us? The

argument has been, eight years of Obama, he was terrible. America

withdrew from the world stage, left this vacuum, Putin said thank you

very much, I can solve several problems, Italy, but I can do it.

Putin wants to re-establish Russia's dominance, political and military

positioning in the region. Russia lost billions of dollars in arms and

oil contracts in Libya after Gaddafi was ousted and killed. This is part

of Putin's effort to re-establish his geopolitical power in the

region. Whether or not Putin backing the general is going to stem the

flow of refugees, isn't it going to undermine the stability of the

country, the UN peace process, and leave Europe that the cold, because

Putin does not care about the flow of refugees into Europe, and neither

does Trump. And neither does the general.

He has been against European and UN attempt to have that migration and

position. But this is also where there is a

connection between Trump and Putin. They both seem to admire so-called

strongmen leaders, authoritarian people who they view as being able

to re-establish order where they see is chaotic regions. However, Trump

has not criticised Russia for this. He may not have too. He may not even

have to endorse what is happening, he could just turn a blind eye and

allow it to happen. The general himself talked about

Trump, and he said that, look, because of the war we are carrying

out against terrorism, in this region, I think Trump will

appreciate that we can work with him.

The centre of power is like that, you have a government in triply,

backed by Muslim Brotherhood,, and supported by cat or in Turkey. And

you have a government which has no power on the ground at all. The

Muslim Brotherhood supported government is about to set up a new

army, and in order to consolidate its power in the West. The problem

is, which we are facing, have to is a very clever man, I hate him

personally because of the Langley things, but anyway, what he is

doing, he used the immigration card to put pressure on the West, on

Britain, Italy France and the United States, saying look, you ignore me,

you don't recognise my services, my power, I will use this immigration

card against you. And he used it very well. After six years, they

throwing the towel, please come and help us.

We are to leave it there. That's it for

Dateline London for this week. You can comment on the programme

on Twitter @gavinesler. We're back next week

at the same time.